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CLB Minutes 04/21/2004 R April 21, 2004 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida April 21, 2004 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson Michael Baril David L. Beswick Sydney Blum Eric Guite' Richard Joslin Ann Keller ALSO PRESENT: Thomas Bartoe, Licensing Compliance Officer Robert Zachary, County Attorney Patrick Neale, Counsel to the Board 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: APRIL 21,2004 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: March 17,2004 V. DISCUSSION: VI. NEW BUSINESS: David W. Anderson - Request to qualify a second company Mark E. Riccio - Request to qualify a second company. Jimmy Contreras - Request to qualify a second company. John Stan - Request to qualify a second company. Joseph A. Belanger - Request to qualify a second company. VII. OLD BUSINESS: VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let's get going. Good morning. I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board, April 21 st, 2004. Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings; therefore may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made, which report includes testimony, evidence on which the appeal would be based. I'd like to start off with roll call to my right. MR. BESWICK: David Beswick. MR. BLUM: Sidney Blum. MS. KELLER: Ann Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. BARIL: Michael Baril. MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any additions or deletions to the agenda, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: Good morning, and for the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County Licensing Compliance Officer. And I have a form I passed out that Collier County permitting uses that we need to discuss. I don't know whether you want to add it -- wherever, sir, discussion or reports. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I need a motion for that. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Second? MR. BARIL: Second, Baril. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any-- MR. BARTOE: Staff has no other additions or deletions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, can we get a motion to approve the amended agenda? 2 '-' April 21, 2004 MR. BLUM: So moved, Blum. MR. BESWICK: Second, Beswick. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Also included in your packet are the minutes of last month's meeting. I hope you've had a chance to review them. If there's any corrections to the minutes, please let me know; otherwise, I need a motion to accept the minutes as written. MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion that we approve the minutes as written. MR. GUITE': I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No discussion. Gentlemen, we're moving fast. You're up next. New business. David Anderson, are you here? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No David Anderson. Mark Riccio. If you would come up to this podium here, I need for you to state your name and spell it for the reporter and she will swear you In. MR. RICCIO: Mark Riccio. R-I-C-C-I-O. (Speaker duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just give us a brief overview of what you're doing and why you're doing it. MR. RICCIO: Actually opening up a second business doing more tile and hard good services. The business I have now, we do mostly area rugs and wood flooring. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So the current business is wood and rugs? MR. RICCIO: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the 3 new business IS April 21, 2004 Contemporary Design Flooring of Naples, Inc.? MR. RICCIO: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And they're going to be doing other types of flooring? MR. RICCIO: We're going to be concentrating more on hard servIces. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Percentage of ownership? MR. RICCIO: I think I'm 49 percent, 51 percent. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you do have an investor? MR. BLUM: On the application, it says zero. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, it does. No, that's present business, isn't it? MR. BESWICK: 24.5 present business. MR. RICCIO: That's correct, on the present business now. MR. BLUM: It says zero on the-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you will have a percentage of the second business, correct? MR. RICCIO: That is correct. There must have been a mistake on that. MR. BESWICK: What was that percentage, please? MR. RICCIO: 49/51. MR. BLUM: Which? MR. RICCIO: I'm 49. MR. BLUM: You're 49? MR. RICCIO: Yeah. MR. BLUM: You will directly be involved in day-to-day operations, you'll know what's going on, who's doing the work, where the work is being done, contracts? MR. RICCIO: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is your partner in the business already? MR. RICCIO: Yes. 4 April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's all in here somewhere, isn't it? MR. RICCIO: It should be. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: John Snyder? MR. RICCIO: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What is CDF of Naples? Is that the name of his business? MR. RICCIO: As of right now I believe -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Contemporary Design okay. MR. RICCIO: Yes, CD!. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give us just a minute, we're looking over credit reports. MR. RICCIO: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We've got one on John Snyder, too. Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There is in the packet a credit report on his partner, John Snyder. But are we -- is that something we should be reviewing? MR. NEALE: It's not necessary to review it. The credit report that has to be there is his, actually. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I know, but there's some items on the -- Mr. Snyder's credit report that are questionable. MR. NEALE: Since Mr. Snyder's not the qualifier-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. NEALE: -- it's sort of irrelevant. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And he's not here to -- MR. JOSLIN: What percentage of this ownership are you going to have in this new company? MR. RICCIO: 49 percent. MR. JOSLIN: 49 percent. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next thing I'm looking at is insurance. I notice that you're exempt. But is there a certificate in the packet? 5 April 21, 2004 Are you going to have any employees? MR. RICCIO: Just myself and him, as of right now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: As of right now? MR. RICCIO: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And you realize that -- the new laws on workers' compo insurance? MR. RICCIO: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Are you going to subcontract installation? MR. RICCIO: Actually, he's going to be doing most of the installations. If we need to, we will have to cross that bridge when we get to it. But I don't -- as of right now it will be just myself and him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because I am aware that in your business, there is a lot of subcontracting by individuals that have no licenses, have no insurance. And you do realize the state is actively looking at your trade? MR. RICCIO: Yes, absolutely. I know. I'm very aware of that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very -- they are tenaciously looking at your trade. Major cases all over the state in your trade. MR. RICCIO: I know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. GUITE': Do you have general liability insurance? I don't see anything in here. MR. RICCIO: We should have general liability insurance; should be attached in there. If not, I can definitely get a copy of that. MS. KELLER: Do you have employees in your current business? MR. RICCIO: I think -- yes, we do have one employee, part-time employee, secretary. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He wouldn't have to show that, though. Any other questions from the board? 6 April 21, 2004 MR. JOSLIN: There's not a whole lot of things that I see really wrong with it, other than the fact that -- the insurance situation. Nothing on file here. I would say -- I'll make a motion to approve the application, with the exception that he provides a copy of all insurances needed as necessary . CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MR. BESWICK: Second, Beswick. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Real quick, any complaints on any of these individuals, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BAR TOE: Did you say complaints? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. BAR TOE: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we'll call for the question. All those in favor? MR. BESWICK: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? MR. BARIL: Aye, Baril. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Baril, okay. So you did pass. For your information, and everyone that's here, your packets are in this room right now. Don't go to contractor licensing today. Go there tomorrow or any time after tomorrow, but don't go over there today. We wish you well. MR. RICCIO: Thank you very much. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Jimmy Contreras, are you present? MR. CONTRERAS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you'd come up, sir. If you would 7 April 21, 2004 spell your name for the reporter and she'll swear you in. MR. CONTRERAS: My name is Jimmy Contreras. J-I-M-M-Y, C-O-N- T -R-E-R-A-S. (Speaker duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Another floor man. T ell us why you're qualifying a second entity. MR. CONTRERAS: Well, because both of our businesses kind of concur together. One of them is an installation company of slabs as opposed to the, you know, 16 by 16, 24 by 24 type of flooring that I've had in my own business for years. And we package deals together to builders to where we can come up with a better price as opposed to just doing it, you know, as individual companies. We just feel like we're more competitive that way. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So the Contreras Tile and Marble is really a supplier? MR. CONTRERAS: No, no, Contreras Tile and Marble is a flooring installation company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. CONTRERAS: Been for years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the limited liability corporation? MR. CONTRERAS: Is basically an installation of granite countertops, slabs and bathrooms, showers and stuff like that, as opposed to single pieces. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your percentage in the business, the new business? MR. CONTRERAS: I don't own any part of the new business. I just basically run sales and marketing and -- I do none of the installations at all. I'm not capable of installing no more. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So what's your involvement? What's your activity in the new business? MR. CONTRERAS: Well, pretty much running the sales and marketing of the business is pretty much my part of it. 8 April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How are you going to be paid? MR. CONTRERAS: I get paid pretty much commissions. I don't get a salary. And actually, as of right now, my only involvement is just communicating, because I've been -- I've been hurt and I just had surgery about a week ago, and I'm to undergo another surgery in about four or five weeks, and another four or five weeks after that I've got to have another surgery, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You know where I'm going with these questions, don't you? MR. CONTRERAS: No, sir, I don't. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're not selling your license, are you? MR. CONTRERAS: No, no, I'm not selling my license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. MR. CONTRERAS: These are people that I've known for a long time. I didn't just meet them just yesterday, I've known them for quite a few years here in the Naples area. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: When we see zero percentage ownership -- MR. CONTRERAS: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- that throws up a red flag. MR. CONTRERAS: Uh-huh. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Contreras, did someone from Platinum Coast receive a citation for contracting without a license? Is that the reason you're here to qualify them? MR. CONTRERAS: No, sir. And if they did, I don't know anything about it. MR. BARTOE: Okay. That's sometimes the case, you know, with our department. MR. BLUM: They try to do business before they get the qualifier. MR. BAR TOE: Right. By the name of the company, it's more 9 April 21, 2004 or less a supplier, and sometimes we have companies like this that go ahead and do the contracting to install, which of course is not legal. And once they get caught, they'll get somebody to come in and qualify them. MR. BLUM: Have you had that situation with these companies? MR. BARTOE: I haven't. And there's, you know, five of us. That's why I asked the question. He said if they've received a citation, he's not aware of it. And if that would be the case, you know, that would not really have any bearing on whether they should or shouldn't get a license, as long as the citation's taken care of. MR. BLUM: On the application to qualify, it says yes as far as bankruptcy or a crime. There has been a bankruptcy and there has been a crime that has been adjudicated? Do you know what that's about? MR. BESWICK: There's a DUI. MR. BLUM: Oh, DUI? MR. JOSLIN: There's one in there for DUI. MS. KELLER: And bankruptcy. MR. BLUM: How long ago was the bankruptcy? MS. KELLER: Can you elaborate a little bit more on this, because we just have this statement that doesn't really tell us. MR. CONTRERAS: What do you want to know? MS. KELLER: Like when and where you are in that process. MR. CONTRERAS: As far as what? MR. BLUM: The bankruptcy. MR. CONTRERAS: Oh, the bankruptcy is done. It was finalized in December of this last year. MR. BLUM: December of '03? MR. CONTRERAS: Yes, sir. MR. BLUM: Was that you, Contreras-- MR. CONTRERAS: That was me. MR. BLUM: -- or the other guy? 10 -'. April 21, 2004 MR. CONTRERAS: That was me. Yes, sir, I was injured on a job, let me see, in September of 2002, and got released from the doctor in November of 2003. And through that process, lack of income and just problems of -- we ended up in bankruptcy. And actually, I've got two creditors that I have to payoff, and these are creditors that have worked with me, willing to take as much money as I can give them every month. And I think I've only had a few people that were not willing to wait for their money; they demanded their money, you know, right immediately, and I didn't have it. And that pushed us into a situation where we had to, you know, protect ourselves. MR. BLUM: You still have ongoing medical problems that's going to need three more surgical procedures. How are you able to address your own installation company plus a new company? And you've got these evidently severe medical problems. It's kind of scary. MR. CONTRERAS: I have my brother who works with me in my flooring contracting business. And as far as with that and them, they pretty much run their operation as far as the field operations and stuff. All I do is work the sales and marketing, which I'm -- you know, a lot of times I'm able to do just from a desk and phone and contacting people and sending out, you know, as far as information on the company to different companies and stuff. MR. BLUM: Those are my questions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need your direction. We have credit reports from all the principals involved. And all of the credit reports are bad. So would you give us direction on what our authority is? MR. NEALE: Well, credit is obviously an issue in these -- where we refer is to Florida Administrative Code, which really is the determining language that is incorporated in the Collier County Ordinance. And it's in the Florida Administrative Code 61G4-15.006. The financial responsibility and grounds on which the board shall 11 ,--' April 21, 2004 refuse to qualify an applicant include the existence within the past five years preceding the application, unsatisfied court judgment rendered against the applicant based upon the failure of the applicant to pay its just obligations to parties with whom the applicant conducted business as a contractor; an unfavorable credit report or history, as indicated by any of the documents submitted; a determination by the board that the applicant lacks the financial stability necessary to assure compliance with the standards set forward in this rule. As guidelines for the determination of financial stability, the board shall consider the applicant's responses to the questions set forth on the application and the applicant's financial statement. The applicant's history of bankruptcy is included in the statutory definition of financial responsibility and shall be considered by the board. However, the fact that an applicant has been or is a debtor in bankruptcy shall not be the sole basis of the board's determination to deny the issuance of a license or request for a change of status. There is a footnote to this board -- rule wherein the Florida Attorney General in 1982 issued an opinion stating that the board may not consider past or present bankruptcy of applicant for certification as a contractor in determining whether to qualify the applicant for certification. So bankruptcy, because of the supremacy clause of the constitution, is something that really cannot be considered except in light of the rest of it. Financial responsibility, under the rule, and therefore, under our ordinance, is defined as the ability to safeguard that the public will not sustain economic loss resulting from the contractor's inability to pay his lawful contractual obligations. So the board, in looking at the financial statements and information, must review and determine whether the financial stability or lack thereof would affect his ability to act as a contractor and would endanger the public. 12 April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have any -- you know these people? MR. GUITE': No, I don't. I got a couple of questions. Again, I see no insurance for either entity here. MR. CONTRERAS: I'm sorry, sir? MR. GUITE': I see no insurance, no proof of insurance in the packet that you have general liability and workmen's compo MR. CONTRERAS: Well, it should be in there. I mean, I worked with the county as far as getting that packet together, and I asked them over and over up until last week to make sure they had everything, and they told me everything was in the packet. And I know we did have insurance faxed over there. MR. GUITE': And also in the credit, you have a federal tax lien. Is that still outstanding? MR. CONTRERAS: No, sir. MR. GUITE': That's been taken care of? MR. CONTRERAS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Other questions? MR. BLUM: My understanding is that in order to get credit from suppliers, do you have to sign personally as an owner? MR. CONTRERAS: Yes, sir. MR. BLUM: And how do your suppliers react? Because they're seeing what we're seeing. I mean, are you able to get a substantial credit line? Because-- MR. CONTRERAS: Yes, sir. MR. BLUM: -- in this business I know it's -- MR. CONTRERAS: As a matter of fact, our business is run off of 30-day accounts and we pay it. We can our accounts. MR. BLUM: And you have no problem with when (sic) your suppliers see what we're seeing? MR. CONTRERAS: No, I don't. 13 April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Contreras, what we're seeing up here, and so you can understand what we go -- first of all, none of this is personal. MR. CONTRERAS: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You and I don't even know each other, but we are charged by the county commissioners on this board not to approve a second entity that may have problems and become a financial burden to citizens of this county. What I'm looking at and what every board member is looking at, and that's why all the questions, you have zero percent ownership. That's not a reason to not approve a second entity, just so you understand. You don't have to own a percentage. But we look at your credit report, and it's bad. We look at the credit report of all the principals involved with this company you're going to qualify, and those are bad. Personally, and I'm only speaking for myself now, I don't speak for the other members, I have a real problem approving this company because of what I'm seeing on paper. Yeah, we can make a motion that you don't move without insurance, but I have a problem with the financial stability of this company. All three of the principals involved have bad credit and have credit problems that they're dealing with right now. You want to respond to that? MR. CONTRERAS: Well, I know that the bills are being paid to the company, I know that. And, I mean, as far as their credit being bad, I don't know the reason behind it, as far as the other two credit reports. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, and Mr. Neale, he makes a point on that, because we are dealing with a corporation which is a distinct entity. And as far as the credit reports of the entities, they're not negative. MR. NEALE: Well, and, you know, the test, as set out in the 14 -" April 21, 2004 rule and in our ordinance, is whether it would create a danger to the public for him unable to pay his contractual bills and his bills related to the contracting business, not his personal bills. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, see, Contreras Tile and Marble is clean. MR. GUITE': I'd like to correct myself. That was Vincent Spinelli that had the tax lien. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And the new company is clean. Of course, it hadn't been around long enough to have a credit rating. MR. BLUM: But isn't Mr. Spinelli going to be -- since he's a 100 percent owner, he's the one that's responsible for paying for the equipment that's going to be installed and we all know -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, and here's our problem, though, is we don't have any control over Mr. Spinelli. MR. CONTRERAS: Actually, Mr. Spinelli is not a 100 percent owner. You all don't have Edward Cosentino's -- Edward Cosentino's report up there either? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Well, his credit report's in here also and he's one of the ones I referred to as not being good. MR. CONTRERAS: All right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you're the one that's putting your license -- MR. CONTRERAS: Exactly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- on the line. You know, if something goes wrong with this company, it will also put Contreras Tile and Marble out of business -- MR. CONTRERAS: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- because we'll come after you and your license. I hope you've thought seriously about what you're doing. MR. CONTRERAS: I have. And, you know, I've talked to the 15 April 21, 2004 guys a lot, you know, and they're pretty open to response when I go to them and I tell them, you know, these certain things need to be paid, taken care of, you know, they're pretty responsive towards taking care of a lot of the issues that I have with them as far as, you know, keeping up with a lot of the bills, or if they can't pay a bill, you know, call the people, talk to them, let them know we're going to be five or six days late so we can get them paid. So I haven't had that problem with them. I've been around these guys for five or six years and know who they are, and I just feel they'll take care of their debts. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, any other questions of the board? MS. KELLER: Are you physically located in the same offices? MR. CONTRERAS: No, ma'am. MR. BARIL: Mr. Chairman, I'll move to deny Contreras application to qualify second entity. MR. BLUM: Second by Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a motion to deny and a second. Any discussion? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, all those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm sorry, but the board -- it's unanimous. It just doesn't look good on paper. What you may want to do from this point, there is a stipulation that allows you to have a financially responsible officer -- MR. CONTRERAS: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- which is basically an investor -- no? Correct me, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: Not in Collier County. No, we do not have the ability here in Collier to have a financial -- 16 April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We don't? MR. NEALE: No, that was something that the board had considered a couple of years ago and it was decided not to have because of the complexities of having it, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So we didn't approve it? MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. What would be his direction from here? MR. NEALE: He would have to find another licensed contractor to qualify that business. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Sorry for the bad news. MR. CONTRERAS: That's the only recourse we have, huh? I know we were issued our license less -- about a month ago in Lee County. There's no other -- no other route to go as far as getting a license, unless we find somebody else with a license here in Collier County? MR. NEALE: Since it appears to be primarily a financial responsibility issue, if -- I would think that if you could bring forward something like a bond or something like that to ensure payment of obligations, the board would certainly consider that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do we have a stipulation for that in county ordinances? MR. NEALE: We don't, but it would be -- you know, it would something the board could consider as a factor in financial responsibility. And it may cause the board to have a different decision then. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, the one thing I have a problem with on the county, if you ever qualify a -- get your license from the state, there are certain levels of, what am I looking for, personal equity that you have to prove in each category of license. MR. CONTRERAS: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The county doesn't have that. I've 17 April 21, 2004 never -- in 15 years, I've never heard anything about a bond. That's a new avenue for me. MR. NEALE: Well, you know, that's just something that -- it is available in the state statute and it's something that -- I'm not suggesting that that's something that would necessarily solve it, but certainly the -- it would be something the board could take into consideration in determining whether it would safeguard the public, as required under the statute and under the ordinance and under the rule. MR. JOSLIN: Or it's possible he could locate or come up with another person in this business who would be another partner with him. That would -- MR. NEALE: That -- even though it wouldn't be necessarily a financially responsible party or officer under the code, certainly if he had someone that was significantly financially responsible in the business and would guarantee the payment of debts, the board could certainly consider that, too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give it some thought. MR. CONTRERAS: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, thank you. MR. CONTRERAS: Thank you very much for your time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: John Stan, are you present? If you'd come forward, please. If you don't have the packet for Mr. Stan, he was on a previous meeting. MR. BARIL: Yeah, I need one. MR. GUITE': I need one, too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you two share that one? MR. GUITE': Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got one. Who else needs one? MR. BLUM: Me. I couldn't find mine. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Stan, please state your name and I'll have you sworn in, please. 18 .--'" April 21, 2004 MR. STAN: My name is John Stan, S-T-A-N. (Speaker sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What is this, the day for flooring contractors? What's going on in your business? Tell us why you're qualifying the second entity. MR. STAN: So I start the business last year and now more work coming, so I want to extend the company. My friend, he do the fabrication for countertops and marble, so I need to -- permit to make the company bigger and bigger and grow. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That doesn't explain to me why you're doing a second company. You can grow the company you already have. Why do you need a second company? MR. STAN: Yes, second company, because he build -- he's specialist in the manufacture of the countertops, granite and things like that. So I need to get together to extend the company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let me -- MR. GUITE': Why not just run it under one company? MR. STAN: Because a lot of work coming for the tiles and marbles and -- MR. GUITE': I understand that. But you could still run it under one company. MR. STAN: Because he's got the -- only the license for fabrication, so we got to get together, no? He got his own business and I got my own business. MR. BLUM: So he does fabrication and you do the installation; is that correct? MR. STAN: Yeah, I do the installation. MR. BLUM: But you don't know anything about granite, you just said, countertops. MR. STAN: Yeah, I do. I do the installation. I do the marble and he build the countertops, granite. And he is specialist in the layout of marble and tiles. So that is my plan, to get him to help me 19 April 21, 2004 out to join together and make grow the company. MR. GUITE': How many employees do you have? MR. STAN: I got two of them. MR. GUITE': Do you have Workmen's Comp? MR. STAN: Yeah, I got. MR. GUITE': We don't see any record of this in your packet. MR. STAN: It's there. It's in my -- I got corporation, I got two guys working here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You own 100 percent of the company you now qualify, correct? MR. STAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you will own 10 percent of the new company; is that correct? MR. STAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And who is your other partner? Is that George -- MR. S TAN: George Lambert. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And he will own the remaining 90 percent? MR. STAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And how will you be paid from the second company? MR. STAN: The second company, I got to pay -- I got to give him like percentage of the work and I got to pay him by like -- I don't know what the name is, like -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Will you be on a salary? MR. STAN: Yeah, like percent ofthe-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Profits? MR. STAN: Yeah, the profits. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you'll get a percentage of profits? MR. STAN: Yes. MS. KELLER: Well, by being owner of the company then-- 20 -'. April 21, 2004 MR. STAN: Yeah, I got it because the company, then I pay him percent of the -- percentage of the company. MR. BARIL: The Workers' Comp, we don't see it in our package. Is it a Workers' Comp exemption, is it a leasing company? Is it a Workers' Comp -- MR. STAN: I got the exemption for my company, myself, and I got Workers' Compensation for my workers. MR. BARIL: Is it Workers' Compensation or is it a leasing company? MR. STAN: No, for the Worker Compensation. I got the paper. MR. BARTOE: I have in his original file under Novelty Tile Marble, Incorporated, State of Florida, Department of Financial Services, Division of Workers' Compensation, reissuance of construction industry certificate of exemption. MR. STAN: For myself. MR. BAR TOE: And it's dated January 30th, 2004. Expires March 24th, 2005. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, so you don't have Workers' Compo The answer to that question was incorrect. You have exemptions. MR. STAN: I got the exemption -- I got for my workers Worker Compensation, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So it's you and two people? MR. STAN: Yes. MR. BLUM: So two people you have Workman's Compensation for? MR. STAN: Yes, for two people I got Worker -- MR. BLUM: Well, we don't see that certificate. MR. BARTOE: It's not in the packet. I do not see it in his original file, no, sir. MR. BLUM: How many people work for the new company, for the existing company? How many additional people are you going to 21 .--,". April 21, 2004 need for this new company to do the installation of the countertops? MR. STAN: So I got him and if I got more work, I got temporary people. MR. BLUM: So you're going to hire temporary help from a-- MR. S TAN: Yeah, temporary. MR. BLUM: -- temp. agency or something? MR. STAN: Yeah, temporary for the-- MR. BLUM: So it will still remain you and the two other guys? MR. STAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have there been any citations or complaints on either one of these people, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: Not to my knowledge, sir. Unless, like I said, this company he is trying to qualify has received a citation. Maybe he can answer that. MS. KELLER: I have a question. When companies are formed, there's a filing that says which -- who are the owners of the company. And I'm just wondering, that instead of asking on the application who owns what, if we can require that document to be included in the package so that we have the official record on percentage of ownership. Because it seems there's -- MR. NEALE: Well, when you incorporate in the State of Florida, you don't have to list any ownership. All you have to do is list one director and incorporate -- or you just list an incorporator. There's no -- the only -- it's something that, frankly, just came up in my practice recently, is the only people that have to know what your percentage of ownership is is the IRS. And that can be kept confidential. That's one of the reasons people have privately held companies, so that -- I mean, they -- it could be part of the affidavit that they could -- in fact, it is part of the affidavit. They have to swear to how much the ownership is, because they do swear that all of the information provided is correct. So you do have them on penalty of perjury at that point. 22 ,.... ,_....,..,.." .....-- April 21, 2004 MS. KELLER: Okay, I just -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In fact, usually that one person is the attorney filing the application, isn't it? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. Yeah. I mean, I've been the incorporator on many, many businesses in my time, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions? MR. BLUM: To me the only issue is the Workman's Compo Issue. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, we can make a motion subject to that. But he says it's just him and two others. He does meet it. Everyone on this board is aware of the new laws, aren't they? MS. KELLER: No, I'm not. Tell me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. As of January 1, they gave an extension to July 1 of this year. The only way you can get an exemption is to, number one, be a corporation, and secondly, you could only exempt three people, and all three people -- you need to make sure this is correct, it's my next question for you -- all three people have to own at least 10 percent of the stock of the company. Now, my question for you is, these two employees that are exempted, do they have ownership of your company? MR. STAN: Well, they don't have, so I get the other percent from the company, so I got -- I didn't get them, because I'm -- so when I apply for the -- after January I took 100 percent for the company. But not for them, because I pay them weekly. So they had not -- they are not part of company, so I paid them for work they do. So it's sometimes I don't have work, so they stay home, and when we got work, I pay them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you're basically subcontracting to them? MR. STAN: Actually they -- so -- yes, like subcontracting. Like my workers, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Piecemeal? 