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CCPC Minutes 10/19/2017October 19, 2017 TRANSCRIPT OF TTIE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION Naples, Florida, October 19, 2017 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Planning Commission, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m., in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Govemment Complex, East Naples, Florid4 with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Mark Shain Stan Chrzanowski Patrick Dearbom Diane Ebert Edwin Fryer Karen Homiak Joe Schmitt ALSO PRESENT: Raymond V. Bellows, Zoning Manager Corby Schmidt, Principal Planner Jeftey Klatzkow, Cormty Attomey Heidi Ashton-Cicko, Managing Assistant County Attomey Scott Stone, Assistant County Attomey Tom Eastman, School District Representative Page I of 73 October 19,2017 PROCEEDINGS CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, everybody. Goodmoming. Welcome to the October 19th meeting of the Collier County Planning Commission. If everybody will please rise for Pledge of Allegiance. (The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Will the secretary please do the roll call. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Yes. Good moming. Mr. Easfinan? MR. EASTMAN: Here. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Mr. Chrzanowski? COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Here. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Mr. Fryer? COMMISSIONER FRYER: Here. COMMISSIONEREBERT: Ms. Ebert is here. Mr. Sfrain? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Here. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Ms. Homiak? COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Here. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Mr. Schmitt? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Present here. COMMISSIONER EBERT: And, Mr. Dearbom? COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Here. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Addenda to the agenda. We have a couple of changes. The last item on today's agenda is 9E. It's called Livingston Village, but it's also known as Marbella Lakes. That's a PDI, and it needs to be moved to our next meeting. There were some problems with getting it scheduled for today. And our next meeting would be the I 1 -- or lll2,rhe 2nd of November. So with that in mind, is there -- COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I thought it was supposed to be for the 16th. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Pardon me? COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I thought it was supposed to be for the 16th. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ray? Does it -- what do you - COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Our email. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 16th or 2nd. Does it matter to stafl Or what has stafflooked at as far as timing goes for Marbella? MR. BELLOWS: 16th. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 16th, I'm sorry then. It will be -- we need to continue - a motion to continue to the l6th of November. COMMISSIONER FRYER: So moved. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Made by Ned. Seconded by Karen. Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: AII in favor, signiffby saying aye. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Aye. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Aye. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Aye. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? Page 2 of 73 October 19, 2017 (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 7-0. Next item I want to add, under new business, every year in October I ask for a confirmation ofCCPC officers or nominations, if someone is so inclined. So I want to add that under No. I I - or 10A as the only item under new business that we have at this point. And then I have a -- I had a discussion with the court reporter during the beginning ofthe meeting, and her office needs to know approximately what we think time fiame today so they can potentially reroute hcr if she's not going to be here. The problem is I can't figure out how much time we would need for the AUIR. I think the cases we have and the other issues can be resolved this moming. The AUIR has sometimes taken us half a day or more, and sometimes it's been very short. I, myself, have reviewed it all. Most of the issues I have are rather shoft in nahue, so I don't think I'll be taking a lot of time, but I don't know how the rest ofyou have looked at the AUIR. Does anybody think they're going to need - because if we have questions of every department, that means there's going to be a lot ofpresentations, and it will take a considerable amount of time, and that's okay. But I just need to let the court rcporter know. So what do you all think? Anybody want to spend a lot of time on the AUIR? Ned? COMMISSIONER FRYER: Mine are few. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Joe, you're new - COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Likewise. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - you and Patrick. You guys okay - yours are few, Joe? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I was here last year, and we did it, and this year is - most of the things that came up last year have been fixed this year, so I don't have many questions. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, then, as we go through the moming, we might want to consider, if we're getting into the AUIR and we can furish it up before 2:00 by working through lunch orjust takrng a short break for lunch, maybe that's the solution we can look at at that time as well. But, Terri, I think the consensus is we could probably be done by 2 o'clock, unless something extraordinary happens this moming. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Thafs 2 a.m., right? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 2 a.m., yeah. It will be like last week. Okay. That will take us to Planning Commission absences. And, Ray, do we have a meeting on the 2nd ofNovember? MR. BELLOWS: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. So that's why I was wondering, since Marbella went to the 16th, if there was a reason. If not, then, does anybody know if they're not going to be here on November 2nd? COMMISSIONER FRYER: I'll be here. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Looks likes we'll have a quorum. Thafs what we're mostly concemed about. Yeah. MR. BELLOWS: We did some checking, and there are no items tertatively scheduled. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Oh. Well, "tentatively" means you cant have anything because youle got to advertise 35 days in advance. MR. BELLOWS: Yes. Well, I 5 days. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: But you've got to -- MR. BELLOWS: Yeah, we start earlier. CHAIRMAN STRAN: The process starts 35 days in advance, so that means youve not advertised anything. So we don't have a meeting on the 2nd? MR. BELLOWS: Correct. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Without discussion, there was a second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So our next regular meeting is November 16th, and so we've got a quorum for the l6th? Evcrybody know if they're not going to - anybody know ifthey're not going to be here? you Page 3 of73 October 19. 2017 don't have your calendar? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I think I will be absent on the l6th. Let me check. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, if you think that, still leaves six of us, so wete still good. It's okay, Joe. Okay. Approval of minutes. Ray, there were no minutes electronically distributed that I saw. I don't see any in the agenda, so we dont have any to approve. MR. BELLOWS: That's correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: BCC report and recaps. Do you have anything, Ray? MR. BELLOWS: Yes. On the Board of County Commissioners October 10th meeting, the Briarwood PUD amendment was continued to the 10/24 BCC, and the PUD amendment for Cimrs Pointe RPUD was withdrawn. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And while you mentioned the Briarwood, I might as well fill in the Planning Commissioq what happened with that one, a very interesting h]m of events. There apparently is an eagle's nest being made or constructed by an eagle on the north part ofthe site, and that may have some impact on Briarwood. It's already passed us to the Board, so I'm not sure how the Board's going to weigh in on that, but that is a new twist that happened on that particular project. I just got the information on that last week. That brings us down to the Chairman's report. I don't have anything other than what we've already talked about on the agenda. So No. 8A is our consent agenda. Joe? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Well, with Briarwood, if there's an eagle's nest, it just simply impacts the U.S. Fish and Wildlife and whether they're going to pursue a tale permit or not. It wouldnt have any impact on the mning. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, it would, because according to the LDC, if you have an eagle's nest, it's got to be heard by the EAC. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Oh, correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We didn't hear it as the EAC. So - and I'm not sure if it means an eagle's nest that's completed and occupied or one that's started and maybe not finished. So I think they'll know that by the time they get to the Board hearing. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Well, regardless, even if it's started, they'll need a Section 7 consultation, and the listed species analysis is part of their 404 permit process. So that will determine whether the govemment's going to step in and require a take permit. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. And our part's only to meet the intent of the LDC, and that's what - I'm sure the Board will weigh in on that. t+*So the consent agend4 the fint item up and the only item under consent is Item 8A. It's PUDZ-PL20160001985. It's consent for the Cleary RPUD. On consent it's just a discussion by the Board or any questions and it's to assure that the document finished by staff is consistent with what the Planning Commission provided as recommendations. I'm assuming everybody has read the document. Does anybody have any comments, questions, or anyhing at this point? COMMISSIONER FRYER: I have a question or two. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Am I correct that the blue underlining is what was added? It's not green, but blue? For instance, on Page 6 of 12, there's a footnote, "structures such as gatehouses, walls," is that new, that language? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Page 6 of 12, let me see what my notes say. COMMISSIONER FRYER: It would be Footnote l. CIIAIRMAN STRAN: Well, you know, it's interesting. I saw that, too, and it is the same footnote that was on the table that was originally included in the document. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Conect. Page 4 of 73 October 19. 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And I think theyjust repeated it there. So at that point -- it is new because they added, I believe, all those accessory standards at the request ofthis board. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I just really have a question about the word "walls," and that is, what kind of walls arc we talking about, and do we need to further clariff the meaning of that word in that context? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But I'm not sure it's something we discussed at the original hearing. Consent can only be to elaborate on issues directed at the original hearing that may not have come out as we expected. So do you recall if that came up during discussion? COMMISSIONER FRYER: I don't recall, and I'll withdraw it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Does anybody have anything with the language that was discussed and changes that were made? Because I had a - COMMISSIONER FRYER: I have another one also. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Pardon me? COMMISSIONER FRYER: I have another one. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Go ahead, sir. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Under - let's see, on Page 11 of 12, this is also in blue underlining. 78, it says, roofs shall be cement or slate tile materials or other approved equivalent. Now, I think I know who the approving authority is, but shouldn't we clarii/ that further? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ray, should that be County Manager or designee for clarification? MR- BELLOWS: Yes. CIIAIRMAN STRAN: Do you mind making that clarification -- or the applicant will be making that application. Staffwill veriff it when it goes to the Board. MS. GUNDLACH: Yeah. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anlhing else, Ned? COMMISSIONER FRYER: I thought I did, but I dont. Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. I had a little problems trying to rurdentand what to do with this. When the motion was made, there werEn't any stipulations other than the discussions we had during the meeting. There was a second; there was some discussion about various issues. I know I voted in the dissent, but in doing so I listed a bunch of issues that we t$ically look at - and some werent but some were -- that we look at when we deal with these kinds ofprojects. And I think Ned said that we ought to add language to "encourage," and I think that's the word that came out in the end; the applicant to usc as many ofthose as feasible. Now, that's pretty ambiguous, but I notice the consent didn't follow what I had provided, and they were -- there were some ofthose that were more feasible than others. So I don't know fiom the panel, those that voted in the affirmation, voted for this action, whether they feel the ones that were addressed were consistent enough or should more have becn addressed. And I don't really know how to approach it berause this was al anomaly. It was a motion made without stipulations, and then they were - they were added as an encouragement, not as we normally do. So I'm not sure how to look at this today. I didn't - I read the document. I found problems with quite a few issues. For example, we tlpically look for dumpster locations because they are noisy operations they come at 5:30 or 6:00 in the moming and they wake people up. I suggested, as part ofthe stipulations, a dumpster location and the potential for a generator location be shown on the master plan so that the people next door don't get disturbed by it. I didn't see those notations on the master plan. I also noticed that the generator will be equipped with a noise attenuation device or shall be enclosed. Well, ifyou all experienced Collier County during Hurricane Irma and afterwards, noise attenuation on a generator is a simple liftle mufller, and you can still hear it a block away, so I'm not sure that's golng to accomplish the goal that this board intended for those that voted in the affirmative. I'm willing to go along with it. I'm just telling you I don't think it was - it wasn't as tight as I would suggest we would have wanted to kcep it. I also noticed that the 30-foot buffer got include - it was expanded to 30 feet -- but there was no mention of additional vegetation. So when you take a buffer and you go from 15 to 30 feet, it increases your sctbach but ifthe vegetation remains the same, it achlally may be sparser - there may be more distance Page 5 of 73 October 19, 2017 bctwc€n the vegetation than if it was a narrower buffer. Likewise, the applicant had volunteered to supplement t}te buffer over in Sahrmia I-akes when they apparently met with the people over there, and they said the reason they didn't bring it up is because no one asked them to. Those things weren't addressed. And, again, I'm asking this panel what your thoughts are on it. And if you're satisfied with it, Ill go along with iton consent. But because I wasn't part of the affrmative side ofthis argument, I wanted to make sure that those that were are satisfied with the product they got. So anl,rvay - and, fuchard, if you dont mind, this is a discussion amongst us. I know you're standing at the podium for a reason, but l'm not sure wete going to need to get to you. So - any,;vay, Stan. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Ordinarily, I would think those items are covercd during thc Site Development Plan, like the noise attenuation at the generator, the siting of the dumpster. That's usually part of SDP review. They look at it and they say, this is a bad spot for it. Please move it. I don't remember ever having to put that into a PUD document, but - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, the only rcason - I thought we had - they typically show therq so it's not that much of a discussion. But if you have a -- there's no - there's no code that says during an SDP they've got to move a dumpster location where staffthinks it's best. They can put it anywhere the code allows, which is basically the setback you have here. So it could go as close to that side of the property wherc the houses are as the setback would allow, in this case 30 feet. The only thing I'm suggesting, when you have a PUD and it's wide enough, you'd put everlhing on the opposite side ofthe project away from the existing residential. But again, I'm pointing this out because I thiok next time I will try to shess a better way of approaching it. If you guys are comfortable with this consent document, then I will go along with it. Joe? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Yeah, I made the motion, and then after you clarified, I thought - and Id have to go back and look at the minutes, but I thought I agreed with the additional comments you made and asked to have those included in the final PUD document; the discussion about - I don't recall about the dumpsters but definitely recall the issue with the quiet generator, and that certainly could be stipulated. It should be stipulated in the document clearly stating the locaiion or that they would have to install a quiet generator, which certainly is available on the market today. You can - those t1'pe of generators are available. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Well - and I -- had you accepted all my stipu - I would have voted in the affrrmative, and I know you didn't part - two ofthem I know the applicant wouldn't agr€e to. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Right. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Although I know previously - I thought they would compromise there, but thcy didn't when it actually got down to the hearing. One is that deviation for the FAR, and the other is the density for the single-family. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Those were the two - the FAR that you disagreed with. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And the density for the single-fanuly. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Density for the - CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: Those are two I dldn't expect to see. The encouragement was for the rest of them. And if you all feel, as the affirmative parties, that the encouragement is sufficiently met, I'm fine with it. I wanted to point that out to you, though, because that was a point of discussion last time. I just wanted to be on record as at least pointing it out, so... COMMISSIONER FRYER: I noticed the absence of that as well, and if memory serves, I had made a motion to encourage something, and it was approved the first time. Then the second time I guess I got out a little ahead of my skis, and I think the County Attomey began having some acid indigestion over hortatory language like "encourage" in these documents, and so I didn't pursue it. And I think it just either failed for a lack of second or a lack ofvote. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. I mean, I'm fine with the classification as you stated. I just wanted to make sure that we discussed it. So does anybody, then, have any f rther corrections or changes to the consent document? Page 6 of 73 October 19, 2017 (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Hearing none, is there a motion to approve the consent as consistent with what we recommended at the last meeting? COMMISSIONER FRYER: So moved. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Made by Ned. And seconded by? COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Second. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Second. CHAIRMAN STRAN: BY Stan. Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: A1l in favor, signiff by saying aye. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: AYe. COMMISSIONER FRYER: AYe. COMMISSIONER EBERT: AYe. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: AYC. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: AYe. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: AYe. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: AYe. CHAIRMAN STRAN: AnYbodY oPPosed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 74. That takes us to the fiIst two items up on today's regular agenda, and both are a continuation fiom the October 5th meeting. The fist one - and we'll hear thern - we'[ discuss them and hear thern simultaneous, but lve'll vote on them separately. ++]The first one is the Crrowth Management Plan amendment for the Vanderbilt Beach Road/Collier Boulevard commercial suHistrict. It's PL20 I 50002 1 67, and the second one is the PUD for that same subdistrict. It's PL20150002166. All those wishing to testiff on behalfofthis iten\ please rise to be swom in by the court reporter. If you're here to address us on this item, please srand up. (The speakers were duly swom and indicated in the affirmative.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Dsclosures from the Planning commission. Tom, we'lI start way down there with you. MR. EASTMAN: None. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: SIAN? COMMISSIoNERCHRZANOWSKI:othathanthatlastemailfromFred-andmymemory doesn't go back real far - but I don't rernember talking to anybody about anlhing about this. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: OkaY. Ned? COMMISSIONER FRYER: The exact same answer other than the email fiom Fred' CHAIRMANSTRAIN: Diane? COMMISSIONER EBERT: No one. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. And for me, I have had meetings with staff. I talked to the applicant, various parties with the applicant. IVe received emails. I've also received emails from the clmmunity itself. I talked to Terrie and Bev by email; copied that stuffto the staff so everybody basically has it. And we'll be discussing the items that all the parties brought up today. I did receive changes fiom Fred yesterday. I did not have time to review them agaiost what was supplied by staff. I suggested to him that we need to walk through every single change item by item today to make sure everybody turderstands it, and that's what we will do. Karen? COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Nothing. Just emails from Fred. CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: JOC? Pagc 7 of 73 october 19, 2017 COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: No additional conversation other than riding up in the clevator just now with the entire crew that is with us today. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Patrick? COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: None. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. With that, Fred, I'll let you start out then. I mean, I'm assuming most ofus are going to be focusing on the PUD, so that's probably the document we ought to stay with until there's a question fiom the GMP. MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. And we'll just dive right in. I actually have copies to hand out to you all, so we can just follow along \.yith the updated changes. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MR. HOOD: Just a quick question. I have two versions, and it's whatever your pleasure is. I've got the redline vcrsion, and then I've got the clean strikethrough/underline version. Which would you rather? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I think the redline underline/strikethrough is the one we ought to work offof, then we can readily see the changes, so... COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Agreed. MR. HOOD: Perfect. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Did these come in an email? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: These came in an email yesterday, but I didn't have time, from the time they came in, to cross-reference them to all the new material we received from staff, because Fred indicated - Fred Hood indicated some ofthese he wasn't sure whether they were consistent with the staff package or not, so that's why we have to walk tkough them all. MR. HOOD: AIso, we met with Black Bear Ridge last night just to make sure we had everything perfect, so there are some changes from last night that are in this document. So anything that you would have received fiom me via emait - anything that you would have received from me via email gets replaced with this document. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MR. HOOD: Okay. Let's start on the first page, and this was - this change was from the county aftomey's comments. The addition of the words "successor" and "trustee" on the one, two, three - the fourth paragraph, if you will. "George Vukobratovich, as successor trustee ofVanderbilt Commons." That has been complcted. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MR. HOOD: So I've circled the word "trustee." Ttrat was the addition and will - COMMISSIONER FRYER: Actually a reinsertion, right? MR. HOOD: Reinserlion correctl ycs. sir. Second page, Roman Numeral II on the table of contents. We changed - this is for the redline version. When you get the clean copy, the page numbers will change again because we have some formatting that happens when you're in the Word program. So in this version the page numbers are 17 - 16 and 17 for the preserve area plan atrd these development commitments. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. And you said the second page. It's really the third page of the document you handed out, right? MR. HOOD: Yeah. Roman Numeral Il; sorry about that. Our next change is on Page 3, and it is, again, the reinsertion ofthe word "kustee." CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. It's on your Page 3 of changes but - okay. That's scveral pages in on the document. MR. HOOD: Correct. So I was going with the - from the beginning from the cover and then all of the table of contents and so forth. So now we're actually on No. 3. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MR. HOOD: Okay. The next change is - and this is where we start getting some of the brg changes is on actual Page 9. This is Scction 3 for the mixed-use area plan. So there's two things here. When we met with Black Bear fudge, they agreed with us for two uses to be added. We've had conversations wrth the County Attomey and with staff about adding SIC codes at this point. I have placed them in this document for Page 8 of 73 October 19, 2017 us to review. They wanted us to leave them in so we could go over them. So the first change that you will see highlighted in green. 7922, we had a drscussion with Black Bear Ridge. They wanted to be able to have a commrmity theater. That's what that SIC code is for. I've added it here for discussion purposes. If you all want to have a discussion about that, great. The next change - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Wait a minute. So 7299 - MR. HOOD: 7922. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 7922 - MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - iS tO Add thE - MR. HOOD: To add the community theater use that they wanted. CHAIRMAN STRAN: I don't have my SIC code because I didnt know this was coming up' COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I do. MS. AS ON-CICKO: And we told him that they could not add uses. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, we can add uses here at this meeting. I mean, we have in the past. you're telling us -- this is what the meeting's for. I don't think - I don't think it would have been appropriate to do it ahead of time, but - MS. ASHTON-CICKO: Well, we didnt advertise for adding any uses at all. So I'd advised Mr. Hood that he could not add uses unless - we didn't advertise for adding uses at all' CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So when the advertisement - there's no generic language h the advertisement that said they are - I mean, obviously it's a PUDA -- MS. ASI{TON-CICKO: No. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - instead of a PUDI. So as a PUDA it wasn't advertised as a rezone? MS. ASHTON-CICKO: No, we didn't - I didn't put anything. They were adding square footage, but none ofthe uses were changing, which I would ordinarily mention that uses were added in the advertisement. That was not thi proposal. So we told them, if you would like to readvertise, he may add uses. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: OkaY. MS. ASTIION-CICKO: Because therc are people who might be here if there were additional uses being added. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Then in that case, if we were to consider this and try to add it without the proper advertisement, are we prohibited from legally doing that? would it be considered not valid? MR. KLATZKOW: You're subject to a challenge. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: OkaY. COMMISSIONER FRYER: So we'd continue it then or withdraw? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No. Itjust depends. Ifthe applicant wants to accept the risk ofa challenge in regards to adding this on the fly, that's one opportunity. If the applicant wants to withdraw just that one item-and continue on with the rest of it, as long as it's not considered a IBzone in the eyes ofthe Attomey's Office, then we're probably okaY. And ther! again, I'll tum to this board, if you're okay with that. I mean, I don't - to be honest with you, gnder amusement and recreation in some ofthese items that are so comparable, I'm not sure it's going to Le - they're in - it's in conformity. If the residents in the area dont have an objection, I'm not sure why it's a problem. So it,s a risk that the applicant may want to take, and it may not be one that concems us too much. I'll ask you all what you'd like to do. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Who is it that wants to add this? MR. HOOD: It's the applicant and Black Bear Ridge. MS. ABRAMS: We agree. MS. SMITH: We agree. CHAIRMAN STRAN: I'm sorry. We have to wait till you get up to the microphone. Thank you. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Who on behalf of Black Bear Ridge agreed? Is it the HOA? Page 9 of73 October 19, 2017 MR. HOOD: It is thc HOA, yes, sir. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Okay with me. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: It was in there before, though. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 7299 is the one - COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: It was crossed out from the last one we had, so it was - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: There's been - MR. HOOD: It wasn't one of the original ones in the original PUD. So since we're making an amendment to the entire PUD, if that SIC code was not in the original, it's an addition now this in this amendment. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Mark? CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Getting back to a previous hearing when a whole bunch of people showed up and said the HOA doesn't represent us, who does the HOA represent? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ms. Abrams, you or Beverly, one of you want to come up and address that question, if you could address that question. You'll have to identifu yourself for the record. MS. SMITH: Beverly Smith, 7278 Acom Way. We have -- we are here. We are both board members. Terrie's president; I'm a director; however, we have made this very public to our community. Everything we have done, we have notified our homeowners what we're doing, how we're doing it, and the issues. The -- when we went through this to discuss possible uses, the applicant did ask for a possible playhouse, community playhouse. We had no objections to it, and that's why they added it to this use today, along with the other one which is the hardware store. We have - like I say, we have been very open with our community, not like the issue with the other community I know you're talking abut from the last meeting. Wete had public meetings within the community, and they're aware of everything we do. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Does that answer your question; Ned, Stan? Okay. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Will you take it then - could you say, ther, that there was a consensus among the homeowners to approve this or not to oppose it? MS. SMITH: I would say they would not oppose it. COMMISSIONER FRYER: There was a corsensus to that effect? MS. SMITH: Consensus. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'd be hard pressed to say the community that you live in doesn't know about this action. You guys have been working this for quite a while. So I feel comfortable putting it in as long as the applicant understands the ramifications and the challenge - MR. HOOD: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAN: - and we'll just go from there. MR. KLATZKOW: Could we get the applicant just to state on the record that they undentand the risk involved here and that they prefer to proceed anyway? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: George, you'll have to identiff yourselt and spell your last name, George. MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: George Vukobratovich. V-u-k-o-b-r-a{-o-v-it-h. Yes, I understand the risks, and we worked diligently with Black Bear Ridge in the community, and I mean diligently, so this is public notice. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: The mike's not picking you up. MR. VL.KOBRATOMCH: Thrs has been public notice, and we worked hand in hand with the HOA to achieve this today. COMMISSIONER FRYER: So youte acknowledging your understanding on behalf of the applicant? MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: Yes. sir. MR. KLATZKOW: When we advertise this before the Board of County Commissioners, tt's going to include changes ofuses. Page l0 of 73 October 19, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Good. Then we're covered. Thank you' And let's move on, then, through the issues. Fred, as you take each one of these - you're on number one right now. I think if the panel has any questions about any ofthe numbers as we go through thern, just bring it uP. And number one does pose a couple of questions, and I was going to rely on Ned to pick this up, but since he hasn't brought it up, I think I will. Under the first line where it says "except of all dance halls and discotheque," you don't need the words "ofall," do you? MR. HOOD: No, we don't. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. And under 79999 (sic) where it says, "only for bicycle rental," you don't need the word "for." MR. HOOD: Yeah. We can take that out. That's a grammatical on€. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. I mean, they're not going to change anfhing. I just thought - MR. HOOD: Fine. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I thought we'd clean it up. And I thought Ned was going to pick that one up. MR. HOOD: AbsolutelY. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Let's go on with - walk us thmugh the rest of this thing' MR. HOOD: Okay. And still on number one, we -- it's highlighted here in yellow, you can see we added gymnastic instruction, judo mstruction, karate instnrction, and yoga instruction, and all of those are found under 7999. We werejust being very specific ofwhat we wanted to have allowed there. Moving on to No. 2, the same thing. In -- there was a deletion of the 561 I through 5699; it is now only 56i I anO ieSS. And then we also added except thrift stores - thrift and suplus stores, also highlighted in yellow. CHAIRMAN STRAN: So it's not 561 I through 5699. There's supposed to be a comma? MR. HOOD: Conect. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 561I comma 5699. MR. HOOD: Correct. CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. The except thrift stores and surplus stores applies to which one of those numbers? MR. HOOD: I believe it is the second one, the 5699. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Then you wouldn't want a comma after 5699? MR. HOOD: No, sir. The comma is in the wrong spot. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, just so we get it right. MR. HOOD: Yeah. This was me doing this at about four o'clock this moming, so I'm sorry if that didnt make it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I want to make sure somebody from staff is making sure they're accurately gefting all this. MR. REISCHL: Got it; thanks. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: OkaY. MR. HOOD: Just a - Fred has a copy of this, but in the clean version, it does show up that way. It's just the nature ofthe beast when we were doing redline documents, some things, when they're underlined, don't show up correctly. So I'm sorry about that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, just so you - I mean, redline is what we mostly try to use. It helps us a lot, so that's the only thing I was - MR. HOOD: Okay. Next change, we removed Nos. 3 and 4, aulo supply stores, with all of the additional SIC codes that are under there, and then automobile parking. This was a request fiom Black Bear, and we agreed to it. So we'll have some renumbering after this. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: OkaY. MR. HOOD: Moving on down to number - renumbered No. 4, we struck 7322 SIC group, and then just renumbered the SICs, because before it was 7322 through 7331. So now we have taken out 7322 and the next available one was7323. So that's why you see those highlighted and undolined. It'sjust the removal of Page 11 of 73 October I9. 2017 7322. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MR. HOOD: Number 5, this was a scrivene/s error fiom the original. There is no 6199, and that was in the original PUD document. So we were going to do 6021 through 6099. We were asked by Black Bear Ridge to take out 6099, so we are just doing 6021 through 6091. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Who caught that? MR. HOOD: Which part? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That 6199 isnt - MR. HOOD: That 6199, I did. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Did you? Goodjob. MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMANSTRAIN: Okay. MR. HOOD: Our next change happens on Page - next changes happens on Page 10. Under eating places, No. 6, we added the language "no free-standing food stands and/or kiosks are permitte4" and drat was a direct request ftom Black Bear Ridge. And then we also changed the subsections. We originally had A tkough D that talked about sound and hours of operation. We discussed this with Black Bear last night. And what you see in front of you is the product ofthat meeting. So what the second change is in A, 6A, no televisions, outdoor amplified sound, devices, or live entertainment shall be permitted in outdoor seating areas. The next one is B, Lots 5 and 6 as shown on the Vanderbilt Commons subdivision plat recorded in Plat Book 60, Page 3l of the public records of Collier County shall have the following limitations: Roman Numeral I, no outdoor seating shall be permifted; Roman Numeral lI, the hours of operation for any eating place shall be limited to 6 a.m. and 4 p.m.; Roman Numeral III, loading and deliveries shall be fiom the fiont entrance only, and the consumption - and, Roman Numeral IV, the consumption ofalcohol is not permitted on these lots. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MR. HOOD: Okay. That was, again, all from our meeting with Black Bear last night. B through - the original B through D were shicken. They didn't want those in there. Going on to No. 7, thrs was, again, kind of a reorganization of the SIC codes. Some were taken out; 823 l, specifically, and no regional libraries. So the change you see there highlighted in yellow, 8222 comma 8243 tbrouSt 8249 comma 8299. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. Now, we're in the same situation with these as far as adding uses that weren't there before, so -- MR. HOOD: So this one, I dont think - this one wasnt an addition. It was a deletion ofone use, but the way that it was previously stated in the PUD - and I can show you that in the PUD document as soon as I grab it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Because the last version we have it was 8211 through 8231, and it ended there, and with no regional libraries. MR. HOOD: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Now, some of these were back in the original October 5th or whatever date we had, the original one? Okay. MR. HOOD: So if you look here on the original PUD document, in No. 9 we had 821 1 through 823t. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. MR. HOOD: So wete still within the same number grouping. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, no. You added 8243 through 8249 and 8299, didn't you? MR. HOOD: Oh, I'm sorry. You are correct. That is one that I did miss; again, fiom lack of sleep. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, that's going to have the same issue -- MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - with noticing that the County Attomey's Office is going to have to do Page 12 of 73 October 19' 2017 when they take care of it for the board level, and it's at risk for you guys because ofthe way it's being added on the fly here. MR. HOOD: Conect. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Do you have the SIC book that tells us what 8243 through 8249 and 8299 are? MR. HOOD: I do not have it on me right now, but Bruce does. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So does Karen. I borrowed hers. I want the rest ofthe panel to understand and the public - I'm sure the public does. I know that they've been working this up with you guys for some time, and they've beur very detailed. 824J is data processing schools and computer training; 82,14, which is one ofthe only other numbers, business and secretarial schools; 8249 is vocational schools not elsewhere classified. That includes aviation schools, bankrng schools, construction equipment operation schools, corr€spondence schools, mrsing schools, restaurant operation schools, trade schools, truck driving schools, vocational apprentice haining. Some of those may be a little intense for here. You may want to -- I'm not sure 8249 is appropriate in all of its manner. 8299 is schools and educational services not elsewhere classified, and this gets into automobile driving inshuction, ceramics, charm schools, civil service schools. I'm looking at any that might be - flying instruJtion, finishrng schools, hypnosis schools, public speaking schools, speed reading schools, tutorial and survival schools. So with that in mind, when the public comes up and speaks, if you have any concems -- I don't know how detailed you looked at all those uses, but we certainly will look forward to hearing fiom you. MR. HOOD: Yeah. And Terrie and/or Bev will come and speak to those. Those were direct additions from Black Bear. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Mark? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: YCS. CoMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Could I ask a question about one of the previous items? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: AbsolutelY. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: The one above that, 68 and C. So I understand now they are allowed amplified sound after 10:00 and live entertainment? MR. HOOD: No, sir. What we were trying to do there in 64, for all eating places throughout Vanderbilt - I'm sorry. Was the questions to him or - CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: No. but I think he's .. it's a good question, but A takes care of it. It's encompassing the whole site, MR. HOOD: Correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But specifically 5 and 6 you've got a little more rtstrictions, because that's the northemmost sites adjacent to the neighboring Black Bear Ridge. MR. HOOD: Correct. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: OkaY. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, let's move on. COMMISSIONER CHMANOWSKI: I was just wondering what the logic was, but now I see it. MR. HOOD: Okay. Moving on to No. g. This is - I'm sorry. This is whsre we removed the dash between 5311 and 5399. We have limited it to just 5311 and 5399 except any variety stores, single price point discount, surplus, overstock and liquidation outlets CHAIRMAN STRAIN: See the comma after 53992 MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAN: I don't think it should be there. MR. HOOD: Get rid of it. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. I know that's a little thing, but there have been times that commas mean a lot. MR. HOOD: We're doing it now. We may as well get them all out. Okay. No. 10, this falls under our original green added uses. Hardware stores, 5251, and the applicant has acknowtedged that they'll take the risk in adding it now. So that was a desire from the applicant Page 13 of 73 October 19. 2017 and for Black Bear fudge. And 5251 is specific to hardware stores. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, 5251 is builders hardware retail; chainsaws retail; door locks and locksets retail; hand tools retail; hardware stores retail; tools, power and hand, retail. So it's more -- it's hardware stores, but it also could be various tool stores; retail not rental. MR. HOOD: Right. CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: There's no limitation on size. So you could - theoretically, you have 150,000 square feet to play with. I know youte building a strip mall out there, but you're looking at a store of a sizable magnitude if it's all hardware. Did they expect a Home Depot or a Lowe's there? MR. HOOD: No, we don't expect a Home Depot or Lowe's. It's more of a neighborhood hardware store. So I think we'd be okay with 10,000. No more than that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. The other greetwas 7922, and whrle I have the opportumty to borrow Karen's book, I'd just like everybody to know what - 7922,whtch is where the motion pictures issue came in. 792 (sic) is for theatrical producers except motion picture, bands, orchestra, and entertainers. So I'm wondering if we have the right one there. MR. HOOD: There's a lot more in that list, as I recall. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. Agents and managers; ballet production; booking agencies; burlesque companies; casting agencies; communiry theater productions; concert rnanagement service; costume design; employment agencies; legitimate theater producers - I guess there's an illegitimate group out there - opera companies; performing art center productions, plays; radio programs; rental and theatrical scenery; repertory stock companies; road companies; scenery design; stock companies; suffner theaters; tclevision programs; and a whole bunch oftheatrical things and vaudeville companies. Now, that sounds like a lot of things when all they're trying to say is you could have a neighborhood - like a - what's that silver screen or something like that. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Silverspot. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Silverspot. MR. HOOD: Paragon. But those fall under motion picture theaters. They're not community theaters. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: So you're not trying to do a motion picture theater? MR. HOOD: Correct. It's under - it was under the first one for amusement and recreation, so that's why we placed it there. The actual motion pictue - and we'l[ get to that in the next couple here -- was actually removed, and we have limited it to, I think it was, rental for videotape stores or something like that. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. As long as everybody knows what uses we're talking about. MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. MR. HOOD: And, again, just - you know, just to reiterate, these were directly from our meetings with Black Bear. So I'm sure they'll have a conversation with you when they get up to speak about this. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: While we're on No. 9 - MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: - after 5399 we took out the comma, but then you say, except any variety stores. You can take the word "any" out. MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MR. HOOD: We dont have any changes to 11, 12, 13,or14. The next change is for 15, membership organizations. We took out 8641, so we only are left 8611,8621, and 8661, and 8661 has been limited to only for offices related to religious organizations, so we wont -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: As long as you take the corffna out. MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. I was on a comma spree, apparently. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I just - we've run into commas before, and they've caused trouble, so - but only 8661 is the one that then reflects the limitation to offices related to religious orgamzations? MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Thank You. Page 14 of 73 October 19, 2017 MR. HOOD: On to Page 11. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, since you -- No. 16, 7699 but only - just take the word "but" out' MR. HOOD: Gotcha. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I didn't mean buft out. Just take the word "but" out. Okay' MR. HOOD: OntoPagell. And excuse my notes on the side. No. 17, we took out SIC 5962, and we -- hold on two seconds. Get the clean copy out. Something looks odd. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN : You took out the span of all the uses between 5992 and 5999 and just - MR. HOOD: Correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - put in 5994. So without - and then - so between 5992 and 5994 - MR. HOOD: Correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - there's nothing now allowed except those two numbers' MR. HOOD: Exactly. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: OkaY. MR. HOOD: And then took out - because we took out the SIC for tobacco stores and stands, we removed the language that was previously in there in your packets that referred to tobacco stores and stands. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: OkaY. MR. HOOD: No. [ 8, we - on the previous version that you received that was dated October 12th, we had stricken motion picture theaters and videotape rental completely. We were asked to put it back in and just limited it to SIC ?841, and then add the language -- and we'll remove that comma - except any free-standing kiosk rental boxes. CHAIRMAN STRAN: What will - what's a videotape rental? I mean - MR. HOOD: Blockbuster. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- it's nice you want to add that as a use, but do you really think you're going to have videotapc rental? MR. HOOD: I just added it because they wanted it added. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: OkaY. MR. HOOD: So we can get rid of it. so let's just take that one and just remove it like it was originally removed? MR. KLATZKOW: Well, you want a Red Box out there? MR. HOOD: That's what they were trying to get rid of is a Red Box' CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's a CD. That's not a videotape' MR. KLATZKOW: Welt, I understand that, but if that's what they want, just say it' MR. HOOD: No, no, no. That's exactly v/hat they dont want; except for a free-standing kiosk and rental boxes was -- MR. KLATZKOW: All right. But that's the only one out there right now' MR. HOOD: Exactly. That is it. So we'll just remove 18 completely' CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: So you're taking out motion pictures and videotape rental? MR. HOOD: yes, sir. No changes to No. 19. The next change is in No. 20 for personal service. We added -. previously it was just - itjust said pickup stations, so we added drop-off and pickup stations. And there was an addition of 7251. And, actually, I thhk that was an addition because of a deletion. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is there a difference between the way you've said 7212, which says dry-cleaning and laundry drop-off and prckup stations only, but then at 7299 the parenthetical is kind of separating lg but it says only car title, tag service, diet. The word "only" you've moved to a different location. ls there a reason specifically for that? MR. HOOD: So that one, 7299, was the original language. I didn't touch that language. It was just - that's how it was written. That's how it was represented in the PLrD. So it was 7299, parenthetical, only car title and tag services. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, it doesnt mean we can't clean it up. MR. HOOD: Yeah. We can change it; yeah, absolutely. CHAIRMAN STRAN: We're cleaning everything else up. MR. HOOD: I just left it alone, but we can change that, definitely. Page l5 of 73 October 19, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm just - I think thc parenthetical just confuses it, because you're only referring to 7299. MR. HOOD: Okay. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: And I think the "only" - there it's correct, but maybe the "only" at the end ofthe definition for 7212 should go in the beginning. MR. HOOD: Okay. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I have a question - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: - back on No. 17. MR. HOOD: Yes, ma'am. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: The exceptions are meant to be inclusive with all the codes or just - because 5932 includes pawn shops, not 5999. MR. HOOD: Yeah. This was, again - COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: So is this meant to be all inclusive of all the codes? MR. HOOD: Yes, ma'am. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Because it says antiques only after the - MR. HOOD: I think this is another instance where we can clean up the original language. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well - but if you're going to clean it up, let's clean it up here today, because we're going to try to resolve issues today, and I dont want everybody walking away with a different idea of what the outcome's going to be, so... And Karen's got a good point. Under the 5932, you don't need the parenthetical, because it only applies to that number. But at the end of 5999, putting the parenthetical there applies to all the numbe$, I would think. Is that how the County Attomey's Office would take a look at it? MR. KLATZKOW: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. So I think that's fine there, but I think the ones under - after 5932 you can strike those two parentheticals. MR. HOOD: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I know this is getting into minutiae, but I don't know how else to fix it unless we fix it on the fly here today, so... COMMISSIONER EBERT: Thank you, Jeff. MR. HOOD: I understand. Okay. Where did I leave off? Oh, No. 21, there were no changes. No. 22 was the removal ofSlC code 9541, and because we were removing 9541, it was no longer 9411 through 9511, so we had to add in 9431 within that range. That was the next one after - or before; I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Is there to be a comma after 94.11? MR. HOOD: Yes. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Yeah, okay. I see; okay. MR. HOOD: No changes to 23, 24,25,26 or 27 . CHAIRMAN STRAIN: ln 25, the parenthetical, youVe got a bunch of them in here. The two in the middle, before the word "only" and after the word "associations," because itjust pertains to 8322, so you don't need them there, I don't think. MR. HOOD: Okay. We'll remove those. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: And, yeah, that's about it. Okay. MR. HOOD: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 27? MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 27 was the reason that the storagc facility was there. Now, I still think it's a befter use than the 300-space parking lol to serve as 100,000 square feet ofoffice, but I know the residents have had some concem over it. 27 opens the door for uses that have not been so intricately discussed here today and, unforhmately, over the years the use ofcomparable/compatibte has gotten broader than what it started out to be. So out of Page 16 of73 October 19. 2017 an abundance ofcaution, maybe 27 is something we need to consider not having there, because as close as this neighborhood is monitoring things, I would hate to see another problem arise that they didn't expect because of that paragraph that doesn't really define things. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I agree. Also, Mr. Chairman, l'm - I continue to be concemed about use of the word "comparable" without a consistency or compatibility reference, because in universe any two things can be compared with one another. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It's supposed to read generally comparable and compatible. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And the standards for that use to have three separate standards at the - that had to be met, they've gotten a little bit more flexible, and they've expanded. So nght now under comparable/compatible, a lot's going through that probably should be considered under a PUDA, and for that reason I agree with you. And I think 27 would be best not left in. I think it's going to potentially cause some problems dom the road if it's exercised. George, did you - you're standing there for a reason. Did you have a comment? MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: Yes. May I approach the Board, please? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You need to bring the mike close to you. MR. \'IJKOBRATOVICH: May I approach the Board? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Sure. MR. \'L'KOBRATOVICH: I think we worked diligently to make this compatible We do not know what's coming in the future. Just as well as we elimrnated a lot of the uses that were in this original PUD, to restrict us to what we don't even know yet is coming for uses is very difficult to make an applicant to go through a GMPA revision again. This took a year. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It would be a PUDA. MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: PUDA. It took a year. So I would ask consideration of language that is compatibleicomparable. You know, in the spirit of what we're trying to do here, to go through a GMPA, a year and a half, I thinl! is a burden that is just a bit excessive. MR. KIATZKOW: Mr. Chair, I understand he issue here. But jrst for clarificatiorl for the record, who makes the determination? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, the determrnation is initially made by staff, and then it comes to my oIfice for a review. I'm telling you at my office for review, I have been concerned about it because as it's coming through as a comparable/compatible, it's not a zoning action, although it is changing the uses on a property. They're considered close enough to the uses that are there that it's okay, but there's no idvirtiiement other than a notice in the paper. So the people in the neighborhood immediately sunounding it don't know the change is coming. Looking back at how these happen and the flexibility that has been requested of staffwhen this process started siveral years ago, it's become much more flexible than I think should be allowed, and that's my concem with No. 27. Now, if you have some criteria that you would want to put so that if something comes in and it fits some strict cnte;a, that might be a differcnt way to approach it. But right now it's up to the criteria that staffs historically used. And I can tell you, that has changed dramatically over time, and I'm not sure it's right. MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: I've been here dramatically over a period of time, too, and watched the change. And I think you're - Chairman - Mr. Chairman, I think youte descnbing a staffissue. That's what we,re talking about. And I'm open to any other language that the Board may suggest to make this more compatible. So I,m open to that, and I think I'm open to working with the community, too. But to restrict someone for things that we don't even know are coming yet, I'm not sure' COMMISSIONER FRYER: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: YES. COMMISSIONER FRyER: Yesterday I did a word search in the applicable GMP sections and found that numerous times this "comparability" tanguage appears, but it's much tighter, and it has more to do with similarit-v, compatibility, consistency. And I would suggest that if we're going to use this language at all, we just pick up the tighter language in the GMP and put it in 27' Page 17 of 73 October t9, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Wel[, [et's wait, and that might be - that's what I kind of suggested, give us some criteria that could be used that the community could then comment on and we loow weVe got some protection, because right now I'm not sure we've got enough. MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: My esteemed counsel gave me some advice here, and if we use the same advertising that would be involved, maybe that would help in the situation. I think that's something that we should - CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: You mean public notice - MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - through NIMs and all the rest of it? MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, that would certainly help. I mean, any change you make, if it goes tkough the right notification to the parties involved, helps us understand the thoughts. MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I just don't want a su4rrise, because right now it's - comparableVcompatibles are not openly - they're advertised but they're not noticed in a -- MR. \'IJKOBRATOVICH: I understand. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- good way, so... MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: And I want to advertise, too, so I think - I think that is the point, you know, that I would request that kind of language. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ray? MR. BELLOWS: For the record, Ray Bellows. I like that idea, and I would like to get the Planning Commission's direction to pursue an LDC amendment to make that universal for all PUDs; that is hold a neighborhood information meeting. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'll add that little note to the agenda. We'll bring it up under new business. MR. BELLOWS: Very good. MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: Thank you for your consideration. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I still - what are we doing with 27, because I still have - CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, right now I think what we've put on the table is there's a possibiliry of it being left if we can provide either proper notice and./or criteria, proper notice being the key, because proper notice to match the PUDA notifications would then let the neighborhood lnow exactly what you're attempting to change on the site, and I think that's a much more open process. That helps a lot, but I think we need to hear fiom the public before we resolve it - COMMISSIONER FRYER: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - and see what they're thinking. MR. HOOD: Okay. I've made that note. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MR. HOOD: Okay. Let's move on to -- there are no changes on Page 12, so we're moving on to Page 13. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I have some questions. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead. MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER FRYER: First of all, I see, looking back at the subsection under permitted uscs, 8A talks about televisions, outdoor amplified sound devices, et cetera, but that, ofcourse, is limited to the subject - 6, rather, new 6,{, that's limited to eating places and drinking places. So shouldn't we have a prohibited use about television and amplified and video that would apply in the case ofan event that wasn't serving food or liquor or any ktnd ofdrink? MR. HOOD: Can you give me an example ofa type ofuse that that would be? I'm just curious. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Well, some kind of a festival or fair or public event that is not serving food or drink. MR. HOOD: So those would - as I understand, like, if we were to have a festival or, like, a street Page lE of73 October 19, 2017 fair or, you know, restaurant week or something like that, would be under a temporary use permit or special events p€rmit, and that would have to be reviewed, if l'm correct. lt wouldn't be a use that would be pnncipally allowed in this PUD to happen every day of the year. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Well, I'm not sure that I have successfully described the entire universe ofsituations where this could apply, but I think the neighbors would prefer -- I shouldn't speak for them, but I think they might prefer seeing a prohibition against loud activities whether they're associated with food and drink or not. MR. HOOD: Sure. I think that's something we can definitely talk about right now. I was just trying to find a place to specifically put it in, and it may just be in the prohibition area. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 3.45. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I'd take 6A and repeat it as a prohibited use. 6A nails it. The only problem with 6A is ifs limited to food and drink serving places. MR. HOOD: Okay. So we'll take - MS. ASIITON-CICKO: We're just remove outdoor seating areas. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Yeah. MS. ASIITON-CICKO: Move that section and remove the phrase at the end. MR. HOOD: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Joe, did you have something? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I was jusl going to bring up what was already raised, that anything like that would require a temporary use permit, which would then have to be reviewed by staffto ensure that it complies with the standards. But I want to go back. Where did - Heidi, where did you say, now, you're going to make the change to what? MS. ASIITON-CICKO: So we would just add under 3.4, No. 5, under prohibited uses, no televisions, outdoor amplified sound devices, or outdoor live entertainment shall be permitted. COMMISSIONER FRYER: That's what I would see. COMMISSIONER SCHMIfi: Okay. MR. HOOD: We can definitely add that. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I also had another point under prohibited uses. And my recollection is it's vague on this, but it has to do with the question of stores that might be fronting on the north boundary of the property. And that came up, and I'm not sure if it came up here or in fiont ofthe Board of County Commissioners, but it was -- maybe a resident raised it. Is there to be a prohibition against stores that fiont toward the residential boundary of this property? MR. HOOD: Yes, we can add that, and it v/asn't - it was kind of implied that we wouldn't have a front door facing Black Bear Ridge because the address would be off of Vanderbilt Way. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I think it would be good - MR. HOOD: But we could add that prohibition there. COMMISSIONER FRYER: - to have something in there, if you wouldnt mind doing so. MR. HOOD: Sure. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Joe, did you have something you wanted to - COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Well, I just want to make sure with that language that states that that would certainly deny any oppori:nity for a temporary use permit with that language. MR. HOOD: Yes. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: If they were going to have some kind of event with amplified sound or music; you know, a fair or a - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, we all - and I'11 throw this on the table for input fiom the public. We all could : under that prohibition under 3.4, except - we could use the words, except for temporary use - authorized permitted temporary uses. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I'd be fine with that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Then we'll hear the public on that one, but that means they can come in for an event as the code allows - Page l9 of73 October 19, 2017 COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: They wanted a community book fair or they wanted whatever they may have, that it would be a temporary use permit, and it may - it does give the provlsion that that tlpe, if it's approved, would be allowable. I mean -- COMMISSIONER FRYER: Yeah. I'm fine with that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. We'll just - we'll keep it as discussion for when the public comes up. MR. HOOD: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Karen? COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Can we also add -- and I know you had a list last time. I'm assuming it was from the neighborhood - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: - that you were reading offof, and it also included no adult-oriented sales or rentals. So could we add that to the prohibited uses then? MR. HOOD: It was - I believe it was -- since we don't have the use permitted and since we're limiting the comparable/compatible in No. 2?, it would fall under that prohibition, that defect or prohibition because it's not an allowed use in the PUD, but then we would also have to come through - if we were to go look at something comparable and compatible, if we get thrs language in about notification like we do for PUDAs and PUDRs and so forth and so on, that - these would not be allowed. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: That could be under apparel. MR. HOOD: I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: That could be under apparel or rental of any kind of recording. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: The motion pictures thealer and videotape rental, those groups, so the SIC code, they've agreed to remove. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Yeah, but general merchandise has the same thing undemeath. MR. HOOD: Like an adult book store or something that -- COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Yeah. There's a lot of other places that could be included in the - CHAIRMAN STRAN: Let's ask the members of - when the members of the public come up - they had suggested that. Let's see where they - how they want to - what they're thinking. Anything else while we're on this page? Fred - or Ncd? COMMISSIONER FRYER: Subject to what the public brings out on that, following up on Karen's point, which I agree wrth, the prohibited uses, it seems to me - if we get good comparable/compatible Ianguage for 27 under perm.itted uses, it seems to me that there should be a prohibited use that says uses that are not permitted under permitted uses are prohibited so as to cover the entire universe ofpossibilities. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's kind of how the code's written. I think any'thing not specifically allowed is prohibited. It says that in the preamble to the code. MR. BELLOWS: That's correct. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Which almost begs the question of why we need to list prohibited uses. MR. HOOD: Except for the ones that are prohibited by the Grotth Management Plan. MR. BELLOWS: For the record, the prohibited uses also helps if thcre's a later request for a specific amendment to add a use, we could say it was once prohibited, or if somebody applied for a comparable use we could say, no, it's listed as a prohibited use. COMMISSIONER FRYER: So is that - this is thc way that the Board has always done it? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: YeP. COMMISSIONER FRYER: OkaY. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anything else while we're - Fred, I have a question on the top of Page 12. You have drinking places, No. 2, listed as an accessory commercial use, but that's the same use that's listed on No. 6 under principal uses. So am I - why do we have it both as a principal and as accessory? I lcrow it was in the original one, but since we're making all these changes and corrections, I'm jusi curious what was the intent. MR. HOOD: We can - hold on. Let me - yeah, I don't see a problem with striking that since it's already in No. 6. That was just the origrnal language. We can pull it. Page 20 of73 October 19, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 6 actually says it a lot better. MR. HOOD: Yeah. We can srike No. 2 on the accessory uses. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Now we're back to wherever you left off. MR. HOOD: Page 13. The - we cleaned up the language fiom the last hearing for No. 3, so it just states fast-food restaurants with drive-tkough lanes, simple, and then the addition ofNo. 4, any free-standing donation boxes or kiosk. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MR. HOOD: Or:r next and last change is on Page 22, and this one was commented on from the County Attomey, and it didn't get in before we sent you your packets. The removal of the dash between Black Bear Ridge and Wolf Creek PUD and then the addition ofthe words "ofthe" between Black Bear Ridge and Wolf Creek PUD. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: While we're on that page, could I ask a question. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: D, maximum trip generation allowed by proposed uses not to exceed 547 p.m. peak hour. MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: How are you going to measure that, and how are you going to enforce that? MR. HOOD: So with every one ofour developments that come in, theyte - well, any of ow SDPs that come in, they're going to have to have a TIS presented with it. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: So it's a theoretical? MR. HOOD: It is a civil engineering theoretical, I'm sure, yes. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Okay. That's all. Thanks. COMMISSIONER FRYER: How is it enforced, though? I wondered the same thing. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: The SDP is - MR. HOOD: Do you want me to speak to it? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead. MR. HOOD: Okay. Your - when you apply for an SDP permit for your construction without going vertical, it gets reviewed from the Transportation Planning Department, and they review how many trips are within that PUD based on the SDPS that have alrcady been appmved or are within review. So if you - for instance, Lots 1 through 2 right now has an SDP on it; it has a specific amount of trips attributed to it. So when Lot 3 and 5 and 6 and/or 4 are developed - No. 4 is already developed - they have to have that TIS for their specific development. So there's a tally that's being kept by county staff CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions? (No response.) CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: IVe got three remaining questions, Fred. MR. HOOD: Sure. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Page 14. That's your Development Standards Table. MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I guess the best place to look at this is an example, is where it says distance between principal structures. MR. HOOD: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You see you have all the numbers,12,13.5,15, 17, and you have that little apostrcphe, the little nick there. That represents feet. MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, go up fi[ther on top of that column. Everywhere else you spell out the word "feet." MR. HOOD: It says feet. We'll add "feet." CHAIRMAN STRAN: And you do that on both columns back and forth in different locations. Maybe we could just use the word "feet" everywhere? MR. HOOD: Pick one and just use "feet" everywhere. Page 21 of 73 October 19, 2017 COMMISSIONER FRYER: Pick one and go with it. MR. HOOD: Yes. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I recommend we stay with the word "feet" and not the dash indication. That's very clear. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Agreed. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: So we need to change that. Now, if we tum to Page 21, Deviation 2, I was reading your deviation, and I thought, well, this is odd. We've never, that I can recall, had someone have to install a 4-foolhigh wall along a 6-foot arterial road. And I couldn't figure out why you wanted the deviation. So I pulled the code and looked at it again, and it does say local streets. So I got Mr. Sawyer to clariry, I said, am I missing something, or is a 20O-foofwide right-of-way a local street or not? And he said, no, it's not a local street; it's an arterial road. So you don't need Deviation No. 2. MR. HOOD: We don't need Deviation No. 2. I spoke with Mr. Sawyer as well about that, and it was an interpretation that was interpreted wrong. When it said local street or roadway, instead ofjust looking at it to say local sheet/roadway, I looked at it and saw local sheet or roadway. So that was my mistake. We can remove Deviation No. 2. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: This is on Page 16. MR. HOOD: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. So Deviation 2 goes away. The previous deviation, the second to the last sentence, and it reads: The signage shall be perpetually maintained by the homeowners associations of tle developments named on the sign. And my question for that one was, how can this PUD document for Carolina Village make commitments on behalf of those other HOAs that they'd have to be bound to? Because they don't sign this PUD. MR. HOOD: That language was - and I believe - that was a coordination with the County Attomey's OfIice for that language. So we, as requested, ptaced that language in the PUD. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. And then I did - I had to - unforh:nately, Heidi just got back today, so she hasn't had an opportunity to talk to me about this. I would have brought it up so she'd been prepared. So, Heidi, I gucss, then, the question goes to you: Is this something that's enforceable, or how do we make that work? MS. ASFION-CICKO: Well, it's going to be addressed through a right-of-way permit. There was a sign there that staff showed me that had Black Bear fudge on it. I was corrected at the last meeting that that sign is down. I don't know if there's a sign there or not. Maybe someone from staffcan let us know. That's why we addressed it, because there was a sign that was a.lready there. And we can take the language out if you would like and address it through a right-of-way permit. But my understanding was at the time there was an existing sign. It did not have a right-of-way permit because when it was installed it was private, and then it became public. So this part ofroad I understand is public now. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Well, what I would rather do is put a sentence in there that says, this road - this sign will be required to go through the right-of-way permit process, and then we can cover it. But to bind another outfit or another HOA through this document doesn't seem like we can do that. MS. ASIION-CICKO: That's correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. So why don't we modifu that, that this, then, will be changed, that the signage will be perpeually - will be permitted through - MR. KLATZKOW: Well, this is enforceable. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Pardon me? MR. KLATZKOW: This is an ordinance. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: Pardon me? MR. KIATZKOW: This is an ordinance. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. MR. KLATZKOW: It is enforceable. The question is whether you thinJ< it's fair that it's enforceable. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No. The question is, we're saying that anybody that uses that sign that is not part ofthis PUD, they have to be - they have to agree to perpetually maintain the sign. Pagc 22 of 73 October 19, 2017 MR. KLATZKOW: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: How can we bind them to that when they're not part of this PUD? MR. KI-ATZKOW: Because this is an ordinance. Now, you may not think this is fair that there's not enough notice given, but - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh, I'm not - I wasn't even getting to the fair. I'm trying to get to practicality. MR. KLATZKOW: Practicality, we can enforce this. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: So if Black Bear puts their name on that sign, we can go to Black Bear Ridge and make them pay the maintenance ofthat sign? MR. KLATZKOW: Wel[, the sip is for their benefit. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Then that brings up another question. How do they get an off-premise sign if their PUD didn't allow for an off-premise sign? MR. KIATZKOW: Well, it's in here. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But it doesnt say which group can use that sign. Generally an off-premise sign means they have to come in for a sign variance or a sign exception. MS. ASIION-CICKO: Well, they got it through here. I mean, the existing language allows for signage, and that's why we kied to correct it, so... MR. BELLOWS: Mr. Chairman, if I may. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. MR. BELLOWS: Historically, staffhas required the zoning district of the off-prernise development to amend their PUD to allow an off-premise sign and then the PUD location where the sip is to be placed to make provisions for it as well as, so there's normally two companion amendments. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. So this would only be allowed if they've already got the language in their PUD to allow it? MR. BELLOWS: Correct. CHAIRMAN STRAN: And if they haven't, they've got to come in and get it done, and we can make the commitment at that time? MR. BELLOWS: That's correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Then that work. That's what I was trying to get to. MR. KLATZKOW: No. MS. ASHTON-CICKO: There is something in their PUD, because we had checked it at that time. So the language fit with what was prior. MR. BELLOWS: Yeah. If it's in there already, then wete good. MR. KLATZKOW: And if it's not in there already, you're good. This is an ordrnance. Chalrman, I understand what you're saying, but this is still an ordinance. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I'm just following up on -- I mean, I've been doing this for a while, and we've brought this up as a problem in the past. I just thought it was odd it wasnt a problem now. But if you guys are okay with it, I'm fine with it, too. I just wanted clarification. MR. KLATZKOW: I'm not safng it's not a problem. I'm not entirely sure this is the appropriate way of doing it. I'm just telling you it's enforceable. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. That's the last of my questions. Anybody else have any? Ned? COMMISSIONER FRYER: I actually had the same question, or a similar one. On Deviation No. 1, the last sentence that allows the - or requires that the sign be relocated in the case of capacity or safety issues. Those nvo qualifien, does that make it broad enough? For instance, what about a more general term like "public welfare," "public good," or - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Maybe "safety" because it's covered by that? COMMISSIONER FRYER: Safety -- well, maybe, but what about - well, aesthetic. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: It's in the eyes of the beholder. COMMISSIONER EBERT: You're right. COMMISSIONER FRYER: You know it when you see it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. They could - I mean, what one development might think is a nice Page 23 of 73 October 19, 2017 sign, another - somebody driving by may not. I'm not sure we even want to open that can of worms. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Well, I just wanted to raise it. It seemed to me like that was kind of narrow, but ifno one else is uncomfortable with it, that's okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: County Attomey says it's enforceable, so I think we're good. MR. KIATZKOW: What I'm sayrng is this: What it's salng is if you're going to have yow name on that sign, you're going to help maintain that sign. Ifthe HOA doesnt want to pay to maintain that sign, their name doesn't have to be on that sign. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. They wont get thcir name on the sign unless they've got an off-premise sign - MR. KLATZKOW: Exactly. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - provision, so I guess that covers it all. Okay. That's - anybody else have any questions ofthe applicant at this time? MR. REISCHL: I just want to clarifr, is your - do you mean to retain that now? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, we might as well leave it in. MR. REISCHL: Leave it in? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. Everything s been clarified, yeah. MR. REISCHL: Okay. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I have one more. I'm sorr),. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, sir. Go ahead, Ned. COMMISSIONER FRYER: 5.4, the successor entity -- and I realize this is a practice of longstanding in the county, but it suprises me that there are no criteria that are applied to a successor managing entity to ensure that it's morc than just a shell, but I guess that this is steeped in precedent and custom and practice. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Actually, this language has been refined, and it just came about not too long ago with this standardization, and that was something Heidi wrote up. So she'd probably be the best person to respond to it. MS. ASTITON-CICKO: Yeah. We had addressed concems of the administrator several years ago who requested that this be placed in all PUDs because we were having a problem when the property changes hands and having someone responsible to make sure that all the commitments in the PUD are met. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Understood, but there are no requirements that the successor have any financial heft or presence. It could be a shell that was organized simply to receive these responsibilities and thereby let the original managing entity otTthe hook. MR. KIATZKOW: But that would imply we have the ability to block the transaction. So if there's a sale from one developer to the other, ifwete going to get involved in the PUD that you must be financially sound, I mean, it's -- COMMISSIONER FRYER: No, I understand. MR. KLATZKOW: It's a private transaction. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I get that. Just I think it's worth pointing out, though, so that we understand that when we permit this to happen, we're allowing the managing e[tity to basically get out fiom under the requirements - theyre not only assigned the rights, but they disconnect themselves fiom the tiabilities as well in favor ofa completely unknown entity which, I understand ifthat's the practice - and I'm not saying it shouldn't be, but I just think we all ought to recognize that that's what could happen. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. With that, anything else of the applicant at this time? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We'll go to a staffreport before we go to break. Fred? MR. REISCHL: Fred Reischl, Planning and Zoning. I went through the changes, same as you, and have no objection to anything that was mentioned. We continue to recommend approval. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Get a little closer to the mike, Fred. Thank you. Continue to recommend approval, right? MR. REISCHL: Yes. Page 24 of 73 October 19, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Any questions of stafl COMMISSIONER FRYER: Sorry, I had one more; I apologize. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Under5.l5, lighting, the last -- or the second to last sentence says, these shielded structures shall be placed no higher than l0 feet; 10 feet from what? You mean ground level? 5.15. MR. HOOD: I'm getting there so Ican put it on the visualizer for you. Okay.5.15. Yes, fiom the finished floor elevation of the building, so - COMMISSIONER FRYER: Could we say that? MR. HOOD: Yeah, we can put finished floor in there. That's fine. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Thank you. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anlhing else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAN: If not - well, it's a good time for a break before we start public participation. We'll come back at 10:30 and - or 10:35 and resume. Thank you. (A briefrecess was had.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. ladies and gentlemen, if you'd please take your seats, we'll resumc the meeting. And we left offwith a presentation finished by staff, and we'll now tum to public speakers. As each member ofthe public's called, please come up to either one ofthe microphones. How many speakers do we have registered? MR. REISCHL: Four registered. CFIAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Would you call the first speaker. MR. REISCHL: Sure. They are numbered. The first - there's two number ones. Terrie Abrams and Steve Abrams. I'm not sure which person truly wants to be 1. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, we'll start with Terrie Abrdms, if she'd like to come up, and we'll go to the next one fiom there. MS. ABRAMS: He assigned his time to me, my husband. That's why. There's only two speakers. MR. REISCHL: Giving minutes to Terrie Abrams. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Terrie, when you speak, you have to use the microphone, even though it's stufflike that. Thank you. MS. ABRAMS: Okay. I'm Terrie Abrams. There was a lot of discussion this moming. I just want to clari! something in regards to the concem about is the community behind the changes. Way back when, when this started, we had petitions and letters that you all have received fiom way back wherL and that listed all ofthose prohibited usages, and so that was what the community was really concemed about. So that was one thing I wanted to clarifu. The second thing, we just talked about adult usages. So we don't know how to get *rat wording in there, but we are against any sort ofadult booktores, adult video stores, adult paraphernalia stores, adult apparel stores. So we look to you to help us get the correct verbiage in ther€ so that it's locked and loaded. So now I'll get into r+trat I originally had planned to say. I'm a resident of Black Bear Ridge, and I'm concemed about the business usages that will be allowed in Vanderbilt Commons. Vanderbilt Conunons'lot line and Black Bear Ridge lot lines - slow? COMMISSIONEREBERT: Slower. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. Terri has to t)?e - that Terri has to type as fast as you talk. MS. ABRAMS: Okay - because our lot lines buffer each other directly. In addition, Pristine Drive is the only separation between Vanderbilt Commons and the development to the west. They're not here, but we can see what will happen to them as well. It is cntical that the usages allowed are compatible with not only Black Bear fudge but the surrounding developments. We have reviewed each and every SIC code rmder discussion, met with the developer, and we've made some pretty significant compromises. The agreed usages give the developer a wide range ofbusinesses and, in fact, looking at the SIC Page 25 of 73 October 19, 2017 codes, we identified additional ones that we felt would be beneficial to the developer as well to us, and we thought it would be a good fit with the community. We want the developer to be successful but not at the detriment of our community or requiring a burden placed on the residents to be the watchdog for non-advertised changes. So we have had that discussion as well. We do ask that Line 28 be removed. Line 28, I'm not going to read it again, because I think we all know what it is, but leaving that line in provides opporhmity for noncompatible usages to be approved -- COMMISSIONER FRYER: You mean 27? MS. ABRAMS: I'm sorry. It got changed. Itwas28, and it got changed to27. Leaving rn that line provides opportunity for noncompatible usages to be approved without our knowledge. This will be an unfair burden placed on us, and we have already been the recipients ofa storage unit, which really is incompatible and, in our minds, have sort of lowered or dummied down the development of that strip. Just because this is standard language, it doesn't make it right, and it should stop here. I'm aware there's a cost to tle developer to request a change, but that's really the cost ofdoing business. The burden and cost should not be placed on the residents to prevent noncompatible businesses butted up to residential areas. We really do need to stop this. A couple other things in the application that we saw. It indrcates that the residential area can be as small as 500 square feet. We heard just two weeks ago on another project that that's really too small of a living space, so we'd like to see that increased to 700 square feet, which is compatible with other rentals in the zrrea. I have another, and we talked about this temporary permit for outside noise and variance. How often is thal allowed? CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: Ray, you might - do you remember how often we allow temporary events on a site? MR. BELLOWS: Fourteen days twice aya r. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: We'd have to check the code on that, but I thought it's twice a ycar. MR. BELLOWS: Ycah, it's 28 days total. MS. ABRAMS: Okay. So for, like, a sidewalk sale or something like that. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Yeah. MS. ABRAMS: Absolutely fine. We just didn't understand how fiequent it could happen. So we really appreciate your consideration. You guys have been listening to us, and that's wonderful, so thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And, Terrie, while you're up there, since you and, I know, Beverly are probably the point people - MS. ABRAMS: Yeah. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - I'd like to walk through some issues that we discussed to make sure youle comfortable - MS. ABRAMS: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - and if you have an objection we know it so we can weigh in on it. MS. ABMMS: Okay. CII{IRiVIAN STR,{IN: The changes to 6 regarding eating places and drinking places, we suggested expanding the amplified sound in that language to across the whole site. I'm sure you're fine with that. The hardware stores, I know that you all talked about hardware stores coming in. Does the 10,000 square feet have any - are you guys fine with that? MS. ABRAMS: We really didn't talk about the size of it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Which is why I'm bringing it up. MS. ABRAMS: Exactly. So we really hadnt - it seems rather large. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, actually, the hardware stores are much, much bigger than that. In fact, the Sunshine Ace Hardware that recently went up on the East Trail was 23,000 square feet. So you're looking at - MS. ABRAMS: We're fine. Pagc 26 of 73 October 19, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - half the size of that hardware store. MS. ABRAMS: We're fine. CHAIRMAN STRAN: I thought that was appmpriate, but I wanted to make sure you understood it. The issue about the motion - 7922,1read you the uses there. Was that not for - it wasn't for a motion theater. It was for, like, an arts production type place, right? MS. ABRAMS: Yeah. We were all for having a small neighborhood playhouse of some sort. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MS. ABRAMS: So that's really where we wanted to open that up. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. This issue about doors facing the residential, what is that about; do you know? I tried to understand it. I mean, right now, I drive by - I live down the road fiom this place, so I see they've got the fint stnp area going up close to Vanderbilt. There's going to be doors on the north side of that thing. So how can we say they cant have doors on the north side of the lots? MS. ABRAMS: I dont know where that came from. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Because I don't either. It doesnt make sense. MS. ABRAMS: Unless it's about the back 5 and 6 parcels which butt up against our property. Then I could understand no front doors facing that. I think that's what the intent was - COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Mark would it be better to say main entrances? Because I think that's what they're trying to preclude. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well - but main entrances cant be disallowed because that south side, they've got to face the road, the intemal road. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Right. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: So I'm thinking that somehow we've got to narrow this down - MS. ABRAMS: tught. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - and maybe public access doors facing residential only along the north lots - MS. ABRAMS: Five and six? CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: - that remain to be built? MS. ABRAMS: Correct. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: But youle stating you wanted to eliminate doors completely. I mean, they're going to have to allow for access to meet the fire code's ingresVegress requirements. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, public doors. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Public doors. Well, that's a - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Public doors aren't for your egress doors. They can be anywhere. You can have a sign up that says emergency access, and you can still go out it. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Okay. I just want to make sure - I mean, they're going to require doors somewhere in those buildings, and they may have to go out that north side to - MS. ABRAMS: Correct. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: - meet the ingresVegress requirements. MS. ABRAMS: Correct. But it's just the main public access. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Makes sense. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. And, Terrie, weVe had - weVe had language before about adult restrictions. I'm going to suggest we try to figwe that out, what the language was in one ofthe other PUDs. I remember, Karen, you've brought it up yourself I think even the PIID where the Wawa's going on Price Street. So maybe you could check and, before we go too far, frnish today, and see what that Price Sheet language was, because I know you had a list ofprohibited uses there, and that was listed as well. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: We've used that language, I believe, a lot of times. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Quite a few times, yeah. So whatever that typical language is, that's what I think everybody's on the same page for. MR. BELLOWS: We'll start looking. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And I'11 try to get to it sometime, too. I think that's all - that's all the questions I had for clarification. Page 27 of73 october 19. 