CLB Minutes 02/18/2004 RFebruary 18, 2004
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
Naples, Florida
February 18, 2004
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing
Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business
herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in
Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with
the following members present:
CHAIRMAN:
Les Dickson
David L. Beswick
Richard Joslin
William Lewis
Kenneth Lloyd
ALSO PRESENT:
Thomas Bartoe, Licensing Compliance Officer
Robert Zachary, County Attorney
Patrick Neale, Counsel to the Board
Jim Hoopingamer, Licensing Compliance Officer
Page 1
AGENDA
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
DATE: February 18, 2004
TIME: 9:00 A.M.
W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING
(ADMINISTRATION BUILDING)
COURTHOUSE COMPLEX
ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE
PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM
RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND
EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
I. ROLL CALL
II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS:
III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
DATE: December 17, 2003
DISCUSSION:
Doug Caldwell - Discuss additional testing for Landscaping contractors.
NEW BUSINESS:
Shawn P. Maher - Request to qualify a second company.
Mark R. Lambert - Request to qualify a second company.
Daniel R. Sifrar. - Request to qualify a second company.
Luciano Souza - Request to qualify a second company.
Tobias I. Simmons - Request to qualify a second company
Roger S. Bruttomesso - Request to have Tile & Marble license reinstated without retaking exams
Dennis J. Cox - Request to waive the Business & Law exam for a Painting license.
OLD BUSINESS:
PUBLIC HEARINGS:
Edward Branthoover - Contesting Citation #1968 issued for no roof cleaning license.
Case # 2004-01 - Collier County Contractor Licensing vs Daniel Greene
d/b/a DGCT of Naples, Inc.
Case # 2004-02 - Collier County Contractor Licensing vs Alan J. Vincent
d/b/a Rollsecure Shutters, Inc
REPORTS:
NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, March 17, 2004
VI.
IX.
X.
February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Everybody ready? I'd like to call to
order the monthly meeting of the Collier County Contracting
Licensing Board, today being February 18th, 2004.
For all of you appearing before the board, if you decide to appeal
a decision of this board, you will need a record of the proceedings
pertaining to your case, a verbatim record, which is available to you.
by contacting the court reporter.
I'd like to start with roll call on my right.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Lewis.
MR. BESWICK: Mr. Beswick.
MR. LLOYD: Mr. Lloyd.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson.
We do have four members absent today. We're thrilled we have a
quorum, though. It was shaky for a minute. Additions or deletions, Mr. Bartoe?
MR. BARTOE: Good morning. I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County
Licensing Compliance Officer.
We have a deletion. Under No. 5, discussion, delete that
discussion. Under No.
8, public hearings, Case No. 2004-02 will be postponed until the
March 17th meeting.
And staff has no other additions or deletions.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I need a motion to approve the
agenda as changed. MR. JOSLIN:
MR. LLOYD:
So moved, Joslin.
Second.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Also, gentlemen, if you would look at
the minutes of the last meeting. I assume you've had a time to look
those over. I need a motion to approve the minutes of the December
17th meeting.
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February 18, 2004
MR. LEWIS: So moved.
MR. BESWICK: Second.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Moving along. New business. Shawn
Maher, request to qualify second entity.
Shawn, are you here?
MR. MAHER: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come up
here to this podium. I need for you to state your name. The court
reporter will swear you in.
MR. MAHER: Shawn Maher.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What I need for you to do is tell the
board what company you qualify now, why you're qualifying the
second entity.
MR. MAHER: At present I'm a -- qualify Naples Dock and
Marine, and we have purchased the assets of a company called Marco
Dock. And through the purchase of that, the -- I find the need to
qualify it at the same time.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you have a percentage of
ownership of both, correct?
MR. MAHER: I'm the vice president of Naples Dock and
Marine. I'm employed by --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The Marco Marine?
MR. MAHER: Personally?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
MR. MAHER: It's LLC. Both companies are owned by Naples
Construction Service, Inc., which is owned by Fred Weber, Inc. out of
St. Louis, Missouri.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're just reviewing
your papers real quick.
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February 18, 2004
Just curious, do you have longshoreman's insurance?
MR. MAHER: Yes, sir, we do.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wow. What did it cost you?
MR. MAHER: It's a bargain in the long run.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is it?
MR. MAHER: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: First person I've ever heard say that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've never heard -- you don't know
how many cases we've had over longshoreman's insurance. You're
one of maybe a handful that have it?
MR. MAHER: That's correct. But it is a federal law that you
have it, so it is important.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Uh-huh. Yeah, I had a customer
wanted me to roof a boat dock that's over the waterways. I can't do it.
MR. MAHER: In Collier County, yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Because as soon as I step off
the land, correct, I have to have
the longshoreman's insurance. MR. MAHER: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: Who does the roofing?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I send them to a dock company.
MR. LLOYD: Have there been any concerns lodged against
Marco Dock and Lift?
MR. BARTOE: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody see a credit report?
MR. LLOYD: I don't. I did not see a credit report.
MR. MAHER: Is that on Marco Dock and Lift? You're asking
about a credit report on Marco Dock and Lift?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, the company you qualify
yourself, there is usually one.
MR. MAHER: It's there -- or we usually supply it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Staff have those?
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February 18, 2004
MR. BARTOE: I don't know, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, gentlemen, what we can do is
we can make a motion subject to review of the credit report. It's not in
the packet.
MR. LLOYD: I don't see it.
MR. BESWICK: I don't see it.
MR. JOSLIN: Is this a credit review.'?
MR. NEALE: Yeah, there is a credit report. It's the last -- it's
just in front of the certificate of insurance. It's a three-pager.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've never seen one like this, Mr.
Neale. It's basically just an information sheet, don't you think?
MR. NEALE: No, it's a corporate report. If you look at the
second page down at the bottom, it has the trade information down
there, the trade accounts. High Tide Sales and Marine Lumber.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. JOSLIN: Under those circumstances, I'll make a motion
that we approve the application for a second entity.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have a second?
MR. LLOYD: Lloyd, second.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor.
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You are approved.
What I need for you to understand, and
everyone that's here today under the similar circumstance, all of your
files are here in this room right now. Do not go to contractor licensing
today, because she won't be able to do a thing for you. Go there
tomorrow and she'll be able to take care of it.
MR. MAHER: Yeah, that's fine.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Best of luck to you.
MR. MAHER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mark Lambert, are you present?
MR. LAMBERT: Yes.
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February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come to the podium,
state your name. I need to have you sworn in, sir.
MR. LAMBERT: Mark Lambert.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Same company?
MR. LAMBERT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Qualifying who?
MR. LAMBERT: Presently I qualify Naples Dock and Marine
Services, electrical division.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gotcha. Okay. And you're wanting
to qualify this new company, the electrical division?
MR. LAMBERT: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.'
I sense, staff, no complaints?
MR. BARTOE: No complaints.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Basically the same report.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any questions?
MR. LLOYD: What role will you have in the new entity? He's
the vice president, you'll be what?
MR. LAMBERT: I'll be supervising the electrical work that they
-- I think they presently have been doing their own electrical work,
Naples Dock and Lift. And I'll just be supervising their work.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which is a major issue. We've had, as
you know, several problems with electric work on docks. MR. LAMBERT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Especially on Marco.
MR. LAMBERT: Right.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any further discussion?
MR. JOSLIN: So you have no corporate involvement in this
company?
MR. LAMBERT: No.
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February 18, 2004
MR. JOSLIN: You do realize that your license is in jeopardy
should something happen or something unforeseen happen? MR. LAMBERT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll entertain a motion.
MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we approve the
application, Joslin.
MR. BESWICK: Second, Beswick.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're approved.
Gentlemen, I'd like to thank you first of all for following the
letter of what's required. It makes it easy for us. So wish you well,
both of you.
MR. LAMBERT: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: David (sic) Sifrar. Excuse me if I'm
saying that wrong.
If you would come forward and state your name, I need to have
you sworn in, sir.
MR. SIFRAR: It's Daniel. Probably my handwriting is not too
good.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no, my reading is bad.
MR. SIFRAR: The same is Daniel Sifrar is how it's pronounced.
It makes no sense, but that's how it is. (Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Again, if you'll tell us what you're
doing, what you qualify now, what you want to qualify, and your
reason for it.
MR. SIFRAR: I qualify One Spot to Call, painting concern
presently. I want to qualify my wife's company, One Spot One Call.
And that is -- I want to qualify that for art and faux work, and possible
minority contracts to separate the two companies.
MR. JOSLIN: Art and what did you say?
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February 18, 2004
MR. SIFRAR:
MR. JOSLIN: I got you.
MR. NONNENMACHER:
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. NONNENMACHER:
Faux finish. Specialty finishes.
Ladies and gentlemen?
Yes, sir.
Good morning. For the record, my
name is Bob Nonnenmacher, Contractor Licensing Supervisor.
This particular category that he wants to qualify does not require
a license. It's
considered art. We have no objection if he wishes to continue, but
faux painting and art painting does not require a painting license.
MR. SIFRAR: Well, we also want to go after minority contracts
as well, so --
MR. NONNENMACHER: Okay, I just wanted -- I didn't want
him wasting his time, so --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Personally, I think it's a good move.
MR. LEWIS: Excellent.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Especially the minority aspect of it
and to be separated. I've seen companies do minority work and a
divorce happens and all sorts of problems with the company. MR. SIFRAR: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I was implying nothing, okay?
MR. SIFRAR: As you can see, my wife's a beautiful lady, so
that's not going to happen, if I can avoid it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, you need to hang onto that.
MR. JOSLIN: She turned all red, by the way, too, if you noticed.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody have any questions?
MR. LLOYD: Question, Mr. Bartoe. Any questions about this
first -- One Spot to Call company? MR. BARTOE: Nothing.
MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we approve this
application for One Spot One Call.
MR. LLOYD: Lloyd, second.
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February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor.
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You are approved.
MR. SIFRAR: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Wish you well.
Luciano Souza, are you present?
If you would state your name, I need to have you sworn in.
MR. SOUZA: My name is Luciano Souza.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I pronounced yours correctly, didn't I?
MR. SOUZA: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wow.
Give us a brief history, what you're doing.
MR. SOUZA: Yeah, I'm here to qualify my brother's company,
Genesis Tile, so he can do business here in Collier County. And I'm
the owner of Tile and Interiors Incorporation.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you own Tile and Interiors and
you're qualifying Genesis Tile?
MR. SOUZA: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
now?
MR. SOUZA: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
compliment the staff.
Does your brother work with you
Mr. Nonnenmacher, if you would,
These files are just in perfect order.
MR. NONNENMACHER:
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. SOUZA: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
Yes, sir. Must be the whip.
You have a nice credit report.
You pay your bills.
MR. LLOYD:
brother-- Leandro?
MR. SOUZA:
MR. LLOYD:
What role will you play and what role will your
Leandro.
What role will he play in the
Page 9
February 18, 2004
company?
MR. SOUZA: Actually, I hold 50 percent of the shares, but that's
because I'm required to. I'm not making any profit of his company.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I assume by the certificate that
you're exempting yourselves --
MR. SOUZA: Yeah, I'm--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- under workers' comp.?
MR. SOUZA: Yeah. I'm already exempt. He's getting exempt as
soon as he gets his license.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've been all through that new law,
right? MR. SOUZA:
MR. LEWIS:
MR. SOUZA:
Yes.
Mr. Souza, do you have any helpers?
Actually, I just bought a Workmen's Comp.
insurance yesterday, because I've got four guys are going to work with
me from -- as of yesterday. That's why I just bought insurance.
MR. LEWIS: Make sure you get a copy of that to the licensing
board.
MR. SOUZA: Yes, I asked my agent to fax a
copy to Collier County.
MR. LEWIS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any further questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll entertain a motion, if not.
MR. BESWICK: I make a motion we approve, Beswick.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second?
MR. LEWIS: Second, Lewis.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We wish you well.
MR. SOUZA: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You heard me say that you'll have to
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February 18, 2004
go tomorrow to take care of this.
MR. SOUZA: Tomorrow, yes. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very good.
Tobias Simmons, are you present?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we'll see if he comes in.
Roger Bruttomesso?
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Boy, I'm just shooting in the wind on
that one.
If you would, state your name, Roger?
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: Roger Bruttomesso.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not bad.
I need to have you sworn in.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give us an overview, if you would.
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: Basically I've been a tile contractor for
over 20 years, since '91, in the State of Florida. I made the mistake of
letting my license lapse a couple of years ago. Reason being, I took on
another project and -- tile related. And I basically took from an idea
on a napkin and brought to full market this grout sealing and stain
applicator. That pretty much took up most of my time.
Now, you know, I enjoy sales throughout the Continental U.S.,
Canada and four other countries. It's basically pretty much set up. At
this point in time I'd like to start getting back into the tile business.
After seeing how cruel the marketing and protection of the -- my
product is, I want to go back to the simplicity
of owning my own contracting business. I've been receiving quite a
few phone calls lately, and would like to gain some extra income, so --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: When did your license lapse?
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: In 2001. End of 2001.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you had one 20 years prior to
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February 18, 2004
that?
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: I was in the State of Connecticut, and
they didn't require any licensing. But I've been a -- I'm pretty much a
dinosaur. I've been involved in the tile trade for over 20 years.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I know what's in your packet,
but just for the record, how long did you have a license here in Collier
County?
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: I took the test July 13th, '91, I believe.
And since from then up to the time that it lapsed.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
Does staff have any problems?
MR. BARTOE: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Reservations?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's required of the
license now for tile setting? Is it a business and law and a specialty
exam?
MR. BARTOE: Yes, I believe so. Three hours specialty.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, in 1991 --
MR. BARTOE: It should have been the same then.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you take two tests?
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: It was -- back then -- I guess they
changed. From what I heard, it was a business and specialty
contractors all wrapped up in one test at that time. But it did involve
the business aspect, as well as the specialized tile industry test. So
both business and specialty issues were covered in the test.
MR. BARTOE: And possibly back then, Mr. Dickson, the
business portion may have only been one hour. I know in '87, when I
took it, it was only one hour.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The thing we're very careful of is not
to set a precedent. So that's why we have quite a few questions.
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: Sure.
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February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: The only thing I would bring to the attention of
the board is that under Section 22-183(B), in order to determine if the
applicant possesses the experience required, the contractor's supervisor
of this board, in this instance, shall consider the following forms as
proof of experience: Affidavits from former employers, copies of
other certificates of competency, if any, supplied by the applicant in
other cities or counties, affidavits from building director, affidavits
from the union organization, or affidavits from any other source. And
I don't know if there's any of that contained in this packet.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, let me ask you the question:
The fact that he had a license for 10 years in Collier County, is that
not prima facie that he has the experience?
MR. NEALE: If the board so deems, yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: This license was on file and on record with
Collier at the time? I mean, back when he -- MR. BARTOE: I'm sorry?
MR. JOSLIN: Do you know if this license was on file on record
when he had the license
active? Was there any information for that? I'm just checking if there
were any complaints or anything that we should know about.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I see where he's going. Maybe you
guys are already there. I see everything for Speed Wheel,
Incorporated current, but I don't see any verification of the previous
license.
MR. LLOYD: Right.
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: I practiced for 10 years.
MR. JOSLIN: Was it under the name of the company, or --
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: Well, actually, the state just changed.
You can't have a sole proprietorship for workman's compensation, so
basically I was under Tile Designs as a fictitious name d/b/a. You
know, Roger Bruttomesso, d/b/a Tile Designs. So that's -- perhaps
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February 18, 2004
that's why there's no record of the Speed Wheel, Incorporated, because
in order to conform with the state loss for Workmen's Comp and
whatnot, I decided to attach my contracting licensing to the
corporation, which I've already established.
MR. BARTOE: His license expired in '01 under doing business
as Tile Designs.
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, that's what I wanted
confirmation of.
And you are showing about a 1 O-year -- well, you don't have the
inception date, do you?
MR. BARTOE: The fictitious name was registered Tile Designs
in December, '94.
MR. JOSLIN: So seven years.
MR. BARTOE: This only goes back to 1994.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody else have any
questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have a lot of people that either
don't want to take the test, don't want to study it, or can't pass it.
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: Right. Well, I passed it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's why you're not flying through.
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: I understand.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We want to make sure. Okay?
MR. JOSLIN: If no one else has any other discussion, I'll make a
motion that we approve this application for the second time.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion for approval. Do I hear a
second?
