BCC Minutes 07/28/1981 W
--.-.---------------.-----.
-------.--
Naples, Florida, July 28, 1901
"
LET IT DE REMEMBERED, that the Board. of county Commissioners in
and for the County of Collier, and also acting as the governing
--
board(s) of such special districts as have been created according to
law and having conducted business herein, ~et on this date at 1130 P.M.
in Conference Session in Building -F- of the Courthouse Complex with
the following members present:
~.\
CH^IRMAN:
VICE CHAR 1M AN :
John A. pistor
cl1 fford Wenzel
c. R. -Russ- Wimer (1: 38 )
Mary-FrðnCes Kruse
Dav id C. Drown
ALSO PRESENT: Darlene Davidson, Deputy Clerk, Donald pickworth,
County Attorney¡ Irving Berzon, Utilities Manager, C. William Norman,
County ~ðnagerl Terry virta, Community Development 11ministrator¡ and,
Lee Layne, Flanner.
AGENDA
I. Report on proposed amendment to -ST- Ordin~nco by adding
language re TDR's to contiguous land and increasing land
area requirements for transfer to non-conti~uous lands.
,~
II. Report re amending zoning Ordinance by removing hotelS,
motels, ~pðrtmcnt hotels, and time share facilities from
permitted principle uses and structures and placing them
under permitted provisional uses and structures re -RT-,
-rvn- and -GRC- Districts.
" Page 1
','
'OOK 062 PACE,529
----------------..
----------------
-----------------------------------
aOOK 062 PACE 530
July 28, 1981
DISCUSSION REGARDING PROPOSED ·ST- AND -TDR- ORDIN~NCE - ST~FF DIRECTED
TO UNDERTAKE FURTIIER STUDY OF PRESENT ·ST- LANDS RE APPROPRI~TENESS.OF
OVERLAY, STUDY APPROPRIATENESS OF ZONING BASED ON LAND USE, INCORPORATE
TRANSfER OF LAND WITII DEED RESTRICTION RE PRESERVATION FOR ~LL TDR'S
Community Development Administrator Terry virta referred to the
Executive Summary, dated 6/6/81, which was originally submitted as part
of the 7/l~/8l agenda package. He outlined the contents therof,
regarding the Bee direction to redraft the Zoning Ordinance relative to
TDR's and to include a different assignment of same for contiguous and
non-contiguous lands. lie said that it was the consensus of the Board
during the workshop of May 19, 1981 that the staff consider additional
chang~s to ·ST" land TOR's. He said that the proposed changes include
allowing for transfers to contiguous lands on a one-to-one basis with
.ST" lðnds used as part of the open space of the overall development
and the transfer of non-contiguous lands on the basis of 1/2 of a unit
for eÐch 10 acres of "ST" land with the "ST· land be~ng deeded to the
County along with any minernl rights. He said an additional change is
to limit the period for transfers to two years.
Mr. Virta aaid that the question still needs to ~e addressed
related to the mineral rights and he added that he has not heard the
results of an investigation by the County Attorney regarding tho
legalities of mandating the dedication of these right~ as part of the
TOR process.
. * .
Commissioner wimer joined the meeting in progress - Times 1:38 P.M.
. ~ .
, . .', ,'~
Page 2
.- -------------------------------
----------- ----------------- -----
July 28, 1981
There was a lengthy discussion regarding ownership of mineral
rights and the need to transfer them to the County when they apply to
land involved in the TOR process, during which Commissioner wenzel
stated that he believes that if a person owns the mineral rights, then
he should be required to transfer them along with the land that is the
subject of tho TDR process. Mr. Virta stated that this brings up the
possibility of someone who owns the mineral rights and the surface land
selling the mineral rights prior to the TDR process being initiated.
County Attorney pickworth agreed, saying that as a practical matter, he
is not sure the County has to worry about obtaining the mineral rights
in respect to the purpose that the County is trying to accomplish with
the TOR process relating to "ST" lands. He said that, certainly, if a
person owns the mineral rights, then, tney ought to transfer them to
the County in addition to the surface ownership of that land.
Also discussed was the possibility of only allowing TOR's for land
that is suitable for development. Commissioner Kruse pointed out that
if the purpose of the TOR process is for the County to rLcscrve lands
that might otherwise be developed, then, why offcr TDR's to ·ST" land
at all. Mr. Virta stated that the ·ST" overlay does not mean that land
cannot be developed, and that under certain circumstances, it can be.
