CLB Minutes 05/19/2004 R
May 19,2004
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
Naples, Florida May 19, 2004
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing
Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business
herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in
Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with
the following members present:
CHAIRMAN:
Les Dickson
David L. Beswick
Sydney Blum
Eric Guite'
Richard Joslin
Ann Keller
William Lewis
Kenneth Lloyd
ALSO PRESENT:
Thomas Bartoe, Licensing Compliance Officer
Robert Zachary, County Attorney
Patrick Neale, Counsel to the Board
Michael Ossorio, Licensing Compliance Officer
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AGENDA
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
DATE: MAY 19, 2004
TIME: 9:00 A.M.
W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING
(ADMINISTRATION BUILDING)
COURTHOUSE COMPLEX
ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE
PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM
RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND
EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
I. ROLL CALL
II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS:
III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
DATE: April 21,2004
V. DISCUSSION:
VI. NEW BUSINESS:
Tobias I. Simmons - Request to qualify a second company
Jack Elliott - Request to qualify a second company.
Tarlton Hunter - Request to waive Carpentry exam to reinstate the Carpentry license.
Juvenal Walteros-Ramirez - Request to waive exam for Aluminum license.
VII. OLD BUSINESS:
VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS:
Alexander Winters - Contesting Citation numbers 2212 and 2213 on behalf of Dustin Winters and
Clarke Shotwell issued for no painting license.
IX. REPORTS:
X. NEXT MEETING DATE:
Wednesday, June 16, 2004
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May 19,2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning. I'd like to call to
order the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board meeting. Good
morning, Ann. May 19th, 2004.
Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board will
need a record of the proceedings pertaining to this meeting. Therefore,
you need to ensure that you get a verbatim record of the proceedings,
which record includes that testimony and evidence upon which the
appeal is based.
Roll call, starting to my right.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Lewis.
MR. BESWICK: David Beswick.
MR. BLUM: Mr. Blum.
MS. KELLER: Ann Keller.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson.
MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin.
MR. LLOYD: Ken Lloyd.
MR. GUITE': Eric Guite.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Full board, right? Yeah, very nice,
everybody's here.
Mr. Bartoe, any additions or deletions to the minutes?
MR. BAR TOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, board members.
For the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County Licensing Compliance
Officer.
Staff would like to add two items to discuss under old business.
First item is Mr. Daniel Green, which was Case No. 2004-1. That was
the tile case before you with Mr. and Mrs. Foster, complainants.
And staff would also like to add item number two under old
business, Case No. 2004-2, which was the case of Ro II secure Shutters.
And staff has no other additions or deletions.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have two. Under discussion, before
we get into new business, discuss findings of fact forms that were
handed out this morning. And under 3 of old business, discuss the
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June meeting.
Someone want to make a motion?
MR. JOSLIN: Motion to approve these items.
MR. LLOYD: Second, Lloyd.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
MR. BARTOE: And Mr. Chairman, I only made this morning
enough of those blank findings of facts to pass out to cover the items
under new business today.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We can get some more copies.
Approval of the minutes. You have the minutes in front of you.
I need a motion to approve the minutes.
MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin.
MR. LLOYD: Second, Lloyd.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Under discussion, this findings of fact
that was handed out this morning. Mr. Neale, you want to explain
this?
MR. NEALE: Yes. Pursuant to our ordinance and to the
statutes, when this board renders a decision on any of the matters that
are listed on that form, i.e., issues that affect licensure, where the
board has a license referred to it from the contractor licensing staff,
such as a credit report, waiver of testing requirements or reinstatement
or request to qualify a second entity, that might mandatorily has to
come here, the board's required to issue a findings of fact and
conclusions of law on that.
The board typically in the past has done this verbally from the
dais, and that should be adequate under the terms of the ordinance and
the statute.
What -- after reviewing some of the cases and such that we've
had, and also looking at some other case law and speaking to the
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May 19,2004
contractor licensing staff in Tallahassee, I think it would be prudent
that we begin formalizing those and actually sending a notice to the --
to the person who has been in front of the board to -- as to the findings
of the board and in more particularity.
So these forms will be used -- the board -- by the way, the board
in the past approved these forms about -- and I don't have the exact
date, but about a year ago. But they have not been implemented.
What these forms basically do is the board, at the time of
determining whether an application is to be granted or denied or
granted with restrictions, will go through and review this form, which
is the finding of fact and conclusions of law.
Certain findings are boilerplate, for lack of a better term. Certain
findings, such as who the applicant is, that either it does not appear on
its face to comply with the requirements of the section, or it's required
to come before the board in the case of a second entity for review.
Others, the fact that the board has jurisdiction and the person was
present, that's part of the record, and it's assumed that the board has
jurisdiction. That the notices have been properly issued is assumed
and can be just put into the record by submission of the form.
On the next section, or Section 5, and I don't know whether
everybody has one in front of you, but we can go through it --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I stop you one minute?
MR. NEALE: Sure.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So what you're wanting to do on each
one of these is we read them, just read the very top opening
paragraph?
MR. NEALE: Right.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just state the person and the case and
items one, two, three and four do not have to be read each time?
MR. NEALE: They're just -- as part of the record you can just
refer to the form and say that this -- you know, items one through four
in the findings of fact are hereby incorporated as part of the record.
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Item five is the facts that are found, and it's broken into several
sections, depending on the type of case. And then in there, the board
will determine -- and the board has always done this in the past
verbally, it's just a matter of formalizing it -- whether the applicant has
or has not met the criteria for an acceptable credit report, based on the
following facts, whether it does or does not -- the applicant does or
does not have relevant recent experience, and then the testing
requirement mayor may not be waived, demonstrate their license may
or may not be reinstated or in the case of a second entity that the
person seeking to qualify a second company can qualify or cannot
qualify that company based on certain facts.
Then the conclusions of law, that's a simple one paragraph, based
upon the foregoing facts, the board concludes that the applicant either
has or has not met the standard, which is what the board's motion has
always been, did or did not meet the standard.
Then the order is just what the board has always ordered before,
either it's accepted or not accepted.
So as I say, what it really does is just give us a formal piece of
paper to issue and to put in the files and to send to the applicant,
reflecting what the board had in the past always stated verbally. So
it's just to make sure that we've got a paper trail and something that
clearly sets out what the board's decision was.
MR. JOSLIN: How are these actually filled out? Who fills these
out?
