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CLB Minutes 12/17/2003 RDecember 17, 2003 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida December 17, 2003 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson David L. Beswick Syd Blum Eric Guite' Richard Joslin Ann Keller William Lewis Kenneth Lloyd ALSO PRESENT: Thomas Bartoe, Licensing Compliance Officer Robert Zachary, County Attorney Patrick Neale, Counsel to the Board Jim Hoopengarner, License Compliance Officer Michael Ossorio, License Compliance Officer Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: December 17, 2003 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: October 15, 2003 DISCUSSION: NEW BUSINESS: Stephen C. Reidy, Jr. - Request to qualify a second company. Rebecca J. Pahl-Lopez - Request to qualify a second company Edgar Pedreros - Request approval of experience from Colombia for Master Electrical license. Michael S. Thompson - Request approval for Residential Contractor license based on past licenses. OLD BUSINESS: VII. VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: Zdzislaw M. Kujawa - Contesting Citation #1882 issued for no roofing license. Case # 2003-03 - Collier County Contractor Licensing vs Becky Alzamora d/b/a Tropical Tree Service, Inc'. REPORTS: NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, Januaw21,2004 December 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board, December 17th, 2003. Anybody who's here, if your case is going to be heard and you want to appeal a decision of this Board, you'll need to get a verbatim transcript of this meeting, which you can see the court reporter afterwards and make-- no, you can't? Call your office, right? Okay. Roll call from my right to left, Bill? MR. LEWIS: Mr. Lewis.y MR. BESWICK: Mr. Beswick. MR. BLUM: Mr. Blum. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MS. KELLER: Ann Keller. MR. LLOYD: Ken Lloyd. MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any additions or deletions to the agenda, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Board members. For the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County lyin -- Compliance Licensing Officer. MR. LLOYD: Lying officer. MR. BARTOE: Lying officer, whatever. And staff at this time has no additions or deletions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I need a motion to approve the .agenda as written. MR. JOSLIN: MR. LLOYD: So moved, Joslin. Second, Lloyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Also, last month's minutes -- or two months, since we did not meet in November -- the October minutes, I need an approval of those. Page 3 December 17, 2003 MR. approved. LLOYD: Lloyd, make a motion minutes be accepted as MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No discussion. New business MR. REIDY: CHAIRMAN This podium right (Speaker was CHAIRMAN · Stephen Reidy, are you present? Yes. DICKSON: Would you come forward, please, sir. over here. And I need to have you sworn in. duly sworn.) DICKSON: You're here to qualify a second entity MR. REIDY: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- second company? MR. REIDY: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you just give us a background why and what the entity is, what you're doing? MR. REIDY: Yeah, I'm going to branch off into another pool business, but I'm going to have a long-time friend of mine help me run it. And I don't -- and I'm going to take full responsibility for the business, but I want him to run it and to eventually branch off and take over the business for himself. I'm still going to be financial advisor for the business, I will still take profits from the business, but eventually, like I said, I would like him to take it over. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. you're aware of what you're doing -- MR. REIDY: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- you responsible? MR. REIDY: whole thing. And you-- you sound like are aware that you're fully Yeah, I understand all the -- I understand the Page 4 December 17, 2003 MR. JOSLIN: What type of business are you doing, Alligator Pools? MR. REIDY: It's pool service and repair. MR. JOSLIN: Pool service and repair. MR. REIDY: Yeah. And I'm going to branch off with another pool service and repair business, but I'm going to run it under a different name. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you familiar with that? MR. JOSLIN: The company, yes. I've heard of the company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Joslin-- What is the reason for you going to branch off MR. JOSLIN: into a second one? MR. REIDY: Well, like I said, I'm going to start another company and then eventually I want to let that company go off with another person, still going to have -- I'm still going to have -- how can I say it-- MR. JOSLIN: Control. MR. REIDY: -- control of what's going on. But eventually he's going to go off and go off on his own direction. He's going to take his own exam, take his own test and branch off on his own, but I'm still going to have controlling interest in the company. MR. JOSLIN: I see. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have any other questions? MR. BLUM: I should note that I know both of these applicants personally, and I have nothing but high regard for both of them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. REIDY: Thank you. MR. JOSLIN: Just one last question. Does this gentleman that you're going to allow to have your license or to be involved in your company, has he been with you in the past, does he work with you now? Page 5 December 17, 2003 MR. REIDY: Yes. Yes. MR. JOSLIN: For how long has he been working with you? MR. REIDY: He's been working with me for the past three-and-a-half years now. Now, it's off and on. He works full-time for Waste Management, but I'm slowly trying to pull him out of that and get him into this. But he's been working with me about three-and-a-half years now. MR. JOSLIN: I got you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Packet looks in order. I was checking one item of insurance. Okay, you're going to -- you currently qualify Alligator Pools of-- MR. REIDY: CHAIRMAN MR. REIDY: CHAIRMAN company. MR. REIDY: MR. JOSLIN: MR. BLUM: MR. JOSLIN: MR. REIDY: CHAIRMAN MR. REIDY: CHAIRMAN MR. REIDY: CHAIRMAN workers' comp? MR. REIDY: Naples, Inc. DICKSON: Yep. DICKSON: Inc. And I'm looking for the new It will be Pork Chop Pools of Naples, Inc. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Inc., okay. Interesting name. How did you come by that name? It should be easy to remember, I suppose. Well, names that stand out grab you, right? DICKSON: Yes. DICKSON: Yes. DICKSON: Are you exempting yourself?. And he is as well? And you're aware of the new laws on Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. They're tough. MR. REIDY: Yep, I know. I've already filed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very good. Page 6 December 17, 2003 Any other discussion? MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, just one point of order. In the sworn statement, I presume that's what this is, it's a handwritten sworn statement from Mr. Reidy, it does state that he is only responsible for the financial portion of Port Chop Pools. I would make a motion to approve this application if that was rewritten, that the statement is, as our normal packet, says he'll be responsible for all matters of the business. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Basically he can write whatever he wants, but the precedent is the law of Collier County, and he's going to be responsible for everything when he qualifies the company. MR. LEWIS: I just don't like seeing stuff like that in writing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Am I correct, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. MR. LEWIS: Can I make a motion that we remove that from the packet, if it's not necessary then? MR. REIDY: Absolutely. MR. LEWIS: Would that-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: I don't have any objections. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. JOSLIN: Is that a motion? MR. LEWIS: Please. MR. JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, all those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Fully understood by everybody here. Any complaints on Alligator Pools? MR. BARTOE: Unknown, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. What's your pleasure? MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion that we approve the -- MS. KELLER: I just have one technical question here. Mr. Page 7 December 17, 2003 MR. BLUM: CHAIRMAN disapprove. MR. JOSLIN: Cordelio (sic) -- MR. REIDY: Mr. Cordero. MS. KELLER: -- Cordero has credit updates, and these updates state that no negative information was posted, but I don't believe that we have an original credit report. Is there'? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The reason we don't is because we don't really need to know about his credit. MS. KELLER: I didn't think so, but -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because he's the qualifier. MR. REIDY: Yeah, it's all -- it all falls to me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Even if his credit was negative, it wouldn't have an effect. Correct, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. MR. JOSLIN: Basically you-- MS. KELLER: But normally this would not be significant -- this would not enough if we -- if it was important. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Correct. MS. KELLER: If it's just an update. MR. JOSLIN: You're just going to qualify a second business and this gentleman is just basically going to run it for you. MR. REIDY: Right. MR. JOSLIN: Until he learns enough and then take it over himself down the road. MR. REIDY: Yep. And then -- and then, but like I said, I'm still going to keep interest in the company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Nice deal. Nice deal for both of them. Good deal for both. DICKSON: I need a motion to approve or I started. I make a motion that we approve Mr. Reidy or the new entity for Port Chop Pools. Page 8 December 17, 2003 MR. BLUM: I second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: discussion? (No response.) Got a motion and a second. Any CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I can't even think-- opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Unanimous. You are approved. Now, for all of those of you here as well, all of your paperwork and your files are here. Don't go to the county today. MR. REIDY: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go see Maggie tomorrow and you'll be taken care of. MR. REIDY: Okay. Thank you very much for your time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well. MR. REIDY: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Rebecca Pahl-Lopez? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you -- oh, I thought that was Rebecca. Rebecca Pahl-Lopez not here. We'll see if she comes in later. Edward Pedreros? MR. PEDREROS: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Am I saying that correctly? Close? I need for you to come in, state your name and have you sworn in, please. MR. PEDREROS: My name is Edgar Pedreros. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you are here because you want us to approve your experience from Columbia for a master electrical license, correct? Page 9 December 17, 2003 MR. PEDREROS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you are trying to qualify Accuracy Electric, Incorporated; is that correct? MR. PEDREROS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, sir. Tell us -- as we're going through this packet with you, tell us about your experience in Columbia. MR. PEDREROS: Thank you. Let me read this letter that I prepared. You know, I speak English, but maybe not very good. I come from Bogota, Columbia, where I was awarded Electrical Engineer, and Specialist in Electrical Engineering, high voltage. I got a Master in Administration. I used to work in energy company in Bogota; it's like Florida Power. I worked from December, 1986 to December, 1997. I was in charge of high voltage laboratory. I did another tasks and different projects in that company, all the projects in the electrical field and that stuff. Since I came to United States, I have worked in several construction tasks like layout, diagnostic engineer, as even as an electrician, so I know-- I consider myself that I know about, you know, the construction technology and the building codes of the Florida. Besides, I went to study at Lorenzo Walker Institute of Technology as an apprentice technician. I studied for two years and I got the outstanding student in both. Then I went to the Collier County and I took the tests, so I pass my master electrician and the business and law test. This in order to get my master electrician license. I want to say that I was awarded like the employee of the month in the company that I used to work, and I participated in the safety committee during the Collier Electric Company that I used to work. Now I work for another company. I want to tell you that I have worked for more than 16 years. And Page 10 December 17, 2003 I want to tell you too that I too did journeyman test last Saturday. I called and I pass, I got 90. Because the -- in the county -- the set (phonetic) in charge told me that I haven't taken the journeyman test, so I decided to take it before coming here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you have a degree. A lot of this we read for the record, but you have a degree in electrical engineering, correct? MR. PEDREROS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And that's from the University of Columbia? MR. PEDREROS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In Bogota? MR. PEDREROS: Yes, sir. National University. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pardon me? MR. PEDREROS: Universidad National is National University. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: National University. MR. PEDREROS: I got copies of the translation in one company here in the United States that they omologate (sic) my grades, you know, and they say that I qualify here in the United States. I mean, in other words, that grade, I got it in Columbia, is good for working here in United States. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You also have a Master's Degree in business? MR. PEDREROS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other degrees? MR. PEDREROS: I got financial management, but I got my -- all my diplomas in here to show somebody, if somebody want to see them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you've already taken the test, is that correct, here in Collier County? MR. PEDREROS: Yeah, I took -- I took the master electrician test and the business and law test. And the -- last Saturday I took the Page 11 December 17, 2003 journeyman test and I passed. I called and I got 90. I passed. I don't have the letter, because it's call by phone. They are going to send me the letter later. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What was your grade on the test? MR. PEDREROS: Ninety. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ninety? MR. PEDREROS: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What about the other test? MR. PEDREROS: I got, in master electrician test, I got 80. In business and law, I got 88, and now the journeyman, 90. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very good. Anybody else have any questions? MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, can someone clarify exactly why he's here, what we're supposed to be talking about, or looking about? MR. BARTOE: Yes, I can. You have to be a journeyman two years to become a master. He's going for a master license without the two-year journeyman experience. MR. LEWIS: Okay, by "master", you mean electrical contractor? MR. BARTOE: Yeah, master electrical. MR. BLUM: It doesn't qualify the years he worked for Collier Electric as his journeyman wages? MR. BARTOE: It could. It's entirely up to the Board. That's why the man's here, because staff does not have the privilege of granting him a license to be a master electrician, because he has not had the two years' experience as a journeyman. I think Mr. Neale might be able to clarify for you that there are ways in the ordinance through experience, education, et cetera that he may be able, with the Board's approval, to get this. MR. BLUM: So he worked for Collier Electric? MR. NEALE: As an electrician. MR. BLUM: As an electrician, basically as a journeyman and he Page 12 December 17, 2003 just jumped -- jumped the system and went right to his master's test and then found out subsequently he had to go back and take the journeyman's test? MR. NEALE: That's what it sounds like. MR. BARTOE: Yes, it sounds like that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you want to read that, Mr. Neale? MR. BLUM: Anyone advise this poor man? MR. NEALE: Well, yeah, let me just give you the -- education at an accredited school may be presented to satisfy a portion of the experience requirements of this section. Each full year of school level work in the trade for which application is made shall be credited to the applicant as .75 years of experience, but such credit shall be for no more than one-half of the total experience. So his education, best as I can figure, is about eight years. So he get eight times .75, so what does he get, six years credit for that. Even though you can only use half of it, he still gets six years -- yeah, there's still six years' credit there. Plus he's worked for Collier Electric for, I think-- best as I can tell, seven years or something like that as an electrician. The Board would be really looking to do -- to waive essentially one year of his journeyman's experience, based upon other experience that he has had. The way I read the -- read it. Is that the way you read it, Tom? MR. BARTOE: Yes, sir. MR. BLUM: How long ago did he take the master's test, and do we have any verification of that? MR. PEDREROS: The idea -- because I took the master electrician test was because I asked before. I read everything about how to take the test, you know, and the loads about somebody in -- somebody in the county told me that my and my status in my country is good in here, you know. reason, I decided to take it before, you know, not to -- that. And experience So for that Page 13 December 17, 2003 MR. BLUM: No, I understand how it came about. But the master -- you said you got an 80 and an 88 on the master test. Do you have any verification of that? The test scores. MR. PEDREROS: You said that you don't have -- you don't have the scores in here? MR. BLUM: I'm asking, I don't know -- MS. KELLER: I didn't see them. MR. PEDREROS: I got copies of my scores. MR. LLOYD: Do you have a copy of that? MR. PEDREROS: Yes, I got some proofs in here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One at a time please, she's trying to write. MR. PEDREROS: Somebody wants something? MR. NEALE: If you've got the copies of your test scores, great. MR. BLUM: I saw references of taking the test, I just didn't see the results. I might have missed it, I apologize. MR. NEALE: Just to add to the -- more information for the Board, it does say that your master's experience shall be as a journeyman, but--journeyman's experience shall be as apprentices or trainees having completed an apprenticeship program registered with the Department of Labor and demonstrates four years in those trades, et cetera, et cetera. But it appears that that was done at least in some way, shape or form in here. The -- also, you can consider -- or you shall consider, not may but shall consider affidavits from former employees with specifics as to the number of years of experience, work performed and any other relevant information, copies of other certificates of competency, if any, held by the applicant, affidavits from any building director and locations where the applicant has worked, affidavits from any union organization and affidavits from any other source within the trade applied for. So there's affidavits in here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, why don't you just read Page 14 December 17, 2003 those for us. MR. NEALE: Yeah, there's examination results, notification from Experior, dated October 4, 2003 that he got an 88 on the business and law exam. There is a certificate of achievement from Experior that he successfully completed the master electrician's exam. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the date on that? MR. NEALE: There is no date on Thank you. That is dated August 2nd, examination results notification that he electrician's examination. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have any this one. Oh, here we go. 2003. Another Experior got an 80 on the master questions? Personally, I don't think the man has any problem with experience. I mean, I don't have electrical engineers and masters coming in here that often trying to -- do you have any comments, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: The only problem I have is those test scores should have been part of the packet and they're not in the original packet. So if the Board does give approval to the gentleman, I'd suggest we get a copy of those and put with his packet. MR. BLUM: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We can make that part of the motion. MR. BESWICK: So moved. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? I need for someone to make a motion. MR. BLUM: Are we doing two things here? We're going along with the license and now we're -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, we're -- MR. BLUM: -- talking about the business at the same time? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're only -- only thing we're doing is approving his experience as qualifying for his journeyman -- MR. NEALE: For his master's license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- for his master's license. MR. NEALE: Essentially what the Board is doing is certifying Page 15 December 17, 2003 that the experience he has had qualifies him for the adequate journeyman experience required under this -- under the ordinance, and allows him to become a master electrician, based upon his -- really, it's just an experience waiver is all you're doing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the licensing officer-- MR. NEALE: And really you're only waiving one year of journeyman experience because of his education, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the licensing office will take care of everything else. MR. BESWICK: So moved. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need for you to state it, please. MR. BESWICK: I move we approve his application, based on the requirements stated by Mr. Bartoe. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. That being that he have -- show proof to licensing of this -- what we just read, the Experior test scores. Second? MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I didn't think I -- I thought I heard everyone. You are approved. Again, go to the office tomorrow and they'll have everything put together for you. Take those test scores with you, because they'll want those in your file. MR. PEDREROS: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. I wish you well. Michael Thompson, will you come forward, sir? He is requesting approval for a residential contractor license, based on past licenses. Page 16 December 17, 2003 If you would, state your name, and I need to have you sworn in. MR. THOMPSON: I'm Michael Storter Thompson. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, you're requesting a residential contractor license based on past licenses. Mr. Bartoe, in other words, we're not testing, you're not doing anything, we're approving the license based on past licenses; am I correct? MR. BARTOE: He -- from what I read earlier this morning, he took the test and passed it. I believe it was 1989. I think it was Escambia County he was licensed in at one time. MR. THOMPSON: Correct. MR. BARTOE: He has done work in Alabama. I don't know what type of license he might have held up there. And just due to the length of time it has been since he has had an active license, staff could not issue an active license without the Board's approval. His registration with the State of Florida, from what I saw in the packet, he has kept that up. But that's just a registration. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Why don't you give us a brief overview, Mr. Thompson. MR. THOMPSON: Well, I'm from Collier County originally, and I moved to Alabama and did some work in Gulf Shores, Alabama, some contracting. And I also -- I took the block in '89 in Escambia County. I intended to do some work in the Pensacola area, but it never panned out so I just stayed in Alabama and worked. But I've been in construction all my life. I worked for Krehling, and I'm working with a contractor now in Naples. And we're planning on doing some houses together. And he already has his license, I just want to be able to carry my end of it and get my residential contractor's license up, you know, activated. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you have kept, by the -- I'm looking at the inactive receipts in your packets. You have kept your Page 17 December 17, 2003 license up, but just kept it inactive? MR. THOMPSON: That is true. And I kept the education up, furthering education. And I think I've done everything that I needed to do to keep an inactive -- you know, keep an inactive license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I guess I'm kind of lost. If he kept it inactive and he kept his education up, Mr. Neale, can't he just activate that? MR. BARTOE: That is only a registration that he has kept on the inactive. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I see. MR. BARTOE: He was locally licensed and that expired. Mr. Thompson, do you know-- MR. THOMPSON: That is correct. MR. BARTOE: -- what year you last had an active license with Escambia County? MR. THOMPSON: I would be guessing if I said it's been-- I don't have the stuff with me, and my wife works at the post office here. But I think it was like '94, '95. I'm not sure. It was in Escambia County. And I wasn't using it in Escambia County, so I let it go at that time. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Dickson, did I answer your question so that you understand why he's here? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the last-- last occupational license I see for Escambia is '93 to '94. MR. THOMPSON: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: education up? MR. THOMPSON: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That sounds about right. Okay. Since '94, have you kept your Okay. Mr. Neale, any comments? MR. NEALE: Just that under 489.117, that the registration only allows him to contract where he has complied with all the local licensing requirements, so you would have to deem that he's qualified Page 18 December 17, 2003 with the local licensing requirements for the registration to be valid here. MR. BLUM: Are we just looking for Collier license or state license here? MR. JOSLIN: Right, that was my question. Does Collier still have a residential block, residential contracting license available? Or is this now a state certified license, if he -- if he would have to go take the test? MR. BARTOE: I'm assuming it's still available or the office staff wouldn't have put this packet together. MR. NEALE: Yeah, I was looking at that prior to meeting myself, and as far as I can tell, in reviewing it, that there still is the state registered residential license, because we still list it. Even though it's an eight-year-old license, apparently, you know, the best as I can tell you can still have a state registered residential license, as opposed to a state certified. MR. JOSLIN: So we would just be granting -- if we did gram this license, it would only be for Collier County? MR. BARTOE: I know what you're saying, Mr. Joslin, about the state offering -- if you were registered with them, you could switch your license over. MR. JOSLIN: Right. MR. BARTOE: Which I don't think he'd be able to do, being inactive. MR. JOSLIN: Right. Unless he activated that license, then possibly he could under the grandfather law. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And he's kept the corporation up. MR. NEALE: Now, if he went certified-- MR. JOSLIN: Right. And my question -- MR. NEALE: If he went certified, then he's statewide. MR. JOSLIN: Right. My whole point is, is that if he has a license already that has been kept up, except been put inactive, then if Page 19 December 17, 2003 he was to reactivate that license in Escambia County, then he wouldn't have to go through the hoops of getting this Board to approve this license, because he could automatically then be grandfathered right into being a state certified contractor. MR. BARTOE: We don't know what Escambia's requirements are to renew after not having an active one since 1994. MR. NEALE: Whereas, if he -- if he took and certified it at the state level, as opposed to re-registering the license through Escambia, then if he certified it, then it would by definition be a valid license here. MR. JOSLIN: I see. MR. NEALE: As confusing as that may be. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you aware of what we're talking about? MR. THOMPSON: Not really. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They wanted all building contractors, including residential, state certified, so they did grandfather those licenses to put you under state control and give you state privileges. So it may be something if you're approved here today that you look into. MR. THOMPSON: You mean I would need to reactivate in Escambia? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. And if we approve you here and you have a register here, it may be that you may be able to make that state certified by the grandfather clause. MR. THOMPSON: Oh, state certified by the grandfather clause? MR. NEALE: Right. And if you're .state certified, then you can practice anywhere in the state. MR. THOMPSON: What do I need to do? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That you'll need to check on with the state. MR. NEALE: Yeah, get in touch with Tallahassee. Page 20 December 17, 2003 he was to reactivate that license in Escambia County, then he wouldn't have to go through the hoops of getting this Board to approve this license, because he could automatically then be grandfathered right into being a state certified contractor. MR. BARTOE: We don't know what Escambia's requirements are to renew after not having an active one since 1994. MR. NEALE: Whereas, if he -- if he took and certified it at the state level, as opposed to re-registering the license through Escambia, then if he certified it, then it would by definition be a valid license here. MR. JOSLIN: I see. MR. NEALE: As confusing as that may be. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you aware of what we're talking about? MR. THOMPSON: Not really. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They wanted all building contractors, including residential, state certified, so they did grandfather those licenses to put you under state control and give you state privileges. So it may be something if you're approved here today that you look into. MR. THOMPSON: You mean I would need to reactivate in Escambia? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. And if we approve you here and you have a register here, it may be that you may be able to make that state certified by the grandfather clause. MR. THOMPSON: Oh, state certified by the grandfather clause? MR. NEALE: Right. And if you're state certified, then you can practice anywhere in the state. MR. THOMPSON: What do I need to do? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That you'll need to check on with the state. MR. NEALE: Yeah, get in touch with Tallahassee. Page 20 December 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So Mr. Neale, we're -- we're within our power to reactivate this license? MR. NEALE: You are, except that under our ordinance, what is required is that they go back, complete the packet and weigh -- it is stated if it's been lapsed for this long, is that he's supposed to go back and retake the exams. So essentially you're waiving a testing requirement in order to allow that to go forward. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So that's all we're doing is waiving the DICKSON: Can I hear from my GC's on the At some point in time did he pass a state testing based on his past experience? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN board? MR. BLUM: contractor's exam? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He passed a county contractor's exam. MR. BLUM: County. In this county? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Escambia. MR. BLUM: Escambia. MR. THOMPSON: I took it in Escambia. It's the same exam. I took the Block exam. MR. BLUM: We know that it is the same exam? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If it's -- who was it, Block? was doing state -- MS. KELLER: Itwas '89, 1989, and he got a score of 81. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Block was entire state, even though it was a county license. MR. BLUM: Is he trying to be a GC? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, residential. MR. BLUM: Just residential? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Residential. Block doing them for the Page 21 December 17, 2003 MR. BLUM: Strictly residential. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There is a big difference. MR. BLUM: Single-family. Yeah. No, I'm with you, I just-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Single-family, one story, if I'm not mistaken. MR. NEALE: Yeah, no more than two. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No more than two. MR. BLUM: So it's limited. Okay. MR. NEALE: The other issue is ordinance, it states specifically that if as under the Collier County of the date of the receipt, because he has to submit a full new application and pay full new application fees, pursuant to the ordinance, but if as of the date of the application -- date of the receipt of the application by the county three years have passed since the date of his or her most recent exam that the individual passed to acquire the former certificate, that individual must pass all then applicable testing requirements. So as I say, what you're -- must pass, unless you waive those testing requirements. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Lewis, do you have any comments? MR. LEWIS: I'm a little concerned about what Mr. Neale is presenting there to us, that I don't hear him telling us that the state in 489 is giving us the authority to waive the testing requirements. Sounded pretty specific there. Mr. Neale, can you help me out there? MR. NEALE: Well, that's actually the Collier County ordinance, and it -- this Board does have the power to waive testing requirements where they feel they would be superfluous. MR. LEWIS: Other than that, I've been looking through his packet, Mr. Chairman, and the man's been in construction most of his life, I have to agree with that. I don't see any problems, and I wish we had some affidavits other than just the local people. But, you know, we have -- have an affidavit Page 22 December 17, 2003 from Hank Krehling, who's a fixture in this town for many, many a moon and a very upstanding citizen, and it's a recent notice from Mr. Krehling in support of Michael Thompson's license. So I'd have to say that if the Board has the right, I would opt to waive the testing requirements. MR. JOSLIN: I just have one last question before we make a motion. In Escambia County, did you have any -- were there any things that were the reason why you left Escambia County, what was it? MR. THOMPSON: I didn't leave Escambia County. I was living in Gulf Shores, Alabama. MR. JOSLIN: Right. MR. THOMPSON: I came into Escambia County and took my license -- took the test in Escambia County and got licensed, because I thought I was going to be doing work in Escambia County, which was Florida, of course, but it never panned out. So I just kept my license, because I knew I was coming back to Collier County eventually. And I went back to Alabama. I held a contractor's license in Alabama and I was building over there. And so now I'm back. I'm just trying to activate here. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. So in essence, then, you never really used the license. You got the license,' took the test and passed it -- passed all the requirements, but never have used that particular Escambia County license because it didn't work out? So you went inactive. MR. THOMPSON: The work didn't pan out, so I didn't -- I didn't do the work in Escambia County. I was working in Gulf Shores at the time anyway, which is right across the line. I was going to be licensed in both states so I could work on either side of the line, actually it was it was. MR. JOSLIN: I see. MR. THOMPSON: But I didn't get to work for just across the line. I lived like 25 miles over the line, and a lot of us were working Page 23 December 17, 2003 back and forth across the line. That way you wouldn't be limited just to Alabama. I just didn't -- you know, the work didn't pan out in Escambia County, so-- MR. JOSLIN: Did you use the license and work at all with that license? MR. THOMPSON: Not in Escambia County, no. MR. JOSLIN: Not at all. MR. THOMPSON: No. But I've worked in Florida -- Collier County before I left and I've been working ever since I've been back for a couple years here. MR. JOSLIN: Right. For other individuals, with other companies? MR. THOMPSON: Yeah, AJ Cross. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're not with Cross now, are you? MR. THOMPSON: Yeah, at this moment. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you? MR. THOMPSON: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. THOMPSON: We're going on a joint venture and that's why -- the reason I'm trying to activate now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And again, just a reminder, we're just waiving the testing requirements. Anybody, what's your pleasure? MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. LEWIS: I'd like to make a motion, please. Based on the information presented, I would like to recommend that Michael Thompson Construction, Incorporated be -- the testing requirements be waived in accordance with the information presented as to his experience factors, and that the packet be presented back to staff and completed as regulated. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? Page 24 December 17, 2003 MR. GUITE': I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: (Unanimous votes of ayes.) Any discussion? Call for a vote. All those in favor? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's unanimous. MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Remember, not today. MR. THOMPSON: Not today, correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Going none. Rebecca Lopez didn't come in. Kujawa? MR. KUJAWA: Kujawa. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, We wish you well. on to old business, there is Public hearings. Mr. Kuj -- sir, would you come forward, please. He is wanting to contest a citation issued for no roofing license. If you would, sir, I need for you to state your name and then I'll have you sworn in. MR. KUJAWA: Yes, my first name is Zdzislaw Kujawa. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Kujawa. 'And she will swear you in, Mr. Pedreros, unless you just want to sir. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: watch us, you can leave. MR. PEDREROS: I need to leave something. MR. BARTOE: Yes, we needed copies. If that's the case then -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He'll give those to Maggie. Are those your only copies? Oh, okay, well, give them to Mr. Bartoe. Page 25 December 17, 2003 Okay, you were issued a citation on October 2nd for working without a license, roof repair. If you would, tell us your side of the story. MR. KUJAWA: Yes. Yes, I was. I was up on the roof and ripping a hole. It had a leak, so they call me. I know this -- that business. And they were only a private house. So I say -- they ask me if I could see where the water is coming from. I said sure. I went in the attic, and you can see it, it was starting to rot and it had a hole in it. I said, well, what you have to do is just fix the hole and you will be okay. Otherwise, the ceiling was getting wet. While I was doing this job, Mr. -- excuse me, I forgot your name. MR. HOOPENGARNER: Hoopengarner. MR. KUJAWA: -- asked me to come down, and I came down and he says, do I have a license. I said license? No, I don't. He says the license is required to work on any job, maybe a roof or whatever. I said well, I didn't know that. I started this job as a handyman back in California, in Anaheim. And over there, never did I -- was even mention it that I would need a -- some kind of certification or license to perform a job as a handyman. And first time -- I have been here since 1906 -- 1996, the beginning. I was still working for the company, but then I retired at the age of 62, and since my Social Security is kind of a very thin line, ! cannot live on it, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So do you offer yourself as a handyman? MR. KUJAWA: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you advertise? MR. KUJAWA: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where do you advertise? MR. KUJAWA: Oh, in Naples Daily News. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And do you have a handyman license? MR. KUJAWA: No. I didn't know I had to have such a -- Page 26 December 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Who issued the citation? MR. HOOPENGARNER: I did, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do you have any comments? MR. NEALE: Yeah, he needs to be sworn. (Speaker duly sworn). MR. HOOPENGARNER: And for the record, my name is James Hoopengamer and I'm a Collier County licensing compliance investigator. Ladies and gentlemen of the Board, Mr, Chairman, I have no comments. It's like Mr. Kujawa stated, his son and himself was up on the roof repairing a roof, and I did call him down and asked if he had a license to repair a roof and he said no, he's a handyman. And I asked if he had a Collier County occupational license, and he doesn't have an occupational license either. So he was issued a citation for not being licensed for repairing a roof. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pretty well cut-and-dry. Ignorance of the law is no defense, but you do have to have a handyman license. MR. BARTOE: If I may? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, Mr. Bartoe. MR. BARTOE: Collier County occupational license has no such license called a handyman license. They have one that is called miscellaneous services, and it states right on it, no contracting areas, which means if he does have that license, he still cannot get on a roof to repair it. You have to be a roofer. And I think you know that, Mr. Dickson. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, what I was going to allude to is that license will not allow you to do certain categories, and those categories being plumbing, electrical, roofing. MR. NEALE: Well, and Collier County, as Mr. Bartoe correctly states, does not have a handyman license at all. The Board considered this several years ago and decided not to recommend to the County Page 27 December 17, 2003 Commission that we adopt one. There is one point that I'd like to bring up to the Board, and Mr. Dickson, I think most of the Board is well aware of it, but just want to make sure it's on the record, in that there is an exemption in 489 for any work of a casual, minor or inconsequential nature in which the aggregate contract price for labor, materials and all other items is less than $1,000. You do not have to be a licensed contractor to perform such work. The. Issue on which I think this tums is whether it's casual, minor or inconsequential work and whether it was under $1,000, so -- MR. JOSLIN: What did you charge the man to do the job? MR. KUJAWA: Oh, they ask me what to fix it and I give him, 120 bucks. MR. JOSLIN: Answer to that question-- MR. LEWIS: Excuse me, Mr. Neale? Would casual be defined as putting yourself out as a licensed contractor or handyman? MR. NEALE: Well, the exemption immediately goes away if a person advertises that he or she is a contractor or otherwise represents that he or she is qualified to engage in contracting, contracting being defined as any of the areas covered under 489. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The water is getting very muddy. MR. LEWIS: The loopholes are closing rapidly. MR. BLUM: So how does he advertise? What is his -- what does he stipulate in his advertising that he's capable of doing? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you advertised in that service directory in the Naples Daily News? MR. KUJAWA: That's correct, yes. Where you've got all those ads on it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And what do you advertise under? MR. KUJAWA: Handy hand (sic) services, any time, any day -- three n's: Any time, any day -- MS. KFJLLER: Anywhere. Page 28 December 17, 2003 MR. KUJAWA: That's right. And my phone number, and that's it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you've been doing this for how long? MR. KUJAWA: Well, I went out of the -- I was repairing washer (sic) and dryers for a company, and since the level of wages were kind of low, I decided to be a handyman, just like back in California. So -- and since I retired and I didn't have much income, I saw this -- all the different ads under handymans and so forth. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I understand that, and you explained that. But when -- how long have you been advertising in -- MR. KUJAWA: Oh, I've been there since ninety -- if I'm correct, since I retired. And I retired in, gee, I don't remember. MR. LLOYD: You said you were here since '96, 1996. MR. ALZAMORA: Yes, the beginning of '96, yes. February -- last week of February of'96 1 came here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, you wish to add? Come forward and be sworn in. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. OSSORIO: For the record, my name is Michael Ossorio, licensing compliance officer. The only thing that we have to offer is that the money value is not there, it's in what the term is, inconsequential work. And we consider roofing not inconsequential, no matter if you go on there -- what the money value would be. A perfect example would be if I'm fixing your air conditioning, a freon line for $125, would that be inconsequential work? And Sidney Blum says no. Well, the same thing would go for the roofer as well. This is considered a major trade and requires a license, no matter what the money would be. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you back that up, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Certainly. You know, as I stated before, that if it Page 29 December 17, 2003 is work that is casual, minor or inconsequential is the first test it has to get by. So the Board would have to find, in order to grant this appeal, to waive the citation, that what he was doing was either casual, minor or inconsequential. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're reading 489? MR. NEALE: Right from 489. So that would have to be that. Further, even if he met that test, if he holds himself out that he is a contractor or otherwise represents, i.e., to the homeowner, that he or she is qualified to engage in contracting, the exemption, regardless of the dollar amount, goes away. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But I'm sitting here agreeing with county, what if he's making a repair on the electrical service line to the house and the bill is $120? MR. NEALE: It is not casual, minor-- it can be argued that it is not casual, minor or inconsequential. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Then I need a definition of casual, minor or inconsequential. MR. NEALE: There really -- that is really an issue of fact to be determined by the Board. It is not -- there's not a whole lot of case law on it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why did you immediately say casual and inconsequential on the electrical? MR. NEALE: I didn't. What I said is, the Board would have to determine that that was casual, min -- that it was not casual, minor or inconsequential. And, you know, the argument can be made that it is not casual, minor or inconsequential. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. NEALE: Which is what -- the making. MR. OSSORIO: The term minor, considered -- it's more of a specialty trades. argument Mr. Ossorio is inconsequential work is In other words, if a li-- if Page 30 December 17, 2003 an unlicensed or handyman painter went out and painted your door or painted your garage door, that's minor inconsequential work. He's not out there painting your house and being a painting contractor. You're not going to get a licensed painter to go out there and paint your door or paint your garage door. That's minor, inconsequential work when a handyman's doing a multiple variety of things on a house for you, for a homeowner. And that's just one of the things we look at. But if it's a -- the four major trades, electrical, plumbing, mechanical, whatever those natures are, we don't -- the county has a stance, this is not considered minor, inconsequential work. This is actually considered, you know, contracting without a license. And we take it seriously. MR. NEALE: Yeah, and if I may just bring one more point to the attention of the Board. If the person represents, as I say, that they are qualified to engage in contracting, there is no exemption, regardless of the dollar amount, regardless of whether it's casual, minor or inconsequential. And contracting is defined as the act of-- they define contractor, not contracting, but, you know, obviously contracting is something that's done by one who is a contractor. A contractor is one who, for compensation, undertakes to, submits a bid to or does himself or herself or by others construct, repair, alter, remodel, add to, demolish, subtract from or improve any building or structure. MR. BLUM: Was there in fact a hole in this roof?. MR. LLOYD: MR. BLUM: hole in the roof?. MS. KELLER: I would like work that you were doing -- MR. BLUM: Yes, exactly. MS. KELLER: Yes. There was a hole in the roof?. And you repaired a to have you explain exactly the -- so we can determine whether it's casual, minor Page 31 December 17, 2003 or inconsequential. MR. KUJAWA: What I was doing there? Okay. They told me that they had a -- the ceiling was getting wet. I said well, must be coming from the top. So I went through the crawl hole, I went into the attic, and you can spot it right away, the wet section. MR. BLUM: In the roof-- in the roof you saw a wet spot in the roof coming -- you saw it on the plywood -- MR. KUJAWA: Yes. MR. BLUM: -- in the attic you saw a wet spot? MR. KUJAWA: Yeah. MR. BLUM: Okay. MR. KUJAWA: It was -- and not only that, but it looks like some -- it must have been old, because it was kind of rotten. Just small section, but it was rotten. So I told him, you're going to have to be replaced, the sheet of whatever necessary is from stud to stud and put a new piece of plywood and redo it. MR. BLUM: Did you do -- you were going to just cut out the plywood, replace it inside, you were going to go on the roof and take out the shingles and do the paper and seal it and all that? MR. KUJAWA: Yeah, the black paper, the -- MR. BLUM: You were going to be on the roof?. MR. KUJAWA: On the roof, yes. MR. BLUM: And inside and make the top to bottom inside out repair? MR. KUJAWA: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. BLUM: That doesn't seem inconsequential -- MR. JOSLIN: How large -- how large a hole was it? How large -- how large -- what size did you take out? MR. KUJAWA: Not much. I cannot put my head into it. Once I cut it -- once I cut it, yes, of course, I have to put myself in. But originally it was a small one. Page 32 December 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, and you replaced a piece of plywood two feet wide; is that correct? MR. KUJAWA: Two-by-two -- or 16 by two. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Major problem. Major problem. And it is not consequential. And what you've created is a dangerous hazard for somebody else, because you can't replace a piece of plywood two feet wide and nail it to tresses, because the next person that walks in there, that thing's going to break loose and give way and they're going down. You have to span at least three trusses. Okay, you answered my question. It was not consequential and it has created a hazard for somebody else. You don't do it that way. MR. KUJAWA: What can I say? MR. NEALE: I think the Board -- MR. KUJAWA: I replaced the piece that was bad. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. I'd like to know who they are so if they call me, I don't go out there and fall through the roof. MR. KUJAWA: It's five-eighth plywood, you don't fall through it. Between 16 inches. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You don't toenail a two-foot wide piece, either. MR. KUJAWA: I don't use nails, I use screws. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Immaterial. MR. BLUM: The reason for licensing is because people don't understand the right way to do it, and this is what's happened. And, no, it wouldn't leak anymore, but God help the guy that walks on it. And that's what we're all about. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just for your knowledge, when a person comes down and gets what you call a maintenance/handyman -- well, there's not really a handyman licence, but it's a maintenance license, they sign an affidavit telling the county and the staff that they will not be pursuing any kind of electrical, plumbing, mechanical, drywall, painting, there's a whole variety. And they sign that affidavit Page 33 December 17, 2003 and they date it. So we go back and we see if they actually signed it, dated it and they know about the ordinance and about the codes. Unfortunately he didn't go down and get the proper license number, or whatever it is, and get the proper maintenance license to do that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, because I work with handyman people all the time and they always call us for that type of work. Any other questions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How do you feel? What we're being asked, he is protesting the citation, which is $300. Mr. Neale, will you read the options? MR. NEALE: Yeah, I'll be glad to. If the Board-- this is under 489.127. If the Board finds that a violation exists, the enforcement or licensing board may order the violator to pay a civil penalty of not less than the amount set forth on the citation but not more than $1,000 per day for each violation. In determining the amount of the penalty, the enforcement or licensing board shall consider the following factors: Number one, the gravity of the violation; number two, any actions taken by the violator to correct the violation; and three, any previous violations committed by the violator. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So we can waive it, we can reduce it, we can increase it. MR. NEALE: You cannot reduce it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We cannot reduce -- MR. NEALE: You cannot reduce it below the amount stated on the citation, if you find him in violation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We can increase it or void it, correct? MR. NEALE: You can void the citation, you can increase it to 1,000 per day per violation, or you can fine any amount between 300 and 1,000. Page 34 December 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. BESWICK: Mr. Chairman? I'd like to know if anybody went back and made a repair subsequent to his work. MR. BLUM: That's where I was going to. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know. MR. LLOYD: We don't know. MR. BLUM: In other words, part of the recommendation, as far as I'm concerned, if we say, okay, he's got to pay the fine, but this homeowner is now left with a bad situation that's got to be rectified by somebody, and is -- whose responsibility is that? They have to be told that they've got a wrong job here and they've got every opportunity now to seek redress to get it done properly. MR. HOOPENGARNER: Mr. Chairman, in answer to that question, I have contacted the homeowner, and he advised that he has not made any further repairs, that the repair was satisfactory to him. MR. BLUM: Is he aware of the consequences of the way it was done? MR. HOOPENGARNER: I don't believe so. I talked to him and he advises that Mr Kujawa has done much handy work for him. And, in fact, he knew that the gentleman was not licensed, but he still had him go ahead and do the roofjob repair for him. MR. JOSLIN: Well, $125 is cheaper than $600. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I wouldn't have done it for $125. MR. BLUM: Ignorance is bliss here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, wishes of the Board? MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, I have a question for staff. It's obvious the man has been very straightforward with us and told us that he advertises in the paper, and I see those ads every day that I read the paper in the classifieds, and there's a ton of them in there that don't respectively quote license numbers. Some that do quote license numbers as handyman services. And since we don't have a handyman license, where are they getting this number from? Is this an Page 35 December 17, 2003 occupational license for miscellaneous? And what can -- what steps can be taken to review these things in the paper that are so blatantly obvious that they're advertising to be contractors, what can we do, what steps can staff take in order to stop this further action from happening in the future to other unsuspecting consumers that may not know and condone unlicensed activity? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I know what Mr. Ossorio does, so I want him to tell you. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Hoopengarner and myself, we actively go into the paper, call the individual in the office, if there seems to be a license infraction with the number or with an occupational license, to make sure he's in the category and he's doing proper work. We do that probably daily, we do that monthly, and we can -- you're more than welcome to come down to our office and you can check out our numbers and you can also check out, you know, our paperwork and see what we actually do. On the other note is that when they do sign up for the occupational license for tax, they sign an affidavit stating the fact that they will not be doing any kind of this classification, the major trades, electrical, plumbing, mechanical. And so when they do that, you know, it's -- the minimum fine is 300, the second fine is 500, and the third fine we usually bring in front of a -- what you call civil process, and they go in front of a judge, Judge Turner or Judge Baker. That's what we do. MR. LEWIS: Thank you, Mr. Ossorio. But one other thing. Mr. Kujawa here has evidently been advertising for several years in the Naples Daily News. How has he passed through the system? MR. BARTOE: I will answer that. He's advertising -- he stated anything, any time, anywhere. That would not be enough in my mind to give him a citation for advertising 'without a license, because he's not advertising I do roofing, I do plumbing, I do electrical, I do this. To me anything, any time, anywhere is not enough to issue a citation Page 36 December 17, 2003 and bring him before this Board. MR. OSSORIO: One of the things we have to do is we have to be careful when we do do probable cause. What is the cause of bringing this person in. And if he does advertise or promote himself to be a contractor, he has to state what kind of work he's going to do. There are some in there that you'll see that has, you know, painting, handyman, roof, minor repair work, whatever that might -- we'll bring those individuals in and we'll give them a summons or we'll give them a warning, a written warning. But if you just say -- promote yourself to be a handyman, we usually don't bring you in. MR. LEWIS: So we just basically wait for that smoking gun then? MR. JOSLIN: Is there any avenue that can be taken -- now, maybe this is something that has to be investigated further but, to -- it seems like there is no handyman license, per se, right? Collier County has no handyman license. However, we have now in Collier a newspaper that is taking individuals that are advertising that they are handymen. Is there any avenue that the Board or -- not the Board but that staff or the attorneys could advise Naples Daily News that they are really aiding and abetting unlicensed contracting? MR. LLOYD: Well, from a consumer side, if I am not able to change a lock in my front door and I hire somebody to do that, that could be a person in the neighborhood who could be a handyman. He's not operating, or she's not operating as a contractor. It's someone that has a skill -- mechanical skill to do something that I need done that I can't do myself, that -- or they change a pane of glass in a door, so they're-- MR. JOSLIN: Right. I understand that, I'm only talking about the verbiage -- I'm only talking about the verbiage that's in the newspaper, that's being put out in the newspaper that there are handymen out there, and some of them are even putting out license Page 37 December 17, 2003 numbers. MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, but the problem is, it's not considered construction, so we would have no jurisdiction on that because it's not construction, it's just a tax. And how they want to advertise is up to them. But once they cross that line, that's when we have to get involved. And we did talk to Naples Daily News many years ago about this, but, you know, we get no response. MR. NEALE: What I have seen in some newspapers where they have a section that does this, is they actually do have .a statement saying that certain trades, certain activities require a person to be a licensed state contractor, and contractor license by the state or the county and you should check to make sure that they have the appropriate licenses before hiring a contractor. And, you know, there's all the advertising on TV that you see that, but some newspapers actually do slug that into the -- the advertising section. MS. KELLER: I think that Mr. Neale should write something up that we recommend that they put into the paper and send it to the -- MR. NEALE: We probably -- I would say that anything like that would probably have to go through the Board of County Commissioners for their -- MR. JOSLIN: I don't think that would be anything out of the question -- MR. NEALE: But I think it would be appropriate for this Board, if they so choose, to recommend to the County Commission that the County Commission request the newspaper to do that. Because it is -- it is something that -- MS. KELLER: Because from the consumer point of view, I mean, you're trusting a handyman that you call that he knows what he can and can't do, and the consumer has no idea. MR. LEWIS: And a consumer also sometimes doesn't realize that an unlicensed activity, even if it's changing a lock or a pane of Page 38 December 17, 2003 glass, a man can slip and fall and own your house. So, you know, and that's what, you know, the state has so lovingly advertised all across the media that, you know, make sure you have licensed, you know, activity when you do something. So besides belittling this area, I would make a -- I'm ready to make a motion, if there's no more discussion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio's got a comment. MR. OSSORIO: I just want to make a quick point. Mr. Lewis is actually correct. If you're a contractor, taking the exam is just one part. Getting the workers' comp. insurance and getting the liability and presenting that to the homeowner is imperative. And when you're a handyman, it's not considered construction, so those -- it's like a big loophole. And there's nothing we can do about it until the smoking gun, they call us up and say well, this handyman does this kind of work and then we have to go after him. That's exactly what happens. MR. LEWIS: That's right. And there's very little legal recourse to the consumer from that point of them not being licensed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: From a consumer point of view, everyone who's licensed knows that they're required by state law in every commercial advertisement to list their license. But if you go through the phone book, which is another issue we've fought for years, about half the ads don't list the license. And AT&T is fully aware, Sprint's fully aware that that's supposed to be in there, but they're in the business of selling. They could care less. That's another thing Mr. Ossorio and the staff do with each new phone book is they go through and check licenses to ads, and then they also call the people that don't show a license; am I correct? MR. OSSORIO: That is correct. But it's unfortunate, you're dealing with the Yellow Pages, so you call the gentleman in, you instruct him how to conduct his business and then what do you do with the advertisement? It takes a whole another year. MR. NEALE: Very true. Page 39 December 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Sprint's been addressed, we've fought AT&T on that for years. They don't care. And they're not bound by state law to do it. And the only way you're going to get anything done -- you can send all the letters you want. We fought this issue forever. And we will continue to fight it forever. Unless they're bound by some state law to verify licenses and make sure that they're in every ad, this will continue. Am I right, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: You're precisely correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I haven't found -- I don't think sending a letter to Naples Daily News is going to do a whole lot of good. MR. NEALE: It may have some impact if it comes from the Board of County Commissioners and it's a specific request on their behalf. MR. BLUM: Meanwhile, this man's standing, doesn't know what's going on and we -- MR. LLOYD: Mr. Kujawa, do you plan on continuing your handyman services? You -- I mean, that's something to supplement your-- your Medicare, did you say? MR. KUJAWA: No, just because -- because of that ad in the newspaper, I have been contacted by a homeowner that was looking for a caretaker, and I got that job. MR. LLOYD: So you're not going to be doing handyman activities? MR. KUJAWA: No, because it's -- it's better for me because I don't have to drive anyplace here and even this and that. It's one steady place. MS. KELLER: But I believe, was your son also at the site of repairing the roof?. MR. KUJAWA: Say again? MS. KELLER: Was your son at the site as well, repairing the roof?. Page 40 December 17, 2003 MR. LLOYD: Was your son on the roof with you when you were doing the repair job? MR. KUJAWA: Oh, yes, my son. Yes, yes. MR. JOSLIN: Double trouble. MR. KUJAWA: He just got out of the Navy and he's come to see me. I said hey, give me a hand here. Yes, he was there. MR. JOSLIN: First I'd like to make a motion that we do send a letter from the County Attorney's to the Board of Commissioners to see if we can put a remedy to Naples Daily News and their advertising methods, number one. MR. LEWIS: I'll second that. MR. NEALE: Mr. Zachary-- MR. LLOYD: Well, let's deal with this gentleman, too. MR. NEALE: Mr. Zachary and I will prepare a letter that -- for your review at the next meeting that will then be sent up to the Board of County Commissioners. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We'll hold the motion till that time. MR. NEALE: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Now let's deal with the case. MR. LLOYD: You had a motion. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, I have a motion for the floor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. LEWIS: After review of the citation and the information presented, I would make a motion that we find that there was a violation of Collier County.ordinances and Statute 489.127 of the Florida statutes requiring anyone engaged in the business to act in the capacity of a contractor or advertise self or business organization as available to engage in the business or act in the capacity of a contractor, in this instance as being a roofing repair, without being duly registered or certified. And that the citation stand as issued. MR. BESWICK: Second. Page 41 December 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.I have a motion. Any discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) MR. NEALE: Now the Board needs to evaluate what the penalty is going to be. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want me to read one? MR. NEALE: Well, just -- I need a recommendation of penalty, whether it's going to be the amount set out -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That was in the motion. MR. LLOYD: It does state -- MR. NEALE: That was in the motion? MR. LLOYD: -- in the citation yes, which was $300. MR. NEALE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Kujawa, I hope you understand, we -- our hands are tied. We either had to do away with the citation or increase it. We cannot reduce it. So you are going to have to pay the $300 and the citation stands as written. And if you ever decide to do any more handyman work in the furore, be advised you need to get a license. But we cannot void that citation. MR. KUJAWA: What a person supposed to do if he doesn't know? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ignorance is no excuse. MR. LLOYD: If you want to -- if you don't know about something, the best thing is to go to an agency or ask somebody what the proper procedure is prior to engaging in that activity. In other words, if you thought you wanted to do handyman activities, you should have gone to the agency that handled that, oversaw that, which is the -- Mr. Bartoe's office and ask what is the procedure if I want to Second, who? Page 42 December 17, 2003 do this in this community, and that way they would have talked to you about the miscellaneous license; is that the correct word? MR. BARTOE: Miscellaneous services, yeah. MR. LLOYD: Miscellaneous services license that you would have to have. And anything, when you're not sure, try to find out information prior to moving forward, you know, with that activity. So if you don't know, ask, find, go to the government, go to somebody and ask them what are you supposed to do before you start. Because you could end up with a penalty, as you have here, a $300 penalty for your actions. MR. KUJAWA: I went -- the way I put my ad in the newspaper, by looking at it on the advertising section, that's what it said, different handyman, different -- you know, they claim to be. So I said, why not? So I went into it too. MR. JOSLIN: This is what we just spoke about. This is the reason why we're talking this. MR. LLOYD: The reason the citation stands is because you engaged in doing something that requires a specific license. If you had been doing something else, you probably -- you know, something minor, changing a lock or something, you would not have been cited, because there's no required license for that. You engaged in something that requires a specific license. That's why the citation stands. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Citation stands. Just because you didn't know. That's too bad, you should have known. I submit you probably did know. Especially being from Califomia. I was licensed in the State of California, and they have the same laws there. So in the future, that isn't going to hold. Case is closed, citation stands. Thank you. MR. KUJAWA: I have one thing to stay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Quickly. MR. KUJAWA: I have been told, you cannot beat 12 members Page 43 December 17, 2003 of a jury of anything by being single and not knowing, okay? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very good. Thank you. MR. BLUM: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next case. Yes. MR. BLUM: I have a very real concern about this homeowner in his naive faith in this gentleman. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll have -- we'll have county contact him. MR. BLUM: Yeah. The man doesn't realize what he may be facing. It needs to be made real clear to him. I'm really concerned about that, I'm sorry. MR. HOOPENGARNER: I can elaborate on that a little bit. I think this man does know. This wasn't a homeowner, it was a rental property. The man owns a big business and has several rental properties out, and he got his job done at a price he liked is exactly what it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Case closed. Moving on. Thank you, sir. MR. KUJAWA: What do I do from now? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: yOU. Pay the citation. Good-bye. Thank Next case is Becky Alzamora. Are you present? Would you come forward, please. I need for you, if you would, to state your name and have you sworn in. MS. ALZAMORA: Becky Alzamora. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And is the other gentleman with you going to testify? MR. ALZAMORA: Yes, sir, I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Go ahead and state your name and we'll swear both of you in at the same time. Save that. Page 44 December 17, 2003 MR. ALZAMORA: Leo Alzamora. (Speakers were duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, since we are treating this as a case -- MR. OSSORIO: Pardon me, Mr. Dickson? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: We'd like to go ahead and submit composite Exhibit A into evidence. Case No. 2003-03. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right. That's what I was getting ready to do is set up the case. We need to submit the packet and the county will first present their case, you will present your rebuttal. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: I'm sorry. We might be able to dispense with the formalities. I believe Mrs. Becky Alzamora is going to go ahead and contest that she was in violation, and go on with maybe the penalty phase or maybe discussion about she does have the proper insurance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wonderful. Let's first, I need for someone to make a motion to enter in Composite Exhibit A. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we enter into Composite Exhibit A. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MR. LLOYD: Second, Lloyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, Mr. Ossorio, I still need for you to make an introduction of the case. MR. OSSORIO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to give you a brief synopsis of the case, on November 26th, 2003, 11:00 a.m., I witnessed Tropical Tree Service,. Incorporated conducting business at 124 Granville. And you can see on my Page 45 December 17, 2003 Composite No. A-E-8, it shows that there -- unfortunately there is four employees using heavy equipment. As you can see, employee number one, employee number two, and employee number three conducting tree trimming and tree removal at that location. We did interview the employees, they did state to us that they were working for Becky Alzamora. A stop work order was issued on the premise that there wasn't any kind of a workers comp. policy there for the homeowners' protection. We notified Leo Alzamora, who is the vice president of the company. He was very straightforward, he was very honest and very candid by saying he didn't have proper insurance. I believe he did come into compliance at a later date. The homeowner was satisfied with the job, but he wasn't too satisfied about not being covered under workers' comp. in case something happened on his residential property. And if Leo Alzamora or Becky Alzamora wants to elaborate on that a little further, they're more than welcome to. If you have any questions about the penalty phase, you can -- I'm here to answer any questions for you, or Robert Zachary as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which one of you would like to talk? MR. ALZAMORA: I'll talk. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, sir. MR. ALZAMORA: I've been running the business for a while now. Just my wife, I'm her husband. I did not have Workmen's Comp at the time. We just started the business a month and a half ago at the most, about two months maybe. And I just got it. I am sorry, I did make the mistake not having Workmen's Comp on us like that. And I've been looking for it, I couldn't get it. Finally my cousin came up to me and says, here, go with this guy. I find him, Jim was real nice, mentioned to me if someone got hurt on the job, you know, I'll be liable for a lot of stuff and the homeowners, too, which, you know, I'm very sorry. I do got Workmen's Comp now. You know, what can I Page 46 December 17, 2003 say? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you by chance have a certificate of insurance with you? MR. ALZAMORA: Yes, sir, I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to see it. Thank you. For the Board members, it is Phelps and Associates in Fort Myers. The -- it is just workers' comp. It's a -- this is the FCB&I Fund so it's through the state, correct? MR. ALZAMORA: I'm not sure. Bob Phelps is the one that set it up for me. I really don't know much about it. You know, I'm learning on it now. You know, and I'll probably know a little bit more as time goes by, you know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tropical Tree Service, Incorporated. The thing that kind of throws me for a loop here, I do have a policy number, inception date of 12-16-03 and expiration date of 4-1-04. MR. ALZAMORA: Right, I got to renew the policy. I think it's going to go to a payroll status on March, and April it goes over. And everybody's got to renew the policy, from what I understand from Bob Phelps. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And you're not exempting anybody, or are you? MR. ALZAMORA: Right now the exempt is me, my wife and my dad that works with us. The one guy in the office -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So there's three of you? MR. ALZAMORA: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And do each of you own at least 10 percent of the corporation? MR. ALZAMORA: She owns 50, I'm 50 and then my dad owns 10 percent. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, 50, 50 and-- MR. ALZAMORA: I know we put down -- put my dad down for 10 percent about three days ago with Borro's -- my accounting office, Page 47 December 17, 2003 which is Borro's Accounting. We put down him as 10 percent. I don't have the paperwork in front of me, but I know that (sic) what it was. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So you're aware of the new law -- MR. ALZAMORA: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- that goes into effect -- MR. ALZAMORA: Yeah. I got my accounting to set me up and he's the one that put me all through the paperwork. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, I just want to clarify something real quick. Leo Alzamora started the company a month and a half ago, but that's not all the truth. The truth is that Leo Alzamora has been in business for many, many years as a tree service contractor back in the early Nineties. And then he let it lapse and then he worked for his brother who owns a tree company as well. So he's -- the new company might have started a month and a half ago, but he's -- the Tropical Tree Service, Incorporated has been in business for many, many years. MR. ALZAMORA: About ninety -- since about '93. MS. ALZAMORA: But it has not been active. MR. ALZAMORA: It hasn't been active about five years. MR. OSSORIO: That is correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. The insurance is a big issue to me, especially since two months ago we had a tree service company in here and the gentleman was paralyzed for life, having fallen out of a tree. MR. ALZAMORA: one that got paralyzed company. That's Lee San -- well, Lee Santos was the for life. I don't know if it was the same CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's who it was. MR. JOSLIN: The license is activated now, as of we speak? MR. ALZAMORA: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: How did the license get activated without Page 48 December 17, 2003 workmen's comp. insurance to begin with? MR. OSSORIO: My understanding is that the girls in the office, what they do is they put a "to be filed" if it's a new company. It takes a little longer than -- he's filed the exempt. He didn't tell us he was going to have any employees, that's another thing as well. If you're going to be exempt, you need to go ahead and file with our office. But it sometimes takes the paperwork, from Tallahassee to the office takes a little while, and we'll give you an active license, and it has to be noted that a "to be filed" has to bring -- once you get your exemption form, you need to bring it down to go ahead and put it on file. But you can see that on the -- I think it's on the Page E-6, it says the workers' comp. insurance, and it says none, and it says copy to be filed. MR. JOSLIN: Gotcha. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who educates the county? Are they aware of the new law? MR. OSSORIO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Are they aware that the state legislature just approved a six-month extension -- MR. OSSORIO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- for those people that need to get incorporated? MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, Jim and I just got back from a seminar in Coco Beach, and we had the seminar with the workers' comp. agent from Tallahassee. And we're in constant communication with the office over on the other coast, which is the Miami office. They come over once a month. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: exemptions now? MR. OSSORIO: Oh, yeah. Okay. So everyone understands the We also -- to my knowledge, we're also going to be getting five more workers' comp. agents for Naples and Ft. Myers office, so they're going to beef up the area as well, since Page 49 December 17, 2003 this is a highly constructed area. MR. JOSLIN: What's the status quo of the exemption? The status quo is to what, June 1st, is that what it is? MR. OSSORIO: On some cases it will be June, but others, there is no exemption. I mean, come January 1st -- I think Mr. Hoopengarner can attest it. Come January 1st, you need to get yourself incorporated. But there are some clauses in there that will let you go for six months. But you've got to follow that stipulation, whatever that might be. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, you have to get incorporated to do the exemption, and in your case -- MR. ALZAMORA: I went to Maggie. Maggie is the one that told me about everything, the new laws coming in. I went through the whole process -- we went through the whole process of getting incorporated. You have to get -- you know, that was the new law coming in. So I automatically went to Borro's, I said, listen, I need to be incorporated. He went through the whole steps for me. He did everything for me. I went to exemption and that's how we got a license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I just throw at you, I wish they would do away with the exemptions, only because like in your two cases, you're doing mostly sales, and you're probably doing clerical. For you two to exempt yourself, you can go on supervision or salesman, you can go on clerical. It's pennies for the coverage. It's the cheapest insurance coverage you'll ever get. So that's why a lot of these 10 percent owners are very foolish to exempt themselves. Get in the proper category and it's cheap insurance. So consider that. MS. ALZAMORA: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So basically you're saying yes, you did it, I'm wrong? MR. ALZAMORA: Yes, sir, I admit to it, I was wrong. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gotcha. Page 50 December 17, 2003 Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I need to read a finding of the facts? MR. NEALE: Yes, you do. Obviously I can go through the whole thing, but since they've admitted to the violation, the Board really doesn't have a major issue, I think, in finding that they were in violation. But yes, the Board does have to have a finding of fact, conclusions of law. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. NEALE: And then also once they have -- the Board has voted on the violation, then the Board will also have to review the violation as to the sanctions to be imposed by the Board and all. Once you're done with this, I'll give you the charge on the sanctions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Board members, what I'll need as motion to find -- Becky Alzamora, to find her guilty of Section 4.1.6. And then after we have that and get that motion through, I'm read the finding -- findings of fact and then we'll go on to the penalty phase. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I'll make a motion that we find Becky Alzamora, d/b/a Tropical Tree Service, Inc. in violation of Section 4.1.6. MR. GUITE': I'll second it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Board of Collier County Commissioners, Collier County, Florida, Contractor Licensing Board, petitioner, Contractor Licensing Department versus Becky Alzamora, Page 51 December 17, 2003 d/b/a Tropical Tree Service, Incorporated, Case No. 2003-03. License No. is 25418. This cause came on for public hearing before the Contractor Licensing Board on December 17th, 2003 for consideration of the application -- oops, wrong one. Well, yeah, application submitted to MR. NEALE: This is an administrative complaint. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- yeah, the Board for review. The type of application set out before it, which is a complaint. Findings of fact -- I've got the wrong one, Mr. Neale. But that's the new one, isn't it? MR. NEALE: No, that's the second entity. There should have been an order form in the packet, but -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I'm going by stuff that I keep in my packet. MR. LLOYD: Mr. Neale's going to bring you the form, the verbiage. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Here we go. I got it -- I got it right here. Okay. Oh, that's order. Here we go. MR. LLOYD: He has it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got all these things in here, I have to keep them. MR. NEALE: That's why Mr. Dickson stays Chairman, he's got everything in his file. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. This cause came -- everything else I said so far is okay -- came before public hearing -- the Contractor Licensing Board on December 17th, 2003 for -- that Becky Alzamora is the holder of record of Certificate of Competency number -- license No. 25418; that the Board of Collier County Commissioners of Collier County, Florida is the complainant in this matter; that the Board has jurisdiction of the person of the respondent, and that Becky Page 52 December 17, 2003 Alzamora was present at the public hearings and was not represented by counsel. All notices required by Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as amended, have been properly issued. The allegations of fact as set forth in the administrative complaint are approved and adopted and incorporated herein by reference as finding of fact. The conclusions of law alleged and set forth in the administrative complaint, which are 4.1.6, disregards or violates in the performance of his contracting or her contracting business in Collier County any of the building, safety, health, insurance or workers' compensation laws of the State of Florida or ordinance of this county. That they are -- our Board, based upon the foregoing findings of fact, conclusions of law, pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter 489, Florida Statutes, Collier County ordinance 90-105 as amended, and by a vote of nine -- eight in favor and zero opposed, they were -- I need a new form -- the charge was found to stand. Now we go into -- is that sufficient, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This one has been obliterated so many times. MR. NEALE: Want me to bring this over, Mr. Dickson? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Do you need that to read your MR. NEALE: No, that's fine. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- penalty phase? The respondent has been found in violation of the charges as set out above by a vote of 8-0. Now we need to go into what the penalty phase is, and Mr. Neale is going to read you the options. MR. NEALE: Correct. In determining the sanctions to be imposed on the respondent, the Board may, but is not required to, impose any of the following sanctions, alone or in a combination: Number one, revocation of a Collier County or city of-- Certificate of Page 53 December 17, 2003 Competency; two, suspension of a Certificate of Competency; three, denial of the issuance or renewal of a Certificate of Competency; four, a period of probation of reasonable length, not to exceed two years, during which the contractor's contracting activities shall be under the supervision of the Contractor Licensing Board and/or participation in a duly accredited program of continued education directly related to the contractor's contracting activities; number five, restitution; number six, a fine not to exceed $5,000; number seven, a public reprimand; number eight, a reexamination requirement; number nine, denial of the issuance of Collier County or city building permits or requiring the issuance of permits with specific conditions; and number 10, reasonable investigative and legal costs for the prosecution of the violation. When imposing these sanctions, the Board shall consider all the evidence presented at the hearing, as well as, number one, the gravity of the violation; number two, the impact of the violation on the public health, welfare or safety; number three, actions taken by the violator to correct the violation; number four, any previous violations committed; and number five, any other evidence presented at the hearing by the parties relevant as to the sanction which is appropriate for the case, given the nature of the violation and the violator. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does staffhave a recommendation? MR. OSSORIO: Staff recommends a one-year probation and a minimum fine of $1,100. And that would be if the workers' comp. agent was on the site. Due to the fact that it was a new business, a month and a half old, that would be the minimum fine, $1,100. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Open to discussion on the Board. MR. JOSLIN: Did the -- did staff advise Ms. Alzamora that when she got her exemption and opened the new company that the workman's comp. was hav -- was going to have to be purchased at this time? We're talking a month and a half since the business has been reinstated, right? And then in the meantime now this violation has Page 54 December 17, 2003 happened; is that the case? MR. OSSORIO: When you file for an exemption, you're telling the county basically you don't have any employees. I'm going to work by myself and my corporate officers, and that's going to be about it. We can't tell if they're going to go through a leasing company, like many do, or they're going to be just doing business as themselves and work with the exemption. So at that time we did not know he was going to have employees, no. Just the exemption was going to be filed within a month. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The other problem I have is, Mr. Ossorio, when I asked if the county is educated in this exemption issue, a month and a half ago the law had already been passed and everyone knew that it was coming up. In fact, I think the law was passed, Mr. Neale, last summer, wasn't it? MR. JOSLIN: It was June, I believe. MR. NEALE: It was in the second regular-- second special session, I think it was. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So my question is, when county says someone tells them they're going to be exempt, why a red flag didn't go up. MR. OSSORIO: I cannot answer that, Mr. Chairman. Maybe Tom Bartoe can or next staff meeting we can bring the support staff and I can tell you how the process works. But I can't tell you how the office staff works. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because I hate to see these licenses issued when they're going out the door in violation of workers' comp. law. MR. OSSORIO: Maybe Leo Alzamora can -- when he got his license he can contest (sic) to what the staff said to him. MR. ALZAMORA: The only thing they required for you to have is workman's exemption, they give you a license and that's it. But by knowledge, truthfully, I'm not going to lie to you, I do know that you Page 55 December 17, 2003 gotta have workmen comp., you know. That's my saying, the county really doesn't say nothing about workmen's comp., they just have to have your exemption to get your license and you're out the door. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's an issue county needs to address, because these licenses should not be issued. MR. GUITE': I can contest (sic) to that, because when I got my license, it was just proof of workmen's comp. or exemption. And I've had up to five employees that, of course, I had to go out and get the workmen's comp. for, but there's no requirement from the county, just the state. MR. OSSORIO: That -- that is correct, but I don't know what the girls do in the office, but in this particular-- in this particular light of case, it wouldn't make a difference if he filed the exemption or not, he had four employees. MR. NEALE: The issue of-- you know, you're imposing a duty on staff unfortunately if you do push them to do that. Because then if somebody comes in and says I'm electing to be exempt, you're almost forcing the counter staff or the -- Maggie and the group to sit there and say, I think you're lying to me, buddy, you're not really going to be exempt because you're going to have employees. So I think that's a pretty heavy burden to put on the staff that's working there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But it's not with the new law, Mr. Neale. Because it's very cut-and-dry on exemptions, and if they're exempt, there's a state form proving that exemption. Now, we say it's a burden. Every time I go down to file a permit, starting the first week of January, they're so backlogged on new certificates, they put a hold on every permit because they don't have my new Certificate of Insurance entered into the computer. MR. OSSORIO: That is correct. But we're talking about a new business. And I believe, I'm not sure, I can't speak for the staff, and next meeting we'll surely have them here. But I believe in a new business, we might give them a leeway of getting the -- if they're Page 56 December 17, 2003 going to claim exempt, we'd give them a leeway of a month or two to go ahead and file properly to get the coverage into our office so they can conduct the business. Now, is it right? I have no idea. But we'll find out for you. We're talking about new businesses, not old businesses. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Well, the new business has got so much more one-on-one at that point. But they do track us in the county. Any licensed company, number one, I can't get-- renew occupational licenses, nor can we pull permits if our insurance is not up to date. MR. OSSORIO: That is correct. If you try to pull a building permit, if you're not in the active state, then you will not get any inspections, or you won't get a building permit. MR. JOSLIN: Was there any problem on the job itself where anyone got hurt? MR. OSSORIO: No. Homeowner was very satisfied. They cleaned up what they were supposed to be doing and they went on with their business. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion for penalty phase? MR. LLOYD: I have -- I want to discuss one thing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's discuss. MR. LLOYD: I'm in support of the probation recommendation, but I think $1,100 from my perspective is a little high. I don't know the figure. That would be the first -- am I correct in saying that would be the -- that's the amount assessed for first violation? MR. OSSORIO: By the workers' comp. agent, if it's a new business -- and it's fairly new, within a month and a half-- the minimum fine is $1,100. Now, if he's been in business longer, I'm sure Leo Alzamora can contest (sic) to his brother, if you've been in business longer and you were -- they track you for three years, your fine could be 10, 15, $20,000. Page 57 December 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have there been any previous complaints? MR. OSSORIO: None. MR. LLOYD: I just, for the record, wanted to note that I think an $1,100 fine is a bit high. MS. KFJLLER: Well, I've noticed that the job was $25 per tree and there were several hundred trees. So just the money that they made alone on doing this job was substantial. So I don't really -- MR. OSSORIO: I've talked to some contractors, and that is the norm of-- so they didn't underbid or they didn't overbid. So it wasn't like the price was exorbitant or lower. So it was -- it was a price that most contractors would use if they had workers' comp. for insurance. So they weren't trying to save any money. MR. LLOYD: $700 was the project. We're just discussing verbiage in this composite. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion from the Board? MR. JOSLIN: I'd like to make a motion that we -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wait, Mr. Lewis has one already. MR. LEWIS: Excuse me, Richard. Mr. Chairman, on the Certificate of Insurance you received from the Alzamoras, what is the starting date of that? Did you say 12/16 -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 12/16/03. MR. LEWIS: So that was yesterday. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. LEWIS: Okay. My comments about the fine is that had the insurance started and actually been back dated to incorporate the activities that they're being fined for, I might be a little more lenient on the fine, considering that those would have covered the activities there. It's kind of like a moot point. But since they do not, then I don't -- I don't have a problem with the fine. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The only thing I'll throw at you is an insurance agent cannot back date. They have to go with the date of Page 58 December 17, 2003 when it was -- initiated the claim. This was 12/16. I mean, obviously at the same time the timing was very good to get this done before this meeting today. MR. ALZAMORA: I've been working on it since I got caught by Jim. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MS. ALZAMORA: Ever since we got caught we we've been trying to get insurance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And that's true. MR. ALZAMORA: I was just glad it was here before the date -- today's date, you know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If-- if you're not actively in your company right now, workers' compensation insurance has become a badge of honor. I'm going to say 25 percent of the companies in construction have been canceled for no cause. Many companies are not rewriting construction trades. A new company starting out with Maggie, if you have no history, they're asking 50 to $100,000 deposits up front. Worker's compensation is an absolute nightmare. Getting the coverage at any price. What you don't want to do is what this gentleman had to do, go to the state fund. The state fund is usually twice the premiums of regular insurance companies. But being a brand new business, no insurance company would take him. MR. GUITE': Also, if you only have one or two employees, it's hard to find a company that will take you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It is. If you don't have a premium of at least $50,000 a year, they don't want to mess with you. So it's -- you can't imagine what's going on in this industry right now. MR. OSSORIO: Well, there is alternatives with the leasing companies, or you can go to day labor and you pick out, you know, a yellow slip and it tells you I lease four or five of these employees per day. I'm sure they're not quality employees, of course, but that is -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Having tried that, Mr. Ossorio, let me Page 59 December 17, 2003 tell you-- MR. OSSORIO: CHAIRMAN alternative. MR. JOSLIN: I have not tried it. DICKSON: -- point blank, that is not an No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That is a nightmare. Because I can tell you tons of companies that have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars for taxes that were not paid by leasing companies, leasing companies that skipped town, didn't deliver checks. And now most of the leasing companies are in off-shore operations. MR. OSSORIO: Well, I can't contest (sic) to that, I can just tell you what's out there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's not an option. MR. JOSLIN: In most of the trades. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You just hit a button here. MR. OSSORIO: That's fine. Hit a nerve. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we've had-- any other comments before we do -- and you can comment after the motion, of course. Any other comments? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You still ready? MR. JOSLIN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go. MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion that Becky Alzamora has been found in violation of this charge and the penalty phase be -- place her, this company, on one-year probation which will be monitored by Collier County staff to ensure that this workmen's comp. policy that we have in front of us at this moment is kept active, because as of this date it only goes to April 1 st, and that the fine be $1,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a motion; do I have a second? MR. LEWIS: I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? Page 60 December 17, 2003 MR. LLOYD: My discussion is I think I would like to see a fine of less than $1,000; maybe $500, half that. That's just my input. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? MR. BLUM: My take is that we need to support staff and their recommendations. They work on this constantly, they're aware of all the ramifications, and I think we need to support our staff. MR. JOSLIN: The reason why the $1,000 I think stands is because I have watched many, many tree trimmers, I've watched many, many of those gentleman put on that chain saw and climb up those trees, and I know I can see something going to happen. And if it wasn't for the fact that Mr. Alzamora admitted himself that he knows he had to have workmens' comp. insurance -- in a brand new business, he didn't know, well, I would have backed away a little bit. But under the circumstances, I think $1,000 is a reputable (sic) at this point, penalty. MR. NEALE: If I may just make one comment to the Board, not on the fine but the probation section, is that while they are operating under probation, that probation can be revoked at any time by this Board. You have to call a hearing with notice to -- for that purpose, but the board can revoke that probation at any time, based upon recommendation of staff, typically is the way it works. Staff comes to you with a notice that they have not lived up to the terms of the probation, this Board can revoke that probation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. The motion is that -- one-year probation, $1,000 fine. All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 7-0 -- or 8-0. Based upon the foregoing findings of fact and conclusion of law Page 61 December 17, 2003 pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter 489, Florida Statutes, and county cor -- Collier Ordinance 90-105 by a vote of 8 in favor and 0 opposed, it is hereby ordered that the following disciplinary sanctions, related order, are hereby imposed on the holder of contractor of Certificate of Competency No. 25418, Becky Alzamora, and that is your one-year probation and a $1,000 fine. That's it. You understand the move. Are you okay with this? MS. ALZAMORA: Fine. MR. ALZAMORA: We're fine with that. Just one thing, on breach of probation, what -- you know, what is characterized as a breached-- a broken probation? Not having workmen's comp. again or -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not having workers' comp. again -- MR. ALZAMORA: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- or not covering employees. MR. NEALE: Or committing another contracting violation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Contractor violation. MR. JOSLIN: Which not having workmen's comp. will be a contracting violation, and I'll guarantee you, you don't want to come back here again. MR. ALZAMORA: I understand that. But if, say, something happens, you know, and all that. probation. Because nobody knows can happen, you know. That's why I'm saying breach of the future and something always Workmen's comp., I understand I do have to have insurance because I plan to have more than four guys working, you know. And I'm going to have -- if I want to stay in business, I'm going to have to go by the law. I understand that. Okay. But let's say if I go down the street and somebody complains on me on something minor, you know, where it's a tree or something, is that a breach? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no. MR. ALZAMORA: All right. Page 62 December 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just don't pay your employees cash, and report them on your workers' comp. MR. ALZAMORA: All right. I'm getting up -- we're getting a payroll thing set up and everything already. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your comp. is cheap. I'm in the fifties per hundred, so don't complain. But the last thing you want is the workers' comp. fraud division on top of you. MR. ALZAMORA: All right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Yes, sir. MR. OSSORIO: What is the time frame for the fine? Would you say before the probation period's up or-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I was thinking -- how soon can you pay the $1,0007 MR. ALZAMORA: I'll pay it tomorrow morning. Tell me where to pay it. MR. JOSLIN: I'll give it 30 days, then, how's that, just to leave in a number open. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where does he pay it? MR. LLOYD: Mr. Bartoe? Mr. Bartoe, where does he pay the $1,000 fine? MR. BARTOE: To our department. MR. LLOYD: To you. MR. OSSORIO: I guess you want to come to talk to Maggie and Karen, and we'll write you up a slip. MR. NEALE: Checks payable to the Board of County Commissioners. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you for getting things straightened out. We appreciate it. MR. LEWIS: Thank you for your honesty. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The one that didn't ever show up is Rebecca Lopez. If you all would keep that in your docket, or keep Page 63 December 17, 2003 that with your papers. Thank you, Mr. Neale. You have a message on there I didn't answer. Are there any reports? MR. BARTOE: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All of you did get a copy of the new Ordinance No. 2002-21. Please hang on to that, keep it with your papers that you bring with you each month to the meeting. This is replacing -- is this different than the one we already have, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: The ordinance that you've got today? MR. ZACHARY: I think most of the -- I made it for the new ones, and if anybody's copy's dog eared and they want an update -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. BARTOE: I believe most of the members that have been here for awhile have had that ordinance. MR. JOSLIN: I think we had the one that had the stricken lines through it; wasn't that the case? That had some lines struck through it and all that. We wanted the one that was kind of just like -- okay. MR. BARTOE: Did everyone get a copy of the tentative Board schedule for the next year? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next meeting is scheduled for January 21 st. Anybody see a problem not being here? MS. KELLER: I think I might not be here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Just one. Maggie will continue to call you, just to make sure, but we look okay on the quorum. We were missing one person today, because the Board is full, isn't it? MR. BARTOE: Yes, sir, it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have anything else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. JOSLIN: So moved. MR. LLOYD: MR. GUITE': Do we have a motion to adjourn? I'll make a motion that we adjourn. Second. Page 64 December 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Thank your help. everybody for There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:50 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY CODE ENFORCEMENT BOARD LES DICKSON, Chairman TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. BY CHERIE NOTTINGHAM Page 65