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PVAC Minutes 03/10/2004 RMarch 10, 2004 Public Vehicle Advisory Committee Development Services Center 2800 North Horseshoe Drive Conference Room A 9:30 A.M. March 10, 2004 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Public Vehicle Advisory Committee, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:30 p.m., in REGULAR SESSION at 2800 North Horseshoe Drive, Conference Room A, Naples, Florida, with the following members present: Present: Bill Csogi Allen Walburn Dan Shriner Staff: Tom Palmer, Attorney Michelle Arnold Janet Powers John Marsh Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY PUBLIC VEHICLE ADVISORY COMMITTEE Meeting~ March 10, 2004 9:30 AM Collier County Community Development Services Buildin~ 2800 N. Horseshoe Naples, FL 34104 Conference Room A in Code Enforcement ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. PLEASE ENSURE ALL PAGERS AND CELL PHONES ARE OFF OR IN A QUIET POSITION. Regular Meeting 1. Roll Call 2. Additions or Deletions 3. Approval of Agenda Approval of Minutes: January 5, 2004 5. Notices MedexOne has ceased operation. Assets taken over by Cabulance Robert Hayden, owner of Yellow Cab of Naples Inc. certificate #99-20 which carries with it a sub-certificate for Airport Connection, has sold the taxi business to Dale Schultheis. Mr. Hayden will be requesting a separate certificate for the operation of Airport Connection. 6. NEW BUSINESS~ LEREY LIMOUSINE SERVICE - Cedric Ramirez BIG SHOTZ - Dorothy Gill TENTATIVE, Airport Connection 7. Discussion, CTO's and decals issued. Majority of companies adhered to the scheduled appointment dates or called in to re-schedule. Was handled well in an organized way. Staff strict with paperwork and requirements from CTO owners. Complimented by several owners for efficiency. Two companies yet to renew their CTO - Maximum Limo and Patron Letters have been mailed to these companies for failure to renew CTO and a deadline date provided to reapply. 8. Public Speakers: 9. Hearing 10.Old Business il.Complaint Report 12.Announcements None Next meeting tentatively scheduled for Monday, April 5, 2004 March 10, 2004 The Collier County Public Vehicle Advisory Committee meeting was called to order by Dan Shriner, March 10, 2004 at 9:37 a.m. I. ROLL CALL / ATTENDANCE Roll was called and a quorum of three was established. Present: Absent: absent. Bill Csogi, Allen Walburn, Dan Shriner, Tom Palmer, Attorney; Michelle Arnold, Janet Powers, John Marsh No Committee members or staff were noted as II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS Janet Powers added discussion regarding Atlantis Transportation Corporation. Ms. Powers distributed the application packets for Atlantis Transportation Corporation to the committee. The agenda has listed this topic as tentative. Dan Shriner questioned whether Atlantis Transportation Corporation had been noticed for this meeting. Mr. Shriner stated that he did not want to discuss any matter that has not been noticed to attend. III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: January 5, 2004 January 5, 2004 meeting minutes were approved. NOTICES MedexOne has ceased operation. Assets taken over by Cabulance. Michelle Arnold stated that this is just notification and no action is requested at this point. Page 2 March 10, 2004 Janet Powers stated that this is a simple transfer. MedexOne has a certificate to operate and took over Cabulance. There is no longer a certificate to operate for Cabulance. Dan Shriner questioned if there were any vehicles in this exchange or financial issues, or anything that the committee should know about. Mr. Shriner questioned telephones and bank accounts as well. Janet Powers stated not to her knowledge. Dan Shriner asked if there was any action for the committee, or if the committee was just to take notice. Janet Powers repeated that this was just a notification to the committee. Dan Shriner asked if it would be noted in the file that this one is closed and the other one has taken over. Janet Powers - it has been noted. MedexOne was existing certificate to operate in good standing and they renewed the vehicles that were formerly under Cabulance under their own. Dan Shriner - don't we vote on that also? Janet Powers repeated that this was just a notice. Robert Hayden, owner of Yellow Cab of Naples Inc. certificate # 99-20 which carries with it a sub-certificate for Airport Connection, has sold the taxi business to Dale Schuttheis. Mr. Hayden will be requesting a separate certificate for the operation of Airport Connection. Dan Shriner looked at Robert Hayden and stated that he presumed he was Mr. Hayden. Robert Itayden - yes sir. Dan Shriner - We just got your packet, I guess. So we're going to look over that. And you're putting it under The Atlantis Transportation Corporation? Michelle Arnold - that is just again like the prior item, a notice to the Board. To give you all information as change of ownership, which they're required to do anyway. I don't believe that requires the Board's action on this particular agenda item. Janet Powers added that there are background checks on these people included in the packets. Mr. Hayden