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CLB Minutes 03/17/2004 RMarch 17, 2004 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida March 17, 2004 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: LES DICKSON David L. Beswick Syd Blum Eric Guite' Richard Joslin Ann Keller William Lewis Kenneth Lloyd ALSO PRESENT: Thomas Bartoe, Licensing Compliance Officer Robert Zachary, County Attorney Patrick Neale, Counsel to the Board Jim Hoopingamer, Licensing Compliance Officer Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: March 17, 2004 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: February 18, 2004 V. DISCUSSION: VI. NEW BUSINESS: Tobias I. Simmons - Request to qualify a second company James D. Wright - Request to qualify a second company. Jimmy Contreras - Request to qualify a second company. John Stan- Request to qualify a second company. Douglas L. Morris - Request to qualify a second company. Robert H. Weeks, Ill - Review of credit report. Douglas P. Tews - Review of credit report. Gabriel Gonzalez - Request to waive exams for a painting and a cabinet install, contr, license. VII. OLD BUSINESS: VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: Case # 2004-02 - Collier County Contractor Licensing vs Alan J. Vincent d/b/a Rollsecure Shutters, Inc IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, April 21,2004 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning. I'd like to call to order the March 17th meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board. Anyone appearing before this board that would like to appeal a decision of the board, you will need a written verbatim record of the proceedings that take place here. And that can be available to you by seeing the court reporter. I'd like to start off with a roll call, starting on my right. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Lewis. MR. BESWICK: Mr. Beswick. MR. BLUM: Mr. Blum. MS. KELLER: Ann Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. LLOYD: Ken Lloyd. MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any additions or deletions to the agenda, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, board members. For the record, my name is Tom Bartoe. I'm Collier County licensing compliance officer. And at this time, staff has no additions or deletions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need an approval -- or motion to approve the agenda. MR. JOSLIN: MR. LLOYD: So moved, Joslin. Second, Lloyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Approval of the minutes of the last meeting, February 18th, 2004. Any -- MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion that we approve the minutes from last meeting. Page 2 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. LLOYD: Lloyd, second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Nothing in discussion. Did all of you -- did you notice on there, did you notice to bring the two packets from the February meeting? MR. LLOYD: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, do you have -- okay. Because I've got copies here you can look at, if you didn't. Moving right in, new business, let's go. Tobias Simmons, are you present? Again he's not here. We'll try him one more time at the end of this. James Wright, are you present? Would you come forward, sir. I need for you to go to this podium, state your name, and I will have the court reporter swear you in. MR. WRIGHT: James Wright. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, Mr. Wright. MR. WRIGHT: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, just give us a synopsis and why you're do -- what you're doing. MR. WRIGHT: I'm an electrical contractor. I recently got my license back in January, and I do mostly service work. My son's father-in-law has been in business for several years as AC Systems, and is trying to branch out into the electrical business also. We've been talking and would like to form a joint venture where he's got the new construction and the capital behind him to go forth in the new construction, and would like to qualify his company for electrical contractor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And you presently qualify Wright Electrical Services? Page 3 March 17, 2004 MR. MR. business? MR. MR. MR. 16 years. MR. MR. MR. business? MR. business. MR. WRIGHT: Wright Electrical Services, yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And now you're wanting to qualify AC Systems, Incorporated? MR. WRIGHT: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give us a minute here to run through your packet. If anyone on the board has questions, feel free. Any complaints or problems with the county, Mr. Bartoe? BARTOE: No, sir. JOSLIN: How long has Wright Electrical Systems been in WRIGHT: Just started this year, sir. JOSLIN: Just this year? WRIGHT: Yes, I've been an electrician in town for about I just started my own business here this year. LLOYD: Mr. Melancon will be your partner? WRIGHT: Yes, sir. LLOYD: And has he previously been in the electrical WRIGHT: And I do realize that I would be responsible as licensing and making sure that everything was done right. MR. LLOYD: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But does conditioning license? MR. WRIGHT: Yes, he does, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Bartoe. I thought air conditioning contractors could also do electrical pertaining to that unit; is that not correct? MR. LLOYD: You're talking electrical new construction, electrical new construction? Not the electrical business. He's been in the AC far as the Mr. Melancon have an air I'm a little confused, Mr. the all MR. WRIGHT: Yes. Page 4 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, now I see what you're doing. So you could do it under one umbrella? MR. WRIGHT: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've never seen so many credit reports. MR. JOSLIN: And all good. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: reports in here. Anybody else have any questions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How Paul Jackson? You must have 30 pages of credit long were you with Jackson, MR. WRIGHT: I was with Paul Jackson a little over five years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. But you're not with him now? MR. WRIGHT: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: To me everything looks in order, folks. I mean, we've got -- credit reports are good, he's got his insurance in line, including workers' compensation. If you don't see any issues, let's move for a motion. MR. LLOYD: I make a motion that we honor the request for -- to qualify a second company. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? MR. BLUM: One quick question. Are you going to do the electrical new construction installations, or is Mr. Melancon going to have a crew that does -- in other words, are you going to do new house construction, electric and AC, or you want the electric part of the AC? MR. WRIGHT: No, electric and AC. We'll have a crew that I'll be responsible for with the -- MR. BLUM: The AC company will do air conditioning, new construction and electric installation under one name, under one banner? Page 5 March 17, 2004 MR. WRIGHT: Yes, sir. MR. BLUM: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I've got a motion and a second. All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anyone not in favor? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've got unanimous approval. For you and everyone that's here today, all of your files and records are here in this room. Don't go to the contractor licensing today. But you can go there tomorrow. She'll have the order and Maggie can -- and the girls can take care of it. MR. WRIGHT: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well. MR. WRIGHT: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe, the next one on the agenda is James Contreras. I don't have anything in the file. Am I the only one? MR. LLOYD: I don't either. I did find two copies of Morris. MR. BARTOE: Then, Mr. Chairman, staff would like to delete an item from today's agenda. Mr. Contreras. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is Mr. Contreras here? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: was quick. Next one, John Stan, are you present? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. BARTOE: Sir? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. BARTOE: I can understand why. company came back to us yesterday. Oh, okay, that's easy enough. That His certified mail to his No John Stan. Page 6 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Hang on to it. You'll probably see him next month. Douglas Morris, are you present? MR. MORRIS: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you come forward sir. Same procedure. MR. MORRIS: My name's Douglas Morris. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need to have you sworn in. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Morris, if you'd tell us what you're doing. MR. MORRIS: I'm a tile and marble contractor here in Collier County, and I'm wanting to qualify the Thunderbird Group, LLC, Millennium Marble, for their installation of cultured marble. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you're presently qualifying First Choice Tile and Marble? MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you the owner of that? MR. MORRIS: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Thunderbird Group, what are you going to be, a partner? MR. MORRIS: Just wishing to have them be able to use my license for installation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: is that correct? MR. MORRIS: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: have any ownership? MR. MORRIS: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: active? Okay. You're going to be on a salary; Have we got -- so you're not going to Is First Choice Tile and Marble MR. MORRIS: Yes. Page 7 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And you've been fully advised that if something goes wrong and you get in trouble, it could affect your -- MR. MORRIS: Yes, uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. He's got the resolution and affidavit. MR. LLOYD: I'm missing a credit report. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pardon me? MR. LLOYD: I'm just looking for a credit report. I have it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How long has First Choice Tile and Marble been in business? MR. MORRIS: Since 1991. That's when I incorporated. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Thunderbird Group is brand new? MR. MORRIS: They are a new group, but the Millennium Marble name has been around for a while. These two guys have just bought that, that company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Rob Royston is your attorney? MR. MORRIS: No, that must be theirs. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. MORRIS: I think this is just going to be a temporary thing until one of the boys can get licensed, get a tile and marble license. Just trying to help them out. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: you're not receiving any -- MR. MORRIS: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: this? And you're just receiving salary, You're not receiving any payment for MR. MORRIS: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: yes, that would have been a big flag. license. But you understand if you had said That's called selling your Page 8 March 17, 2004 MR. MORRIS: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: short on credit reports. Why Experian give us one page? Any objections with staff?. MR. BARTOE: No objections. Contrary to the last application, we're does Equifax give us 15 pages and MR. JOSLIN: Unless the board has any other pertinent questions, I'll make a motion that we -- I'll grant this second entity. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have a second? MR. LEWIS: Second, Lewis. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we'll call for the vote. All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We wish you well. MR. MORRIS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You do have approval. Next one up is Robert Weeks. Are you present? If you'd come forward, sir, and state your name. MR. WEEKS: Robert Weeks. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need to have you sworn in. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, tell us what you're doing, Mr. Weeks. MR. WEEKS: I want to install cabinets and interior trim. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you're presently qualifying who? MR. WEEKS: Trying to get my occupational license. MR. LLOYD: Right. This is a review. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, it's a review of the credit report. I Page 9 March 17, 2004 gotcha. Trying to get approved for Third Generation Construction, Inc., right? MR. WEEKS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Tell us what we're going to see in your credit report and what happened. MR. WEEKS: It's bad. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What happened? MR. WEEKS: Just fell down on my luck about three years ago, and we ended up moving here about two and a half years ago, back from South Carolina. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you talk up a little bit. MR. WEEKS: I said in South Carolina I kind of fell down on my luck as far as, you know, credit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, be a little more specific. Falling down on your luck doesn't carry any weight here. MR. WEEKS: Well, I just got jobless and couldn't pay nothing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What, you were out of work? MR. WEEKS: Yes, sir. MR. GUITE': You filed for bankruptcy? MR. WEEKS: I'm doing that now here in town. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, you want to give us guidance? MR. NEALE: Well, the credit report is to be reviewed based on the guidelines set out in the Florida Administrative Code. And those guidelines provide that -- this is under 61G4-15.006. The financial responsibility grounds on which the board shall refuse to qualify an applicant may -- shall include failure to submit any of the required items. He has submitted those. The existence within the past five years preceding the application of an unsatisfied court judgment rendered against the applicant based upon the failure of the applicant to pay its just obligations to parties with whom the applicant conducted business as a contractor. An unfavorable credit report or Page 10 March 17, 2004 history, as indicated by any of the documents submitted. A determination by the board that the applicant lacks the financial stability necessary to assure compliance with the standards set forth in Section 1, which I'll go back to, of this rule. As guidelines for this -- for the determination of financial stability, the board shall consider the applicant's responses to the questions set forth in the application in the financial -- applicant's financial statement. For purposes of this rule, the phrase "financial responsibility" is defined as the ability to safeguard that the public will not sustain economic loss resulting from the contractor's inability to pay his lawful contractual obligations. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything -- the statement he just made about the bankruptcy filing, that, is that anything that we can consider? MR. NEALE: Pursuant to an opinion of the Attorney General of the State of Florida, the Construction Industry Licensing Board may not consider past or present bankruptcy of applicant for certification as contractor in determining whether to qualify applicant for certification. It's prohibited by the U.S. Bankruptcy Code in the supremacy clause of the constitution. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, you hit on a lot of items. One was if we have any fear of him being able to pay his bills and not harm the public that he may work for. Mr. Weeks, it's the worst credit report I've seen in here in years. How do you think you're going to operate a company? MR. WEEKS: Most of it's personal, you know. And what I do is just pure labor. It's nothing -- no -- I don't buy nothing, you know, to do the jobs or -- I mean, it's just all labor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Uh-huh. Are you working for someone now? MR. WEEKS: I'm working for Naples Shutters right now. For Page 11 March 17, 2004 Charlie. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you're wanting to do cabinets? MR. WEEKS: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, if we give you the license, we can't put on there for labor only. MR. WEEKS: Right, right. Well, it's just a cabinet installing license. It's like a specialty license, or whatever. MR. LLOYD: At this time, why do we -- why should we know or believe that you are financially stable? MR. WEEKS: I've been running a business here for a year here with an occupational license under Plantation Shutters and have been doing real well. That's why I'm trying to get my life back in order. And cabinet installation is something I've done all my life, so -- it pays a little better money and I'd like to get -- you know, start doing that. Just had some bad luck. Work fell off. And I framed houses for 12 years in South Carolina. Just kind of fell off pricewise, and I hung in there for about two years too long and lost it. MR. LLOYD: You see, my concern would be that there would be a partially finished project and -- MR. WEEKS: No, sir, it's-- MR. LLOYD: -- no finances available to get the customer -- MR. WEEKS: -- all labor, like I said. I'm not-- MR. LLOYD: -- to get the customer what they need. MR. WEEKS: It's all labor. We'll only be doing installation. I don't have to buy nothing, you know, except for screws and supply my tools. Another company supplies the cabinets and I just go in and put them in. MR. LLOYD: But Mr. Dickson stated we don't approve it on just that. It's the whole thing. It's the assumption that you, once you get your license, you would and could purchase materials. And in for some reason that doesn't happen and the customer's sitting with a half finished cabinet project, I'd be concerned. Page 12 March 17, 2004 MR. WEEKS: I understand. MR. LLOYD: That's only one opinion. MR. WEEKS: I mean, whenever I had my business for 12 years there, it was the same situation where I didn't really -- I just furnished the labor. I had 15 guys working for me, you know, and they all got paid. It was just mostly all personal stuff that, you know, that I -- I mean, as far as business, I didn't neglect it at all. Just work fell off and MR. LLOYD: Do you have vehicles that you use in your business? car. MR. WEEKS: MR. LLOYD: MR. WEEKS: Yes, sir. Two of them? Two Chryslers? No, I got a Chevy van now. And then my wife's CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me just give you a brief overview. I don't know if you've seen this credit report. You presently have an installment balance of $147,000. In past due balances, you have $48,000. The following companies have charged off amounts owed to you: Bank of America charged off over 41,000; Alltel charged off; Equity One charged off twice; cavalry Portfolio is in a collection; Sherman Acquisition's in a collection; as well as Collection 2, Credit Adjustment, Lanier Collection. And then we go all the way down through here, there are a couple of accounts that are current, Green Tree Servicing and Citibank. But -- and then I look over here in inquiries also, and inquiries have been pretty rampant up until -- well, you've just had one this year. So apparently there's a lot of people on your tail, and you probably don't want to answer your phone in the evenings. MR. WEEKS: I answer it. I talk to them. I mean, you know, I'd be just willing to give them the money as -- you know, I just got four kids and got to think of them. The way it happened in South Carolina, you know, I just -- I didn't see it coming. Page 13 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. WEEKS: And that one on the Bank of America, that was like a motor home that I had had and kept for like four years and didn't even use it at all. And I just, finally when I fell down, that -- one of the first things that went was the motor home. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. What's the desire of the board? MR. JOSLIN: I don't know about the rest of you all, but I'm not prone to approve this application. MR. BLUM: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. MR. JOSLIN: I said I'm not prone to approve this application. I'm not ready for that yet. There's just too many derogatory things that are still in process now. I'm not sure that we can dictate a decision that should be done, but I would think that possibly if he did or does go into a bankruptcy state, that possibly then he would come back before the board, that we could take another look at it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, as Mr. Neale was reading through those items, we hit on every single one of them. MR. JOSLIN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, I mean, we need to move. MR. BESWICK: I make a motion we disapprove. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need a second. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any discussion? MS. KELLER: I'd just like to say that, I mean, I was impressed with the letters and the quality of the work that the people you've worked for said you do. So it would be nice to get some guidance as to how you can move forward to improve your credit and show us that you're financially responsible. MR. WEEKS: Yes, ma'am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, and I think what you need to do is do whatever you're going to do financially, but get a year's worth of repairing your credit. Our problem is, and we're charged by the Page 14 March 17, 2004 County Commission under the code for the County Commission, and we just can't issue a license with this kind of credit report. It isn't going to fly. And if we did, I can imagine the people that would be in here wondering what we had done. But let's see where the vote goes. Calling for the vote. We do have a motion and a second to disapprove. All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We can't do it for you this time, but let's work on the credit, maybe we can do it next time. MR. WEEKS: What, say a year, do you say, or what? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You give a year of clean credit, I think the board would look, you know, more favorably on it. MR. BLUM: Show some of this stuff cleaned up that's out there. A lot of it's real small, it would be easy to get rid of some of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, there's some items on here that are not that big a deal. MR. WEEKS: And a lot of the items got issues, you know, I mean. But, you know, I can't sit and explain all the issues on that. That's what I've got a lawyer for. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but we can't turn a contractor loose on the public that's got issues like what you have. MR. WEEKS: Okay. Thank you for your time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Thank you. Douglas Tews, are you present? MR. TEWS: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Douglas, if you'd come up here, I need to have you state your name, please, and be sworn in. MR. TEWS: My name is Douglas Tews. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You are a painting contractor, Page 15 March 17, 2004 correct? MR. TEWS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wanting to renew your certificate of competency? MR. TEWS: Yes, here in Collier County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Uh-huh. And you did have one last year, right? MR. TEWS: I held a -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: '93. MR. TEWS: I've held a Lee County license, I believe, since 1991 and a Cape Coral license for the last, I think, four years. Previous to that I had a Collier County license back in '92; '92, maybe '93. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you want to renew yours, and your credit -- your credit report got in the way, right? MR. TEWS: Yes, sir, it sure has. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell us what's happened as we're looking at the credit report. MR. TEWS: I don't like to try to make excuses for financial problems, but these are personal problems. It's personal credit. It is involving a 1999 -- a 1999 divorce, whereas 22 years of marriage was dissolved. 50 percent of everything I think we both worked for has been divided and spattered across whatever. And I got to a point with it after 2000, I had a little built of slow time there. And trying to give my son some help going to college the first couple of years, trying to pay for two households, and just got overwhelming. I finally about a year ago decided that the best course of action is to file a Chapter 13 bankruptcy, which I have. And I've been staying up with my payments almost to a year now, and trying to make corrections of the credit, which doesn't help me in business. But my business has run along on a steady pace pretty much for 12 years. I've got a fairly decent reputation in Lee County and Cape Coral. Page 16 March 17, 2004 I have had the opportunity to come into Collier again. It seems like we're moving in both directions, Collier going up and Lee coming south. And a couple of people I work for, one builder in particular, is based in Bonita, and he's got work in your area and he's got work up where I live. So I'm crossing over and I need to get legitimate over here and keep the licenses going and keep on with making payments to people through the bankruptcy court. My trustee is Terry E. Smith. I think I submitted a document showing that I've kept up with the required amount of money that's got to be paid on a monthly basis. Keep up with my alimony and keep up my home. My home was very important to me. And that was probably the biggest decision to go into the bankruptcy, I didn't want to lose my home. I got three months behind on my house payments, and trying to catch up being a painter is a little bit tough having all those payments going out of your pocket. I've kept up with my supplier. And I've only had one, maybe two suppliers throughout the years. I've got a good rapport with them. Never had a problem with credit with them. And I've always kept my business on an up and up. Kept people working most of the time. Keep myself busy. And that's important to me. And the most important thing is to get back on line again. And hopefully, you fellows will see that I'm a credible person and I'm here to do a good job and not have any problems with this. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: When you buy material under Douglas Tews Painting Contractor, Incorporated -- MR. TEWS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- you don't buy under a corporate name, do you? MR. TEWS: I don't know, that's a good question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because they ran a credit report on your corporate name, and it came up with exactly zero. No records found. Page 17 March 17, 2004 MR. TEWS: No, I saw that. There was one or two items that showed up on the business and I wasn't quite clear when I did that. I -- a couple of years ago I had to go in front of the Collier -- I'm sorry, the Cape Coral Commission, just like I am with you fellows, and I had to explain that one out, too. And I called the supplier who I had been working with for 12 years and asked them to basically submit something to somebody, to let them know I'm working under Douglas Tews Contracting, Inc. Apparently it didn't show up that way. I only work through one or two suppliers, and my business has never taken a hit with collection. My personal life has, there's no doubt. But I am making a sincere effort to correct this. You know, the courts have allowed me to do this, and I'm doing it. And I can only expand on my business by keeping myself busy and keeping up with what I've got, obligations, which is first of all and foremost my home. Second of all is my business. And my alimony will be completed by November of this year. That's five years. I'm doing the best I can. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I see you're making payments on the tax liens, correct? MR. TEWS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I see you're also making payments -- you made some pretty heavy payments in January of this year -- MR. TEWS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- to South Trust Bank. I assume that's your home? MR. TEWS: Yes, that was, that was my mortgage. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson, if you look at the report from Terry Smith, the trustee, it's really a two-page report that's been submitted. It may be more extensive than that, but there's just two pages in front of the board. Page 18 March 17, 2004 And the first page, which is titled case status report -- actually the pages are out of order, at least in mine -- that's the page, if you review the top of it, it shows the payments that Mr. Tews is making, where it says last six payments. The report that shows the payments to South Trust, et cetera, that is the report of disbursements by the trustee, actually. There's payments made in by Mr. Tews, then the trustee disburses on his behalf, correct? MR. TEWS: That's correct. MR. NEALE: It's really security for the creditors to ensure it, because Chapter 13 is basically a workout. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: While you're there, Mr. Neale, where is their credit number on these credit reports? MR. NEALE: The credit score? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Uh-huh. I've never seen them. MR. NEALE: You know, again, you know, the problem with the very different credit reporting agencies, and there are basically three of them, some of them give scores, some of them don't. CHAIRMAN the third one? MR. NEALE: CHAIRMAN DICKSON: TRW. DICKSON: Well, Equifax, Experian and what's scores. TRW, they all three give credit They're usually pretty close. MR. NEALE: And it depends on the kind of report that they put out. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. NEALE: Business typically gets a credit score. Personal doesn't necessarily. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I've seen personal. MR. NEALE: And as I say, it doesn't necessarily. Sometimes it does. And Falcon Credit obviously doesn't. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because we saw 490 in here one time, and the credit people say that's impossible, it can't go that low. Page 19 March 17, 2004 MR. NEALE: Yeah, it's -- I guess Falcon doesn't give a calculated credit score. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. TEWS: I used Falcon a couple of times for Lee County, and also for Cape Coral, and I used them where they were located, and I needed to get this thing to you folks as quick as possible so I could get to this meeting on this date. Like I say, I'd like to get my license in the county so I can work three areas that I'm hoping to saturate, which is my business. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, the thing I'm impressed with on you is I don't see how you have enough money left over to feed yourself. MR. TEWS: Well, I appreciate that. I get up pretty much every morning, go to work like everybody else. And I've got a good business. I have a good reputation and people call me. I'm always working. I've got four people, very good people working for me. It's taken me a lot of years to find some good competent people. I pay them well, and they have helped my reputation and helped me with people. They do a good job. I've got to compliment them, these people that work for me. In the same context, they like working for me. Lee County, I keep it going, I've got them -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're making some heavy monthly payments. MR. TEWS: Yes, I do. My divorce has been my biggest hit. I have -- I have $2,000 a month alimony payments. Of course I've got a mortgage payment, utility bills, and I'm making restitution for these tax -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can't stop working. MR. TEWS: Yeah, that's pretty much right. I mean, who wants to, really? I don't feel like sitting down. It doesn't do a person any good just mentally. And I like to work. I do. I like my job. I've been in the contracting business for 30 years, all parts of the country. I Page 20 March 17, 2004 started out in Wisconsin, lived in Colorado, California, been down here for 18 years. A couple of years after I got down to Florida, I got my license. Fell into painting. I don't know how, but I like it. I'm proud of what I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How does the board feel? MR. BLUM: I'd like to give this gentleman a chance at it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree. Because the gentleman that we just turned down, this is basically what we wanted him to do. MS. KELLER: I was thinking he should have stayed. MR. BLUM: I wish the other guy could have seen. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I wish he would have seen, because you've done what we want him to go do, get things in order and start making payments -- MR. TEWS: That's -- yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- and show some responsibility, which you've done. I've had bad-- a couple of bad financial times. Everybody goes through them. But you're working through yours. MR. TEWS: Well, I'm hoping someone will give me the opportunity, like you folks, to work another area. This is a -- you know, it's a growing area. And like I said, we've got borders, Collier and Lee, and we've got to go into Collier and we got to go back into Lee. And it will restrict me from going into this area. And I'm just trying to keep things up above a board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, yeah, you're not working without a license. MR. TEWS: That's right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which is good. Okay, what's the pleasure of the board? MR. BESWICK: Motion to approve. MR. BLUM: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a motion and a second. Did you get both of those? Page 21 March 17, 2004 THE COURT REPORTER: CHAIRMAN DICKSON: (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. Any discussion? All those in favor? MR. TEWS: up to that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. TEWS: All right, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, we believe in you. I appreciate that very much. I'm hoping we can live Keep it up. Thank you again. Hope you will. MR. TEWS: The paperwork for the license? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tomorrow. MR. TEWS: Tomorrow I can go into the -- where Maggie is at, her office? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where Maggie's at, yes. MR. TEWS: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gabriel Gonzalez, are you present? MR. GONZALEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come forward. Are there going to be two of you? THE TRANSLATOR: Translator. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Translator, okay. THE TRANSLATOR: How are you, good morning. MR. GONZALEZ: My name is Gabriel Gonzalez. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I need to have you sworn in. (Speakers were duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Gonzalez, comprendo Ingles? MR. GONZALEZ: A little bit, sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No habla? Page 22 March 17, 2004 MR. GONZALEZ: I speak a little bit, not too much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And you can tell us, if you want, what are you wanting to do? THE TRANSLATOR: Painting and carpentry, mostly like finish carpentry. Just like installing cabinets and-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: With-- and waive the test. Let's see the test scores. MR. LLOYD: Was he involved in this profession in Venezuela? THE TRANSLATOR: Yes. MR. LLOYD: For how many years? THE TRANSLATOR: Mostly his whole life. Probably over 20 years. We had a license -- we have a license now with Broward County for carpentry and painting for over two years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How did you get that? THE TRANSLATOR: We waived it. We had a waive. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Broward County waived it? THE TRANSLATOR: Uh-huh. With experience. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you've had your license how long? THE TRANSLATOR: For-- since 2002. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you didn't take any of the tests until 2003. THE TRANSLATOR: That's for this county. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. BLUM: Are you not doing business in Broward anymore? THE TRANSLATOR: No, yeah, we are. They are doing business in Broward. They just want to expand. MR. BLUM: How many employees? How big is this business? THE TRANSLATOR: It's just my dad and my brother. MR. BLUM: Where's the place of business going to be, there or here? THE TRANSLATOR: I'm sorry? Page 23 March 17, 2004 MR. BLUM: Where will the place of business be, the primary place of business? THE TRANSLATOR: If they get a license here, they start working here, they have to find more people to work with, I guess, here. And there is a couple of new built that they're looking for painters and for companies, and that's one of the requires is to have a license for this county, and we don't have them. MR. BLUM: I understand. You can't really devote all your time and energies to two full-time construction or painting contracting businesses, especially the opposite ends of the state. And I understand there's a lot of opportunities here, and that's great, and competition's a wonderful thing. But if he gets the license here, is he going to live here, is there going to be a business here or is he just going to come over once in awhile and do some jobs? I'm just curious. THE TRANSLATOR: No, he'll have a crew here that will work here. And mostly he wants to move up here, too, because it's getting crowded in Broward. MR. BLUM: Yeah, we know. THE TRANSLATOR: He's thinking about selling the house over there because it's getting too crowded. Too many -- you know, too many fights. MR. BLUM: Yeah. MR. LLOYD: So the corporate office would be in Davie, Florida? THE TRANSLATOR: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I'm a little -- tell me the difference between Valencia Painting and R&G Remodeling -- or DG remodeling? THE TRANSLATOR: Well, DG Remodeling was before -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's what it was before and -- THE TRANSLATOR: Yeah. Page 24 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: THE TRANSLATOR: Painting, yes. MR. NEALE: September 4, 2002. -- you changed it to Valencia? Yes, the corporation to Valencia There's a change of name certificate in here dated CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So it really comes down to there's no other issue except the test, so let's concentrate on that. MR. BARTOE: Also, they mentioned having a crew here? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I caught that. MR. BARTOE: I see no workers' compensation insurance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You don't have workers' compensation, do you? THE TRANSLATOR: Not for here. For Broward, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no, no, no, that doesn't work that way. THE TRANSLATOR: Yeah, he has it. MR. NEALE: There's an exemption certificate. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're going to have to prove that to us. You are a corporation? THE TRANSLATOR: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you first said it was the two of you? THE TRANSLATOR: Well, my brother and my dad owns it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Then you tell me that you have crews, or you have a crew. THE TRANSLATOR: Well, they have people that work, they hire when they have, you know, big jobs, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So your exemption certificate is illegal because you have employees. THE TRANSLATOR: Well, the people that they hire, they have their own license. Like they hire another company of painters. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you're subcontracting. It goes on Page 25 March 17, 2004 all the time. MR. BLUM: Oh, boy. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And that's accept -- well, now I'm confused because they don't have workers' comp., but they're subbing. MR. BLUM: And how do we know the people they're subbing to, that they're the final authority as far as responsibility of subbing to people that do have the insurance? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I see subbing all the time, Mr. Bartoe, with companies that have workers' comp. But now I have an exempt company -- gentlemen? Gentlemen? But now I have an exempt company subbing. I don't think that's legal. MR. BARTOE: I don't know. Insurance-wise, as long as they're not stepping foot on a job site to do work, as long as the company going to work is properly insured, I would think it would be okay. MR. LEWIS: They basically -- THE TRANSLATOR: Can I say something, sir? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, just a minute. MR. LEWIS: They basically would become management company for the painting contractor. do. said. a construction MR. NEALE: That's what it is. That's really all that-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. NEALE: They're essentially -- MR. GUITE': Just for him personally? MR. BLUM: But that's not what we're hearing that he wants to CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I know, I know it's not. MS. KFJLLER: Do they-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, what were you saying? MR. NEALE: I'm just following along with what Mr. Lewis CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, well, let's go back to the test scores. Page 26 March 17, 2004 I've got a 45 on painting, I got a 36 on painting, I've got a 50 on business and law and I've got a 64 on business and law. And you haven't taken the test for a year. First of all, your painting scores are atrocious. I know the painting test has a lot of flaws to it, right, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But 36 and 45 in your trade, I find deplorable. Plus the fact you quit taking the test. You quit trying. THE TRANSLATOR: In the second test, it was supposed to be an open book test, and they didn't do an open book test. It was just a like two-hour test with nothing, basically. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, there was -- that was May of last year. You haven't attempted to take the test since May. THE TRANSLATOR: They take -- he's trying to do the -- trying to learn more about like the test and the books. So he can -- if next time it's a non-open book test, he can just go at it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll tell you what my opinion's going to be. Go take the test a few more times and come back and see us. But when I see 10 months of not even taking the test and coming in here with atrocious scores like that, and you think we're going to waive it, then we might as well do away with all licensing contractor laws. MR. NEALE: Just a question, really, for the board's clarification. Is the test available translated? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, in Spanish. MR. BARTOE: I believe so. MR. LLOYD: Yes. We've had that in the past. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Language is not an issue when it's Spanish. It is an issue with some of the other languages. MR. BARTOE: Jim Hoopingarner says he doesn't believe it is available anymore. MR. HOOPINGARNER: The gentleman came and asked Page 27 March 17, 2004 Maggie the other day if they did have translators and the answer is no, they do not anymore. They used to. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That was done for 20 years. I don't know that I believe that, gentlemen. Or Maggie said that? MR. HOOPINGARNER: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, Maggie, I believe. MR. BLUM: It seems like we need it now more than ever. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's just recent. That's something we need to check into. MR. BARTOE: Plus I believe it is not open book anymore. MR. GUITE': It's not an open book test anymore? MR. BARTOE: It's not open book anymore. MS. KF~LLER: We're going to be busy, huh? MR. NEALE: And he just advised him, said the same thing, that it is not open book when he went to take it. THE TRANSLATOR: And it's not in Spanish either. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, that's something the county needs to take up, and I don't know what appropriate authority would take that up with Experian -- Experior, but -- when we've got 50 plus percent of the people speaking Spanish as their major language, or their primary language. That's absurd. MR. BARTOE: We may, from a few things I've heard, have to look into other testing agencies. It appears some tests are being eliminated. We just got word of insulation yesterday. MR. BLUM: This gentleman took the test in Dade -- or he didn't, he got waived in Dade. I would kind of think that Dade would have the Spanish language available. I would think it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think Dade had Spanish. And he had it waived there, too, ostensibly because he couldn't pass it. So I don't know that the language is really the barrier here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Was -- the Miami test, was it in Spanish? Page 28 March 17, 2004 THE TRANSLATOR: CHAIRMAN DICKSON: THE TRANSLATOR: County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: you took it at Boynton Beach. For the Broward County license? No. Okay. We never took a test for Broward Okay. But you took it in Miami and THE TRANSLATOR: Miami was for Collier County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And it was not in Spanish? THE TRANSLATOR: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. BLUM: Why was it waived in Broward? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know. What Broward does and Dade County does, I don't really ever concern myself with. MS. KELLER: I think we've had people that have taken the test this year that have taken it in Spanish. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've heard of them in Spanish, yes. MR. JOSLIN: I don't know about this year. Maybe last year. MR. LLOYD: Has Daniel taken the test at all? THE TRANSLATOR: I'm sorry? MR. LLOYD: Has Daniel taken the test? THE TRANSLATOR: No. MR. LLOYD: Just your father. THE TRANSLATOR: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you taken the test? THE TRANSLATOR: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you work with him? THE TRANSLATOR: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But Daniel does? THE TRANSLATOR: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does Daniel speak English? THE TRANSLATOR: Yes. He's here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, is he? Page 29 March 17, 2004 THE TRANSLATOR: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How did he do on the test? THE TRANSLATOR: My brother? He never took it. MR. LLOYD: He didn't take it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, he didn't take it. Okay. Well, be that as it may, we still got the test scores in front of us, and the translation is another issue. How's the board feel? MR. BLUM: My inclination is to disapprove it. MR. LLOYD: I would like to see a couple more attempts, at least. I mean, there -- 64 was close on the business and law. That's encouraging. The painting part, and we've heard this in the past, is probably the one -- is supposedly one of the toughest tests to take. And from our side, I'd like us to at least explore the Spanish-- see if it's given in Spanish and/or if they've changed the open book policy. If we could do that, I'd like to see us do that. MR. BARTOE: Well, I understand the open book policy is done. MR. Right. And we've gotten some documentation verifying MR. MR. LLOYD: that? JOSLIN: This is only the painting portion. BARTOE: I'm sure office staff can obtain that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Could you by chance have a representative of Experior come to a board meeting in the next couple of months? MR. BARTOE: I have no idea if we can get them to come or not. We can attempt. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. BARTOE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We need to have a contact. MR. LLOYD: MR. NEALE: Would you try to do that? I mean, we deal with this constantly. And if things change, we need to know about it. I would also suggest that the board request that Page 30 March 17, 2004 there be an investigation of what other testing agencies might be out there. Because the board, within the ordinance, has the power to approve other testing agencies, if they are comparable to Experior. MR. LLOYD: That might be a motivation for them to come and speak to us. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe, can I add to your honey-do list? Would you do that also? MR. BARTOE: Look into other companies? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Look into other companies. MR. BARTOE: I'm -- we will do that, but I'm sure it's already been done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but if it's in our purview as this board, I would like to look at it. MR. BARTOE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't care if Experior does every other county in Florida, if we find someone better. MR. JOSLIN: Under the circumstances, I can't understand how this man could have passed the test. He can't speak English and they don't give the test in English -- or in Spanish. Then he's going to go back there and try again -- THE TRANSLATOR: He's been trying for almost -- you know, he's been spending money trying to get this license just to work here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, let me tell you about a guy we had from Poland -- MS. KELLER: That was my first meeting. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- who was a painting contractor, and he only spoke Polish. And every night when he would go home, he would work on his -- the English language. And every night, two hours every night for two years. And he would even work on the test. And it took him two years. And he started off with scores as bad as this. And our passing grade here is 75, not 70. Everybody else is 70. Page 31 March 17, 2004 We're 75. And he got into the 70s. Had one score of a 68. And we approved him. Because that was close enough. MS. KELLER: He took the test like 10 times. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, yeah, 10 or 12 times. Never gave up. And he kept coming before this board and we'd say go do some more. And it took him two years, but he got his license. If we approve scores of 36 and 45 in your trade, the very next meeting that's how thick the list will be of people wanting us to waive their exam. In other words, if we approve scores like that, the exam means nothing. And I worked too hard for my license to let that happen. So I don't know where the board's going, but I will never vote for scores like this. MR. JOSLIN: Also, considering the fact that he took the business and law portion and almost -- I mean, close, but he did very much better than he did for the actual trade license. So he does understand some English. MS. KELLER: But your son can take the test if he works for the company. If English is -- if the Spanish language is a big barrier, you might consider that as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did I have a motion on the floor, or not? MR. LLOYD: I think Daniel wants to come and be sworn in and say something. Daniel, you need to come and get sworn in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State your name. MR. GONZALEZ: Daniel Gonzalez. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. GONZALEZ: The reason I haven't took the test, I was diagnosed with dyslexia and it's really hard for me to write and read. And I'm going to school. I go to college. And I go to school, and I also go to school at night to develop skills to -- I go to a psychologist and other such doctors to try to help me how to write and read. I see everything backwards. And that's the main reason I haven't took the Page 32 March 17, 2004 test. I do very bad on tests is because everything I read is just like opposite, and writing the same way. But either that or I would have took the test for it. And yeah, the reason we're here is just because we do a good job and we are a good business, and our quality is really good. We are fair people. And we just want to work and get some business here, and this is a good -- Naples is growing, and it's just so much business here and so much money to grow. And this is -- that's what we want. We just want to work. And we have a good business and our quality is really good. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do I hear a motion? Did I have one? MR. BLUM: Yes, I move at this time we have to disapprove his application. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. GUITE': I'll second it, Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. The motion is to disapprove. All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've got to work a lot harder before you come to Collier County. Okay? THE TRANSLATOR: Thank you. Take the test? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Keep taking the test and improve it. Remember my example of the man from Poland, okay? THE TRANSLATOR: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well. Let's go back real quick. Tobias Simmons, did you come in? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do we have to keep that again, Mr. Bartoe? Mr. -- oh, that's right, he didn't get the certified mail. MR. BARTOE: No, it was -- Page 33 March 17, 2004 here MR. LLOYD: John Stan. MR. BARTOE: -- Mr. Stan didn't get certified mail. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, Tobias Simmons has been on twice and can't seem to show up. MR. BARTOE: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If Mr. Simmons can't show up for two different -- no, Tobias Simmons we had last month, or was it? MR. NEALE: Yeah, it was on last month. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, that was February And now he can't show up for the next meeting? MR. BARTOE: Sir, we can't hold their hands. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. I'm throwing mine away. John Stan never did show up. one we'll hang on to. I've also got an old one in here. meeting. Tell him to fill out a new packet. But he didn't get service, so that Let me ask. Rebecca Lopez, she never showed up. I think that was January, or December -- no, it was November meeting. I'm throwing that one away, too. She's never come back to you, has she? MR. BARTOE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Request to qualify a second entity. Okay. Old business, there is none. Public hearings, before we get started, does anybody need five, 10 minutes, or can we go right into it? MR. NEALE: I could use five minutes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pardon me? MR. NEALE: I could stand a five-minute break, please. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let's -- it's 9:57. Let's everyone be in here at 10:10. We'll have the hearing and we'll get that done this morning. (A recess was taken.) Page 34 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: the Collier County Licensing Board. Next on the agenda is Case No. Contractor Licensing versus Alan J. Shutters, Incorporated. I'd like to call to order the meeting of 2004-02, Collier County Vincent, d/b/a Rollsecure Let me tell you how the case will work. It does follow some precedence of what you're used to in a legal court, but we are not a legal court, we are quasi-judicial, which means we do allow hearsay. But the way we will start it off is the -- Collier County is prosecuting this case so they will open with an opening statement. Then whoever is the spokesman, I assume this is Rollsecure over here? Your spokesman will be allowed to make an opening statement. Not get into the particulars, but just give us a quick overview, like you see on TV. And then at that point the county will present their case, and they will present their witnesses. When he is finished, you will have an opportunity to ask their witnesses questions. More or less like a cross-examination. Then you will present your case. Same procedure. And the county will be able to ask your witnesses questions. Once we've gone through all of that, we will have a closing statement by each one of you, each of the two groups, and then you will see us close public hearing, which basically means we've heard all we're going to hear, and we go into our discussion, which another word for that would be deliberation, and you're just sitting there listening to us do our deliberations, which does meet the Florida Sunshine Law, so that you hear everything that's talked about on this case. And we will render an opinion from that point forward. So with that said in mind, let's get this thing started. Mr. Zachary, you want to open with an opening statement? MR. ZACHARY: Good morning. Robert Zachary, for the record, Assistant County Attorney. Page 35 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where is your mic? MR. ZACHARY: Right here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. ZACHARY: Robert Zachary for the record-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you hear him? You're not on it. MR. ZACHARY: There, how about right there? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There you go. MR. ZACHARY: Good morning, board. This is a case of petitioner Robert Mattheis versus Alan J. Vincent doing business as Rollsecure Shutters. An administrative complaint was filed charging Mr. Vincent and Rollsecure Shutters with violating Section 4.1.10 of the Contractor Licensing Code, failing to properly correct faulty workmanship or promptly replace faulty materials installed contrary to the provisions of the construction contract. Faulty workmanship means work that is not commenced, not continued or not completed in accordance with all specifications of the applicable written agreement. Faulty workmanship includes any material flaws in the quality and/or quantity of the unfinished or finished work product, including any item that does not function properly, as set -- as a part of the entire project. If there is no written agreement provision regarding the specific faulty workmanship issue, faulty workmanship exists if the work, process, product or part thereof does not meet generally accepted standards in Collier County in relation to the entire product. Faulty workmanship does not include matters of aesthetics, unless the aesthetically related item clearly violates a written contract specification directly related thereto. In summary, Mr. Mattheis, who owns a unit in an apartment on the third floor contracted with Mr. Vincent and Rollsecure Shutters to install a hurricane shutter on one of his windows. The work was completed, and after the work was completed, Mr. Mattheis began to Page 36 March 17, 2004 notice that water was leaking into the apartment. He contacted Rollsecure Shutters, but nothing was done to correct the leakage. An inspection by an independent contractor showed that the water was leaking due to the installation of the shutters, the faulty installation of the shutters. To this date, Rollsecure Shutters has inspected but still has done nothing to correct the problem. And the problem was corrected by a third party, and the leak has at this time stopped. But it's not been through any correction by Rollsecure Shutters. That's a summary of the case at this point. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Who's going to be the spokesman for Rollsecure Shutters? MR. PYTLIK: I am. Brett Pytlik, General Manager. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would step to that mic. there, I need for you to state your name and have you sworn in. MR. PYTLIK: Name is Brett Pytlik. I'm the general manager for Rollsecure Shutters. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What was the last name? MR. PYTLIK: Pytlik. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pitley, P-I-T-L-E-Y? MR. PYTLIK: Close. P-Y-T-L-I-K. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: L-I-K, Pytlik. MR. PYTLIK: Pytlik. It's Polish. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And if you'll give us an opening statement, Mr. Pytlik. MR. PYTLIK: Thank you. First of all, you know, on behalf of Rollsecure, we are embarrassed to be here today and to take up so much time. You know, in any business relationship, there's two sides to every story. We feel that we've put on a defense -- that you all have a copy Page 37 March 17, 2004 of, and I hope sincerely that you've taken the time to read it -- that we feel that we are not responsible in any way for the water intrusion into this building. Rollsecure Shutters have become one of the largest shutter companies in Southwest Florida, and we've done that through a solid reputation, a professional, dedicated work force. This is not meant to be an advertising pitch, it's meant to be an explanation of why we've arrived at where we have today. We have literally done thousands -- I was trying to get a figure of this before we came here today -- thousands of installations through Collier, yourselves, Lee, and none of which, never once, have we ever had a complaint such as this, a complaint of water intrusion. And I just wanted to really perhaps say that, first of all. We contracted back in May to put Mattheis's property. We were brought-- attention -- again, it's in the packet that I've these shutters in Mr. it was brought to our given you all. It was brought to our attention that Mr. Mattheis was complaining of water ingress. We went along on two occasions, and one of our witnesses today will attest to the various people he spoke to at the building. And we were told right up front that there was leakage in this building. Oh, yes, it's been leaking for a long time. We, in September, I believe it was, again it's in the pack, offered to shutters off. What we asked Mr. with his lawyer to pay equipment, should, fault. come down with a cherry picker, to come along and take those Mattheis to do was to lodge some money for all of our work, the renting of the as we believed we'd prove, that it was not our If you -- this job, don't forget, was installed, inspected and passed by Collier. And now a third party comes along and tells us, oh, this, this isn't right. We feel it was inspected correctly, we feel it was installed correctly. Page 38 March 17, 2004 We did offer to come down, take the shutters off to try to ascertain and prove our innocence, but we did ask that he would lodge with a third party some monies to allow us to do that. And if as we -- as I said, we believe we'd prove that we were not at fault, we would have our expenses covered. And that really is our defense. We've gone on, we've taken photographs since then. Again, I just the other day sent some more photographs to Mr. Hoopingarner. There is extensive work being done by a -- forgive me, I've forgotten the name as I'm stood here today -- by a company in water sealing and proofing that building. The expansion cracks, by the look of it now, have nearly all been completed. And again, I think that when you've had time to study and look at this, there is a history of water penetration here. Again, I'm sorry that we're here today. We want to put on an honest defense, but I just want to say all along, I offered to remedy this, to put monies in a third party. We never took them off the table and they're still there today. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. PYTLIK: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Zachary, I'll let you get started presenting the case. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. The county will call Robert Mattheis. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Zachary, should we get a composite and a defense packet entered into evidence? MR. ZACHARY: Before we do that, let's -- and I move the defense packet and the composite, the county packet, or petitioner packet be moved into evidence. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you gentlemen hear him? Okay. I need for you to state your name and have you sworn in, please. MR. MATTHEIS: Robert Mattheis. (Speaker was duly sworn.) Page 39 March 17, 2004 MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Mattheis, can you -- are you the owner of a unit at 301, at 1590 Clermont Drive, here in Naples? MR. MATTHEIS: Yes. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. At some point in time, did you contract with Rollsecure Shutters to install a hurricane shutter on one of your third floor windows? MR. MATTHEIS: Yes, I signed a contract in April of 2003. MR. ZACHARY: Could you relate to the board what your experience after contracting with Rollsecure Shutters? MR. MATTHEIS: Okay. Before I get into the details of the complaint, I'd like to say that I believe Rollsecure has an excellent product, and most of the cases they probably do a very good installation. But something went really wrong on this one. We also recognize the condominium's exterior walls have had problems. But that condition in no way relates to the leakage caused by Rollsecure. It's unfortunate that we have to bring the problem up to this level. At the very beginning of the process, if Rollsecure had handled two things differently, their installation would have been fine and the problem never would have arisen. First, they did not go through the condominium review and approval procedure. Second, they tried to do a job under difficult, if not impossible self-imposed conditions. When Rollsecure's agent, Mr. Managney made his proposal to install the shutter, I asked him for specifications that I could present to the condominium for their approval before any work was done. I was aware of this condo requirement, because I had done the same thing two years previous when I had the lanai enclosed. Mr. Managney said there is no need to give me specifications, as it was standard procedure for the company to handle this for the client. He said they were well aware of the approval procedure, having done others in Pelican Marsh and even in our condo in Clermont. Foolishly, I believed him. When the water infiltration started, I quickly was made aware that no approval was ever sought. Page 40 March 17, 2004 While I may have been naive to believe Mr. Managney, I have just recently discovered Rollsecure did another shutter installation in Clermont a few months earlier where they got condominium approval from Mr. Sapp, the condominium manager. They were well aware of their requirement, because the owner in that case, Mr. Strom, was also told by Rollsecure that they would handle the approval. Mr. Strom was a little more skeptical than I, and he checked, and they had not gone through the process. So Rollsecure had to do a hurry-up job to get approval and chase down Mr. Sapp up in Fort Myers to get him to sign off. And that's where Mr. Sapp put on the usual additional requirements to the specifications. These additional requirements were what Mr. Vincent told me were totally unnecessary and merely cosmetic. I since looked at Mr. Strom's window, which is virtually the same as mine, and I tell you, it's quite obvious these additional requirements would have avoided many problems. I'll get to the details on that a little later. The second matter that would have avoided all this is doing installation -- doing an installation under very difficult conditions. At the time of the proposal, I commented to Mr. Managney they'd have to use a lift to get to the window. He said not at all. We use a window jack on the sill. I had never heard the expression window jack. When I heard jack I thought well, jack something up. Okay. If you'll look at Exhibit E 13 in your pack, which is this picture, that's what we're dealing with. MR. ZACHARY: That's El4. MR. MATTHEIS: Yeah. The window itself is seven feet, four inches high from sill to top. Another three inches up is the bottom of the shutter housing. Then above that there are two screws four and six inches higher that hold the shutter shaft in place. So we're talking about eight feet here above a very precarious platform, working on that to reach up that high. I didn't watch the process, unfortunately, so Page 41 March 17, 2004 I can't say how someone can reach that high and maneuver a drill with any accuracy or force. So no approval was sought for the installation and as a result, under difficult working conditions, here is what resulted: There's a half-inch gap between the shutter housing and the wall, as well as on the side here above, above the molding, where the molding arches out. And the -- so therefore, the only attachment to the wall is that which is in orange. Everything else is freestanding, half-inch away from the wall. If closing that is cosmetic, I don't quite understand that. The tape that you see on the side of your other exhibits that show side views of the shutter was put on by Randy Diddaly (phonetic), who works at the condo, on October 13th. That was after Mr. Elakman's inspection from the lift, and it was done from the lift. Despite a number of heavy rains since that time in October, we haven't had a drop of rain since they put the tape on the top of the shutter housing. Now, that's just a temporary repair, it's certainly not MR. ZACHARY: Okay, Mr. Mattheis, the tape is shown on El4 as well, the top picture, I believe; is that correct? MR. MATTHEIS: Yes. One is one side and one's the other side. MR. ZACHARY: Now, that tape was put on by someone other than Rollsecure Shutters? MR. MATTHEIS: for the condominium. MR. ZACHARY: Yes, definitely, by Mr. Diddaly, who works Okay. And up until that time, after Rollsecure Shutters had installed the shutter, that's when you first started noticing the water leak? MR. MATTHEIS: Yes. The first part of it came about July 1st of when -- first heavy rain. We were not in town at that time. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. And the tape since put on by another party has stopped the leak? MR. MATTHEIS: Yes. Page 42 March 17, 2004 MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Continue, please. MR. MATTHEIS: Going back to Mr. Strom's shutter, which was installed by Rollsecure a few months before mine, you don't have a copy of that picture, but it shows a job that's very well done. There's -- like I can pass out some of these to the board. It's very well sealed on the side and on the top. As a matter of fact, the entire housing was put all the way up to the eave of the building and does not rest on the arc of the molding, which is where our problem -- main problem is caused. MR. ZACHARY: Rollsecure Shutters? MR. MATTHEIS: months prior to ours. MR. ZACHARY: Is that -- was that installation also done by Yes. Yes, it is. It was done, I think, six Okay. And I notice that it apparently has caulk in areas that are not caulked or sealed on your installation; is that correct? MR. MATTHEIS: That's right. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. MR. MATTHEIS: The main point is that this installation does not rest on top of the molding, which is the problem. The shutter installation has somehow crushed the molding and caused the leakage to enter at that point. And by the way, I verified with Mr. Strom that this work was done by a lift, not from a platform that was well below the working area. I don't know if my molding was crushed by the shutter housing slamming into the wall on installation or just squeezed into it by overtightened screws. But as Mr. Elakman's report states, and he'll speak to this, this is the source of the leakage. The top of the shutter is about four feet -- four square feet in area. This is just a section through the window, so it continues over to here. On that four feet, if you can imagine the water running off the roof, Page 43 March 17, 2004 roof tiles, coming down. There's no gutter up here. Coming down. The wind pushing the rain back, collecting on four square feet of horizontal surface. The only place for the stuff to go is down the back and down under the shutter. This is where the water is pouring in. While the Tapcon screws have a good seal with concrete, if they're set -- but if they're set in poorly drilled holes, it appears they can cause problems. What happens to the adhesion of stucco to the concrete when moisture gets between these two materials? I had another enlarged photo here that really zoomed in. But you can see the large dark area around the Tapcon screw, which is this thing. But it may hold very well to the concrete behind the stucco. But when the stucco is all broken by a probably difficult installation for the guy, because he's reaching up like this -- as a matter of fact, that screw hole was in at an angle, not straight in -- it seemed like it's obvious there was going to be a problem. And further, Rollsecure's engineering drawings for the job shows the location of the fasteners of the screws in relation to the windows. The screws in the track do not have the three-and-a-half inch edge distance from the edge of the window to where they are over at this point. It's only two-and-a-quarter inches. That may be a minor point, but it's a -- certainly doesn't follow the specifications. But more, more to my concern, I fear that the screws that attach the shutter housing, the rolled up shutter here, are these two screws here, and then two on the other side, fall very close, if not on the juncture of the plywood framing around the window and the concrete. Now, for those screws to take all the tension and torque created by the motor turning the shutter, as well as holding all that weight on the location right there, doesn't seem like would be the safest and most long-lasting connection. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Mattheis, you're talking about the plywood framing that's the arch of the window that's depicted on Page 44 March 17, 2004 Exhibit -- on E 127 MR. MATTHEIS: Yes. MR. ZACHARY: And it shows that how the plywood framing was placed in there to make the arch in the window rather than have it concrete; is that correct? MR. MATTHEIS: That's right. MR. ZACHARY: All right. MR. MATTHEIS: The interior water damage to the apartment includes about 45 linear feet of baseboard, which are totally warped, and wallboard six up -- six to 12 inches up from the floor. Stained and damaged grout and tile floor, the cracked tile where the installer dropped part of the window jack on the floor, and more dramatically the wallboard that was cut out on both sides of the window, which also shows on one of the exhibits, all the way up, which we've been living with since October; September, October. Additional expenses were incurred by the condominium, which Mr. Sapp will address. Now, I don't want to get into a lengthy chronology of events prior to my asking -- chronology of events that happened prior to my asking the county for help, but I'll point out some that show how Rollsecure put off any action, even after they said they would. The heavy work rain -- the first evidence of the leak was on July 1 st. July 14th, Mr. -- I e-mailed Mr. Vincent to alert him to the leak and requested some documentation as to the condo approval for the installation, as the condo was asking me where's the approval. He never answered. I sent e-mails, I sent registered letters. My niece went to his office. We never got an answer. On July 23rd, the developer, Mr. Ericson, of the building, and the builder from Royal Palm Builders, went up in a lift to inspect the shutter. He identified the Tapcon screws were unsealed and drilled at an angle and the stucco was chipped away at the drill holes. My niece left a copy of his report at the Rollsecure office. This was on July Page 45 March 17, 2004 23rd. On August 7th, my niece assembled people from Rollsecure, the condominium management, the developer and the builder. Rollsecure -- the Rollsecure installer, who was there, I believe it was Mark Bebe, admitted to those present that no caulk was placed at the higher points because he couldn't reach, and that some of the screws were drilled at an angle for the same reason. Rollsecure stated they would come back the following week with a lift and finish caulking the shutter. Four days later, and before the following week, I received e-mail from Mr. Vincent stating his crew were at the August 7th meeting and found no evidence of the installation causing the leak. The commitment to come back with a lift and caulk was not mentioned, nor did it ever happen. His final sentence was: Rollsecure stands behind our installation 100 percent. If we may be of future assistance, please don't hesitate to call. On September 4th, I returned to Naples to try to straighten things out because my niece was having an unbearable time trying to deal with the situation. The next day, on the 5th, there was a very, very heavy rain, lasted all day and into the night. I kept sucking it up with towels until I finally wised up and got a shop vacuum to scoop it up. But just toweling alone, I pulled