MR. JOSLIN: I'm sorry, motion to reinstate the license without
taking an exam.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just to waive it.
MR. JOSLIN: Right.
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February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have a second?
MR. LEWIS: Second it, Lewis.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
MR. BRUTTOMESSO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. We wish you well.
Dennis Cox, are you here?
Come forward, sir, and state your name. I need to have you
sworn in.
MR. COX: Dennis Cox.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you're wanting to request to
waive the business and law exam for a painting license. Can you tell
us why?
MR. NEALE: We need to swear him in.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
Oh, I'm sorry.
Can you tell us why? Why are you
wanting to have us waive that requirement?
MR. COX: Well, Mr. Chairman, I -- between my wife and I,
we've made 10 attempts in since 1995 on the painting license and
business and law. And I recently passed the painting contractors part,
and my wife passed business and law, and we were just asking for
some consideration by the board. We've run this together, we've been
married 30 years, and just having great difficulty with the business
and law part. Like I say, she passed it 2003.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I understand your wife passed
the business and law but didn't pass the painting. You passed the
painting but didn't pass the business and law. MR. COX: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The problem before this board is
there's only one name on a license, and what a spouse may have done
doesn't have any influence on the license itself.
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February 18, 2004
How many times have you taken the business and law test?
MR. COX: Three.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Three?
MR. COX: Three.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is it in here?
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh, it is.
MR. COX: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, can you -- you want to
correct me on what I just stated? MR. NEALE: On what?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you agree with it?
MR. NEALE: That he is the only one on the license?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What his spouse made on a test has no
influence whatsoever.
MR. NEALE: Unless this board should decide that it does. But
that person would have no direct liability or responsibility for the
operations of the business. At least according to the statute.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I just didn't want to be off-- off
base. But after 13 or 14 years on this board, we've never approved a
couple for a license.
Oh, I see him here.
I'm showing -- Dennis, I'm showing you've
taken the test two times, the business and law.
MR. COX: Well, I took it in '95, 2002 and 2003.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. JOSLIN: I've got it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
Expedia.
Okay. Well, the '95's not showing.
At least I've got it written on here.
Oh, you've got -- I'm looking at the
MR. JOSLIN: It's about four times -- four pages back.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who prepared that?
MR. COX: Excuse me, I sent in for that -- the business and law
to Experior. It was 6-3-95 was when I took it the first time.
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February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. COX: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. COX: I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
course, what?
Did you take a prep course?
Two-day?
Was it two-day course, one-day
MR. COX: I took contractors exam and went to the -- down here
on 951 and took the course each time before the test.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Why did you have such a lapse
between the two tests? Well, six months, okay. But you haven't taken
it -- tried to take it for over a year.
MR. COX: I took it -- the last time I think it was 2003 -- just a
year ago.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, January 4th, 2003.
MR. COX: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How often is it offered?
MR. COX: I'm sorry?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How often is the test offered?
MR. COX: I believe like one month it's in Fort Myers and the
next month it's in Naples.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does anybody else have any
questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The only time -- I can't tell you what
this board is going to do, because as Chairman I don't make motions.
The only time we've waived such a requirement is after-- I can only
think of the guy from Poland most recently who must have taken it
nine or 10 times and got within two or three points of-- do you
realize that Collier County requires a passing grade of 75. Most other
counties require a passing grade of 70.
My only concern here, and I'm speaking for myself now, is that
you just didn't keep going and going and going. Because the
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February 18, 2004
construction class that you took offers a free review, if you don't pass
the test; is that not correct? MR. COX: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I personally would like to see more
attempts. You're close. You can get over the hump.
MR. JOSLIN: Either one of them.
MR. LLOYD: Right, either one of you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right, or your wife on the painting
side. Again, we just don't want to set a precedent here, because then
we get everyone in Collier County who tries one or two times -- in
other words, you haven't -- in your opinion, you haven't tried hard
enough.
MR. COX: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But I'll see what the motion brings.
MR. COX: Thank you.
MR. JOSLIN: Right now you're employed by Breakwater; is
that the case?
MR. COX: Yes, I manage six of their employees and painting
for them. So there's a seven-man crew.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, looking at your wife's scores,
your wife one more time may be able to pass the painting test. MR. LLOYD: Right.
MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, if I may ask a
question?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
MR. NONNENMACHER: How long have you been working
for Breakwater?
MR. COX: Full-time since 2001.
MR. NONNENMACHER: And how long have you been
painting?
MR. COX: I've been painting since I was 18 years old, on the
side, up in Indiana. I was a machinist up there, but I painted for a real
Page 18
February 18, 2004
estate company, just touching up and cleaning up units after they were
rented out.
MR. NONNENMACHER: Working for Breakwater, have you
had any problems with your work? Have you had any complaints
from the contractor?
MR. COX: No, not at all.
MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, I know your feelings.
Staff would have no objection to waive a business and law, after
taking the painting test quite a few times. It seems to me that -- I
know you only issue a license to one person, but I'm sure this board
could feel confident that the business end of the business will be well
taken care of. It seems like, and I quote, unquote, a mom and pop
team that isn't going to be any monstrous business working for a
construction outfit, and probably make a little money on the side.
It is in the ordinance that if you feel testing is superfluous, you
can waive the test. As I said before, staff would have no objection for
a license being issued to this gentleman and waiving the business and
law.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, thank you, Mr. Nonnenmacher.
Any further discussion? Questions?
MR. JOSLIN: I would probably have no problem with
considering a motion for accepting this. The only problem is, I'm
seeing if the motion may be able to be put on a restricted
license for a year, with supervision by staff, that if there's any
problems, or what if by some unfortunate thing the couple breaks up,
so there's only one person running the business, we don't have both
parties involved as a mom and pop business. Maybe I'm shooting in
the wind here in this thing.
MR. LLOYD: Well, the other thing is, are we looking at this --
do we -- basically we're waiving the business and law requirement.
That's what's being discussed. And yet the wife has passed that.
MR. NEALE: This board--
Page 19
February 18, 2004
MR. NONNENMACHER: Just a point -- I'm sorry, Mr. Neale,
go ahead.
MR. NEALE: This board has in the past, in my memory, at least,
waived requirements subject to, as Mr. Joslin suggestion, subject to
review at a certain period, and then removing the restriction. Or this
board has also issued it subject to retaking the exam within a certain
period of time and still operating under supervision of the board. So
those are ways in which the board has operated in the past.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Nonnenmacher, did you have
something more?
MR. NONNENMACHER: The only point I wanted to make out,
the subject of the wife passing the business and law was just to make
you feel a little more comfortable with waiving a business and law.
That was the only reason why -- you are only discussing waiving the
business and law for Mr. Fox (sic). And the point Mrs. Fox (sic)
passed it was just a point of information for you, to give you a little
higher comfort level.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's make a motion and see where it
goes.
MR. JOSLIN: I'll make the motion that we approve this
application, with the understanding that it will become reviewed by
the board under the jurisdiction of the board after a one-year period.
And in the meantime, at some point in that one-year period that
this business and law test that you have failed be retaken and
attempted to pass again.
MR. COX: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: Under which case, you would
be able to do business all the time.
MR. LLOYD: I'll second that, Lloyd.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion?
MR. LEWIS: What kind of painting license is this? Is it a
full-blown commercial license or just a -- don't we have different
Page 20
February 18, 2004
grades?
MR. NEALE: No, there's only one grade of painting contractor.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Under discussion, I have -- please
understand, this has nothing to do with you personally. Four of the
people sitting up here, one of the people is a consumer volunteer, but
four of us have licenses. And you've now found out how precious
licenses are in Collier County. And that's the reason we all covet
those licenses and do whatever we have to do to protect them and
maintain them.
MR. COX: Yes, sir, I understand.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: My only reserve is that I haven't seen
enough effort to go a whole year without taking it. That bothers me.
But at the same time, the motion that I like was that you have to
take it again. I would like maybe to say that he has to take it
at least twice. Because I think if you take it two more times, you'll
pass it. And then the review is off, the county supervision is off,
you've got a full-blown license. I don't know how you all feel about
that.
MR. LEWIS: I like provisions, that's great, and I don't mind
helping somebody out. Especially if the effort's been put forward. And
I know sometimes you just get into a stumbling block and it's hard to
get over that hurdle.
I would like to know a little bit more about Mrs. Cox and her
education in the painting field and experience in the painting field. If
we're going to tie her in to the license, I think that has some prudence.
MR. JOSLIN: Well, I don't think that was --
MR. LLOYD: We're not tying the wife in.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It has nothing to do with her.
MR. LLOYD:
law and business -- MR. JOSLIN:
taken the test.
We're specifically looking at him and waiving the
And we're just accepting the fact that she has
Page 21
February 18, 2004
MR. LLOYD: She has taken it. If she was applying --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One at a time.
MR. LEWIS: Okay, then I would ask the board why you feel
you must waive, or feel you want to waive the business and law. Mr.
Joslin?
MR. JOSLIN: Basically I'm basing it on the fact of as many
years as he's been doing it, number one. And the fact that he has a
spouse that does know the business and law end of it and then the
recommendations from staff, from Mr. Nonnenmacher.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the reason that I tempered a little
bit, over all these years I have seen people that have had no business
having a license. I have seen people that will never pass the test that
have taken it dozens of times and don't do any better. Sometimes they
get worse.
You're not in that category. If you would apply yourself and
keep trying, you would pass this test. I have no doubt about that. So
that's why I kind of changed my opinion a little bit.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Cox, do you think you'd be able to take the
test and pass it this coming year?
MR. COX: I'll give it the best shot that I can.
MR. LEWIS: Do you realize that within the year that means that
you'll be back for review in front of the board? MR. COX: Yes.
MR. LEWIS: And that if you don't pass the test, it's not going to
look good.
MR. COX: I understand.
MR. LEWIS: I have no further-- more discussion.
MR. JOSLIN: And I would amend the motion to state that the --
Mr. Cox takes this test at minimum of two times. If you pass it in one,
then it's done.
MR. LLOYD: I'll second the amended motion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second the amended motion.
Page 22
February 18, 2004
Any further discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor of
the motion?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. NONNENMACHER:
Opposed?
I didn't think you'd do this.
I have one question, Mr. Dickson.
Do you want that license issued as temporary one-year license?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Temporary one-year license is what I
understood.
MR. LEWIS: Agreed.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you --
MR. JOSLIN: Unless the test that he takes in the meantime is
passed. If it is, then it would be a full complete license.
MR. NONNENMACHER: Then staff would have the authority
to--
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
MR. NONNENMACHER: -- convert it.
MR. LLOYD: Because he already has one part of the license.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So get that test out of the way, you
don't come back here, you have a permanent license. But we showed
some faith in
you.
MR. COX: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We wish you well.
MR. COX: Thank you.
MR. LEWIS: Good luck.
MR. JOSLIN: Don't let me down.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Going back to Tobias Simmons. Did
you come in?
Page 23
February 18, 2004
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
There is no old business. Public hearings.
Edward Branthoover, are you here?
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come forward. Who on
staff is representing this one? Okay.
Why don't we do it this way, since it's a public hearing, is let me
hear from staff first and then Edward, I'll have your rebuttal and give
us what you feel. But I need to have -- why don't we just swear in
both of them at the same time.
(Speakers were duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Staff.
MR. HOOPINGARNER: For the record, my name is James
Hoopingamer. That last name is H-O-O-P-I-N-G-A-R-N-E-R. And
I'm employed by Collier County as a contractor licensing compliance
officer.
The reason we're here today is that Mr. Branthoover is contesting
citation 1968 for being an unlicensed roof cleaner, pressure cleaning.
The background on that is, is on December 8th at approximately
11:40 a.m., at the address of 7490 Lord's Court, while on patrol, I
observed Mr. Branthoover cleaning a roof. I didn't recognize any of
the markings of the truck of the equipment, so I stopped and checked
him out.
And upon talking with Mr. Branthoover, it was learned that he
did not have a Collier County competency or specialty license to
pressure clean roofs, which is required. He did have a Lee County
occupational license for pressure cleaning, but that's all he had.
I informed Mr. Branthoover that he did need a specialty license
or certificate in Collier County. And unfortunately he was
issued a citation for $300 for roof cleaning without a license.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, Mr. Branthoover?
Page 24
February 18, 2004
MR. BRANTHOOVER: All I know is I called down to Collier
County Licensing and I asked them if I needed a license for pressure
cleaning. They said no. They said you don't need a license for
pressure cleaning outside of homes.
And I'm sorry, but I think the outside of a house is a roof, too, in
the general aspect of it. It's outside.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. NEALE: I'll look.
MR. HOOPINGARNER:
Mr. Neale? Is it covered in statute?
Mr. Chairman, if I could elaborate on
that a little bit? Upon talking with Mr. Branthoover-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. NONNENMACHER: -- who he called was occupational
licensing. And in Collier County, if you do not reside or have your
business in Collier County and have another occupational license from
another county, which he does in Lee County, then he is not required
to have any other occupational licenses in Collier County.
Occupational license has nothing to do with our contractors licensing
officer.
MR. NEALE: And we do have a license category called roof
coating, roof painting and roof cleaning contractor, which requires 24
months experience and a two-hour business and law test. And that
means any person qualified to clean, paint or coat a roof by means of
pressure operated equipment and application or otherwise, but it does
not include roof repair.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: And I tried to take the business and law
test two times, $270 apiece, in December.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And did what, not passed it?
MR. BRANTHOOVER: No, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: Was this after you got the citation?
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir. Because they said-- the best
of my knowledge is I didn't need one until he gave me a $300 ticket.
MR. HOOPINGARNER: Mr. Chairman?
Page 25
February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
MR. HOOPINGARNER: I can attest that he
did take the test twice. In fact, he went to Gainesville to take the test,
took the test on December the 16th and also December the 23rd, and
unfortunately he did not receive passing scores.
MR. JOSLIN: Do you know what the scores were?
MR. HOOPINGARNER: The first test he scored 64, second test
was 62.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, you can pass it--
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- if you studied hard, took a prep
course.
Mr. Neale, would you like to tell us what we can do on citations,
or just remind us?
MR. NEALE: Well, the board does have the ability in a case like
this that if the violation has been corrected, the board may dismiss the
citation, or if the board finds that the violation exists as a continuing
existing violation, that they can impose the penalty, as set forth in the
citation, or anything up to $1,000 per the event.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That was always my understanding,
we cannot decrease it. Only way we can do away with it is if maybe
you got the license. The only options that are left available to us is to
leave it the same or increase it. So this board, our hands are pretty
well tied.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: I was just wondering, since I'm trying
to take the test, if instead of not paying this fine, if I get caught
working in Collier County again on somebody's roof, charge me the
$500.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, we don't have that authority.
MR. NEALE: The board does have the ability to look to the
actions taken by the violator to correct the violation, previous
violations and the gravity of the violation, and the board may, in those
Page 26
February 18, 2004
instances, if it so sees fit, dismiss the vio -- dismiss the citation or may
dismiss the citation with certain provisos. So that is within the
purview of the board.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It is possible?
MR. NEALE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But see, there's no
reciprocity between Lee and Collier County.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir. Because, I mean, I know I
was wrong, there's no getting around it, because the ignorance of the
law is no excuse. But I did ask, I did call, and they told me no, I didn't
need one.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But an occupational license --
MR. BRANTHOOVER: And I'm licensed in Glades, too.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- is only for an office. Just like my
license in Lee County is not an occupational, because I don't have an
office location there.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: But Glades County told me ifI didn't
have one they would fine me for not having an occupational license.
I'm trying.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah.
MR. LLOYD: How long have you been doing this business?
MR. BRANTHOOVER: I started when I was in high school and
then I went to the Army, got out of Army, came back and started
doing it again.
MR. LLOYD: So the length of time?
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Probably around six years.
MR. LLOYD: And most of the work has been in Lee County?
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Most all my work started in Glades
County.
MR. LLOYD: Glades?
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir. And then I started driving
back and forth from Fort Myers every day to do roofs in Fort Myers. I
Page 27
February 18, 2004
said well, Collier County has a lot of tile roofs, so I started coming
down here and taking care of some of the business.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You work by yourself?.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir, I do everything all by myself.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Have you incorporated yet?
MR. BRANTHOOVER: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You know you need to do that.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir. I have to get incorporated
because they won't write me a sole proprietor workmen's comp. It
was $9,000 for the down payment, and I can't afford that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, because you get through into
the state fund because you have no history. And that can be an LLC,
it can be any form of corporation.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But if you don't start right now, you're
not going to get it done by the deadline of July 1. MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because they gave us that six-month
extension because everyone was so back logged. But unless you start
moving in the next week or two, you're not going to get it done by
July 1.