wants to not have a sub certificate; he is Page 3 March 10, 2004 looking for a full certificate for Atlantis Transportation Corporation, dba Airport Connection. It was asked if the board was being asked for a separate certificate to operate for Atlantis Transportation Corporation dba Airport Connection. Mkhelle Arnold confirmed and repeated that item under notices is just to notify the board of the changes that are occurring. It was added on the Agenda, under New Business, the Atlantis Transportation Corporation Certificate to Operate Application. Dan Shriner stated that he did not see an application. Does he need an application? Janet Powers clarified that the top page of the packet, at the time that this transaction was happening, there was a "Main" Certificate for Yellow Cab, and a sub certificate for Airport Connection. They were renewed as such during the renewal period and Mr. Hayden is requesting a stand-alone certificate at this time. All the paperwork is on file? The application, the background check, credit report, all that is on file currently and so we're taking this amended insurance certificate and applying that to the personal documents that were previously approved. Janet Powers confirmed this. Michelle Arnold requested that the board follow the agenda. The board is talking about an application at this point, and the meeting is not at that point on the agenda. That portion of it was just a notification. All the information, deficiencies or adequacies of the Atlantis Transportation Corporation application can be discussed at the time that Atlantis Transportation Corporation is mentioned in the agenda. Dan Shriner - stated that he could see what Ms. Arnold was saying, but this notification should just be moved right in to this. These two items should be handled at the same time. Michelle Arnold again stated that there is no action required on an application. This is just information to the Board. Allen Walburn - we already have it here. If all the information is here, there is no reason why we can't just vote on it and clear it up right now, instead of rehashing all this fifteen minutes from now. Page 4 March 10, 2004 Dan Shriner - Allen, I absolutely agree with you on this. The staff has taken a position on it. It is not exactly what we're thinking, but here is what we are going to do with this: We're going to get Big Shots out of here. We're going to get this other gentleman out of here and then we'll move this application for the last one. It's going to take a little longer, but that what I'm suggesting that we do there. But all of this will be done in about thirty minutes. Allen Walburn - I was going to make a motion to approve this based on what the staff's already represented. I'm going to make a motion that we approve it right now and not have a long, drawn-out discussion about it because the County Attorney and Director of Code Enforcement have both stipulated that the application has been completed and there is nothing that I see that needs to be discussed. Tom Palmer, County Attorney - Let me say that I didn't stipulate to anything. I asked a question as to whether or not that stuff was a matter of record. I didn't stipulate to anything. I don't know what the records say. Allen Walburn - Let me rephrase that then. Ms. Powers then represented that we do not have a completed application on hand, but that we do have one file that will complete the process. Janet Powers showed Mr. Walburn a document and stated that was the application. So if he's already got his sub certificate, why would I require another? Michelle Arnold - I think that what they're saying, Janet, is we're not seeing the checklist like everybody's application. What we've said is that, that information is in the file and that if the board wants to see all the information, then what I can do is in the interim have staff copy that for the board so that they have a copy. Allen Walburn - I'm willing to take your word for it, if you have it. I just don't want to approve something and then somebody say, "Well we didn't have this." Tom Palmer - One of the points that's assumed, that hasn't been stated on the record is that the information for a certificate is the equal to the information for a sub certificate. If in fact, they're equal, then we should have on record what is necessary, and we don't have to do it redundantly. And the ordinance says, it expressly says that if you've already got the information in the file, you don't have to ask for it a second time. In fact, the sub certificate holder, or certificate holder have an affirmative obligation to notify staff if there is any substantive change in that information, without being requested. We haven't received any changes, I suppose, about any significant matters, Page 5 March 10, 2004 therefore they would follow that the information that we need to approve this or separate into two certificates is in the file. Is that right? Janet Powers - That is correct. Tom Palmer- Okay, that's fine Allen Walburn - That is my position, and so I'm making a motion that we approve it because it has already been done and its redundant to even discuss it a second time. Its already been approved. Tom Palmer - Its not redundant in that we've established the facts that I just asked about. Allen Walburn - Exactly. The facts are the same and we've already approved the facts, so I'm just going to make a motion that we approve it right now, and not have to rehash it to add nausea. Dan Shriner - Just one minute though, because he is saying that he sold his whole certificate, and his sub certificate cannot stand alone in County Ordinance. So he needs to get a new CTO. Allen Walburn - That's what we're approving Dan. It's my understanding that's what we're approving is a new CTO, correct? And my motion is to approve a CTO. Tom Palmer - A full CTO, in lieu of a past sub certificate. Allen Walburn - That's what we're being asked to approve, the documents are here. I made a motion to approve it. Dan Shriner - But you'd have to take a look at that this application here to approve it. Janet Powers - looked at Bill Csogi and asked if he would second that. Bill Csogi - No I don't want to second that. I want to go along with how the agenda is and get to it. Let's do that. Allen Walburn - Let me ask what possible thing could be discussed that is legitimate for this board to discuss about this application. I mean I don't have any interest one-way or the other whether this application is approved or not, but the fact of the matter is the man has been approved. All we're doing is changing him from a level of sub certificate to Certificate holder. The threshold to get either is the same. He's not anything any different to my understanding of the regulations, then he would to get the sub certificate, so Page 6 March 10, 2004 there's nothing for us to debate, except for philosophy and it has nothing to do with this man's application. Now, Maybe I'm wrong. Dan Shriner - If the board wants to, they can certainly pass this matter at this time, and there's no necessity to wait until we take another agenda item before you vote substantly on this matter. Bill Csogi - Yeah, well it's your argument. It's up to him whether he wants to push it back up to the front. Allen Walburn - I just thought we could do it now and get it over with, instead of start over and rehash all the same facts over again. Bill Csogi - I understand, but you're not the Chair. It's up to the Chair to deal with it. Allen Walburn - I understand, but I made a motion to approve. It's not going to get approved, then oh well. Dan Shriner - To approve the application or to approve this statement here? Allen Walburn - What statement are you talking about? Bill Csogi explained to Dan Shriner that Allen Walburn has made a motion to move this up, forward and just approve it. Allen Walburn - To approve the CTO, as its been stipulated by the staff. They've completed their application. They have all the paperwork in file. It's like having a second hearing on something. We've already had the hearing, we voted the man a sub certificate, now he's just asking to have it upgraded and there is no threshold to be met that hasn't already been previously established. So to come back now, and find something that's deficient shows that we didn't do our job the first time. It's like having a second hearing and the first one we found the people innocent and the second one, now we're going to come back and find them guilty. Tom Palmer - It's more than that. It assumes there will be evidence between now and the next five minutes that's going to reverse the decision. Dan Shriner - We just can't look at this at this time. We just can't spend time on this application. I apologize. I hope at the end of the meeting you'll understand why that happened, why this is happening this way. VI. NEW BUSINESS Page 7 March 10, 2004 Lerey Limousine Service - Cederic Ramirez Dan Shriner asked for Mr. Ramirez to be sworn in. Tom Palmer swore in Mr. Ramirez. Michelle Arnold asked Janet Powers if Mr. Ramirez had all of his information on the checklist. Bill Csogi stated that he looked through the packet the other night and found everything in it to be complete. Motion to approve. Allen Walburn - second Dan Shriner - The motion has been first and seconded. We need to vote on this. Motion approved. Big Shotz -Dorothy Gill Bill Csogi - held up a document and asked Janet Powers if that was the only one that was missing from the packet. Janet Powers - yes. Bill Csogi - I also looked through this the other day and I found that this was the only item we were missing. Motion to approve. Allen Walburn - second Dan Shriner - The motion has been first and seconded. We need to vote on this. Motion approved. Tentative: Naples Concierge Airport Connection Dan Shriner asked Mr. Hayden a question that was not audible on the recording. Mr. Hayden's response was Bob, the same guy you spoke to on the phone. Page 8 March 1 O, 2004 Dan Shriner - Yeah, I talked to you. Ok. Great. Michelle Arnold - Again, I just want to say if any of the board members are talking the applicants I think you should just note that, disclose that on the record. Tom Palmer - Yeah, if you've had discussions with an applicant, disclose it please. Allen Walbnrn - I've had no contact with the applicant. Bill Csogi - none here. Dan Shriner - Is this for now, or will it be at another (inaudible). Yes, I've talked with Mr. Hayden. Mr. Hayden - May I say something? Michelle Arnold - yes Mr. Hayden - Ever since I bought Mr. Baisley's company, I've met with the County and I told them that we're in business here for 35 years, never had an IRS audit, never was litigated or (inaudible) for a business. Came into this, worked for Russ for two years, had a background check, don't even have a parking ticket to my name and bought Baisley's company under good faith. Did everything that I though that was under good faith. I've attended every meeting that has happened. Sit and looked every one of you in the eyes, told the County I understand there's two people's rules I play by here. That's yours and the airport's. And I've done both. This makes my third meeting, which all of them haven't been meetings because of things that are way beyond my control, ties up a lot of my business time. I've provided you everything, including my corporation of good standing within the State; my corporation is only 79 days old. I don't know why, sir, you called me the other day. I thought business of this matter was to be conducted in this room. Anytime I wanted to conduct, I've come to this building and I didn't know whether to take it as threatening or helpful or whatever. But I sure feel like I'm getting yanked around here, because I'm here to do what's right, and not what's wrong. And I do it, not on the telephone, not behind his back or his back or her back or his back. What your phone call meant the other day to me, really threw me a curve ball. And I didn't appreciate it. Dan Shriner - Can I ask what the context of the phone call was about? Page 9 March 10, 2004 Mr. Itayden - It was about several things. What do I have on file? Number one, I had on file everything it took to put the damn stickers on my cars. Excuse my language. Tom Palmer - He asked you for information, over the phone, pertaining to your application? Mr. Itayden - Yes, Sir. And he asked me about what I was doing and I just didn't appreciate it, because I thought that is what these meetings are here for and I've attended each and every one of them. And I've taken a lot of my time to do it. And I've done it totally truthful, totally honest. My application is filled out to the fullest. My insurance is in good standing. My corporation within the State is in good standing. All my vehicles are permitted. I've done everything this County's asked me to do. And for somebody of the magnitude of him to make phone calls to me and to ask me anything, I think is totally out of bounds. So, I'm just asking for some judicial relief here. So, I can on and run a business, instead of being in these meetings every month. Tom Palmer - Well what issue is on the table today within we brought this application. It hasn't been explained to me. Michelle Arnold - It's a CTO. Allen Walburn - no issue. Tom Palmer - Is he applying for a CTO? What is it? Janet Powers - it is a full certificate. Tom Palmer - Is that what the board is addressing today, is the approval? Janet Powers - correct Tom Palmer - is there anything further about it? Bill Csogi - The only sheet that I see missing is the one with the manager's. Everybody has to do with running the business; it's all going to stay the same. There's no new managers? Mr. Hayden - I'm it. Bill Csogi - Ok, that's the only sheet that I saw missing. If everything else stayed the same, I make the motion we approve. Allen Walburn - I second. Page 10 March 10, 2004 Dan Shriner - Wait a minute. He's made a comment here. He's talking to me directly. Allen Walburn - No, there's a motion on the floor that you need to deal with now. Dan Shriner - Do we approve this? Allen Walburn - he made a motion to approve. I seconded. Dan Shriner - Ok, All in favor say" I." Allen Walburn and Bill Csogi - I Dan Shriner - All opposed say" I." Dan Shriner -" I ." Tom Palmer - Why are you opposing this? Please articulate the reasons. Dan Shriner - I wanted to, but they started this other process. Let me just address this man's comment. When I got the packet on Friday Evening, at that point I had to know more about the information about the packet and the application. So I called the gentleman after we had the workshop. Mr. Hayden - that packet was turned in back when I bought Yellow Cab and Airport Connection. The only thing that wasn't in my packet was the Certificate of Good Standing within the State and the reason that wasn't was because (inaudible, interrupted by Attorney Tom Palmer) Tom Palmer - I would like to ask if someone is going to vote no on this application, to please articulate the reason for the negative vote. Dan Shriner - Because he's asking to remove a separate full certificate. He sold off Yellow Cab and the stickers are still on Yellow Cab, in his name, but he sold it off. Janet Powers - excuse me, can you say that again? Tom Palmer - Would you address that statement? We're talking about substantive rights here, a man who wants to go and operate a business and we cannot turn it down for arbitrary and capricious reasons. Dan Shriner - Well it's not. When he sold Yellow Cab, he should have taken his stickers off. Yellow Cab doesn't have a CTO, because he sold