CAC Minutes 07/16/2004 R
July 16, 2004
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER
COUNTY COASTAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE
Naples, Florida, July 16, 2004
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Coastal Advisory
Committee in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business
herein, met on this date at 1 :30 PM in SPECIAL SESSION in Building "F
of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following
members present:
CHAIRMAN: Ron Pennington
Murray Hendel
James Snediker
John Arceri
Paul Sullivan
Tony Pires (Excused)
Graham Ginsberg (Excused)
John Sorey III (Excused)
ALSO PRESENT: Ron Hovell, Utility Engineering Dept.
Dr. John Staiger, City of Naples
Maria Bernal, Tourism
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AGENDA PACKET INDEX
COASTAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING
COLLIER COUNTY, FLORIDA
FRIDAY, JULY 16,2004
1 :30 p.m.
I. CALL TO ORDER
II. ROLL CALL
III. CHANGES AND APPROVAL OF AGENDA
IV. PUBLIC COMMENTS
V. APPROVAL OF CAC MINUTES
A. Approval of minutes of June 10, 2004......................................................... Pg.l
VI. NEW BUSINESS
A. Election of Vice-Chairman. .......... ............................. .............. .............. ........... ..Pg. 11
B. Recommendation for Collier County Vacant Seat............................................. ... .....Pg. 12
VII. OLD BUSINESS
A. County / City of Naples Beach Renourishment Update...............................................................Pg. 16
B. Hideaway Beach Renourishment Update ....................................................................................Pg. 31
VIII. PUBLIC COMMENTS
IX. ANNOUNCEMENTS
X. COMMITTEE MEMBER DISCUSSION
XI. NEXT MEETING DATE/LOCATION
A. Joint Coastal Advisory Committee and Tourist Development Council Meeting
September 9,2004, BCC Board Room
XII. ADJOURNMENT
July 16, 2004
I. The meeting was called to order by Chairman Ron Pennington at 1 :30
PM.
II. Roll Call:
Roll call was taken with Mr. Ginsberg, Mr. Sorey III and Mr. Pires being
excused. A quorum was established.
III. Changes and Approval of Agenda
Add VII. A. (1) Amendment to Coastal Planning and Engineering Task.
Mr. Arceri moved to approve the agenda with addition of the
Amendment. Second by Mr. Sullivan. Carried Unanimously 5-0.
IV. Public Comments - None
v. Approval of CAC Minutes
A. Approval of Minutes of June 10,2004.
Mr. Hendel was in attendance - his name needs to be added to the
Attendance Sheet. Mr. Hendel moved to approve the minutes of June
10,2004 as amended. Second by Mr. Pennington. Carried
unanimously 5-0.
VI. New Business:
A. Election of Vice-Chairman
Mr. Pennington nominated Mr. Arceri as Vice Chairman. Second by
Mr. Hendel. Being no other nominations, nominations were closed.
Carried unanimously 5-0.
B. Recommendation for Collier County Vacant Seat
The position was re-advertised as there was only one applicant at the time.
There are now three applicants. Mr. Pennington gave his opinion of the
excellent credentials Mr. Roellig has for serving on the Committee.
Mr. Snediker nominated Mr. Roellig for the vacant seat on the CAC
Committee as a recommendation to the BCe. Second by Mr. Arceri.
Mr. Arceri mentioned ifMr. Roellig is approved for the position and
Pelican Bay becomes part of the City, he would no longer be an eligible
member and be removed. Carried unanimously 5-0.
VII. Old Business
A. County/City of Naples Beach Renourishment Update - Ron Hovell
Mr. Hovell informed the Committee they still have a number of
outstanding issues. The following was part of his presentation of the
update.
. Hardbottom data is the biggest issue.
. Need to deal with noise & work hours
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July 16,2004
· Easements - a few properties are not allowing an easement. Will
discuss concerns. Need assistance from CAC members to contact
organizations for community support.
· Erosion Control Line
· Stonn Water Outfalls
· Federal Sand Lease
Mr. Hovell read an e-mail from Coastal Planning & Engineering reporting on a
meeting that they held yesterday with Senior Marine Biologist and DEP
representative that is reviewing the application. Keys points ofDEP's concerns
are impact to Marine habitat and mitigation. The 2 types of potential impact
discussed were the direct coverage by the fill of the Hardbottom and the increase
of femoral impact to the reef.........
Femoral means there are some portions of Hardbottom that are covered by the
shifting sand at anytime.
Part ofDEP does want the project to go forward this winter. However, Mr.
Hovell doesn't feel they understand the complete bidding requirements and the
timeframe etc. They have explained it to them and all the ramifications of the
timing, but still not sure they get the whole picture.