Another point of view discussed was the retenticn of mineral
rights for the purpose of ùrilling for oil, etc., and that this would
not necessarily have to equate with disturbing the land, because oil
resources can be ta pped through offset or slant drilling, as outlined
by Commissioner Kruse. She sald that the intent of the TOR process has
to be defined clearly, and that the Bo a r d has to decide if its interest
Page 3
&OOK 062 PACE 531'
_------:----------------------------. . I
lies in the preservation ot the land or tho oil/minerals under it.
----------~-----~
&;~062 -;.cE532---------- July 28. 1981 I
County Attorney Pickworth outlined the relative criteria upon
which an owner of mineral rights can disturb the land which lies above
a mineral find, and he explained that the incident ownership of mineral
rights supercedes surface ownership.
Certain possible inequities regarding the mandDting of transfer of
oil and mineral rights to the the County was discussed as well as the
County Attorney's explðnation that the surface ownor is giving up hie
right to develop that 1Dnd in roturn for development rights elsewhere,
and, the mineral rights owner is not going to get anything. Also, that
the County hðs contributed to the creation of a "false· market for the'
TOR's of ·ST· land by inititating the relevant Ordinance was discussed,
during which Commissioner Wenzel said that "ST" land is currently taxed
on the basis of $50 per acre, yet the SDme ·ST" land has reportedly
sold at prices as high a3 $1,000 per acro just because the County
allows this land to be eligible for TDR's.
The size of parcels that c1.1rrcntly have an "ST· overlay on them
was discussed, during which Commissioner Wimer objected to small
parcels of land having this overlay because they could be of. no use as
a preservation area even if the County owned them. Be objected to the
fact that they arp. eligible for the TOR process. planner Lee Layne
outlined the areas where most of the ·ST" lands lie, including the
mangrove areas along the coast ðnd along Range 25 and 26 which is
mostly cypress heads.
Tho fact thðt the State and the Federal Government already have
regulations that prohibit development of mangrove areas was discussed
paq. ..
..- - -- -- ---- - - --- -- - -- - ---- ---- --- ---
----------------------~
July 28, 1981
in length and, in answor to Commissioner Kruse, Ms. Lðyne said that the
Board rejected an amendment to the Zoning Ordinance laBt year that
would have removed "ST· from mangroves. The discussion continued,
lncluding whether or not the property Appraiser would raiso the taxes
on mangrovo propcrty that no longer was -ST·J what the rcsu1ts might be
if mangroves were taken out from the ·ST" overlay criteria, the fact
that under the present ordinance, development rights for approximately
6500 dwelling units could be transferred, based on 13,000 acres of ·ST·
land eligible for TDR's. Mr. Virta stated that if the amendment that
was proposed lact May haè been adopted, that number would have been
reduced to 650.
After a lengthy discussion regarding the tax base for -ST- lands,
and the unconfirmed reports that such land is selling for as high as
one hundred times that amount per acre, Commissioner Wimer stated that
he believes that the County should purchase all tho ·ST" land at the
$50 it is asscssed ðt and eliminate ðll the problems associated with
TDR's. County Attorney pickworth said that if the owners of th~ ·ST"
land were not willing to sell at $50 per acre and the Covnty went
through condemnation proceedings which resulted in proof that the land
was worth 10 times that much, than the ·ST" lðnds could be taxed at a
higher base and the County would profit anyway.
^fter further discussion as to the viability of continuing the
processes of ·ST· overlays and the -TDR's of same, Mr. Ed Kant,
reprcsentlng Collier Development Corporation, addressed the proposed
amendment soction by section and offered his comments and/or questions
regarding same. He outlined the portions thereof that he felt
Page 5
~OOK 062 PACE 533
--~-----------~--~--~~---------_.
----- --------- ------ - --------- - - --
aOOK 062 PAGE 534
July 28, 1981
demonstrated certain inequities and inconsistencies. He referred to
the amendment as lacking in continuity and uniformness. He referred to
certain definitions that he feels are inadequate and he stated that by
requiring some land owners to deed their property to the County and
certain others to only guarantee non-development could be construed as
the creation of a -favored- class.
*
*
*
Commissioner Brown left the the room during the above-referenced
presentation at 2:10 P.M. and returned at 2:18 P.M.