Yellow Cab. It says right in the Ordinance that if you sell it, it voids the CTO. Page 11 March 10, 2004 Tom Palmer - He is in here today to get the CTO he needs. Dan Shriner - And before we give him another CTO, we need to get Janet Powers - Where does the Ordinance say Tom Palmer - I don't know what he is talking about. Allen Walburn - I don't either, but you're talking about Yellow Cab. He has nothing to do with Yellow Cab. He sold it. That's their responsibility to get their own CTO. Dan Shriner -No, but it's his responsibility to take his stickers off those cars. Allen Walburn - Well that's a Code Enforcement issue, that's not what this board is for. Janet Powers - Those stickers were not issued in the name of Bob Hayden. They were issued to Dale Schultheis, during the renewal period. Which is why I gave notice in the January meeting that that business has been sold to Mr. Schultheis. The only paper pending for Mr. Schultheis and Yellow Cab of Naples is the Occupational License, only because of a fire inspection, which is scheduled to my knowledge. Dan Shriner - Well, how did he get the stickers if he didn't file for a CTO? Michelle Arnold - There was a CTO already. Janet Powers - There was a certificate 99-20 for Yellow Cab that he purchased. Dan Shriner - They don't trade. Bill Csogi - Yes they do, he did it all at the last meeting. Dan Shriner - Well, that wasn't right, that probably wasn't correct either. Allen Walburn - Yeah, but you know, that's just not this board's responsibility to be an investigative force. Bill Csogi - It's not a transfer. He bought the business. He bought everything, and he was approved. Tom Palmer - Let's stick with the purpose of these stickers. The purpose of these stickers are so that the County knows what cars have what stickers and Page 12 March 10, 2004 who is responsible for the fact that those cars are on the road. Do we have that information? Janet Powers - We do. Tom Palmer - Have we always had that information? Janet Powers - Yes Tom Palmer - These cars have not been blind objects going around the road and we don't know who is responsible for them? Janet Powers - No sir. Tom Palmer - I don't see an issue. Allen Walburn - I don't either. Bill Csogi - We handled all this last meeting. Allen Walburn - Yep. Bill Csogi - We approved it. Allen Walburn - Let's move on to the next topic, please. Michelle Arnold - This is a different filing. Mr. Hayden - Excuse me. Am I approved? Allen Walburn - Yes, you're approved. Bill Csogi- No, hold on, not yet. We have two that have voted Yea and one that voted Nay. When he appalled. He was asking for comment on his Nay vote, but we still need to approve it. Allen Walburn - As far as I was concerned, we voted. Two to One. Bill Csogi - Well, Tom is he done with his comment, so we can vote. Tom Palmer - No, I don't know that, and I can't state because I don't remember the Ordinance. Normally if you have you have a five-member board, and there are only three members present, it requires an affirmative vote with three members. Most decisions cannot be made by a two-member vote on a three-member quorum. Page 13 March 10, 2004 Allen Walburn - If that's the case, then I'm going to move that we adjourn until we have a full membership here. Dan Shriner - Well, that's it. I'm gone. I'm out of here. Tom Palmer - You're not going to vote for this? Dan Shriner- No sir. Tom Palmer - All right, I tell you what we're going to do, I would go ahead and operate your business, until such time as this matter has come up, and assume yourself tentatively approved. Because this board has no evidence that you're doing anything improper. And on the factual basis here, there is no basis to have any attempt to stop you or prohibit what you are doing. It would be arbitrary and capricious to do this. Dan Shriner - I'm going. Janet Powers - We're not done. Dan Shriner - Meetings adjourned. Tom Palmer - And as far as I'm concerned, you are in business until you hear from a member above this board that you are not in business. Janet Powers - We're not done. Mr. Hayden - So will I need to attend a fourth meeting? Tom Palmer - No, you're not going to have to attend anything, unless you are noticed to attend on our initiative. Mr. Itayden - Thank you very much. Allen Walburn - And based on the records that we have here, unless there is something that we don't know, there is no way that we would. Tom Palmer - There is no factual basis on which to turn your application down. Mr. Itayden - I've done nothing. I don't even have a parking ticket. Tom Palmer - I understand. Allen Walbtlrn - So as far as I'm concerned, you've been voted on. You're approved. Page 14 March 10, 2004 Tom Palmer - Now, nobody on this board is insinuating in anyway that you've done anything improper. Mr. Hayden - The one thing that I don't understand is the phone calls on side. That really blew me away. Tom Palmer - Well, we'll handle that. That's an internal problem. We'll handle that. Mr. Hayden - That's very internal, as far as I'm concerned, because it made me feel threatened. I didn't understand the cause of it and I think it's gross negligence on his part to conduct business over a cell phone instead of this