MR. NEALE: And I can tell you from having made an attempt
on clients of mine, just trying to get Articles of Incorporation filed in
the state, they now have a six- to eight-week backlog, from the time
you send them up there.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And there is a strong lobbying effort
to reverse the changes they made; there's a stronger lobbying effort the
other way, to leave it alone. So don't count on that, it ain't going to
change.
Well, how's the board feel about this? What do you want to do?
MR. LLOYD: Were you paid by the homeowner for the roof
cleaning?
Page 28
February 18, 2004
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir. I'm paid-- it's usually -- I
don't do any businesses or anything like that, so the homeowner has to
pay for everything that I do.
MR. LLOYD: So you've already been paid for this. And
obviously you did not complete the roof, right?
MR. HOOP1NGARNER: It's kind of one of our common
courtesies, sir, to realize what's going to happen here. And we
shouldn't, but we let them finish the job so at least they can get paid
for it, and I believe he did finish the roof.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How does staff feel about this?
MR. HOOPINGARNER: Sir, I was hired to do a job out in the
field by Collier County. And this is my job. I think if anything was
done any different here -- we always talk about precedence being set.
If a precedent's set here, you're going to make it awful hard for
Collier County contractor licensing investigators to do their job out in
the field.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's what I wanted to hear. Because
MR. LEWIS: I agree with that statement.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- no one -- in my time on this board,
we have not dismissed a ticket, citation.
MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that the ticket that was issued
by Collier County Code Enforcement Licensing Investigator stands at
$300. It is to be paid within 30 days.
MR. BESWICK: Second, Beswick.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second.
Any discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We would like to have not done that,
but we really don't have a choice.
Page 29
February 18, 2004
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir.
If I take the test and pass it within the 30 days, do I have to pay
the ticket?
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, because it still --
MR. JOSLIN: You still got caught.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We've got to follow the letter of what
goes on right there.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: But it says if I correct the action --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Before the hearing.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Oh, before the hearing, yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we hate being a jerk sometimes
good pressure cleaning people down here.
county.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Oh, yes, sir.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: That's no problem.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- but we have to be. Because we need
You will do well in this
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because I recommend people on a
daily basis. I'm in the roofing business. And we need good ones that
know what they're doing, who don't do damage to the roof.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: I don't really weigh enough to do any
damage up there.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just get it done and get over this
hurdle, because we could use you here.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Best of luck to you.
MR. BRANTHOOVER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you.
Case No. 2004-01, Collier County Licensing versus Daniel
Greene.
Mr. Greene, are you here?
Page 30
February 18, 2004
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come forward.
MRi BARTOE: Mr. Chairman, I believe staff would like to take
a recess to meet with county attorney for five, 10 minutes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I never deny that. We will take a --
and let's make it 10 minutes, folks, because I'd like to move on. I
thought we'd be here till 3:00, but I think we can make this a quick
meeting. 10:05 we start back up, okay?
(Brief recess.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I'd like to recall this meeting to
order. We now have before us Case No. 2004-01, Collier County
Contractor Licensing versus Daniel Greene.
Mr. Greene, would you come up to the podium. Also, County.
So we can do this all at one time. Are the homeowners going to
testify as well?
MR. BARTOE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. ZACHARY: Yeah, we have a witness for the county as
well.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we have a witness for the county.
Well, we'll just swear them in as we go through it.
Let me tell you how this case goes, and it's kind of quasi judicial.
We will start off, the county will present their case. Just a brief
overview, okay?
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then you'll be able to respond to that.
Not with witnesses or a lot of details. And then the county will call
any witnesses they have, and those witnesses will testify. Once they
are finished with them, you will be able to ask them questions as well
in rebuttal or defense.
MR. GREENE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then once the county is finished,
Page 31
February 18, 2004
then you'll be able to present your case.
After all of that is done, this board will close public hearing,
which means anything you're going to say, you need to say it before
we close the public hearing. Because once we close the public
hearing, basically the case is over, but you sit here and listen to us talk
between ourselves. We may ask you a question during that closed
time, but there'll be no new evidence presented after that. You follow
me?
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You will hear us discuss it and then
we will render a decision and issue it by this board. And that's how
the case will pretty well go.
So with that understood, any questions or anything?
MR. NEALE: Just one addendum to it, Mr. Dickson.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
MR. NEALE: Is that the county, at the end of his presentation of
this case, does get to put on a rebuttal case, and then they both get
to make closing statements also.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Neale.
So with that, who's going to present the case, Mr. Bartoe?
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Zachary.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. ZACHARY: Do you
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
Zachary, being an attorney, is a
Mr. Zachary, okay.
want me to stand up or --
I'm comfortable here, and Mr.
friend of the court, so he does not
have to be sworn in, just so you understand why.
MR. ZACHARY: Yeah, I'm not going to be presenting any
testimony, I'm just going to be asking questions and eliciting some
answers.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just give us a brief overview.
MR. ZACHARY: In June of 2003, Mr. and Mrs. John Foster,
who live on Marco Island, contacted a Mr. Daniel Greene to install tile
Page 32
February 18, 2004
at their residence on Marco Island.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Excuse me just a minute.
on?
Is his mic.
THE COURT REPORTER: Very weak.
MR. ZACHARY: The Fosters, after contracting with Mr.
Greene, went on vacation or went to Kentucky and left Mr. Greene
and several other trades working on the interior of their house. When
they returned from Kentucky, they discovered that there were some
problems with the job, that it had been completed but the installation
they felt was faulty and needed to be corrected. They found that there
were several -- or most of the tile was uneven, there were grout lines
that were uneven, there were grout lines that were different sizes.
They contacted Mr. Greene, attempted to have the problems
corrected. An attempt was made to correct the problems, it seems, and
that was unsuccessful. And to this date all attempts to get the
contractor to correct the problems, any problems that they feel that
they had with the faulty workmanship and the substandard
workmanship have met with negative results. That's the case briefly.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Greene, I need for you to
state your full name, please.
MR. GREENE: Daniel Greene.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need to have you sworn in.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just a brief response of what
happened on the job, and then we'll get into the particulars.
MR. GREENE: Brief response. It all bases on what the
sub-floor was. It was a wood floor and the undulations in there. And
you've got a 19-inch tile on diagonal. And it swales in there. And the
biggest problem was coming in from the garage, you put a six-foot
straight edge on there, you've got a three-inch gap at the end of that
six-inch. You project that 25 feet, you'd be stepping into a -- stepping
down into a bedroom. And you're going to have a curve going into
Page 33
February 18, 2004
the dining room.
And also bringing that out would be about three inches, so you'd
be stepping down probably about 10 inches into the lanai area. And
that's past code as far as a 1 O-inch rise. So that's where the whole
problem started.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. At this point I'm going to go
ahead and have the county present their full case. What I would have
you do at this point is go ahead and have a seat and then I'll call you
up as-- so that you can
redirect questions to their witnesses, okay? Mr. Zachary, it's all yours.
MR. ZACHARY: Okay, at this point the County would like to
enter the Composite Exhibit A into evidence for the board in the
county's packet.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I need a motion to enter
Exhibit Composite A.
MR. JOSLIN: So moved.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second?
MR. LLOYD: Second.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So done. Go ahead.
MR. ZACHARY: And I think you need to ask Mr. Greene if
there's any objection to the county's packet as a --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you get a copy of this packet?
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir, I did.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do you have any objection to
US --
MR. GREENE: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, thank you very much.
MR. ZACHARY: At this time, the county would like to call
Mrs. Greene-- not Mrs. Greene -- Mrs. Foster to the stand to tell us
Page 34
February 18, 2004
her side of the story.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, please, would you state
your name? And I need to have you sworn in, please.
MS. FOSTER: Betty Foster.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. ZACHARY: Mrs. Foster, do you live here in Collier
County?
MS. FOSTER: Yes.
MR. ZACHARY: And do you own a residence in Collier
County?
MS. FOSTER: Yes. 1547 Caxambas.
MR. ZACHARY: Did there come a time that you contracted or
made a contract with Daniel Greene to install tile at your home on
Marco Island?
MS. FOSTER: Yes, in June of last year.
MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Could you tell the board your
experience in how that came about and what happened as a result of
your contracting with Mr. Greene?
MS. FOSTER: Well, because we were intending to completely
repaint the interior of the house, we were replacing cabinets back in
that had been removed, so the house had been gutted, really. There
was very little furniture in it. It was all piled in one comer. We had a
painter working there that was painting the interior of the house,
ceilings and all. We had the cabinet maker there that had taken them
out and was waiting for Mr. Greene to do the tile.
And he was recommended by two different people. He was
recommended by my pool contractor, he was recommended by D&B
Tile. Because I did go there to pick out the tile and I did ask about
him. I did use him because he was a contractor that worked smaller
jobs. He didn't have like a store, but he could work in and around the
painter and the cabinet man. So he could do one section while they
painted and, you know, move around and work with the painter.
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February 18, 2004
It was a gravy job. There was nothing in the house. We were
never told that there was any problem with the tile when it was picked
out. I would have picked out something different if it had been a
problem. It was a radial edged tile. I was never told that by him or by
D&B Tile that will it would be difficult to lay. They never said
anything about it.
We left. We paid him $5,000 when we left. He said, "It's going
to be about a $10,000 job, go pick out the tile." I picked out
something that was a little bit more expensive. He said that will be
another $1,000. So we gave him $5,000 and about two weeks later he
called and he says, "I've started the work, I need more money." So we
sent him another $3,000.
About a week after that we got a lien letter from D&B Tile where
he had not paid for the tile as yet, and we'd given him the $8,000.
MR. ZACHARY: Has that been satisfied now, the lien?
MS. FOSTER: Yes, it has been satisfied.
MR. ZACHARY: Did you have to take care of that, or did he
take care of it?
MS. FOSTER: No, he took care of it. But, you know, that was
the original 5,000 so we could pay for the tile. I wanted to pay for the
tile up front.
And then again, it was another two weeks or so, he wanted -- and
in the meantime he said, "I've got some tile left over." Now, we
haven't seen this job. And we had a friend that was in town and I said,
"Would you go look at my tile and tell me how it's looking?" And she
said, "Well, Betty, it's pretty tile but it's not grouted and it's not
finished. It's just through the middle of the floor. It's not around the
edges and bathroom and all." Okay.
Well, about two weeks later he called and he said, "I have
leftover tile and I will do the utility room with that leftover tile.
There's enough to do it for an additional $750." I had no reason to
think there was anything wrong with the job so far. The painter kind
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February 18, 2004
of-- I said, "How's the tile going?" And he kind of ho hummed, you
know, hmm, uhm.
I did ask the cabinet guy and he said -- I said, "How does the tile
look?" And he said, "All right." I told John, I said we've got a
problem.
So he wanted the 750. Well, about-- like I said, two weeks later
he called for more money. And at this point now I still owe him an
additional 3,000, plus the additional 750 for the utility room. I said,
"Dan, I haven't even seen this. I don't feel comfortable giving you
every bit of this money. I'm still in Tennessee, I'll be there in about 10
days." "Well, I've got the work almost completed and I'd like to be
paid."
So I held off-- I paid the 3,000 and held the 750 back. And he
didn't really want me to do that, but I said, "I haven't even seen this
job, you know. I'll be there in 10 days."
So we got back and-- got back into town on Sunday morning,
and I went over there and around the edges along the lanai doors were
not done. There were places under the tile, I mean, they hadn't -- he
had just cut it off and cut it off uneven. You could stick paper under
five and six inches under the tile at different places. I never even
countered to see how many times didn't have mastic under them, didn't
have stuff under them. But it looks like a washboard. And so I waited
till Monday morning. I had his cell number, I could have called him
on Sunday, but I waited till Monday morning. I did ream him out, I
really did. Because here, $11,000 later I've got rough -- your heels
will catch on it. If you wear -- a woman wears a high heel, your heels
will catch on the floor. Around where the dining table is, our kitchen
table where we eat all the time, if you start to push your chair back, it
catches. You have to lift your chair to push it back. It's awful.
I called him and I reamed him out on Monday morning. He said
he never had anybody talk to him like that. Now, I didn't curse him,
but I did tell him I thought he was in the wrong business. He said he'd
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February 18, 2004
been in this business for 25 years, I thought he'd been in the wrong
business. Because it was not a custom job. It's a very unprofessional
job. I talked to my pool contractor-- now, this is a pool contractor, not
a pool man. He said, "Well, Dan didn't really do my work." ! said,
"Well, you recommended him." He said, "Well, he didn't really do
my work; somebody else did my work." So I talked to D&B Tile.
"Well, all I can tell you is if the tile is any good, I can't tell you about
the workmanship." And I said, "But you're recommending him. I
used, you know, you as a recommendation for him."
"Well, the tiles' good tile." That's all he would say.
So Dan, when he finally did come to see me said, 'Tll come see
you, and we'll talk about it on Tuesday." This was on Monday I
talked to him. Then I talked to D&B Tile and D&B Tile said, 'Tll
come look at it."
Well, he and Dan showed up at the same time. They weren't
supposed to, but they did. Dan had been drinking and he was angry at
me that I didn't like his job. And he said, "Well, I'll straighten it out."
Well, it was about a week later when him and another man came in to
straighten it out. Well, they removed about 10 or 12 tiles and replaced
them. But his idea of straightening out the ones that were kind of up
like this was to grout it uphill.
MR. ZACHARY: And how far would you say that the tiles were
from being plumb or level to each other?
MS. FOSTER: I don't know, but you can catch your heels on it
and you can catch your bare foot on it if you hit it right. It's rough.
MR. ZACHARY: Is this just a few places or is it --
MS. FOSTER: No, sir, it's 75 percent of the floor. Right through
the middle. And I asked my -- then I started talking to everybody,
because my paint guy, my paint contractor was kind of supposed to be
in charge of this job, because he was going to make sure that the
cabinet guy came back and he was going to coordinate everything.
And I said, "How in the world -- why didn't you tell me what was
Page 38
February 18, 2004
going on? How could Dan have done this? He supposedly has been
in business for 25 years. He said, "There was a young man that did
your tile, and he said he was in his twenties and said he didn't grout
the tile, so it was hard to tell exactly how bad it was, because it was
there for a long time not grouted." So it was just grouted just before
we came back after the paint and everything. The contractors had to
wait on him, they couldn't get him to come in and finish the job. The
cabinet guys had to wait on it him. Sid worked around him, the
painter. So it was just a mess.
This was a gravy job. He was paid ahead of time and he could do
it whenever he wanted to. There was no time line. He was given
three months to do it.
Well, he came in with a man to straighten it up, and even the man
told me they removed 10 or 12 tiles, they grouted and everything. He
said it would take probably in here, you're talking about 60 percent of
the tile in our great room that would have to be removed. But that
wouldn't even do the job, because he didn't do the proper
underlayment to begin with.
Now, let me explain something to you: We never questioned
how he was going to put this tile down, what he was going to do. If it
was the wrong kind of tile for a wood floor, if it needed an
underlayment, it was never mentioned before we left town and before
he started his job. Had he said you need this rot -- because carpet had
been on this before. It had just had tile around the front of the kitchen
area, the bar area. And the rest of it had been carpet. Even down the
hallway and in one bathroom had been tile. So he didn't remove tile
from this whole floor, some of it had been carpet. Even the hallway
down into the bathroom was. But he never said you need this, he said
I've got to put some plywood down. I said fine, Dan, do what you
have to do.
MR. ZACHARY: Was the carpet still on the floor when he came
to give you the estimate of the job?
Page 39
February 18, 2004
MS. FOSTER: Yes, the carpet was still on the floor.
MR. ZACHARY: And to reiterate, you didn't discuss with him
how -- the method that he was going to use? MS. FOSTER: No, sir.
MR. ZACHARY: You thought that he was -- had experience and
would put down the floor correctly?
MS. FOSTER: He had been recommended by the people that
sell the tile.
MR. ZACHARY: How many times did he come back to try to
rectify the situation?
MS. FOSTER: He came back -- well, he came back several days
in one week, but he didn't come for a week. And then they came back.