*
*
*
Mr. Kant also objected to certain portions of the amendment that
outline cnlculations for TDR's, stating that they are confusing. He
also stated that the portions of the amendment that refcr to a two year
time limit are not ~pecific in that they do not explain when the time
begins.
Upon conclusion of his presentation, Mr. Kant stated that he
believes the present Ordinance ~s working fine and that the amendment
is not necessary. He asked the Board to conBid~r another workshop on
the proposed amendment after the staff has corrected the various areas
that he has shown to be in need of clarification.
A discussion ensued regarding the methods of taxation of these
.ST- lands and Mr. Kant's statement that these lands are taxed the sðme
as any lands with the same zoning, i.e. ·A-ST- is taxed the same as
vacan t · A· land.
Commissioner Wimer stated that he does not agree with guaranteeing
some land and donating others in the TOR process if surface land
Page 6
- ----- -- --------------------------
-----------------------------------
July 28, 1981
.,
rights are to be giver. up, so should the land. He said thðt this i8
the only way to guarantee non-development of land. He said that ðll
land involvod in the TOR process should come into public ownership and
that the TOR process should only be applicable to tracts or land large
enough to be of real benefit to tho public and sufficient in area to be
~anðgeablc. Commissioner pistor agreed.
*
*
..
Commissioner Brown left the room at this time - 2:37 P.M.
. ... *
Commissionor wimer stðted that, if the County is going to use· this
as a tool to acquiro the lands, he suggcsts that the staff re-evaluate
the lands presently under the "ST" overlay and determine which lands
would be of real benefit for public ownership and why. Further, he
would like to see the Plðnning staff bcgin this inventory ðnd set
values on that beneficial land, i.e. mangroves should be identifiEd as
mangroves; marshlands ðS marshlands; and, then, each should be
identified with /J value, I.e. mangrove areas should be given a lot
higher density credit and marshland located inland sho~ld be given ð
lower density credit. He said that all small piaces of land should be
eliminated. He added that he still prefcrs to buy the land Dnd
eliminate this idea altogether, however, this method will at least be
more realistic. He said that the origin/Jl basis fo: ·ST· delineations
were preparcd from a 6011s map drawn up around 1929, and he feels that
-ST- lands need to be more accurate and reasonable. He further
clarified that he finds no fault with the property Appraiser for the
~ethod In which he is taxing this -ST- land because of all the
unknowns, however, if land is not desirable for public ownership, the
Page 7
~OOK 062 PACE 535
__ _ _. _._ _ _ _, __ _ _ ...__ _ _ __~ __. __ _ _.... __ __ _ _ _4_ -- - - - - - -- -"
- -- - -- - -- - --- --- - ----- - - - - - - - - - - - -- -- ---
July 28, 1981
BOOK 062 PACE 5.3ß
-ST" 8~ould be removed and lt should be properly. taxed.
He also sðld that the values of which he ls speaklng is to b.
assigned according to value to the public, 1.0. recroatlonal, beach-
front" estuary, watershed, etc.
Commissioner Kruse stated that, if all the land presently under
government control were eliminated, she does not believe that there
will be enough land left that offers a value to the public to even
worry about, and she concurred with Commissioner Wimer's suggestion.
She also stated that she is opposed to certain criteria, i.e. the
presence of dwarf cypress, as being used to define a value to the
public, and she urged the staff to consider only lands that are a real
benefit to all the people in the County as those worth ·ST·
designation. Commissioner wimer concurred, adding th~t his intent is
to assign high values to that land which is part of the nutritional
food chain, etc.
The discussion ðlso incl~ded the need for the TDR process to be
applicable to everyone on a fair basis and not be geared cowa~ñs the
large landowner only, as expressed by Commissioner Kr~se.