MR. NEALE: I'll be doing these, just like I do the other orders of
the board.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So there's no need for me to sign these
today, Mr. Bartoe?
MR. BAR TOE: No, sir.
MR. NEALE: You'll get -- they'll be just like the other orders on
the public hearings, where I'll issue the order, we'll send it over to
county staff, county staff will deliver it to you, you'll sign it, and then
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it will be distributed to the applicant, and the staff will maintain a
copy and I'll maintain a copy.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody have any questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let's proceed. New business.
Tobias Simmons, are you present? Would you come forward,
sir. You have a request to qualify a second company. I need for you
to state your name and have you sworn in.
MR. SIMMONS: My name is Tobias Simmons.
(The speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've been here before, haven't you?
MR. SIMMONS: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Really? I thought I recognized you.
So you currently qualify Marco Marine Construction?
MR. SIMMONS: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you want to qualify also Five
Stars Electric, Incorporated?
MR. SIMMONS: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, would you give us the reasons
and particulars?
MR. SIMMONS: Five Star Electric is my company. I am the
president. I started that company originally with Hector Patino as the
qualifier. I -- shortly after the company came into existence, I passed
my test myself, got licensed.
At that period was when everything was happening with the
contractors, electrical contractors needing longshoreman's for dock
work. At the time I was doing a lot of dock work for Marco Marine
Construction, and we decided that it was very cost effective to use my
license to qualify Marco Marine and use their existing longshoreman's
to get their dock work done. And it has worked out great that way.
As it is -- as it was at the time, it was impossible for me as a small
company to even secure the longshoreman's insurance, so it was a way
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of making that all happen.
Now what I'd really like to do -- and actually the second entity is
really my main entity. I'm trying to qualify my own company, in
effect. And actually Marco Marine Construction is actually the
second entity. It's kind of strange the way it worked out, but that's
actually what I'm trying to do.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you are a licensed electrician?
MR. SIMMONS: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where does longshoreman insurance
stand? Same situation, you've got to have it?
MR. SIMMONS: It's extremely expensive and you have to have
it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did everybody go get it, or did a lot
of them go out of business?
MR. SIMMONS: No, a lot of them just quit doing docks is
basically what happened.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just for everyone's information, and it
affects all of this on this board, if you step into any structure that's in
the waterways, you're under the federal Jones Act, correct?
MR. SIMMONS: I'm unaware of what that is.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Federal Jones Act requires that you
have longshoreman insurance for liability and workers' compo Like I
as a roofing contractor did a house on one of the canals but I could not
do the boat dock because as soon as my people step off land and step
into that waterway, they're not covered by your liability or your
workers' compo
MR. SIMMONS: Exactly.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So everyone has longshoreman's now
that are --
MR. SIMMONS: I make sure of it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's big bucks, isn't it?
MR. SIMMONS: It's big bucks.
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MR. BARTOE: Sir, sole proprietors are not required to have it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Really?
MR. BAR TOE: Yes.
MR. SIMMONS: I kind of think that's unfair, too. That's just
my opInIon.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What about the employees of sole
proprietors?
MR. BARTOE: If you're a sole proprietor, you should not have
employees, then you'd have a violation.
MR. SIMMONS: That's why it's kind of unfair.
MR. BARTOE: And I think we have received a couple of those
type violations, and Mr. Ossorio has taken care of it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. It's a major issue.
Okay, back to your deal. Anybody have any questions? Have
you reviewed the file?
MR. BESWICK: It's straightforward.
MS. KELLER: What is -- under the section which asks how
you'll be paid by the business, you say salary disbursements. What
does disbursements mean?
MR. SIMMONS: Well, basically I give myself a cash
disbursement every month from Five Star Electric, and I'm also on the
payroll. So I'm actually covered under workman's comp also.
MS. KELLER: But you own 100 percent of the company?
MR. SIMMONS: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: I'm a little confused on how now are you going to
have longshoreman's insurance secured? By--
MR. SIMMONS: Well, I don't. Marco Marine has had it
secured for years now. They've always had longshoreman's. And
since I've qualified them as an electrical contractor, it's just another
workmen's comp code that they send in with payroll.
MR. JOSLIN: So in essence you're actually getting the insurance
through Marco Marine when you work on the dock?
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MR. SIMMONS: None of my Five Star Electric employees
work for Marco Marine. We have -- I actually moved my dock people
onto Marco Marine's payroll, and they're Marco Marines employees,
so --
MR. JOSLIN: Oh, I understand.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Move for a motion?
MR. JOSLIN: Unless anyone else has any questions, I'll make a
motion that we approve this application for a second entity.
MR. GUITE': I'll second it, Guite'.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, you are approved. I've got to
read this thing.
But for all of you that are here, all of your files are here in this
room today, so do not go to contractor licensing today. You can go
there tomorrow and get it taken care of.
And application was request to qualify a second entity on this
date -- give me your cover sheet again on -- no, on that one, on that
case. Yeah, there we go.
That Tobias I. Simmons, electrical trade, items one, two and
three and four are in the record. His credit met --
MR. NEALE: This would actually just be a D.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: D?
MR. NEALE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh. Well, he did qualify, he is
licensed, he is qualifying his own company. And by a vote of 9-0 we
approved it on this date.
Sufficient, Mr. Neale?
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MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Chairman?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes.
MR. BARTOE: Excuse me, 8-0.
MR. NEALE: It's actually 8-0.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Eight, zero. Oh, I couldn't count.
8-0. We're missing one.
Best of luck to you.
MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you.
Next we have Jack Elliot. Are you present? If you'd come
forward, sir, state your name. Also here to qualify a second company.
And I need to have you sworn in after that.
MR. ELLIOT: Jack Elliot.
(The speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you presently qualify Contractors
Painting Corporation?
MR. ELLIOT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you want to qualify as a second
entity Selvco Surface Systems, Incorporated, correct?
MR. ELLIOT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Details and why.
MR. ELLIOT: Selvco was run as a division of Contractors
Painting Corporation and we've separated them, and each one is its
own corporation.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Why did you separate them?
MR. ELLIOT: We sold off the assets of Selvco to another party,
which formed its own corporation.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just got confused.
MR. JOSLIN: Me, too.
MS. KELLER: Me, too.
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CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Contractors Painting
Corporation, Selvco was a division under them, correct?
MR. ELLIOT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you sold off Selvco?