And it finally got to the point where if you're looking at it, I mean, if
you'd take up three or four tiles and put them down, then you'd have
an edge on the ones that were left. And it -- I mean, he'd been there
working, I don't know, three or four days of that next day, and it was
obviously he was going nowhere, he was doing nothing. You know, I
mean, it was not -- he might straighten up one area and mess up
another.
MR. ZACHARY: Okay. At this point then you still feel that
there was still faulty workmanship that hasn't been corrected?
MS. FOSTER: Yes, sir. I feel like he left that job to someone
that didn't know how to lay tile. And he tried to straighten the mess
up, and he came in and he laid a portion of it himself. He laid the
hallway, supposedly, and the bathroom. And the least-- those were
probably the best laid. Now, they still were not good, there were
edges sticking up. But the bathroom and the utility room and
the hallway and around the edges. But right through the middle of
my great room, right through the middle of it where we use it the
most, it's rougher than a cob.
MR. ZACHARY: Do you feel like that creates a dangerous
situation? Is there enough of a gap or unevenness in the floor that
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February 18, 2004
might be -- cause a hazard to someone that's walking across the -- MS. FOSTER: Yes, I do. In some instances, yes. And in fact,
I've already caught a high heel on it once and had to catch myself.
MR. ZACHARY: Does the staff or any of the board have any
questions for Mrs. Foster?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Greene, do you have any
questions for this witness? If so, I'll have you -- MR. GREENE: No, I don't. I don't.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I have some questions.
Did you get other bids?
MS. FOSTER: No, sir, I didn't.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You just got the one bid, nobody else?
MS. FOSTER: No, sir, I didn't. I'm very sorry I didn't.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, this item you call a lien letter,
how long after the tile was purchased did you receive this?
MS. FOSTER: I -- well, I've got it. I received it -- it was dated --
postmarked 7-7. I received it in Kentucky probably the 10th or 11 th.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But when did he buy the tile?
MS. FOSTER: I don't -- well, I would imagine he bought it right
away in June when I gave him the first $5,000.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Was it probably a notice to owner?
MS. FOSTER: It may have been, yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which is an entirely different issue,
which is --
MS. FOSTER: It just says a lien thing on the front.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It just has that--
MS. FOSTER: Um-hum.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
the property --
MS. FOSTER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MS. FOSTER: Yes.
-- supplier has a right to file a lien on
-- if he doesn't pay.
Page 41
February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I might just let you know, that's
very standard. It's a standard thing that takes place. It has no
reflection on the contractor at all.
MS. FOSTER: But if you pay for the tile when you pick it up, do
you normally get that?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It could be that, but also if you've --
MS. FOSTER: Do you?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- got credit-- if you've got credit, it's
good business to go ahead and use your credit. Do we have photographs of this floor?
MS. FOSTER: No, sir. I tried to take photographs, and to be
honest with you, it's an off-white floor. There was just no way. I
mean, you --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you realize how tied our hands are
not having photographs of this?
MS. FOSTER: Well, I called Mr. Bartoe, I called the office and
they came out to see it, and also Mr. Ehlen has seen the tile.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Did you ever pay the
remaining $750?
MS. FOSTER: Yes, sir, I did.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why?
MS. FOSTER: He's been paid in full.
Because I told him, we contracted with him and I paid him.
That's what we were supposed to do. We held up to our end of the
bargain. But I want to tell you something: He laid us away, he
overcharged us and he gave us poor workmanship.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you owed him 750 when you got
back in town, correct?
MS. FOSTER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you still gave him the 750?
MS. FOSTER: He said he was trying to straighten it out, and he
was in there to try to straighten it out. And when he was done I told
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February 18, 2004
him, I said, "I told you I'd pay you and I paid you."
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, now, how old is this house?
MS. FOSTER: This house was built in 1986.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And why does it have
wood floors? Is it on stilts or is it on a --
MS. FOSTER: It's on a crawl space.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's a crawl space.
MS. FOSTER: It's a crawl space under it. It has a slab on the
bottom of the crawl space and then it's raised with a wood floor.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And part of it already had tile, I
assume --
MS. FOSTER: Around the kitchen.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- all the way in the bathrooms?
MS. FOSTER: The bathroom had tile, the hallway did not, and
the great room just had it around the kitchen area, just right around the
bar.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you put tile throughout the
house?
MS. FOSTER: Throughout. Well, I was going to take up the
marble because I didn't like the marble in the dining room and the
foyer. Thank God I didn't, because I'd have that mess there, too.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's all the questions I have.
Anybody else?
MR. LEWIS: Mrs. Foster, was anything ever said to you about
the size of the tile not being prudent to the installation?
MS. FOSTER: No, sir, not until I complained about the way the
installation looked.
MR. LEWIS: At any time did Mr. Greene gave you an
indication that using a 19-inch square tile would not be conducive to
the plywood substrate?
MS. FOSTER: No, sir, not until I complained.
MR. LEWIS: Did he suggest to you that there might be any
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February 18, 2004
conditions that would be necessary to provide a proper substrate for
the installation of that tile?
MS. FOSTER: No, sir. He told me at one time he had to add
some plywood where the carpet had been. And I said, "Dan, do
whatever you need to do."
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Greene brought forward a statement earlier in
his opening statements that the floor was -- I believe, and correct me if
I'm wrong, Mr. Greene -- out of level to a certain extent, that it might
cause an unsafe and un-code proved condition at a step-down in
I believe a sunken area? MR. GREENE: Yes.
MR. LEWIS: 10 inches or something like that, 1 O-inch step?
Did he ever bring that to your attention?
MS. FOSTER: There is no such thing. There was tile in that
area. It goes out the back door. He says it drops. It didn't drop
before. Our doors all fit. They don't fit now. We took them down.
MR. LEWIS: Doors, meaning your interior doors?
MS. FOSTER: Interior door.
MR. LEWIS: That's all the questions I had.
MR. JOSLIN: I only have one.
There were no other changes made to the home after his initial
estimate was given, in the house, like construction going on or
something changed on the flooring-- MS. FOSTER: No, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: -- or a wall put in or --
MS. FOSTER: No, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: -- nothing that would have changed his initial --
MS. FOSTER: No, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: -- estimate?
MS. FOSTER: No, sir. It was wide open. Cabinets were out.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Zachary?
MR. ZACHARY: I don't have any --
Page 44
February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next witness. Or do you have any
more?
MR. ZACHARY: I have Mr. Ed Ehlen, from Ehlen Tile.
Mr. Foster, did you want to testify?
MR. FOSTER: Not necessarily.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: ! need for you to state your name, and
I'll have you sworn in, sir.
MR. EHLEN: My name's Ed Ehlen. E-H-L-E-N.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Ehlen, what's your occupation, sir?
MR. EHLEN: I own a floor covering store down on Marco
Island.
MR. ZACHARY: Okay. And are you familiar with the methods
and materials and the installation of tile? EHLEN: Yes.
ZACHARY: Have you actually done the tile work
MR.
MR.
yourself?.
MR.
EHLEN: Yes, I have.
MR. ZACHARY: How long have you been in the tile business?
MR. EHLEN: About 13 years.
MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Would you say that you're familiar
with the standards of workmanship that-- and the generally accepted
standards in Collier County-- MR. EHLEN: Yes.
MR. ZACHARY: -- with relation to workmanship and product
and the way the job is finished and conducted?
MR. EHLEN: Yes, I would.
MR.
contacted
residence
MR.
MR.
ZACHARY: Okay. Did you at some point -- were you
to and inspect a floor covering job or a tile job at the Foster
on Marco Island?
EHLEN: Yes. I was called by Tom Bartoe.
ZACHARY: Okay. What was the purpose? What did he
Page 45
February 18, 2004
ask to you do when he called you to do that?
MR. EHLEN: Basically he got a complaint about workmanship
and wanted me to take a look and see if it was an acceptable job.
MR. ZACHARY: Did you go over to the residence on Marco
Island?
MR. EHLEN: Yes, I did.
MR. ZACHARY: And did you inspect the -- and when was that?
When did you go over there?
MR. EHLEN: I have to be honest with you, I really don't
remember. A few months ago. Probably three or four months ago.
MR. ZACHARY: Okay, so it was -- and when you went over
there, can you describe to the board what you found and what was --
did Mr. Bartoe go with you?
MR. EHLEN: Yes, I met Mr. Bartoe and another gentleman.
MR. ZACHARY: What did you find when you went over and
inspected that floor for workmanship and quality?
MR. EHLEN: There were just a lot of highs and lows in the tile.
The tile they used is a rectified tile. It was a very good tile. And
when I say rectified, it's like marble. It's a piece of porcelain that is
cut perfectly like marble. That's what it's made for. It's a very
expensive tile. Which should make it very easy to have no difference
in the grout joints. None whatsoever, because that's the way the tile's
manufactured.
MR. ZACHARY: Is it manufactured to have a very thin grout
line?
MR. EHLEN: Absolutely. That's what the word rectified means.
It was a very good tile.
What Mr. Greene stated is correct. We bid on jobs, Ehlen Floor
Covering. I do probably five to 7,000 feet of tile a week. And I go
into new construction homes, I go into a lot of residential homes that
I'm replacing carpet with tile. I really can't see what's underneath that
carpet, to be completely honest with you. And Mr. Greene is correct,
Page 46
February 18, 2004
that he probably couldn't see it.
I'll either do one of two things: I'll find out that the floor is
absolutely terrible and eat the setting material myself and the time it
takes to do it, or call the customer and say, listen, we pulled up your
carpet, your pad and your tack strip and you have a major problem
under there, what do you want to do to correct it? You know, what do
you want me to do? I could not have possibly seen this. You've got
the customer that will say hey, buddy, you bid it, you've got a signed
contract, eat it. Then you've got the other customers that will say,
well, what do we need to do to get it right?
It sounds like Mr. and Mrs. Foster said do what you need do to
get it right. He had to put sub-floor underneath it, which was the right
thing to do. I do it a little different. I use Dura Rock. They used a
glue on latex. We use stick to plywood. I just think it's going to dry
out over time. I use Dura Rock.
The only thing I can see they did wrong is somebody
inexperienced, or that the floor got away from them. It probably was a
difficult floor to work with. Rectified tile actually should be easy to
work with because it's perfectly square. Somebody inexperienced got
on that job. And it has happened to me. You know, I've been in the
business 13 years and it's happened where I get a crew that the job got
away from them.
MR. ZACHARY: Okay, as far as the tile itself, as far as the
workmanship, did you--what did you observe as far as the evenness
of the tile?
MR. EHLEN: They're out probably a good eighth to a quarter in
some instances; I mean, highs and lows.
MR. ZACHARY: And you said that this rectified tile is made to
be installed with either no grout line or very thin grout line. Did you
notice any difference in the size of the grout lines that were there?
MR. EHLEN: They went from probably an eighth to almost half
in some areas.
Page 47
February 18, 2004
MR. ZACHARY: Okay. And did you notice that there were
some grout lines where the tiles were uneven that were installed
beveled or on an angle?
MR. EHLEN: That's what they did to try to correct the highs and
lows, they just tried to kind of snow drift the grout up to kind of mask
the situation, so to speak.
MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Did you notice any defect in the
materials?
MR. EHLEN: No.
MR. ZACHARY: Okay, so this was basically an installation that
was faulty. And would you consider the installation, as you saw it, to
meet the generally accepted standards in Collier County in relation to
the entire project?
MR. EHLEN: No.
MR. ZACHARY: I don't have any further questions for this
witness.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ehlen, I'd like to first -- oh, I'm
sorry, Mr. Greene, do you have any questions for-- MR. GREENE: I've got a statement.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You don't have any questions right
now? You can call him back up later, too, if you want. You'd just as
soon wait? It's up to you.
MR. GREENE: I'll just sit and wait.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
Mr. Ehlen, first of all, this board would like to thank you for your
time. We do have a great deal of difficulty finding other contractors
that will volunteer their time and -- like you have done and testify
against a fellow contractor.
MR. EHLEN: Which I don't like to do.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not a pleasant
situation, and we understand that, but we do appreciate you.
The other comment I had when I was listening to you is I'm a
Page 48
February 18, 2004
roofing contractor. Well, I have no idea what's going to be underneath
a roof when I tear it off. But everyone in my trade has hidden damage
clauses or clauses to protect them. I think you guys are flying blindly
here, and I would never take a job where if I tore it off and found all
sorts of problems that I was responsible.
MR. EHLEN: We try to, with a lot of things we do, to put
clauses on our contracts. Unforeseen problems with toilets or
sub-floors. We try to do all that stuff. But there are certain things that
as a consumer, you don't want to have a contract and have 30 clauses
underneath it when the guy next door or the other six guys aren't doing
that. So it makes people real suspicious if you have a clause for
everything; well, my contract's $10,000 --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you've got to cover yourself.
MR. EHLEN: We try to, but there's a certain extent where
people don't like those clauses.
I have two brothers as partners and we're constantly fighting that
battle on how many clauses do we put in to cover ourselves and still
have the people comfortable and sign a contract?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One or two and that's about it.
MR. EHLEN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You say in some places the differential
was a half inch?
MR. EHLEN:
about three-eights,
CHAIRMAN
MR. EHLEN:
CHAIRMAN
difference?
MR. EHLEN:
places.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. EHLEN: Honestly?
In the grout joints. The differential was probably
three-quarters.
DICKSON: Grout joints.
Right.
DICKSON: And the height, how much of a
Probably a good quarter in some certain -- some
What was the cause of that?
It looks like inexperience is all -- like I
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February 18, 2004
was saying, it happens to the best of us. Somebody on that job, and
I'm not blaming Mr. Greene, but somebody in his employment. The
floor got away from him and he should have stopped and said I need
somebody more experienced in.
We could use up to a three-quarter inch notched trowel. I mean,
we could make up a lot of differences in a floor to adjust it, not to
have the highs and lows, and somebody just didn't take that
precaution, didn't take the time to set it where it wasn't -- didn't have
those quarter inch highs and lows.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What would you say the percentage of
tiles that are high or low?
MR. EHLEN: They're probably about right at 75 percent. But
the problem is then when you take out the six tiles here that are high
and low, it affects the other four tiles around it. It's almost impossible
to fix that floor without tearing up the whole thing.
And it's unfortunate, and it may not sound quite right, but it's the
truth that it's --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So it's not reparable.
MR. EHLEN: In my opinion, absolutely not. And I think Mr.
Greene would probably agree at this point, you can't get rid of the
highs and lows without doing more damage to the surrounding areas.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. JOSLIN: What is the normal grout line that this tile should
have?
MR. EHLEN: With this tile, their particular tile, it's rectified. It
could have a 16th of an inch, if so desired. If they were told the 16th,
that's what it should have. There's no standard grout joint. I have
people that want a 16th; I have people that want a wide grout joint to
get that rustic look. But generally we use an eighth-inch grout joint.
MR. JOSLIN: Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there those
little-- I forget what they call those--
MR. EHLEN: Spacers?
Page 50
February 18, 2004
MR. JOSLIN: -- little spacers that go in? Wouldn't this -- if those
were used, which I don't know if they have or not, but wouldn't this
have rectified some of the problems as far as the distances they were
separated in different locations?
MR. EHLEN: Well, they couldn't have been used, but we have
16th inch. If I was doing a rectified tile like that -- and we do quite a
bit of it in marble -- we'll use a 16th inch spacer.
My standard installations, if you go on an Ehlen Floor Covering
job today, we use eighth-inch spaces. Everybody wants a tighter grout
joint. Sixteenth on a regular ceramic or porcelain is really not possible,
because regular ceramics and porcelains, they're not perfect. They're
not perfect. But rectified actually is perfect. It's made that way.
MR. JOSLIN: And also, in the application installation, for it to
have differences in heights to make it, I guess, look like a snow hill or
whatever, wouldn't a level of some sort being placed on the floor to
sort of check to see if there were highs and lows at the time the tile
was done or damp in this situation? Wouldn't this have told someone
that --
MR. EHLEN: Absolutely. I mean, with a level on that job site,
you could have corrected this whole situation.
MR. JOSLIN: Even while it was still wet, maybe.
MR. EHLEN: Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions?
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Ehlen, again, I'd like to reiterate the comment
from the Chair earlier. Thank you for your time and your efforts. And
I realize I've been on that side of a podium as a witness and I
understand how difficult it can be, especially against a fellow
contractor.
Having said that, question for you: On your rectified tile, the 19
by 19, you say it's a perfectly square tile. Is it also perfectly flat?