Commissioner Wimer also brought up zoning of property in relation
to the land use and said that he considers mangroves as mangroves, and
that pcrhðps they should be zoned as mangroves and not RM-l or whatever
district they fall in. This was discussed briefly, and Mr. virta asked
the Board for specific direction. Comminsioner Wimer stated that he
WQuld like the staff to pretend that the existing zoning classifi-
cations do not apply and they should study the land and decide how it
ought to be zoned, according to proper land use. Thore was a len9thy
Pag. 8
.- - .-- - -. ..- - .--.--
-.-----...---.--. ---
..-.-..... --' -.------------------
--------------------------------
July 28, 1981
discussion regarding what might happcn 1f a person has property that 1s
presently zoned multi-family and aftcr this study thc staff decides
that, according to land use, a preservation type of zoning
classification is appropriate, during which Mr. Virta said that he did
not believe that the County can deprive a property owner thÐ right to
use his land. Commissioner Wimer clarified that he is interested in
the best use of the land and that other countics have undertaken this
kind of zoning and the Courts have upheld the rezonings. He said that
if mangroves are not suitable for multi-residential they should not be
zoned for them. This was discussed further ðnd County Attorney
pickworth ~tated thõt Dade County has applied ð zoning classification
for preservation and the Courts have upheld this. He said that there
would have to be evidence that that land should be preserved, and
Commissioner Wimer said that is understood. lIe said thðt st...f! should
study the zoning in the County based on today's knowledge. He said
that this is more desirable than the TDR proce5s, whereby false value
on undevelopable lands have been created, or at least the mechðnism for
creating these false values have been created.
There was a lengthy discussion regarding the fact that the State
end the Federal Governments alrcady protect mangrove areas and that
because of the ·ST· overlay, owners of this land pay little taxe51 the
fact that County ·preservation · requirements may not be neccessary,
and, the possibility of rezoning the mangrove areas in Marco Island.
Commissioner pistor reported that there are 7,000 * acres of mangrove
on the Island and that most of it is Zoned RM-l or RM-3 with an ·ST·
overlay. He remarked that if ·ST- is removed from this land and it is
Page 9
MOK 062 PAGE 537
______ _ ___.. ___a ~... ~_a_~____ -.-.-- --- -- - - ------ ---- ------
· ----------------------------------
BOOK 062 PACE 538
July 28, 1981
assessed at the price of other sim11arly zoned land, the tax base would
grow rapidly In Collier County. ^lso discussed was how that land would
be affected in regards to becoming -undevelopable- if 1t were zoned as
a mangrove district, and County Attorney pickworth said that the land
wo u 1 d not become undevelopable by virtue of this kind of zoning, what
wo u 1 d happen is that the County would be saying tha t , if and when the
owner obtained Fcderal and State pcrmits to dev£lop the mangrove, then,
the underlying zoning would t~ke precedence. The affect that this
would have on the tax base was discussed again, and Commissioner wimer
stated that assessed value is not at issue, what is ðt issue are lands
of value to the public.
Commissioner wimer asked thðt this topic be brought back for
another workshop, and said that he would like to see the amendment
stipulate thDt all TDR's would require an automatic transfer of deed,
whether contiguous or non-contiguous. Commissioner pistor agreed.
County Attorney Pickworth also rccommended that the transfer of deed
include a guarantee of preservation deed restriction.
The discussion continued after which Chairman pistor directed the
staff to rework the ordinance with the recommendations outlineå by
Commissioner Wimer and Mr. Pickworth, to take a second look at all -ST-
land as recommended by Commissioner Wimer¡ and to prepare ð report for
a workshop at ð later date regarding the appropriate zoning of land,
based on land use.
* * *
RECESS - TIMEI 3100 P.M. - 3:10 P.M.
The meeting reconvened with Commissioners Brown and Wimer absent.
Page 10
---------------------------------
--------------------------------
July 28, 1981
*
.
.
DISCUSSION REG~RDING TIME SHARE FACILITIES IN RELATION TO APPROPRIATE
PLACEMENT WITHIN CERTAIN ZONING DISTRICTS AS PROVISIONAL USES - STAFF
TO REWORK PROPOSED ORDINANCE ALLO\ilNG SAME IN "RT" AND" FVR" DISTRICTS
~S PERMITTED USES AND IN "GRC" DISTRICTS A5 PROVISION^L USE
Chairman pistor expressed his feeling that time share facilities
should be prohibited from all but the "RT" Districts and that they
should be a provisional use.