23 -" April 21, 2004 MR. JOSLIN: Do you pay them -- do you take withholding taxes and all the necessary taxes? MR. STAN: No, I got to give them like at the end of the year 1099. MR. BLUM: Then they have to have-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They have to have a license. MR. BLUM: They have to have the appropriate stuff. We now have another can of worms here we've just opened. MR. BESWICK: I'll say. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is all coming to a head, and it's coming -- that's one reason I think we're seeing some of these applications. And they have until July 1 st of this year to meet these qualifications. They gave a six-month extension. And there will be no extensions after that. Basically what's going out the window is ex empti ons. MR. STAN: I got to go back to my company for the Workers' Compensation and I see what going on, so to adjust everything. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I understand that. But everyone's in the same boat. Basically the state wants to get rid of exemptions. Quite honestly, I agree with them. Exemptions has been abused beyond belief. And then you have the other problem is, here you are a three-man operation, no insurance company wants your business, because you don't offer a large enough premium. And you have no history of losses because you've never had insurance. So it is a catch 22 situation. MR. STAN: Actually, I'm new in the business, so I start last, the year -- in 2003, so I don't have too much history in this business. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have companies that have been in business 20 years with exemptions, and now they can't get insurance because they've never really existed. The insurance is very difficult to get nowadays. 24 April 21, 2004 So you are subcontracting, and they don't have licenses. MR. JOSLIN: Don't look at me, I'm not -- MR. BLUM: They don't need licenses, but-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They do. If they subcontract, they have to have a license. MR. BLUM: Oh, if they're subbing, oh, yeah, I'm sorry. If he calls them a sub, yeah. MR. NEALE: Well, even if they are -- even if they are independent -- quote, unquote independent contractors working for him, because of the fact that they are independent contractors, it would be difficult for him to argue that they don't have to be licensed, because they do not directly report to him in that instance. MR. BLUM: Well, the definition is they're free to work for anybody. And if they happen to show up every day and he happens to give them work, well, that's wonderful. But the reality is, they work for him. He can't have it both ways. MR. NEALE: Yeah, well -- well, and the larger issue, frankly, from this board's point of view is the fact that if they are operating as independent contractors installing tile and marble, they have to be licensed. MR. JOSLIN: Or on his payroll. MR. NEALE: Or on his payroll. They can be on his payroll. But if they're acting as independent contractors working for him and potentially other people -- MR. BLUM: So he can p ut them on the payroll and still give them 1099s and not take out deductions? MR. NEALE: That's an IRS issue. MR. BLUM: But we're hearing -- MR. NEALE: But if they have to show up at the same place every day and he gives them a paycheck at the end of the week, whether he takes deductions out or not, I think the IRS would argue that it doesn't meet the indicia of an independent contractor. 25 ",-...,.., April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In two and a half months it's not going to be a problem, because all exempted employees are going to have to show 10 percent ownership of the company. This will become a moot point. Okay, under the credits and order, insurance is not an order. What's the direction of the board? MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion that we at this point deny this application. MR. BARIL: Second, Baril. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have a motion to deny the application under -- let me just clarify. For what reason? MR. JOSLIN: Due to the credit situation, due to the fact that there's no insurance valid in the packet. Due to the fact that he has admitted that he has people that are employed by him, that he's paying himself as an outside contractor or outside laborer. And I don't think that we need to add more mayhem to the license that he already holds, if we're going to give him another license. I cannot vote for that. MS. KELLER: I also don't see the reason for the second company. I mean, the business could be done under the original company. MR. JOSLIN: Right. From what I can see, the first business isn't being run correctly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We're in discussion, and I agree with you there. If the first business is not being run correctly, I've got a real problem with a new one. MR. GUITE': He'd be better off giving 10 percent to the other person and still have control of his license, rather than just give his license away to somebody else. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are we in the guidelines, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any other discussion? MS. KELLER: I was just thinking how interesting it will be 26 April 21, 2004 when the exemptions go away and people are owning 10 percent of a company, that means that they're financially liable for the company that they're working for, so -- and that's the flip side of it. But, you know, if people say well, we'll give you 10 percent of the company, they may not realize that at that point they become liable as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, and I've heard it from another aspect, too, from the litigation phase, for the suits in the audience, is employees that have been exempted, and this law goes into effect, and they've been exempted for years, suing for their 10 percent ownership that they were deprived of. That's going to happen. MS. KELLER: Yeah, exactly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We are sorry. Our answer is no. You've heard the reasons. MR. BARIL: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. BARIL: It seems that the word is out in the tile and marble industry around town that you can come before this board and you can get a second entity approved with little resistance. I would offer that most of these companies are just circumventing the Workers' Compensation insurance issues that are out there. And quite frankly, I had a Workers' Comp investigator visit one of my jobs just recently, and they had found that the electric subcontractor that I hired had employees who were not covered. And his leasing company, which had been terminated, was also not sufficient. Workers' Comp almost shut down my project. As a general contractor, I think it's our obligation not to let 27 -..'", April 21, 2004 subcontractors get these exemptions so easily. I would ask, Mr. Neale, is it within our power to deny applications on the ability to prove financial stability and responsibility due to the fact that these subcontractors who hire leasing companies for their Workers' Comp or exemptions for their Workers' Comp, are they putting the general contractors and the general public at risk because they do not have proper insurance? And can we deny applications based on the fact that they don't have a legitimate Workers' Comp policy? MR. NEALE: Certainly insurance is a major issue, and they do have to show proof of appropriate insurance of all types to be able to qualify a business, and Workers' Comp being one of the primary ones. So certainly, you know, they're supposed to put proof of Workers' Compensation or a valid exemption in the packet. And I would suggest that if they do use an employee leasing company, that they would have to -- employee leasing company, having used them in the past myself in my own business, they have the ability to generate a certificate of Workers' Compensation insurance with the appropriate guarantees. So they can ask the leasing company to provide that. MR. BARIL: But the leasing companies could be issuing the -- or covering certain employees, but not all of the employees. According to the Workers' Comp investigator, before you do business with a subcontractor who uses a leasing company, you have to ensure that the employee that is on your job is actually the employee that is covered. And that's a lot of work for general contractors to have to go through. You could have employees who do not have coverage. MR. NEALE: I would suggest that if that is a concern of the board, that it could be required, requested of all applicants, for second entities particularly, that they provide proof that all employees that are going to be working on their jobs that are leased employees be shown to be listed on the policy. Because they can give you a declaration of 28 --,..' April 21, 2004 coverage, the leasing company can, showing who's covered on the policy and in what category. They can also show what category they're covered in, whether they're covered as office worker, you know, roofers or whatever. MR. BARIL: And that brings me back to the first application today, Mr. Riccio, who had a company that obviously required more manpower than two people with Workers' Comp exemption. And I would just like to state for the record that from now on, if I don't see a legitimate Workers' Comp policy or proof of insurance for each employee, I will continue to vote no for all of these applications. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. JOSLIN: Good point. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree. It is a nightmare. And the other thing that we have going on right now -- you're free to -- doesn't really pertain to you. Thank you for coming. We have two cases right now with leasing companies that were being paid -- that were not paying their premiums and were canceled, insurance company was canceled. But they didn't tell their clients for six months that they had no coverage. But yet they were still -- the other thing on the flooring industry, the fraud division is targeting the flooring industry, because everyone knows what happens up here on Trade Center or J &C every morning, is all the vans pull up there to the warehouses, load up the carpet, load up the tile and they go out and do the jobs for all of these flooring companies. None of them are employees, they're independent contractors. It's a -- in 75 days, it's coming to an end. Because next time I see an exemption certificate, I want to see the 10 percent ownership for the employees he's got. MR. JOSLIN: Do you have another question? MR. STAN: I got the insurance for the two guys I got at home. I got from the -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come back, come back all the way up if you're going to talk. 29 ,.....--'" Apri121,2004 MR. ST AN: So I got the insurance for the guys that work for me. So I got the -- I didn't -- first I went and applied. They, the insurance company faxed just the first page of application, but later on the company send me the insurance for the guys. So I got the paper home. I didn't know I need have here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, you have two employees and in your -- MR. S TAN: Yeah, I got insurance for them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- let me explain. And in your testimony you said that you pay them for the work that they do when there's work available. If they don't work, they don't get paid. MR. STAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But then you said they're exempted. Well, first of all -- MR. STAN: Well, I-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me finish, let me finish. Don't interrupt me. MR. STAN: All right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: First of all, I have no exemption form in your packet. N ow if you bring me an exemption form and attach it to this packet, I want to see that they have 10 percent ownership in the company. If you don't have those two things, then I want a Workers' Comp policy. And until those things happen, you're not going to get by this board qualifying the second entity, because you're not running your current company correctly. Your testimony hurt you when you said you pay them for the work they do and if they don't work, they don't get paid. So we know what's happening, you're paying them on a per job basis. MR. STAN: Yeah, I said like this so for the insurance. So I am exemption, I got insurance for them, Workers' Compensation, okay? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, you don't have insurance for them. 30 April 21, 2004 MR. STAN: I got paper. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not in this packet. MR. STAN: No, not here. But I -- but later -- I receive later on from the company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you get a Workers' Comp policy -- MR. STAN: I got-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- and you take it back to Maggie at contractor licensing, come back through. MR. STAN: Okay. MR. JOSLIN: And we'll see you again next month. MR. STAN: First all. Second of all, you said my workers should have the 10 percent for the -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If they're exempt. MR. STAN: No, they have insurance. I have insurance for them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Then you're going to have to show it to us. MR. STAN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? MR. STAN: All right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See you soon. Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Is there is any chance he could bring that form today? MR. BARIL: Uh-uh. Witness hasn't been sworn in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no. No, it's going to have to be the next meeting. Mr. Bartoe, please let Maggie know, one of our primary focuses is insurance. Okay? MR. BAR TOE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Especially with the changes coming up. And please explain to her the -- Maggie's a bright woman, I shouldn't be saying this. And all those people there. But if they bring 31 April 21, 2004 an exemption certificate, then show us. Our next question is going to be, prove their 10 percent ownership, okay? And Mr. Neale, both of you guys, am Ion line here? MR. NEALE: I don't see any problem in requiring them to have the appropriate insurance and comply with the laws of the State of Florida. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I am interpreting that new law correctly? MR. NEALE: I'm going to review it myself to make sure that that's correct, but yeah, I believe it is. MR. BARIL: And as far as leasing companies, how would we determine that the employee that is listed on the policy -- would we have to have require that they bring in quarterly tax reports showing that those employees have been on the payroll? MR. NEALE: I think as long as they can provide a declaration page from the -- from the employee leasing company showing that the employees they have are on there. Because, you know, we're getting them to swear to the statements that they're making, so, you know, they would be committing perjury if they lied about who was covered. But they should bring probably a Workers' Compo declaration page from their employee leasing company. And as I say, having dealt with employee leasing companies, usually they'll fax that to you by just on request, so -- MS. KELLER: What about a consumer? How does a consumer deal with this? If I call up and they send somebody, how do I know that they have the insurance, and what kind of liability do I have in the event that there's a problem? MR. NEALE: Well, it's one of those things that it certainly pays the consumer to say I want to make sure, you know, because a lot of companies will advertise that they're licensed and insured. Well, in some cases that means that they've got an occupational license and they've got insurance on the van. 32 , ...........--,....,.."... April 21, 2004 MR. JOSLIN: Driver's license. MR. NEALE: Or they've got a driver's license and they got, you know, hospitalization. But it would be appropriate for consumers to ask to see, particularly if you're going to have them doing, you know, work on your roof or something like that, that they have a Workers' Compensation coverage or appropriate exemptions, because it could significantly endanger the homeowner if they have an accident on your property and they don't have Workers' Compensation insurance, they're going to go after the homeowner. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me clarify that, though. If I -- if there's a permit on a consumer's job pulled for that work, I can assure you, they have insurance. Because the county is tenacious -- in fact, it's a nightmare the first week of January every year, because everyone renews it the first of the year. If the county does not have my certificate of insurance for liability and Workers' Comp in file, that computer will not spit out a permit. Where your liability is is unpermitted work, which is flooring, painting. MR. BAR TOE: And the computers even go so far as if your insurance expired last night at midnight and you called in for an inspection today, you're not going to get it. Computers are set up that we didn't get the new policy, so you're done until you get the new policy to us. MR. NEALE: Some of the big hazards, though, are things like tree trimming, pressure washing roofs. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pressure washing roofs, uh. MR. NEALE: Things that are fraught with danger just by their very nature and yet do not necessarily have to be permitted. MS. KELLER: Something can be permitted and they can send somebody else. They don't have to send the workers. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They can do that, but the insurance company has then been defrauded by the contractor and there's still a 33 April 21, 2004 contractual liability to the homeowner -- MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- and then they go after the contractor. MR. BARIL: Isn't it interesting that we don't have a lot of roofing contractors and electricians in here looking to qualify second entities. I think that the tile industry has just abused this avenue. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I would not trust another person in my trade with my license. MR. BARIL: Neither would I. MR. GUITE': I wouldn't trust another person in my trade with my license and I'm in the flooring business. MR. BLUM: None of us up here would. None of us would. MR. BESWICK: Absolutely. MR. GUITE': If it keeps going, every contractor in the county is going to have their own personal tile guy. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, there is some second entities that are being qualified to circumvent this new law, but they've heard today that we want to see the 10 percent ownership. MR. JOSLIN: I think what I've seen happening is that you have like large companies that -- even general contractors that are buying, you know, thousands and thousands say, of square feet of tile. Same thing with yardage of carpeting. They're going to the Home Depot, they're going to the Lowes and are buying their material, and then they're just having Lowes or Home Depot install it because it takes the heat off of them as far as installation. And then Home Depot or whatever hires whatever contractors to come in and put this in. Or they hire a tile company or a carpet company to come in. And no disrespect, but they're hiring people off the street to come in with their vans and here, I'll pay you, you know, $500, to go put this tile -- or this carpet down and they just cut them a check and that's it, it's a done deal. 34 April 21, 2004 MR. GUITE': I see that happening every day. Every day I see that and then I get calls from people, oh, my tile's popping up, my grout is cracking, and it's -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's changing quickly. MR. BARIL: And I take issue with -- two issues of it. One, the people who do have the insurance are being underbid by those without. And also, the fact that I wasn't aware that I could have been shut down. If I didn't have a full general Workers' Comp policy, these employees who were not covered, if they were injured on the job, it would be my insurance policy which they would have looked to to recover any losses on. And I don't think that everybody's aware of that. And I want to make people aware of it, because I would hate for us to issue a second entity and then have a contractor get his job shut down or get a lawsuit from a Workers' Comp claim on his policy when he is assuming that this individual that they hired had proper insurance, had a certificate from that subcontractor, which was my case. MR. BLUM: No matter what, you still got to have to have your builder's risk policy if you got a full company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, it's going to -- it's changing. MR. BLUM: You just better have that no matter what. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The fraud division of the State of Florida has added six new investigators for this area. That was part of the new budget with the Workers' Comp revisions. And they are tenacious. My advice, I used to have people that I would subcontract roofing work to. They had state licenses, they had their own insurance liability, Workers' Comp, totally clean. I've done away with that, just because the investigations are just absolutely rampant. And anybody out there that's not playing by the rules is going to get caught. And then we've got our own people that are out there looking. Okay, now, with all that, the next guy is going to be very 35 April 21, 2004 fortunate. Joseph Belanger. Aren't you glad you're not a flooring contractor? Come up here, sir. MR. JOSLIN: It's a real good thing you're not a flooring contractor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State your name and spell your name and I'll have you sworn in. MR. BELANGER: Joseph Belanger, B-E-L-A-N-G-E R. (Speaker duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, tell us what you're doing and why. MR. BELANGER: Okay. I do subcontracting work for Contractors Supply, because they don't have a leasing license, so I do the work for them, as they also use a couple other glazing companies. But they're getting too much for me, so I've been turning down the work, so they want to do their own set of employees to do their own installations. So in the meantime, they're training a guy to go to the state to get a state license. And in the meantime, I'm going to let them use my license until they can get their guy going. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Exactly the scenario we were just talking about, correct? MR. JOSLIN: Yes. MR. BLUM: Yeah. MR. BELANGER: Unfortunately, it's my -- well, to be honest with you, it's my ex-wife is working for this company, and she's finagled me into it. I'm going willingly, it's just that she's talked me into it, you know. It's supposed to be a temporary thing for, like, the next six months and then they're going to get their own license. He says he's got a lot of work he's turning down because he doesn't have a license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you are a licensed subcontractor 36 April 21, 2004 MR. BELANGER: Yes, I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- with insurance. MR. BELANGER: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You do have insurance? MR. BELANGER: Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Workers' Comp? MR. BELANGER: Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And so you're going to qualify them because they're getting rid of subcontractors. MR. BELANGER: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And bringing them in under the umbrella. That's what I see happening in this state. The legislation was absolutely brilliant. MR. JOSLIN: Which is what -- now, wait, you lost me there. You're a subcontractor? MR. BELANGER: See, they're a supply house where they supply windows and doors, things like that. And the people they're supplying to don't want them just dropped off on the job, they want them installed also. So they're using my company, as well as another company, for doing the labor on it. So then they got to pay a markup on my labor, they got to pay a mark -- you know -- and it's putting them out of the market because they can come to me and, you know -- but I don't do the residential too much. I do mainly commercial work. So the work that they're doing is mainly residential. So they're trying to get their own guys. And they're getting too large for me anyway for the amount of work that they're wanting to do. I can't keep up with what they're doing. MR. BLUM: So you're just being a nice guy and letting them have your license because you want to help them out? MR. BELANGER: Well, they're going to give me a percentage. MR. BLUM: It says zero here, so -- MR. BELANGER: No, just of the sales. 