MR. ELLIOT: Correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you sell -- is Selvco Surface
Systems, Incorporated a new entity?
MR. ELLIOT: Yes, yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the old one that you sold off was
what? Selvco what?
MR. ELLIOT: It was just Selv -- it was Contractors Painting
CorporationlSelvco Surface Systems. It was run as one entity.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's confusing. So Sel -- the slash
Selvco Surface Systems was not incorporated, right?
MR. ELLIOT: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So all you've done now is put Inc. on
the end of it?
MR. ELLIOT: Right, and it's run as two separate companies.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The Selvco Service Systems that you
sold off, is it operating?
MR. ELLIOT: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, you just sold the assets?
MR. ELLIOT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the company is no longer in
business?
MR. ELLIOT: Well, it's in business now as Selvco Surface
Systems, Inc.
MR. JOSLIN: So Selvco Surface Systems, Inc. is still in
operation?
MR. ELLIOT: Yes.
MR. LLOYD: But it wasn't initially, because it was incorporated
under the --
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May 19,2004
MR. ELLIOT: It was just run as a --
MR. LLOYD: It was run under Contractors Painting Corp.
MR. ELLIOT: Yes. So now it's its own company.
MR. LLOYD: Now it's an entity unto itself.
MS. KELLER: Why do you say that in the present company you
own 100 percent and in the new one zero?
MR. ELLIOT: I don't have any shares of the new corporation.
MS. KELLER: Who owns the new corporation?
MR. ELLIOT: Gary Hine.
MS. KELLER: And he purchased the company from Contractors
Painting Corp?
MR. ELLIOT: Correct.
MS. KELLER: So you're basically giving -- you're using your
license for the purchaser of the company?
MR. ELLIOT: Until he gets his own license, correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And how are you going to be paid?
MR. ELLIOT: I'm being paid a small salary, weekly salary.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have any control over the
business?
MR. ELLIOT: Just as a consultant, actually.
MR. LLOYD: So is the financial obligation of the new company
Gary Hine's or yours?
MR. ELLIOT: It's Gary Hine's.
MR. LLOYD: Do we have a credit report on him? Or do we
need a credit report on him?
MR. ELLIOT: There was one sent in for Gary Hine.
MR. JOSLIN: The application, I'm seeing here under M&N,
listing of officers, I'm showing you as a president and also Gary Hine
as a president.
MR. ELLIOT: He's president of Selvco Surface Systems, Inc.,
I'm president of Contractors Painting.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who is Gary Hine? Where did he
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come from? What's he do?
MR. ELLIOT: He was a CPA, and he was kind of semi-retired
and wanted to get back into business.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So a CPA now wants to be a painter.
Go figure. There's something -- something here that's not meeting the
test.
MR. ELLIOT: I don't know what --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You sold Selvco Surface Systems,
Inc.?
MR. ELLIOT: Correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You own no part of it now, but yet
you're going to qualify it?
MR. ELLIOT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Doesn't make sense.
MR. ELLIOT: Well, because he's not licensed, I want to qualify
him, help him make a smooth transition until he understands the
operation, everything of the company.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why would someone who's not
licenced buy a company that they've never been in, in a trade they've
never been in?
MR. ELLIOT: That I don't have an explanation for.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I got a whole lot of questions,
because this thing doesn't make sense.
MR. ELLIOT: It -- the company was up for sale by a broker, the
broker brought him in as a client, and he liked the business and wanted
to buy it.
MS. KELLER: I'm just looking at the credit report, too. Can
you explain the credit report?
MR. ELLIOT: Which one?
MS. KELLER: The business credit report, Contractors Painting.
MR. ELLIOT: No, I tried to get an explanation of that. It didn't
make any sense. I did get letters from each of the three major paint
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companies that we work with, if I could submit those.
MS. KELLER: Do we have to do something to submit these?
MR. BLUM: Was the sale contingent upon you providing
temporary licensing for the corporation?
MR. ELLIOT: It wasn't contingent upon that, no. But I did say
that I would do that until he got licensed himself.
MR. BLUM: And in the event that this application of yours
doesn't go through, what then?
MR. ELLIOT: He'll have to get his own painting contractor's
license, which he plans on going to take the exam next week.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, help me.
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This thing borders on -- without
making an accusing statement, it borders on selling a license.
MR. NEALE: Well, as long as Mr. Elliot is responsible, is the
responsible contractor, he understands that fact that he is responsible
for all of the contracting activities and responsible for making sure
that contracting relating debts are paid and that any contracting
performed by the company he's seeking to qualify is his responsibility.
And that is all sworn to here. Then, you know, he's -- he is on the
hook.
MR. LLOYD: But he owns -- he has no official connection,
other than they gave him some authorization to act on their part in the
contracting business, through the resolution of authorization certificate
there. So he's not really connected at all to this company.
MR. NEALE: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And it also--
MR. LLOYD: That's the part that bothers me, is he has no
official obligation to this company.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the purpose for it makes no sense
whatsoever. There's some other motive here.
MS. KELLER: Unless when he sold it he's being paid over a
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period of time. Then he has an interest in the company succeeding --
MR. ELLIOT: I do, I have a note on the sale of the company.
MS. KELLER: That's paid off over what period of time?
MR. ELLIOT: Five years.
MS. KELLER: So he does have a interest.
MR. BLUM: He's told us that his license isn't contingent -- the
sale isn't contingent on his license. He made that clear. That's the part
I don't get.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But that -- he can say that, but when
he has a note that's paid over five years and is contingent on the
company being successful, then his qualifying the company is.
MR. ELLIOT: It was basically just a timing situation. Mr. Hine
was -- had left Florida for a couple of weeks and wasn't able to do the
work that he had to get his license in time, so I offered to qualify as a
second entity until he got his own license. That's basically all that
happened.
MR. NEALE: If I can just recount for the board the tests to show
that a qualifying agent is legally qualified to act for the business. One
of the tests in granting a license to a business organization is proof that
the qualifying agent is legally qualified to act for the business
organization in all matters connected with its contracting business, and
that said qualifying agent has the authority to supervise construction
undertaken by such business organization.
Proof that a qualifying agent is legally qualified to act for the
business organization includes but is not limited to authority to sign
checks for the business organization, training and supervision of
employees, hiring and firing of employees or other actions indicating
active involvement in the business organization.