Community Development Administrator virtð stated that, pursuant to
ð CAPC w~rkshop approximatelY two months ago, hls staff has developed
an Ordinance which would treðt time share facilities in the sðme manner
as hotels, motels, and apðrtment hotels as provisional uses. He said
that this would rcquirc an advertised public hearing before the Board
wherein the Board would have discretion over each such facility. He
said that it is his opinion that there are certain problems related to
land use and legal perspectives in prohibiting timo share facilities
from the commercial districts and only allowing them in the "RT-
districts, especially when hotels and motels Ðre allowe~ 1/1 ~ommercial
districts. He said that if the Board concurs that tjme share
facilities are to be treated in the same manner as hotels, motels, and
apartment hotels, one faction of this group cannot be excluded from a
district without excluding the others. He said at the present time,
according to the zoning Ordinance, hotels/motels arc permitted in -RT-,
"GRC" and "FVR- zoning districts. He said that, because they can be
considered as similar to transient lodging uses due to certain unique
qualities that they share, he is recommending that they all be
considered as permitted provisional uses. He said that staff considers
PlIge 11
BOOK 062 PACE 539
------ - -- - --- - --. -- --- - ------ -- -- -- -- - --.
---------------------
- ..----.----------
July 28, 1981
BOOK
062 PAGE 540
that time share facilities do not compliment reaidential or
multi-residential land uses Dnd should not be treated as such, thus,
they should not be permitted in the RM-2 or other residential
districts.
Discussed briefly was the fact that at the present time, hotels
and motels are permitted in the -CI- district because this district
enjoys all the principal useß of the -GRC- district, as pointed out by
Planner Lee Layne.
County ^ttorncy Pickworth explained that there are those who do
not think that time share facilites should be treated as transient
lodging facilities and that they should enjoy the same privileges as a
condominium. Mr. Virta stated that his concern lies in discrimination
between hotels, motels, etc., and time share estate facilities.
Deciding upon which philosophy the Board will take and looking at
this situation according to land use purposes was suggested by County
Manager Norman. He reiterated that Mr. Virta has said that by virture
of this comparison and/or because of similarities, the interval
ownership facility is equated to hotels, motels, etc. He said that if
this is the posture the Board takes, then, interval ownership
facilities should be allowed in the districts currently allowing
hotels, motels, ðnd apartment hotels. Commissioner Kruse said that if
the choice is to treat these time share facilities aq either a
condominium or as a hotel/motel type of use, she prefers the latter.
Mr. pickworth agreed that they ought to be treated as a commercial
venture and as a transient lodging facility. He said that he feels
comfortable that there is suCficient rcason for this. He also
Page 12
. -- - - - -- - -------------- --- -----------
. .
---------------------------------.
July 28, 1981
concurred with Mr. Virta that the County must treat them in the same
~Dnner as hotels and motels and must guard against discrimination
between the two in an effort to avoid unnbcessary problems.
Com~iS5ioner wimer stated that he also believes that interval ownership
facilities should be treated as hotel/motel uses. He said that he also
is agreeable to treating all such uses as provisional use structures.
He asked if it would be a problem if interval ownerships could be
prohibited from "RT- districts? Mr. Virta said ~hatthe problem lies
in discriminating between the interval ownership units and the
hotel/~otel units and he added that, if they are all treated alike, and
prohibited from being permitted in the "RT" districts, then, all the
hotel/motel useS presently lying in "RT" districts, including
Vande~bilt and Mðrco Beach, would become non-conforming. In answer to
Commissioner Wimer, Mr. Virta stated thðt he does not see a problem
with prohibiting these uses in the -FVR" di5trict. Commissioner pistor
said that this would affect Goodland to ð minor extent.
Chairman pistor stated that he would still like to see these
interval ownership facilities prohibited in the "GRC" d~strict.
Commissioner Wimer said that they are really a commcrcial entcrprise
and, as long as they have to meet the stipulations of a provisional
use, he does not see any real problem with having them located in the
-GRC" district.
Mr. Pickworth addressed the proposal to make all these uses
provisional uses. He said that there are some legal problems involved
in the proposal and that he did not feel that the Board could "make it
stick". He said that hotels, motels, and all interval ownership
Pðg e 13
aOOK 062 PACE 541
---- - ----- -- ---- --- -- ---- ----- --- - --.
. .
facilities being treated differently than other kinds of commercial
ventures could cause legal problems, and that to sustain this action
tho Board would have to demonstrate certain unique features regarding
-- --- --..- --- --... - -- -- --' - - -- - --,-- - - - - - JUl Y - 28,1981--- - -- -- -- -- - -\
BOOK 062 PAGE 542
these co~mercial ventures that would be in the relevant districts which
mak6 them different from other commercial ventures in these same
districts. He clarified that these differcnces would have to be land
use related. He said that the argument would have to stand up to a
comparison of these kinds of usea and the other 99 pcrmitted uses under
the -GRC" zoning classification, for instance. He said that if the
Board uses the example of those commercial establishments that have
traditionally been treated as provisional uses, i.e. automobile
services, then, the differences in that kind of venture as compared to
other permitted uses is evidcnt, however, he is not sure that the same
would apply when comparing motels, hotels, and time share facilities.