office. Tom Palmer - These are lay people volunteers. And sometimes they don't quite understand the functionality of their positions and what it means to be calling applicants on the phone directly, instead of calling staff and getting the information through staff, which is the proper thing to do. Michelle Arnold - And that was mentioned at the last meeting. Tom Palmer - I think it has been mentioned several times. Mr. Itayden - Everything that I've had has been in here since (inaudible, interrupted by Tom Palmer) Tom Palmer - And I apologize, and I can understand that you might be intimidated by a call. It's like having a trial and the judge calls you up and starts asking you questions about your case. Mr. Itayden - Yes sir. Thank you. Dan Shriner - It's not nearly the same Tom. Tom Palmer - Don't tell me what it is. Dan Shriner - I have attorneys too. Michelle Arnold, Janet Powers, and Bill Csogi all try to get Dan Shriner's attention. Bill Csogi - Are you leaving? Michelle Arnold - Are you leaving? Page 15 March 1 O, 2004 Dan Shriner- Meeting's adjourned. Janet Powers - You can't adjourn like that. Tom Palmer - Listen, I'm going to make a recommendation that the board recommend that this man be removed from this board for cause. Michelle Arnold - Yes, and I would support that. Dan Shriner - That's just perfect. Janet Powers - Absolutely. Dan Shriner - hey, if you can't pull it out of the Ordinances, if you can't do the right facts, this board does not exist. Tom Palmer - This board exists. You don't exist on this board as far as I'm concerned. And I'm going to make a recommendation that this matter be agenda on the Board of County Commissioners, the next meeting. This is outrageous. Michelle Arnold - It is outrageous. Allen Walburn - I agree. Well, I just thought that it was totally inappropriate to interrogate an applicant. Tom Palmer - It is illegal for a member of a quasar-judicial board to call up an applicant. It's like a judge calling up somebody, they come over to the judge, and ex-partying outside of his own attorney or other side of the case. And staff knew nothing about anything. The reason a member is supposed to call staff is because staff, you can talk to staff, but you can't ex-party applicants, particularly at the initiative of the board member. Having the board member called by some uninformed applicant, is one thing, but the board members are to say immediately, "I cannot talk to you." Allen Walburn - And then use the information to rob from him. Tom Palmer - Now there is a difference between what are called legislative matters and quasar-judicial matters. People can lobby legislative matters. That would be like adopting a rule, changing the Ordinance. But we're talking about a substantive decision on a particular case, and this case is whether a man can or cannot operate his business, and it was highly improper. Worse than that, I think that he knew, actually knew, and if he didn't know, he should've known not to do this. Page 16 March 10, 2004 Bill Csogi - Wasn't everybody supposed to attend that Sunshine Workshop a year or two ago? Tom Palmer - I think they did. Micheile Arnold - But we talked about it, as recent as in last meeting. Bill Csogi - Exactly. Allen Walburn - It just seems to me that certain members of this board, from time to time, think that they're investigators, instead of board members. And if you want to investigative information, you go to the staff. Tom Palmer - That's right. And in fact the law is clear, that when you're a member of a board like this, like a member of Code Enforcement Board, you are not allowed to do what is a view. That is go out and actually look at the property, which is a subject of something that is coming to you. You base your judgment on evidence that is presented to you at the hearing. Allen Walburn - Exactly, and that's what we're, that's the reason. I mean we had the evidence here. That's why I said vote to approve it, because there is no evidence that could be derived. Tom Palmer - Well I, up until about a month ago, I always thought that this man acted at least partially reasonable, but now I believe that what is going on, and this is not the only incident. Michelle knows about others, is that, this is not in the public interest. Mr. Hayden - May I say something? I stepped out of here to get away from all that. I just got some more in the parking lot, so I stepped back in. And there is such a thing as the Sunshine Law. Tom Palmer - Well, yes exactly. And we've discussed this and this board has gone to a seminar on it and this is not the only incident we've had here and as I say, nobody on this board had any knowledge that any member of this board was calling and ex-partying applicants in quasar judicial matters, in which this is one. Mr. Itayden - I tell you that it, when it was brought up, I had one piece of information that not in my packet and that was my Certificate in Good Standing as a Corporation, reason being is I applied for that over the Christmas Holidays, and as soon as I brought it to Janet, I asked why this gentleman was calling me. Page 17 March 10, 2004 Tom Palmer - Look, the appropriate thing for him to do, and he should know this, would