So if the board were to find that any of those -- any or all of those
tests is met, the board could rule that he does have active involvement
in the business organization. If the board finds other than that, then
the board could find that he does not have active involvement and
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would not be an appropriate qualifier.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But he's already said he has no
involvement except just a consultant.
MR. ELLIOT: Well, they are running out of our location, and so
their -- all the employees and the equipment and everything is still at
our location, and I have an everyday connection with the company.
MR. LLOYD: Mr. Neale, in the resolution of authorization form
that's in this packet, that pretty such says that he can do all of the
things you just stated, correct?
MR. NEALE: Right. So both parties, they have agreed to the
fact that -- you know, or at least the company that he's seeking to
qualify has agreed to the fact that he can do all those things. So
whether it's stated verbally, if that is an untrue statement, it's perjury.
MR. LLOYD: Right. And we have to go along with this
document, because it is authorized --
MR. NEALE: It's a sworn statement.
MR. LLOYD: Right.
MS. KELLER: I also have problems with the credit report, even
though you have the letters. And I would like to see that cleared up
before you would qualify another company. Because if -- in the event
that you're not handling your own company's finances appropriately,
then I don't think it's prudent for us to allow you to qualify another
company.
MR. JOSLIN: Especially if he has no interest in the company.
MR. BLUM: The letters have to do with this gentleman's
business, right, the letters we're seeing?
MS. KELLER: Yeah, they do.
MR. BLUM: Have these same corporations extended credit
agreements to Mr. Hine, and in Selvco's new name?
MR. ELLIOT: Yes.
MR. BLUM: Because we don't see that. His credit report is
quite favorable.
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May 19,2004
MR. ELLIOT: They've opened up new accounts under Selvco
Surface Systems, Inc., all those companies.
MR. BLUM: If he's not responsible for the bills, Mr. Hine is as
the new owner.
MS. KELLER: But if he's giving his license, he is responsible.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Talk louder.
MS. KELLER: If he's giving his license, then he is responsible.
MR. BLUM: Correct.
MS. KELLER: And in the past we've never looked at the owner
of the business, we only look at the qualifier.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What are you seeing on his credit
report, Contractors Painting Corporation? Oh, I got you.
And then I look at Mr. Elliot's personal credit report, and I'm a
little bit concerned about the amount of inquiries, which all seem to be
inquiries on the front page, which all seem to be mostly trade
accounts.
MR. ELLIOT: They do an updated inquiry every month, that's
why.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do they? Under Jack Elliot?
MR. ELLIOT: Under Jack Elliot and Contractors Painting, I
believe.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
Any further questions? Let's take direction on this.
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Questions or a motion?
MR. LLOYD: Whether we like it or not, he actually is -- has
every right to serve in this capacity, so I make a motion that we
accept.
MR. BLUM: Second, Blum.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion to approve and second it.
Any discussion?
(N 0 response.)
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May 19,2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
MR. LEWIS: Aye.
MR. BESWICK: Aye.
MR. BLUM: Aye.
MR. LLOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
MR. JOSLIN: Nay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Nay.
MS. KELLER: Nay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So it's 5-3.
Okay, you got it done. Same thing applies, your records are here.
I need to request to qualify a second entity with Jack Elliot who
was present here today at this board. One, two, three and four are on
record in the findings of fact. Basically that he has met the criteria to
qualify a second entity. And conclusion of the law, based on the
foregoing facts, the board concludes that the applicant has met the
standards set out in Ordinance 90-105, as amended, by a vote of five
in favor and three opposed. It was approved by the board on this date.
Wish you well.
MR. ELLIOT: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you get your three that opposed?
THE COURT REPORTER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
Excuse me, I just dropped the phone in the trash can. Okay,
yeah, don't hit the button.
Tarlton Hunter, are you present? If you would come forward, sir,
state your name and I'll have you sworn in.
MR. HUNTER: My name is Tarlton Hunter.
(The speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you previously had a carpentry
license and you want to request waiving the exam to reinstate the
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May 19,2004
license, correct?
MR. HUNTER: Yes, sir, that's correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give us some details.
MR. HUNTER: Well, I had the license. I got it back in '95 and I
was working through it and with it and I was offered a great job with
another company and I took it. And during that five, six-year span
working for this other company, I let the license lapse. And then the
company -- he folded the company about a year and a half or so ago,
and I came to the county to -- I thought my license just went inactive.
I was, I guess, illiterate to that part of it. And I went to reactivate it
and they told me that I needed to retest. And I went and took the
business and law test and passed it.
And I was at the county going through the procedures to get the
license, and they said well, wouldn't you rather have your carpentry
license reinstated, if -- you could do that. And I said well, yes. And so
they set me up with today's meeting.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Rather than taking the test again?
MR. HUNTER: Right. Because I had taken the test before, I
passed it, you know, already in the past. And I have been a carpenter
for gosh, 30 something years. And so I was here to request that I
wouldn't have to take the practical exam again and just bypass that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've been a carpenter how long?
MR. HUNTER: Oh, 30 plus years.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Who have you worked for
besides Sunshine?
MR. HUNTER: Well, Sonrise, I'm still in a part-time capacity
with them. I've worked for BCB. I was an assistant superintendent
with them for a few years, and this was back in '90 -- actually, that
was before I got my license. And I've worked with Mike Whalen
Construction, I've worked with -- I worked for J & J Trim. I worked
with Euwing Construction. I worked for -- I can't think of the name of
the one company that went under, but --
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May 19,2004
MR. LLOYD: Surette? Did you work for Surette?
MR. HUNTER: Yeah, I have done work with Tom Surette in a
capacity -- I was with J & J Trim as a carpenter, and that was one of
the contractors that we did sub work for. And I got to know Tom
through working for John Fletcher for J & J Trim.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any complaints or citation by county?
MR. HUNTER: (Shaking head negatively.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Sometimes these people come
in here because of Mr. Ossorio.
MR. BARTOE: Because of him?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. There's no question about your
experience, in my opinion, but -- questions from the board? Questions
or motions?
MR. BESWICK: I make a motion we approve the application,
Beswick.
MR. BLUM: Second, Blum.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion to approve and second. All
those in favor?
MR. LEWIS: Aye.
MR. BESWICK: Aye.
MR. BLUM: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. LLOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
MS. KELLER: Nay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Nay? Mr. Hunter, you have been
approved to reinstatement of your license by waiving the exam, the
carpentry exam.