Park Shore is about a mile and a quarter long and wish to extend the area to make
it 3 miles long into Clam Pass Park. The extensions bring the project into areas
where the near shore Hardbottom is closer to the project area than other areas.
Their (DEP's) concern is extending the project.
Mr. Pennington mentioned he spoke with Mike Steven - Coastal Engineering.
Mr. Steven said they did not experience any encroachment on the Hardbottom
area. When Mr. Pennington told him DEP said they had done so, Mr. Steven
stated it was not a factual statement. Mr. Pennington also met with
Representative Goodlette and told him of the concerns. Rep. Goodlette has strong
ties in the area and was interested in helping in any way he can.
Mr. Pennington mentioned they were told in the RAI-3 they were to submit
drawings and cut down the area of nourishment and felt they may have to do that.
Mr. Hendel asked about the time schedule.
Mr. Hovell doubted they would be able to start by December and lucky if they do
it this winter. Maybe with political pressure they may get a pennit issued in less
than 90 days from the time they accept the application complete. The question is
can they do the work before they have to get off the beach by April 15th. If they
go beyond the first week of
December it would be very risky with the typical winter weather patterns.
Mr. Hendel then asked if they should just plan for next year.
Mr. Hovell responded he is basically starting to plan for next year. If they all
resign themselves that it will be next year and they are done with proceeding, then
DEP looks at other projects and they may not get their pennit for another 9
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July 16, 2004
months to a year. They need to continue to press in hopes of doing it this winter-
if they do not get a permit until December or January, which is too late, they will
at least have the permit in hand.
Biggest concern is the condition of the beaches now and what conditions they will
be in the next year and a half. They are in better shape now than they were in
1995 before the last project - then there was no beach.
Mr. Hovell stated they need to put all the things they are going to do in the
Contract Documents. Once complete, time has to pass for final permit If they
can communicate with monitoring etc. that's great, but ifno permit is received
until November and then they try to go for bids - they have missed it.
Mr. Hendel was concerned about starting the project, not finishing and all the
complaints they will receive from the residents. He wondered if they did start and
couldn't finish if all the equipment etc. would be removed from the beach.
Mr. Hovell responded they can allow them to start as soon as possible; which
would probably be November 1st but felt they have already missed that deadline.
The other thing is they have to make sure they get the best qualified contractor.
Mr. Pennington mentioned if the beach is shortened, there would be less sand to
move.
Turtle monitoring and the winter weather situation was discussed. Cost increase
was discussed if the proj ect is not started on time.
Park Shore Drive area was shown and discussed with the possibility of cutting out
the northern portion of 85 feet. Mr. Hovell wanted to fulfill Parks & Rec's
desires of seeing more beach width at Clam Pass Park. They did not want to
compromise on the northern and southern limits around Clam Pass; they would
rather compromise on the width to stay away from impacting the Hardbottom.
Mr. Hendel stated if they are going to do it - they should do it right and do it all
the way. He would object to having it done and not going north to Park Shore all
the way to Clam Pass.
Mr. Hovell responded that is their goal and they might compromise a bit on the
width but not the length of the project. It sounds like they may come up with a
small mitigation plan which could cost them up to $lM which is not in the
budget.
From August 30, for the three month period, DEP issues a Notice of Intent to
Issue a Permit. It then has to be published in the Federal Register and then they
notify a number of interested Federal & State Agencies. Then 30 or 60 days they
have the permit that is not issued until they receive all the comments. Those
comments then may have to be incorporated into the permit conditions. Their
track record, as he mentioned earlier, is like 110 days.
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July 16,2004
Dr. Staiger stated they have to provide Fish & Wildlife Service and the CORP
and EP A 30 days to respond and DEP has to provide the Fish & Wildlife
Conservation Commission a similar time period. If they get unhappy, they will
say they don't have time to evaluate it and recommend denial until the time the
need is given to them. If they are concerned about Hardbottom and it is not
addressed in the responses, they can do that.
One thing crucial, with City Council support, is to push for as long a project as
they can get. The longer the project, the more stable the beach is.
Mr. Hovell stated it is a risk to award the Contract without a permit.
Mr. Pennington suggested they move forward, work diligently to get things in
place and he will do what he can and also work with Rep. Goodlette on meetings
etc.
Mr. Hovell stated the permitting agency will not tell the County to exclude the
north part of Park Shore. If they continue to not like that portion, they will
continue to send a Request for Additional Information to make them modifY the
application or deny the application. They would make them change the
application. Everyone would be opposed to changing the application.
Mr. Hendel would oppose the whole package if they had to change the
application.
If that had to be done, Mr. Hovell would call a special meeting and discuss it with
the City Council and Board of County Commissioners
Mr. Hovell said the meeting in Tallahassee covered this particular subject. The
letter written objected to the quantity of material in that area. They have agreed to
scale it back and not delete the project limits, just less wide. Less than 85 feet.