He reminded the Board that the results of this comparison must be used
as the basis for ·singling out" the transient lodging uses for a
different form of regulation than that which is applied to other
permitted USC3, b~5ed on land use considerations, in or~~r to justify
applying the provisional use status. Further, Mr. pickworth stated
that applying the provisional use category may not accomplish that
which is the Board's intent in that a provisional use is granted to a
petitioner meeting specific criteria as outlined in the zoning
Ordinance. He said that if this criteria is met, a developer has the
legal right to have the provisional use granted. II£! said that the
criteria is the same for all provisional uses and 1s all land use
related. He said that it is his belief that, in most cases, whatever
Pðg. 14
- - -- - --- -- -- - ~--- - - .------- --- --- ---
----------------------- --- --,- - -----.
July 28, 1901
it takos to meet tho criteria, wl11 be met by the determined developers
and if thp.y are not granted the provisional use they will just go to
Court to get it approved. He said that he believes that all that will
be accomplised will be the Board becoming an intcrmediate step in the
ðevelopment of interval ownership facilities.
Commissioner Wimer questioned the need for considering the
application of provisional uses for the subject types of facilities
under the circumstances outlined by the County ^ttorney and Mr. Vrita
said that he requested this be considered in response to C^PC
direction. He said that the proposed ordinance was developed in
response to the CAPC and that he considers it as ð vehicle upon which
to dcvelop a discussion. He said that thcre were a lot of legal
questions that required answers. Further, Mr. Virta said that he is
not sure that, based on the definition of transient lodging and the
nature of traffic that goes to the sight, often times the ancillary
commercial that goes along with it could in itself be considercd as a
unique impact. Also there is the impact of service perso~~~~ thôt
would go along with transient lodging which would con~ribute towards
the development of sufficient critcrið for making this kind of use a
provision~l use. Attorney pickworth said that the burden of
substantiation lies with the County, however, if the reasons are there,
they are t.here. lie suggested that the districts where these kinds of
uses might be applicable should be analyzed carefully and the present
zoning considered from a land use point of view. He said that perhaps
the Board could restrict the amount of land required for these kinds of
uses, similar to what happened in the City, i.e. the City allQwed
Page 15
800K 062 PAGE 543
----- -;----;- - -- ---- ------ ---- -- --- -- --- -
.__ _ _.,. __ __ _ ___ ___ _---- __ ___ _ _ _ __ - - -- --'- - --- - ---1
BOOK 062 PACE 5~4 July 28, 1901 I
transient lodging facilities in the same district as they allowed
residential condominiums for a long period of time and then, when the
character of the area bocame predominantly residential, they changed
the zoning so as to prohiblt the transient lodging facilities based on
that fact. He said that this is on~ of the strongest justifications
for a zoning change.
The methodology of the City of Naples' handling time share
facilities was briefly outlined by Mr. picKworth, according to
information within a letter from City planner Roger 8ðrry, including
the fact that the City permits time sharing facilities in certain areas
and they are made "special exceptions" in others. He said that the
County could, perhaps, do the same thing. The discussion continued
regarding the proposed ordinance, provisional use applications, and the
present .RT" districts. Chairman pistor said that he favors allowing
the time share facilities in -RT" districts ðS permitted uses and as
provisionðl use of some other special catûgorized use in other
districts, if this could be accomplished legally. Mr. pickworth
suggested that they also bo allowed as permitted uses Ln the "GRC·
district, and Chairman pistor disagreed, stating that he considers that
there is too much "GRC- property all through the County and that th~s
would encourage too many time share projects. Commissioner Wimer
stated that he did not believe that thero is that mJch "GRC" property
that would be desirable for this kind of project to begin with and
Chariman pistor pointed out that it may not be desirable but they still
will be constructed.
Complaints from residents and the areas from which they come was
Page 16
----- -- --------------------------'"
--------------------------------
July 28, 1981
discussed briefly, during which Commissioner pistor stated that the
most complaints come from people concerned about -RT- Districts, which
includes Marco Island and Vanderbilt. Commissioner Wimer added that
there is a lot of -GRC" property involved too.