And one, two, three and four of record. We have found that the
applicant does have relevant recent experience in the specific trade
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May 19,2004
applied for and thus the testing requirement may be waived based on
these facts and your experience, and by a vote of eight to -- or 7-1, it
was approved.
So if you go see contractor licensing tomorrow or after, they'll
get it taken care of for you.
MR. HUNTER: All right. Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir.
Juvenal Ramirez (sic), are you present? Would you come
forward, please. Need for you to state your name and have you sworn
In.
MR. W AL TEROS: My name is Juvenal Walteros.
(The speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you want us to waive the exam
for an aluminum license. Will you tell us why?
MR. W AL TEROS: The point why I am here, because I didn't
get my license because I didn't pass the test, aluminum. But I don't
really think that show my experience in this kind of job. Back to
1999, that was my first assignment, I started working in aluminum in a
big company, Rain Control. And four years -- almost three years and
a half later, I open my own business. Since that, I been having
problems with this workmen's compensation with the license, so I
been taking the test two times, but I didn't pass.
MS. KELLER: Do you have to take that test in English?
MR. WALTEROS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I see you --
MR. W AL TEROS: It's no more Spanish.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you not only didn't pass the
aluminum construction license, I don't see wher-e you've passed the
business and law. You haven't passed either test, have you?
MR. WALTEROS: Yes. My point is right now I'm going to take
time for take a special program, and with that I can pass this test. I
want to take the time for like a -- like evaluate my situation about the
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May 19,2004
aluminum stuff. Like redo it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We will talk about the Spanish later
on. Which I notice that's not on the agenda, Mr. Bartoe.
MR. BARTOE: That's correct.
MR. W AL TEROS: Can I say something? What my business
thoughts is, soffit, fascia and gutters. And about that, I got a lot of
experience because I start in 1999 for Rain Control, so I got a lot of
experiences about this type of job.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a lot of employees that work
for me that have experience greater than four years or five years, but
that doesn't mean that everyone is capable of running the business.
And you haven't passed even the business and law.
What we're in the process of doing is, Experior used to give the
test in Spanish for those who requested it. That has since changed.
Weare looking at possibly another testing company in the State of
Florida to do Collier County tests. But until that time, we've had
people that didn't speak a lick of English who, some of which -- I hate
to keep bringing up the gentleman from Poland, but for two years
every night he would spend three to four hours a night working on the
language. And it took him -- see, you've taken the test four times.
MR. LLOYD: Twice.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Twice, okay.
MR. WALTEROS: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not good enough.
MR. W AL TEROS: No, I know. The thing I want maybe is just
get a, like a probational license for start working, and until that time I
can take the test again. But before taking the test again, I can take a
special program and that way I can pass the test.
MR. JOSLIN: I think it would be better if we did it just in
reverse of that. Take the special program first and pass the test and
then come back here and you won't have to come back here.
MR. WALTEROS: Yeah, first take the special program, then
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May 19,2004
take the test.
MR. JOSLIN: Right. Then you won't come back to see us,
though.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Special program, take the test, get
your license, that order. Not license first and then do those things. Or
a provisional license.
MR. WALTEROS: Okay. But let me ask you something. I
opened this business in May, 2002. So I been working this like a
part-time. I had couple customer and they can show what is my
experience about this part. So if you -- maybe you say to me no, you
can keep going, go on working in this kind of business until you get
your license. Okay, that can take me like two months or month and a
half or maybe more. So what I can do right now until I get that? I
mean, this is the only thing I have to do, aluminum stuff, gutter, soffit.
And I got a lot of things to do, I got a lot of exp -- I got a lot of
customer I have to take care of. And I don't know what I can do.
MR. JOSLIN: Well, let's put it this way: Technically, right now
if you have a lot of customers that you're working with right now that
you're doing work for and you don't have a license, you're doing this
illegally as of the moment.
MR. W AL TEROS: I know. And that's what I want to do, I want
to just be legal in this situation, be everything by the rules.
MR. JOSLIN: Right. But you're going to have to understand
that we can't -- we can't hardly give you a license at the moment,
whether it be a temporary license or any other -- else kind of license
with the test scores that you have.
Understanding that we -- we understand that you have plenty of
experience, but you haven't shown that experience to a testing facility
so we know that you have passed the test. Even if you had passed
portions of the test, we could probably be a little more lenient.
But under the circumstances, I have a problem with now
knowing that you have a business out there with the customers that --
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May 19,2004
whether or not you're going to keep working for them or not. I
understand you have to make a living; however, they give the test
every day in Jacksonville or in Gainesville. So if it's that important to
you and you really need to take this test and get that credential
underneath your belly, then I think that may be the thing to do, if you
need to get that work started right away. But I don't think you're
going to find anybody on the board right now that is going to grant
this license for you.
MR. BLUM: Mr. Chairman?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes.
MR. BLUM: The two that bother me the most is what he's so
good at, he's failed terribly. Let's see, 38, 54 just in aluminum
construction.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, and part of that may be the
language problem as well.
MR. BLUM: Still, 38.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, I agree.
MS. KELLER: Does someone offer these tests In Spanish
currently that -- in the state?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe?
MS. KELLER: Or are we not that far along yet?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're not that far along.
MR. BARTOE: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, he -- for Collier County he has
to use Experior because that's who Collier County presently
recognizes, correct?
MR. BAR TOE: I believe the ordinance is written "or
equivalent". Is that right, Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: Yes, it is.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, or equivalent. You don't have to
go through Experior. If you can find one of the other testing agencies,
and there's three or four of them that offer it in Spanish, you can take
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May 19,2004
it through them. And if they are recognized anywhere in the State of
Florida, we will recognize it here on this board.
The problem is, and what you're up against is, we don't give
provisional or temporary licenses for you to continue work while you
go get your testing done. That just doesn't happen. We may waive a
license or a test, like the gentleman right before you, based upon 30
years of experience and previously having a license. We waived the
need for testing on him. But he already had the license before and just
let it lapse. But we don't give a provisional license. It's something
this board just doesn't do so that you can work while you're trying to
get yourself legal. It's got to go the other way around.
But you can find one of these other testing agencies, and I mean,
if you come back in here next time and you still haven't passed, you
need to be close and you need to have more than two times. We've
had people in here with as many as a dozen, 12 times they've taken the
test. And they got real close and improved each time, and then we
were a little lenient then. But that's just the way the board works and
the way the law works.
