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CLB Minutes 07/21/2004 R July 21,2004 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida July 21, 2004 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: LES DICKSON David L. Beswick Eric Guite' Richard Joslin William Lewis ALSO PRESENT: Thomas Bartoe, Licensing Compliance Officer Robert Zachary, County Attorney Patrick Neale, Counsel to the Board Bleu Wallace, Director of CDES Operations Paul Balzano, Licensing Compliance Supervisor Robin Horn, Licensing Compliance Officer 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: JULY 21,2004 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: May 19, 2004 V. DISCUSSION: VI. NEW BUSINESS: Harris Dix - Request to qualify a second company Arthur W. Morehead - Request to qualify a second company. VII. OLD BUSINESS: Daniel Greene - Failure to comply with CLB ruling. VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: Case #2004-03 Collier County vs Ronald Elmore d//b/a Elmore Painting & Decorating, Inc. IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 July 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Everybody ready? I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board for July. Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings; therefore, you may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made, which it is, includes testimony and evidence upon which an appeal is placed. I'd like to have roll call, starting from my right. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Lewis. MR. BESWICK: Mr. Beswick. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And any additions or deletions to the minutes, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BAR TOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, board members. For the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County licensing and compliance officer. Staff would like to add under discussions, but probably move it to the end of the meeting, something we discussed in our office this morning about our citations that we issue. And we could probably use the guidance of our counsel. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Everything else okay? MR. BAR TOE: Other than that, staff has no additions or deletions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need an approval of the agenda as modified. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. MR. BESWICK: Second, Beswick. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? 2 July 21, 2004 MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And also in your packet, gentlemen, is the minutes. I need an approval to accept those into the record. MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion that we approve the minutes from the last meeting, May 19th. MR. GUITE': I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Real quick, Mr. Bartoe, we did have three people who completed their term on this board with -- at the end of June. And Mr. Beswick did reapply for a second term. Did Michael Baril reapply? Was he -- MR. BARTOE: No, apparently they did not like the pay as well as Mr. Beswick did. And I talked with Sue Filson this morning, and her advertising for the two remaining spots, that advertisement ran out July 16th with no applications. It will have to be readvertised. There is one vacancy for a consumer and one for a general contractor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did anybody call Mr. Baril and see if he would reapply? MR. BARTOE: I called and left a message and never got an answer back. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. He was a very good board member. 3 July 21, 2004 MR. BARTOE: And also, if possible, the board is supposed to have a representative from Marco, which he was. And I did talk to another contractor who is on Marco that did show interest. However, to date he has not applied. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. But he doesn't have to be from Marco? MR. BAR TOE: No, we should attempt to -- same as we should attempt to have one from the City of Naples. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So we need a consumer and we also need a general contractor? MR. BAR TOE: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or another general contractor. MR. NEALE: Mr. Chairman, I will see Mr. Baril tomorrow in a meeting, so I can ask him if he would be interested in reupping. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, if you would, tell him. If you remember, we had our May meeting and then we did not have enough business to have a June meeting. And because of that fact, it completely went by me that I had three people coming off the board. So I was negligent in saying anything at the board meeting or talking to them. But I would love to have Mr. Baril back. He was a good member of this board. MR. BAR TOE: And I would also like to add right now we've had a few changes in the office since our May meeting. Our supervisor, Mr. N onnenmacher retired, and Paul Balzano has replaced him. And we hired to replace Paul as an investigator Mr. Robin Horn, who is sitting here beside me. Mr. Horn has five years experience working for the State of Florida in workers' compensation investigations. He has worked in the past for the federal government in homeland security, and he is also retired from the military. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And also part of the U.S. Customs, correct? MR. HORN: I was with ICS, Immigration Customs 4 July 21, 2004 Enforcement as senior investigator. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Immigrations customs. Bring a wealth of knowledge. Look forward to it. Okay. New business. Harris Dix, request to qualify second entity. Are you present? If you would come up to this podium, sir. I need for you to state your name, and the court reporter will swear you in. MR. DIX: My name is Harris Dix. (Speaker duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Basically give us an overview of what you qualify now, what you're wanting to qualify and why. MR. DIX: We have an electrical contracting firm, PHD, which I run myself. And we will be qualifying a second electrical contracting firm, Total Electric, which I will be the qualifier, technical supervisor of. And basically it's the most financial gains for the least amount of risk for myself. We have very qualified people that will be running these. And it's all about getting up and going to work in the morning and making as much as we can out of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, PHD, you have an ownership interest? MR. DIX: It's a corporation that I am the president, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And the new one, Total Electric? MR. DIX: I do not. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You do not. Okay. All right. But are you receiving some type of financial -- MR. DIX: I am an employee of it, yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're an employee. So you'll receive a salary, I assume? MR. DIX: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you won't be working for them, 5 July 21, 2004 or just be supervising? MR. DIX: I am a supervisor of that corporation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Total Electric Contracting, is this a new company? MR. DIX: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They're out of -- or, no -- brand new, just starting up? MR. DIX: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'm looking for the principals. Is that Joseph Wright? MR. DIX: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is he the only other -- only principal? MR. DIX: Yes, he's president. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. His credit report's good. MR. JOSLIN: The packet looks good. First time I've seen the continuing education classes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any complaints on Mr. Dix, county? MR. BARTOE: I'm sorry? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any complaints on Mr. Dix? MR. BAR TOE: No, sir. MR. JOSLIN : You do realize that you will be responsible for all the activity that goes on with this second company? MR. DIX: Yes, sir. MR. JOSLIN: As well as your first. MR. DIX: Yes, sir. We have all that information available to us. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Insurance is there. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we approve his application. MR. BESWICK: I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have a motion to approve and second. 6 July 21, 2004 All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Dix, first of all, we wish you well. MR. DIX: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Secondly, congratulations on doing a good packet. MR. DIX: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: A lot of times people come in here with missing papers and missing information. And you're an example of how fast it can go if everything is in order. The other thing, don't go to contractor licensing today because the girls will not have your file; it's in this room. MR. DIX: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can go there tomorrow. And that applies to everyone else who's trying to do a second entity. Best of luck to you. MR. DIX: Thank you. Do I need to stay for the rest of this? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, sir, you're done. It's easy when it's right. Arthur Morehead, are you present? MR. MOREHEAD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come up to the same podium and state your name, and I'll have you sworn in. MR. MOREHEAD: My name's Arthur Morehead. (Speaker duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Morehead, if you would, give us the same synopsis, what you're qualifying now, what you're doing 7 July 21, 2004 and why. MR. MOREHEAD: My name is Arthur Morehead, I own Custom Quality Painting, Incorporated. I have been in business since '98. Due to the influx and the construction pricing getting driven down, I am moving into faux finishing. I want to be able to do my own base painting rather than having to subcontract my base painting to Custom Quality. I'm going to keep Custom Quality open until 2006, and I plan on closing Custom Quality after that date. And I'm getting into the faux finishing, the artist work, and I need to be able to paint as well as do the faux finishing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. You work basically on Marco, don't you? MR. MOREHEAD: I do a lot of work on Marco, but I do work in Bonita, Lee County, Collier County, you know, pretty much everywhere. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Just a question, personal nature more than anything else. Why couldn't you do the faux painting through Custom Quality Painting? MR. MOREHEAD: Well, I found that in my marketing a lot of the clients, they think that painters don't really know how to do artistic work. And I've been an artist my whole life, and I found that, you know, I've already started the art faux design and we've already started marketing, and I am getting an incredible response. Now, I've also done marketing as Custom Quality Paint. I wasn't getting any response because a lot of people think painters don't know how to do artwork. So hence, Art-Faux Design was formed. And the reason that it is is, you know, I feel that faux artists should be licensed, pay workmen's comp, as well as a painting contractor, and that's not the case. So what I'm trying to do is set a standard in Collier County, being a licensed painter as well as a faux artist, so that way I can assure my clients that we do know what we're doing. 8 July 21, 2004 In the past I have seen a lot of work out there that is just falling off the wall because there's a lot of faux artists out there that just don't know what they're doing. And I'm trying to set a standard here for Collier County by becoming licensed as a faux artist. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I have no problem with that. MR. BAR TOE: I have to agree with him. I'm a licensed painter, and don't ask me to do faux painting. It takes a special person to be able to do it and do it correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You also do Venetian plastering? MR. MOREHEAD: Yes, sir. I do pretty much all of it. Murals, faux finish, Venetian plaster. I've been going to school for three years on this. I've invested quite a bit of money into learning, you know, the products themselves. I mean, I can do artwork, but I wanted to understand the product breakdown, what has to be done, so I can let the general contractors know how my walls have to be before I apply Venetian plaster. Some Venetian plasters are synthetic, some are real lime. And if you use the wrong product over paint, you're going to run into trouble, you know, and I see it all the time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All I can -- as a roofing contractor, I've seen a lot of mold problems because of Venetian plastering. MR. MOREHEAD: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because they're doing Venetian plastering on both sides of the wall, and that is absolutely sealed shut, no moisture can pass through it. MR. MOREHEAD: Well, what it is, is they're using car wax. See, Venetian plaster has to be -- it has to breathe. It's a natural product. It resists mold. And it's probably better than paint. It is better than paint. And if you seal that Venetian plaster up with the wrong kind of wax, it's going to produce mold within the walls. I currently do work for other general contractors and I've brought this to their attention, and they found out the results. I'm not 9 July 21, 2004 going to mention one company involved, but they had to literally strip all the plaster off the inside of a million dollar -- couple million dollar home because somebody didn't do their homework. All the products I use I've done all the research on. I make sure that when I put wax on it, it's a breathable wax, you know, and I warranty it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's why I'd like to have licensed faux people, because the first guy they take a shot at is me. MR. MOREHEAD: Yes, it is -- it's crazy out there. I mean, the painting business is not what it used -- not what it was five years ago. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does anybody see anything wrong with the packet? Again, it's an extremely well done packet. I don't see any credit problems, do you? MR. BESWICK: No. MR. LEWIS: One of the more extensive credit reports I've seen. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, no kidding. Someone give me a motion. MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion we approve the application. MR. GUITE': I'll second it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor, say aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're approved. Nice packet. Wish you well. And you can take care of this tomorrow at the office on Horseshoe. Okay? MR. MOREHEAD: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir. I wish all the second entities went this well. Of course, also July 1 st has passed, which ended a whole lot of problems. 10 July 21, 2004 Next is old business. Daniel Greene, are you present? MR. GREENE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you'll come forward, please. Mr. Bartoe, would you like to -- I don't know that I really -- Mr. Neale, guide me on this. Mr. Daniel Greene is -- I'm really not so much interested in testimonial, or should I take it? MR. NEALE: Well, you need to take testimony, at least to see if Mr. Greene has some reason as to why he didn't pay. And if the board then can at that point consider whether to revoke the probation and impose additional sanctions or what the appropriate action is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Bartoe, would you just give us a refresher? MR. BARTOE: Mr. Chairman, I apologize for this. I did have, which I cannot locate right now, blank findings of fact, conclusions of law for this. However, I must have left them in the office, so you'll have to wing it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We can do that. MR. BAR TOE: I think my letter that I gave to Mr. Greene in person on June 6th advising him that we would be back here for a hearing today, it's self-explanatory. It's that we had a hearing on this complaint on February 18th, 2004, and the contractor's licensing board's finding of fact, conclusion of law state that he did violate Section 4.1.10 of Collier County Ordinance 91-105, as amended. And the order of the board states that restitution in the amount of 6,000 be paid to Mr. and Mrs. Foster within nine months of the date of the order at a rate of $2,000 per quarter. And the letter continues, you were also placed on probation during the repayment term. The order also states the probation may be revoked by the board should you fail to meet the repayment schedule. And due to the fact that time has passed, the first payment of 2,000 was due to the paid, which was May 23rd, 2004. That was 90 11 July 21, 2004 days from the date the official letter was sent out of the board's findings. And the Fosters have not received payment. The matter is scheduled for a hearing before the board this date. And as I said, Mr. Greene personally signed for this letter June 2nd. In a packet I provided you is a letter that I received from the Fosters, where I circled on the top of it that I received it June 16th of this year, stating they had not been paid. And I put a copy of the board's order -- finding of fact and order in your packet to refresh your mind from what happened in February. And also, when I went to work this morning, there was a phone message on my answering machine at work from 7: 5 8 p.m. last night from Mr. Foster, advising he still has not received a payment. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Greene, would you like to respond? I need to have you sworn. (Speaker duly sworn.) MR. GREENE: Being self-employed, business fluctuates, and things got slow. And I tried to call -- contacting Mr. and Mrs. Foster a couple times to see if I could extend the payment schedule, because I was advised by the board to pay this, and I knew I needed to do that. But I didn't have any response at all from them. So I don't know what to do from there. I'm going to talk to them directly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you send any money? MR. GREENE: I didn't send any money, no, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not even $100? MR. GREENE: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: It's the pleasure of the board as to whether to revoke his probation, and then at that point the board has the full set of sanctions permitted under the ordinance for someone found in violation. If you wish, I can review those sanctions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you also give me the case 12 July 21, 2004 number and the license number? MR. NEALE: This is Case No. 2004-01. His License No. 22946. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you read those sanctions? MR. NEALE: Certainly. The sanctions that can be imposed are: Number one, revocation of the Collier County or city certificate of competency. Two, suspension of the certificate of competency. Three, denial of issuance or renewal of a certificate of competency. Four, a period of probation of reasonable length, not to exceed two years, during which the activities shall be under the supervision of the board. Five, restitution. Six, a fine not to exceed $5,000. Seven, a public reprimand. Eight, a reexamination requirement. Nine, denial of the issuance of Collier County or city building permits or requiring the issuance of permits with specific conditions. And 10, reasonable investigative and legal costs for the prosecution of the violation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Basically at this point right now I'm going to close public hearing so we can discuss this among ourselves, unless anyone has anything else to offer. MR. LEWIS: I've got one question for Mr. Greene. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. LEWIS: Can you explain to us why you did not send any money or at least call the Collier County Contractor Licensing to explain to them what was going on? MR. GREENE: Again, being self-employed you know, business slow, I've got a terminally ill wife here, that medication cost quite a bit, and it just -- hard times, that's all. Again, I did try contacting the Fosters a couple, three times to talk to them, just say look, you know, I will pay you, but I've got to have more time to get this thing taken care of. MR. LEWIS: But you never tried to contact contractor licensing? 13 July 21, 2004 MR. GREENE: No, because I'm going through the Fosters. MR. LEWIS: Okay. Thank you. MR. GREENE: I mean, I've talked to Mr. Bartoe here and he says, you know, this has got to be signed. So I said this is where I'm at. He stopped over. I'm supposed to be here today. I'm here today. I'm trying to show my integrity as far as getting this thing taken care of so -- , CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? MR. JOSLIN: Is there anything that you could tell us that would change the board's ideas as far as what this is going to lead to? You know, what are your intentions or what are your plans? MR. GREENE: Again, I've tried contacting the Fosters. MR. JOSLIN: The Fosters has nothing to do with it. We're talking about what you're going to do for the -- for the Fosters. Mr. Foster is out of this. MR. GREENE: No, I know. But I've got to pay him direct. I'm not paying the board, I'm paying him. And I want to talk to him and say I can't come up with $2,000. So if I did some sort of a schedule to him, maybe a couple hundred a month or whatever, if he would accept that, that's what I elect to do. I just need a little bit more time. My work's starting to pick up now, so it's just something that -- of course, now with the lack of a license is going to slow down -- MR. BARTOE: Mr. Greene, did you talk to the Fosters or did you get their answering machine? MR. GREENE: I got the answering machine down here and I got the one up, I believe it's Wisconsin. And I said please give me a call. I gave my cell phone number and I gave them my phone numbers. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What was the date of the original hearing, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: February 18th. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Just to bring everybody up -- 14 .- July 21, 2004 if you remember, the case was February 18th and it was originally at $12,000. Mr. Foster was the one who agreed to accept 50 percent, which was extremely -- it was shocking to this board, quite honestly. And then we discussed payment terms, and we gave him three months to come up with 2,000, one-third of it. Mr. Neale, wasn't it another three months after that that he -- MR. NEALE: It was a nine-month schedule. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Nine-month schedule. So every three months -- MR. BARTOE: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- he would come up with $2,000, and it would be paid off, giving him three months to come up with the first payment. It would be paid off in a 12-month period. MR. BARTOE: No, paid off in a nine-month period. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Nine-month period, but giving him three months -- MR. BARTOE: November 18th should be paid off. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, at the time of the hearing. Which Mr. Foster was agreeable to that as well. It wasn't the money that he wanted at the time. I'll throw this out only because it does have some bearing on the case, only because if he says he was trying to contact them -- you've had trouble getting ahold of them. MR. BARTOE: Right, they did advise there is no cell service in the area. I did leave -- I've called a home phone that I have and left messages. I did tell him on my message to get back to me yesterday or today as to whether they have received any payment yet so I could let the board know today. And as I told you, he left that message on my phone last night. That's the only thing I've heard from them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell the board the condition of the house. MR. BARTOE: There is no house anymore. 15 July 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It was sold and -- MR. BARTOE: I went by it probably a week after the February board meeting and it was for sale. And I went by a month ago. It's apparently sold. The For Sale sign's gone and the house is gone. The driveway is still there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That doesn't change anything here. The money is still owed to the -- MR. BAR TOE: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- to the Fosters. Okay. What's the board's pleasure? How do you feel? MR. LEWIS: Is there something that we can do, Chairman, to get the Fosters, since they're not in this location and not readily available through, you know, phone contact or message service, maybe we -- is it out of line for the board or for staff to step in their place and act as a liaison for collections? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: It's probably the -- it certainly could be done. But, you know, there could be a liaison set up that way, because it does sound like it is difficult for Mr. Greene to get in touch with them so-- , MR. JOSLIN: I think I would have to tend to agree with Mr. Lewis also, only because now I'm looking at a situation where there's a lot of money that's owed, which is definitely owed to them. However, now we have no house. MR. BARTOE: We have a home address in Tennessee where the money can be sent to. MR. JOSLIN: Right. There was also an indication in the letter that came from Mr. Foster here that said he did receive a call on his cell phone, but he didn't wish to speak to this gentleman. MR. LEWIS: I think it says also he has no intent of speaking to him. MR. JOSLIN: He had no intent of talking to him, so I don't 16 July 21, 2004 exactly know where -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm bothered by the fact that there hasn't been one single penny paid. Hard times, yes, I understand. But we're also talking five months and not one single penny is paid. The problem's not going to go away, it's not going to disappear. The fact that they sold the house or whether the house exists or not, the obligation is still there. And if Mr. Greene thinks he's going to continue to work in Collier County, he's going to pay this obligation or we have no choice but to revoke your license. MR. GREENE: I understand that, sir. Again, I just couldn't come up with 2,000. I thought I could pay -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but you could have come up with a few hundred dollars. MR. GREENE: I didn't want to slap him in the face by throwing a couple hundred when he expected a couple thousand; hence, the phone calls. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think it's more a slap in the face that there was absolutely zero. MR. GREENE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So what's the pleasure of the board? I -- it's a Catch-22 situation. We can sit here and revoke his license today, and we're fully within our bounds to do that, and then the Fosters, who we basically are representing, or this board exists for the citizens of Collier County, get nothing. I personally want to find a very hard line payment plan to get them this $6,000. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Foster -- I'm sorry, Mr. Greene, what is your -- can you tell us something here on the board that would give us some kind of a plan that you feel that you can make that would keep us from having to terminate this license or revoke all your privileges here? MR. GREENE: I'd like to talk to the Fosters and find out. Maybe a couple hundred a month, do something like that; if they're 17 July 21, 2004 going to accept that? You know, I mean, again, my wife being sick and medication and things like that, it's a big -- you know, it's a lot of money for medication. And it's something that I'll try to appease him as much as possible. I'd like to talk to him first and say look, I will do what I can. I will pay. I do owe you -- I owe you the money and I will pay it, but it may take longer. You just have more time to get that taken care of. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, given the fact that we have complete control over this board, you don't need to talk to the Fosters. Consider us the collection agency for the Fosters. MR. GREENE: But I'm paying the Fosters, aren't I? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're going to pay -- right now you're going to pay the county and we will get the money to the Fosters. Legally is that agreeable, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: I'll have to see. Mr. Zachary probably would be better to speak to that. But I don't know whether the county can actually act as the transmittal agent; that is, taking the money and issuing a county check for it. The county may be able to act as sort of a mailbox. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Here's my point, though. The Fosters don't have the authority to revoke his license, we do. MR. NEALE: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is it possible, like Mr. Lewis was saying, that, for example, he deliver a money order to contractor licensing on a set schedule, made out to the Fosters? MR. NEALE: Yes, that's something that I think would be-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then we in turn send that money order on to them. That way we know that regular payments are made. MR. NEALE: I think that could fall under the -- basically the probationary clause in the ordinance, which states that the 18 July 21, 2004 contracting activities shall be under the supervision of the board. And I think that certainly would fall under the purview, his activities being under the supervision of this board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because whether the Fosters agree with it or not, if we revoke the license today, they never get any money. If it takes us longer to get their $6,000, at least they got their $6,000. And knowing Mr. Foster, who is an absolute jewel of a gentleman, I'm sure he would agree to anything. MR. BAR TOE: And we accept, you know, checks all the time made out to the complainant, and then our department makes sure that the complainant gets it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, Ijust don't want checks. Checks bounce. Money orders don't bounce. MR. NEALE: Either certified check or money order. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't even trust certified checks anymore. Especially when I've got a certified check that I took to the local bank and they couldn't tell it was a forgery. And they cannot tell anymore until they process it through that other bank. To me a certified check today is worthless. MR. NEALE: Or a money order. You know, that __ CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Money orders are a little more difficult, especially U.S. Postal money orders. What's the pleasure of the board? How do you guys feel? MR. GUITE': How much money would you feel comfortable, on like a weekly basis, to pay these -- the Fosters? Would 100 bucks a week? I mean, that's not all that much. I know, you know, you're a tile contractor, I know what you can make, you can make that in a couple of hours, so -- MR. GREENE: Well, depending on -- you know, I'm one person. Yeah, that's feasible. MR. GUITE': That's giving you more than a whole year to pay them. 19 July 21, 2004 MR. GREENE: Right. And that's, again, what I want to talk to Mr. Foster about, if that's going to be okay with him. That -- yeah, I mean -- MR. GUITE': Well, we'll talk with Mr. Foster and make sure that's okay. I don't want to come here and say well, we ordered you to pay 200 bucks a week, knowing that you can't afford that. MR. GREENE: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's going to happen at this point, Mr. Greene, is we're going to come up with a payment schedule. You're going to deliver to contractor licensing. And once we make this order of the board, if you miss a payment, your license is automatically revoked. So there's no discussion with the Fosters. I can't emphasize that enough. MR. GREENE: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So when we say what can you pay on a weekly basis, is $100 reasonable? MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, would it be -_ MR. GREENE: Does it have to be paid every week or every month? MR. JOSLIN: Would it be more advantageous to do it on a monthly basis? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I'm just -- but I'm basing a weekly basis. Ifwe do $100 a week, it's been over 24 weeks since we had the original case. Well, that could have been $2,400. I want to get this thing going and get it over with. MR. GREENE: But it's a situation also where if I'm making better money I can, you know, instead of $100 a month, I can make it 200. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And if that happens and we say we agree on $100, and one week you're able to pay $300, you keep doing that $100 a week -- MR. GREENE: No, I'm saying a month. 20 July 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, or 400 a month, and you can pay more than that, then we could apply that as a credit for when maybe you don't have any work. Do you follow me? MR. GREENE: Yes. But depending on how the work structure goes, you know -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I understand, it cycles. MR. GREENE: Yeah, it does, it does. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You'll pay off a little bit extra and that might handle you through a cycle. MR. GREENE: A hundred dollars a week is a little steep for me. I mean -- MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, would it be advisable to let the Greenes have a few minutes and talk it over between themselves? Seems like a family matter at this point, family and business matter. MR. GREENE: Can we say like 300 a month? MR. JOSLIN: Three hundred a month is something that you can definitely do? MR. GREENE: I'll try. I'll try. I owe the money so I'll try the best I can. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Say that again on the mic. MR. BESWICK: I'm just a little bit uncomfortable with there being no penalty attached to this. I mean, there was an order from this board, you know. I understand that there's situations where there's no work. Believe me, I've seen some of this stuff. But there was an order that came out of this board and it wasn't followed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I couldn't agree more. And I think we're being very lenient in our discussions. MR. BARTOE: And I think Mr. Dickson indicated the major penalty will be, if you don't make a payment, it will be revocation of license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I've got a feeling that's the way the board's going to go on this new motion. You miss a payment, the 21 July 21, 2004 license is done. I don't remember second chances on this board. This is a second chance, but also I'm doing it only because of the Fosters. The man gave up $6,000. I'm going to see that he gets the $6,000, if at all possible. MR. GUITE': Well, what happens if we just revoke his license? And then Mr. Foster would have to take him to court. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Exactly. And he's not going to get anything in court. MR. GUITE': Get a judgment against him and he doesn't have a way to make money to pay him back, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And from Mr. Foster's testimony that he gave before the board, he made it very obvious that the money was not the issue to him personally because of their financial situation. That's why he was very generous. Somebody come up with a motion. MR. JOSLIN: I'll take a stab at it. I'm going to make a motion that Mr. Greene, you will be obligated to pay $300 a month in -- via a money order delivered to Collier County Contractor Licensing, that they will deliver to Mr. Foster, until this debt is paid. And should you miss a payment by more than a seven-day grace period, your license will be revoked and CHAIRMAN DICKSON: When's the payment due? MR. JOSLIN: The first payment? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Each month. When each month? MR. JOSLIN: That's by the 1st of each month. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Starting? MR. JOSLIN: This is the 21 st? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. GUITE': Say September. MR. JOSLIN: Starting September 1. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Everyone clear on the motion? 22 July 21, 2004 MR. LEWIS: Clear. MR. BESWICK: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have a second? MR. GUITE': I'll second it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? MR. LEWIS: Only discussion would be the date of starting. I mean, we've got two weeks till August 1 st, and I think Mr. Greene's had plenty of time to get some money together. He needs to just work a little harder or find somebody to borrow from or something. I'd suggest that we might change the date to August 1 st. MR. JOSLIN: I'll accept that. I'll amend the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's discuss it. What's today? MR. LEWIS: 21st of July. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Only thing I'm thinking is that's not two weeks, it's one week. MR. GUITE': I think we ought to keep it September. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm thinking September because I'm really more interested in this happening than blowing up within the first payment. MR. JOSLIN: I'll leave it at the September 1 st. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you don't agree with that, then we can always redo the motion if it fails. MR. LEWIS: I'll stay with the -- I'll go with September. I was just thinking in the lines of -- you know, the man's had 24 weeks so far to come up with, you know, something. And if he doesn't have any contracts under way now, September's not going to make any difference to him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The thing I'm looking at is -- and as 14 or 15 years on this board, what happens the majority of time, Mr. Bartoe, will you agree, is that we get these penalties where they're supposed to pay homeowners back, and I'm going to say probably 90 percent of them are never paid and we end up revoking a license 23 July 21, 2004 because he's out of Miami or Broward or something like that, or Lee County, and the homeowner ends up empty-handed. And here I have someone who lives and works in Collier County and at least came back to the board. This will probably be one of the first few that __ MR. JOSLIN: Got a second chance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, he got a second chance because he lives here and he came before this board. If you hadn't have come before this board today, I can assure you what would have happened. Okay, we have a motion on the floor, we have a second. Any more discussion? MR. NEALE: Just one thing for the board's consideration, is should the board leave in place the probationary period as set out in the previous order, the ordinance and Florida statutes would require that Mr. Greene be brought back in front of this board again for a hearing, should he fail to make the payments. The board's other option would be to at this point revoke probation and order that should payments fail to be made, that the license would be automatically revoked. That is an option the board could take on. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think that was in the motion. MR. JOSLIN: I think that's what I had in mind. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ifhe misses a payment-- MR. NEALE: It's just that -- I would just suggest adding to the motion that the probation is revoked, because -- MR. JOSLIN: Okay, I'll add that to the motion that as of this moment in time that yes, the probationary period that was granted to you is hereby revoked. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And on the second, is that agreeable? MR. GUITE': Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any more discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, call for the vote. 24 July 21, 2004 All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Passed unanimously. Let me -- you know where contractor licensing is? MR. GREENE: Yes, sir, I've been there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The 1 st of each month you will deliver a money order in the amount of $200 ( sic) starting September 1st. MR. JOSLIN: $300. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: $300, I'm sorry, $300. And the 1st of every single month after that you will deliver a money order for $300 until this is paid in full. MR. GREENE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you are delinquent, there is a seven-day grace period in there, not so much to give you extra time but for holidays, weekends and stuff like that. If you miss a payment, your license is automatically revoked. Do you understand? MR. GREENE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So it's not our wish to put you out of business, it's our wish to get the Fosters taken care of. So I hope everything works out. MR. GREENE: I appreciate the still having my license activated, because that's how I make my money. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, what will happen, once you get that paid you won't be under a probation or a suspension after it's paid in full. 25 July 21, 2004 MR. GREENE: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's clear. But miss a payment and your license is revoked. The only way you can get a revoked license back is to go take tests again and go through the whole procedure. In other words, we can't reverse a revocation. MR. GREENE: I understand that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We wish you well. Mr. Neale, do I need to do an order of the board? MR. NEALE: Yeah. In fact, let me -- I've been drafting away on one here, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, so we can -- MR. NEALE: I'll bring it up to you and you can read it off of here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any questions? MR. GREENE: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Work hard. MR. GREENE: I've got to get going right now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. You're finished. MR. GREENE: At least I come in with the work clothes on, so CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What we're going to do now is just legal. MR. JOSLIN: I do commend you for coming in here today, though. MR. GREENE: Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. I know I owe the money, so -- I'm just showing my integrity, that's all. MR. BAR TOE: And Mr. Greene, a copy of this finding of fact that they're going to do right now will get mailed to you certified mail to your residence. MR. GREENE: Okay, Mr. Bartoe. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is today the 22nd or 21st? MR. NEALE: 21st. 26 July 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Order on probation. This cause came on for public hearing, which is just for the -- of Daniel Greene, which is Case No. 2004-01, License No. -- can you hear me okay -- License No. 22946, came before public hearing of the contractor licensing board, hereafter called the board, on July 21st, 2004, for consideration of the violation of the order imposed under the administrative complaint filed against Daniel L. Greene. Service of notice of the hearing was made by hand delivery in accordance with Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as amended. The board, having heard testimony under oath, received evidence and heard arguments respective to all appropriate matters, thereupon issues its finding of fact, conclusions of law and order of the board as follows: That Daniel L. Greene is the holder of record of Certificate of Competency No. 22946; that the Board of County Commissioners of Collier County, Florida is the complainant in the matter; that the board has jurisdiction of the person of the respondent and that Daniel Greene was present at the public hearing and was not represented by counsel at the hearing on July 21 st, 2004. Number four, all notices required by Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as amended, have been properly issued. Number 5, Daniel Greene has failed to comply with the terms of the order imposed by this board at its hearing on February 18th, 2004. Conclusion of law: The board makes conclusions of law that Daniel L. Greene violated the order imposed on February 18th, 2004. The respondent disregarded said order imposed by the board. Order of the board: Based upon -- based upon the foregoing findings of fact and conclusions of law and pursuant to the authority granted under Chapter 489, Florida Statutes and Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as amended, by a vote of 5 in favor and 0 opposed, a majority of the board members present, the respondent has been found in violation as set out above. Further, as ordered by a vote of 5 in favor and 0 opposed, a 27 July 21, 2004 majority of the vote of the board members present, that the following disciplinary sanctions and related orders are hereby imposed upon the holder of Contractor Certificate of Competency No. 22946. One, the restitution in the amount of 6,000, payable to Mr. and Mrs. John Foster, is rescheduled to a rate of $300 per month, resulting in repayment over a period of 20 months. The payments shall be made by the 1 st of each month, beginning September 1, 2004, via a money order delivered to the Collier County contractor licensing staff. Number two, the probation set out in the previous order is revoked and it is hereby ordered that should any payment be delivered to Collier County more than seven days after its due date, the respondent's license shall be automatically revoked, or I might add "or no payment". Number three, upon payment in full, respondent shall be relieved of any other responsibility to the board. The parties hereto are hereby notified that the respondent has a right to request a rehearing in this matter. A request of rehearing shall be made in writing, shall be filed with the clerk of Collier County Board of Collier County Commissioners and served on any other parties within 20 days from the date of the board's written decision. You will get a written decision that I will sign and will be mailed to you. A request for rehearing shall be based only on the ground that the decision was contrary to the evidence or the hearing involved an error on the ruling of law which specifically the precise reasons thereto. The decision of the board, which is the subject of the rehearing request, shall remain in effect throughout the rehearing procedure, unless the board orders otherwise. And there is some other information in there about if you want to protest this or you want to appeal it, how you go about -- but that will be sent to you. And it's by certified mail, correct? 28 --.. July 21, 2004 MR. BARTOE: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. That's all I really need to do. MR. NEALE: You need to make a recommendation to the Florida board. Typically it would be a no action. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Recommendation. What we do to the Florida board, it is a county license, but he is registered with the state. Any further action by the state board required? MR. JOSLIN: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MR. BESWICK: I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There will be no recommendation to the state for any further action. Any questions? MR. GREENE: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good. Wish you well. I hope you prosper. MR. GREENE: I've got to get to work. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You bet. Takes care of old business. Public hearings. Ronald Elmore, d/b/a Elmore Painting and Decorating. Are you present? MR. ELMORE: Yes, I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come forward, sir. I need for you to state your name and be sworn in, please. MR. ELMORE: My name is Ronald Elmore. (Sworn was duly sworn.) 29 July 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And this is a Collier County case. Who's going to represent the county? MR. BARTOE: Robin Horn. And he should also be sworn in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Horn, if you would come up there, I'll have you sworn in. And then if you'll just take the case from there and tell us what happened. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. HORN: This case con -- are we ready? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, go right ahead. MR. HORN: This case concerns Elmore Painting and Decorating in that on the 28th of June Elmore Painting and Decorating was observed painting a house -- if this is televised, I'm not going to give the address of the house -- but he was observed painting a house. There were three individuals painting the house, to include Mr. Elmore. Mr. Elmore was asked to produce his workers' compensation, insurance, at which time he stated he was working on an exemption. He had an exemption for workers' compensation. A database check revealed that in fact that the exemption had expired and he was hence working without an exemption, which in fact made him an employee of his own company, along with the other two people who -- other -- two other individuals who stated that they had worked for Ronald Elmore for the last year, were paid $16 an hour, is what they told me. Actually, they were working on and off. As I understand it, Mr. Elmore wasn't engaged in the painting business for the entire year but on occasion during that year. My point being, for a year there were three individuals, counting Mr. Elmore -- and that his exemption was expired -- who were working without benefit of workers' compensation; hence, the responsibility lies if there were an accident, with the homeowner for any injuries that possibly would occur. However, I met with Mr. Elmore in the office later that day. He 30 July 21,2004 brought in with him Articles of Incorporation to incorporate his company, which provides for the two individuals who were on the job site as corporate officers with 10 percent each of the business, which would then in fact qualify all three of them for a workers' comp exemption, should he forward that paperwork to Tallahassee for appropriate action. That hadn't been done. The paperwork had been in his briefcase for whatever reason. I personally think it was probably sloppy business practices rather than perhaps an intentional violation, but that's just a thought. I might say, let me add this: As of the 20th, that was yesterday, we received notification from an insurance company that now Mr. Elmore does in fact have workers' compensation for himself and his two employees. So there it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Couple of questions for you, Mr. Horn. MR. HORN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What was the date that you found them on the job? MR. HORN: 28th of June. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And I notice here also, his comp card, did you mean workers' comp or -- MR. HORN: Workers' compensation exemption. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So his -- MR. HORN: All three. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He still has -- his competency card is not expired. MR. HORN: No, he's licensed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And then the other question that you can answer with your background, the thing we found is that most people who had exemptions do not realize that every single exemption in the State of Florida expired December 31, 2003; is that correct? 31 July 21, 2004 MR. HORN: A lot of people do not, that's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And they were sent notification, but some of the notifications didn't get there. MR. HORN: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All of them expired December 1, 2003, every single exemption, because they fell under that new law -- MR. HORN: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- which they gave them until July 1 to make that happen. MR. HORN: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That being the case, I don't understand the time frame between January 1 and July 1, the legal ramifications. Do you follow where I'm at? MR. NEALE: Yeah, and I'm -- I've looked briefly at the amendments to the workers' comp statute and I haven't fully researched it yet. There was sort of a, for lack of a better term, legal limbo there for six months. I believe that there was -- I really don't know what the intent of the legislature was, and as I say, I'm still researching that issue. I can report back to the board next month as to what that six-month period was. But I believe you're absolutely accurate, that they all expired January 1, and July 1 was really the drop dead date. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, January 1 was supposed to be the date that they automatically renewed under the new guidelines of 10 percent ownership and three people in a corporation. But because of a backlog of everyone filing for corporations, it couldn't happen, so we had an extension to July 1. It was extremely confusing. I'm just very thankful July 1 has come and passed. MR. HORN: Understood. Just let me point out that Mr. Elmore's exemption expired on November, '03. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh. Okay, different ball game. Okay. 32 July 21, 2004 MR. HORN: And his two employees were never exempt. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gotcha. Okay. Mr. Elmore, your response. MR. ELMORE: I did go to the building department and get the exemption forms and took them to Fort Myers, to Sally, and I had them all notarized and filled out for myself and the other two guys. I got up there and she informed me that I had been given the wrong papers. I have them right here. That she said these are the wrong forms for you. So what happened was, to be honest with you, it never got -- I didn't follow through on it and go back and get the correct forms and follow through on it. I'm not going to make any excuse. I've been traveling every month up to my mother's, and I'm just -- I'm not going to -- she's old, she's alone and she's ill. And I've been going up there every month. And I kind of got my priorities out of order. I mean, I put that before anything. And I shouldn't have. I should have taken care of this or had someone do it, but I didn't. So I don't really have an excuse -- that's not really an excuse, that's the reason. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you got the exemption, you got the incorporation done. MR. ELMORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now you've bought insurance. MR. ELMORE: Yes, I have. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any questions of either of the parties from the board? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's the county's recommendation? MR. HORN: My recommendation is I personally feel that Mr. Elmore needs to get his business practices together a little more. In that he's in compliance, I don't see a problem at this time because he in fact did come into compliance. I could only -- my only 33 July 21, 2004 recommendation is that he continue to stay in compliance and not let his workers' comp slip away and lap -- or lapse. But I think he's made the effort. Again, a little bit short in that this was just yesterday, and the 28th of June is when I caught him on the job site. So he needs to move a little quicker, in my opinion, on his business methodology. Other than that, he's in compliance, I think it's fine. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where did you find insurance? Through who? MR. ELMORE: ADP is doing my payroll and covering the comp and everything now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Because insurance is extremely hard to get right now. MR. JOSLIN: It's terrible. MR. GUITE': Tell me about it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And unless you have a $50,000 or more a year payroll, no insurance company will write you. MR. ELMORE: I had -- I did have comp on all the guys here a couple -- well, this goes back several years, because I haven't been doing the work that I did then. But I went with a company, and at this time I can't tell you what the name of them was, but I went through Brown and Brown, I got the comp and everything, and they carried my liability as well. And I was working on the job and doing the job in Provence over on Gulfshore, and they actually sent someone there from the underwriting company, I suppose, and he called me and wanted to see the job site or see what -- just what we did, to come into actually our work zone. So I said sure, I'll meet you there. And he came up in the elevator and he came in and looked around and said you don't have enough employees, we're going to cancel you. This was after they took a big chunk of money from me and I had made monthly payments to them. And I got on the -- I went on-line and wrote to Bill Nelson. I tried to follow through the proper channels to put a complaint in against them. I 34 July 21, 2004 did. And nothing happened. Not one thing happened. And they didn't cancel me for a claim or anything, it was just because they felt I didn't have enough employees. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Understand. MR. ELMORE: And that was the reason. And they sent me a letter saying that, stating that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's happened to thousands of people. MR. ELMORE: Yeah, I heard that later on. But I mean, my point is where do we go? Because I complained to the state, but nothing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Nothing can be done. There's 18,000 companies that couldn't get their insurance rewritten unless you have a premium of over -- I said payroll, they won't take you unless you have a premium over $50,000 a year. Because the average loss for -- in the State of Florida for a workers' comp injury, the average loss is $46,000. So why would they write a policy for 20,000, knowing that if you have one loss -- MR. ELMORE: It's not going to cover it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- they won't cover it. So it's across the board, 50,000 premium or up; otherwise, you go to leasing, which has a tremendous amount of drawbacks, or you go through the state fund. MR. GUITE': Which I understand is even more. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, which is more. MR. ELMORE: This company is not really a staff leasing company, but they're very similar. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, that is a nasty word. But just make sure that they make their payments and they do the withholding and you'll be fine. MR. ELMORE: Yeah, they're doing all that. And in the interim -- well, now what I will do is get the proper paperwork up there to 35 July 21, 2004 Sally and get the exemptions taken care of. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir, Mr. Horn? MR. HORN: Just to recognize a point, I would recommend Ronald Elmore in fact submit the paperwork to Tallahassee, his Articles of Incorporation, and go ahead and get those exemptions for his people. It's very simple to do. MR. ELMORE: It's cheaper, too. MR. HORN: It's certainly -- I can't understand that-- MR. ELMORE: That's because I've been running back and forth -- MR. HORN: -- I mean, it's been almost a year, however. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The only thing I'd say to that, though, is -- Mr. Lewis can comment to that -- do you allow exemptions on your jobs? MR. LEWIS: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: GCs will not allow exempted employees. MR. HORN: I understand that. That -- but that's one job -- I don't want to make excuses, but as a painter, you're going to probably be doing a lot of residential houses, and that's what -- what was happening here. But just trying to say the fellow might -- however, having said all that, I recommend that the case be dismissed -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. HORN: -- and that he's in compliance at this time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe? Oh, you looked like -- yeah, the problem with exempted employees working for a general contractor, if they get hurt, it goes right up to the GC's policy. MR. JOSLIN: I have a question, though. Let me just ask a question on that. We got a general contractor who has no employees, what -- does he have to carry workmen's comp also? MR. HORN: It would be my recommendation that he does. I just had a case the other day and I'll tell you what happened: Some 36 July 21, 2004 painters out of Miami were over here painting down on 951, a big, huge new complex. General contractor has an exempt status. These painters are sub-painters -- subcontractors of the contractor that he hired to paint the place. They had no workers' compo Neither did the contractor that hired the subcontractors. I wrote all three of them. First for -- in this case for hiring an unlicensed contractor for Collier County. They were out of Homestead. The point being, had I still been with workers' compensation, you've got people without insurance, they had no workers' comp insurance, the contractor that hired them had none and the general contractor was exempt. Well, folks, you're not exempt if you've got people out there with no insurance. That makes the general contractor statutory employer for all those people. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, and they will go to him personally and sue him for everything he owns. MR. LEWIS: You'll end up having workers' compensation insurance without actually having it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, you'll pay for it with your house and all of your assets. MR. ELMORE: Well, then, excuse me, does that mean that-- well, I know that the exemption thing comes -- I mean, it's legal to do that, I know that. But I suppose that some general contractors wouldn't accept it on their job sites. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know a general contractor that will accept an exemption anymore. MR. LEWIS: If they do, it's only by mistake. And just for Mr. Horn's reasons -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So hang on to your -- MR. LEWIS: -- it's way too much liability. MR. ELMORE: I mean, I don't do new construction, I just do residential repainting. MR. LEWIS: Just if I may, just thinking about that, Mr. 37 July 21, 2004 Elmore, think about yourself or one of your personnel getting actually hurt, falling off a ladder. There was a case that I know of of a gentleman coming down off a scaffold, he was two foot above the floor, actually fell, twisted, broke his leg in three or four different places. And as far as I know today I don't think he's still back to work yet, and that was probably 10 years ago. So something, a very minor fall can create extenuating circumstances to the person's health and their livelihood, even your own. For instance, if you get hurt on a job, this is very, very, very minor payment for the benefits that would be reaped from it. MR. ELMORE: Well, I think that I -- MR. NEALE: I can just give you a bit of testimony on a client that I once represented who did not -- let their workers' compensation insurance lapse. And they were not in the contracting business, they were in another business -- one of the employees wrenched his back. It was a continuing injury and it literally put this man out of business. It cost him over $200,000 over a period of time. MR. LEWIS: Absolutely. MR. ELMORE: I think I'm going to just forget the exemption at this time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Basically that's what they did with the new law. You can still get it for three people from a mom and pop, 10 percent ownership, but no one's going to let you on a job, no homeowner should let you on a job if you're exempt. And basically you're going to see exemptions go away. MR. BESWICK: To confirm it, Chairman Dickson -- MR. ELMORE: I think -- yeah, I see your point, I do. MR. BESWICK: -- I manage a homeowners' association of 850 homes. We won't allow anybody on the property with an exemption. MR. ELMORE: Okay, you've -- I've been enlightened today. I don't want the exemption anymore. MR. JOSLIN: But on the other hand, you know -- I mean, I 38 July 21, 2004 agree with the whole situation and the whole scenario that we're talking about with this workmen's compensation. But, you know, on the other hand, a whole lot of smaller businesses are really suffering bad now because they don't make a lot of money to begin with, they're a small mom and pop business, and now they're stuck with paying super, super astronomical premiums to keep in business to do their mom and pop business. MR. LEWIS: Talk to your legislators. MR. GUITE': Yeah, I think the legislature is going to have to come around and bring the workmen's comp back down where it should be. For instance, I can go to Georgia and file for workmen's comp under a general contractor and get three and a quarter percent rates. But here in Florida as a tile contractor I'm up over 12. It doesn't take -- it's no more dangerous to do work here in Florida than it is in Georgia. MR. JOSLIN: If you're going to fall, you're going to fall in Georgia or you're going to fall in Florida -- MR. LEWIS: It's the claims that are being paid out by the State of Florida. MR. JOSLIN: This is what it seems like the legislature's done to the workmen's comp situation, which is, I know everybody should have it, and naturally we do, but it is putting a lot of people that I've heard out in the world and in the industry of the working in a very, very bad situation where they can't afford workmen's compo They can't afford to pay -- MR. HORN: A lot of them can't even get it. MR. GUITE': We're going to end up in the same boat as California. MR. ELMORE: They won't write it. MR. JOSLIN: Again, what is this -- this is the big business routine or what -- only the a big businessman can make a profit in the country now? Obviously there must be -- 39 July 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Just so we don't let this go. We've had a great class. MR. JOSLIN: I tell it like I see it. MR. LEWIS: We had to be on our soapbox once. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, we had to get on -- I do know for a fact that Georgia has -- average claim is $18,000 less than the 46,000 for Florida. And I won't tell you where that extra $18,000 goes. MR. NEALE: In jest, you may want to take a tape of the last several minutes and deliver it across the hall to Senator Saunders' office so that he could hear -- MR. LEWIS: Amen. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I would not take a shot at anybody in a suit. Okay. Anything more on this hearing? (N 0 response.) MR. GUITE': I make a motion that we dismiss the case here-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let's first close the hearing. I need a motion to close the hearing. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. MR. NEALE: If the county withdraws the case, the board really needs to take no action. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, love it. Thank you, Mr. Neale. So we don't even need a motion? MR. NEALE: As long as the board is in agreement and doesn't want -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does everybody agree with the county -- MR. NEALE: As long as the board accepts the county's recommendation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: County doesn't want any fines or penalties, so -- he came into compliance. All of you agree? 40 -,., July 21, 2004 MR. LEWIS: Yes, agreed. MR. NEALE: It saves Mr. Dickson having to sign his name one more time, too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. I still have to go down and sign the last one. Very well. It's been an educational process, I know. MR. ELMORE: Yes, it has. And I just don't want the exemptions anymore. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hang on to that insurance, it's very valuable. A lot of people can't get it. MR. ELMORE: All right. Thank you very much, gentlemen. I appreciate it. Thank you, Robin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything else, Mr. Horn? MR. HORN: No. I might add this: If you have workers' comp, I recommend to any contractor you carry that with you. In fact, I believe you're supposed to carry that with you at all times. Also, I would make it part of my sales package. If it were me and I were selling a job, I would make sure that the homeowner knew that I had that as a sales point. Yes, I have workers' comp insurance. Here it is. The reason I say that is because the next guy that gives the bid may not have it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: True. The only thing I really commend Collier County for and the City of Naples is they stay on top of our workers' comp coverage. At least they do me, I don't know about the rest of you guys. But if I don't have my renewal in there promptly or they get a notice of cancellation, it shuts down the whole computer. You can't pull a permit, you can't do anything. So if there's a permit on the job -- am I safe in saying that, Mr. Balzano? If there's a permit on the job, the public can pretty well rest assured that those people that pulled the permit are -- do meet their insurance requirements. Now, if they hire someone else, you're at risk. But Collier County is good about that. 41 July 21, 2004 MR. HORN: If I may -- are we off the record? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. MR. HORN: I'll wait. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, we're on television, too. MR. HORN: I'll wait. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anything else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very well, let's close this hearing. Moving on. Reports. Mr. Bartoe, you wanted to discuss a citation? MR. BARTOE: Yes. As Mr. Horn and I were discussing this morning, if this case with Mr. Elmore could have been handled with a citation, it would be much simpler than, you know, bringing him here before the board. But for Mr. Zachary and Mr. Neale, well, we can find nothing in our citation which allows us to issue citations for not having proper insurance, to a licensed contractor. MR. NEALE: The problem is, my understanding, my reading of Section 489.127, which is the citation statute, is it specifically is applied -- it specifically was set up to apply to contractors who -- to unlicensed contracting. It was not set up to apply to contractors. Now, the thing that is provided for, and it's in our ordinance and also in the Florida statutes, is that the contractor licensing supervisor or designee shall issue a notice of non-compliance as the county's first response to a minor violation of any regulatory law, including this section, when it is reasonable for staff to assume that the violation at the time of the -- that the violator at the time of the violation was not aware of the provision that was violated or it can be assumed that it was not clear to the violator how to comply with the violated provision. Two, that the violation has not then resulted in economic or physical harm to any person. And three, the violation has neither adversely affected the public health, safety or welfare, nor created 42 July 21, 2004 any significant threat of any such adverse effect. The notice of non-compliance should identify the specific provision that was violated, should provide information on how to comply with that provision, and should specify a reasonable time for full compliance. The notice of non-compliance shall not be accompanied with any immediate threat of any monetary fine or any other disciplinary penalty, but may specify the failure of the violator to correct the violation within the time specified in the notice for compliance may result in disciplinary proceedings. Each violation that is not a minor violation is a major violation. So the county could come up with a, quote, unquote, minor violation form that would say here's what you're doing wrong, here's what you have to do to fix it and you've got 30 days to do so, or whatever. And frankly, the statute says that the county shall issue these in those circumstances, not may. MR. BAR TOE: I just feel that Mr. Horn could swamp this board with similar cases as we've had today. MR. HORN: I'll give you an example of that. I told you I had five people working yesterday from Cape Coral, no workers' comp insurance. Now, I don't know what qualifies as minor or major, but five people. And I asked them how long they've -- each one of these guys I asked, how long have you -- this is a normal conversation, how long have you worked here and how much do you make. The reason I ask those questions is that's what the penalty would be based on for the State of Florida. If you've worked there for three years, State of Florida will go back three years, pull your records, see how much money you've paid these people, and whatever the trade is, go to the appropriate scale for workers' compensation payment for that trade, whatever trade that you're involved in, like a roofer, I don't know what it is, $50, 60, 100, and whatever premium you haven't paid in the last three years, it's one and a half times that. We've had them up to $230,000 in penalties. I've had them right here in Collier 43 July 21, 2004 County down on Marco at 28, 13, $14,000 all the time. So I don't know if that qualifies as a minor or a major. MR. NEALE: Well, the criteria says, that I read before, the only criteria that you have to follow under the statute, which is the -- the violator doesn't know that they violated it or that they weren't sure how to comply, doesn't result in any economic or physical harm to any person and hasn't adversely affected the public health, safety or welfare or created any significant threat of such. In fact, in that case -- MR. HORN: It doesn't apply, because they know they're evading worker's compensation. MR. LEWIS: Yeah, they have to know because of the license. That's one of the major questions on the test. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Balzano? MR. BALZANO: What you get a lot of them are doing, especially the ones that do not require to pull a permit, they come in and renew their license or get a new license and they're told what they need for insurance. They'll get a policy sent in and they cancel it. So even if we cancel it in our system, they're still walking around with an active license because they're not pulling permits. So now on 11-0 they don't have insurance until their license comes up for renewal again. The computer automatically knocks them out as being inactive. But a painter or a drywaller who doesn't pull permits, know from 11-0 he doesn't have insurance because he hasn't pulled a permit, and his card is still saying active. So they know what they're doing. The thing is, if he's unlicensed, we can hammer him. The guy that's licensed doing the same thing as the unlicensed, we can't do anything to him. We have to bring him here. That's a waste of your time. MR. LEWIS: That's where most of your claims and activity come from. 44 July 21, 2004 MR. BALZANO: Especially now, the way the workers' comp is, I mean, we get it all the time where they can't get a company to write them, so they're out there running illegally and what are they supposed to do, go out of business? MR. HORN: I'd like to add just this: That when they obtain a leasing company, and I'm ABC Drywall and I put 10 of my guys on that leasing company, that means that my other 30 guys that I don't put on there, I'm not paying workers' comp for. I used to catch them all the time, every day here in Collier County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I was under the impression that workers' comp fraud was a third degree felony. Am I not correct? MR. HORN: Fraud is a felony. And I've been before the court here in Collier County. MR. BAR TOE: Who's going to enforce it? MR. HORN: However, the penalty -- I'd have to check the statute, but I don't think the penalties -- the penalties that we applied in the workers' comp enforcement itself rises to a fraud unless we actually pull it in and present it to the state's attorney for that. This is a penalty phase, we just write the penalty, minimum penalty $1,000 and $100 for the stop work order. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The other question I'm curious is whether we should be addressing comp or is that a state issue? Is it okay for us to address it on a county issue? MR. HORN: It may not be. I say that in that the state has the -- has people who actually do this and they just increased their staff. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They just added six more people, didn't they? MR. HORN: Correct. MR. BALZANO: Why are we enforcing the longshoremen's insurance? That's federal government. We -- Tom and I were at a seminar last month and they had a representative from the federal government there and he said he wasn't going to enforce it. But they 45 July 21, 2004 want us to do it. Isn't that what he said? MR. BARTOE: Yep. MR. GUITE': Save some people a lot of money. MR. BALZANO: Because they don't know if they should be enforcing it because the law was written in 1921. There wasn't -- Naples, Florida was a swamp, no one had a 100- foot boat in their backyard. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And it wasn't a-- MR. BALZANO: They want to get in on the act and get the premIums. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It wasn't a navigable waterway. Of course, the biggest problem I have there, though, is if you're working on a dock and you have all the insurance in the world and GCs don't know that their workers' comp doesn't cover them once they step off that seawall. MR. BALZANO: See, that's a fallacy, because up until the ugly snake raised its head with one company in town that happened to have the insurance that we're talking about, workers' comp were paying those claims. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They were? MR. BALZANO: Yes, they were. MR. GUITE': I remember that, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In fact, if you read the Jones Act, within three feet of the seawall you have to have longshoremen Insurance. MR. BALZANO: If you read the Jones Act, it applies to longshoremen. They were talking about protecting people working at docks where ships came in, not a guy building a pleasure boat. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It says all navigable waterways. MR. HORN: Please understand, navigable waterways could be a trickle, a trickle of water that leads to the ocean. 46 July 21, 2004 MR. BALZANO: In 1921 that isn't what the law meant. That's basically what they said at the seminar we went to. But no one will come forward and interpret the law. Supposedly there's legislation in the federal government to try and figure out who wrote the law in 1921, what he meant. Well, we know he didn't mean your private home on Marco Island or the City of Naples where you had your boat, they were talking about longshoremen. MR. LEWIS: That's the problem we've had consistently with all of our laws, it's context, taking something out of context. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Case law. That's where it all sits, is case law. MR. BALZANO: In our ordinance it says that you must have all insurance that is applicable under state law, that is required under law. Isn't that what it says? And the law now says you need workers' comp and you need longshoremen's insurance and liability insurance. So where do we stop enforcing it? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So Mr. Neale, you're telling me that we could come up with a form to enforce workers' compensation and set a fine for it? MR. NEALE: No. What all this is, is this is just a minor violation. There is no fine for it or anything like that. It's literally just a notice of non-compliance. MR. BAR TOE: And I think it's a major violation because they all are aware of what they need in the way of insurance. MR. NEALE: And specifically it requires that it be something that does not endanger the public health, safety or welfare or could potentially result in economic harm to someone. And certainly someone not carrying workers' compensation insurance doesn't meet either of those waivers. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I personally think if they don't have workers' comp, they're in violation of Collier County ordinance and they come before this board on a case. Do you agree? 47 July 21, 2004 MR. NEALE: It certainly -- typical of a lot of statutes that says if it's not minor, it's major. If it's major, the case should be brought to this board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And if he has a license -- or do we turn it to the state board? MR. BALZANO: No, the state, if you read the state, any state licensed contractors, the only -- what do they give us, three violations that we can go after a state contractor. It's for not having workers' comp -- not having proper insurance, fraud and willful code violations. The only three things that the state allows us to discipline their contractors, and one of them is insurance. So if the state says that we can do it, they don't want to do it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've just got a fear that Mr. Horn's going to fill this room each month. MR. HORN: You're absolutely correct. It goes without saying, however, if I do that and I have a state person right next to me who -- you see where I'm getting my drift, who has the -- MR. LEWIS: Jurisdiction. MR. JOSLIN: What's going to happen to him? MR. HORN: I mean, are we going to hit him twice? I don't think so. MR. NEALE: Well, if it's a license that this board has authority over, which is basically -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Everybody. MR. NEALE: -- everybody, you know, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This would be -- have to be a paid position. MR. HORN: Yes, it would, it would. Forty hours a week. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just say -- MR. HORN: Let me give you one scenario, and I'm finished, really, for real. When I used to work -- when I was in workers' comp, I worked 48 July 21, 2004 with Mike Ossorio and the fellows here. We would go on the job site, the contractor would say wait a minute, those aren't my employees, because I'm going to say you have no workers' compo They're not my employees, they're subcontractors. Licensing would say that's great, you just hired people working without a license in Collier County and they don't have a license, so they're getting a ticket and you're getting a ticket for hiring people without a license. You just told me that. It's either that or I take them with workers' compensation and they're really going to pay some money, not $300 a ticket or $500 but whatever workers' compensation they haven't paid for the last three years. And we ask for their records for three years. Now you're getting into their tax forms and that kind of thing, too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the state can put a stop work order on the job. MR. HORN: Immediately. MR. NEALE: Well, one other thing about it is there are only four grounds under which this board can obtain jurisdiction over state certified contractors, and one is failing or refusing to provide proof of public liability and property damage insurance coverage and workers' compensation insurance coverage as required by Florida statutes -- (Brief interruption.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How did that happen? Say that again. MR. NEALE: There's only four ways in which a state certified contractor comes under the jurisdiction of this board, and one of them is failing or refusing to provide proof of public liability and property damage insurance coverage and workers' compensation insurance coverage as required by Florida statutes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And willful code violation, and what was the -- MR. NEALE: Willful code violation. That they've committed 49 July 21, 2004 fraud or willful code violation and fraud. So there's four areas. And so the scenario that Mr. Horn could pack this place with every contractor in the county, whether registered or certified, is one that potentially is true. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I would just say with Mr. Horn's contacts that we let the state handle this issue, the fraud division of workers' compo MR. BALZANO: Well, we had a -- they were sending agents over from, I believe, Miami, who were coming over here regularly because they enjoyed working with us. And then the state changed the locations of the offices geographically. And now we have back to Fort Myers, I believe, and they for some reason don't like to come down here that often. Men did come over from Miami regularly. MR. NEALE: It is up to the discretion of Mr. Balzano and his staff whether to file formal charges. So the scenario could be, if they bring someone in on a complaint, they get them come into compliance, they don't have to file formal charges against them. MR. HORN: I have a question concerning the authority -- the scope of authority that we operate under. In order for us to, for example, compute what they normally would pay in penalties, there are records that we would have to ask for. By the way, in the state we ask for them. It's not a subpoena, we ask for them. So are we allowed -- I mean, what's the scope of our investigative authority? I don't think it's there, but I don't know. It is there? MR. BALZANO: They have to produce them within -- normal working hours, they have to produce them within 24 hours. MR. NEALE: Yeah, and there's a specific provision where the -- if you request their business records, they have to produce them within 24 hours. MR. HORN: That would help if, for example, we brought them before the board we could at that time say XYZ Company has evaded paying workers' or have not paid workers' compensation taxes for -- 50 ----.- July 21, 2004 if the state can say three years, I guess we could, too. I don't know that. But they've evaded -- this dollar amount for this construction entity or this field and they've evaded $38,000 in workers' compensation. MR. NEALE: And of course as you well know, a specific point of misconduct under Section 22-201 of the ordinance is No. 23, which is: Failing or refusing to provide proof of public liability and property damage insurance coverage and workers' compensation insurance coverage are all -- is a violation of the ordinance, so they have to provide you the proof. You don't have to find it, they have to provide it to you. MR. HORN: When I say records -- when I ask -- I'm going to -- what we would do is ask for their business records. MR. NEALE: But specifically, just trying to clarify, is they -- the burden is on the contractor to provide to county staff their proof of insurance coverage. You don't have to subpoena or ask for any records, all you have to do is say under the ordinance you've got to provide this, period. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have no idea who has the phone gOIng. MR. NEALE: There are phones up there. Has anybody hit one with their foot or -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Knocked one off? They're all -- MR. BAR TOE: I have a panic button here, you want me to push it? MR. HORN: Mr. Neale, that would be business records, we could ask for business records. MR. NEALE: You can ask for business records, but, you know, as I say, all you have to do is say pursuant to Collier County ordinance. You know, having a license to practice contracting is a privilege, not a right. And as part of having that privilege, they have agreed to comply with this ordinance. One of the things in 51 July 21, 2004 compliance with this ordinance is they have to provide to the county proof of their insurance, period. MR. BALZANO: And payroll records. MR. NEALE: And they have to provide payroll records -- MR. HORN: Right, that would be the business, other-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Has Mr. Perico been replaced yet? MR. BAR TOE: Sir, I'd like to introduce Mr. Bleu Wallace, who is acting interim building review -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like for him to come up. MR. BAR TOE: -- director until Mr. Perico's replacement can be found. MR. NEALE: I've known Mr. Wallace for quite a while. Bleu has taken -- he and I have worked together a number of times. He has taken on every job in the county at one time or another, I think. He has been director of tourism, he's been director of utilities, he's been director of records, and I think we couldn't have anybody better to be working with us. And this was completely unsolicited. I didn't even know Bleu had taken the job. But we couldn't have anybody better to be working with. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Bleu Wall? MR. NEALE: Wallace. MR. WALLACE: Wallace. For the record, Bleu Wallace. I'm the director of community development operations, which takes in addressing, the records room, graphics, all the zoning map updates, and also utility regulation and cable administration. And right now I'm kind of covering for -- since Ed Perico left -- I talked to him yesterday, he's doing fine. I can't get him back here, though. We had a one round of interviews and the administrator, Joe Schmitt, wished to cast the net a little further. And so we've gone out national now and advertised, and hopefully we -- that went out about a week and a half ago, the national advertising, and we're hoping to get some good applicants in. 52 July 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The reason I brought up the name-- and first of all, all of us knew Ed Perico for over 20 years that he worked here, and you won't replace him. But I think this is something that Mr. Balzano and you and the staff need to talk about, because if we start getting into workers' comp violation investigations, you don't have a large enough staff, and we will be having two and three-day meetings every two weeks in this room. This is -- I mean, why don't you try to save the Titanic with a tea cup. I'm not saying that it's not important, it is important, but I just think we need to double think twice before we open this box. MR. BALZANO: Well, what happens if you get the legitimate contractor who feels he lost the bid to a contractor that's not carrying proper insurance. And then if he feels we're giving him lip service, next thing you know, it's up here to the commissioners, and the commissioners are calling Mr. Wallace and Mr. Wallace is asking us to write a report on why we didn't do what this man wanted. And we end up doing the investigation and paperwork anyway, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well-- and I don't think we should change the scope of the way we've operated for the last 10 years, which has included that. But I know that you can go out to every major job site, which we just had a sting operation of in Southwest Florida of some 900 companies, but -- MR. BALZANO: We've done stings in conjunction with workers' comp and the DBPR together, and you would have to be present to see the other agencies in action of what their interest is and what it should be. At one particular time they were more interested in a contractor not having his numbers the proper size on his vehicle when we had contractors that are at 100 employees that were 1099. They were building a complex in North Naples and they brought them in from Texas. They went out writing tickets for numbers on fenders and did not cite one general contractor on-site. So their priorities aren't what our priorities are. They want us to do their job 53 July 21, 2004 is what it comes down to. And most of the seminars we've gone to, the feeling is the same from the other counties. MR. HORN: I would like to add that should we entertain any of these ideas, that I can guarantee you the State of Florida will have some -- will want input. They're not going to want to relinquish their turf on this, in my opinion. MR. JOSLIN: As far as workmen's comp goes, you're talking about? MR. NEALE: Well, and I -- while I haven't researched the issue, it's my belief, and I want Mr. Zachary's input on this, too, is that prosecuting someone for a license violation and prosecuting someone for a violation of the Workers' Comp Act probably can both be done. I do not believe it would be deemed double jeopardy, because one is acting on their license, which is a -- as I said before, a privilege granted by the state and the county. The other one is something that's required if they're going to exercise that privilege. So I think really you're looking at two different elements. What do you think? MR. ZACHARY: Without having done any research either-- MR. NEALE: Yeah, and I've done no research, this is just off the top of my head, so -- MR. ZACHARY: I think you're getting pretty close to maybe double jeopardy there, so I'm not sure that you can do both, when one -- violation of one is the reason you're -- MR. NEALE: Prosecuting the other. MR. ZACHARY: -- prosecuting the other. MR. NEALE: Yeah. And it's one of those issues that I know it's a concern of Mr. Horn's and, you know, would be a concern of the state, too. MR. HORN: I don't think we could do it without using-- without utilizing the court system that's already set up by the state for handling workmen's compensations, adjudication of their cases. And 54 July 21, 2004 they have that already set, it's already in place. I'm sure we would be out of line if we were to set up a dual -- it just wouldn't happen, I don't think. MR. NEALE: Although the board does have, you know, it's very specific in 489 and in our ordinance that the board does specifically have the power to prosecute people on failure to have workers' compensation insurance. So, you know, but you're prosecuting them on their license at that point and finding it as a violation of their license. MR. LEWIS: Right. There would be no way that we could impose penalties or fines such as workers' comp at the state -- MR. NEALE: No, it's not within this board's purview to be able to impose a fine of the size that the workers' comp -- MR. BALZANO: An unlicensed contractor, we can give him a $300 fine. A licensed contractor, we can't give him anything. MR. LEWIS: He has to come before the board-- MR. NEALE: Well, if he comes before the board, it can be up to $5,000. MR. LEWIS: Right. MR. NEALE: Just one -- while we're on the same topic, for Mr. Horn's benefit and for the benefit of the board, under Section 22-168 of the ordinance is the business and financial records section, and it states: The contractors -- well, paraphrase -- shall maintain complete financial and business records for the immediately preceding three years at their licensed place of business. They include minutes of corporate meetings, business contacts, telephone records, insurance policies, letters of complaint, notices from government entities, bank statements, canceled checks, records or accounts receivable and payable, financial statements, loan documents, tax returns, employee records in all other business and financial records the contractor maintains in the course of business. The contractor shall allow the contractor licensing supervisor or his designee access to all 55 July 21, 2004 documents referenced in this section upon demand and during normal business hours. So you just call up and say I need to look at them, they've got to let you look at them. MR. HORN: Actually, what we used to do is to have them bring them in, but we had a form, the appearance of a -- it's a request form to bring the records in. However, just to add to that, so for example, say they did bring those in. Now what? It takes quite a bit of time to go through those, all those records, and you create a file that's going to be -- a case file that's going to be approximately 30, 31 pages. MR. NEALE: Now, there is one thing that also is provided in here, is that copies of any documents requested shall be provided by the contractor upon payment of reasonable reproduction costs. So they have to make copies for you if you want them. MR. BALZANO: What we've done in the past is you get a list of the workers at the job site, their names, and then I would go, or Tom, we would go to their place of business and say give me the W4s for these people. And you'd be surprised how many of them don't even know who these people are. They're on their job working but they don't have a W 4. You don't go in there and ask for their bank statement, you go in and ask for the particular information we need. You don't have to go and haul in every -- MR. HORN: Well, you need everything if you're going to compute a penalty in the amount that we were talking about. MR. BALZANO: That isn't what we're talking about doing. We're talking about bringing them into compliance and giving them a fine like an unlicensed contractor. MR. HORN: Like a $300 fine, sure. And that cuts this right to the quick. And that's very easy to do. MR. NEALE: Unfortunately, there's not a provision in the statute for that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So basically we've had this 56 .."- July 21, 2004 discussion and we're right back where we were. MR. NEALE: I mean, the -- now, the possibility, you know, is the contractor enforcement officers can go in and say, you know, here's the deal, you either comply or you are going to be brought in front of the board for a case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We would take them in front of the board or let the -- make the state aware of it and let them handle the problem. MR. LEWIS: I think part of what was brought up today is the fact that there's no quick and simple resolve to a situation for a licensed contractor. They have to do -- staff would have to prepare and do a lot of research, a lot of work to bring a case before the board. And of course the board, as we've mentioned earlier today, with our high payment level on salaries here, would have to sit through the entire case, observe and adjudicate from there. Part of the situation, I think what I'm getting from staff, is that they would appreciate, if there's some way that the board might recommend to the commission that might, if acceptable to the board of commissioners, might recommend to the state licensing board to put in place some type of simple response or citation form with penalty that we wouldn't have to go through these things in the long form. MR. BAR TOE: That's correct, Mr. Lewis. As we said, quick citation, $300 fine for an unlicensed. It would be nice if we could do the same for the licensed. MR. LEWIS: Right. And Mr. Neale, would that be something that the board could recommend to the county commissioners that they would pursue to the state licensing board? Then I would -- after our conversation and discussions here today, I would certainly make a motion to the board to consider presenting fact -- or a request to the county commissioners in that respect, that they pursue with the state licensing board some type of citation and fine situation for licensed 57 July 21, 2004 contractors for not having the proper insurance. MR. HORN: If I may add, that would be excellent if in fact that would happen, in that it also would reinforce the state's efforts when they -- for example, if they find the same people out there when they check their records they -- when they go before their tribunal or their court system, their adjudicators, say this person has already in Collier County been caught without workers' compensation, that would help to enhance their case as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to make a suggestion. Tell me if I'm wrong, Mr. Zachary. Is that something -- something that you should take up with the county attorney? And can we do that now or do we need to wait until we do another codified revision? MR. ZACHARY: I think it's going to take an amendment to the ordinance. So in that direction usually comes to a -- to do anything with an ordinance, we like to get direction from the Board of County Commissioners. So we can always talk to them individually in the meantime or one of you can or one of staff can, to further this recommendation, that we have some sort of citation we could give to them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who's the chairman now? MR. ZACHARY: Ms. Fiala. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Fiala. And Mr. Henning has always -- not Henning -- MR. JOSLIN: He was chairman last year. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He was. Yeah, Mr. Henning has also been -- is that something you feel comfortable doing, Mr. Balzano? MR. BALZANO: I think it should come from the board or the attorney for the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to do -- I'm leaving town Monday and I'm gone for three weeks. So what I'd like to do is find someone who's willing to talk to the board members or the county attorney before the next meeting and get direction. 58 July 21, 2004 MR. BALZANO: Why don't we do this: When you get back, you and I can approach them together from the two levels, and you also as being a contractor, and we can, on the problems that we've had with the unlicensed and the licensed trying to, you know, get around buying the proper insurance. And it is a safety factor to the homeowners and the taxpayers. MR. ZACHARY: You know, the next meeting is -- probably won't get it done by the next meeting, which is next Tuesday. And then the board is not -- doesn't meet again until September. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, that gives us plenty of time. You and I can get with them. And that's your recommendation, that we go talk to the county commissioners? MR. ZACHARY: And the recommendations come from this board that we institute some sort of mechanism to cite the licensed contractors for workers' comp or insurance violations that wouldn't -- so it wouldn't have to be brought before this board. You could have a ticket like we have -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So in other words, what we should do today is get a motion that -- to go forward and have the meeting with county and see if we can get an ordinance change? MR. ZACHARY: I think that would be appropriate. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Wallace? MR. WALLACE: For the record, Bleu Wallace. What I would prefer is that you direct your staff to research this and draft an executive summary to go before the Board of County Commissioners and bring that back to you at your next meeting, let you review it and make sure that's what you want to do. That way we can just add it onto the agenda, coordinate it with Joe Schmitt, the administrator over at community development, and make sure you're aware of what's going forward with your recommendation to the board. And then when the board reconvenes after the summer break, 59 July 21,2004 they can give staff direction. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, that would work, because we will have an August meeting that we could do this on and then we have something in writing to take with us. MR. BALZANO: I'm not an attorney; I don't know what should be in there. I'd have to sit down with Mr. Zachary. MR. ZACHARY: Well, I think that's a good recommendation, the executive summary. And the board could look at that and say go ahead. Then we would have the direction to amend the ordinance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that okay with you as acting director that -- MR. WALLACE: Yes, sir, I prefer to do it that way. That way we get the administrator and the county manager involved also and so they're up to speed on that. Also gives this board an opportunity to look at -- make sure that all the T's are crossed and the I's are dotted on your recommendation you're making to the Board of County Commissioners. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you and Mr. Balzano can get together with -- MR. WALLACE: With Mr. Zachary and Mr. Schmitt and -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Between now and the next meeting. MR. WALLACE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. NEALE: Just I'd like to bring up one more point while everyone was talking. In reviewing 489, 2003, in 489.113, subsection 4C, it is provided by the statute that the local government may also deny issuance of or may suspend any outstanding building permit where a contractor fails or refuses to provide proof of public liability and property damage insurance coverage and workers' compensation insurance coverage. I'd want to do a little bit more research on it, but that could be the club that the enforcement staff is looking for, is if the guy doesn't 60 '- July 21, 2004 have workers' comp coverage, you suspend his permit. MR. BALZANO: But see, the problem is it's not your major trades that are running without the insurance, it's your specialty contractors. They don't pull permits. So after they renew their license, they never have to show proof of insurance again unless they're going to work on a condominium. And a lot of the condominium managers do not ask for that. A lot of them do. They make them show proof of insurance before they come in their building. So the major trades we're holding to one standard and the others we're letting them slide out the door. And they're the ones that you're finding. It's your tile setters and your carpenters and your painters and drywallers that are slipping away without the insurance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to go with the recommendation that the three of you get together and come up with a written executive response, because I would love for you to be able to issue a citation. MR. BALZANO: It would make us -- a lot easier for us. It would be fairer to everybody. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Citation against licensed contractors also without a case having to be prepared. Cases we could handle real quick, either you had the insurance or you didn't have the insurance. But the paperwork on you guys, unbelievable. Any more discussion on this issue? That will come before us next meeting. Mr. Bartoe, if you will be sure and have Maggie add that on discussion or old business, wherever it applies. MR. JOSLIN: Does it have to be in the form of a motion? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think so. Do we need a motion, Mr. Neale, at this point? MR. NEALE: You probably want, for good order's sake, to make a motion so that there's such a direction. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make the motion as he stated. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. You made the what? 61 July 21, 2004 MR. JOSLIN: I'll make the motion as you stated, that Mr. Wallace and Mr. Zachary and Mr. Balzano get together and put this executive meeting before us. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Second? MR. BESWICK: I'll second it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have one other old item, Mr. Bartoe, that keeps trying to fall through the cracks, and I'm not going to let it fall through the cracks, and that's Experior. We have had numerous complaints -- Mr. Wallace, as well -- on Experior testing, that they don't offer the testing in Spanish, they don't offer it in tutors. We've had countless complaints. And when we made a request for Experior to come before this board, we were snubbed, were we not, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BAR TOE: I was. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We were then. And we want -- there's -- we can change the testing. By Collier County ordinance we can change who administers tests for Collier County. MR. BAR TOE: And next time we amend the ordinance, I think there's a lot of discussion to be made in this area. I believe the ordinance, correct me, Mr. Neale, if I'm wrong, states Experior or equivalent? MR. NEALE: Yeah, or other recog -- I can give you the exact language. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Qualified agents -- qualified and recognized agencies. MR. BAR TOE: As Mr. Balzano told you, he and I were just at 62 July 21, 2004 a seminar up in Sarasota, and we do have information on another company that did impress us up there. Another thing to consider in amending the ordinance is every trade says three-hour test in this field, two-hour business and law, three-hour test in this field. This other testing agency is approved by the state and everything else, and a lot of their tests are hour, hour and a half, two hours. Why does our ordinance have to say three hours? MR. NEALE: Yeah, I think it could say -- you know, based on that it could say something to the effect that -- MR. BAR TOE: Based -- an approved test. MR. NEALE: -- a recognized, approved test in the trade and a recognized, approved -- MR. BAR TOE: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And they offer it in Spanish or with a prompter. MR. BALZANO: And they will write any exam we want for any trade. It's Gainesville Testing, I believe. MR. BAR TOE: I believe that's the name of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I would love for someone to impress this board. MR. BALZANO: We could ask them-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have been unimpressed thus far. MR. BALZANO: We spoke to them. We have his card. He said that he would come down and speak to whoever he had to address. Maybe we can get him to come to the next meeting. MR. NEALE: Yeah, I think that would be a good idea. Also, in Section 489, there was an amended made again in the last year or so, 489.113, Subsection 7, that addresses some of the issues that this board has wrestled with in the past. Says: If an eligible applicant fails any contractor's written examination, except the general and building contractor's examination, and provides the 63 July 21, 2004 board with acceptable proof of lack of comprehension of written examinations, the applicant may petition the board to be administered a uniform oral examination subject to the following conditions: A, the applicant documents 10 years of experience in the appropriate construction craft. B, the applicant files written recommendations concerning his or her competency in the appropriate construction craft. And C, the applicant is administered only one oral examination within a period of one year. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wow. I didn't know that was there. Where did you find that? MR. NEALE: It's 489.113(7). CHAIRMAN DICKSON: First time you've read that, too. MR. NEALE: It's a very recent amendment, so -- that's something that I think with the suggestions being made, it may be time to -- for this board to consider making some amendment recommendations to the ordinance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Appropriate time would be with this other recommendation. Because I'm sick and tired of people that can't pass the test just because of a language barrier. And I'm sorry, but this is the 21 st Century. MR. BAR TOE: And the ordinance has not been amended since 2002. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. So are we out of line to request that individual to come before the board? MR. BAR TOE: No, we're not. He indicated to Mr. Balzano and I he'd be very happy to. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that in agreement with you, Mr. Balzano? MR. BALZANO: We'll give him a call, invite him to the next meeting. MR. JOSLIN: Could you send him some kind of a formal letter, where you would actually send something to him? 64 July 21,2004 MR. BAR TOE: I'm sorry? MR. JOSLIN: Send him some kind of a formal letter -- MR. BALZANO: I'll send him an e-mail. MR. JOSLIN: -- of -- e-mail or whatever? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does the board want -- MR. BARTOE: He wants our business, I'm sure he'll be here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does the board want to spend time on this? MR. JOSLIN: Sure. August would be a great month for it, I think. That way we'll be ready for September. MR. NEALE: It's a pretty light month. The other thing that I might suggest to the board, particularly, I think Mr. Joslin and Mr. Dickson were around for the last cycle prior to 2002, but -- is that several years ago, I think it was the 2000 amendment cycle, the board took it upon itself to hold workshops because they did a major revision of the ordinance at that time, separate and apart from the regular board meeting. And I would just put that out for a thought on the board's part, if that would be something they'd want to consider at this point in time, either separate and apart from the board meeting or a separately noticed workshop at the same time as the board meeting. Because if -- those members that were not members of the board at the time, there were a number of specialty trades that were being added or subtracted from the ordinance at that time, and so there was a lot of testimony from people who were members of those trades or non-members of the trades who wanted to become members as to the necessity for the addition of those various trades. So, you know, it may be a time for the board to get some public input on a lot of these issues. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't disagree with you, I'm just trying to figure out a timetable. Should we talk to this individual first in the board setting? And then we're talking about -- MR. NEALE: Starting another amendment cycle, basically. 65 July 21,2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- ordinance amendments after that? MR. NEALE: Well, that's totally the pleasure of the board and the recommendation of staff. It's just that one thing I know having gone through the last amendment cycle is it's a fair amount of heavy lifting for county attorney staff and contractor staff and myself to get the amendments done. So if it can be sort of -- the board can think about between now and the next board meeting a time line for beginning an amendment cycle, it would help us because then we can start looking at the ordinance and working on suggestions or recommendations. Because I believe last time one of the things that was done is staff and the county attorney and myself all made recommendations to the board as to proposed changes all in one batch so that it could be done fairly expeditiously. And the board, of course, had its own recommendations. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just have pros and cons on workshops, dependent on the issue, but the majority of time we didn't get responses. MR. NEALE: Except there was the one time when we had to move out of here because we had more people than we could fit in here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, that was longshoremen. MR. NEALE: Well, that -- no, that was even one of the trades. This was back -- I remember we had to have the meeting in the supervisor of elections building. MR. BALZANO: On the longshoremen, at that seminar that Mr. Bartoe and I went to, we're still one of the few counties that enforces the longshoremen. The others are really fighting it. In Collier County our name kept coming up that we were enforcing this. They were using us at their meeting. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I heard that at a state continuing education class as well. MR. BALZANO: What's that? 66 July 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In a state continuing education class I took for two days outside of Collier County, even the instructors said there's only one county in the State of Florida that's enforcing longshoremen, and it's Collier County. MR. BALZANO: And that was slid in on our last -- when we did the ordinance over -- we, meaning the board and staff -- we had no idea that that was put in. That was slid in after we had left the workshop. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But at the same time, this particular instructor proceeded to talk about the Jones Act and longshoremen insurance and made the comment that Collier County is exactly correct in doing what they should be doing, and the other counties are the ones that have a problem. And I've always maintained that Collier County takes lead in the building industry anyway. MR. BALZANO: But it's pretty sad when the representative of the federal government on the Jones Act and longshoremen couldn't answer our questions either. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That doesn't surprise me. Anything else? Anymore business? Next meeting is when? August 18th. I will be back by then. MR. NEALE: Just a quick aside on the ordinance amendments. Mr. Zachary and I were just kicking it around. We would both feel comfortable in setting a goal of having the amendments completed by this board and recommended to the county commission by December. I think that's how long it would really take. So if that meets with everyone's approval? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't see a problem, if we do that, what you three are going to do, and then we hear from this other testing agency. MR. NEALE: And then we'll review 489 changes and some other issues. You know, I'll review my notes for the past couple of years and see if there's any issues that seem to keep being thorny for 67 July 21, 2004 the board and put those in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? Anything more? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Entertain a motion to adjourn. MR. JOSLIN: So moved. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MR. BESWICK: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Approved. Bye. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11 :02 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, Chairman 68