Commissioner Wimer stated that he does not believe that the Board
is going to come to any resolvc at this time, however, every
Commissioner has expressed a dcsire to greatly restrict this type of
activity in response to many residents who feel that thic is not really
compatible to the type of development that is desirable on a large
scale in Collier County. He said that he would like to ask the staff
for their help in developing the best method of restriction regarding
time share projects.
* * *
Commissioner Wimer left the meeting at this time - 3:38 P.M.
Attorney George Varnadoe, representing Captran Development, spoke
in favor of interval ownership facilities and objected strongly to any
comparison of them to transient lodging facilities such as
hotels/motels. He stated that he considers interval ownersh1p no
differently than he considers ownership for 52 weeks a yeðr by one
.person who rents or leases his codominium to one or more tenants
throughout the year. He said that the Board is not considering
rcgulating land use¡ they are considering the regulation of ownership.
He referred to the Florida Statutes which he claims prohibits form of
ownership discrimination and stated that time share facilities owners
Dre no different than owners of any other condominium. He said that he
considers the proposals being discusscd today as -legislation by
Page 17
"
MOK 062 PAGE 545
,1·'
~.
'::.:~"
;~l - -- -.---- ------ ---- ------ -------- -- ----- --'
;?
i~~{
'.'\1
...\.
- __ __ __ - __ - _--- ___ - - _-- - - __ - _'_ __ - - __ __ 0'- --
July 28, 1981
ßO~K 062 PACE 546
hysteria-, in rosponse to p~ople who have an unfounded fear of this new
idea for time shared facilities.
Commissioner Kruse said that sho cannot give examples of problems
associated with time share facilities in Florida, however, there are
many examples that she could point out that have resulted in Europe
where time share facilities are widespread. She took exception to Mr.
Varnadoe's references to objcction to ownership, and stated that her
objections lic in the development in the community and its entire
character. He said that there is a totally different commitment on the
part of an owner who lives here 52 weeks a year than there is on the
pðrt of 52 diffcrent owners who only live herc one week~ regar~i~g
community responsibility. She said that it is a matter of investment
in the community, i.e. lifestyle, development, interest in government,
etc., or lack of it thðt bothers her. She said that the owner of a
hotel has a large i~vestment to worry about regarding the community:
Mr. Varnadoe stated that he does not believe that an interval owncr has
any less commitment than does a year-round owner. Commissioner pistor
outlined some problems that a friend of his has experiencp.J in ð time
share facility, including the condition of the building deteriorating
rapidly and the resulting inability to resell his portion of ownership.
~r. Varnadoe replied that these are not land use related problems and
~oncluded by asking the Board to consider his position ~hat time sharo
facilities are no different that condominium facilities and, therefore,
should not be restricted from being applicable to those zoning
districts ~here condominium projects are permitted. He suggested that
the staff give the proposals more research.
Page 18
. ._~ - -- - - - --- ------ -- ---- -------- -----
1 ' '
-- - - - - - -~ - - - - - - - - -- - - -JUl:;-2 -;:- -1-9 ~.- - - -- ----
Mr. Konn R. Koi~, President of Captran Resorts International,
spoke in favor of interval ownership facilities and stated that he and
his associates have worked closely with various governmental agencies,
such as those governing Sanibel Island, in establishing guidelines
regarding this kind of use, and offered to work with the Collier County
staff towards this end. He disagreed with Commissioner Kruse's
statements regarding lack of caring about the community on the part of
the owners of time share facilities and he also replied to Chairman
pistor's comments regarding rapid deterioration of a facility on the
basis that this implies that it happens by virture of the kind of
ownership, which, he claimed is not the reason that it happens. lIe
said that the owners of time share facilities have a geat deal of money
invested and that they do care about the community, the local
governments, and the general upkeep of their units.