37 April 21, 2004 MR. BLUM: Excuse me? MR. BELANGER: Just of the sales. MR. BLUM: You'll get a percentage of all their sales? MR. BELANGER: Just what they use my license for, yeah. MR. BLUM: You have an accountability, as far as you know, that if they do 10 sales and they use your license for four of those sales you know which four they're using it for and you have direct control over how that's being done? MR. BELANGER: I don't have direct control, no. MR. BLUM: You have direct knowledge of the people and the job and when it's going to be done and how it's gong to be completed and all that? MR. BELANGER: They're going to -- on each one that they use, they're going to give me a packet on each job that they sell. MR. BLUM: So you'll have the opportunity then to oversee it and to know what's going on? MR. BELANGER: Yeah, I'll be able to -- MR. BLUM: And you'll be able to take responsibility because it's your license. MR. BELANGER: Right. And they're going to give me addresses or something and I'm going to go check the work. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Plus you said your wife worked there, right? MR. BELANGER: Well, ex-wife. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your ex-wife. MR. BELANGER: She's still working there, yes. MR. JOSLIN: But you're still technically going to be licensing the other work that they're not giving to you. MR. BELANGER: They're going to carry all their people on their own insurance, and they're giving me a letter of -- they're going to hold me -- I forgot how it was worded, but-- MR. BAR TOE: Harmless? 38 April 21, 2004 MR. BELANGER: Yeah, harmless, that's-- MR. BLUM: You can't be held harmless. You can't. MR. BELANGER: That's what I was trying to explain to them. MR. BLUM: It can't be done. MR. JOSLIN: You put your license up to the licensing company, you can't -- MR. BELANGER: They're going to hold me as an additional insured on their insurance. MR. BLUM: What about these new guys that they hire to do the four jobs out of 10 that you're going to be responsible for, one of them screws up. It's your license that's going to go away. MR. BELANGER: Yeah, I understand. MR. JOSLIN: Doesn't sound like you're -- MR. BLUM: And you've got zero percent. MR. JOSLIN: Doesn't sound that like you're really responsive to doing this. I mean, honestly. I mean, are you? MR. BELANGER: I'm sorry? MR. JOSLIN: Are you very responsive about doing this for them? It sounds like you're very -- MR. BLUM: It sounds like you're getting -- MR. JOSLIN: -- a little bit reserved on wanting to do this for them. MR. BELANGER: It's a lot of personal stuff on the ex-wife's side and -- MR. JOSLIN: I understand that. But we're not talking personal here, we're talking business, which could ruin your life. MR. GUITE': It could be worse than the ex-wife. MR. BARIL: Let me ask you this: Ifwe were to turn you down, would we be doing you a favor? That's how I'm feeling. MR. BELANGER: Business-wise, probably. Personal, no. Because then I -- I've got a child with her, and it seems like things -- MR. BLUM: It won't be your fault. 39 April 21, 2004 MR. BELANGER: -- could be taken out on this child. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's keep in mind, we're on television. MR. JOSLIN: Well, tv or not. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I know. I'm just letting him know he's on television. MR. BELANGER: I didn't know that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. BELANGER: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I want you to be aware, though, that if one of these employees of that company gets hurt or they do some bad work or they don't pay a bill, we will not call anyone at the supply house, we will call you. And the one that will be financially responsible is you. You'll have to pay their bills. Because if we -- this board renders a judgment against you, that's enforceable by the Collier County Sheriffs Department. And it goes to you, it does not go to the corporation. If there's a violation of fraud or anything like that, you are the one that would be arrested, not anyone over at Contractors Supply. And if a license is taken away, it will be your license. That's the liability you have. It is major. MR. BARIL: I have a question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. BARIL: Earlier you said that they're going to have their guys do the installations. Did you mean to say that Contractors Supply is going to hire installers as employees and they'll have installation equipment, or are they going to subcontract to other companies? MR. BELANGER: They're subcontracting now. They want to have their own employees to do the work for them. And they were training a guy to go get a license so that he could -- they could qualify himself. But apparently he's not catching on or something, I'm not sure. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Neale, I would have a question for you. 40 , ,,--""""'" April 21, 2004 MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. MR. JOSLIN: On the license that we're trying to qualify for this gentleman, or he's asking for, is it possible to put it onto like a period of time where we can grant this license for, say, a 90-day period? MR. NEALE: The board can issue licenses for a restricted period of time for good reasons, or they can issue restricted licenses where the license is only valid for a certain segment of the trade. The board has done that in the past. So the board could do something like that for a restricted period of time. MR. JOSLIN: The reason why I'm thinking this or considering something like this is only because of the feelings and the feedback I'm getting from the license holder now. Mr. Belanger, you don't sound like you're really involved -- you really want to get involved in this, but -- or I think you know the seriousness of it, if you do. But on the other hand, I can understand your situation as far as what maybe you need to feel obligated to do because of your -- because of family, which I don't think is a problem. I would be more considerate to have a motion of that -- to that effect for a period of time. That would put your company on the page to get somebody down to take the test so you can go back to being yourself and relax a little bit and you've still done your justice. I don't know if you want discussion on that, but that's my feeling. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I don't see an insurance certificate for the Contractors Supply, Incorporated, correct? MR. GUITE': No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not in the packet. I don't see a credit report for Contractors Supply, Incorporated. MS. KELLER: Yeah, it's right here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is it? MS. KELLER: Yeah, it's good. MR. BARTO E: Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Neale, the 41 -..---' --"" April 21, 2004 insurance is not needed until they come in to obtain a license. Why go pay for that insurance and then come before this board and get denied? MR. NEALE: That is true. I mean, they should have -- they should have insurance for the entity that they are qualifying, I guess. MR. BARTO E: Right. MR. NEALE: And they have to provide proof of that, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But I don't see insurance for South Florida Glass either. That brings up a point, though, that we need to discuss. MR. BARTOE: It's probably in the original packet here. His license would not have got renewed this year without it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, that's true. Okay, thank you. MR. BLUM: This seems to fall under one of the guidelines that we've talked about. This man isn't selling his license, he's giving it away for no compensation, basically for personal reasons, just being a nice guy. He's got no overview, he doesn't even want to do residential, he wants to do commercial. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But he did say he's going to inspect the jobs that are done and he'll be given a list of every job that's done, correct? MR. BELANGER: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You just don't have any check writing authority. MR. BELANGER: No, I don't. MR. BLUM: And he doesn't have time to do the work for them now, he's so busy. But he's going to have time to check all these jobs. I have doubts. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, cover us. MR. NEALE: Well, there is a corporate resolution in here from Contractors Supply, authorizing Mr. Belanger to act for them in all matters connected with its contracting business. So they have delegated that authority to him, specifically empowered him to do 42 ....-" April 21, 2004 that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The only thing I see here, and I'm speaking on behalf, really, at this point for Contractors Supply, Incorporated, this is the type of scrambling that this new legislation has created on a lot of people. It wasn't -- of course, it's almost been a year since they passed the legislation, but some people move slower than others. I see Contractors Supply trying to get their business in order. Are you familiar with them? MR. GUITE': No, I'm not. MR. BARIL: I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you? MR. BARIL: They do millwork, doors and trim, windows. Nice company -- they -- door hardware. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good company? MR. BARIL: Good company. They have financial stability. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And here they are trying to get -- now they need the license, they're going to quit the subcontracting, which should have been a nightmare for them. MR. BARIL: And they're going to have employees with Workers' Compo coverage. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Employees. I don't want to chastise someone who's trying to get things right. I just want you to understand the liability that you have. MR. BELANGER: Yes. MS. KELLER: Well, I don't know if they'll really gotten things right, though. I mean, if you're going to change your business plan, then you have to budget or you have to plan for that change. And they have a gap, and so they made a mistake. They still need to subcontract until they have a person that can take the license, in my opInIon. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, if he qualifies the company 43 April 21, 2004 today, then they don't have to subcontract anymore. MS. KELLER: Right, but -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And he's -- they're using him as an interim. They're using your license -- MR. BLUM: Right, I'm with you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- that you're going to be -- until they get a license holder. MR. BELANGER: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So I'm not so much against approving it, but I'd like to put a time limit on it. MR. GUITE': If we do issue the license, what's to stop him from changing his mind in a month and, well, this isn't working out like planned, can he take his license back and -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He can always cancel the license, can't he, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BAR TOE: The one that if it gets approved today? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, and he doesn't like it 30 days from now. MR. BELANGER: Say it's a raw deal or something? MR. NEALE: He can always resign as qualifier. He can say that I will no longer qualify this business, advise the board, and then they have to find another qualifier. If he advises the contractor licensing office that he's no longer willing to qualify this business, they have no qualifier, and they have to find somebody to qualify. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then they fall under that death statute, don't they? MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No new permits, they've got 60 days to finish up what they had going until -- but after 60 days, all work stops. MR. BAR TOE: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You aware of that? You just were 44 April 21, 2004 made aware 0 f it. MR. BELANGER: Yes. MS. KELLER: I have a problem with this, though, because they're taking our time, people are going to be coming up, saying, you know, we want 60 days to borrow this license until we get somebody who can qualify. And I don't think it's fair to the board to take up our time and send a message that we're accep -- we'll accept something like this under these terms. I just don't think it's right. MR. BLUM: I don't either. Let them -- let Contractors Supply continue paying the subs, let them get somebody to take the test. Hey, we're coming in, we'll license our own business. Terrific, I'm all for it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give me a motion. MR. JOSLIN: Motion to deny. MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. BESWICK: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? MR. BARIL: Aye, Baril. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, you deny the denial? MR. BARIL: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Tell them it was voted down. We didn't like it. MR. BELANGER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Anderson, you were number one on the list, but since you were late, you get to listen to everybody else. 45 ".,-'" -'- April 21, 2004 MR. ANDERSON: My apologies to the board. I appreciate it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State your name, I'll have you sworn In. MR. ANDERSON: David Anderson, A-N-D-E-R-S-O-N. (Speaker sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're changing from a corporation to an LLC? MR. ANDERSON: Qualifying a second company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ah, so you're keeping the corporation. MR. ANDERSON: The corporation will remain. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why? MR. ANDERSON: I own 50 percent of the existing entity, and I will own 100 percent of the new entity, giving me unilateral rights to do anything I want with it and having responsibility for successes and failures of it and going into directions that I'm not able to go into now because I don't have that unilateral ability. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is unusual. It's totally reversed from what we always see. You own 100 percent of the new company and part of the one you're now qualifying. MR. ANDERSON: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. ANDERSON: The original company was actually four owners to begin and is now two. I mean, it literally went the whole opposite direction. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gotcha. Anybody know this man? MR. JOSLIN: I know the man from somewhere. I'm not sure where. I've seen you around town. I'm not sure exactly where but I know I know you. MR. ANDERSON: I've been on several different locations with several builders. MR. JOSLIN: Yeah, right. 46 April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We usually know most of the people that come here. Six of us are contractors, three of us, or three of the board are consumers. MR. ANDERSON: Should I leave some business cards? MR. BARIL: Not a bad idea. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But there's only, what, two generals? And we've got a flooring contractor, swimming pool, roofing. MR. BLUM: Electric, HV AC. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: HV AC, yeah. MR. ANDERSON: You need a trim carpenter. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I could trim my roofs. MS. KELLER: Send in your application. MR. BARIL: Mr. Anderson, how many employees are you anticipating with the LLC? MR. ANDERSON: Nine to 12. Probably on the lower end of that. There's a ceiling I want to achieve, but I don't want to get too much bigger than that as far as the business plan. MR. BARIL: And they have insurance? MR. ANDERSON: Everybody is insured. I am exempt. I have insurance on everybody. Everybody I employ is a W-2, except for one person, who was a W - 2 until recently that he has acquired his own -- started his own company and qualif -- actually came before you guys last month, I think, or a month before and has a qualified company with his own insurance or his own exemption on his company. MR. BARIL: But licensed? MR. ANDERSON: And licensed and insured, and -- yes, absolutely. MR. BARIL: That's perfectly legal. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, see this letter that Insurance Management Corporation gave us, Mr. Bartoe, the last page. Okay, maybe a brand new company doesn't want to go pay for the insurance policy, but I'd like to see something like that letter in the packets. 47 -" April 21, 2004 That's a good letter. MR. BESWICK: That's great. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Doesn't cost him a penny to get-- MR. NEALE: And it reflects that the contractor understands the concept. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, he understands the concept. Do you actually physically do the work? MR. ANDERSON: Sometimes. Ten percent-ish. I'm trying to do none, but there's times whether the labor pool is not -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The only reason I'm saying that is if you get to the point to where you're not actually doing the work, you can go under your policy as a supervisor -- MR. ANDERSON: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- and it's like three cents on 100. MR. ANDERSON: As far as the Workers' Comp? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, it's the cheapest insurance you can ever buy. MR. ANDERSON: Now, if I'm exempt under the current situation, would that not still be less than the three percent that I would pay as a supervisor? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, I mean, it's not even three percent, it's like three-tenths of a percent. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. MR. BLUM: And then you are covered if something happens. It's worth your while. MR. ANDERSON: Okay, I hear what you're saying. MR. BLUM: It's well worth your while, personally. MR. ANDERSON: I fully understand what you're saying, yes, I will be doing that. MR. BLUM: It's the cheapest personal insurance you can get. MR. ANDERSON: But I have to be 100 percent out of the field at that time. 48 ,-" April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You have to be a supervisor. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. With doing no labor whatsoever. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Supervisory, they've got sales. Cost you like two or $300. I'm not exempt. Roofing, you know how high roofing is. But I'm under a supervisor category. It's cheap insurance. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. With the advantage of having the Workers' Comp. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You think you're saving a lot of money, you're not if you're in those categories. MR. BLUM: You walk on a construction site with a hard hat, something happens to you on the site, Workmen's Comp covers you. It's kind of nice. MR. ANDERSON: Yes, that's -- I appreciate the advice. That's good information. MR. BLUM: I have that also. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Packet is in excellent order. It's the best packet I've seen in a long time. MR. ANDERSON: I'll let me wife know that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You obviously pay your bills, because your credit report is impeccable. MR. BARIL: Move to approve Anderson application to qualify second entity. MR. BESWICK: Second, Beswick. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're going to be the quick one today. I've got a motion to approve. All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Approved. Do well. MR. ANDERSON: I will. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You weren't here. Your paperwork's here, don't go see Maggie today. MR. ANDERSON: Tomorrow. 49 """-' ,-' April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tomorrow. MS. KELLER: It's too bad that you didn't go first so you could show everybody else how it needs to be done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I wish they were here. MR. ANDERSON: I've enjoyed the meeting watching everybody else go through, so -- MR. BARIL: Leave your card on the table. MR. ANDERSON: I'm going to do that. I'm going to leave a couple of them on the table. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Well, at least we ended showing that we're not a bunch of jerks. MR. BLUM: I think we proved we're not jerks from square one today. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, we ended well. There's no old business, no public hearings. In reports, we have two items. I'm just going to read you a letter real quick and let Mr. Bartoe go through this. Sorry that I didn't meet the time frame that I gave some of you, but we got into some important business today. I had to -- in March I had to go before the Board of County Commissioners and make a report to the County Commissioners on this board. I received this letter from Donna Fiala, who is the Chairman. She said on behalf of the Board of County Commissioners, I wish to extend our appreciation for your presentation. She said the board's participation and leadership of this worthwhile board has proven to be very beneficial to our community. The time expended and efforts put forth by the members are reflected in the resulting accomplishments. We ask that you extend our appreciation to all the members of the board for a job well done, and encourage you to continue with your efforts on behalf of the residents and the visitors of Collier County. 50 April 21, 2004 In 15 years on this board, this is the second letter I've gotten like that. Very nice. They were emphatic to all of you how much time you put on this board, the record of this board, the job that they have done and how much they depend on us in this industry. Especially when I reported to the Board of County Commissioners the number of calls, which I added to over the numbers you gave me, Mr. Bartoe. But I used the figure, and I think it was conservative, some 400 calls a month into your office. And that's very conservative, isn't it? MR. BAR TOE: I would say, probably. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There are in excess of 400 complaints a month that go to that office. You only see a very fraction of what they don't handle. But I think it's a crucial board, and it does protect the citizens of this county. Mr. Bartoe, you're up. MR. BARTOE: What I have to discuss, I handed a form to the board members, and for our attorneys to look at that the county has used for years. This came to my attention last week. This is for when an owner/builder pulls a permit. And the second paragraph on there says that I understand I may only obtain one owner/builder permit to build or improve a one-family or two-family residence or farm outbuilding which is for my own use or occupancy and which remains under the same ownership and occupancy for a period of at least two calendar years from the date the certificate of occupancy is issued. During such two-year period, no additional permits, other than accessory, will be issued to the owner/builder. Our ordinance, which is modeled after state statute, states that in all actions brought under Section 1.1, which is for contracting without a license, proof of the sale or lease or offering for sale or lease of a structure by the owner/builder within 12 months after issuance of certificate of occupancy is prima facie evidence that the construction was undertaken for purposes of sale or lease. Our ordinance states, as I said, 12 months, one year, where this 51 ,-""" April 21, 2004 form has two years. I believe this form should be changed to agree with our ordinance. And our ordinance also says on the next page, same section, an owner/builder will be issued a maximum of one owner/builder permit for the construction of a one-family or two-family home in any three-year period. So I believe instead of messing with our ordinance, this form should be changed to read 12 months for the sale or lease and three-year period before another permit can be issued. Do you agree, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: I would agree with that. MR. BAR TOE: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you just need our blessing? MR. BAR TOE: I just wanted to bring it up and yes, get the blessing of changing this form instead of the ordinance. MR. BARIL: Would it be wise to also maybe add that I understand that I will comply with all building codes and ordinances, and it will be my responsibility to ensure that all subcontractors have MR. BAR TOE: I believe that's in -- that is on the permit itself when it is issued. MR. BARIL: It's on the permit? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Uh-huh. Because I've done owner/builders. And you can sign off for all of the trades as an owner/builder. But it says on there that you must have a licensed trade in those major categories. MR. BARTO E: If you do not do the work yourself. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, if you don't do the work yourself. And they really did check it at inspections when I did it. I don't advise anyone to be an owner/builder. Being in the business it works, but I wouldn't want to do it otherwise. MR. BLUM: It takes a very long time. 52 ",'-' April 21, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. It's not what you know, it's who you know in the trades. So do I need a motion to change this to one year? MR. NEALE: One year and three years. Yeah, I would suggest. One year in the first instance, three years in the second. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. MR. BARIL: Second, Baril. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything else? Good meeting. Thank you guys for bringing up all the stuff you did. And I especially appreciate the comments about the insurance from you, Mr. Baril, and I especially appreciate your last comment that it's not our responsibility to fill the gap for people that don't plan ahead and run their business. MS. KELLER: Our time is valuable, too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That changed everyone on this board, just about. MR. BARTOE: And I did make phone contact with a gentleman from Experior, Mr. Etchel (phonetic). CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. BARTOE: And it appears it's going to be tough to get somebody here before the board. He said possibly in May someone will be in our area a couple of days before our meeting and maybe they could get here. He would let me know more later. I'm looking at the possibility we might have to write a letter to Experior with someone answering all our questions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me bring the board members up from last week, because a couple of you weren't here. We're having a real problem with Experior in, number one, their testing. Some of the tests, especially painting, are absolutely ludicrous. They are not offering it in Spanish anymore, and offering no prompting in other -- 53 ,-.' April 21, 2004 in Spanish language. We wanted to hear from Experior. And for your knowledge, according to our legal advice over here, we on this board have the ability to change testing agencies if the one we're using doesn't fill the bill. And quite honestly right now, whether Experior is filling the bill is at question. And there are others, correct? MR. BAR TOE: Yes, there are. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why don't you invite the others to come to our May meeting? MR. BLUM: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have some direct questions, so when these people come up here, we know exactly what's available to them. And in South Florida, not to offer it in a Spanish prompt is absurd. So let's invite the competition and let Experior know the competition's coming. Do you all agree? MR. JOSLIN: I agree. MR. BLUM: I agree. I wouldn't even let them know. They've been put on notice. I wouldn't tell them a thing. I'd tell them nothing. They've already acted very independent. I don't think we owe them any further communication. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me make one thing real quick. Mr. Zachary? MR. ZACHARY: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We are correct that if this board wants to change the testing agency, we can? MR. ZACHARY: Do we have a contract with them now? I'm not sure of the relationship. But I certainly think that you can change the testing agency, if it still fulfills the need that the board is -- the test is comparable. If it feels the need that the board is -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And anyone who's licensed in the state is recognized in all counties? MR. NEALE: Well, the way our ordinance actually reads is the 54 April 21, 2004 approved examiners for the purpose of administering proctored exams as required by this article is Experior and any other testing agency with comparable testing standards recognized and approved throughout the State of Florida and also approved by the Collier County Contractors Licensing Board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wow. MR. BESWICK: There you go. MR. NEALE: So if the state -- if they're recognized throughout the state and the state board approves them, they're good, no matter who they are. It could be, you know, Joe's Testing, but if they're approved -- MS. KELLER: So there probably is no contract with Experior in Collier County. It's just an informal relationship. MR. NEALE: They're just the agency-- MR. BLUM: That happened to be there at the right time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we have heard so many complaints -- MR. NEALE: About Experior. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- about Experior, that I think this board should get involved in this. MR. JOSLIN: When someone goes and files an application with Maggie and wants to go take the test, is there something that they just automatically assume that Experior is going to give the test? Is that the case? MS. KELLER: Yes. MR. BAR TOE: Yes, it's all we use. MR. JOSLIN: That's all we use? MR. BAR TOE: Unless someone comes in with test scores from another company. That person has to show that that test is equivalent to the same test by Experior. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. MR. BAR TOE: I was saying about the only time we ever hear of 55 April 21, 2004 a different company, and I saw it this morning on paving, a gentleman has taken three different tests with some company I never heard of. And they wanted to know if this would be good enough for them to get a license. Well, number one, you need the business and law exam also, and number two, we told the person, it's up to you to prove to us that this test from this company is equivalent to Experior's test. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If they're approved by the State of Florida, that's all we've got to have, right? MR. NEALE: That's basically what it says. If it's recognized and approved statewide, you got it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So we could take other tests besides Experior. Okay. Can you get them here? MR. BAR TOE: I'll try. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Because we need to end these complaints. We're hearing too many of them. MR. NEALE: Yeah, I think the significant complaint, you know, from sitting here, is the one where they only offer it in one language. Which has proven to be a significant hindrance. MS. KELLER: Which they changed and didn't tell anybody, apparently. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, that was a change. MR. BLUM: I know this is unpopular, and I'm going to stand alone on this, but I've got to do it anyway. There is a mandate that it has to be in more than one language and that other language is Spanish? Is that a state mandated thing? Is that something we do out of courtesy? What's that all about? Because quite frankly, I disagree with it totally, personally. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I know, one language, and -- but -- MR. BLUM: I mean, when we go to Cuba, they're not going to make it easy on us, you know, to do business. This just troubles me, the whole concept. If they had to take it in English they'd learn more, 56 April 21, 2004 they'd do better, and we wouldn't have the problems we're having standing here in front of us, that they didn't understand how to take it, what happened, ramifications. All those things would go away if they either had a person in English with them and having to do it that way. It would eliminate so many problems. MS. KELLER: But I don't think you understand the Latin mentality . MR. BLUM: Yeah, I do a lot. MS. KELLER: The Latin mentality is to get around things. And I think that that's -- you know, if they are trying to get into the system and do things right here, I think you have -- you need to do what you can to try and help people. And if there are other languages, I'm totally -- MR. BLUM: I categorically disagree -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me speak for the -- MR. BLUM: They could learn our system. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- construction industry. I don't have Caucasian people knocking down my doors to find work -- MR. JOSLIN: Exactly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- in construction. MR. JOSLIN: I totally agree with you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't see them in the pool business, roofing business, electrical, heat and air, or anything else. MR. BLUM: You're right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the new census that was done in 2000 said by the next census, the most predominant -- the majority of people in the United States by the next census will be speaking Spanish. So it's accepted everywhere. It's about time we get with it. MR. BLUM: In response to that, I agree with all those things. I employ not a lot of people, altogether about 40; out of that 38 are latino, one way or another. And they go to school that I help them do. I have a teacher that comes in three nights a week and they teach 57 April 21, 2004 them, especially within the trades that they're in, the common terms. And as they do better and as they complete courses, I reward them with salary. And very few of them don't avail themselves of that. And when you put something in place to allow a person to do the right thing, inevitably they will do it. But if you make it really, really easy, inevitably they'll take the easy way. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you're talking about a technical exam, which I read and understand Spanish. I could not take a technical exam in Spanish to where one change of a word affects the answer to the question. I strongly think it should be in Spanish. MS. KELLER: It would affect -- I'm fluent in Spanish and it would be hard for me to take test. MR. BLUM: I know it's unpopular. I just had to -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's unpopular, but I disagree with you. MR. BARIL: So many of those answers to those questions are worded so that it's a trick question. You have to understand what they're asking. MR. BESWICK: It's also been my experience hiring, you know, for the homeowners association, that it's tough to find any employees, let alone English speaking employees. I have four over there right now who don't speak English. Three of them are Spanish, one speaks Creole. It's just tough to find employees. There's not that big an employee base around here. It's not like Fort Lauderdale. (Off- the-microphone discussions.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything else? No side discussions, she's picking all that up. Folks, you got to stop the side discussions. Wait till we say adjourned. Because it's all picked up, and she's getting it and it will drive her crazy. Anything else? Come on, give me -- MR. BARIL: Move to adjourn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Second. Approved. 58 ._- April 21, 2004 Great meeting, guys. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:39 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, Chairman 59