Page 51
February 18, 2004
MR. EHLEN: Supposed to be. It's really hard to get a tile
perfectly flat. It very well could be, that rectified piece they have. But
if they're out anything, it's a 16th. It's a minimal.
I mean, I've had -- I did work for an aerospace engineer, and he
took a piece of rectified material and put a square across it. And you
could slide a piece of paper underneath it. And he thought that was
unacceptable. That's what I've dealt with over the years.
That is unacceptable, sliding a piece of paper under a square from
comer to comer on a piece of rectified. But it's pretty much perfectly
level.
MR. LEWIS: Would you be comfortable then in saying that the
tile being, because of the size of the tile and it being a rectified tile,
that would not be part of the cause of the installation problem?
MR. EHLEN: It really wouldn't be part of the cause. I think the
inexperienced installation is part of the cause.
MR. LEWIS: Do you happen to know what the setting materials
were that were used in this particular job?
MR. EHLEN: No, but I'm sure it was a thin set material. It
wasn't set in mud, I know that, if that's what you're asking. It was a
thin set installation.
MR. LEWIS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: County redirect?
MR. ZACHARY: No, that's all the questions I have for this
witness.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Ehlen.
MR. ZACHARY: County has--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, hang on for a while, if you
would. Or just have a seat while we're with the county.
MR. ZACHARY: County has no more witnesses.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No more questions.
Page 52
February 18, 2004
I have -- I'd like to hear from Mr. Bartoe.
MR. BARTOE: Staff would just like to add that in your packet,
Page E-10 is Mr. Greene's letter that's a notification of the hearing. It
was not sent to him certified mail. I have the original here, which he
signed for on January 28th, 2004 in my office. He signed that he
received a copy from me, along with Composite Exhibit A on that
date, January 28th.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. JOSLIN: Also, No. E-10, just for the record, the date of the
actual certification of the mail says January 27th, 2204.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know if we'll be here then.
MR. BARTOE: Very top.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I may not.
MR. LLOYD: January 27th, 2204.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, Mr. Nonnenmacher might live
that long, but--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe, you saw the floor. I just
want to hear what you thought of it.
MR. BARTOE: Speaking -- I cannot speak as an expert, as I am
not an expert, but as a consumer, no, I did not like it at all. If it was
mine, I would not want to accept it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And what we've heard described, was
that accurate?
MR. BARTOE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And the reason I'm doing this
is in the absence of photographs, since we all know you and your
years here at the county, I just wanted to hear --
MR. BARTOE: Right, for 16 years now with investigations.
And I really feel this would have been -- as Mrs. Foster stated,
pictures wouldn't have done it justice. You would have had to have
seen it in person.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
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February 18, 2004
Mr. Greene?
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If I could have you come up here, sir.
Now, you can present your case. And we are quasi judicial, so if
you want to ask Mrs. Foster a question, or Mr. Ehlen -- am I saying
that right, Ehlen -- a question, what I need to do is just let me know
that and I'll bring them up to this podium over here, but I've got to
have them at the podium.
The floor is yours, sir.
MR. GREENE: Okay. Again, because there is a drop-off, there's
a swale in there, and I had three options to install that tile. One would
be to mud the floor, but again, that's going to raise that whole floor up
and project out 25 feet. You're going to have step-downs on either
side.
Second option would be to cut down where the garage door is,
cut it down probably half, three-quarters of an inch. Now, your joists,
they're two-by-four laid horizontally. So in doing that, you're going to
weaken the whole thing up.
So the third option I took upon myself was to put down
quarter-inch solid core plywood. Held it down every six, eight inches,
left a quarter of an inch grout joint -- or expansion joints, and I used a
multi-flex thin set on top of it.
In their dining room, they've got a marble floor. And you see a
big crack where the whole thing is -- there's a swale right in through
there, runs through the whole house.
I think Mr. Bartoe will agree with me that the joists split right
there and went the opposite way. So there's like a different layout
there as far as the sub-floor.
MR. JOSLIN: One second. This crack you're speaking of, is this
in the existing home -- existing tile that's already set in the house?
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: Not something that you were putting the tile
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February 18, 2004
over?
MR. GREENE: No. No, that was left there. And as a matter of
fact, if you go over that marble, there's a lot of lippage (sic) in there
also. That's apparently accepted. And it's a 12 by 12. You go over
the 19-inch tile, it's going to escalate that a little bit more. But again,
because of the configuration of the joists, there's ups and downs.
I did the best I could to, you know, take care of what had to be
done. And I gave her the opportunity to point out the pieces that she
didn't like. I did the best I could to take care of that. And I said, "Is
there anything else you want to do?" And she said no, and she paid
me in full.
As a matter of fact, she had me come back and do a back splash
-- started doing the back splash. She told me what the tile was. I went
to see the tile shop that morning, picked up the tile, I brought it down
there, I started installing it. And she came in and said no, it's too gray.
So I had to tear it off, wash it all down, put it back in the truck,
wasted a day. And she got upset because I had charged a $50
restocking charge, which would come out of my pocket.
MR. JOSLIN: Was this tile that she said picked out originally to
set the back splash?
MR. GREENE: This is tile that she had picked it out. Didn't
even know what it was until that morning when I went to pick it up.
MR. JOSLIN: You can continue. I have no more questions.
MR. GREENE: I felt what I did was generally accepted
standards what I had to work with. I did the best I could. And I
honored the proposal that I had 100 percent. And, you know,
obviously if she's going to be upset about things, she wouldn't have
paid me. Again, I gave her the opportunity to take care of anything
that she didn't like. I don't have a witness here, but I have a fellow
there that he can, you know, verify that.
MR. LLOYD: Over the three months of the installation, did you
call them periodically and tell them the concern you had about the
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February 18, 2004
installation of the tile?
MR. GREENE: No, I was talking with the supervisor and I
thought that that was his job.
MR. LLOYD: The supervisor, being the painter?
MR. GREENE: The painter.
And as far as, you know, me not getting the job done, well, if
you've got the painter in there, I can't work. If you've got a carpenter
in there with his table saw set up and everything, I can't do any
grouting, you know, so you can't -- you can't have two or three trades
in there when the tile's setting up. It's got to set up at least overnight.
So I had to pull off, take on other jobs.
MR. LLOYD: And at no time did you notify the Fosters of this
concern over the three-month period?
MR. GREENE: N0, I didn't. No. I just did the best I could,
because I was being pressured from the painter to get the kitchen done
so he could get the cabinets put in there.
MR. JOSLIN: I think that was expressed by Mrs. Foster too that
they -- she hired independent contractors so they could work around
each other. So I can understand--
MR. GREENE: But it's hard when you're doing tile work,
because you can't walk on it right away. And then -- you know, I did
the best I could to coordinate my schedule and their schedule. MR. BESWICK: Who did the actual work?
MR. GREENE: I was there probably 75 percent of the time. I
did have another guy there that was working for me. He's my
son-in-law, basically.
MR. BESWICK: How much experience does he have?
MR. GREENE: He's got probably three years experience. He's
still doing tile work now. But again, we're trying -- you put the floor
down and if there's any lippage on there, yeah, you've got to pull it up
and put a little more pins underneath there and try to get it as flat as
possible. Again, because of the substrate.
Page 56
February 18, 2004
It's an older home. And the undulation through where the joists
are, they call it a Key West joist or something. I'm not sure -- Mr.
Ehlen will know what they call it. It's a two-by-four horizontally laid
and, 16 inches down below you have a two-by-four and then you have
gracen (phonetic) coming in through there, which makes the floor do
this. That's why I put down the quarter-inch plywood. Tile Council
of America states that you've got to have inch, inch and a quarter
substrate. So that's why I went that route.
Again, the first installation process
would be doing the mud work. But that is going to be out because of
the height. You can't have that. Second would be cutting down a
joist. And if you've got a two-by-four as your upper joist, you can't do
that. So I opted for the third way to do it.
MR. JOSLIN: What was the thickness of the setting materials
that you used?
MR. GREENE: The thickness?
MR. JOSLIN: The thickness that was actually put down when
you laid the tile down.
MR. GREENE: It was probably a half inch.
MR. JOSLIN: You put a half inch of material under the pile?
MR. GREENE: Yeah. Normally I go three-eighths, something
like that. But going half inch gives you a little more stability, you
know, so it gives you a little more workmanship in trying to get those
joints as straight as possible. But again, that floor, you know, 20 years
old?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Greene.
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How long have you been in business?
MR. GREENE: About 25 years.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Twenty-five. Here in Collier?
MR. GREENE: No, 15 year here in Collier.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Never had any complaints?
Page 57
February 18, 2004
job?
MR. GREENE: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is' this a good job?
MR. GREENE: I did the best I could.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But what's the end result?
Is it a bad
MR. GREENE: I don't think so. I think it's something that
would be accepted. It's just something that they're very upset with me
and they're -- you know, they've got more money than I'll ever have,
and they're just, you know, upset.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Folks, stay quiet and quit motioning
me. No one interrupted you when you were talking. Okay? We
understand each other?
MR. GREENE: Again, I gave her the opportunity to take care of
the things that she didn't like. I spent three days there popping out
things. And the bottom line is I said, "Are you happy with this?"
"Yes, what do I owe you?"
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But if this was your house, would you
be happy with it? What would you have done differently? I know if
MR. GREENE: Again, because of that downhill in the hallway
right there, you know, to be honest with you, I don't know what I
would have done.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But it's not just the hallway. I mean,
you can't stand on the hallway, okay?
MR. GREENE: But that's where the whole job starts, right there.
And it comes down and project that out. You know, you don't want
to have a curb stepping from the dining room into -- you know, up into
the kitchen area. And the same thing with the bedroom in the back of
the house stepping up, you don't want that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you ever had a job that laid like
this one? The end result?
MR. GREENE: I've had some that had a little bit of lippage in
Page 58
February 18, 2004
there, you know, yes. Like I say, in their dining room they got now,
there's lippage in there also. And that's accepted.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But what you're telling me with that
answer is you've never had a job that had the deflections like this one,
right?
MR. GREENE: I don't think it's that bad, no, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So this is the worst one you've
had.
MR. GREENE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't let me put words in your mouth.
MR. GREENE: Well, according to them, yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: According to you. I'm talking to you
as a professional.
MR. GREENE:
with.
I did the best I could with what I had to work
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But this one didn't run well.
What could you have done differently to keep this from
happening, in hindsight?
MR. GREENE: I don't really know. I mean, I was I using
spacers on there, and I don't know for a fact that all that stuff is cut
exactly square.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you have done a
Dura-Crete?
MR. GREENE: That wouldn't make any difference as far as the
up and down.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah.
MR. GREENE: Or metal lathe. You've got three different
people here or two different people that, you know, did the different
proposal. And again, I had three options, and I opted for the latter,
you know, using quarter inch. And that is what--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: My real question for you that is
coming down the final question that I've got for you is because we
Page 59
February 18, 2004
have to make some decision up here today -- MR. GREENE: I understand.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- why didn't you ever pick up the
phone and call these people and say we've got a problem? Did you --
MR. GREENE: I was in contact with the supervisor, and I didn't
think it was my duty to do that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't cop
out on me like that. You contracted with the homeowners. You did
not contract with the general contractor. If that was the general
contractor, that would be fine. Your contract was with the
homeowners and they signed the contract.
So why did you not call these people and say we've got a
problem, instead of just continuing on?
MR. GREENE: Because I was being pushed by painters, paying
the cabinet guys to get the floor done. Okay, I may be at fault for not
doing that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But your responsibility was to the
homeowner.
MR. GREENE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, I would have picked up the
phone and we've got a problem here, it's not going to turn out well.
Instead you just charged on and now we're where we are today.
Whereas if you would have made that phone call, maybe we wouldn't
be where we are today. You've been doing this long enough to know
better.
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because you already told me the job
is one of the worst ones you've had.
MR. GREENE: One of the worse substrates I had to work with.
I did the best I could and I thought it was generally acceptable as far
as the installation process.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next time you call, right?
Page 60
February 18, 2004
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's all the questions I have.
MR. LLOYD: I have a question. To make the floor right, what
has to be done?
MR. GREENE: Again, I don't really know. I don't really know.
Because you've got existing elevations and then a foyer and also in the
dining room, so -- and the floor does this. I mean, I have no idea. I
mean, unless you cut out that whole section, dropped it down, poured
the slab, and then built it back up to the height of where that garage
door is. But then again, you're bringing it up above the step of the
lanai. The step is right there and you'd be about 10 inches, roughly.
And that is not code, 1 O-inch step, 1 O-inch rise.
MR. LLOYD: So the consumer, in order to get this floor fixed,
you know, relies heavily on professionals, yourself being one. And
they wouldn't have a clue as to what needs to be done, and you say
you don't. So what option does the homeowner now have with this
floor, in your opinion?
MR. GREENE: I don't really know the answer to that question.
I don't know.
MR. LLOYD:
MR.
you went
MR.
MR.
there?
Thank you.
JOSLIN: You gave an estimate for this job I guess when
to inspect the job and you spoke to the homeowners?
GREENE: Yes.
JOSLIN: You physically looked at what when you went
MR. GREENE: What I saw was tile on the floor, carpet on the
floor.
MR. JOSLIN: Carpet on the floor.
MR. GREENE: And the tile that was there was an eight-inch
tile, fairly half-inch joint, cushion edge, rounded edge on there. So I
started busting that up and I found out that there's no underlayment on
the top of the sub-floor. And then when I pulled up the carpet, you
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February 18, 2004
know, there again there's some spots, but I thought I could build that
up by using setting material.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay, that's what I was driving at. So in essence,
then what you've done is you gave an estimate to go and do this job,
and then when you actually got into the job and you tore off the
carpeting and you tore off the tile, then you found the problem.
Again, going back to what Mr. Dickson says, that would have
been the perfect time for you at that point to realize that there would
be a problem if you tried to set this, but you chose to continue with the
job, basing it on your expertise, and continued to set the tile. Now it's
come out wrong, and now we have to make a decision here as far as if
it was a correct decision.
MR. GREENE: Again, I did the best I could with what I had to
work with.
MR. JOSLIN: I kind of think that you could have saved yourself
a lot of aggravation and you wouldn't be here today if that phone call
had been made to these people. They don't seem like un -- what's the
word I'm looking for, uncooperative --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Unreasonable.
MR. JOSLIN: -- unreasonable people that if you'd have told
them that we have a problem here and we need to do something else,
we need to cover some options that I need to do in order to make this
come out like you want it. Instead you chose to continue that job. And
unfortunately, as a contractor, once you accept it, you own it.
That's the only questions I have, I guess.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else?
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Greene?
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
MR. LEWIS: There was a mention of the grout joints being
anywhere from one-eighth of an inch to almost a half an inch, if not a
half an inch. Do you know of any of those locations? And if so,
where are those?
Page 62
February 18, 2004
MR. GREENE: They may be -- they may vary a little bit. But
again, you get a floor that's off a little bit, it may open it up. I don't
believe there's anything close to half an inch. Not even close. And I
don't believe there's anything close to being a quarter of an inch as far
as lippage. You know, I was using
spacers as we were putting it in.
MR. LEWIS: You used eighth-inch spacers?
MR. GREENE: I think it was three-sixteenths.
MR. LEWIS: Which would expand the size.
MR. GREENE: Which would expand the size. And again,
because of the undulation of the floor, a little wider joint may be a
little more forgiving as far as the ups and downs.
MR. LEWIS: Speaking of the uneven floor, when you
discovered this after tearing out the carpet and tile, you made the
statement, correct me if I'm wrong, that you took one of three options
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
MR. LEWIS: -- of trying to compensate for the substrate, and
that being putting down quarter-inch tile on plywood. MR. GREENE: Yes.
MR. LEWIS: Why or do you actually -- do you think that that
was the proper mode of repair? And at what time, or did you ever
think that maybe that wasn't enough in order to compensate for the
substrate pavers?
MR. GREENE: No, again, the three options were mudding it,
cutting down through the sub-floor, cutting down through the joists, or
going with quarter-inch plywood, solid core, nailed quarter-inch
expansion joints.
MR. LEWIS: Okay. So by choosing the plywood glue-on, this
has been, I'll call it, a repair or a fix for uneven substrate that you've
used in prior instances?
MR. GREENE: No, it's basically there because Tile Council of
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February 18, 2004
America states you've got to have an inch, inch-and-a-quarter
substrate, which is your sub-floor and your underlayment. And again,
I've never seen a joist system like this.
MR. LEWIS: You've never seen a floor joist?