Mr. Dob Taylor, representing Mariner Properties, Inc., spoke on
the need for rcgulation directed at the method of sales practices
rather than towards the kind of ownership and the proper plac~ for
these kinds of facilities. He said that when time sh~re facilities are
located in Commercial areas they are less attractive to the buyer and
this generatcs questionablc sales practices. He said that he agrees
that -RT- is the district that thesr. time share facilities should be
placed and he reported that on Sanibel, they are permitted in
Tourist/Multi-family zoning districts. He offered to work with staff
to develop proper guidelines and stated that his firm has gathered
relevant data and statistics which he will be glad to turn over to the
ataff to help them In this effort. He remarked that he understood the
Page 19
&OOK 062 PACE 547
- ---- -- - --------- ----------- ---. - -.-
.1~~
-- -.- ~- -- - - -- --- - - - - - -- .-- - - - - -- - -.- ..- --'
July 29, 19B1
062 PACE 548
concern of the Commissioners in respect to those time share facilitoa
located throughout Europe and he pointed out that these are generally
500 units or more and that he does not fecl that this kind of a project
would be appropriate to Collicr County either. He asked the Board to
consider that the real areas of concern include location and sales
practices.
The idea of provisional uses for timo share projects was discussed
again briefly, during which Mr. Norman asked M;. Taylor if he would be
agreoable to this concept and if they would be willing to work with the
staff to dcv~lop this concept? Mr. Taylor replied affirmðtively. Mr.
Norman aSKed the same of Attorney Varnðdoe and he replied negatively,
ðddlng that he sees no need because his client, Captran Development, 16
building condominiums. He said that how many people that his client is
selling a condominium to has nothing to do with the kind of project
thðt is being built and that he has no intention of backing down from
that legal position. He ßaid that, anytime the County attempts to
limit his client as to what he can build by having them go through the
provisional use process for som~thlng that is permltte.d under the
zoning regulations, his remedy is going to be In the Courts. Ho said
that he would not subject his client to that kind of discrimination,
which is what he believes it is. When asked if his client would sue
tho County if time shðre facilities are prohibited in -RM-2- districts,
by Chairman pistor, Mr. Varnadoe raplied negatively, explaining that
his client believes that the appropriate place to build this kind of a
facility is in -RT- districts. He added that he did think, however,
that the County would have ð .legal battle if somebody wero to deciðe
Page 20
.------ ..-_.~ .-.- -----..---- ---'- -- --'-'- --- - - -- -- -.-------
------------------------- ---------
July 28, 1981
that they wished to construct ð time share project in the -RM-2-
district, based on the Florida Statutes. possible legal ramifications
of prohibiting time share facilites from being constructed in -RM-2-
zoned areas was discussed briefly again, during which County Attorney
pickworth stated that if the Board attemp~s to restrict time share
facilities by making them provisional uses and not ðllowing them to be
constructed in certain ðrCBS, the Board will undoubtedly force someone
to try the County in relation to the -RM-2- district. Mr. Varnadoe
stated that, although he totally disagrees with the classification, if
the County decides that it is going to classify time share fùcilities
the same as hotels and motels, i.e. transient lodging, then he does not
see how one of thcse classifications could be allowed as a permitted
use in ð district ðnd not the other. He said thðt, from a legal
standpoint, the County would be inviting a legal argument.
The possible strain or lack of strain on the utilities when ð time
share facility is constructed was discussed, during which Utilities
Manager Berzon explained the applications of use regardi~~ ~his kind of
use, seùsonal influx versus steady daily use¡ and, the fact that the
stresS would not show up regarding water and sewagc until the
capability of the systems were reached, at which time, because they
would be requiring the availability of utilities year round, it could
pose a straining effect on utilItIes. He also stated that, because
this could result in some problems, he suggested that the utility
capabilities be studied carefully wherever this kind of a use is
proposed.
^ftcr further discussion, Chairman pistor directed the staff to
Page 21
M~ 062 ftltE5t9
_-- __ -r- ---------- - ---- ---- -- - --- -- ----
I\OOK
I .
-- - - -- -- - -- --'- -- --- -- ---- - - - --- -- ---
July 28, 1981
062 PACE 550
re-work the ordinanco, eliminating time share facilitlea from ·FVR-
districts, allowing them as permitted uses in the -RT- districts, and
allowing them as provisional uses in the -GRC- districts. He alao
~Jggested that Mr virtð contact the gentlemen who spoke today and get
their input. Mr. varnðdoe offered to work with the County at this
po int.
ADJOURNMENT - TIME~ ~:15 P.M.
There being no further business for the good of the County, the
meeting waS adjourned by order of the Chairmðn at 4:15 p.M.
Page 22
, .-- -- - - --------.,--.------------
.. "-~