Funding was discussed. Mr. Hovell stated in November/December they went
through the BCC to get $100,000 set aside to answer requests for additional
information from the State and have gone through two rounds. Coastal Planning
& Engineering suggested $30,000 for, hopefully, the final RAI. An Executive
Summary has been written and will try for the July 27th BCC Agenda. This is a
Time & Materials Contract.
Mr. Arceri moved to amend to allow up to $30,000 more for the consultant to
answer the DEP RAI. Second by Mr. Sullivan. Carried unanimously 5-0.
B. Hideaway Beach Renourishment Update
· Different issues - Mangroves, Outstanding Waters,
Rookery Bay and the Sand Source.
· Good Communications with DEP for minor tweaks to help insure this
is the last RAI for Hideaway.
· If all things stay on track and 90 days hold true, mid-November they
could have a permit.
· 100 days for the sand.
· T -Groins - not sure on log time
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July 16, 2004
The State recognizes they need to do something. The permits for the temporary
T -Groins had been extended by two years, but not fully extended. They are not
permitted to truck in sand, so if they do not get the other permit, they do not have
permission to truck in sand this winter. They are extending it to the point they
need to continue monitoring it. Won't make them remove the temporary T-
Groins in advance of having a new permit.
So many things are up in the air. In talking with the engineers, they are always
optimistic, but that is not always the case. Discussion followed on awarding the
Contract.
There were questions concerning the referendum this fall for Hideaway. The Vice
Chairman of the Taxing District was in attendance. He was asked for a
clarification.
Mr. Eric Breckson - Vice President of the Special Taxing District of
Hideaway Beach - a meeting was held that day on the subject. The referendum
will be August 31 st. Eligible voters will be those that are registered Florida
voters living in Hideaway Beach. They will do a mailing to all residents of
Hideaway because they are not privy to the information as to what the registration
is. The Superintendent of Elections told them unless they are a candidate running
for office, that information is not available to them. It will be by absentee ballot
. for the residents that are not in Florida by August 31 st. Everyone will get a
sample ballot and instructions on how to request an absentee ballot. This is a
regular County Election voting at their precinct. This requires a simple majority
of those voting and this is a Municipal Election and has nothing to do with the
Hideaway Beach Assoc.
Mr. Hovell read portions of a draft letter written to DEP. They talked about the
permit fees being an issue and the County paying it. Talked about construction
plans and specifications - stated they revised them and are working with
Humiston & Moore Engineers and the City on their project. Important part he
read was as follows: "It was adjusted to avoid potential impact to the sea grasses
identified to further detailed investigation as requested by DEP." Talked about
Mangrove issues, permit drawings, geotechnical analysis, overfill ratios, where in
the borrow area the sand is going to come from, (making modifications on the
shifting of sand). Discussion on endangered species and the Turbidity Control
measures.
He is pretty confident this will be the last report. State should have it on Monday
or Tuesday.
Discussed having a joint meeting in August or September with Tourism. Will
hold off until further clarification.
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July 16,2004
Mr. Hovell mentioned there has been a lot of concern on Wiggins Pass and he
received the Wiggins Pass Annual Monitoring Report and will make it available
on the County's Website.
VIII. Public Comments - None
IX. Announcements
Mr. Pennington mentioned one ofthe things on the RAI-3 was concerning
the storm drains in Naples. He asked Dr. Staiger ifhe would respond.
Mr. Hovell stated Steve Keene said the questions seem to be focused - not on
the functionality of the storm water pipes - but whether they impede lateral
access up and down the beach. As long as they could show it doesn't interrupt
the public's ability to use the beach, they would be satisfied. Future changes
will be a separate subject.
Dr. Staiger reported the following:
· Coastal Planning Engineering is helping them deal with outfall issues.
On hold until they get some guidance from DEP on how to proceed.
· Questions dealt with Outfall in preventing any lateral access along the
beach and they do not. They stick far enough out and do not create
any washout or gully.
· Potential of becoming derelict? They are part ofthe cities storm
water management system. If one is damaged in a storm, they have to
repair it. Some have disappeared after a storm, but stick out far
enough to drain properly. They are not hazardous or no chance of
getting beat up in a storm.
· Extending them? Didn't feel any need in this project to extend the
pipes. They are at an elevation - if building a beach and adding width
to it, they will be functional without adding length to them. There are
no drains across the beach at Park Shore. Only 8 or 9 and start at
Lowdermilk Park and down to First Ave. South.
· Discussed solutions with CP&E that are implemented elsewhere in the
State, which would be to have an x-filtration system at the seawalL
Would like to get something designed as to not plug up with sand and
may have to do next winter.