MR. GREENE: A joist system like this. Two-by-fours laid
horizontally, subfloor going on top of two-by-fours. And then you've
got another one sixteen inches down here with cross braces.
MR. LEWIS: Two-by-four cross braces.
MR. GREENE: Two-by-four cross braces.
MR. LEWIS: It's called a floor joist. It's a floor truss system
that's engineered by an engineering company -- MR. GREENE: Okay, well--
MR. LEWIS: -- in the State of Florida, and they're very
common. So I'm surprised that you haven't seen one, but that's fine.
MR. GREENE: Mostly the floors are concrete down here.
MR. LEWIS: Okay. So getting back to the plywood, the reason
you put the plywood down was just to create a thickness for the
substrate as per the tile manufacturer's recommendations or
installation recommendations not to create a level or an even floor?
MR. GREENE: Yes.
MR. LEWIS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else?
Mr. Zachary?
MR. ZACHARY: I think that you've asked all the questions that
I was prepared to ask. I don't have any further questions at this point.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: At this point, if you would, just have a
seat for just a minute. Unless -- you have anything else?
MR. GREENE: No, I just think I fulfilled --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You'll get a chance to make a closing
statement.
Is it appropriate to do -- before we do closing statements, Mr.
Neale, I want to ask Mr. Ehlen a question.
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February 18, 2004
MR. NEALE: You certainly can.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that okay?
Mr. Ehlen, would you come up to this microphone. You've
already been sworn in. I'm reading on your proposal which, by the
way, let me make a comment about both of your proposals. Neither
one of them have your license number on it. State statute -- I'm sorry,
but we're the guys that do that, okay?
MR. NONNENMACHER: I object, irrelevant.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I know.
And I'm not chastising -- if you through all of them, but
technically it's supposed to be on your proposal, too, okay? And
you've really got to change yours.
MR. GREENE: I just became incorporated, so this is what I had
at that particular time, so --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, because there's a
comment on yours that Workers' Compensation and liability will be
taken out by blank. I've just never seen that one. Get rid of that one.
But anyway, you've got on your proposal, Mr. Ehlan, installation
cannot be guaranteed over a plywood substrate floor. And then you
go on to tell me how you're going to put down that --
MR. EHLEN: Dura Rock.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- Dura Rock.
But basically, what you're saying is even with Dura Lock (sic).
MR. EHLEN: Dura Rock.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Dura Rock, you're not guaranteeing it.
MR. EHLEN: Yes, I will.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You would with Dura Rock?
MR. EHLEN: If I'm over Dura Rock, I will guarantee the
installation. It's just what they asked me to do here was take up -- get
a quote for taking up that tile and going over the substrate that was put
down. And I just -- and a lot of flooring contractors still believe in
putting, you know, a multi-purpose thin set over plywood sub-floor. I
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February 18, 2004
do not. I want Dura Rock.
Rock. It's concrete board.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
going to be --
MR. EHLEN: 18,000.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. EHLEN: Correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
because --
MR. EHLEN: Correct.
I think my thin set sticks better to Dura
But I will guarantee it.
Okay, so your total price is really
-- $18,190.
But what's at issue here is the 12,190,
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- it's something we should have
looked at before we probably laid all the tile, this $6,000 job. MR. EHLEN: Exactly.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And if you do the Dura Rock
-- there's also one in roofing called Dura Lock. MR. EHLEN: Oh, okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think much of it.
But this Dura Rock, if you do that, you will guarantee it?
Absolutely.
DICKSON: And would you do this over all
MR. EHLEN:
CHAIRMAN
plywood floors?
MR. EHLEN:
Yeah. I did. Now, there's other companies that
use wire lathe. There's other companies that just put down another
half-inch of plywood. I believe the plywood will dry out and thin set
will lose its bond over time.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What do they do up north?
Everything up there is plywood.
MR. EHLEN: A lot of them up north, a lot of the old timers will
use wire lathe. They'll screw wire lathe with tar paper on the back,
and that's what they do, and it works fine. I just think Dura Rock's a
whole lot easier, it gives your floor a little more strength, you know,
you offset the joints. It's just what I believe. I've been doing it for 13
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February 18, 2004
years. I'm not a guru at it, but I've never had a problem using Dura
Rock on wood sub-floors. Although we don't run into it that much.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, you don't down here.
MR. EHLEN: He's absolutely correct, I might do 10 Dura Rock
or over wood sub-floor a year where I do probably 20 jobs a week in
condominiums and houses that are all concrete subfloors. But they
don't deal with crack suppression membrane up north either, like we
do with our concrete substrates down here. So it's just different
installation techniques.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody else have any
questions of him?
MR. LEWIS: Yes.
Mr. Ehlen, on your proposal, you've got $7,475, which is
approximately 1,150 square foot at 6.50 allowance? MR. EHLEN: Correct.
MR. LEWIS: Is that a close estimate to what is down there?
MR. EHLEN: Yes. What I did here, in all honesty, was just try
to get him a number together. I would love to see Mr. Greene fix that
job, tear it up and redo it and me have absolutely nothing to do with it
and not be standing in front of everybody here either, to be honest
with you. I'm not looking for the job by any means.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I understand.
MR. LEWIS: We appreciate that, we're just
looking for some information.
MR. EHLEN: Sure. It's a very close price.
MR. LEWIS: Okay. And at 6.50 a square foot for the allowance
number, do you feel that's a commensurate number that would pay for
the rectified tile and the installation as -- if this was not a problem and
you did go down to do this job for the first time? MR. EHLEN: Yes.
MR. LEWIS: Approximately how much would you think it
would cost to -- if this was back to square one or day one, how much
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February 18, 2004
would it approximately cost to remove the carpet and the existing tile
that was there? Would you have any idea to that?
MR. EHLEN: I don't have the square footage that way. Minimal
amount of money. $500 to take out the -- maybe a little more, because
I don't know how much tile was there. I wasn't there in the beginning
to see if there was 400 feet of tile in the kitchen or 100 feet. Generally
it's about 2 to $3.00 a square foot to tear out. We all have different
rates. I was probably on the high side. I would take $3.00 a square
foot. That's what I charge to tear out. Mr. Greene may charge $2.00 a
square foot.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It pretty well confirms to me that you
guys are pretty close on prices, because even though with his total
being 11,800 with the change orders, you're 12,190. But instead of
pulling up carpet in some cases, you're pulling up tile.
MR. EHLEN: I think I'm a little low, actually, as opposed to
what he got originally. Because he was just tearing up a lot of carpet
and very little tile.
MR. LEWIS: Yeah, he would have been at -- if we estimated
$1,000 for removal at day one, he would have been around $8,500 for
the complete job, versus 11,000.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Again, thank you for your time. I
appreciate that.
At this point, since no one had redirect with questions on you, I
mean, you're free to go, you're welcome to stay, do whatever you
want. But again, we appreciate you.
MR. EHLEN: I've got to get back to work.
MR. NEALE: We should make sure that Mr. Greene, has -- if he
does have any questions for Mr. Ehlen, that he does ask--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have any questions for him,
Mr. Greene?
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February 18, 2004
MR. GREENE:
floor, to level it off?.
answer.
MR. GREENE: Yes, I do.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, come back up and let's do them
now.
MR. GREENE: How would you propose to take care of that
floor, to level it off?.
MR. EHLEN: Excuse me?
How would you propose to take care of that
The question they asked, I didn't know the
MR. EHLEN: After I got everything up --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need for you to talk into the mic.
MR. EHLEN: After I got everything up, I would get a straight
edger out like you did and see if it needed to be mudded. There's an
outside chance that that floor may need to be mudded. Messing with
the floor joists is -- that's not even an option, because that's structural.
I mean, you're not going to touchthose. The floor could have been
mudded.
The height differences that Mr. Greene's talking about, we deal
with that all the time. I do a lot of custom villas on Marco. We put a
lot of marble in it. I raise floors an inch and a half on a weekly basis.
And the contracts have two choices: They either put stringers in or
dead men in the bedrooms and put plywood sub-floors, or we just mud
those floors up also to get the height right. So the height differences
in the house are easily rectified.
The only mistake that Mr. Greene had was not calling him and
saying here's what we need to do. We need to do one or two things.
MR. GREENE: But my question is to make the existing floor
level with a new floor that you're putting in, and if you're projecting
that three-quarter-inch drop and six foot, taking that out, you're going
to have a curb right there. How are you going to take care of that?
MR. EHLEN: Honestly?
MR. GREENE: Yes.
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February 18, 2004
MR. EHLEN: I don't think you have a three-quarter-inch drop at
six foot. That's -- I was there, I don't think you have that. And I
would use the half-inch notch trowel, I would use a three-quarter-inch
notch trowel. I mean, that would help. But I don't believe there's a
three-quarter inch drop. And I don't want to get in a spitting match
with you, that's not why I'm here. I just -- I was there. And if you
could show me a three-quarter-inch drop at six feet. It's not there.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions?
MR. JOSLIN: This three-quarter-inch drop that we're speaking
of, real quickly, this is a difference between the -- where the marble
tile floor was and where you're transitioning from that floor to the new
floor?
MR. GREENE: No, it's where you walk up the stairs from the
garage. It's raised, like a basement, so to speak. And you walk in that
door from the garage and it drops down. And again, you'd take that
drop-down right there, there is a drop down, and you project that out, I
think it's like 25 feet to the back of the house. You know, mudding
that is going to raise everything up to make it level. You can't have
the floor tilting down. You're going to have all your baseboard tilting
down and everything. You know, to make it level you have to come
off of your high point. You know, you get a transit and find your high
point and that's where it's going to be, right there by that door. So
that's why, you know, mud would not work, cutting the joists down
wouldn't work. The only option I had was a quarter-inch plywood.
And I tried to build it up.
And again, where the dining room is, there's a crack and you see
where that has got a swale to it. In trying to build this stuff up, you
know, I mean, it fought me for a while. And I did the best I could with
what I had to work with.
MR. JOSLIN: Is this the same thing you saw on your
inspection?
MR. EHLEN: Yeah, there seems to be a high floor joist there.
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February 18, 2004
Where he's talking about, I don't think it's three-quarters.
Another thing that could have been done is using the quarter-inch
glue-on on one side of it and then not putting the glue-on right over
top of it. What I've done in houses, I did one a couple of weeks ago
where he had a crown floor joist and we Dura Rock'd the whole floor.
And the crown caused a bow in the floor, probably only about
two-foot wide. The floor joist is running this way and the bow is out
about two foot. I ran my Dura Rock about a foot half from each side
of that and bridged that with thin set so my thin set went to nothing.
MR. JOSLIN: I understand what you're saying.
MR. EHLEN: And I -- you're able to compensate those things.
You really are. It's what we do. It's not what we run into every day,
but I did it a couple weeks ago on a house in Marco. And no doubt,
it's there and you just have to --
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Ehlen, one other question.
MR. EHLEN: Sure.
MR. LEWIS: Just as -- in what you just explained to us, isn't that
a common practice to do that? Sometimes it's referred to as floating a
floor or floating a floatings material?
MR. EHLEN: I absolutely do quite a bit, even in concrete
substrates. I do contractors that want the floors completely floated
before I even lay a piece of crack suppression paper. You know, they
don't want me mudding things up. They don't want using
three-quarter-inch trowel. They want me to find the high spot and go
off of that and float their floors. Everyone has a different way of doing
it.
MR. LEWIS: Thank you.
MR. GREENE: Again, going back to the existing marble floor,
if you put half-inch on there plus the tile, you bring it up
three-quarters, maybe seven-eighths of an inch. MR. EHLEN: Right.
MR. GREENE: Again, you're going to have a step-up there.
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February 18, 2004
MR. EHLEN: Where?
MR. GREENE: From the dining room to the kitchen.
MR. EHLEN: You could always address those. You're probably
correct, by the time you put the half-inch, let's say you could still use a
three-quarter-inch notched trowel on the tile, their -- the Fosters would
have to understand that you may have transition issues. No doubt
about it.
I agree with you there, that you're going to have transition issues.
You are going to have transition issues at your bedroom door where
the carpet went in, guaranteed. But those are the things that you can
take a transition at a doorway and we float them out six foot. Some of
my contractors say, "You're not floating it six foot, I want that hole 12
by 16 room dry packed and raised up an inch and a half. It all
depends on what people want to pay for.
MR. GREENE: But there again, going into the lanai where the
steps are, you've got code as far as the rise on your steps, and that's got
to be within seven, eight inches. And that would have brought that up
above that, and that would have been cool.
You know, I mean, there's no permits pulled on this house at all
and it's something that I didn't have an inspector come out there to go
over these details, so I just, you know, did the best I could with what I
had to work with.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions for
Mr. Ehlen?
MR. GREENE: I don't.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're free to go.
MR. EHLEN: I'm free? Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The permit issue, I'm sure county
caught that. But there should have been a permit job on this job,
shouldn't there?
MR. BARTOE: Not the job I was there to investigate.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's right. Well, you don't pull a
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February 1 g, 2004
permit for painting.
MR. BARTOE: No, tile job.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tile job. Yeah, you don't pull a
permit for that. You don't pull a permit for cabinets.
MR. BARTOE: Everything was done when I was there.
MR. GREENE: Plumbing and electrical you've got to pull
permits for.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I wouldn't look to -- I'm kind of
discounting the whole comment, because I wouldn't look to an
inspector for advice in that area anyway.
MR. GREENE: No, not in the tile process, but because of the
height of the steps, you know, I've had to, you know, be within
three-sixteenth of an inch as far as rise and tread -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I understand.
MR. GREENE: -- and doing it that way. And I don't have to pull
permits for tile, no. But if you've got an inspector down there, you can
just run that by him and say this is what we've got here, it's not going
to work.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Get you to have a seat again.
Mr. Zachary, I need for-- closing arguments.
MR. ZACHARY: Well, I'll do a quick summation. I don't want
to go back over all the testimony, but you heard Mrs. Foster come up
and tell you about the condition of the tile when she got back from
Kentucky and inspected that, that there was -- she could run a piece of
paper under the tile, that there was no mastic, that there were uneven
tiles, uneven grout. The chairs catch as they try to pull them in and
out from the tables. That it created a dangerous condition; that she
considers that the unevenness of the tile is actually enough that it
would be dangerous.
Mr. Ehlen came and he also confirmed that there was uneven tile,
that the grout lines ran from an eighth-inch to a half an inch. That in
order to compensate for some of the uneven tile, I believe he called it
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February 18, 2004
a snow drifted in grout to bevel in the angle. So he's confirmed that
that -- with his experience, that he agrees with the homeowner that the
contractor failed to correct what he considered to be faulty
workmanship in the job, and that it did not meet the -- did not meet the
generally accepted standards in Collier County in relationship to the
project. That the -- Mr. Greene told you that the sub-floor
undulations, when he initially got up here, were the cause of the
problem. But I think that everybody probably agrees with that, that
that undulating substrata has caused the problem.
But he also admitted that when he added the quarter-inch Ruan
(phonetic) plywood to that substrata, he was only trying to correct a
thickness problem to meet a code, not trying to correct that undulation
in the sub-floor.
It was also brought out that that would have been the time to get
a hold of the homeowners and say we've got a real problem here.
We've got -- after he said that he noticed that there was a drop and
there would be discrepancies in the levelness of the floor, that would
have been the time to get ahold of the homeowner and tell them that
they had a problem. But he also said that at no time did he to do that.
The homeowners have said that, too.
So in close, you've heard testimony, and also a confirmation from
Mr. Bartoe that the job has faulty workmanship and that he attempted
to correct it but at this time it's still not corrected and the homeowners
are still out thousands of dollars and the job has not been done
correctly.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Greene?
MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can ! get to you come back up and
make whatever closing statement you want to make?
MR. GREENE: I guess the only thing I could say is I gave the
Fosters every opportunity to have me take care of whatever had to be
done. And they pointed out areas that they were unhappy with. I did
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February 18, 2004
the best I could before I was paid. And paying me in full was saying
that they're going to accept the job. That's all I can say. That's up to
the board to -- that's all I can say.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you.
Mr. Zachary, anything?
MR. ZACHARY: Just on rebuttal, the county would be asking
that the Fosters be made whole, that the restitution be paid, or the cost
of removing and redoing the job to correct the faulty workmanship
and the substandard installation that's in their house at this time.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, that ends the public hearing. If
no one has anything else, I need a motion to close the public hearing.
MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion to close the public hearing.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second?