Anyone else --
MR. JOSLIN: Understand also that if we did this today for you
that we would have nothing but people standing in the audience now
wanting to do the same thing. And we'd have a lot of licenses with
people that we've allowed to go and work that don't have a license yet.
So it makes it very difficult.
MR. WALTEROS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can get it done fast.
MR. WALTEROS: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, we've got to -- we're not making
the decisions here, we're just giving you our opinions.
Anyone else have any comments or questions?
MR. JOSLIN: Under the circumstances, I'll make the motion that
we have to deny this application.
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May 19,2004
MR. GUITE': I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion to deny and second. All those
in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, Mr. Ramirez, we -- Juvenal,
yeah, Ramirez, having come before this board and submitted an
application that we waive testing, this board has found that you do not
have the experience and we do not find -- this board did not find that
we should waive any testing, and therefore, we have denied your
application by a vote of 9-0 (sic).
MR. BESWICK: Eight.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 8-0. I'm stuck on nine. I must think
I'm playing baccarat.
But we're sorry we couldn't do it. But go get your test done.
Find someone that does it in Spanish.
MS. KELLER: You're lucky you speak Spanish. The poor
Polish guy had to learn English, or Spanish.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All they offer is English and Spanish.
And I know there's someone out there that's doing Spanish, and we're
trying to find them. So let us know. Dade County, talk to anyone in
Dade County, you're going to find someone over there.
MR. WALTEROS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Good luck to you.
Old business. Mr. Bartoe, you wanted to discuss Daniel Green.
MR. BAR TOE: Yes, sir. I believe it was March that this case
came before the board, and Mr. Green was found in violation of
failure to correct faulty workmanship, and the board awarded the
Fosters $6,000 to be paid, 2,000 due yesterday, and then 2,000 two
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May 19,2004
months from now and 2,000 two more months from now.
And I just want to advise the board that I called Mr. Green this
morning and no, he did not make the payment yesterday, and he says
he cannot make it. But I believe, and counsel can correct me if I'm
wrong, I believe if he does not make any of these payments, we're
going to have to wait for the board to take further action until the final
payments were supposed to have been made; is that correct?
MS. KELLER: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No.
MR. NEALE: Well, the way the order reads is that there's a
period of probation during which time the contractor's activities are
under the supervision of this board. The probation may be revoked by
the board, should the respondent fail to meet the repayment schedule
set above at a hearing noticed to consider said purpose. Upon
revocation of the probation, appropriate additional sanctions may be
imposed by the board at the hearing.
And the restitution schedule was that he was to repay them
within nine months at the rate of $2,000 per quarter. So that was the
schedule. And the order was specific that if he fails to meet the
schedule --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I remember the case, it was
Marco Island.
MR. BAR TOE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Mr. Green was an absolute
gentleman, because this board was ready to render an opinion of over
$12,000, which was the total loss. Mr. Green was the one who said
money wasn't the issue.
MR. BAR TOE: Mr. Foster, I believe.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Mr. Foster agreed to 50 percent
of the loss. And we wanted to make it a shorter time period, and Mr.
F oster even agreed to nine months so that he could make it. And here
he hasn't made the first payment or even a partial of the first payment.
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May 19,2004
MR. LLOYD: Correct.
MR. BARTOE: That's what he advised me this morning.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd drop the hammer.
MR. LLOYD: We operated in good faith and gave him an
opportunity to show that he would make this payment. And I
remember that motion. And I think he's violated our good faith. I
think we need to now take action again -- whatever action we can
against him.
MR. NEALE: Now, the board needs to set a hearing to revoke
the probation, because he has to be brought back in front of the Board.
But that hearing can be set and then --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He does?
MR. NEALE: Yeah. Yeah, that's the way the probationing --
probationary periods typically work is that if you're going to be
additional -- because no sanctions other than the fine were imposed.
So any additional sanctions will be decided upon by the board at that
hearing.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But didn't we put in that motion
failure to make these payments would result in --
MR. LLOYD: Right. That's what I thought.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because I remember that.
MR. NEALE: The way I've got it is that the -- should they fail to
meet the repayment schedule, they -- that the probation can be
revoked, and then it has to be at a hearing noticed to consider said
purpose. The problem is that the board at that point has -- at that
hearing has to decide sanctions and he has to be allowed an
opportunity to present his defense at that hearing.
MR. LLOYD: So he's missed the first payment by a day, and
then we have, what, two more months and he's due for another one?
MR. BARTOE: According to Mr. Neale, a quarter, three
months?
MR. NEALE: He was going to pay three payments, one every
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three months, so the first one three months, six months and nine
months.
MR. JOSLIN: Then I recommend that we put him on the next
meeting agenda and whatever paperwork has to be done to get here.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Of course, if due process is given and
he doesn't show up, then we can act.
MR. NEALE: Right. If he's given notice, doesn't show up for
the hearing, then the board certainly is free to act as it wishes at that
point, you know, as is appropriate.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a motion, do I have a second?
MR. GUITE': I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Motion's been made to
schedule him for a hearing before this board at whatever the next
meeting is, which may be July.
All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So done. If you'll take care of that,
Mr. Bartoe, after your vacation. As soon as this meeting is over, Mr.
Bartoe's gone.
Next old business, Rollsecure Shutters. Mr. Bartoe?
MR. BAR TOE: I believe that case was continued for 60 days
and Rollsecure, according to the actions here, says will repair the
shutter, Rollsecure will pay $2,800 to Mr. Mathias, and if complied
with, the case will be withdrawn. And I believe you have paperwork
in front of you to show that everything has been complied with.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, it's a nice letter you all have in
front of you.
MR. LLOYD: This is a non-action item, right?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It is. I'm just reading his letter. It's
nice that someone who had a problem and came before this board got
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May 19,2004
it resolved and everybody's happy. And he's very appreciative of the
board and staff of contractor licensing. I appreciate Mr. Mathias'
letter.
Third item in old business, we can do it real quick and then we'll
get into Mr. Winters. June meeting. Mr. Neale is going to be out of
the country. There's also some staff conflicts. We didn't have
anything coming before this board whatsoever in June except the case
that we just talked about, but that's floor covering, it could wait till
July.
Is there any objection from anybody if we don't have a June
meeting? We're required by county charter to meet four times a year.
Well, we've been meeting every single month. Any objections at all?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe, I'll leave that up to the
wishes of staff.
MR. BAR TOE: I would say we will schedule the third
Wednesday in July then, if anyone has a calendar with them.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 21st, I believe, is that date.