be, is if he has any questions about an application, to contact the staff. Mr. Itayden - That's what I told him. I said everything I have is on file, everything. You've got everything except for my first-bom son. I've been to more meetings here than most of the board members. Tom Palmer - Well that's because we've had unforeseen quorum problems, not because of arbitrary items. Mr. Hayden - I'm sorry. Tom Palmer - No, I don't think, I think it's more than what's going on here. Allen Walburn - But, you're approved now. Tom Palmer - We're a little upset too. When we get another board, what I would recommend is, we just do a summary affirmation of this. Allen Walburn - I think that we ought to pass out boxing gloves and whoever can stand once they get through the front door, can be approved. Bill Csogi - Tom, before you take off, so when the Commissioners, we're going to get some new board members? Michelle Arnold - yeah, we are going to respond to their memo, we got it last week, and it probably will be on the next agenda which is, they had a meeting yesterday, which is two weeks from then. Bill Csogi - Now, assuming that we get new board members, and we've got five or seven people that show up at the next meeting, what if Dan shows up? Tom Palmer - I talked to Michelle about that, if he shows up, they can elect a new chairman. You're not vested in the position of Chairman. Just because you've been appointed, doesn't mean you've got a right to keep that position for some period. Janet Powers -No, I think we should ask the Board to remove him. Tom Palmer - Yeah, I do too. This is getting to be a little bit too much. This is getting to be an aggravation for you and me. Janet Powers - And have them do it at the same meeting, so that they appoint somebody else, yes. Page 18 March 10, 2004 Tom Palmer - I tell you what I would do. I would point out in the Executive Summary that's going to the board, that they first remove him, in fact this won't be on the consent agenda, because they've got to make choices, that the first order of business is to remove him and they state the reasons why, and the second thing is therefore if he is removed, there will be "x" number of seats available and they need to be one of this category, and two of this category or two and one, whatever it is. And make it clear; in plain English that the Board understands without any equivocation what it is they're doing. And I have no doubt, I can't speak for them, but I have no doubt that they will do exactly as is recommended by the staff. Bill Csogi - So we've got enough applications to fill three seats. Tom Palmer - We have more than enough. Bill Csogi - So then that should take care of itself?. Tom Palmer - So we can get it in the Agenda, in fact, I would make it out, start out that the Agenda, most important item of consideration is the removal of member, so that that jumps out at them right away, before they consider the appointees. Janet Powers - Would I go into detail? Tom Palmer - I would go into some detail. Michelle Arnold - We'll get some information from you in respect of this. Tom Palmer - Yeah, I would be happy to review it. We're rtmning out against a timeline. What is the drop-dead date on the next agenda? This Friday? Michelle Arnold - It probably was Monday. Janet Powers - I do believe it was the eighth for the twenty-second. Tom Palmer - Well, are you going to be able to get under the wire? Janet Power - Yeah, they should put it on. Tom Palmer - If we can do it, let's get it done today. Normally, I would consider removal of a member of a board last resort and I think we've reached the last resort. Bill Csogi - I agree. Page 19 March 10, 2004 Allen Walburn - I just didn't understand the purpose of what; he wanted to open up a can of worms here that we've already got stipulated facts here from the staff. Tom Palmer - well he's done little things, here, and here, and here that struck me as bizarre, but sort of inconsequential, now they are bizarre and they are consequential. Allen Walburn - But he's wanting to put in information into this hearing that obviously violates the Sunshine Law, that would conceivably poison this application, and its just to me, it just inappropriate. Tom Palmer - Well its not only inappropriate, it's illegal and he is brought in another general observation, is he has in many instances, and I'm sure of it, and a couple of cases have been evidentiary on the record, or a couple of cases has been my strong impression that he considers a lot of evidence that is not presented to this board, and making his decision Allen Walburn - Exactly, and he was fixing to present evidence, in my estimation, that was not germane to this issue, because what we're supposed to be ruling on is what's in these papers, not his actions. Tom Palmer - Well, if he is going to become a witness and testify, he can do that in rare cases, but then he cannot vote on the matter of which he is already become an advocate. I don't think that the reasons for removal should just be absolutely conclusionary. I think you can say things like, on many occasions, and take into consideration, and making decisions evidence not in the record, because I think that