MR. LLOYD: Second.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, just for everyone's
edification, that's what I explained before. Now we're going to discuss
the case, and basically you're just eavesdropping.
MR. NEALE: And what I'd like to do prior to that is just sort of
lay out for the board-- and I think everyone here has heard this before,
but I would like to reiterate it because we don't necessarily see a case
every hearing.
This board shall ascertain in its deliberations that the fundamental
fairness and due process have been afforded to the respondent.
However, pursuant to the Collier County Ordinance and Florida
Statutes, the formal Rules of Evidence, as set out in the Florida
Statutes, do not apply.
The board shall exclude from its deliberations irrelevant,
immaterial and cumulative testimony, and shall admit and consider all
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February 18, 2004
other evidence of a type commonly relied upon by a reasonably
prudent person in the conduct of their affairs. This is whether or not
the evidence so admitted would be
admissible in a court of law or equity.
As noted, hearsay may be used to explain or supplement any
other evidence in this matter. Hearsay by itself is not sufficient to
support a finding in this case or any other case unless it would be
admissible over objection in a civil court.
The standard of proof in this type of case, wherein the respondent
may lose his privileges to practice his profession is that the evidence
presented by the complainant must prove the complainant's case in a
clear and convincing matter. This burden of proof on the complainant
is a larger burden than the preponderance of the evidence standards set
for civil cases.
The standards establish sanctions other than those affecting his
license is that of a preponderance of the evidence, or the same as that
would be found in a civil case.
The standards of evidence are to be weighed solely as to the
charge set out in the complaint as (sic) Ordinance 90-105, Section
4.1.10 as amended.
The charge made is that the contractor, Mr. Greene, failed to
promptly correct faulty workmanship or promptly replace faulty
materials, installed contrary to provisions of the construction contract.
Faulty workmanship means work that is not commenced, not
continued or not completed in accordance with all specifications of the
applicable written agreement.
Fault workmanship includes any material flaws in the quality
and/or quantity of the unfinished or finished work product, including
any item that does not function properly as a part of the entire project.
If there is no written agreement provision regarding the specific
faulty workmanship issue, faulty workmanship exists if the work,
process, product or part thereof does not meet generally accepted
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February 18, 2004
standards in Collier County in relation to the entire project.
Faulty workmanship does not include matters of aesthetics,
unless the aesthetically related item clearly violates a written contract
specification directly related thereto.
In order to support a finding that the respondent is in violation of
the ordinance, this board must find facts that show the violations were
actually committed by the respondent as a license holder. The facts
must also show to a clear and convincing standard the legal conclusion
that the respondent was in violation of that section.
These charges are the only ones that the board may decide upon,
as they are the only ones to which the respondent has had the
opportunity to prepare a defense.
The decision made by this board shall be stated orally at this
hearing and is effective upon being read by the board.
The respondent, if found in violation, has certain appeal rights to
this board, the courts and the State Construction Industry Licensing
Board, as set out in the ordinance in the Florida Statutes and Rules.
If the board is unable to issue a decision immediately following
this hearing because of questions of law or other matters of such a
nature that a decision may not be made at this hearing, the board may
withhold its decision until a subsequent meeting.
The board shall vote upon the evidence presented on all areas,
and if it finds the respondent in violation, adopt the administrative
complaint. The board shall also make findings of fact and conclusions
of law in support of the charges set out in the administrative
complaint.
And you may now go ahead.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Mr. Neale, we've got two
versions of the order up here. And I think this one that starts off with
an underlined -- or starts off with order, is that the newest one?
MR. NEALE: That -- let me take a look and see.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think this is the more recent one,
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February 18, 2004
maybe. Is that the current one?
MR. NEALE: This is a recommendation from the state.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Basically I should first read the order,
right?
We'll use this one. Discussion, gentlemen?
MR. LLOYD: My opinion is that Mr. Greeneneeds to give
restitution to the Fosters for the amount to correct the floor to a proper
condition. It looks like one estimate is at $12,000. I think he needs to
pay for that floor to be done properly.
MR. LEWIS: Actually, just a point of correction there. I'm
sorry, Richard.
MR. JOSLIN: Go ahead.
MR. LEWIS: It's $18,000 if we use Mr. Ehlen's proposal.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but the Dura Rock was over
and above, which he never did anyway. MR. LEWIS: Right.
MR. JOSLIN: There's another contractor here. You saw that,
right?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, there's another proposal.
MR. NEALE: If I may, at this point, the board is just -- should
be just considering whether he did violate the ordinance as written.
The matter of sanctions will be -- should be discussed subsequent to
actually determining if he is in violation. Looks like that train may
have already left the station.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Neale.
MR. LLOYD: Sorry.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Never go against him.
MR. LLOYD: I believe that Mr. Greene did in fact violate.
MR. NEALE: So what we would need is -- for clarification,
what we would need is a motion from the board to be voted upon that
-- whether he's in violation or not.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I understand. We're getting there.
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February 18, 2004
MR. NEALE: Yeah. Subsequent to that would be the discussion
and vote upon the violations.
And then the third step that would have to be taken is whether
there would be any action recommended to the Florida Construction
Industry Licensing Board.
MR. LLOYD: Thank you.
Are you looking for a motion?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm looking for a motion.
MR. LLOYD: I'm going to make a motion that we find Mr.
Greene in violation.
MR. LEWIS: Of?.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Of?.
MR. LLOYD: Of fault -- 4.1.10 -- can I just use that?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, that's all you need.
MR. LLOYD: 4.1.10.
MR. NEALE: And if you could add to the motion that also the
board adopts the administrative complaint as presented.
MR. LLOYD: As presented?
MR. NEALE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead and do that.
MR. LLOYD: So stated.
I don't know that I have a copy of that, that's my concern.
MR. NEALE: It was the file that was with your packet.
MR. LLOYD: Just read this whole paragraph?
MR. JOSLIN: That's it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll do that in the order, right?
MR. NEALE: Yeah, it can just be incorporated. And Mr.
Dickson usually takes care of that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll do that in the
order, that's okay.
MR. LLOYD: Itve never done that before.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No.
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February 18, 2004
I have a motion. Do I have a second?
MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, second.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those -- oh, now we do discussion
before we vote.
MR. NEALE: But not to discuss sanctions at this point.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not to discuss sanctions.
MR. LLOYD: Whether or not he's --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's plain and simple. It's just a job that
went bad.
MR. LEWIS: I hate to play Monday morning quarterback, but --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I do, too.
MR. LEWIS: -- it's like you said, plain and simple, the job went
bad. The man, on his behalf, he did try to do something for the job but
I think it's just at the point where it's too bad, too much. So not seeing
the job, I hate to say that, but just from the testimony of the others, I'd
have to agree that it's faulty workmanship. It's just one of those
things.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And yeah. And we've all had jobs go
bad.
MR. LEWIS: Not me.
MR. JOSLIN: It's --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Boy, you better pound on wood.
MR. JOSLIN: Your nose just grew an inch, bud.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And he did agree that it's one of the
worst jobs he's had. And it's unfortunate he didn't stop and call.
MR. LEWIS: Very true.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And he knows that as well. But it's
just an unfortunate deal. I mean, he didn't abandon the job, he didn't
have liens filed. He did everything. It just went bad. We're not
hearing about adhesion, which is most of our tile cases. Tiles popping
up.
MR. LEWIS: It did kind of alert me when Mrs. Foster said she
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February 18, 2004
was able to slip paper six inches underneath of the tile. Especially
around the edges, that's a little bit too much. And maybe that problem
hasn't presented itself yet because of the other problems, I don't
know. But I agree, I think it's workmanship at this point, at least for
the things we've been presented. I agree with the motion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll call for a vote. All those in favor
of the motion?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to do this?
MR. JOSLIN: I don't care. Either way.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. JOSLIN: The order.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
MR. JOSLIN: I'm sorry.
Have at it.
This cause came --
First we still have to say it.
Contractor Licensing Board of Collier
County, Florida. Board of County Commissioners, Collier County,
Florida, petitioner being that of Mr. and Mrs. John Foster versus
Daniel L. Greene, d/b/a DGCT of Naples, Inc. License number
NBR22946, and Case No. 2004-01.
The order: This cause came before public hearing before the
Contractors Licensing Board on February 18th, 2004 for consideration
of the administrative complaint filed.
MR. NEALE: No it's just filed against. Daniel L. Greene.
MR. JOSLIN: Oh, I'm sorry, filed against Daniel L. Greene,
d/b/a DGCT of Naples, Inc.
Service of the complaint was made by certified mail. Publication
in accordance with the Collier County Ordinance 90-105, as amended.
Board having heard testimony under oath, received evidence and
heard arguments respective to all the appropriate manners, thereupon
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February 18, 2004
issues its findings of fact, conclusions of law and order of the board as
follows: That Daniel L. Greene, d/b/a DGCT of Naples, Inc. is the
holder of record of Certificate of Competency No. 22946; that the
Board of County Commissioners of Collier County, Florida is the
complainant in this matter; that the board has jurisdiction of the person
of that respondent and that Daniel L. Greene, d/b/a DGCT of Naples,
Inc. was present at the public hearing, and was not represented
by counsel. All notices required by Collier County Ordinance No.
90-105 as amended have been properly issued. Allegations of fact, as
set forth in the administrative complaint, are approved, adopted and
incorporated herein by reference as finding of fact.
The conclusions of law alleged and set forth in the
Administrative Complaint are approved, adopted and incorporated
herein.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, that's it for right now.
Okay, he has been found guilty of 4.1.10. Now we need to --
MR. NEALE: Well, and then you can-- you can also read to the
order of the board to the first paragraph, the section entitled order of
the board. Because that is the -- where you actually found him in
violation.
MR. JOSLIN: Based upon the foregoing findings of fact and
conclusions of law and pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter
49, Florida Statutes and Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105 as
amended by a vote of 5-0, is hereby ordered that the following --
MR. NEALE: No, that's just--
MR. JOSLIN: That's it?
MR. NEALE: It's just -- you say that he's now been -- he's been
found in violation of the ordinance.
MR. JOSLIN: Has been found in violation.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, now I need a -- you want to tell
us?
MR. NEALE: Yeah. As the respondent was found in violation
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February 18, 2004
of the ordinance, the board shall consider and order sanctions under
the following parameters as set out in Collier County Ordinance
90-105, as amended.
In considering what sanctions to impose, the Contracting
Licensing Board shall consider five elements: First, the gravity of the
violation; second, the impact of the violation; third, any actions taken
by the violator to correct the violation; four, any previous violations
committed by the violator; and five, any other evidence presented at
the hearing by the parties relevant as to the sanction that is appropriate
for the case, given the nature of the violation.
The sanctions that the board may impose are set out in Collier
County Ordinance in Section 22-203 in the codified section and in the
revised ordinance in Section 4.3.5.
The sanctions which may be imposed include 10 different
potential sanctions. Number one, revocation of the Certificate of
Competency; number two, suspension of the Certificate of
Competency; number three, denial of issuance or renewal of the
Certificate of Competency; number four, probation of a reasonable
length, not to exceed two years, during which the contractor's
contracting activities shall be under the supervision of the Contractor
Licensing Board and/or participation in a duly accredited program of
continuing education. Probation may be revoked for cause by the
board at a hearing notice to consider said purpose; number five,
restitution; number six, a fine not to exceed $5,000; number seven, a
public reprimand; number eight, a reexamination requirement; number
nine, denial of the issuance of permits or requiring issuance of permits
with conditions; and number 10, reasonable legal and investigative
costs.
The board may impose any combination of these sanctions or any
one thereof. At the
same time, the board should also consider, as noted before, and a
recommended penalty if any to the State Construction Industry
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February 18, 2004
Licensing Board. And that penalty recommendation to the state board
may include a recommendation for no further action, a
recommendation of suspension, revocation or restriction of the
registration, or a fine to be levied by the state board.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, in the past we have done
some discussion before our proposal -- or before our motion.
MR. NEALE: Yeah. That's certainly appropriate.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And it really expedites things. I have
-- there's no problem doing that? MR. NEALE: None at all.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's discuss it.
MR. LLOYD: You know where I'm going.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I know where you're going, and I'm
going to say here first of all, this contractor is here because the job got
away. He answered, he responded, tried to make it as best he could.
He's present here today. And the only reason he's here is because he
can't afford to redo the job. So -- and there's never been a complaint
on him before.
So I know we're looking at a restitution area. I'm not really
wanting to take an action on his license. I want to leave the license
alone.
MR. LLOYD: I'm not either. I don't want to jeopardize his
license. I mean, if this is -- I think what happened is there was a point
in time where he realized this was not going the way he thought it was
going to go. And at that time that point in time he should have made a
different decision than the one he made. But now the consumer is
sitting there with an unacceptable floor that needs to be corrected.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And I agree. And I'm sure he
doesn't have 11 or $12,000 sitting around. So at this point, I'd like to
MR. JOSLIN: Do we know that -- I haven't heard any comment
yet -- that he is not capable of redoing this floor himself?. Or if the
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February 18, 2004
homeowner will accept that.
MR. LLOYD: That was the point in one of my earlier questions.
I specifically asked, what should be done to make this floor right; do
you remember that question? It's in the transcript. But he said he
didn't know. So for me to -- for me as a consumer to say okay, you
continue forward and fix this floor, I would be uneasy, because he
stated he didn't know how to fix it. That was the reason for one of my
earlier questions. If it was repairable to fix, give him a chance to do it.
But when he said he really didn't know how to do it, that bothered me.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And whether or not we could give
him time to pay back. What I don't want to do is throw it on him and
throw it on him so fast that he has no choice but to go out of business
or not pay and come back again. We've been down that road before,
too.
MR. NEALE: If I may suggest to the board, what the board has
done in the past, I guess that's one of the advantages of me having
been here as many years as I have, is the board has permitted payment
over a period of time with the licensee being under the supervision of
the staff. And if the payment is not made during that period of time,
the licensee is dragged back in front of the board. He typically has his
license suspended or revoked if he does not meet the payment
schedule. So the board has ordered sanctions of that type in the past in
sort of a semi similar situation.
MR. LLOYD: At one point in time we had one for about 90
days, one as far out as six months, wasn't there?
MR. NEALE: Yes, there was one that went six months.
MR. JOSLIN: A little longer, actually.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, ! believe several years ago we had one that
went almost a year.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. --
MR. LLOYD: Well, where does that leave the homeowner?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got two questions, and this is
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February 18, 2004
where we can ask him.
Mr. Greene, can you come back up to the podium for just a
minute? You see where we're going? MR. GREENE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have $12,0007
MR. GREENE: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What period of time could you come
up with that?
MR. GREENE: I'd be hard pressed. I've got a wife that's sick
and I'm--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's a bitter pill, I understand.
MR. GREENE: Can I ask a question?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
MR. GREENE: If I was to go back and try to get the floor to
where it's supposed to be, would that be acceptable? And I'll go over
the fine details. You know, again, the whole point was trying to make
the floor as flush as possible.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All that's going to do is prolong this
whole situation. Because you've admitted in testimony, we've heard it
from others, that the only way to fix this thing is to take the whole
floor up.
MR. GREENE: Not necessarily. You can go over the top of tile.
If I purchase the same tile and -- I'll go over the top of it and then do
the mud work. And if they're not going to worry about stepping up,
I'd go over that with Mr. and Mrs. Foster and say this is what we're
going to have here as far as a step, is that acceptable.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think that's going to fly, but
have a seat.
Mrs. Foster, would you come up?
MR. NEALE: You can call either one of them. If one feels more
comfortable, you could swear the other one in, you know, Mr. Foster,
if he --
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February 18, 2004
MR. JOSLIN: If you have other comments you'd like to make,
too, you're more than welcome.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, because the case is over. We're
just in the penalty phase now.
I need for you to state your name and --
MR. FOSTER: I'm John foster.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON:
-- and be sworn in.
What's a good settlement for you?
MR. FOSTER: Well, this could have been settled a long time
ago, honestly. It's kind of unrealistic to expect this floor to be
completely tom out. I can't imagine the mess. And I sympathize with
his position.
And I would like to say one thing. I pay my bills 100 percent all
the time. I never give anyone the opportunity to say I didn't pay them.
Paying him did not mean I was satisfied with that job.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, you can see by this board, it
was not taken as such.
MS. FOSTER: Okay, well, thank you. And I'm sorry I made a
motion back there, but I just -- I always pay my bills. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's obvious.