out 12 gallons of water. I don't know what I got with the shop vac. On September 12th, after a week of trying to contact Mr. Vincent for a face-to-face meeting, I was able to speak with him by phone. He documented the conversation by a letter, Rollsecure's Exhibit B, said he would come out on September 17th with a lift and remove shutter and test each anchoring hole, with the caveat that I put up $5,000. The September 17th visit never happened. And on September 23rd, a water test was arranged by our condo management with Mr. Paul Sapp, Mr. Randy Diddaly, a representative of Royal Palm builders, Mr. Tinklepaugh from Rollsecure and my niece and myself. Page 46 March 17, 2004 Wallboard around the window was removed and water was directed onto the exterior of each side of the window, starting at floor level and working up. There was no penetration until the water reached -- was directed at the highest point of the window area where the framing is plywood, encircling the top of the window. At this point, Steve recognized where the installation was a problem. He wrote a letter to Mr. Sapp on his remm to the office, which is county Exhibit E4 and Rollsecure's Exhibit EC. It stated Rollsecure would return on September 25th, two days later, with a lift, removing the shutter and patch any anchor holes, retest higher -- and retest higher for water. He also said if penetration is other than their installation, they would seek compensation for the lift, time and materials. This never happened. The two days passed and no one showed up. Apparently Mr. Vincent put a stop on the scheduled repair. October 13th, P&M Management hired a lift and had the condo's construction consultant, Mr. Sy Elakman, go up for an unbiased evaluation of the installation. His report is proof of what Mr. Vincent refuses to accept. This pattern of saying they would fix it has continued even after it was in the hands of the County Contractor Licensing office. Regarding the water leakage throughout the building, I think Mr. Sapp and Mr. Diddaly can respond much better than I. They will also address Mr. Vincent's supporting witness's close inspection of the window and exterior walls. That's pretty much the history to now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have any other witnesses? MR. ZACHARY: I don't have any further questions for this witness. Any questions from the board? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to save your questions, or you want to do them as we go? Page 47 March 17, 2004 MR. PYTLIK: We'd like to do them now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, wait a minute, we can't speak from the audience. Mr. Pytlik, come to the mic, please. MR. PYTLIK: Yes, we would like to address Mr. Mattheis on a couple of issues that he made, if I may. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. PYTLIK: Mr. Vincent has a couple. I just have one if-- you inferred in your statement regarding the use of Tapcons and about sealant. We did put in the pack, and I did contact the manufacturer of the Tapcons, and there is a letter from them, from Textron, stating that, you know, with the correct drill size, which we do use, that there is no water penetration. I think you mentioned 16 gallons of water through -- I'm not sure how many screws there are in there. But it's inconceivable that amount of water could have come through the screws. MR. MATTHEIS: I understand. MR. PYTLIK: And there's one other question, if I may say -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you making a statement or do you have -- MR. PYTLIK: I'm making -- I am making a response. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Save your response. Do you have any questions? MR. PYTLIK: I don't. I think Mr. Vincent had a couple. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I need for you to state your name and be sworn in. MR. VINCENT: Alan John Vincent. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What questions do you have? MR. VINCENT: The question is, you own a unit in the building, obviously, in the Clermont? MR. MATTHEIS: Pardon? Page 48 March 17, 2004 MR. VINCENT: You own a unit -- MR. MATTHEIS: Yes. MR. VINCENT: -- in the Clermont? When you bought that unit, is it your responsibility to get approval to do anything to your unit? Is that what you sign for when you buy that unit? MR. MATTHEIS: Yes, but-- MR. VINCENT: Is it my responsibility as a contractor to get the permit from the county? Which I did. I am -- you keep saying we never got the approval. You as a unit owner -- and I think anyone there knows, if they live in a condominium, when you buy a unit, it is your responsibility, not my company, to get permission from your association. You're blacking us, saying we never got it. It is not our responsibility to get it. If some of my salesmen -- MR. ZACHARY: Is there a question here? I'm going to object to this, this dialogue. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't be argumentative. Just ask your question. MR. VINCENT: Sorry. Did you seek the permission to get the approval, as per your condominium documents that you signed for? MR. MATTHEIS: Foolishly, I did not because your salesman said that, don't worry. I asked for the specifications so I could do it. He said no, I don't need to give you the specifications, we take care of that. MR. VINCENT: Did you have any leaks in your unit before we did this, before we did the shutter? MR. MATTHEIS: The previous year we had a leak which was caused by poor caulking on the underside of the sill. MR. VINCENT: So youact-- MR. MATTHEIS: -- which was taken care of. MR. VINCENT: So previously to us working there, you had Page 49 March 17, 2004 leaks in your unit? MR. MATTHEIS: Yes. MR. VINCENT: And since we've done the shutter has another contractor come out and started curing other cracks and problems in your building as well? MR. MATTHEIS: There has been some work on cracks on the building, but not in the area we're talking about. MR. VINCENT: So the expansion joint that showed -- I'm not sure what picture it is, I'm sorry -- that comes right into your window, has that since we've done been filled in? I mean, it shouldn't be filled in, I understand. But has someone come out and filled the expansion joint leading into the window? MR. MATTHEIS: Yes, but you're speaking of a subject now where I think some of my witnesses are better able to answer it. MR. VINCENT: Well, I'm asking you because you're making -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'm going to interrupt here. Let me ask -- you stay where you are, let me ask some questions. And because we do have a couple of-- we have three consumers on this board, I'm going to make some comments so we can knock off some of this. I'm not going to get into an argument with anybody. If you'll turn to Page El7. That's the inside picture of that window. Tell me exactly where the water was coming in. MR. MATTHEIS: The water is -- I believe is coming in from the peak of the arch of the window. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You don't know? Did you not ever see the water coming in after you tore that wall out? MR. MATTHEIS: Well, it was never torn out above the window. But the water was rolling around down here, and this is where the water was seen as it got to this point. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. MATTHEIS: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, so it was seen at that higher level? Okay. Now, if you'll mm back-- I Page 50 March 17, 2004 have spent my last year involved in mold and fungus like I've never seen in this town. If you all look at Page E 14, what they're calling expansion joints, they're not really expansion joints, they're control joints. And they come in, you can see them on the bottom of E 14, they come in at the bottom of the archway. And yes, control joints are supposed to be filled. Because if they're not filled and they're not caulked, then that control joint gets -- puts the water right there where it meets the window, will put water behind the buck of the window. But what I'm hearing described here is the water -- the water, if you go back and look at where those control joints come in, the water is coming above those control joint heights, so it's not a control joint issue; am I correct? MR. MATTHEIS: That's what I believe. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'll let you continue with your questions, but can we agree -- do you all agree where the water was coming in? Did you ever see it? MR. VINCENT: I've never seen the water coming in. No, we just -- you know, I honestly believe that Mr. Mattheis thinks we caused the leaks. I don't dispute his belief at all. And I honestly believe that we didn't cure it. And that's why I offered if he was to put -- I didn't ask him to pay us. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't make a statement, just -- you're going to have all the time in the world you want. But then if you look at that last picture, which doesn't have a page on it -- yeah, it does, El6 -- you see where those two control joints come in? They come in right at the beginning of the arch. And what you're explaining to me, if you go mm the very next page, that water is well above the beginning of that arch. So I don't think control joints have an issue here. MR. VINCENT: I don't think -- has anyone seen water pouring in? Page 51 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, you've probably got other witnesses for that. Do you have any other questions? MR. VINCENT: Yeah. I mean, did you actually see my installer reaching up to do the shutter? You're saying we didn't -- you know, you're saying he was -- this job was done with window jacks and a boshun's chair coming from above. And that's how we actually installed it. The one that's at the other end of the building that you say we used a cherry picker on, yeah, we -- but because there was lots of windows around the back that we did. We did about six, seven windows for that customer. And that's why it was cost effective to have a cherry picker on it. One -- doing one shutter is not cost effective. You rent a cherry picker for 600. Because you wasn't charged for that. MR. MATTHEIS: I wasn't even offered that opportunity. MR. VINCENT: Sorry? MR. MATTHEIS: I wasn't even offered the choice of a higher price. I was given a flat price. MR. VINCENT: I want to try and explain to some people here -- MR. ZACHARY: I believe Mr. Vincent can explain when he has his witnesses and he testifies. MR. VINCENT: Are we allowed to -- MR. ZACHARY: You're going to make a presentation -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me make a point here, or you and I are going to get crossways with each other. You're allowed to ask questions in a cross-examination. You're not going to present your case. MR. VINCENT: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're going to have time for that. So you need to understand that. You're going to be able to present your case. Do you have any more questions? Don't present your case. MR. VINCENT: Yes, one more. Page 52 March 17, 2004 The unit we did at the other end, did that unit -- you took pictures of it, which I've not seen -- did that building there have gutters above the windows? Have a gutter? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The pictures we have show it doesn't have gutters. MR. VINCENT: Strom. No, the picture of the other job we did, the MR. MATTHEIS: Yes, yes. MR. VINCENT: They've got gutters above their window? MR. MATTHEIS: Yes. MR. VINCENT: So the water doesn't -- won't run directly down onto the wall, because that's got gutters. Your unit hasn't got gutters, does it, above it? MR. MATTHEIS: Not on that wall, no. MR. VINCENT: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions? MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Mattheis, you need to show the board the picture of the -- of that -- MR. VINCENT: I haven't seen that picture. MR. ZACHARY: -- is in question now. It's -- I believe that you called that up earlier? MR. VINCENT: If I can just ask one question. Was we meant to have had some of this, this evidence before? And was we entitled to look at this, to examine it -- you know, pictures that are being shown us now and stuff that we never seen? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Were they not given a packet, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: MR. VINCENT: MR. BARTOE: believe anybody has seen. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm sorry? No, we wasn't. Some of these pictures he's showing, I don't The only pictures I've seen so far is Page 53 March 17, 2004 what's in my packet. MR. BARTOE: That's all I've seen. MR. MATTHEIS: This was the additional picture. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That -- if there's additional pictures, those will be entered into evidence and you'll be given copies of it. But were you given this packet? MR. VINCENT: We was given that package, but-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's all we've seen so far. MR. VINCENT: But when we asked to present pictures, we was told we had to get 15 copies and you people had to have it before the meeting. And now Mr. Mattheis is offering up photographs that none of us has an opportunity to look at or anything. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That -- we'll sometimes accept those, and you can get it-- MR. ZACHARY: Well, Mr. Vincent, at this point I can -- I can authenticate the pictures as representing what he saw when he took the pictures and we can enter -- mark them and enter them into evidence. MR. NEALE: And if I may, the normal procedure for the board is if new evidence is brought in that's not in either of the packets, it is typically moved into evidence and then the respondent is given an opportunity to review that evidence that is being brought. And we've had it happen a number of times here, where people have brought in demonstrative evidence or, you know, the tile cases where people have brought in samples of the tile and so forth. But Mr. Vincent is correct in stating that he should be given the opportunity to examine and respond to those -- the evidence being presented. MR. ZACHARY: Right. The procedure is show the -- Mr. Vincent the evidence that is -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. them he ZACHARY: would make Right. I just haven't seen any. -- moved in, and if he has any objection to them at that point and then they would be Page 54 March 17, 2004 entered into evidence. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Exactly. Which, if we enter that, that's exactly what will happen. MR. NEALE: Well, but since it is being used by the -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I haven't seen it. MR. ZACHARY: We haven't seen them. MR. NEALE: Okay. But if the witness is going to use them -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If it gets entered, that's the procedure we'll follow. MR. NEALE: Well, no, if he uses it to illustrate something, he -- it should be moved into evidence, so that the -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. That was the first time it's been flashed up. MR. ZACHARY: MR. MATTHEIS: Okay, well, this-- I had made six packets to distribute, but-- MR. LLOYD: Let's hold that, if we may, and wait until Mr. Vincent makes a presentation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Zachary will handle the introduction of any additional evidence. It will not be done by him, okay? Do you have any other questions? MR. VINCENT: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. ZACHARY: You know, at this time, we -- could you hold that -- again, hold that up and describe what that is to the board? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, before we go there, are we going to introduce this as additional evidence? MR. NEALE: Yes, Mr. Zachary will properly qualify it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. ZACHARY: That's -- that's what I'm trying to do now. Can you identify that and tell the board what that is? MR. MATTHEIS: This is an installation that Rollsecure did on a Page 55 March 17, 2004 building five buildings down from ours on the fourth floor, with an arc window just like ours. In this case, his tracks were lined up on the outside of the molding, which gave them the three-and-a-half inches edge distance. They're completely sealed. The back of the unit is completely sealed. And the entire housing is pushed up to the eaves, which would have been nice had it been done in ours. But more importantly, the housing does not rest on the molding, which is where the problem is. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. And that picture accurately represents the scene as -- and did you take that picture? MR. MATTHEIS: Yes. MR. ZACHARY: At this time, could you show that to Mr. Vincent? MR. JOSLIN: Could I just -- one question. Does this picture that we're looking at, or is being presented now, is this an accurate depiction of the actual unit, another condo unit that is identical to the one that Rollsafe (sic) installed on-- MR. ZACHARY: I believe that's -- it's an identical window -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Here's the point -- MR. VINCENT: Rollsecure. MR. JOSLIN: That's why I'm asking this, is because in the picture I just saw, there's already a difference in the height. I'm asking why it wasn't placed up underneath the gutters. From what I can see, it looks like quite a differential between the top of the one that we have pictures of-- MR. VINCENT: It's a different installation altogether. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, and the other thing I'm going to get into, is I'm not going to get into a guttering issue, pro or con. Because I'm not going to allow Rollsafe (sic) to say, well, if you guttered the unit-- MR. VINCENT: It's Rollsecure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Rollsecure. Page 56 March 17, 2004 If you guttered the units you wouldn't have a problem. You took the building as it was found. Over here it's an entirely different issue, because it is up underneath the gutter. Proceed if you want, but right now, that picture doesn't mean anything to us except maybe the installation of the shutter itself. But not height, not gutter, not any other issues. Okay? Do you agree with that? Do you have any objections to that picture, Mr. Vincent? Are you now the spokesman, or is Mr. Pytlik? MR. VINCENT: Well, we both got different things to say. If we're allowed to both question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. LLOYD: Are we finished with their questions? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you finished with questions for-- you didn't have any other questions? MR. VINCENT: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me get Mr. Pytlik up here. Please sit down. You started off as the spokesman, you're going to stay the spokesman. MR. PYTLIK: That's fine. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm not going to have four spokesmen. MR. PYTLIK: No, I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? Do you have any objection this to this picture? MR. PYTLIK: Insofar as I'm not sure what it's representing to this case, but, you know, no, I don't. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you wanting to move this into evidence, Mr. Zachary? MR. ZACHARY: Yes, county moves it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And what's this -- MR. ZACHARY: That would be County Exhibit B into Page 57 March 17, 2004 evidence at this time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: B? MR. ZACHARY: B. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I need a motion to move this picture into evidence as Exhibit B. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MS. KFJLLER: Second, Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Proceed, Mr. Zachary. MR. ZACHARY: That's all the questions I have. Just to clarify that what this picture depicts -- and it's in evidence now and I think the board can see on the visualizer, on your screens what this is. And -- MR. NEALE: You should have it on your screens in front of you there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not coming up on our screens. You guys got it? MR. JOSLIN: Push the bottom button. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, bottom button. Wonderful. MR. LLOYD: New technology. We apologize. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, it's obviously right up underneath the soffit tight. There's no water could get on top of this unit if it tried. MR. JOSLIN: No. MR. BLUM: And the gutter really isn't an issue in that one. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, the gutter isn't. MR. ZACHARY: I think it illustrates the difference in the installation from comparing Exhibit B to the installation and El7 in your packet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, it is flush to the wall. MR. ZACHARY: That's what we're trying to -- Page 58 March 17, 2004 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, Mr. Zachary, your next witness. MR. ZACHARY: County would call Mr. Elakman. (Speaker was duly swom). MR. ZACHARY: Would you introduce yourself to the board, please. MR. ELAKMAN: I am Sy Elakman. I'm employed by Elakman, Incorporated. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Elakman, I have the benefit of your resume in front of me, but I don't think the board does. Could you -- could you tell the board what your qualifications are as far as any certifications or any licenses? MR. ELAKMAN: I'm a state certified general contractor, a state certified roofing contractor. I'm certified as a roofing and waterproofing consultant by RCI. I'm certified by the Council of American Building Officials as a building official. I'm certified by the Standard Building Code Congress as a building inspector. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Elakman, did there come a time when you were asked to inspect an installation of a hurricane shutter that was installed in the Clermont building in unit 301 ? MR. ELAKMAN: Yes, sir. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Could you relate to the board what your findings were when you went out there to inspect that shutter installation? MR. ELAKMAN: The management company had arranged for a high lift. I first went inside the unit, and you have pictures showing the interior where the wallboard had been removed, and I looked at that in the unit itself. I then went outside and looked-- got into the high lift and looked at the installation of the shutter. I was able to get above the shutter so I could look behind it. The shutter-- there was a space all along the top of the shutter where it was held away from the wall because it was mounted on the decorative band and fastened near Page 59 March 17, 2004 the ends, pulled tight over the band. Looking down behind the shutter, which I could not photograph, you could see that the band was crushed, the top of the band at the 90-degree angle where it met the wall was -- there was just a large open crack of crushed stucco at that point. And that appeared to be the major location of the major water intrusion. Additionally, there were openings around the screw penetrations. The upper screws obviously went into an area that still -- that had wire lath, so it was probably right at the edge of the masonry to the plywood framing. And it had crushed, and there were some very large holes, so -- and they were not sealed, that some water could flow in through those holes. But the major part of it was where the water went right down the wall, hit the top of that band, and just flowed into the framed area of the wall at the top of the window. There were other photos circulated around about the control joints. Those are formed controlled joints. They're at the very bottom of the window, well below the window, and had absolutely nothing to do with this situation, whether they're filled or not. The waterproofing work that is being done by South Florida Painting and Waterproofing is being done on the lanai decks at the rear of the building and have absolutely nothing to do with the walls. There have been on this building in the past a number of cracks in the stucco that occur very often on stucco buildings, and they've been maintained over the period of time. I've worked for Clermont for the last probably three or four years, trying to take care of some of the problems they have. It's a large association. But there were no areas on this side of the building where large amounts of water had come in in the past. There was a very small leak at the window sill reported a year previously. It was handled by the maintenance man or somebody coming in there and just caulking the window sill, or the underside of the window sill. Page 60 March 17, 2004 This installation was directly responsible for the very large amount of water intrusion that occurred at the top of the window. The management company hired a lift and did a water test. At that water test, an employee of Rollsecure Shutters was there witnessing the test. They brought water up starting below the window and up the window, and water did not leak in until they got near the top of the window. And their employee saw that. That was prior to this time. So with all of the things going around about these other cracks and nobody saw the water and nobody told us they saw it, the other cracks had absolutely nothing to do with this. The deck work of the other-- the back of all of the buildings where they're putting a deck coating on the decks has nothing to do with the walls. MR. ZACHARY: So you were actually present when a water test was conducted on that particular window? MR. ELAKMAN: MR. ZACHARY: MR. ELAKMAN: MR. ZACHARY: MR. ELAKMAN: We did not do a water test, no, sir. So the water test was done at a later date? No, prior to. Prior to? Yes, sir. I could see the water stains at the inside of the wall, but we didn't put more water on it because it was so obvious that there was an opening in the wall, no sense putting more water inside the building. MR. ZACHARY: Okay, in your -- after your inspection, did you determine whether or not the shutter was correctly installed? MR. ELAKMAN: The shutter was installed bearing on the top of the arch and connected outside of that, at the very outside, and it appears that the pressure of attaching that enclosure damaged the stucco on the arch. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. But in your opinion, should the shutter have been installed on the outside of the arch, as we see the -- done on what is County Exhibit B, which is on the visualizer at this point? Page 61 March 17, 2004 MR. ELAKMAN: That would have been a much safer way to do and the way it's normally done that I've seen in other places. It it, There's really no reason to install it directly on a decorative arch. should have been installed above that. MR. ZACHARY: In your estimation, what would it take to correctly -- or correct the situation where the water's coming in? MR. ELAKMAN: Moving the entire assembly, similar to what's shown in that photograph would do it. Repair of all the damage and doing a flashing at the top of the enclosure, leaving it where it is, would solve it. I recommended that they use some tape or something temporarily, which the handyman for the association did, he used aluminum face peel and stick paint -- peel and stick tape in an L-shape at the top, from the wall to the top of this. That stopped the water intrusion. But it's a very temporary situation, leaving tape up there. But that did the job. I don't think the entire assembly is as well secured as it should be. It should be moved above the arch. MR. ZACHARY: Has the repair that was done prevented the water from going in behind the top of the shutter and is now preventing a water leak? MR. ELAKMAN: The tape has accomplished that, but it still, it's just tape. MR. ZACHARY: But in your opinion, the reason for the leak was because it was installed away from the wall, there was a gap, thus allowing the water to get in behind it and then in to penetrate where it was attached at the top of the shutter? MR. ELAKMAN: Well, it was a combination of the way it was installed on top of the arch, and then putting pressure on the outside of the enclosure, which crushed that decorative-- MR. ZACHARY: So the water was entering where the enclosure was crushed by the installation and also penetrating, in your opinion, some of the attachment -- some of the attachment holes? Page 62 March 17, 2004 MR. ELAKMAN: Yes, sir. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. I don't have anything further of this witness. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. I have a question. Did you inspect the roof above this window? MR. ELAKMAN: I had inspected the roof previously. Not in relation to this, just a general inspection of the entire project. Again, stating that a boshun's chair was used. It's a tile, slip tile roof above this. I see that it-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I see the tile, it's a Monier Lifetile Espana. MR. ELAKMAN: Right. And that isn't for a boshun's chair-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me talk. MR. ELAKMAN: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you look at El6, they obviously crashed tiles, I assume, with a bosman (sic) chair, and that crushed tile is directly above the leak in the window. MR. ELAKMAN: I don't have those photographs, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you show him one? MR. ELAKMAN: That's possibly a cracked tile at the top. I don't know when the photograph was taken. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's not a cracked tile, that's a crushed tile. MR. ELAKMAN: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: tape put on? MR. ELAKMAN: when. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: no leak on this window? MR. MATTHEIS: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you're telling me -- when was this After October 8th. I don't know exactly And since October 8th, there's been Okay. Then I'd just rule out the roof. Page 63 March 17, 2004 Because we've had some torrential rains You've had no leaks since October the 8th? MR. MATTHEIS: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. questions. Do you have any questions? since October the 8th. I don't have any other MR. PYTLIK: If I may, as general manager of the business, I'm not technically qualified to ask this gentleman, but can I ask Steve Tinklepaugh, who is our installation manager, to ask -- address the witnesses some questions? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I'm trying to figure out who the spokesman for your group is going to be. MR. PYTLIK: Well, you know, I'm trying to represent the company through the proceedings, you know, in a non-legal manner, but we have some very special witnesses. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: It's very similar as if they had had an attorney representing them and they're bringing in people to ask the questions or serve as experts -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And that's -- MR. NEALE: That's certainly appropriate. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's appropriate? Okay. MR. NEALE: Yeah. However, he would have to be sworn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Have him come forward. MR. PYTLIK: Appreciate that. Thank you very much. I'd like to introduce Steve Tinklepaugh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you'll state your name, please. I need to have you sworn in, also. MR. TINKLEPAUGH: Steve Tinklepaugh. (Speaker was duly sworn.) as in MR. TINKIJEPAUGH: Yes. Steve. T as in Tom, 1-N-K-L-E, P Peter, A-U-G-H. Page 64 March 17, 2004 One of the questions I have, this is the picture of the actual installation. You said that the band was crushed, I gather, at the top of the band? MR. ELAKMAN: That photo is not the one that we're looking at, that photo is one where the -- MR. TINKLEPAUGH: This is a different application, I understand that. MR. ELAKMAN: Right. MR. TINKLEPAUGH: But basically I just want -- I'm trying to -- you're saying at the top of the band here is where it was crushed? MR. ELAKMAN: Correct. The actual enclosure is just almost -- where the shutter is sticking out over the band, that's about where the enclosure is mounted on this unit. MR. TINKI.EPAUGH: You saw anchoring at that point? MR. ELAKMAN: No, the anchoring was on the outside. MR. TINKI.EPAUGH: Okay. The box itself where you're saying it was crushed, could you tell me the thickness of that box, the material used? MR. ELAKMAN: I didn't say the box was crushed, the stucco band -- MR. TINKI.EPAUGH: Right. MR. ELAKMAN: -- which is a bit over a half inch. I didn't accurately measure it. MR. TINKI.EPAUGH: But I'm just trying to make sure. You're saying here the stucco band is crushed? MR. ELAKMAN: At the top of the stucco band, yes. MR. TINKLEPAUGH: Behind the box? MR. ELAKMAN: Yes, sir. MR. TINKI.EPAUGH: But there's no anchors at that point; the anchors are on each end-- MR. ELAKMAN: Correct. MR. TINKI.EPAUGH: -- which I know. I'm just wondering, the Page 65 March 17, 2004 thickness of the material at that point is a guesstimate of 032 aluminum, and you're saying that that aluminum has crushed the stucco band at that point. Is that -- I'm asking that as a question. MR. ELAKMAN: I -- the stucco band is crushed. The box is mounted on top of it. The fasteners are at the very outside. Even though it may be 032 aluminum, it does have bends in it which strengthens it. Yes, that is what crushed it. I should say that's what appears to have crushed it. I wasn't there to watch them install it and tighten it. However, it makes sense that's what happened. You have to understand that stucco is a very brittle and fairly thin application over wire lath over the plywood. And when you pull tight on something like that where you fasten it into the concrete at the edges, it can do some serious damage. MR. T1NKLEPAUGH: In relation to the box, I'm trying to remember, I believe the box is roughly about five feet wide by the width of the window. So the anchors that I would have for my box are roughly about two feet from that center point, would you say, two or three feet from the center point? MR. ELAKMAN: Approximately, yes, sir. MR. TINKIJEPAUGH: And from that point, from my understanding, isn't by code the stucco bands roughly three-eighths to half an inch thick of masonry or concrete type material? MR. ELAKMAN: Stucco band? The banding around it, is it MR. TINKLEPAUGH: approximately three -- MR. ELAKMAN: The decorative band, we're talking about? MR. TINKLEPAUGH: It wasn't -- what I'm referring to, it wasn't a foam EFIS, it's an actual stucco band made out of a plastic type of material? MR. ELAKMAN: It's a lath material that is covered with Portland cement stucco. It's not foam. Page 66 March 17, 2004 MR. TINKI~EPAUGH: Other than the crack around the -- or the separation from the band from the actual wood above the window, behind the box other than the anchors on each end, were there any other penetrations through plywood, the stucco, any type of leaks, any other cracking that you saw behind the box? MR. ELAKMAN: Under the box, below it, I took a photo of the penetrations of the screws. And you can see, there's a penetration that's -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What photo are you talking about? MR. ELAKMAN: These are photos that I took. I don't think that they were -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to introduce those, Mr. Zachary? MR. ZACHARY: I think you have a picture of it on E 13. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then that's what we need to know. MR. ELAKMAN: similar location. MR. MR. MR. MR. ZACHARY: ELAKMAN: ZACHARY: ELAKMAN: That's similar, just a different location, but Is that what you're talking about is E 13? No, this is a different photo. Okay. When did you take that photograph? On the day that I did this inspection. believe it was the 8th of October. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Does that accurately represent the building and what you saw? MR. ELAKMAN: It's an unretouched photograph, yes, sir. MR. ZACHARY: I'm going to have this marked as County C. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I need a motion to introduce another photo, Exhibit C. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. MS. KELLER: Second, Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) Page 67 March 17, 2004~ CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, I'm going to tell everybody, we've heard one witness and we spent an hour on this case. We need to move along. We're not going to sit here till 2:00 or 3:00 this afternoon. So you're going to get a chance to present your case, and -- but I just want everyone, let's move it faster. And let's don't have redundant questions. MR. TINKIJEPAUGH: I guess my last question would be -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What are we doing with this photo? It's been entered. Tell me why it was entered. MR. ELAKMAN: It shows a fastener that penetrates the wall, and it has a bit of caulking around it. And then there's another drilled hole just above that. They obviously either drilled before and either didn't use or the fastener might not have grabbed. I don't know why. But there's another hole that was drilled in the wall and not caulked directly above it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. ' MR. ELAKMAN: There are other fasteners that weren't caulked. I think you already have photos of those. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have pictures of those. Okay, your question again? MR. TINKI.EPAUGH: Referring to this picture, is this hole to the left or the right of the window? I'm just trying to place it where it should be. MR. ELAKMAN: Let's see, that was -- I believe it's on the right side of the box. I'm not certain, I'd have to look -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you sure of that? MR. ELAKMAN: I'd have to look at the photo again. MR. JOSLIN: It appears to be the same picture as E 14. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One at a time, please. You think it's the same picture as E 147 MR. JOSLIN: Page E 14, right, on the left-hand side of the page. It's like that view. Page 68 March 17, 2004 MR. ELAKMAN: That would make it -- if it's the same view as that, it would make it the left side. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Left side from the outside? MR. ELAKMAN: Yes, sir, facing it from the outside. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And the water we saw coming in the house, we saw it on the left -- other side on the inside, which would be pretty much about this same point. So I don't even know -- except for just a general reference, I understand what you're saying. Okay, any other questions? MR. TINKLEPAUGH: Basic -- where you're saying the separation was above the arch of the window, is it possible that that crushed stucco was existing before we put the box up? MR. ELAKMAN: If there was a crushed stucco in an opening like that, it would have leaked before the box was put there, but I don't know, I wasn't there before the box was put on. MR. TINKIJEPAUGH: My last question was, you had said that you had done inspections, I gather, for the Clermont before. Did you -- were you -- have you ever inspected for leakage at Mr. Mattheis's unit before? MR. ELAKMAN: I don't remember that I was ever at that unit before, no, sir. MR. TINKIJEPAUGH: All right. That's it. MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. NEALE: I've just been advised by Mr. Zachary that Mr. Vincent would like to meet with Mr. Mattheis, Mr. Zachary, and I'll also go outside for a few minutes to potentially -- to discuss the matters related to this and potentially settle this matter. So with the pleasure of the board, if we could have about a 15-minute break to meet outside and then we'll see if we can come back with a resolution. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I quite honestly -- whoa, whoa, whoa. This always happens. We get all the way up to hearing a board Page 69 March 17, 2004 meeting and then someone gets a feeling about how things are going, and they want to settle something that maybe should have been settled before. MR. NEALE: It happens in court all the time, too, though. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I know, but we're in this case. Take your chances. MR. NEALE: I think the parties -- I would recommend to the board that the parties be given the opportunity to come to a resolution, other than -- MR. LLOYD: I know it's irritating, but -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to let the board make a motion if they want to do that. You all want to take a break and let them talk? MR. LLOYD: I make a motion that we allow the two parties to come together for 10 minutes. MR. BLUM: Could I ask a question as a neophyte? I agree with you 100 percent. Why exactly are -- are we here to decide guilt or innocence? Are we here to decide penalty? Are we here to decide a possible license infraction or any or all of the above? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All of the above. MR. LLOYD: All of the above. MR. BLUM: So potentially whatever agreement may or may not be reached in private still will not affect any or all of our findings? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe? MR. NEALE: However, since the county is the complainant in this matter, if the county decides to withdraw the complaint because of an agreement reached, then the board's -- has no case to deal with anymore. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Got a motion. I'm probably out of order. MR. JOSLIN: I can understand your feelings. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got a motion, do I have a second? Page 70 March 17, 2004 MR. JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. BESWICK: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. LLOYD: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. BLUM: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: (A recess was taken.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? Opposed? Aye. Go meet. Ten minutes. Call back to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board. Mr. Zachary? MR. ZACHARY: I believe we saved us some time here, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: I can report on the results of the discussions. It appears that the parties have reached a mutually acceptable resolution. The resolution which they have reached would be that the Rollsecure would repair, under the supervision of Mr. Elakman, the damage in such a way to prevent further water intrusion. Mr. Elakman would supervise that repair and would sign off on it, once it's complete, to certify that it was done in a way that would be -- would resolve the issue. Further, Rollsecure will pay to Mr. Mattheis the sum of $2,800, which will pay for the costs at the condominium association and for the repair of his interior walls. What I would recommend to the board is that this mat -- that that be accepted on the following terms: Which would be that this matter would be continued for a period of 60 days, would not be dismissed, and that within that period of time, evidence would have to be brought Page 71 March 17, 2004 back to county staff that all of the terms of the settlement had been complied with; should they all be complied with, then this matter would be dismissed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do we have to continue to waste our time to do an order of the board and everything else? MR. NEALE: No, no. What -- all that would be required is the board to make a motion to continue on those terms and conditions with the proviso that it would then be dismissed, should the matter be -- frankly, that the county's complaint would be withdrawn, as opposed to the matter being dismissed. County's complaint would be withdrawn upon that-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So we need no motion or anything? MR. NEALE: Well, we need a motion. We need a motion to, to accept this as a continuance, because since the matter still remains active until such time as the compliance with the settlement agreement is done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sixty days? MR. NEALE: Sixty days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a motion to continue this for 60 days? MR. JOSLIN: I'll make that motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MR. GUITE': I'll second, Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a comment. As you probably knew I would, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: Oh, I knew that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Talk about bulls in a closet. I mean, condos, everyone knows condos at best have quarter inch or three-eighths stucco with painted water for waterproofing, because everything went to the low bid. All stucco walls in any condo are a Page 72 March 17, 2004 nightmare until the association does them correctly. At the same time, I look over here. You need to be embarrassed for letting this come before this board. Because there's no excuse for it coming before this board. When you ask an owner to put up a bond two and a half times of what the contract was, instead of just taking care of the problem, and then you're getting ready to produce a letter to me from someone who says he's some kind of engineer that you don't have to caulk a Tapcon screw that goes into concrete block, that was going to go about as far as the bottom of the ocean with me. Go take care of this thing. We don't want to see you back here. Okay? Reports? Do we have any? MR. BARTOE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pardon me? MR. BARTOE: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next meeting date is Wednesday, April 21st, first day after Spring, or the second day of Spring. Everybody -- anybody have any conflicts? Okay. MR. BLUM: Not that I know of. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a motion to adjourn? MR. JOSLIN: So moved. MR. LLOYD: Lloyd, second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We are adjourned. Thanks, folks. Page 73 March 17, 2004 There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11'35 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, Chairman These minutes approved by the Board on as presented or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. BY CHERIE NOTTINGHAM Page 74