can be proven. Bill Csogi - When we have the next meeting, how's the protocol going to be if he shows up at the next meeting? Tom Palmer - Well at the next meeting, if he shows up at protocol the Chair, then if he is removed by the Board of County Commissioners, that is a fact. That is done. If necessary, and I don't know that this is going to be necessary, we'll have the Deputy Sheriff. We'll call the Sheriff. We're not going to put up with this stuff. Janet Powers - We will have a letter from the Board of County Commissioners stating that he is not. Allen Walburn - He won't show up. Tom Palmer - But I'm getting concerned now, and this is not an accusation, it's just an observation, but whether or not he has been subliminarily sabotaging this board for months. Page 20 March 10, 2004 Michelle Arnold - I think he has been, especially based on what I was informed by a Commissioner recently. He was asking the Commissioner to bring the matter up at the meeting yesterday to disband this board. Bill Csogi - unbelievable email that I got. Tom Palmer - Oh I know, it's outrageous. Mr. Hayden - I'll tell you one of the things that he said to me was, "The Board has all of your information." And I said it's been on file ever since day one, and I said that I've been to every one of your meetings. "Well I don't have access to it." And he said, "That Board, the County answers to that Board. We don't answer to the County." And I said I don't need to expand on this sir. I said you need to go see Mrs. Powers. Tom Palmer - Here's what happened and it's an interesting thing, is that in making him Chair, he thinks he's become some kind of little dictator in this world. He's been way over exercising. I mentioned to him, one time, that the Chair has a lot of power, but that even then, the Chair's powers are limited, and the Chair's powers do not, even if the Chair were not a member, I mean calling up applicant and cross examine him on the telephone. Mr. Hayden - Well when you put your lifesavings into something and you're forty-four years old and you've got your lifesavings in something and you've got a guy like that calling you up. The Sunshine Laws are right there and that why I made (inaudible) Tom Palmer - I guarantee you that in no way was this authorized by anybody else affiliated with this county. Mr. Itayden - I appreciate that. Tom Palmer - He's a lay volunteer. Bill Csogi - Also, speaking along those lines, this is a committee. We're the Public Vehicle Advisory Committee, the Collier County Commissioners is a Public Vehicle board, so at any time if you don't like anything that we're doing, you can go in front of your board of Commissions. Mr. Itayden - I have no problem with anybody else sitting here. I just didn't understand the purpose of the phone calls. Tom Palmer - This instance, this was your problem, and generally this is much more of a general problem to us, and we've got to try to solve it. Page 21 March 10, 2004 Mr. Itayden - That's what I've seen, and it's happened out there on the streets. I'm going to say this and I'm going to leave, is this County was leery of the whole situation, maybe not the County, but certain members of this Board were leery of this whole situation of the Yellow Cab and Atlantis Transportation, is you've got probably the two most legitimate operators in this town out of that. Tom Palmer - Well there's been no evidence presented to this board about any misgivings or anything else about either of those entities, so as far as this board is concerned, is an entirely clean slate. Mr. Hayden - If he's standing out here again - yes he's still standing out here. Bill Csogi - Bob, my name is Bill and I've got a repair company in town and I've got, you don't know this, but I've got several of your drivers that come to me and they just say Yellow Cab has changed so much. They are real impressed by you. Tom Palmer - Are we adjourned yet? Has it been decided that there will be, in fact this recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners for removal? Michelle Arnold - yes Janet Powers - Absolutely Allen Walburn - I'll make a motion that we approve that recommendation Tom Palmer - Well actually, I think its pretty well established that that is. Michelle Arnold - It is going to come from staff rather than from the board. Bill Csogi - Are we going to stop at that point and the rest will be included on the next agenda? Michelle Arnold - yes. VII. DISCUSSION CTO's and decals issued. Majority of companies adhered to the scheduled appointment dates or called in to re-schedule. Was handled well in an organized way. Staff strict with paperwork and requirements from CTO owners. Complimented by several owners for efficiency. Page 22 VIII. IX. X. XI. XII. March 10, 2004 Two companies yet to renew their CTO - Maximum Limo and Patron Letters have been mailed to these companies for failure to renew CTO and a deadline date provided to reapply. PUBLIC SPEAKERS HEARING OLD BUSINESS COMPLAINT REPORT None ANNOUNCEMENTS Next meeting Monday, April 5, 2004 There being no further business for the good of the County of Collier, the meeting was adjoumed at 10:16 a.m. Public Vehicle Advisory Committee Chairman, Bill Csogi Page 23