**Mr. Arceri asked about the conversation in last months meeting concerning the
South Beach Renourishment on Marco and the Caxambas dredging issue. He
noted many comments were made about the dredging is not necessary and
alternative for sand source that may be more efficient. He questioned the vote
that failed and then the vote to approve a further study.
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July 16,2004
Mr. Pennington explained Mr. Pires felt the comments going back to DEP were
pretty weak and should be more substance in it, more particular on supporting the
sand source. The best sand source is from the Pass and they wouldn't look at
something else. Concern was DEP may look at alternate sand sources and why
would they use this particular one.
The vote was approved with the recommendation that it be toughened up
somewhat to give more strength to the alternate sand source.
Mr. Hovell mentioned the end result was the permit application was changed
saying there are no other alternatives (which is incorrect), to explaining there
were other alternatives. The one in the permit application is the best choice. It
has been signed by the City Manager and forwarded to Taylor Engineering and
will shortly submit to the State.
Mr. Pennington again mentioned the negative vote was because the language
was so soft in justifying the sand source that was to be used.
Mr. Hovell explained originally it said - here is the permit application - and the
vote failed to say "yes" approve the permit application. Then another motion was
made - if they changed from no alternatives to describing there were alternatives,
and then why they wouldn't work; the vote then was 5-0.
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Mr. Arceri said part of the argument is the need to dredge for navigational
reasons and asked ifDEP cared.
Mr. Hovell answered they did and would be lucky to be dredging a year and a
half from now because they are going to get many RAI's indicating they do not
want to see it happen.
They were told by DEP the last time they did it would be the last time they were
permitted to do it. They say the emerging shoals are Piping Plover habitat. When
dredging sand tends to fall down the emerging shoals may disappear. Their main
concern is the impact to the Piping Plover habitat. If they say they are doing it for
beach renourishment - they will ask to see if the beach is in bad shape. Would
have a hard time proving that. If doing it for navigation, they will ask to be
shown that the navigation is in bad shape. He felt they would have a hard time
proving that also.
Mr. Arceri said they had a consultant report last year say that was a beach that is
eroding and needs work. They stated Caxambas Pass is filling up. In asking what
is expected of them, Mr. Hovell stated to wait until it gets worse, but really didn't
know. Anything impacting the Piping Plover habitat is their main concern.
Mr. Hovell said the State has 30 days to accept it or not and they will know for
their September meeting.
He has looked at the data along with Mr. Snediker and there is 8 foot channel
depth anywhere they want to go.
Mr. Arceri disagrees and is going by the Waterways Advisory Committee plus
his own personal knowledge of the area.
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July 16,2004
Mr. Hovell said in looking at the survey data there is 8 feet of depth. They need
to talk apples to apples on the map and area. If there is a navigational issue,
someone should plat it out on a map.
Mr. Arceri would like to have the subject on the September Agenda and get the
Waterways Advisory Committee report on their findings.
Discussion followed on funding, the channel, width, safety, dredging areas and
the survey data. Mr. Hovell stated the survey data from Taylor Engineering
showed the depth and width was there. The channel markers are there and the
width is there etc.
Mr. Pennington asked that it be placed on the Agenda for the next meeting in
September. He also asked to be provided with a copy of the final permit request.
Mr. Sullivan stated the shoals were there by a small degree but now growing by
the day. He is familiar with the area and no longer is there a high tide, low tide
situation. The shoals are getting bigger and wider and closer to the shore.
Mr. Pennington stated the State Statutes has a requirement saying the passes will
be maintained.
The last time they monitored the area was 2002. There was a presentation made
and felt they may as well start to address the area.
***Mr. Pennington mentioned there was a discussion in the past concerning
Joint membership on the TDC and CAC. The County Commissioners discussed it
concerning other committees etc. and whether there was a potential conflict.
They referred it to the legal department for an opinion.
Mr. Hendel mentioned the Attorney discussed it at the TDC meeting and said the
Commissioners were okay because of the Statutory. It was also announced that
the BCC had dropped the matter.
***There is a shoaling problem in Doctors Pass - not scheduled for routine
dredging until next year. Need to advise the public to proceed with caution.
***The Agenda was published on the Website for the first time. There were no
negative comments.
XI. Next Meeting Date/Location
· Mr. Hovell will send out copies oftheirresponses ofRAI-3
· A special meeting could be called if necessary.
· Next meeting September 9th -Joint Meeting if necessary
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July 16, 2004
. Maria mentioned the BCC has a Workshop in the morning with another
meetingat 4:30 so their meeting will need to conclude at 4:00 PM
After much discussion it was decided to hold the next meeting on
Wednesday, September 8th at 1 :30 PM.
There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was
adjourned by order of the Chair at 3:48 PM.
COLLIER COUNTY COASTAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE
Chairman Ron Pennington
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