MS. FOSTER: I don't know, I'd like to see him given-- and I
offered to do this already -- plenty of time to pay it back. I'm not
looking for $12,000. But this isn't right. So give him all the time you
can. And I guess, you know, if you've got 50 cents on the dollar. I
don't need the money, honestly, but this isn't right.
MR. JOSLIN: So in other words, what you're saying is you
would be content -- or you'd be satisfied with a $6,000 payback, give
him time to -- MR. FOSTER:
MR. JOSLIN:
MR. FOSTER:
I don't want to wreck the man's life.
I understand that. And I appreciate -- That's the only reason. I think I'm entitled to all
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February 18, 2004
my money back. But honestly, it won't change my life, you know. I'm
a very blessed man. And I don't want to wreck his.
MR. LLOYD: With regards to the house and being in the house
with the floor in the present condition, is there a safety concern there
that needs to get resolved?
MR. FOSTER: Well, that is an issue. And we have put some
carpets down over it, you know, just put them over the top to try to
prevent some of it.
I don't know where we're going. The thought of us taking the
kitchen cabinets back out and going through all this again. I mean, it
makes just a horrendous mess.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you have to take -- are the tiles
sitting on the cabinets (sic)?
MR. FOSTER: I'm sorry?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are the cabinets sitting on the tiles?
MR. FOSTER: They are now. See, we took them out and so the
cabinets were removed. And he put the tile in, then they were put
back.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh. That changes the whole picture.
MR. LLOYD: Can I ask Mr. Greene something?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Greene, go over here to this
speaker. Stay right there, will you?
When I say we're quasi judicial, we're proving it.
MR. LLOYD: Only because I -- Mr. Greene, I need you to see if
this is going to work. And it may not. In parquet floors when they're
out of line, sometimes you can go in and you can buff them, sand
them smooth. With these tiles being out, is there a way to polish those
down so that those edges become lower? You know, is there a
grinding process that's possible?
MR. GREENE: I believe there is, yes. I've seen it done with
Saturnia and Travertine. You come in there and take it down. I'm
pretty sure you can do it with the porcelain tile.
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February 18, 2004
MR. JOSLIN: Is this a glazed tile? Glazed on top?
MR. GREENE: It's glazed, but it's kind of a rough texture to it.
It's not real high sheen. It's not like marble.
MR. JOSLIN: But it's a solid core tile where it's --
MR. GREENE: Solid core porcelain tile.
MR. LLOYD: That's why I thought the buffing down you can
maybe -- I don't know, I'm just trying to find a solution here where
they get to keep the floor, they don't have to tear everything out and it
isn't a massive expense to -- I mean, there's an expense going to be
associated with it, obviously, but I'm just trying to find a solution so
they can keep the floor and you can move forward today.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've got a comment?
MR. FOSTER: Well, we were told something contrary to that,
that's all, that you can't grind it down.
MR. LLOYD: I don't know, that's why I asked. Okay, that's
why I asked. Thank you.
MR. GREENE: I could find out.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I can see the mess with doing that,
too.
MR. LLOYD: Oh, the dust would be --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It would be outrageous.
MR. FOSTER: See, we had hoped to end up with this job with a
nice clean house, everything repainted, new tile, new carpet. And now
you're going to come back and -- that carpet, new carpet, paint. It's
just going to be terrible.
MR. LLOYD: Well, that's why we're asking.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Foster, where do you see you're going? Not
taking into account anything that this board will do here today. Where
do you see your future, you and Mrs. Foster, six months from now
with your tile floors? Have you put any thoughts to what your plans
might be to correct this?
MR. FOSTER: We haven't discussed it, because we were
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February 18, 2004
waiting for this. And we didn't want it to get to this. Last summer he
had indicated to me that he was going on vacation and when he got
back to me he would reach a settlement with me, and that would have
been fine, if he'd agreed to do something regarding payback. You
know, and again, we're flexible, but we have not discussed where
we're going to go after this, because we wanted to get to the end of
this.
MR. LEWIS: Again, I just need to bring up the safety issue.
Mrs. Foster mentioned to us under testimony that she felt that there
was a safety issue. And I believe one time she actually tripped and
had to catch herself with a high heel on.
Do you think that the rugs that you've placed now have pretty
much taken care of that? Because obviously, you have a lot of
expenditure for other people coming over; you have a liability there.
Do you think that's been correcting that situation or --
MR. FOSTER: It helps, but it's certainly not going to correct it.
MR. LEWIS: Right.
MR. FOSTER: No.
MR. LEWIS: But as far as the safety issue, we wouldn't have to
worry about your safety in the home?
MR. FOSTER: Well, I would never go against you for anything,
but no, it's not --
anything other than just replacing I don't think is going to solve the
problem. That's the big thing.
MR. LEWIS: And you don't feel that you want to replace the
floor at this time?
MR. FOSTER: I don't want to start next week. We just got
finish with this mess and I just hate the thought of it. MR. LEWIS: Thankyou.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Foster, I appreciate your time.
You're a gentleman.
MR. FOSTER: Thank you.
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February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Greene, if you'll --
MR. GREENE: Could I ask a question of Mr. Foster?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes.
MR. GREENE: Is there anything more I can do to take care of
those high spots that you say are dangerous, to appease you as far as
coming back down there and doing that? Would that --
MR. FOSTER: As I told you when we got back here, Dan, all I
wanted you to do was make it right. And you came in there and
worked part-time for a few days, and when you left, you thought it
was a good job. So I have to think that you don't know. That's my
opinion, you just don't know. I can't say you do or don't. In my
opinion, you don't know.
MR. GREENE: But if you're going to be there, I can pull this
one out, this one out, this one out, this one out --
MR. FOSTER: It's not my job to stand there and tell you what
tile needs to be replaced.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Folks, at this point I'm going to stop
both of you, because we're not going to settle this case now. All this
should have taken place before it got here. You've already been found
guilty of a charge. We're in the penalty phase. Please -- thank you for
your time, but have a seat.
If you didn't think we were serious before we got to this day, you
were sadly mistaken.
MR. GREENE: No, I understand.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, gentlemen, where do you want
to go? Let's put a rest to this.
MR. LLOYD: Yeah. Well, I think there needs to be restitution
to the Fosters. I think the time has to be reasonable so as not to
jeopardize his ability -- Mr. Greene's ability to stay in business. The
quantity of the restitution obviously from a consumer's perspective,
I'm going to go to the high end and would say that we have -- the
amount of money that they paid should be repaid to them and then
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February 18, 2004
they find a way to fix the floor. That's a discussion, it's not a motion
yet. Are you looking for a motion?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, no, we can discuss it, too. I --
my tile setter doesn't have $12,000 and I don't have any doubt of that.
$6,000, which is a gracious offer, in the true sense of the word, that he
may collect. 12,000, I don't think he would collect. I don't think I
could give him enough time to get it done. Whereas 6,000, if we give
him 60 days, he can come up with it. He can come up with it on a
Master Card or a Visa or something, but he can come up with $6,000,
if it means his livelihood. And should count his blessings that he got
out for $6,000, because everyone on this board, I could feel, we were
going 12. And chalk it up to education. It was a bad job went bad.
I'll never forget Mark Twain's statement, education's expensive, no
matter how you get it. And some of us have Ph.D.'s the hard way.
But I say -- I'm leaning towards the 6,000 short period of time,
put it behind us and let them figure out what they're going to do to the
floor. MR. JOSLIN:
MR. LLOYD:
MR. JOSLIN:
We have another--
What do you think a short period -- go ahead.
Just a quick comment. We have another estimate
that was given to the Fosters in the packet, that the more I read of it,
seems like it includes everything that was -- should be done that
wasn't done.
MR. LLOYD:
MR. JOSLIN:
MR. LEWIS:
what I can read.
MR. LLOYD:
materials.
There's an addition in here.
There's a couple of things that were added to it.
Yeah, but I don't think it includes material, from
That's what I saw. Yeah, it does not say
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, and the owner has to supply a
dumpster. Those are very inconvenient, I know.
MR. LEWIS: Which is kind of where I was getting ready to go
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February 18, 2004
also, just for you guys to entertain. You know, usually you can get
ceramic tile installed for anywhere from $2.00 to $4.00 a square foot,
maybe $3.00 a square foot for installation cost. I believe the Fosters
definitely need to get their money back for any monies they paid for
installation. They do have use of the tiles. He did say he doesn't want
to tear it up right away. He is taking his own steps to at least protect
himself and his wife and anyone that might visit them for safety
reasons. So until they decide what they want to do, they do have use
of the tile. And the tile is not the question here, it's the installation.
So ! think if we were to consider that fact, which would be
somewhere near $3,500 for the installation, plus the removal of the
existing tile that was installed improperly, which I think the only
breakdown we have at this point is from Ehlen, which was an estimate
of $3,450. So I think I would entertain, you know, adding those two,
35 and 34, so coming up with 6,950 and actually another $575 to
install in on a diagonal. So whatever that adds up to. I can't do the
math that quick. But I would entertain more that than the 6,000. I
again commend the Fosters for their more than generous offer. I think
it does need to be a little more than that to compensate them for their
actual loss, and also as far as the short time of restitution. I agree with
Mr. Dickson, there's no way that I could see 6 or $7,000 coming up
immediately.
So if the board would entertain and someone would perform six
months for restitution, I think that would be -- along with supervision
of the staff.
MR. JOSLIN: I can see your point also, but I have to I guess go
back to Mr. Dickson's comment, that we're trying to put this together
now so we can, number one, put it to rest, number two, make the
Fosters fairly well contented in the fines that we have, but at the same
time give Mr. Greene ample time to pay this back. And as well as
being able to pay it back with the dollar that is going to be satisfactory
to both parties.
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February 18, 2004
The $6,000 is something I guess is something that was
commented by the Fosters that they've agreed to. And I'm having to
hope that Mr. Greene is able to pay the $6,000 back. And if he can,
then the Greenes are -- Mr. Greene is satisfied, the Fosters are satisfied
and the problem is over for both parties, and neither one is damaged to
it in such a degree.
So I'm going to entertain a motion that we find this restitution for
$6,000 to be paid back within a six-month period. Any comment on the six months?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've got to make the motion and
we discuss it. You may not get a second.
MR. JOSLIN: And to be broken down into two monthly
installments.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I've got a motion. Do I have a
second?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion dies for lack of a second. I
need another motion.
MR. LLOYD: My concern is -- and I'm coming at it --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go for it.
MR. LLOYD: Go for it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's the only way we're going to get
anywhere.
MR. LLOYD: I worry about -- you know, being the consumer
representative here, I always worry about the consumer, but I also
worry about Mr. Greene's livelihood, and we don't want to jeopardize
that.
You know, we just had a motion for $6,000 to be paid back in six
months. I probably would extend the payback time, only with the
stipulation that his -- Mr. Greene's license -- work be monitored, and if
in fact he doesn't meet the time line, we come back and confront and
evaluate whether or not he should even have a license. I think that's
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February 18, 2004
where I'm headed. In other words, we give Mr. Greene an opportunity
to--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is this a motion?
MR. LLOYD: No, I'm just -- I'm going to come to a motion. I'm
just kind of talking.
I'm in agreement with the amount of money, and it's very
generous of the Fosters. I would have gone higher, but I would extend
the time. I probably would say give him -- and I don'tknow what it
takes.
So my motion is that we require Mr. Greene to pay back the
6,000 -- the quantity of $6,000 and do it over a period of nine months,
being three installments being -- one-third of the amount being paid
every three months, until satisfied. If at any point in time one of those
payments is missed, his license is up for review and/or possible
suspension. That's my motion, lengthy as it is.
So my motion is that we fine him -- he has to pay back $6,000
over a nine-month period. Payments have to occur one-third of the
6,000 in three months, one-third of the 6,000 in another three months,
one-third in another three months. And at that point -- and during that
nine-month period, his license is under review or monitored, or
whatever --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's the proper terminology there,
Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: What he would be is you would put him on
probation during that period.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Probation?
MR. NEALE: Under which time he would be under the
supervision of this board, and that should he miss a payment, that he
would come back to this board for review.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that okay to take it from him?
That's the way we want the motion to read.
MR. LLOYD: Yeah, is that all right? My mind is going in
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February 18, 2004
different directions.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have a second? I will second it.
I can second them, I can't make them; is that correct, Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: You can. The board -- or the Chair can second or
make motions.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I can?
MR. NEALE: Yeah. It's been protocol that we haven't, but
there's no prohibition.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion. The reason I really like
this is I totally changed my mind about his license after I heard Mr.
Foster talk. If you get a customer like that who's willing to even go 50
cents on a dollar, if you can't settle your dispute or rectify the
situation, I mean, we've all been there. I've had customers, it's like
talking to a, you know, lion that's starving. But here I've got a
reasonable man who's -- if you can't resolve
that one, then there's probably some -- you can't bury your head in the
sand and hope the problem will go away. So I like your motion that
he's on probation until he pays this.
MR. LLOYD: The increments are small enough that they utilize
another means of paying it back.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. I think it's a good motion.
Discussion, gentlemen?
MR. LEWIS: I frankly would like to stand with a higher amount.
But understanding the situation and the graciousness of the Fosters, I
would concede on that to the $6,000.
The nine months is okay. I too agree with the probation for the
license. And just in addition to that, and I don't know if you need to
attach that to your motion or not, but that no further action should be
taken to the state for license.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree with that. So we'll amend the
motion --
MR. LLOYD: I amend the motion.
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February 18, 2004
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- to no further action from the state.
MR. LLOYD: That is correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I will second that amended
motion. MR. LLOYD:
MR. LEWIS:
MR. JOSLIN:
Thank you.
I can support that.
Unless he fails to --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Comes back here.
MR. LLOYD: Oh, yeah, he's back here.
MR. LEWIS: Right, he'll be under probation. He'll be under our
review. And we're going to charge staff with that responsibility to
make sure the payments are made. And if there's anything that's
different from that or if there's any complaints made at that time of his
probation, to bring him back here to us and we can discuss it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any further discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It passes 5-0.
You want to read that?
MR. JOSLIN: Based upon the foregoing findings of fact,
conclusions of law and pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter
489, Florida Statutes, and Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as
amended, by a vote of 5-0, in favor -- five in favor and zero opposed,
it's hereby ordered the following disciplinary actions, sanctions,
related order are hereby imposed upon the holder of contractor
Certificate of Competency No. 22946. That Daniel L. Greene of d/b/a
DGCT of Naples, Inc. pays back the sum of $6,000 to be paid back
within a nine-month period, with payments being paid each quarter of
$2,000 -- no, sorry $3,000 per quarter-- $2,00 per quarter. And his
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February 18, 2004
license be placed on a probationary status until the monies are paid.
And that the board will take no further action to send notification to
state licensing board resulting from this action.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, who does he make the
payments to?
MR. NEALE: He would make them directly to the Fosters, with
-- providing proof of payment to the county staff.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. You had a bad job, it turned
bad. But you also saved $6,000 here today because the Fosters -- this
board was heading for 12,000. You could see that coming. MR. GREENE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You need to get them a check three
months from today in the amount of $2,000. So February, March,
April, May the 18th. Now, that doesn't mean you mail it May 18th,
it's in their mailbox or on their doorstep the 18th of May. And he may
well have a northern address that you need to send it to.
And then the next three months from that will be the next one,
and nine months from today will be the last payment. You're not
being charged interest on it.
I hope -- I know you're going to learn from this so I don't need to
sit here and say anything to you. You're a grown man. But you did
get off easy. And if you don't make the payment, then your file will
be sent back to this board, and all I can tell you, don't let that happen.
Find a way to get it paid and just go on down the road and make up
that $6,000 and maybe we all learn from this.
Mr. and Mrs. Foster, I thank you for your time. I don't feel like
you really gained coming -- going through this process. We have a lot
of them out there that are mega dollars, and we can't get the people to
come before this board or file a complaint. So if we can ever help you
in the future. We appreciate -- you're both gracious, very gracious
what you did here today. Case is closed.
There is no other business. I need one final motion.
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MR. JOSLIN: Motion to adjourn.
MR. LLOYD: Motion to adjourn.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
(Unanimous votes of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next meeting, gentleman?
MR. NEALE: St. Patrick's Day.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: March 18th?
MR. LLOYD: 17th.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 17th. It will be full. Because we did
have one case go over, so try to be here. Thank you for your
attendance today.
There being no further business for the good of the County, the
meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 12:10 p.m.
CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
LES DICKSON, Chairman
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