MR. BAR TOE: Yes. 21st?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, because you go past that, I
won't be here.
Public hearings. Alexander Winters, are you present, sir?
MR. WINTERS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you come forward, and I need
you to state your name and have you sworn in.
MR. WINTERS: My name is Alexander Winters.
(The speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I see you've gotten a couple of
citations for painting without a license.
MR. WINTERS: Yes, sir. It's not painting for me without a
license, it's painting for my son and my brother-in-law. I feel like I'm
responsible for it because they're trying to become subcontractors.
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May 19,2004
And given the amount of the fines, this is embarrassingly mundane
right now for me to even have put you all through this.
But what I'd like to say is that yes, I'm one of the reasons Mr.
Ossorio is -- I'm one of the reasons that -- he's the reason that I'm here
today. And it looks on the surface like I completely flaunted what he
was trying to do. And as a result of his generosity, that I -- that these
fines have been levied, and the reason is this: I was made aware of the
fact that these two people I'm trying to absorb into my business,
actually one of them, my son, I am and hope to turn him into a
pressure cleaner. And my brother-in-law works for my sister, Ruthie,
who is also licensed painting contractor.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you a licensed painting
contractor?
MR. WINTERS: Yes, sir, I am.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. WINTERS: Yes, sir. Mr. Ossorio came on the job and was
kind enough to give us a warning, and in that warning allowed Dustin,
my son, to stay on the job and asked Mr. Shotwell, my brother-in-law,
to leave the job.
And reading between the lines, I thought well, good, at least
there's some understanding here that he knows that I can incorporate
my son into my business -- and this is a workmen's comp issue -- and
hopefully get exemption from him as a result of altering my business,
which is not a corporation. I'm in the process of filing for an LLC
right now, with the hope of being able to take him under my wing and
also reap the benefits of exemption.
Same thing with my brother-in-law, Chip. And even though
Ruthie's not here right now to speak on his behalf, that's her intent as
well. She's already a corporation, and getting him involved in the
business is the same thing, for the advantages of being exempt.
What threw me off was is that I received this information -- I
wasn't on the job, I was on my honeymoon -- and I talked to my
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May 19,2004
people and found out that Mr. Shotwell had been asked to leave the
job but that Dustin had been left on the job. I was going to be back
the next day and so I thought well, good. I asked everybody to
assemble on the job again in hopes that I would -- because I thought
well, they're bound to come back. I didn't make the time to contact
Mr. Ossorio, because I wanted to get to the job, and figured well,
whoever reported us is going to report us again and at least Mr.
Ossorio will come here and I'll be able to say to him this young man --
this young man is in the process of being incorporated into my
business, and this old man over here is in the process of being
incorporated into my sister's business, because she would be on the
job, too.
The two of us, Ruthie and I, put our businesses together a lot of
the time if we see a job out there that we really want but we think we
may be in over our head on.
So in the process, on the day that I was there, Mr. Ossorio didn't
come. And I thought well, okay, I don't know what that means
exactly, but I left the next day again to go with my 80-year-old father
to Augusta, Georgia to see the opening practice rounds of the Masters,
where on the way I get another call saying that Mr. Ossorio is there
and that we're being fined and that the job is effectively shut down
until the changes are made.
So you'd either look upon me as being one of the stupidest people
you have ever met, to actually go -- to have the nerve to go back on
the job and say, you know, bring it on here, and get the -- have the
fines be levied against me. And again, $300 apiece is what they are.
And frankly, I thought that I would be able to have a hearing before
you, not so much to contest the fines. $600 is still a month's rent for a
kid in college, of which I have two. But I'm happy to pay those.
But what I really didn't want to happen was to have these two
people have this black mark on their records, as Dustin wants to start a
pressure cleaning business.
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May 19,2004
And incidentally, at the time that this whole thing happened,
Dustin was two weeks into his 18th year on the planet and Chip has
just moved over here from -- Mr. Shotwell has just moved over here
from the east coast. So we're trying to get a family thing going here
and we're trying to reap as many benefits of that as we can.
But what I'm here to tell you is is that this is my fault and if I'd
had a clearer understanding of what Mr. Ossorio was saying to me, in
other words, come there the first day, give us the warning, shut the job
down and say don't go back there. To go back there on the job again
wasn't the smartest thing to do unless you thought that there was some
understanding on their part, not only that there was, that we were
incorporating these people into our business, but there were actually
two working licenses present on the job. I wasn't there either time that
this happened. And again, that's my plea.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But let me surmise this for you. You
did get a warning. You're the first one that's come before this board
that I've heard Mr. Ossorio give a warning to.
MR. WINTERS: I understand.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He doesn't give out warnings. The
second citation is supposed to be for $500, not 300. Correct, Mr.
Neale?
MR. NEALE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you've already basically gotten a
break of 300 the first time and two $500 penalties, which is 1,300. He
essentially let you off for $700.
MR. WINTERS: I understand.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you did get quite a break.
MR. WINTERS: Believe me, I understand that. And again, I
wanted the board to understand that I wasn't flaunting his authority.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's fine --
MR. WINTERS: And again, I mean, I--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- and I think he understood that by
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May 19, 2004
the way he wrote the citations. So he didn't take it that way either.
We can't do anything for you, because the only thing we can do with
the citation is completely wipe it off or increase it. Now, I don't think
you want us to increase it, do you?
MR. NEALE: Or find it valid as written.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or find it valid and leave it standing.
MR. WINTERS: Well, I mean, is there any way that I can take
responsibility -- because I'm the one that's responsible --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not a black mark on their record.
When they go to get a license, it's not going to be an issue. We have a
whole lot of people that get licenses because of citations, and that's
exactly what we want those citations to do is get people legal. Which
it's going to have that effect. It does not affect them on getting a
license.
MR. WINTERS: It was my understanding it did.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We don't look badly against that.
MR. WINTERS: Okay. It was my understanding that it did, and
that I was in the -- I was, you know, as a result of coming before the
board here, that my license was in jeopardy and that sort of thing.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, your license is not in jeopardy.
MR. WINTERS: Okay, well it was -- okay, fair enough. So who
do I make the check out to and how much should I make it out for?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need to have a motion from someone
on the board.
MR.OSSORIO: Would you want to hear county's position?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I'd love it.
MR. OSSORIO: It's up to the board. It would be a pleasure.
What he said is accurate. A couple of things that are alluded to.
One, Alex never -- Alex Winters never received a ticket from me. He
should have.
Two, the job was never shut down. So there were people
working on the job when I left. So if the county wants to -- I mean, if
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May 19,2004
staff, we want to go ahead and give you our position. If not, then
that's fine, he can just pay the fine.
MR. NEALE: At this point, since this has been brought before
the board, actually, Mr. Zachary may have something to say that may
bear a little on this.
MR. ZACHARY: I was questioning the propriety of -- the
citations state that the -- that the person that got the citation chooses
not to pay the penalty and notifies in writing that they want a hearing.
I don't see anywhere that either of the people that have gotten the
citations have notified this board that they wanted a hearing. I
understand Mr. Winters is representing them, but I don't really see any
authorization by the people that got the citations to represent them.
But I'll defer to Mr. Neale to advise the board on whether or not this
proceeding is proper at this time or not. But the explanation that we've
been given, if the board wants to accept that, it seems it will take care
of the matter.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Point well taken. Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: The board has really two ways to approach this,
either one of which is legally defensible. Either the board can go
through the normal procedure, find these citations to be valid, find
them to have been validly issued and impose the penalty as
recommended, or what other penalty the board wishes to impose.
Or the alternative is the board can find that there was no properly
noticed appeal filed and, therefore, the citations are valid because no
properly noticed appeal was filed, and then go forward from there. Or
the board can find that they're invalid. I mean, that's the other choice.
But certainly the board could find that there's no properly noticed
appeal because of the facts that Mr. Zachary has brought forward.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But my point is, and Mr. Zachary, do
we need to do anything? Because basically we shouldn't even be
listening to Mr. Winters.
MR. NEALE: That's exactly it. I mean, he probably properly
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May 19,2004
should not have been here, because an appropriate appeal was not
filed, so the board can --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We let him make a statement and he
found out how he felt and no one appealed the citation.
MR. NEALE: He has made a statement but truly has not
represented the --
MS. KELLER: Well, at the beginning of his statement he said
that he wasn't appealing the ticket, that he would pay it.
MR. NEALE: Right. So I mean, what the board can chalk this
up to if they wish is that it was an interesting discussion of a situation,
but not necessarily take any action on him if he's going to pay the
fines. And really, if he just withdraws his contest, then that makes it
all simple. I don't have to issue two more orders.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. BLUM: Something came up in the testimony that I'm
interested in. I get the sense that they're forming an LLC in order to
circumvent the new workmen's comp laws? I know it doesn't have
any bearing, but I'm really curious about that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: LLCs are qualified as a corporation,
and they can do an LLC.
MR. BLUM: With how many people? I mean, you can have --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One -- three people. And all three
have to own 10 percent of the stock.
MR. BLUM: At least 10.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or at least 10 percent.
MR. WINTERS: And the acting managers, I believe. I was told
they have to be managers.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But there's only three people that can
be exempt for each corporation, and it can be an S, it can be a true
corporation or it can be an LLC. But it has to be one of the three.
The joy of our July meeting is going to be that the July 1
deadline will have passed. And not having a June meeting is
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May 19,2004
absolutely thrilling to me, because we're not going to have a wave of
people in here trying to figure out what they're going to do in two
weeks and look for us to cover them, which we have not been
covering them. So it would have been to no avail anyway.
MR. NEALE: I briefly reviewed the new workers' comp statute
since the last meeting, and there's not much wiggle in it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No.
MR. NEALE: It's -- it basically is either an on or off switch,
either you got it or you don't.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And session did not even consider --
the last session did not consider extending that July 1 deadline. That's
in stone.
Basically we're going to let you withdraw your protest, which
you really didn't make one anyway, you just wanted to make a
comment. And we're not going to deal with anyone else. But you did
get off easy. And they didn't protest the citation, so we're not going to
do anything more.
MR. WINTERS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay?
MR. WINTERS: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good luck to you.
MR. WINTERS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Got anything else, Mr. Bartoe?
MR. BAR TOE: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio?
MR. WINTERS: Where do I pay?
MR. BAR TOE: At our office on Horseshoe Drive, sir. Thank
you.
MR. LLOYD: Mr. Ossorio, do you have a -- did you want to
make a comment about this last item ? You had it in your eye, like
you had something more to say.
MR. OSSORIO: I had something, but unfortunately the
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May 19,2004
gentleman walked out, so we'll just save it for another time. I mean,
he's going to pay his fine. But, you know, I like to defend myself
when somebody comes in, contests a citation. We do it for a
particular reason, and we don't take it lightly.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Nor do we take it lightly or have we
ever taken it lightly on this board. I don't know of any citation that
we've ever overruled.
MR. OSSORIO: No, no, no. It's just that there wasn't really a
break, there was a -- we try not to give citations to sons and families of
the business. That's not what we're here for. But unfortunately there
was some problems in the next couple of days, that's when it occurred.
MR. BARTOE: They were attempting to skirt the system.
MR. LLOYD: Was the sys -- we can conduct this conversation,
Mr. Neale, since it's not a formal hearing, it's just a discussion?
MR. NEALE: Right.
MR. LLOYD: Was the sister on site?
MR. OSSORIO: Yes, the sister was on site, and that's not a
problem, she had her own license. But unfortunately, Mr. Winters
didn't tell that you his son and the older gentleman had their own
occupational license for wallpapering, and unfortunately they were not
doing wallpapering, they were painting. And I threw them off the job
the first day for a workmen's comp violation, due to the fact that Mr.
Winters is the main contractor on the site and there was no workers'
compo And then they came back with the occupational licenses, well,
we're licensed contractors now. Unfortunately, to be a licensed
painter you have to take the exam. There should have been a lot more
fines than that. We learned our lesson.
MR. LLOYD: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? That's why I'm
thrilled that July 1 is getting here.
MR. BESWICK: No good deed ever goes unpunished.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody have anything else? Do I
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May 19,2004
hear amotion?
MR. JOSLIN: Motion to adjourn.
MR. LLOYD: Second, Lloyd.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor.
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See you July 21st. Have a wonderful
summer.
(The meeting was adjourned at 10: 12 a.m.)
There being no further business for the good of the County, the
meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:12 a.m.
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR'S
LICENSING BOARD
LES DICKSON, CHAIRMAN
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT
REPORTING SERVICE, INC. BY CHERIE NOTTINGHAM
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