2017 MS. ABRAMS: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Teme. Next speaker, Fred? COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Thank you, Terrie. MR. REISCHL: Rick Smith has ceded his time to Bev Smith. MS. SMITH: Hello, again. Beverly Smith, 7278 Acom Way. I wanted to go along with every4hing that Terrie has just mentioned. Again, thank you, for your time, and thank you for your concem for our concerns regarding this matter. We've worked very diligently with the developer, and we think weVe given him a very large range of establishments that he can put in this development. Other than what we've -- youVe gone through again, again, Ijust want to say that Items 27,Line27, is something that we are very concemed with, and that it doesn't give us an opportunity to address any fuhrre changes in this PUD and, along with what Mr. Strain said, I think that is a major concem at this point. I think we're down to about - that is the only concem at this point that we have and the square usage on the dwellings. But as far as the usage there, I think that - that's our only point, and we're really concemed about that, and we appreciate your remarks, Mr. Strain. And we hope that maybe this is the time that something like that should be changed and should be approached. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And along that train of thought, if 27 were to be modihed that those would be : could be requested subject to the same advertising process used for the PUDA, which is what you're cxperiencing today, would that cure your concem? Because they could do that anyway. I mean, ifthey want to do a PUDA, they could come in and do a PUDA - MS. SMITH: Right. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: -- and the process is the same as far as public advertising goes. You guys would be notified, you'd have a NIM, you do all that. I think that would cover your involvement, and if you didn't like it, you could - MS. SMITH: We just want an opportunity to readdress it if it happens, and that's what this is prohibiting us from. If that were to be the language, wc'd be happy with that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I think that would get you where you want to go. You'd be notified and - MS. SMITH: Right. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - you could do the same thing you're doing here today. MS. SMITH: Right. CHAIRMANSTRAIN: So... MS. SMITH: The other item that was brought up is on Table I ofthe development standards about the minimum floor area for a dwelling for the residential, and it is listed here as 500 square feet, and we have discussed it with the developer. We would like to see that changed to 700. I think that 500, as has been discussed with other areas and other developments, is a little - is a little small, and we would request that that be amended to 700. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. We'll - I will bring that up to the developer during rebuttal, and thank you. MS. SMITH: And I think -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And just - I did check the Price Street PUD, and it says the following: Prohibited uses: Adult entertainment and sexually orientated businesses. So that's the language we would add, and that would - as long as - everybody's nodding their head, so we'lljust get acknowledgnents as we go forward. MS. SMITH: Right. We can just add that language, and that would be acceptable. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anything else? MS. SMITH: So many lists here. No, I think that was the only - everything else has been covered. Just for a note so you krow, the Black Bear fudge name is not on the sign, on the public sign right now. The only thing there is Raffia Preserve and Falls of Portofino, just for the record. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Thark you very much. MS. SMITH: Okay. Thank you again. Page 2t of73 October 19. 2017 COMMISSIONER FRYER: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I have a question that this witness might want to weigh in on. When we devise language to change 27 and we insert a provision to the effect that there would have to be notice and a hearing, if we don't change the comparable language, leave that as the only standard, am I correct that the -- that whether it's the Hearing Examiner or this board, when they hear it, the comparability is the or y standard that they can refer to, or what about consistency and compatibility? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well - and I'll let Ray - Ray, generally it's comparable/compatible. There's - one of the terms is missing from this line. But, Ray? MR. BELLOWS: For the record, Ray Bellows. The various PUDs have various forms of this language. The LDC is what prevails in how we treat these PUDs with similar language, and it's all of those forms ofcomparable/compatible. And we can firther address more stringent guidelines in regards to that process in regard to also including requirement for neighborhood information meetings, also maybe put a requirement for public notice sign like we do for a PtlD amendment. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Yeah. All that is good, and I think the pubtic notice and hearing is an important step forward, but byjust having this comparable language by itself, that's saying nothing. MR. BELLOWS: I agee, and various PIIDs have various forms of this language. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Yeah. But we're here now talking about this one. MR. BELLOWS: Yeah. Thafs why I think - COMMISSIONER FRYER: It seems to me - MR. BELLOWS: - to apply everything universally, the LDC should be clear in what is meant by that. COMMISSIONER FRYER: It seems to me that what we're going after here is really a two-pronged standard consistent with permitted uses and compatible with the character ofthe neighborhood, not comparable. MR. BELLOWS: Yeah. And I wouldnt mind having clariSing language as well put in this PUD. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But I think before the day is over, we ought to at least zero in and get as much of it more accurately stated to meet some ofthe concems you've heard. MR. BELLOWS: I agree. MS. ASHTON-CICKO: Mr. Chair, I do have proposed language, if you'd like me to add a sentence regarding notice. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: SuTE. MS. ASHTON-CICKO: It could be something like, prior to the addition of any uses, public notice shall include neighborhood rnformation meeting mailings and signage in the same manner as that for a substantial amendment to ttre PUD. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's part ofit. I thinkwhat - COMMISSIONER FRYER: Part of it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - Ned's focusing on, the criteria by which the comparable/compatible analysis has to be determined. MS. ASH|ON{ICKO: Yeah. I'm just giving you the notice - COMMISSIONER FRYER: That sounds fine. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, the notice requirement seems fine. Now we need to make sure we have the right phraseology so the criteria that you use can be comprehensive enough to address all the issues, because the staff has changed the way they look at comparable/compatible analysis over the last few years, and I think we need to go back and be a little more defined on the way we do it. COMMISSIONER FRYER: That's exactly. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So at some point we've got to zero in on that language and resolve that to the best we can today with direction for the applicant, so... Okay. Anything else, Beverly? MS. SMITH: No, I'm good. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody else? Page 29 of73 October 19, 2017 (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Thank you. MS. SMITH: Thanl you. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Next speaker, Fred. MR. REISCHL: No more registered speakers. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So the other doubled up - they're all doubled up, okay. MR. REISCHL: Correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody Aom the public who has not spoken that would like to speak? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. With that, that will be the end of the public speakers, and I can offer some rebuttal time to the applicant, but we certaidy have some clarificatiors we need to first discuss. I made a few notes. Do you have any objection to the change in size to the minimum square footage for residential unit? MR. HOOD: No, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Do you have any objection to the adult entertainment language that I read from the Price Street PUD? MR. HOOD: No, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. The comparableicompatible, or however you want to word Line 27, do you have any objection to the notification language that Heidi read into the record? MR. HOOD: No, sir. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Now, as far as the language goes to set the standards by which we have to review it, Ned has weighed in on quite a few opportunities. Have you thought about it yourselfl Have you got any ideas on how you'd like to see it formatted, and we can then work offyour suggestions? MR. HOOD: Yeah. I like the way - the latrguage that Heidi came up with for the public notification. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. MR. HOOD: I was looking at changing or adding to the language that says any other use which is comparable and compatible in nature with the foregoing list of permitted principal uses, and then after that, I think it was those -- that decision will be required subject to the same notification processes ofthe PUDA application as Heidi read in. I think the only addition that we wanted to have there was that it would come back to this body to be reviewed, the additional use would come back to this body to be reviewed. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I mean, instead of my office? Thafs fine. I have no problem with that. It will probably come here anyway, so... MR. REISCHL: I think he means because it says in there Board of Zoning Appeals. MR.HOOD: SoBCC? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh. Comparable/compatible right now is only assigned to two bodies, mine and the BCC. So we'd have to -- how can we -- COMMISSIONER EBERT: Just put in Planning Commission. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. Can we just assign it to the Planning Commission through the PUD process? MS. ASTilON-CICKO: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Then that's fine. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Welt - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Pardon me? COMMISSIONER FRYER: My preference would be otherwise. I mean, weVe got a Heanng Examiner O{fice in place. I would prefer to see, perhaps, a little tighter language but not necessarily have all ofthese have to ascend to the Planrung Commission. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Ageed. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Maybe we just dont assign it, and we just leave it like it is in the code, because my offrce does move it here based on concems fiom the neighborhood to whatever heightened limit Page 30 of73 October 19, 2017 they may have. So if you propose something and the neighborhood's visibly upset, my objective would be to find out their concems and then probably meet with the commissioner from the district and decide which way it should go. MR. HOOD: That works for us. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. We'll just leave it like it is, then. Thank you. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I go back the4 hoping that most of these could be reposed at the Hearing Examiner level, that the language that we give the Hearing Examiner as criteria for him to evaluate -- am I repeating myself? COMMISSIONER EBERT: No, no. You're complicating things to me. No, I think he's right, though. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: The wbole problem has been - and, Ned, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I wanted to clariff for Diane. The problem is with these comparable/compatibles, Diane, they have gotten so flexible and the criteria's gotten so loose - COMMISSIONER EBERT: Loose. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - that he's 100 percent right. This needs to be fixed. And this is the first example coming tbrough. We could probably have an LDC amendment through before they'd have anything through rmder comparable/compatible analysis anyway. So, Ned, that's where we would probably want to adjust the criteria rather than trying to fix it today on the fly in the PUD - COMMISSIONER FRYER: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - but rely on the changes to the LDC that we would recommend under new business, 118, today. MR. BELLOWS: Conect. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. And I think that would be the best way. So we leave it in - we make the changes we talked about, but the criteria will be subject to the LDC as it's amended, and we'll be amending it hopefully as soon as staffcould focus on this - MR. BELLOWS: Yes. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: - and we'll talk about it today at I I B. MR. BELLOWS: We'll be meeting with Jeremy and make sure that that's - are their expedited LDC amendment cycle. MR.HOOD: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. That will work. And then last thing, I think werything else we've clarified, we've got -- we've addressed the issues I think the community just brought up to finish this off. I do, at the request ofthe County Attomey's Office, need George to acknowledge that he is representative as the successor trustee ofthe Vanderbilt Commons and [-and Trust, that you are actually their representative here today. ls thal - MS. ASHTON{ICKO: Well, actually, I'd like him to agree to all the changes to the PUD, if he's in agreement, and any stipulations that then you're adding, because he's not an applicant. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Do you want to wait, then, till after the motion? MS. ASHTON-CICKO: That will be fine. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, George. We'll wait till after the motion, and we'll ask you to acknowledge that you've agreed to everything that we've - MR. \'IJKOBRATOVICH: Yes, sir. One last comment, if I may. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: Sure. MR. WKOBRATOVICH: In an era when there doesn't seem to be civility anymore, when we don't talk to each other, I want to thank the Black Bear fudge people, Terrie and Beverly, and this board for talking this tkough arrd making thrs a very civil and a very agreeable process. Thank you very much. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Well said. Page 31 of 73 October 19, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. Okay. Fre( did you have any rebuttal that you wanted to make other than what we've just talked about? MR. HOOD: Just talking about the main public access doors. Is that still something that you want to see in the prohibited uses, or is that - CHAIRMAN STRAN: Just along [-ots 5 and 6. MR. HOOD: Just along Lots 5 and 6. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Public access doors - main public access doors on the north side of the buildings on Lots 5 ald 6. MR. HOOD: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Because Midgard's already done, and the other lots of water management, so that just leaves rwo lots. MR. HOOD: I'm just looking through here real quick to make sure I don't have anything else. We got rid of Deviation 2. That's it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Tha::k you. I appreciate your cooperation \Mith the neighborhood. It doesn't always work out that way, but you-all got together, and I think we're 99 percent there. There might bc a few things to tweak yet, which brings up the question of consent. There's a 1ot that needs to be fixed. What is your timetable necessities? Where are you - how are you in the system right now? MR. HOOD: We want to retain our BCC date for the l4th of next month, so whatever I have -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Of December? MR. HOOD: Of November. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: November, I'm sorry. Yeah. MR. HOOD: Next month. So whatever I have to do to get staff - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. We don't have another meeting between now and then, so... COMMISSIONER FRYER: We could, though. I mean, we could meet on the 2nd. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well - November l2th? MR. HOOD: I'm sorry. December l2this the date. CHAIRMAN STRAN: December l2th? MR. HOOD: December 12th is our hearing date. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh, well, then, there's no reason we can't get the consent acknowledged - MR. \IJKOBRATOVICH: That's not right. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I thought we were doing both. We had told them before we were doing this and consent. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's correct. We were going to try that, but there's an a\r{ul lot of changes - MR. HOOD: I do have it on my calendar Novsmber 14th. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - here. Do you feel that comfortable? If we can fit it in, it would be smarter to do it with an acknowledgrnent on consent. But if you guys don't think you need the consent - well, I'll tell you what, as an option, I don't mind reviewing this in its final draft to match all the notes that I've made today, and I've made pretty thorough notes on everythrng that we've done. If the rest of this board is comfortable with that, we don't need to have it come back on consent. But that would be up to this board. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: I totally agree. Tbere's no need to have to come back. I think we can handle this. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I agree. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I'm okay with that. Mr. Chairman, you're going to read your list so that we can hear it one more time? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, I could do that. Page 32 of 73 October 19, 2017 COMMISSIONER FRYER: Good. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I was just thinking, it's quite a list, but I could read it, COMMISSIONER FRYER: I mean, for instance, you've got the thing about the no north enties. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. I'11 read all that. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Good. No, that's a fine way to do it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Absolutely. When we stipulate, I'11 - you guys don't make a motion before I get to read it first this time, okay? COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Then that takes us tkough everything and you have -- are you finished now? MR. HOOD: I'm good. I'm just going to write down whatever you speak on, because I want to make sure I got it all. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. So with that, if there's no other questions of anybody, we will close the public hearing and open for discussion. And I'll go forward with the discussion items that we've talked about. It might take a few minutes, because they're over the pages that were handed out. They wont necessarily be in order, but I'lljust give them to you as I have them on the pages. The unit size for residential will be changed to 700 square feet minimum. The adult entertainment and sexually oriented business prohibition that was in the Price Street PUD language will be the same as inserted - used in the prohibition in this particular PUD; and that the Line 27, which involves the comparable/compatible analysis, will refer to comparable/compatible analysis and a process for public notification, should you utilize that line, as Heidi had read into the record previously. And as we get into the document, the various changes that we walked through we had some grammatical things; wete on the same page there. You are going to rdd 7922. You're going to be putting various commas and deleting parentheticals in different locations. The No. 6, eating places, that's a complete rewrite. 6A will not only be left in 64, it will be added to the prohibition uses but not referencing the outdoor seating area. It will just be no televisions, outdoor amplified sound devices, or live entertainment shall be permitted, period. MR. HOOD: Got it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: The hardware stores will be added, but you're going to use 10,000 square feet as a maximum square footage for any such use. There's some grammatical on the following page. Then we get into No. 27, which we already talked about, comparable/compatible. Under accessory commercial uses, C2 doesn't need to be there. It's the drinking places reference. Under the Development Standards Table, all the little tick marks for feet will be spelled out as "feet" to make it consistent. When we get to prohibited uses, there's been a new addition about free-standing donation boxes and kiosks. This is where we'll add 6A with the exception of the last few words. We'll also add the public doors facing the residential are prohibited along lots - north - along the north side oflots 6 and 7, and then the adult restriction language will go there. Under the deviations section, there's no need for Deviation 2, so that will come out. And there's small grammaticals on the rest of it. The 5.15, lighting, Ned had brought up a measurement for the l0 feet. It will come fiom the finished floor of the buildhg. And I think that's all of the substanhal ones that -- other than the grammatical ones that we had talked about. Anybody think anything's missing or needs to be - you're fine? COMMISSIONER FRYER: YouVe got it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: Your references, Marlq are to 5 and 6, not 6 and 7. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes. I'm sorry; 5 and 6, you're right. MR. HOOD: One last change on the hours. I believe it was for 5 and 6 under No. 64; it should be 6 a.m. through 4 p.m., not 6 a.m. and 4 p.m. MS. ASHTON-CICKO: And then if we could have Mr. Vukobratovich, come up. Did I say it Page 33 of 73 October 19,2017 right - MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: You did. MS. ASHTON-CICKO: -- as to the Vanderbilt Commons Land Trust. If you could let us know if you accept the PUD changes and stipulations. MR. VUKOBRATOVICH: My name is George Vukobratovich for the record. I live at 4660 5th Avenue Northwest. Yes, I accept the changes as we discussed today and is on the record. Thank you very much. MS. ASFIION-CICKO: Thank you. CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. The changes have been read into the record. They've been accepted by the applicant. Is there any further discussion on the part of the Planning Commission? If not, is there a motion subject to those changes read? Go ahead, Joe. MR. SCHMITT: Don't we have to approve the GMP amendment first? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We're going to approve them both. We can do that one first, if you'd like. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Simultaneously or two different motions? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, we have two motions. You can motion that one first if you'd like. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: All right. Well, I motion that we approve PL2015002167, which is the GMP amendment, and PUDA-PL}0 -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You've got to do -- let's finish the GMP first. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Okay. GMP. I motion that we approve the GMP amendment. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And there's no stipulations - COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Subject to the -- CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, there's no stipulations inthe PUD. (Multiple speaken speaking. ) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Seconded by Patrick. Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All in favor, signiff by saying aye. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Aye. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Aye. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Aye. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 7-0. Nowthe PUD. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Likewise, the PUDA-PL2015000002L66,Carolina Village, and -- or -- well, it's the Vanderbilt Commons now, so I recommend subject to the stipulations and edits that you announced on the record. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Is there a second? COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Seconded by Patrick. Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor, siprff by saying aye. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Aye. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Aye. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Aye, Page 34 of73 October 19, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Aye. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposes? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 7-0. And this will not come back for consent, so I don't need a vote on that. It only happens if we do vote on it. But I will be looking to get a copy ofyour document before it goes to the Board's agenda so we can make sure everything that we have on notes is up - is up to snuff. MR. HOOD: Absolutely. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. With that, thank you for your time today. MR. HOOD: Thaak you, all. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank all of you. ++*And with that, we will move into 9C. 9C is a longstanding and long time to get to us LDC amendment for preservation standards regarding off-site preserves, and this is something that we've continued from July to August to September to October. So it's been continued many times. I don't believe this is - we have - disclosures are necessary for this, so we willjust - MS. ASHTON-CICKO: No. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - move right into Jeremy's presentatiorq and then we'll go into questions and public testimony. Jeremy, it's all yours. MR. FRANTZ: Good moming. Jeremy Frantz with the Growth Management Department. So it's been a couple of months since we saw and talked about this last - I'll run through the amendment and kind of explain what each section is doing. I'll put it up on the visualizer. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. MR. FRANTZ: We'll have it up there evenhrally. So the first section, the purpose and intent has not changed a whole lot over lhe course ofthis amendment. We have made some grammatical changes suggested by Commissioner Fryer, and then we have also amended the section to reference the 21,7E0 square feet or one-halfacre. Moving on, the existing applicability section has been completely stricken, and we have added a new applicability above what were previously the restrictions. That applicability is specirying that the native vegetation requirement may be taken offsite only when the actual requirement is a half acre or less. And also we've maintained the restrictions as prohibitions. WeVe made a couple of changes in the document on the visualizer. I'll try to zoom in a little bit more. So this is a change to the existing prohibition regarding some habitat types. We had received some comments &om Tim Hall by way of Mark Strain, Commissioner Strain, and so we thought these were appropriate to clearly identify how that zl0-foot width is measured. We have another minor change in B for griunmar. At the end of those prohibitions, weVe added a statement that the requkement - ifthe requirement is greater than a half acre, that it cant be taken offsite. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, actually, on that page, in our packet we had a D that said "deviations or variances from this section are prohibited." That's been removed. MR. FRANTZ: Oh, yes. I'm sorry. I couldn't highlight the text that wasn't there. That will come at the end. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. Thank you. MR. FRANTZ: Yeah. So there was a change there. We'll get to that later. And then the next two sections identified the methods or the process for getting approval. There's several instances when the off-site preserves can be approved administratively, and for any other instance the approval would be ttfough either a PUD deviation or a variance, whichever is applicable. We've got a couple ofstatements here about how that preserve requirement is calculated. That has Page 35 of 73 October 19, 2017 not changed fiom previous iterations of the amendment. And then changes to this - the off-site altematives represent the Commission's recommendation to only allow for monetary payments. And, again, that monetary payment is based on the AUIR No. 4 Community Parklands. CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: There were some changes to that page that you don't have there. You're going to show us those separately? MR. FRANTZ: I don't believe I have any changes to this page other than that section that you mcntioned was moved. That will come at the end. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. But then let's go back to tnple i. MR. FRANTZ: Sure. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: There was supposed to have been an Item E considered there, and when we talked, projects where native vegetation does not meet dimensional standards. Dd you - how did you see that -- I mean, I know wc talked about it. It's not added. Not that you need to add it. I'm just saying, you didn't even present it. So did you decide not to use it? MR. FRANTZ: Yeah. We had not intended to add that additional instance for administrative approval. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh, okay. See 4 where it says "off-site preserves approved through a public hearing except as limited"? Tim had suggested the word "prohibited," since that's what we use. No, keep going down. You took it off the page. See where the word "limited" is under 4, second line? MR. FRANTZ: Yeah. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That was to match up to be prohibited. Did you not think that was appropriate? MR. FRANTZ: Wel[, what wete referencing there is actually all of HlF2 which includes not only the list ofprohibitiors, but also the limitation to a half acre. So we were using the word "limited" to kind of caph:re all ofthose different prohibitions or limitations in that section. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Under -- and I'm just trying to follow up as Tim and I had talked. MR. FRANTZ: Sure. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I told him we would at least discuss it, and I didn't hear the discussion, so I thought we'd discuss it. Under 5, for thc purpose - this is the issue about the PUD. He had suggested, aad I passed it on to you that - how do we heat expanded PUDs? MR. FRANTZ: If a PUD expands and the expansion results in a preserve requirement of greater than a half acre, then they would not be able to use the off-site preserves for that expansion. Ifthe expansion doesn't result in a preserve requirement ofless than a half acre or, sorry, of more than a halfacre, then they could use thc off-site allemative again. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So if they bring in an area to the PUD and they already have an acre in the PUD but they want to bring in another area of land that addsjust under a halfacre, they don't have to bring it in even though they already have an acre on the PUD? MR. FRANTZ: They wouldn't be able to utilize the off-site program, because we would be looking at the total native vegetation retention requirement for the entire project rather than just the new addition. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. What if it's not contiguous? What if the half acre or less is not contiguous to the originat PUD because - we have a PUD, by the way, that's comrng in with a similar situation. So if you have a - the only viable habitat or preserve area on the piece that's being added is on the opposite side of the PUD that the PUD it's being added to is at, you wouldn't have a contiguous preserve. So that stand-alone 20,000 square feet of preserve, can that be done offsite, or would we still insist it be done on site? MR. FRANTZ: Well, I dont know without looking at the project ftat I could say exactly what would happen, but I can point to both the sections. So we would be looking at the preserve acreage for the entire site,but then when - depending on how that work out; I don't know what the preserve acreage is. If it were -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Let's use your example of one acre. Say you have one acre on the original PUD. It's on site. They're bringing a comparable size - another chunk to the PUD. That other chunk has a Page 36 of73 October 19, 2017 noncontiguous additional 20,000 square feet of potential preservation. Would we require them to keep that less than halfacre on that foreign piece thafs now being brought in even though it's not contiguous, or is there provisions where they could take that off site? MR. FRANTZ: Yeah, I believe so, because that section that we're looking at stipulates that the preserve acreage will be calculated based on the entirc project. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. But that doesn't answer my question. MS. ASHTON-CICKO: Well, I think the preserve would be recalculated, so if they can fit it where the other preserve is and it's not already a developed parcel, they would probably put it there, but they v/ould work with Summer. Ifnot, yeah, it would be a stand-alone preserve. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, that's what I'm trying to fuid out. If it's a stand-alone preserve less than a halfacre and it's not contiguous to the original PUD's preserve, what do we do with it? Summer? MS. ARAQUE: Well, I wanted to add in - Summer Araque, Environmental Planning, for the record - that this new -- this revision says that any existing preserves cannot be taken offsite. So you have to consider that as well. So ifyou have an existing PUD - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm not suggesting you take the existing PUD preserves offsite. I'm askrng, ifyou add another area to the PUD and it has a less-than-half-acre area that should be a preserve but it's not contiguous to the original PUD's one-aq€-or-more preserve, let's say for discussion, what do we do with that less than half acre that's not contiguous, stand-alone island somewhere out in the distance? MS. ARAQUE: Okay. So the otho area - and you said it - there was a project you had in mind. Has that area already been developed? CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: No. The project - the additional has not been developed; that's why they're coming in to do a PUDA. MS. ARr{QUE: No, the original area. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: The onginal area's aU built out except for the preservation area. MS. ARAQUE: Okay. So, I mean, it's something to consider, if you would like. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I was asked the question, how do we treat that, and I dont have an answer. I'm tuming to you. And ifyou don't have an answer based on the language in front ofus, maybe we need to have the arswer if there's going to be something that's going to come up. MS. ARAQUE: Yeah. If it's something you want to consider including in here, then we can take a look at that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But, you know, I would think that if you've got a noncontiguous piece that should be considered as a viable preserve but it's less than a halfacre, we should allow the same flexibility to move it offsite because it's going to be just a stand-alone useless piece ofhabitat, as we would consider the first halfacre. MS. ARAQUE: I think that that should only be for in that particular case that you just described where it's an amendment and the original PUD has already been developed, because ifyou have a PUD that hasn't been developed and then they'rc adding more acreage in, you should be able to make it contiguous preserve, correct? Because it hasn't -- because the vegetation hasn't been rmpacted yet, so you would just add on to the existing preserve that was already identified. CIIAIRMAN STRAN: But then youle saying that if you havent developed the site, all the vegetation on the site is valuable vegetatioq so any greater than half-acre requirement should be preserved wherever you want to put it on site, where I know that's not the truth. You guys specifically look for the best habitat on site, and that's where the preservation is usually applied to. So I'm not sure your example's going to work out the way you've suggested. MS. ARAQLTE: Well, as you said, in that pafticular case, you could be looking at, that the new additional acreage being added on may have more valuable habitat; however, historically, the preserve area that was originally identified is usually the area that's kept. It has to be a very extreme case that it's like a xeric scrub and that you've got - the other area is so low in criteria that we would say you have to move it over here. Generally speaking, you would just add on to that existing prcssrve that was already identified. Page 37 of 73 Octobcr 19, 2017 CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, you know what, Tim started this mess. I'll let him bring it up, because I'm sure he will have a better time - he'll have a good example as well, so - I thought it was a good point. I'll let him continue it when he comes and up and speak, because he's here for a reason today. So I dont need to - MS. AIL{QLIE: Yeah. I mean, all I can say is we can add it in, but it would probably be a little bit lengthy, more than one line, because we would want to be very specific to amendments where the PUD has already been developed. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MS. ASHTON-CICKO: Mr. Chair? CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. MS. ASI{TON-CICKO: I think there are a lot of variables here, because if the front parcel or the original parcel was developed, it's possible they could take the entire preserve and put it on the back. You know, it's all they negotiate and work it out with the environmental people depending on the value ofthe habitat, so... CHAIRMAN STRAIN: StAN? COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: I'm positive I've seen projects come through where they annex a piece that's not too developable because it's so environmentally sensitive and then want to develop something inside an existing buildout area that's already a preserve. I'm positive I've seen projects like that come through. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, and that's fine. I was looking at a different request but, yeah, you're right. I recall that, too, but... COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Yeah, but I think that kind of falis in the same thing. Wcll... CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, it may be fine as wriften. We'll just have to let Tim descnbe what trouble he got us into. I'm trying to interpret his hand signals. Go ahead, Jeremy. MR. FRANTZ: Okay. So, continuing on, I mentioned the monetary payments section and that the land donation portion has been completely stncken through. In the version here on the visualizer, this section titled "PUD zoning," we've removed the first sentence. It was a little bit duplicative ofthe sentence that comes after it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: There's your language. MR. FRANTZ: And then as you mentroned, we had removed that stipulation that deviations or variances are prohibited, and we've moved it down to the endjust, kind o[, for organizational reasons. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anybody have any questions of staff at this point? COMMISSIONER FRYER: I do. Jeremy, if my note is concct, back in July 20, I believe it was our consensus to prohibit off-site preservation whether by cash payment or land donation. Then your memo came through, maybe - yeah, August 9, and you pointed out that Subdivisions l0 and 13 of the GMP, applicable GMP Element 6.1.1.10 and 13 require there to be provision made for land donation and cash payment. So right there there is a conflict between what our board expressed what it wanted to do and what it may do under the GMP. And so the approach that you have taken in your most recent proposal proceeds without regard to the sentiments that were expressed by this board on the grounds that we couldn't have done that without an amendment to the GMP. My question is, is why aren't we considering an amendment to the GMP? Because I stand by my point of view ofJuly 20 that we should prohibit off-site preservation. MR. BOSI: Mike Bosi, Planning and Zoning director' Mr. Fryer, Commissioner Fryer, let me address that. That could most certainly be a recommendation that would come from this board if that's the collective feeling that the Growth Management Plan should be amended to prohibit off-site presewe allowances, but the GMP language speaks to that now and says we have to have that. So this amendment has been modified to recognize that requirement from our Gro\,'th Management Plan, which is the highest regulatory document that we have at the local level. Page 38 of 73 October 19,2017 If there is the desire for this board collectively to go that way, it would be a direction for us to go amend the GroMh Management Plan to remove that allowance. COMMISSIONER FRYER: And, Mike, I appreciate and am thankftl that you guys caught that GMP requirement of 10 and l3 of6.1.1. But it seems too me that the threshold question, before we get to much in the minutiae ofthe language that we've got displayed on the visualizer, the question is whether we would prefer to give effect to the sentiment we expressed -- and I think it was unarumous - on July 20 that we want to prohibit off-site preservation which would take us down the GMP amendment route. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But I think that would have to be probably done in two steps. Right now to fix what is already probably problematic in the code, this can get done, and then we could also, if the majority felt, recommend to the BCC to initiate a GMP amendment to firther remove that requirement of the GMP if that's the way the board - this panel decides to recommend. Is that an appropriate - COMMISSIONER FRYER: That would be. I guess I didn't understand that the problems with the current language were of such immediacy and seriousness that they had to be fixed right away before we could go the GMP amendment route. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I guess it depends on how serious you think they are. What's happened is the expansion of the off-site preserve has, let's say, badgered this board ever since we started allowing it quite a while ago, and it's grown substantially. The requests are greater. They're for more acreage. Thcy're irregardless of what we have tried to set as a standard to stop it. And this was going to kind of put all that to bed so we would not -- not allow it as deviations, but simply prohibit it. Then you can't ask for a deviation. And then we're back to half acre. The half acre was more thought of as a necessity in regards to some placesjust aren't going to fimction, and an argument for a little bit off site is better, and prohibiting the rest would stop what we're into now, because we're getting sites coming in and asking for two, three, four, five acres off site, and that was never the intent. But we've opened the door, unforh.rnately. And I think right now we're trying to close it. Joe? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Yeah. This goes back a long ways. When we prohibited - back in the days when I was a part ofthe county staffand we prohibited off-site preservations, these small areas that were identified as preserves, oftentimes over the years, theyjusr morphed into nothing more than a landscape buffer and the preserve was fi.mctionally useless as a preserve. I can cite examples. I choose not to on the record, but they - frankly, we would send code enforcement out. We'd try and enforce these, but they were typically maintained alrnost like they were landscape rather than what they were supposed to be in a nahlal preserve. This allows for these small, essentially nonfi.mctional areas to try and create what I think is more beneficial is a cluster where we would cluster some ofthese off-site preserves into a larger preserve that becomes a useful environmental entity rather thanjust a landscape buffer. COMMISSIONER FRYER: That makes sense to me. I just hope we don't lose the original thought and sentiment expressed back in July 20 that we'd like to prohibit off-site expression or -- preservation, or if there needs to be a de minimus, we can consider that. The main problem I had with this was the land donation option anyway. But when we settled on an absolute prohibition in our vote, I was comfortable with that. So I hope there's some way that we can put this in the queue and not lose sight ofit, so if we vote for this it doesnt go away forever for a long period of time without reconsideration at the appropriate level, which is GMP. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Stan? COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Yeah, what we're trying to preserve is habitat. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Right. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: And habitat is habitat for fauna not flora, although, you know, I guess maybe some people think habitat isjust the flora that live there. What I would like to do is, whatever we do here, I would like to preface it with the consideration that we don't like off-site preserves, but -- and we would like it changed, but having to do something, this is what we choose to do. Page 39 of 73 october 19, 2017 CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: And I think we ought to proffer that to the Board with the recommendafion like that -- COMMISSIONER FRYER: I like it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - and at the same time ask the Board to consider direction on the GMP if they so desire, because in the end it's going to be the Board that's going to have to make that decision. So, Joe? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I just have a question once you finish with that. My question, in regards to the cost. I was not at the meeting whcn the final approval was in regards to the AUIR community and regional land summary per-acre unit cost. When I first read that, I - my perception was that that summary actually is an inflated value because it's typically park land in the urban area, which I think may be a brgher price of land than typically what you would pay for preserve. But is it - the Board ageed that that was the best pricing strategy? And the second piece of that is, I just, out ofcunosity, as not part of this LDC amendment, but where does the money go and what will it be used for? MR. FRANTZ: Sure. So we went through several iterations in trying to determine what the value should be. The way that this amendment started was to try and work out not only the cost of purchasing land but also maintaining it in perpetuity. And so as we went through different iterations ofhow we would achieve that number, you can see some of the suggestions, the recommendations that we had fiom the Development Services Advisory Committee and the Conservation Collier Land Acquisition Commiftee, advisory committee, they both had different methodologies for how to come up with that number. When it got to this Planning Commission's consideration, the attempt was to find a number that was more justifiable and that could be modified on a somewhat regular basis based on, you know, the cost of purchasing land. If it is a little bit higher than maybe what you would expect to pay to puchase the land, I think the - you know, that kind ofconsideration was built in based or the need to also manage the land. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Okay. I'm just curious. I mean, I missed that - of course, I was involved in all the othcr iterations and the various pricing when we got this back in - the last time we saw it was, what, back in September. And that was a new change that I noticed, and I was just curious as to how that - MR. FRANTZ: Sure. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: -- how you came about that. But if that's what the Board agrees is the best benchmark, then fine, we'll move with that. I just think it may escalate the cost, but that's fine. And the money goes for, what, purchasing ofland tkough the - MR. FRANTZ: Through Conservation Collier. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Conservation collier. MR. FRANTZ: Right. Yeah, we're not changing that part of the process. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. We have some public speakers. Anybody else have any questions of staffbefore we go to public speakers? Mike, would you call the public speakers, please. MR. BOSI: I only have one submitted registered public speaker. It's Alison Westcott. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: Well, Tim's not going to get out of here \ffithout talking today. But, Alison, come on up. Ladies first. MS. WESTCOTT: Thank you very much. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: We will invite Tim up separately. Special invitation. MS. WESTCOTT: Okay. So Alison Westcott for the Conservancy of Southwest Florida. On behalf ofthe Conservation and its more than 6,000 supporting families, we support the Planning Commission's recommendation for the addltion of a standard prohibition on off-site preserves when the on-site native vegetation requirement is greater than 21,780 squme feet. We support prohibiting deviations or variances from this. Think ofthis as eight teruris courts or the size ofhalfofa football field. Thisis a sizable Page 40 of 73 October 19, 2017 piece of property. We know that Collier County citizens care about preserving the environment, and it makes good economic sense. The county voted unani -- sorry - overwhelmingly in favor of Conservation Collier in 2006, and in20l4 Amendment I passed by 75 percent statewide. There was a survey that just came out this week by Nielsen and the University of South Florida which showed that 56 percent ofFloridlans say that they favor a tax to support environmental issues. Among Millenmals, the margin was 2-1, and in Collier County this included issues like beach replenishment and protection of endangered wildlife- We -- let's see. Florida's rapid growth and development in tourism revenues is driven by the value of its natural assets. We all know this. In 2016, 2.6 million people visited South Florida's national park, and this added more than $313 million to the local economy and supported over 3,000jobs. So we would like to see mor€ emphasis on incorporating nahle into the urban landscape, into urban development. Let's not forget Houston, a city u,ithout zoning laws. In one of their watersheds, 70 percent of the wetland preserves weae replaced by impermeable pavements, including roads and other forms of development. Coastal wetlands provide storm protection valued at over $23 billion a year in the United States. So as we know, coastal wetlands blunt storm surges, they build up land and create shoreline barriers, and they reduce flooding and erosion to defend communities against rising tides. So this is natural infrastructure. It acts as self-maintaining in this case. Coastal wetlands act as horizontal levies, and they provide a host ofother services that man-made vertical levies do not. AIso, trees. Trees are real -- have real economic value, according to the Nature Conservancy sfudy that appears in the recommendations. Most of us know that trees improve our air quality. They reduce our temperahrres. They provide stormwater mitigation in urban areas. But let's think about their aesthetic value. The study tells us that this is 20 times greater than any ofthese other causes. So people, we know, will spend up to 20 percent more for generally comparable homes next to green parks and next to open space. In Collier County, this could be even higher. I've seen figures as high as 47 percent more for property next to a geen space. We - the studies show us that shoppers wilt pay 12 percent more for goods and services in central business districts under a highquality tree canopy. So trees have real economic value. Native vegetation retention should be designed to promote on-site preserves whenever possible - this is what we believe at the Conservancy - because people need nahre. It restores us - small preserves of wood and wetland in urban neighborhoods for mosaic habitats for biodiversity which may not be present in large off-site preserves. Consider the Conservancy's Smith Preserve. This is only seven acres of lard. It's highly urbanized, and yet it has four distinct habitats, and it's home to 965 different species oforganisms. So coastal ecosystems presewes should be an integral part ofour urban development but, since the late 1950s in Florida, has eliminated 50 percent of its historic mangrove habitat. So we believe all preserves, regardless of size, have ecological value. We would prefer no off-site preservations be allowed; however, we rurderstand that in some cases the off-site preserves would be very small. So we do not oppose an exception for properties smaller than the 2l ,780 square feet. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Alison. Patrick? COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: No. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Tim, do you have time to go through your issues with us, or those that we haven't addressed? MR. HALL: Sure. For the record, Tim Hall with Turrell, Hall & Associates. And I saw that some ofthe changes have been made, and I appreciate you guys doing that. I had met with Mark before the prior Planning Commission meeting because I was going to be out of town and knew I wouldn't be able to aftend, and so I apologize for the coni.sion with those comments and then these. To start off, I mean, my first question had to do u/ith the consistency with the GMP. From the way I Page 41 of 73 October 19, 2017 read the Growth Management Plan and this cwrent proposal, it seems like there's two issues that came up. One is, when I read the GMP the way I interpret it, it seems like I should have three choices in terms of if I want to go offsite or if I want to do off-site preservation. Either the monetary payment, the land donation, or it gives you kind ofa nebulous, you know, donation to another land entity. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Sir, excuse me. Others may lmow what your frm does, but I dont. MR. HALL: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm an ecologist, a wildlife ecologist. My firm does marine and environmental consulting here in town. We're based in Naples. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Sorry to interrupt. Thank you. MR. IIALL: No, that's hne. The second issue is that the GM - again, the way I read the GMP it says I can go - it says that an owner should be able to go off site for all or a portion ofthe required preserve. And, again, this amendment is basically saying all or nothing. So those are just two issues that I saw in terms of the way I read the GMP versus what's being proposed in the preservation standard. To go through the language, Stan brought up viability in terms ofhabitat, and this is the ecologist in me spcaking. I agree with you guys that there needs to be hard line, you know, over or above, but if you're talking about habitat viability, I think that that number should be two acres, not a half acre, and thatjust has to do with drfferent habitat suitability indexes and buffers that are required for viability and habitats and all. And most of them call for 80 to 300 feet ofarea buffer from a core to maintain the viability ofthat habitat for the majority ofthe species associated with that habitat. And ifyou take a 300-by-300-foot square, it comes out to 90,000 square feet, which is right about two acres. That's where I come up with that. And that's just - if you're looking at it in terms of viability, I think the number should bc two acres instead of half, but I'm not going to argue with you guys about what the number is. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Does it matter what the natue of the native vegetation is? MR. HALL: In terms of that, it can, yeal. And, I mean, youte stil1 -- a panther's not going to utilize a two-acre preserve, but a lot of your smaller mammals will. And the thing that that two acres does is it prevents you from having adverse interactions in your neighborhood - in the neighborhoods theyte adjacent to. If you've got a preserve that's right on that limit, an acre, and you've got raccoons and rabbits and armadillos and that kind of stuffcoming into that presewe, they're going to be into your communities. They're going to be more susceptible to being hit by vehicles, to being harassed by pets, you know, to all of those different things. So that's one of the issues with small preserves. I agree with everything that the lady from the Conservancy said in terms ofthe value oftrees and the value of green space, but that can be done through parks, through intemal green spaces, intemal greenways. It doesn't have to be native preserve. And the other thing with those types of green spaces is in my experience, a lot of times you gct bigger buy-off fiom the residents because they can be more interactive in that. A lot of times you put a preserve in a development, and it's off limits. Everybody has the impression that you have to stay out of it and stay away from it. So it's a green space, but they don't have a good ability to interact with that green space. They can walk arormd the outside of it, but actually to get into it and experience it is more difficult sometimes. I'm sorry. I'm rambling. I'm going offtopic here and giving you my personal things. ButI appreciate the change to the measurement from the root line. That makes things a lot easier and a lot less able to be fudged. And now you can't go get a trimming permit to fim yow mangroves and say, okay, well, now we trimmed them; they're less than 40 feet wide. You're not allowed to trim the root, so that's a good - you know, a good standard. I wanted to clariry; again, Mark, brought up an iter! Roman Numeral III and Roman Numeral VI where it says, except as limited. I read all of Roman Number II, and it just seems like it's straight prohibitions to me, so I just think the "limited" should be "pmhibited" on both ofthose. They brought up the - one ofthe requests that I had made under iii as well was to add an E, which was to allow for administrative approval where preserves dont meet the actual dimensional standards as well Page 42 of 73 October 19, 2017 but, I mean, ifthat has to go thrcugh the regular public hearing, that will just be the way it is. Mark had brought up the issue with regards to ifa PUD expands, there could be issues associated with this. And one ofthem is the example he gave: Ifyou have an existing on-site preserve, the property you'rc bringing in increases -- it's going to be based on what the overall PUD requiement is. So using the example, we have a one-acre preserve in a PUD, and when you bring the property in. your preserve requirement goes up to 1.2 acres or 1.1-acre. That extra .1 acre is going to have to be provided somewhere on the site. It's going to be very small. And if the existing PUD is already built out or the existing preserve can't be built upon, youte going to be left with a very small nonviable area in the new portion of the PUD. The other example that I had thought could come up was ifyou have an existing PUD that had less than a half-acre requirement and already provided off site, now you bring in a new portion, and the overall site requirement now is more than a half acre but you've alrcady done a portion ofit offsite; you're in definite gray area here because this says you can't go off site for more than half, and it also says it's all or nothing. So it seems like you could then say that the new portion has to prcvide the preserve for the entire PUD even though it's already becn done off site. So that's the other example that I thought could come up in the future. I dont have an example of it, but I wasjust trying to think through different iterations ofwhat could come up with that. And then Ijust wanted to clanfr rmder iii as well that all of those administrative approvals are still ody valid for properties that are less than a half acre of off-site preservation. The way that I read this changes is before essential services could go offsite for any amount ofpreserve, and it seems like now you're saying that your essential services are also limited. Ifthey have more than a half acre ofpreserve requircment on site, they have to do it all on site. That's the way I'm reading this. So I just wanted to clariry that that is actually, in fact, what it's saying. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And we'I get that clarification from Jeremy when you finish, Tim. MR. HALL: I think thafs the -- I mean, that's the extent of my comments. If I wasn't clear on anything, I'd be happy to try to explain. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No. I think lve got a couple questions from Jeremy as a result of the comments you made, but I do just want to tell you one thing that has pushed me to try to support this limitation. Your point about trees and green space is good, but I can tell you, ifyou have a developer come in here now, they want to take their preserves off site, and you say, well, fine, just give us some green space on the site, we're still going to have the same problems. They don't want to release a foot of land to anything but money-making development. And I have sat on this board so long and I've heard so many excuses why it's all got to go offsite, and the value that they're looking at is, well, it's got to go offsite because ifs not viable habitat or not this, not that. Well, you know what, it's viable geen space, and green space is needed - we even got Consewation Collier here because people really are thinking greot space, not so much conservation land. And this is an ability to keep green space as much as it is to keep habitat. It happens to function for both. lt works great for the environmental community. But I can tell you, ifwe didn't have this, to go out and tell them to replace it with green space, it isn't going to happen. I have not seen it happen in 16 years. So I like your suggestion, but it's just not practical, and this -- when we can't deal reasonably with some of the community to get this to happen as it should happen to provide better atrnosphere for our citizens, then the only alternative is to make it a little harder for this to change, and that's my emphasis for trying to go this way, from my perspective at least. MR. HALL: And I don't disagree with you. I mean, I'm in the position where I'm usually having thosc arguments with most of the clients before they get to you also. CIIAIRMAN STRAN: I know. MR. HALL: One thing that I would say, if you want to make it a liftle bit easier, is allow for the ability to put in pathways within a preserve without having it count against your preserve requirement, because ifyou put in a half-acre preserve and then you want to come in later to put in a pathway through there, and you want to pave it so that your ADA, you know, accessibility is taken care of and all, that pathway has to come out ofthe preserve calculation the way it's calculated right now. Page 43 of 73 October 19. 2017 And any animal that's in a half-acre preserve is going to use that pathway. It's not taking away from that viability. So that would be a way to improve your access to those without penalizing the owners or the homeowner. A lot of time ids the homeowners associations that would like to come in and do that later. It's not the developer that does it up fiont, but the homeowners association would like to do it. Putting the pathways in gets people out there, gets people looking at it. It also, then - they notice when the exotics are getting thick or when something is going wrong. So being able to have people out there more often also would help you in terms of the maintenance ofthat area. So ifthere could be some way to allow for a portion or something ofpathways for access that didn't cormt against that requirement, that would help as well. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: The only - and then you're strictly talking the pathways, because what happens with the preservations now? They have their own sections in most of the PUDs, and herc are the standards, and they list the allowable uses, and they all seem benign, passive rccreation uses, but theylc including gazebos and conning towers so they can watch, supposedly, birdlife. And so it's always getting brgger. Every time we give an inch, it's two miles, three miles, four miles. It's huge. And that's what's happened with uses of preserves. We're adding so much now to the preserves, that I don't : I can understand your argument about the pathways, but I can see the next altemative. They'll come in with pathways going crisscross across the whole preserve and say, well, we're allowed to put preserves - the pathways and they don't count anymore. So I don't know how to - I dont know how to stop what's happening in regards to the exaggeration of the rules, and that's gone - and lately it's gotten even worse. And, Tim, I'm reluctant to think we need to be more flexible whcn every time we try to be stnct, it hlms out to be flexible when we don't intend it to be. So I'm -- you lnow, I'm a little concemed about it all. Joe? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I would agree. So, that the old adage, you give an inch, they take a mile. But I think Tim is correct, could we not say like a 5 percent or 2 percent? No more than 2 percent -- MR. HALL: I would make the number even smaller than that. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Make it - I don't know what. MR. HALL: I mean, I haven't run the numbers in my head, but figure if you've got a half-acre preserve, that's roughty 100 by 200 feet. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Right. MR. HALL: So if you go a short path through that, or let's say a long path. Ifyou go a 200-foot pathway that's four-foot wide, that's 800 square feet. What's 800 divided by 2, I 00 (sic)? That's - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: About 5 percent, something like that, I thinh something like that. Yeah, less than 5. About 4 percent. MR. HALL: About 4 percent. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I mean, I would not have a problem - COMMISSIONER EBERT: I wouldn't either. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: - saying less than - no less than 2 percent or 3 percent or whatever you want to say. MR. HALL: And if you do - I mean, and I was going the long way. If you do the shon way, it's Iess. I mean, I think if you said 2 percent or 3 percent, you would cover anlhing that would come up. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: You know, if we get into gazebos and parking areas and raised pathways and ADA requirements. MR. HALL: And. again - COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: That's the problem. MR. HALL: - I'm talking about - COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Boardwalks and sruff. MR. HALL: You lnow, it work good on small preserves. If you say 2 percent of a Mirasol preserve, which is 1,100 acres, then all ofa sudden you're saying, well, we can do something on - you know, on 20 acres out there. That becomes problematic. I understand your angst, but I just would like to see some kind ofability to utilize those areas. Page 44 of 73 October 19, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody else? Go ahead. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Mr. Chairman, I have one comment. So, Tim, l'm with you. I look around at a lot of communities, and I see some ofthese preserves and areas, and I agree wholeheartedly with also what Mark Strain was saying, and several other commissioners. When you mcntioned pathways, and yow idea is a good idea because you hit one key thing that I heard, which was the wildlife can potentially sharc a path you're talking about. How do we differentiate to make sure that path is accessible, unlike a boardwalk where humans can walk on it and I'm walking through a wooded area and it's beautiful, go to a gazebo, but none ofthe wildlife's going to get to enjoy that raised-up boardwalk area. See, my -- I mean, that's - when you mentioned pathways, is there some differentiation where you're talking about on the ground where all little critters aDd amadillos and things and deer can use the same path, or if it's raised up, they can't? MR. HALL: Well, it would depend on the habitat, really. If you're going through scrub habitat, a boardwalt you know, may be appropriate because there are some issues associated with people, you know, on -- walking off into scrub habitat. Some of the plants are really susceptible to compaction and all . So a boardwalk might not be a bad idea, and you'd want to elevate it a little bit so that your tortoises and everything can go under it. A deer is going to jump over, you know, most of them. lf youte in wetlands or you have a swamp area, then an elevated boardwalk, you know, makes sense. It's the only way you're going to be able to do something like that. So they're all going to be very site specific and site dependent. And, actually, boardwalks - I'm not sure. Ifyou do an elevated boardwalk, I'm not sure if they count that against you or not. Sumrner could clariS that. But I know that ifyou do an achral on-ground pathway that limits the growth, the vegetation, then it is counted against you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anyhing else of Tim? Go ahead Stan. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Yeah. Just - when I was talking about habitat, most scientist deal with hectares, 300 - a 100 meter by 100 metsr, 300 feet by 300 feet, 1,000 square feet, two-and-a-half acres, that's about a hectare. There was a study done a couple of decades ago where they took one hectare isolated parcel, a l0 hectare, 100 hectare, 1,000 hectare, and then they compared it to what was inside a forest of the same size. And the computer couid always tell that they were dealing with an isolated parcel or inside thc forest. So youte not really preserving habitat even at the very small areas. Now, what you do with the small area is the edge effect, which is you change the light and the humidity and the access. The edge effect goes partway into the parcel. So if you have a parcel that's only 50 feet wide and 400 feet long, you're going to lose the whole parcel to edge effect, which probably around here may go in 25 or 50 feet. You totally change the habitat. You change even the flora that's in there, not just the fauna. The fauna disappear completely, so... MR. HALL: Yeah. Even the bio/geo chemistry of the soils and all can change along those edges. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Yeah. So I see your point about the two acres, but T still go back to I don't think we should allow it at all. Just - you know, all we're doing is preserving trees. Okay. So we're preserving trees. You know, it's green space, and I think by running paths through it, you're not going to dishub a whole lot ofthe native faun4 because it'sjust not going to be there. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I would like to get this wapped up. We have - this is the sixth meeting on these few pages. I am tired ofhearing it. Tim, you had five opportunities to come to us, and you wait to the eleventh hour, and we're going to be limrted on what we can change today. MR. HALL: And I told you I have been out of town at every one of those meetings, so I do apologizc. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You've got your priorities, you know? MR. TIALL: I do. And I don't have an issue with this. There were some clarifications that I wanted to make, I understand why you guys are doing it and the direction you're trying to go. I just - you know, like I said, I j ust wanted to - the GMP question, I thinlg is important. That one, I thinlg does need to be Page 45 of 73 October 19, 2017 addressed. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And I've got some followup to your points, and I appreciate it, and I think we're done with your discussion, ifyou dont mind. Okay. Jeremy, three points. When you urote this, did you have any input from the Comprehensive Planning Deparhnent, GMP Departrnent? MR. FRANTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: They're okay with what you've wrote? MR. FRANTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Do you have -- did you have any review by anybody that deals with some ofthe larger essential sewiccs needs, like Mike Sawyo in planning for transportatiorL or Trinity or somebody like that? Because this will affect essential services. And I'm not sure, based on the comment that Tim had, that that's been thought out or if they've weighed in on it. MR. FRANTZ: They may have had some input early -- maybe two years ago or something, I don't recal1, but on this draft that you're looking at today, I don't believe we did. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Did they have any input on the size of the preserve that could be taken offsite? Because right now, how is essential services regulated in regards to off-site preserves? MR. FRANTZ: The existing language allows for essential service facilities other than parks for any size preserve. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And that's my concem. I mean, basically we would be entrapping our essential services operations in Collier County if we - and that's a good point that Tim brought out. If we left it in under kiple i, like it is, they'd be restricted to half acre. And I'm not sure that's the right thing to do when we've got road systems and piping and everything going -- it's going to have to go out to the rural area to service all the new facilities and densities that are going to go out there. Summer, did you have something you want to add? MS. ARAQUE: Summer Araque, for the record. I don't think that roadways would even be included in this. I mean - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Then roadways are not considered essential services? MS. ARAQUE: Right-of-way - roads that are built -- public roads that are built don't have to provide a preserve. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Good. Then what about the essential services for piping and things that - utilities that go through - that have to go alongside the roads in the utility easements outside the right-of-ways? MS. ARAQUE: Outside of the right-of-way that would be on some type ofadjacent project? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, youVe got PUEs on most all your roadway systems on the sides of them, l0 feet outside the right-of-way. How are those addressed? MS. ARAQUE: That does not require a preserve. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, than wete good. MS. AIAQUE: So youle looking at a parcel - CHAIRMAN STRAN: Then I don't have an issue. Tim, I dont think there's an issue. MS. ARAQUE: Yeah. I mean, you would be looking at a project, like some t)?e of parcels that we think of typically not along the roadway, but an actual project like a sewer plant or - MR. BOSI: Like a wastewater treatment. MS. ARAQUE: - or something like that. What's that? MR. BOSI: Like a wastewater treatrnent facility. MS. ARTdIQUE: Correct. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. Well, that's good. MS. ARAQUE: In those cases I think what they've typically done is they've provided the preserve on site. So ifthey wanted to do different, they would need a deviation. CHAIRMAN STRAN: You're telling me they dont come under this; Im fine with that. That's all I needed to know. Page 46 of 73 October 19, 2017 This next thing is - COMMISSIONER EBERT: Go ahead. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - the idea conceming the parhways that Tim bmught up- Is there a desire for any, say, nonimpact for a certain percentage ofpathways? I think it does have a problem when you get into the largcr size preserves because we're not going to be doing a ratio. It's something brought up kind of late in the game, and maybe it could be looked at later on, but I don't know if it's that important for what wete dealing with today. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Can - that's where I wanted to come in. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead. COMMISSIONER EBERT: It was with Summer, because I had talked to her about this. I believe Autumn Woods has a pathway tkough their woods. lm finding people are more active. They're getting away from the golf They would rather have walking paths in the preserve, not the gazebos and these boardwalks or everything, but for bird watching, animal watching, they - theyjust seem - would like ro walk through some ofthese. So it's been brought to me several times, and I know I had talked to Summer on this, too. And I believe you're right, that they do take that away, and it really shouldn't be for these little ones. MR. FRANTZ: I thinJ< that regardless of what the Planning Commission's desire is regarding the use of preserves, it's probably a separate amendment. It wouldn't really belong in this section since we're only dealing with the off-site preserve program in this section. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Okay. MR. FRANTZ: You know, we can always bring up that evaluation as a part of a separate amendment. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Good. I'd rather take it offthe table and not bog this thing down anymore. Okay. Anybody else had any questions of staff, anybody at all? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Are there any other members of the public who have not spoken on this matter that would like to? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. With that, we have reached a point where we have a series of changes made by Jeremy today. WeVe heard input from a couple different members of the public. They're basically based on some of the followup. I'm not sure there needs to be any changes. Does anybody on this panel have any suggested changes to any ofthe language? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAN: If not, is there a motion to approve with the recornrnendations or changes made by -- presented to us today by Jeremy in the draft staffproposal? Joe? COMMISSIONER SCHMIfi: I make a motion that we approve as proffered to this panel. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is there a second? COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Second. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Point of information. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Were we going to add language that we saw this as a short-term solution or some other language to assure that we come back with a full-fledged consideration ofthe GMP? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That was a note I was going to bring up is that in the discussion we should include as part ofthe motion to the Board a recommendation to revisir the GMP language conceming this issue, and that will leave it open to anything we would want to do. Go ahead, Mike. MR. BOSI: And I guess what I'm looking for is consideration for a GMP amendment to the Board of County Commissioners regarding the prohibition of off-site preserve - COMMISSIONER FRYER: Yes. MR. BOSI: - because I heard the Planning Commission recognize that there was viability of small - of allowing off site when it -- under certain circumstances. There was a five-minute dialogue where Page 47 of 73 October 19, 2017 you had identified that in certain circumstanccs that it was justified to have off-site preserve. So what would we be asking the Bomd of County Commissioners we watrt to consider? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: The Planning Commission would want them to look at the possibility of eliminating any off-site preserves. I think that's the direction - COMMISSIONER FRYER: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - that some of the members of the Planning Commission -- it's not something - right now wc're supporting this because there's a practical application that not all preserves are going to work. MR. BOSI: Right. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: So this provides some flexibility. But there are members of this panel that would like to suggest maybe we need to revisit the GMP to eliminate the possibility of off-site preserves and possibly clear up the language with a multitude ofoptions that there seems to be by some people's interpretations. MR. BOSI: So the Planning Commission is making - or voting on whether they want to eliminate that flexibility in the future at the GMP level? CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: I don't know if weVe weighed in on that. I just think we're asking the Board to consider it. Right now I dont think -- I think it would be impractical to eliminate 100 percent of preserves from going offsite. I think you are going to have cases where we're going to need to say a half acre -- up to a half acre is allowed for various reasons that arc stated here. If we say 100 percent no, that's taking a pretty hard stance. Now, I don't disagree that we need it. But when you take it to the development community and you say, no more! not at all, zero, zilch under any condition, that might be a hard sell. At least this provides some flexibility. So I'm not necessarily thinking we need to go that route, but it's a question brought up, and I'm trying to make sure everybody on this Planning Commission has a say before it goes to the Board. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I don't support any - I think allowance for off-site preserve at a limited quantrty is acceptable. I would not support a GMP amendment that would prohibit it. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: Well, then as we - the, motion, then, would be to support thc language presented today and not make a recommendation on any changes to the GMP. Is that the - and I think this panel needs to understand that so we get the right vote. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Yes. MR. BOSI: So we're asking the Board of County Commissioners for staffto bnng back an evaluation of the current preservation requirements at the GMP level for consideration from the Planning Commission? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Wele not there yet. I'm trying to vocalize that. Your statements and our discussion is what wele getting to. I think Joe and Patrick have weighed in; what we're providing is what probably needs to be the minimum basis, and not eliminate it completely. I haven't heard fiom the rest of you. Then we'll - Stan, do you have any - COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Since I made the second, I would support prohibiting off-site preserves completely, but I will back Joe's - I will still second Joe's motion. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I think Joe's motion had built into it a disapproval on the part of this board to consider GMP amendments. Did I mishear? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: No. I made a motion to approve this amendment as written. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Just as written, okay. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: As written. And as far as any discussion on the GMP, I would prefer that be a separate - COMMISSIONER FRYER: Understood. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: - vote - COMMISSIONER FRYER: Okay. That's fine. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: - because I dont think it has any,thing to do with this amendment. Page 48 of 73 October 19. 2017 COMMISSIONER FRYER: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Diane? COMMISSIONER EBERT: Well, I agree. You're right, becausc of what we've heard in the past where we can either pay you, give you other land or something, it's gefting to be too much ofthe "we just take it offsite." I don't like that either. so - CHAIRMAN STRAN: Karen? COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I'm good with just voting on this the way it is. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. So I'd like to ask that the motion maker rephrase the motion and have the second affrm that the motion's phrased properly, and we'll take a vote on it. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I make a motion that we approve as written with the modifications as discussed today, this LDC amendment, as proposed and presented to the Planning Commission. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: I'll second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Motion made and seconded and, specifically, it does not mention any reference to the GMP, so it would not be part of the motion. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Right. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Dscussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor of the motion as read, signifr by saying aye. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Aye. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Aye. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: AYE. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Ayc. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 7-0. Jeremy, you're done. Mike, it's simpler. Youle all set. Okay. Thank you. That gets us to the last itern on today's agenda, which I need to have a discussion with this panel real quick on how you want to do - what you want to do for lunch. It would be nice if we could frnish up by two o'clock to help our court reporter, who is so patient with us most of the time. We have the AUIR to discuss. I'dliketo suggest we take a shorter break for lunch, say till 12:30. That's like 20 minutes, 23 minutes. Then we come back at l2:30, and we just focus on and get done with the AUIR with the point of getting done by two o'clock. Is that okay with everybody? COMMISSIONER FRYER: There will still be one or two agenda items. Are we going to push those? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. We do - we've got CCPC officers, the comparable/compatible discussion or direction to staff, and then your neighborhood information meeting stuff. So we will not make it by two o'clock Terri. I can't see that happening now. We've got to grve the court reporter a break for at least 10 minutes. So if we do that and we just keeping plugging away, I don't mind. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Keep plugging away. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. So let's take a break. We'll come back at 20 after 12 and resume the meeting. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: We could always talk faster. (A briefrecess was had.) MR. BOSI: Chair, you have a live mike CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Everybody, welcome back from the break. We are going to try to movo through the AUIR in an efficient manner. It's Item 9D. It's PL20170000596/CPSP-2017-1. Page 49 of73 October 19, 2017 This is a Comprehensive Planning Department's presentation. Mike Bosi's here. I have -- and I'm sure the Planning Commission has read all ofthe - let me see how many pages this great little chaptcr was - all 262 pages. I'm going to ask, unless someone on the Planmng Commission specifically requests it, that the departments that are here not make a formal presentation, assume we've read it, and we'll focus on the questions. There are new people herc, fust time around, and if they want presentations, we will go forward with that. We are pressed for time, so as some ofthe planning staffhas leamed, short responses and staff presentations are sometimes greatly appreciated. Mike, it's all yours. MR. BOSI: Thank you, Chaiman Skain. I appreciate those comments. Mike Bosi, Planning and Zoning Director. What we are here to review is your Annual Update and Inventory Report as well as your update to your Capital Improvement Element. This is a process that is unique to this county in the sense that we not only Lalk about the facilities that make up our concurrency rnanagement system, which are our Category A facilities, but also our Category B facilities such as libraries, EMS, law enforcement, govemme[t buildings, which are non-regulatory in terms of your concurrency management system, but also important to the commtmity, and that's what this document is designed to do. It's designed to protect the sense ofplace that Collier County has developed. Every single one of these infrastructure providers have a level of service associated with them, and those levels of service are designed to be maintained. The things that have attracted our residents to Collier County, the services that arc available, this document ensures that those semces will be maintained at a level that they're familiar with and what attracted them to the county in the first place. And how do we do that? Well, like I sard, weVe identified a level of service for each one of our providers, and those level of services are compared against our population. And it's our permanent population growth that maintains the rate in terms of u,hich we have to provide for the expansion of our infrastructure in our services. And ifyou look at the visualizer, the last six years have provided a pretty consistent, steady predictable rate of growth, the lowest being 1.65 percent annual up to the current 1.97 percent. That just under 2 percent level of growth has allowed for a predictable, steady, measured expansion ofour population, and the systems to service that population has followed suit. Within the - within the capital improvement elemenl the AIJIR today, you're going to see the major projects, and I'm going to give just an overview of the major projects that arc coming through. Within your transportation component, in FY'18, Golden Gate Boulevard from 20th Street to Everglades Boulevard, and then starting in '20 - or in '21, the Vanderbilt Beach extension. Those arc thc two major components. There's other projects that are identified, but those would be considered the major. From your stormwater management section, your Golden Gate City, Naples Park, and the Goodlettc-Frank area are the three major areas of improvement. And for your park system, I think most people would be familiar with the sports -- sports complex that is being proposed within CityGate. It's a 1l0-acre addition. Within law enforcement, you have two substations, District 1 and District 5, that are in need of replacement for their existing facilities because ofage. Ard then within libraries, we have our traditional yearly library collections which were individual materials, books, DVDs, and other materials. And then, finally, EMS. EMS has tkee proposed new substations: Hacienda Lakes, DeSoto Boulevard, and Immokalee and 951. Those are the major projects that are contained within the books. Also within the book, and the Planning Commission in the past has found value within it, is the usage, usage ofour library facilities, of the parks, ofthe other facilities that gives us some documentation of how well in the - how well the general public is providing access -- is provided access and scrvices related to the infrastructure provider. And that helps evaluate whether you think that the level of service that we have established for any one ofour infrastruch-ue providers is adequate or maybe needs adjustment. Page 50 of73 October 19, 2017 And that's another thing that we ask the Plarming Commission: To review the proposal not only for the projects but whether we think that the level of service that we're providing to the community is at an adequate length - or an adequate level. With that, that's my overview of the book. We do have five pages that have been changed out from the books that you received. And Corby will just give a real briefdescription. The changes are relatively minor, butjust for clarity's sake, wejust wanted to show that within Page 56 on the stormwater management system, it was a revised map to update the basin boundaries to coincide consistent with Figure 5; solid waste disposal facilities, Page 94, it was a slight description change in terms ofthe hazardous management - hazardous waste and collection; and then coastal zone had tfuee pages,214,215, and216, in which the only change that's substantial is adding funding to the resiliency program. It doesnt alter or affect any of the projects or pmposals being put forward, but we're just updating documentation of some of the information that's contained within the individual sections. As the Chair had stated, we had no planned presentations from any one ofour providers, but we're here to arswer any questions the Plaming Commission would have on any ofthe sections or any ofthe content of the AUIR. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And I would like to start the AUIR in order. That seems - there's 262 pages and, basically, if we take each element in order for questions from the Planning Commission, that might be the most expeditious way to get through this. And so, Mike, I think either you or I, the first facility is transportation, and it's on page -- electronic Page 14. So let's start with that. And if anybody has any questions from the transportation aspect, now would be the time to bring it up. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: I just have a gereral question. Has Irma affected the AUIR at all? MR. BOSI: Irma has had no bearing upon the AUIR. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Okay, thanks. MR. BOSI: Other than it was supposed to be heard October 5th. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Quick. MR. SCHMITT: How about - in follo\t'up to that question, how about capacity at the landfill? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That will be under the solid waste discussion. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: fught. But he asked a general question. I would assume there would, as an impact in the landfill. But we'll discuss it when we talk. MR. BOSI: Well, has Irma affected any of the facilities covered within the AUIR? Most certainly. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Yeah. MR. BOSI: The projects being proposed within this AUIR will have no material effects from the storm. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Okay. But it will -- MR. BOSI: Understood, yes. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: If it impacted the projections that we show for the landfill or some other things, then we ought to at least be aware of that. Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody else on hansportation? COMMISSIONER EBERT: No. Could I make an observation" though? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It's uP to You. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Coming down Logan between Vanderbilt Beach Road and Pine Ridge Road, I believe the county has asked the peopte to put the debris out on Collier County property. That is an areathat floods. And I see rhat most of the people threw it right in the swale. And that krnd ofbothers me because that area floods anl,rxay. And they just plain just tkew it out there, and they're blocking the swale area. Ifs just an observation that I've seen recently. iUenUeN S1nefN: Well, which segues nicely into stormr ater management. Does anybody have any transportation? Go ahead, Ned.'COMi'IISSIONER FRYER: When we hear applications for amendments of various kind, PUD amendments and the tike, the capacity of the adjoining roadways is a very important consideration and, in Page 5l of 73 October 19. 2017 fact, I think therc's a provision in the GMP and other documents to the effect that the Board of County Commissioners cannot approve applications unless certain criteria are met relating to the AUIR. As we -- when we hear these applications, fiequently neighbors and property owners and others will stand up and, anecdotal though it might be, they nonetheless will report to us the extreme difliculties they have in morning nxh hour and the like and the bottlenecks that occw adjoining these properties. My question is, is there a way, Mike, for your people to capture and evaluate thcse comments that arc made in relation to the AUIR? I know that you capture and evaluatc it in relation to the individual amendment that may be before us, but what about the broader thing, the AUIR? MR. BOSI: And at the remning level, there is a courtesy concurrency check against roadways, against all public facilities. And when the transportation planner reviews the individual PUD, they will check the influence of the trips that are being generated by that project against the available roadway capacity ofall the roads that wrll be influenced by that prqect to extend out towards which it will reach. And then there's an evaluation as to whether it's going to crcate a level-of-service issue related to any one ofthose individual roadways. And if there is, then that's when they will let the Planning Commission know and the Board of County Commissionen and the developer know that a proportionate-sharc arrangement would have to be madc to address whatever deficiency that that project would create against any one ofthe systems, in this case being the road system. COMMISSIONER FRYER: That's proJect specific - MR. BOSI: Ycs. COMMISSIONER FRYER: - and I'm glad that happens. My question, though, is broader: Is there a point ofconnectivity between the comments that we hear from residents aad neighbors in these project application meetings and the overall AUIR planning process? MR. BOSI: Oh, absolutely. COMMISSIONER FRYER: It's not project specific? MR. BOSI: No, absolutely. The AUIR establishes the checkbook for the road system for any one given year. And the projects that are being proposed dictate what the volume capacity is for any of the road systems, any one ofthose segments. So when a project comes in, it's reviewed against the overall system that's established by your Annual Update and lnventory Report. So it establishes the maximum amount of trips that are available withrn any one road segrnent, and then that project is reviewed against that overall system to see how it hts in terms of its capacity. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I'm maybe not asking this question properly, and I apologize. I'll try one more timc. When 100 neighbors come in on a particular project and say that the traffic at a certain point on Logan or Vanderbilt or someplace else is just hideous in the moming and they ofler time fi-ame - they say it takes mc an hour and a halfto do this and this and this, is there - is there a point of connectivity between these comments and the AUIR proccss? MS. SCOTT: For the record, Trinity Scoft, Traruportation Planning manager. First and foremost the level of service that you see in your AUIR is based on the p.m. pcak. So when we hear things come up from the developments, fiom the neighbors, certainly we go baclg we take a look at it, and then they might become specific projects that come under line items that are within the AUIR, such as our traffic operations folks. So we certainly take that feedback back and take a look at it, because most of the time the issucs that you're hearing about fiom the neighborhoods are operational in nahrre and not capacity in nature. Tum lanes need to be lengthened, tum lanes may need to be addeq signat timing may need to be adjusted. So, yes, we take that back to our traffic operations folks and look at that. And it's analyzed again when they come in dunng their SDPs. COMMISSIONER FRYER: That does answer my questions, I thin! that there is connectivity between the broader AUIR process and individual complaints or comments that are made before us at prqect meetings. Thank you. CITAIRMAN STRAIN: okay. Anybody else have any transportation-related questions or Page 52 of 73 October 19, 2017 conrments? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: [,et's move on to stormwater, which is on Page 29 of this packet, and it goes to about Page 56. It's more detailed this year than it has been in the past. I do appreciate that fiom the Stormwater Management Departrnent. Does anybody have any questions about the stormwater section of this particular presentation? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAN: I do notice there's a deficit. Go ahead, Joe. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: The only question I had, and I didn't see it in this, there is a discussion of a stormwater tax, but that's not included in any of these analyses other - there is a deficit. That deficit is noted, but there's no calculations which anticipate any type ofa tax revenue, stonnwater management tax, I guess, or -- MR. BOSI: Yeah. The stonnwater section has not been -- does not try to anticipate whether the Board of County Commissioners will adopt a stormwater utility or green tax, as it's been termed. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And my comment was similar to Joe's. I noticed a deficit shows up there. I notice that we didn't go to impact fees mostly because the stormwater systems that need to be repaired are thosc that are existing. We cant use impact fees for those. And I noticed that it hasn't been termed a tax in which the presentation was made to the Boaxd. It's a stormwater fee. How do they word it? Utility - yeah. They purposely said, oh, no, it's not a tax. Well, any time govemment charges, it's a tax. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Thank you. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: But, regardless, Amy, I don't want to get elaborate. Just, was it considered a tax, or did you guys word it as something else? MS. PATTERSON: No, specifically it's a fee. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thals what I thought. MS. PATTERSON: Stormwater utility fee. And the reason is the nexus, similar to impact fees. I know that there are people of the opinion that impact fees are a tax; however, in order for them to be a fee is because ofthat benefit relationship between the person that pays the fee and what they receive from the fee. MR. KLATZKOW: It's a disguised tax. CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh. And I - you know, there's so many of them, I just - this is another one to add to the pile, MR. KLATZKOW: That's what it is. CHAIRMAN STRAN: So that's all I needed to know. Thank you. MS. PATTERSON: No problem. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is there anybody else that has any stormwater questions? Stan's resisting. He's holding back. The next item on Page 56 is county water/sewer district potable water system. I don't know if anybody has any questions on that. I dont have any. And then we move to the county water/sewer district wastewatsr treatment system. I think the only issue there is, can someone explain what the issue was dwing the hurricane with the issue of the lift stations not operating? we didn't have generators. we had some problem with the DEP because we didn't report something. Its just like to know how that factors into any needs of the upcoming year so we don't have this cvery time we have a hurricane. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Can I explain something? CHAIRMAN STRAN: Sure. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: After the tast hurricane before this, we did a little calculation, and when you sum up the volume of all the pipe, all the manholes and the lift station and the number ofpeople that are on each system, within 48 hours -- and you can correct me on this -- almost every one of them fills up totrlly. Page 53 of 73 October 19, 2017 And what happens is the road has a hump and sump design, so the sewage starts coming out the manhole at the lowest point, which is always thc point nearest the catch basin. It goes right down the road and through a very short shetch ofvalley gutter because some ofthese systems are, you know, halfofa mile Iong. It finds the very lowest catch basin, and it goes down into the catch basin and right into a retention area or a lake. I would stake my professional reputation that almost all 800 ofyour systems on lift stations probably passed somc sewage during the event, and the only ones you know about are the ones that were reportcd. Now, during Charley they were reported - well, they were fixed quickly because most ofus were without power only about four days. This time I was without power 12 days. You guys had a generator out at our site for a long time. The original concept after that was you would take so many generators, and even though it takes two days to fill up, it only takes about tkee or four hours to empty the system down. So you would use the gencrator to empty it down, and then you would move the generator to the next area, and you would pump that one down, and you would have enough manpower in generators to keep doing that. But that - I don't think that took into affect 800 lift stations and the manpower that it would take with the 24-hour shift, tkee times the number, you know, that would work any time dunng the day. So everybody was simply overwhelmed. In our division - and they say there's no answer to that, and theyte probably right. But in our subdivision, we've been looking at the Generac propane powered genemtors. Unless we can get some kind of liquefied natr,ral gas or natural gas piped in, we were looking at the generator - the Generac generators, which in the order of -- we have a one-phase station and a thre,e-phase station. They're both less than 10 kilowatts, and we could put in two Generac stations for S75 a rmit ifwe prorated it among everybody that lives there. We could service ourselves and actually pump our sewage off site. The problem is, you're manifolded with a bunch ofother stations that might not be doing that, and our sewage might be coming out somebody else's manhole, which we may not care about, really, but somebody does. So that's the bottomJine problem. It is just there are too many systems, and you have to do something or else you can tum offthe water, which is not a great idea. So I will let you talk. Did I say anything wrong? CHAIRMAN STRAN: Before you answer, though, apparently I must have misphrased my question, because it wouldn't have taken all that information to answer my question. We had a whole bunch of lift stations that weren't fired up with generators as they may have planned to have been. I don't know what the reason was, but I didnt see any money in here that specifically said we're going to need more gcnerators and here is the number. Are you going to buy more generators? Are we going to havc this problem again? Thafs all I need to know. MS. JOHNSSEN: I'm Beth Johnssen, the Waste Division director. The answer, or the short answer is yes, we will be purchasing some morc generators; however, putting a generator on every lift station isn't the ultimate solution, as Stan pointed out. I couldn't have explained it any better than that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, I wouldnt expect it to be. I just wanted to make sure that : if we weren't as prepared as we could be, as your department figured into its budget, to be better prepared by whatever needs we need to be by the time this budget becomes realized. MS. JOHNSSEN: Well, we can always do things better. So, again, I think going into this after-action review and the workshop, we need to look at maybe a multi-pronged approach where the solution isn'tjust a generator at every station. It's the management of that and maybe some policies in place, how we're going to address that in the futr:re. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And I think Stan,s - one of the points he brought up, I thrnh is well understood, that you don't need a generator full time at each lift station. you need to rotate them. So my assumption was just that because of the storm, you all have now taken into effect where our deficiencies are, and some ofthis budget is going to hopefully resolve those issues for the next reason. MS. JOHNSSEN: Well, best management practices dictate normally 10 percent of your stations Page 54 of 73 October 19, 2017 should have an altemalive pumping supply of some sort. And we do currently have that. But, agairl it's a number ofpractices that need to be employed at the same time. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anybody else? COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: So we are taking Irma into effect, into account? CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: That's what it sounds like. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's the - Joe? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: But just - and, Beth, just to higblight. And, Dan, I think the email conversation you and I had, we were discussingjust back and forth about the AUIR. 98 percent of the coutrty was without power at a given point in time, which essentially says almost 100 percent ofyour system was down. MS. JOHNSSEN: Conect. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I just offer, we don't build the church for Easter Sunday. We build the church for what our normal capacity is. Using that analogy for lift stations, I think it would be cost prohibitive to try and plan for a 98 percent failure rate again and havtng generators. I know there's been very leamed individuals who have been providing input in the paper about what the county should do, but it is cost prohibitiye to try and have that many generators. MS. JOHNSSEN: Yes. sir. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I was involved when the federal response plan first came out in the Army Corps ofEngineers, and we had the emergency power. Part of that requirement was FEMA set up a facility outside of Atlanta for generators, but that was to service the entire cormtry and deploy generators. For you to stockpile - how many lift siations do you have? MS. JOHNSSEN: We have 800 - I believe it's 820 now. COMMISSIONER SCHMITI: So let's say you want to stockpile 200 generators. I mean, that's very costly, and there is a tradeoffbetween how long the system is down or do I have generators to power the system. And you guys can make that determination with the Board. MS. JOHNSSEN: Correct. And it really is more than just having a generator or thinking of it as a generator at every pump station, because just because we have a generator and weVe powered that station, when the system is surcharged, as Stan was indicating and ther€'s - the pipe is full, hydraulicsjust aren't going to allow you to continue to pump it. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Right. MS. JOHNSSEN: So it's a multi-faceted solution. It's not just going to be that simple. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: And I know you deployed - did they come fiom outside the county, the sewage tnrcks that were moving sewage? MS. JOHNSSEN: They did, yes. We have - COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I mean, you don't have that many in the county. MS. JOHNSSEN: No, we have a regular emergency response contractor that is committed to producing 20 truck within a certain time period. But we did, we deployed over I00 pumper trucks. They came from all over, as far away as New Jersey, to come down and work for us, and over 100 generators as well, so... CHAIRMAN STRAIN: OkaY. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I mearq it's a complicated issue, quite honestly, because - CHAIRMAN STRAN: Oh, I know. Just - all I wanted to make -- people - everybody has been aware there's been some issues with the lift stations. I just wanted acknowledgnent for the rccord that you all were - you realize that and your budget is being adjusted to accommodate where you can. COMMISSIONER EBERT: lt's called a fee. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's all I was looking for. MS. JOHNSSEN: Yes. We are looking at it, and it's a - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I didn't mean this. MS. JOHNSSEN: Again, it's something that's got to be cost effective as well, so'.' COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Beth? Page 55 of 73 October 19, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I wouldn't have doubted that a bit, but thank you. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Do you think our solution of installing two Generacs for $75 a unit is cost prohibitive? MS. JOHNSSEN: h tbe - COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: If everyone of our size were to do it. To me that's not - what would it take for us to be able to do that? Would you have to look at it? Would you have to review it? MS. JOHNSSEN: Certainly- Again, there's a number of stations that are private stations, and then there are the stations that we run as well. So, you know, as far as - I think there are a lot ofthings that could be changed as far as requinng, for instance, a generator or a certain response at private stations, and then ifa community is interested in - you know, I dont know whether it be an MSBU or assessing thcmselves for a generator, we could certainly help you with that. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Again, I go back to the point, like even you said, if we start pumping against the system thafs full, we're going to lbrce it out somewhere else. MS. JOHNSSEN: Conect. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: And unless the system systemwide is geared up for this, just doing one or two liftle changes is not - it could cause other problems. MS. JOHNSSEN: It could. You solve the solution (sic) in one community, but as you indicated, that the system's manifolded together, so you could just be forcing it into some other place. So it's not a simple solution, and there will be a number of things that could contribute to, perhaps, bettcr results next time. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOW SKI: Okay, CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anybody else have any questions, comments on wastewater? Did you have something you want to add? MR. FEY: Yes, if you don't mind me. I'm just expanding on what Beth said. For the record, my name is Eric Fey. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm not sure, what do you want to - I don't know if we have any more questions. MR. FEY: Well, it was related to your question. I just wanted to mention our community purnp station standards. We've got about l0 community pump stations in our ownership currently that have permanent standby power generation or permanent standby diesel pumps. And every new subdivision that comes il, or new development, is subject to these new standards that went into effect January lst of20l5. So the situation is improving as time goes or! that those permanent measures are in place. COMMISSIONER CHMANOWSKI: Do you think diesel is the way to go? MR. FEY: Well, Craig Pajer isn't here to speak to that, but we had quite a bit ofdiscussion about that when the community pump station standards were developed, that nahnal gas isn't reliable because they can lose pressure, and t}ten we dont have standby power. COMMISSIONER CHMANOWSKI: Yeah, but diesel means you have to keep the fuel so it doesn't start -- you know, wete a warm temperahfe down here. That fuel can start getting microscopic gowth in it and things like that happening. You still think it's the way to go; okay. MR. FEY: That's part of the operations ofthose pump stations. Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anything else before we move to solid waste? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Solid waste, Dan, I don't care what the letters to the editors say, I don't care about the emails I get. You guys are doing the bestjob ever, and we are so thankful you are in this county. COMMIS SIONER DEARBORN: Second. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: So, I mean, I'm so tired of hearing the complainers when all they've got to do is go across the water a little bit and see a count4r called Puerto Rico. They wa to see what life's really tough like? We've got the best we could ever have in Collier Cormty, and youte a big part of that, so thank you for all you and your departrnent does. Page 56 of 73 October 19, 2017 And I don't have any questions ofyou other than to point out on your second page, estimated life of the landfill, 50 years. When I got here, it was impending doom. We were looking for a place out east, and you've tumed it around, you and some of your predecessors, but mostly you guys. You guys just do a fabulousjob. I can't think of an),thing we could have -- I could say better about you. So thank you for all you do for Collier County. MR. RODRIGUEZ: For the record" Dan Rodriguez, your deputy department head, Public Utilities. Chairman Strain, thank you for your support and comments. And it actually truly is a team effort, not only the team members in solid waste who get out and inspect businesses - Delia's going to give you some - if we may, some facts about how many businesses we inspected this year, but also to truly preserve that landfill airspace and look at it as a commodity and a resource, bccause it is, because once that landfill's filled up, where do we put our waste. Most importantly, what are we doing to stop filling it up, and that's the recycling that she's going to speak to. But ifI may talk about those generators, deployments, lift srations, we all - I think we have to put it in. A penpective a Category 4 hurricane, the flooding that was here in Collier County, remember those lift stations, the 820, as Beth stated, they have manholes that lead to those lift stations and those pipes. They were sucking in water from the flooding. They're under water. So to manage the deluge that were in those pipes, according to our contractor, who's one ofthe biggest in the industries, this was the largest deployment of generators of any storm that they've been engaged with, and they worked Hwricane Katrina and Hurricane Sandy. So if you could understand the magrihrde that it tookto bring that under control, so it was a huge event, but thank you. With that, I'd like to introduce Delia Camacho. She is our interim solid waste director, and she prepared the AUIR this year, and she'sjust going to give you some facts, some really great milestones that we've achieved with recycling. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. MS. CAMACHO: Good aftemoon, Commissioners. Just briefhighlights on the recycling initiatives for the department. We were certified 66 percent recycling rate from FDEP this year. That's three percentage points higher than what we had last year. Currently, we've also dedicated staffto concentrate on the recycling -- commercial recycling efforts, and we've actually inspected 3,700 businesses last year. We intend on increasing those inspections this year to get that recycling going for the commercial businesses. We've also worked really hard to develop advertising camPaigns, digital ads for businesses. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Pull this a little closer to you. MS. CAMACHO: Sorry. We've also worked really hard to establish advertising campaigns for businesses. We did digitat ads, and we also did -- we've done a couple of mail-outs with our inserts with the Public Utitities billing, and we've partnered with the Tax Collector's Office as well to go ahead and get the word out, spread the word on recycling and what they need to do. Our initiatives continue. They will continue to grow. Programs will continue to be enhanced this year going forward to continue to raise that recycling rate and reduce the amount of waste that goes into the landfill. Oh, we also have the northeast recycling center coming on board hopefully by Febntary. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. Again, I appreciate all you guys are doing. I'msurewealldo. And it'sjust great. So - MS. CAMACHO: Thank You so much. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - anYbodY else? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I just want to ask - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead. COMMISSIONER SCHMTTT: Dan, did - and it has to do with debris pickup, since you already discussed it. Did you get approval for gated communities yet, or is - just out of curiosity. WeVe already cleaned up our street. i m taken care of. But I'm j ust curious, has that bean approved and - utR. noonrcuEZ: we've got the initiat approval, but we have to get some clarification. we put Page 57 of 73 October 19, 2017 the requcst in about three weeks ago. We got a response, and they stated we can go into private roads and gated communities. They didn't specifically state gated cornmunities; however, there's language in there that allows us to go into those, and we're getting clarification from them on that. And as soon as we get rt, wrthin the next weelg we'll plan to schedule those. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: There's gated community that have public roads. Typically they're funded by CDD bonds, so those -- MR. RODRIGUEZ: Correct. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: - are essentially public streets - MR. RODRIGUEZ: Correct. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: - which is different than a private street in a gated community, and sometimcs we dont delineate between the two. MR. RODRIGUEZ: That's correct. However, as you know, with the FEMA guidelines, there's about four different pieces of criteria that you have to meet. One, do you provide waste collection? Do you have fire, police sewice? Is access to the roadways free to the public or open to the public? That's the one area we want to get clarified from them. And we dont anticipate hearing a negative answcr, but we'll get back to you on that. But to answer your question about the landfill and the impact from Hurricane Irma, we are actually di verting the waste out of the Collier County I-andfill. The horticultural waste gets processe4 and working with FDEP, our contractor finds farmlands where they can use that for soil stabilizer. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Most of that is horticulture then? MR. RODRIGUEZ: That's correct. And the C and D material, large amounts that we got from Evergladcs City, Goodland, and Chokoloskee, that was sent to Okeechobee landfill. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Again, probably with the power offyou must have dealt with a significant increase in waste fiom refrigerators. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Refrigerators and freezers. MR. RODzuCUEZ: Absolutely. The week after the storm -- our normal collection per day - as you know, we do about 39,000 collections a day here in Collier County to get to the 115,000 residents. Our normal collection is about 340 tons a day. We were averaging 1,200 tons -- I'm sorry - 1,200 tons a day, which is substantial. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Well, the bottom line, really, it was an impact, but nothing to change your projections here? MR. RODzuGUEZ: No, absolutely. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Okay. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: I've got a question for Joe. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Yeah. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Our community went in, and we're going to get assessed quite a bit for vegetation removal. You mean there's people in here that are going to get lt for free? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: It sounds like it. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Oh, that's amoying. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Huh? COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: I said that's annofng. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Yeah, I agree. A lot of communities have cleaned up themselves. I agree. We did. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anybody else have any solid waste questions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Dan. Thank you, young lady. Appreciate it. Next item is on 94; it's the Collier County Capital Improvement Plan for the schools. This is an add-on. I mean, we added it on a few years ago, and Tom represents the school system, so I'm assuming if we have any questions, he'll be able to answer them and ifno! we'll move on to the next one. Does anybody have any questions on the school submittal? Tom, I'vejust got one. On the last page of the submittal, which is on page 100, it's a green map, you Page 5t of73 October 19. 2017 call out the schools in various locations in the county. You don't show Ave Maria's, and I was just wondering why. MR. EASTMAN: Ave Maria is a vacant site. And if vacant sites are included, it should be included. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But you do have a school out there. On the north end of the town, there's a middle school that I believe is operating. Is that - MR. EASTMAN: It's not a Collier Cormty public school that's operating there. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And it's not a charter school and it's not an other? See your chart, it says, elementary, middle, high, then charter and other. I just thought undo one ofthose categories all the schools would have been shown. MR. EASTMAN: I agree with you, and it's probably an oversight, but it is not a public school. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. I didn't know ifit was or not. MR. EASTMAN: And thank you for pointing that out. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I thought it was an "other," though. MR. EASTMAN: Yeah, it certainly -- it seems like every category would be covered, so I think it's an oversight. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anybody else, schools? That's - Page 101 is the county parks and recreation fucilities. Anybody have any questions on the county parks and recreation facilities? COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Mr. Chairman, my only comment is that I think our park are phenomenal. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And they are. I noticed that there's a deficit shown, and then there's five asterisk, reserve for fuhue growth. How does the deficit - what does that mean? And how do you factor in the cost of the fuhrre sports park that's going to come out of tounst development taxes? And I have one more after that. MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. Barry Williams, Parks and Recreation director. Thank you for your comment, and I appreciate your appreciation of our park, so... So I guess to answer the sports tourism question, the venue that's being constructed, as you mention, is financed by TDC funds. It is - we're porhaying it as being characterized as a regional park. It's got a trvofold purpose, you know: Certainly the sports tourism aspect, and wele seen tremendous gowth of that throughout our park system, North Collier Regional Park in particular, but it's also meant to serve as a resource for local sports tearns to be able to use the facility. So it does fall into the category ofrcgional park. I'm not sure I understood your first question. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, your deficit, is your deficit created because of the funding for that park at all? And if - how is that -- we've not had a deficit of that size before that I can recall. You have a 20 - surplus or deficit revenues, and it's on Page 113. MR. WILLIAMS: I'm trying to follow those five asterisk marks. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: They're the next page, and it says reserve for fuh-re growth. So I'm a little puzzled as to what all that means. MR. WILLIAMS: Iam, too, actually. Let me see ifl can look at my book and get a better handle on that. Honestly, I cant defend that. I'm not sure what that means as it r€lates to -- CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: The only reason it came to my -- I spotted it is up on top you have a five-year surplus or deficit, and it shows that you're good. So something seems awry there, and I just couldn't figure out how to explain it. So maybe when you get a chance you could drop me an email or drop us all an email as to how to explain it. MR. BOSI: And that may be on Comprehosive Planning's side in terms of a - if a - left over fiom a previously submifted summary page that they provided. That maybejust didn't get cleaned up,because, youte righi it doesnt have a context to any o relationship to the finances and the revenues generated. So we will most hat' CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. And if the pa moment, I've got acouple slides I want to put on, Barry, so I can explain to you my next question' MR. WILLIAMS: AbsolutelY. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: In 2b03 the Planning Commission recommended that we add a specific Page 59 of 73 October 19, 2017 section of the AUIR. COMMISSIONER EBERT: We don't see it on here, Mark. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well. how do I - COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: The page undemeath is still - the old page is still there. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We specifically added a section to the ALIIR to address county beaches, and there's a reason for this, and I'll exptain that. And it did. This is a table of contents fiom the 2003 AUIR. This is the page that talked about beach access facilities Category B, achrally formed a separate section. And this, most importantly, is a graphic showing how beaches can be managed and how we were looking out for beaches, because it is probably the biggest amenity we have in Collier County. Two thousand - and that was 2003. Everlhing looked good. 2004, the long-term plan, 2004, all of sudden for the first year, showed up a deficit in'24125, meaning wete not going to have enough beaches for the population. That brings me to the question. As you know, we constantly are working with the City of Naples to try to establish access to their beaches. They have 33 locations. We have - I don't know how many. I've got it written down somewhere. But I think it would help us in our discussion with them to show that we are keeping up with the growth in regards to beach access. Now, I know that it's incorporated into the parks and recs AUIR as another piece within the thing, but I think highlighting it and bnnging it out and making boards aware of it through these kind of graphics would better help our sih-ration. In 2004, the board at the time said, no, we don't want to show this anymore, and they discontinued it. I'd like to suggest that we bring this back up to this current board and see ifthey would like to have this additional information, because I do think it's valuable. That's what I wanted to show you. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So when we get frnished today and we vote on the AUIR, I would like to suggest that we have a recommendation to the Board ofCounty Commissioners to reinstitute a basis under which to show graphically and keep hack of our beach access against the growth specifically instead of lumping it in with all the other parks areas and trying to figure out, do we have enough beach access for the population that's here. It would help with tourism. It would help with everybody involved, so... COMMISSIONER FRYER: Do you want a motion? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: As we get towards the en4 I think that would be a better opportunity, so... And then, Barry, I'm not sure I have any.thing else. Does anybody else have anything while we're at it? COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Yeah. Just one thing for Barry. I use the north county park all the timc. I use all of your canoe and kayak access poinrs, and I think youle doing a fantastic job. MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, thank you very much, Stan. Thank you, sir. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: I have one - CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: I agree with that statement, so everything - the parks system is good. I think wete doing a great job with it. I just would like to make sure that politically we have the arguments we need to stand on our own with beach access and show that we're trying to keep up with it and it helpsjustif, our requests of the City of Naples to use theirs. MR. WILLIAMS: Absolutely. Yes, sir. CI{AIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anybody else have anything on parks? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That takes us to Page 115, capital improvement, CIE, element for Category A facilities. Are there any questions from the Category A facilities? An( Mike, is this yours? Is this - you do this? Who's - Corby? MR. BOSI: Yeah, Corby Schmidt - Mike Bosi, again. CHAIRMAN srRArN: How are we - and I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but the sports park, how would the sports park be factored into the capital improvement, CIE, element? The sports park is a, what, S70 million venture? So I just want to make sure that it, across the board, shows up where it needs to, Page 60 of 73 october I9,2017 and I didn't - I couldn't catch it in here, but I might have easily missed it, so... MR. SCHMIDT: IfI draw your attention to Page 13l, it does appear on that table. On the first line shows the amount there as pail ofthe spending, and then - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Excellent. Okay. That's what I needed to know, Corby. I just wanted to make sgre it was there. And there was so many pages of this, I just didn't catch it in detail, so that's what I needed to know. MR. SCHMIDT: All right. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody else have any questions about the Capital Improvement Element? We'll move on, then, to the Category B facilities. These are non-concurrency regulated, and the first one is the county jails, Page 132. I don't know if there's any questions fiom anybody on those -- on the county jail section. Following the county jail section is law enforcement fucilities. The only question I have, Mike, is on Page 140 under the law enforcement facilities, there's a current level-of-service standard referenced, and it's got a little asterisk one. Ifyou go down and look at what asterisk one says, it says, adopted level-of-standard service proposed to be revised. What does that mean? I mean, I know what literally it means. But what is going on with that? MR. BOSI: We are trying to translate the current level of service, which was ofiicers per thousand, to an actual population - to a population-based number that translates to square footage. So we're translating the population needed for additional officers to population needed for the square footage, because this is about capi tal improvement. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So they say 1.84 officers per 1,000, but the proposed level of service standard of .9, say, square feet per capita is the thing that's going to be revised? MR. BOSI: Yes. That's what's being proposed. The .9089 square foot per capita would be the level ofservice that is directly tied to the building space needed for the - for the law enforcement needs. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Because the - that's the only question I think I had, and I'm looking at the rest. Anybody else have anlhing while we're moving through this section? (No response.) CTIAIRMAN STRAIN: Then we get to county libraries, buildings and materials. This is one where we've had a longstanding excess space of libraries, and we still seem to. Anybody have any questions about libraries? (No response.) CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: After libraries we move into EMS, medical services. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I have something on that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Ned. COMMSSIONER FRYER: First of all, I'm very honored to be a member of the Emergency Medical Authority of the county, and I want to let everybody know what a fantastic job that ChiefTabitha Butcher and her staff do in providing EMS service to this county, and they ar€ to be commended. we are really the best of class in the United States as far as I'm concerned. So my thanks to Chief Butcher and her staff. My question hqs to do with concurrency. I would suppose it would come under the subject. And it relates to lire districts. You've got North Collier and you've got Greater Naples. Frequently they will have a fire station that was designed for and equipped for rural agriculhtral areas that dont have a lot of structural improvements on them. So they've got brush trucks, and they have water tenders' Then in comes a large residential project, and all of sudden the need changes to pumpers and possibly hook and ladders. My question really has to do with - and I know there's the impact fee sfuchrre ihat helps finance and Rrna tnat, Lut to what extent do the fire districts have a say in the development of applicaiions for pUDs and PUDAs and that ffi of thing? And have - in the pas! have they said, well, we just cant support this in the near term?" M{.'BOSI: Thank you. That's an excellent question, Commissioner Fryer. And it's - that is one of the things from the director of the Growth Management Plan lm most proud of is the regulatory process that we adoitcd for the Rural t ands Stewardship er.n *" *ttA area. The regulatory fabric that provided for Page 61 of ?3 October 19, 2017 Ave Maria allows for each one ofthose new towns and villages that are proposed to b€ developed, each one ofour infrastruchre sewice providers are at the table at the entitlement stage in terms ofhow does this affcct your level of service and what needs in terms of acreages would you need to be able to provide that level of service to expand to correspond to the amount of demand that's going to be associated with the households and as well as the commercial - the nonresidential square footage that's being proposed within those. So right now Rural Lands West is in the entitlement process going through the review. The North Naples Fire District has indicated that they are satisfied with their current locations to be able to handle the demands, but the next to\r.n that comes in, they may have to provide an acre or two-acrc site to be able to locate those qpe of sewices. So the regulatory process demands that each infrastructure service provider have a seat at the table before they can even move forward on their entitlement. So that's part ofthe process, and that's part of the review that goes through for each one ofthose new projects. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Great. Thank you. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: I just have a - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Go ahead Stan. COMMISSIONER CHMANOWSKI: About four or five maps down, I guess, there's a pink and blue map, shows advanced life support and basic life support only. It shows all ofthe Ochopee Fire District, which is places I go out into, and you are very far away from civilization. And it shows it as being 24-hour advanced life support, but Immokalee is a basic life support only. That doesn't seem right, because that's a heavily populated area. COMMISSIONER FRYER: That's no1 the case. Immokalee has all krnds of advanced life support. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: What does this mean on the map then? COMMISSIONER FRYER: I'm just saying youVe got Engine House 30, 3 I up there. You'vc got Collier EMS up there. The engine houses have -- well,I'm just telling you fiom what I hear at the Emergency Medical Authority, that you've got certainly basic life support, which is -- some would say it's more essential to service delivery in the first 10 or 15 minutes ofcare than advanced life support, and the folks on those pumpers and squads and rescue vehicles all have basic life support capability. And then you've got two ambulances that are also in the Immokalee area, and they bring in advanced life support and hansport capability. So I'm not saying that Immokalee is fully as served as it needs to be but, believe me, they've got basic and advanced life support. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: I'm just thinking it's probably befter served than if I'm out on the Tumer River. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Oh, yeah. COMMISSIONER CHMANOWSKI: Okay. It was just -. COMMISSIONER FRYER: And North Collier provides mutual aid all the time to the Immokalee area. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Okay, thanks. MR. BOSI: And, Stan, just for clarification on the map, what that is is there's - the program towards where the fire departrnents go tkough, at least one individual within their truck will have advanced life support capabilities. It's just Immokalee has an interim agreement wlth EMS to provide for that arrangement. That's the only thing. That's not to say that there's not ambulance services and advanced life support isn't available in Immokalee. It's just not provided on the individual fue huck itself. COMMISSIONER FRYER: And there are - if you include Ave Maria, there are achrally three advanced tife support ambulances: Engine House 30, 3l and 32 are EMS houses. COMMISSIONER CHMANOWSKI: I'm glad to hear that, because there are a lot of people out there. More than I usually see on the Tumer River. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Anybody else have any EMS questions? (No response.) CIIAIRMAN STRAIN: okay. Lefs move to counry govemment buildings. It's on page 178. This is a standard listing ofall the county assets every year, or at least building-wise. Any questions on that one? (No response.) Page 62 of 73 October 19, 2017 CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. The last two sections of the AIJIR are the Category C facilities, the coastal zone areas: Management, beaches and inlets. I don't know ifthere's any questions on that last section of the AUIR. COMMISSIONER EBERT: He left anywaY. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Gary waited all day and left. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Gary left. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Yeah, he did. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. I only had one question, and that's on Page 225, Mike. There's a little chart there, and in the - you've got to go up a bit; Page 225. Keep going. There's a colorful chart coming up. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Well, I don't know what you're - COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: You're in the appendix already. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. No, I'm on Page 225 out of 262, and it's right -- right after the beginning ofthe Coastal Zone Management stuff. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: The future attribute inventory? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, the future attribute inventory. That's what it's called. Mike, I can just walk down and put this under the - MR. BOSI: Let me try to put this on the visualizer. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Toggle down, I thirk. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Is it this? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, that's that one. COMMISSIONER EBERT: 253 inthe book. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh, ils 225 electronically but 223 in the book. I'm sorry. I only have it electronically. There. Oh, keep going. There. Youjust passed it. Gobaclq 253. You're going the wrong direction. Keep going. Keep going. Five more pages. We'll get there. One more. fught there. Okay. Second line from the bottom, see where it says Clam Pass Beach, 22-23, then it says beach parking spaces, 350. I go to Ctam -- Stan, you ever seen 350 parking spaces up at Clam Pass? COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: No. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. So what is it theyve got planned that's going to take - how are they going to - what does that mean? COMMISSIONER EBERT: Poor AmY. MR. BOSI: And I believe this is a section that Parks and Recreation provides. I could find clarification in terms of - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Would you, please? Because if you're going to put 350 parking spaces up there and that property was provided to us under the covenants with the Pelican Bay DRI PUD, I'm probably thinking that that's an interesting number for them -- next to the hotels and the people across the water. MR. BOSI: Ms. Pafterson believes that that may be a proposed future parking garage' CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. So you - wow, good luck on getting that' MR. BOSI: Well, I think you've highlighted the importance of beach access earlier in our pr€sentation. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. MR. BOSI: So, I mean, that would be a reasonable solution to how you provide for more access to the beach. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. They'd wipe out the kayak launch, that's for sure. I can't drive my kayak into a parkrng garage.' aoywuy, okay. I just was curious. That was my only question on that. I'm sorry it took so long to get there. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: And the proposed opening date is 20222 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, five years from now' COMMISSI0NERCHRZANOWSKI:I'ubeT5yearsold.whatamlgoingtodo?Jesus. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Bring your wheelchair' Page 63 of 73 October 19,2017 COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Yeah. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I don't have any other questions. Does anybody have any questions on the remainder of the AUIR? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Then I thinkwe have reviewed the whole AUIR. We have two basic items that may want to be included in any motion made to recommend approval of the AUIR with the following comments: Staffwill revisit and clean up the apparent discrepancy in the introductory page to the Parks and Recreation section; and that the Planning Commission would suggest recommending a separate graphic and accounting detail for beach access to be included within the Parks and Recreation section of the AUIR. Does anybody wish to make a motion and consider those, or how do you want to handle it? COMMISSIONER FRYER: I'll make the motion. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Go ahead. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ned made the motion, subject to those two -- COMMISSIONER FRYER: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- recommendations, and, Karen, you second it? COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All in favor, sigufu by saying aye. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Aye. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Aye. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Aye. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 7-0. Joe's closing up shop, so we've got to rush. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I'm getting ready. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Getting ready, huh. 't'I*That takes us to the end of our agenda. First item on new business is the confirmation of the CCPC officers. Every October of every year we ask for either confirmation or if there's -- someone desires changes, we look for that as well. I'm currently the chairman, Karen is the vice-chair, and Diane is the secretary. Does anybody either want to confirm that for the upcoming year or make recommendations that differ from that? COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: I make a motion -- COMMISSIONER CHMANOWSKI: I move the entire slate of officers remain the same. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Second. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion made and seconded. Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All in favor, sigu& by saying aye. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Aye. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Aye. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye. Page 64 of73 October 19, 2017 COMMIS SIONER SCHMITT: Aye. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Anybody oPPosed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 74. Thank you, all. I'll look forward to another year. You probably can tell I enjoy it. *+*The second item is 10B. We were talking about the comparable/compatible analysis brought up earlier today, and staff said they would seek direction from us. I would suggest that we want to ask them to visit the standards and criteria for comparabldcompatible analysis and provide this board with some recommendations so that we have definitive criteria to go forward, and even how - and as Ned had suggested, altematives tojust simply comparable/compatible, other issues that may be warranted, but I think we need to tighten up that process, that systenl and we would look to staffto start drafting something. Mike, does that give you enough direction? MR. BOSI: Oh, yes, Chair. Would you also like us to look at incrcasing the - about the notification, or was that just subject to the - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I think that would be part and parcel to the whole analysis, yes. I'm sorry. That's - that was part of our motion with that PUD, so certainly we want to consider it going forward. It -. unfortunately, it's more like a rezone than it isjust a - what it's put forth to be. If everybody's satisfied with that - COMMISSIONER FRYER: Yeah. I am. I just would like to - agairL at the risk of being repetitious - ask staff to consider the language consistent with permitted uses and compatible with the character ofthe neighborhoods, with the surrounding neighbothood. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thafs what we're looking for. And that brings us to old business. That's just dircction to staff. I don't think you need a motion to get direction. It's a consensus from this board. Did Joe leave? Yeah, he sure did. COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: No, not really. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: His bag's still here. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: +**Oh, okay. Old business, 1 1A. It's the discussion on the NIM process that originated by Ned, and Mike had talked with one ofthe advisory panels, and we'll hear from both parties today. MR. BOSI: Mike Bosi, Planning and Zoning director again. Two months ago we spoke with DSAC about the proposal to add the written lranscript ofthe meeting, the neighborhood information meeting, to be provided as part ofthe application package that would be submitted. The DSAC had an altemative recommendation. They had felt that having a court reporter at the - at the hearing would prohibit the public fiom being free in the questions that they ask. They had suggestedjust simply to provide a video rrcording of the neighborhood information meeting as a compromised solution. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I don't think - I certainly havent suggested that the court reporter be present. In fact, I think IVe explicitly said on multiple occasions that I agree that would have a chilling effect on the meeting. So my solution did not involve the physical presence of a court reporter at the NIM. CHAiRMAN STRAN: Then your suggestion would mean that the court reporter - the audio from the NIM would go to the court reporters, and they would transcribe it off the audio? COMMISSIONER FRYER: Correct. MR. EASTMAN: Excuse me. Does it even require a court reporter? I think - CHAIRMAN STRAIN: NO. MR. EASTMAN: -- we're just concemed with the transcript' CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, that could be, too, yeah. The problem -- and it's -- I'm not surc how to cure this part of it. If you rely on the applicant to do anythrng that is not done by an official professional, I cun assure yor, - becausl I fisten to the audios. To me the audios are what I use. I don't use the -- I like to see the appiicant's summaries, because if there's discrepancies between the summaries and the audios, it kind of makes me more alert to say, hmm, I wonder why that is' Page 65 of 73 October 19, 2017 But if you rely on the applicant to do the transcript, not done by a professional, you're going to get a summary like we have now, which is - then you have to rely on the audio to back that up. I don't have a problem with it as it is today, but that's only because I listen to the audios, and it takes, you know, the length of a MM to listen to the audio. So I'm willing to go whatever way this board's majority wants to go. I dont really have a dog in the fight. I'm still probably going to listen to the audios because it's easier for me than -. and I can get an accurate -- the tones on the audios help me understand the yehemence ofthe people involved and things like that. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Mr. Chairmarf may I just reiterate the reasons why I brought this up. The basics ofmy proposal, first ofall - and I've handed some materials out to show what language I would insert in the administrative procedures and where, and the insertions appear on Page 2 ofthe handout, but at least one ofthose insertions relates to the preceding page. ln any event, I call your attention to the fact that the administrative procedures - administrative procedures already require the making ofan audio or video recording, so that's already built in. I would ask, fotlowing Commissioner Ebeft's suggestion, which I think is a good one, that we call for higher-quality equipment than just someone's cell phone to be used to capture the audio, if it's audio we're going for. I also -- the essence ofmy proposal is, is that we ask the applicaat's agents to identifu themselves each time they speak. Others dont need to do so. And, finally, to require that a written transcript ofthe proceedings be made after the fact, not during the NIM, by a court reporter who, although would be engaged by the applicant and paid for by the applicant - and it's my understanding that the cost ofthat would be usually in low three figures, so it's not a bank-breaking operation -- but that the court reporter prepare a transcript, and it should be a more reliable thing if it's coming from better equipment. So my goals are to assure the adequacy and completeness of the NIMs, because I think the NIMs are cssential and us to hear what is said both by the proponents and by the neighbors and residents, and thcre to be proper atkibution particularly in the case of the proponent. From the standpoint ofthe proponent, what we want to try to capture are any representations that are made to the residents and any commitments made by the developer. I frnd the summary option that we see, and we saw in a couple of the materials or paperwork that was in front ofus today, I found those summaries to be woefully lacking in accuracy and completeness and, in some cases, I would go as far as to say that they revealed some possible degree ofbias. And so, although I take the Chairman's point that it's interesting to see when they conflict with listcning to the transcriptioq that that is a red flag, to be sure. The reason why I'd like it to have a written transcription is because I would prefer not to have to go in and listen to the audio. I commend our chair for his willingness to do so, and that he does so is a source of comfort to all of us, but I tbink we all, as commissionen, should be knowing exactly what was said. And ifthis doesnt pass, I suppose I will - and I know it's nothing that's up for vote today, but if eventually we cant get to a transcription being provided, I will find myself having to go in and listen to it the way the Chairman does, and I suppose I would urge others to do so because I think it's so important. And the only - and the caveat that we've acknowledged, we don't want to be obtrusive at the NIM. Video is more intrusive than audio, but the administrative procedure already allows for both. In some cases I can think it would - having the court reporter there, which I don't advocate, would be an intimrdator of the timid, but it also, I think, would facilitate grandstanding by grandstanders. So I - so for neither reason would I want the court reporter physically present. Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And I'll have some comrnents. And, Joe? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Let's go back to the purpose of the MM. And I disagree with the proposal. This is not meant to be a public hearing. It's not meant to be a public vetting of a zoning action. It was -- and the NIM was developed back when I was the adminiseabr, quite fiankly. And I'm not defending Page 66 of 73 october 19, 2017 the action, but I'm just stating the facts. It was a way to informally - and the term "informally" inform the public of what was being proposed and to allow for input. It has no statutory requirement. It has no mandatory requirement from a standpoint of anyhing that's said at that. It's simply meant to be nothing more than an informative meeting between the developer and the community to advise on what's being proposed. The public hearing process is \vhat we're going through when they come through the Planning Commission and the Board ofZoning Appeals or the Board ofCounty Commissioners. The NIM - I think it would be - in most cases NIMS are - could be as early as two years prior to even - a petition even coming before this board. And there are rcquirements to update those NIMs if, in fact, there's delays in zoning. But it was never meant to be any type of public meeting in regards to making frm cornmitments. It was meant to be nothing more than an information meeting and to provide an opporhrnity for the developer to receive input Aom the community prior to putting their package together and bringing it to the Board - to the county. A verbatim transcript, I thinh is - I would not support it. If you all feel that way, that's fine, but I think it's overkill, and it's - and it's just simply not required. What we're doing now, I thinh meets -- morc than meets the requirement of what the NIM was meant to be. COMMISSIONER FRYER: May I respond? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, and I've got some response, too. COMMISSIONER FRYER: The adminishative procedure is a document that is approved by thc County Commission and presumably, then, has the status ofan ordinance. So it really is the law that applicants are required to make an audio or video of the NIM. That's already there. So - and then the written surnmary, it is stated in the administrative procedrue, is to become part of the official record. And I share the Chairman's concem when I see discrepancies between the way the NIMs have been summarized in relation to the comments that the neighbors and residents come in and make. I can't believe that the residents and neighbors change their mind to such a degree, and so it makes me suspicious of the written summary. So, again, I think it's already part of the law, and I think -- and I dont doubt, Commissioner Schmitt, what the original purpose was, but I think it is an opportumty for us to inform ourselves better ofwhat is said particularly by the developers and concems that are raised by neighbors and particularly in the context ofthe people who complain that theyte not able to attend our meetings b€cause they occur out of season and they're only here in season. It would give us a chance to hear what they're saying. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Maybe I can shed some light on a couple of issues. First of all, since you were here, Joe, the NIM has been tightened up time-fiame-wise. I believe the NIM's now going to be within one year ofthe first hearing. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: One year. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And they cant be sooner than 15 days before the hearing. So that's - for example, Cimrs Pointe. That's why it got delayed. So that part's becn kind of fixed. The commitments made at the NIM become mandatory because this board pays attention to them, and the people rely on them, so we've made them - weVe made them adhere to the commitments they've made at the NIM. Now the audio/video, I think a video is far more intimidating than a court reporter. Terri's not intimidating. She's a smiley, nice person. She helps out all the time. But I think to help understand this, my concem's always been the added cost, and now that Ned's moved fiom what I thought onginally was the court rcporter in the room, which is intimidating, to being - just listening to the transcript and then taking it offthe transcript. Ifthe court reporter's not presert and can do the transcript at their leisure, the cost may be different And my issue's always been the cost. I think the accuracy of the outcome is important. And we have seen great discrepancies between summaries and audios.- So before we make a decision on this, maybe if staffcould solicit from the court reporting office we currently have a cost to do a transcript fiom an audio, and we can see if that is minor enough, maybe it's not so objectionable. Page 67 of 73 October 19. 2017 What do you thinlq Joe? COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Well, [et's go back to a period in time when we did not have verbatim minutes at the Planning Commission. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, you were here, and you helped us get them. I remember that. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: And for whatever reason -- I mean, I remember we didn't have it, and we all pushed to get the verbatim minutes. But we had an offcial, I guess, recordcr who summarized the notes, took the - there still was always a video, and there was always an audio of the meeting, and they typically would go back and sit and summarize. But it was an independent consultant or whomever that basically did that, not the developer. I think that is - that would be a suitable compromise rather than having verbatim minutes. I don't know ifyou've ever been to one ofthese meetings; they're free-for-alls a lot of times. Sometimes the developer comes in not well prepared. There's - sometimes there's skuchre to it and other times there's not. It is not a -- what I would call a struchled board meeting, per se, so I think it becomes -- if we want to move down that road, all we're doing is adding another alrnost a public hearing to the process, and that's not what it was meant to be. It was meant to be nothi[g more than an opportunity for the developer to say what they're doing and to get input. And I dont argue that there are commitments made, but those commitments usually aren't mandatory till they come before us and we cite them. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's right. But we actually use the data that's collected at the NIM to make those statements adhered to. And I think that's the piece that there might be some problem with. I don't have the problem as much because I do listen to the audios. But the problems there, if we rely on the summary statements made by the applicant, and Ned's right, they're somewhat biased, they're somewhat slanted. And so that's why I've always gone back to the audio. The only piece that bothers me about this whole thing, because ifyou make a quality audio and leave the room, the people in the meeting aren't going to know any different to it. So it's not going to impact them. The impact's going to be the cost of the hranscript, and that's the piece that's now missing, because an off-site hanscnpt, I would thint would be a lot less than one where we have to have thc cout reporter and all the equipment on site. I'd like to get that number just to see how much it's really a - if it's - if they say, well, it's $10 a page and there's only two pages or a short NIM, it's not a big deal, and it solves everybody's problem then. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Mr. Chairman, I spoke to a certain court reporter a month or two ago informally, and she told me, rough estimate - and I know she'll correct me if I'm wrong, that we're talking like 200, $300. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Really? Boy, I didnt know you got paid so much. Diane first and then Stan. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Well, some of the last ones that we have seen that have come beforc us - because everybody is talking over everybody, and all you hear is undiscemrble, undiscemible, you know, and you can't -- I mean, the whole thing was you might as well throw it away, because the equipment that I have seen at some ofthese is a little thing they hold up, and somebody in the back ofthe room is asking a question. It is not even picked up by that. And it is the developer's people putting these on that do not have the proper equipment. If we could hear everyone, that would make a difference. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: But understand, it's the developer's meeting. Normally only one person from staff attends that meeting, and that's typically the principal planner assigned to thar project. It is really a developcr's meeting. Now, if we want to make it a county meeting and actually impose certain more skict standards, Ijust don't think - there may be some utility to that, but, fi'ankly, it's - I'm sort oftom, because sometimes public meetings - the NIMs you'll have 200 people at a NIM, and 20 people show up on the Planning Commission. That's where my concems are, because it doesn't adequately represent what the feelings are in the commuruty. But, typicatly, by the time it gets to us, most of thL issues hive been resolved between the community and the developer. But I think a compromise for Ned would be to take - well, it would have to be certainly a quality Page 68 of 73 October 19, 2017 recording, and then somebody - an independent body convert that recording to a summary, not a verbatim minutes, but a summary of the meeting. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: SIAN? COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: One of my favorite NIMs I ever attended with George Vamadoe and Terry Cole, we leamed our lesson never to have a meeting in a place that serves alcohol. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I remember that. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: It's why I want a video of the meeting. I would prefer a video of every NIM, seriously. You get the tone of the meeting going on. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Just to see George. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Not anymore. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Erin's Isle, I remember that. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Oh, you were there. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I remember. Iwas--no. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: You heard about it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. First of all, there's three problems, I think. Number one is the quality - we need to have some language that insists on better quality material - better quality audio devices used for these NIMs. That would help solve a problem tremendously. We need to insist the representatives identifr themselves when they speak at the NIM, and then the county rspresentative, whoever that is, the planner, take some kind oflead in making sure people don't talk over one other and try to organize it a little bit if the facilitators of the applicant do not. Mike, you're looking skeptical at this. MR. BOSI: Well, the betterquality audio, that's what's - enforce - what is that? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well - MR. BOSI: Apple? Android? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Some of the audios, if you listor to them, you mostly get to hear the people by the front table, which is the applicant's team, because the device they use, like their cell phone, doesn't pick up the audio fiom way in the back ofthe room. MR. BOSI: Well, I undentand. I don't know how to create a standard for that. So is it, we get their audio in and then we make an evaluation as to whether that's acceptable or not. MR. KIATZKOW: No, you provide the audio equipment. I mean, staff members are there anyway. MR. BOSI: Okay. COMMISSIONER FRYER: The measurement of the quality of the equipment will be after the fact, and it will be based upon how many times it says "inaudible," "garbled." Right now it's far too much. COMMISSIONER SCHMITI: Jeff is right. I mean, we put the onus on the county staff to have somebody there and set up the audio. Now, we have to pass that cost offto the applicant. I mean, that's the -- COMMISSIONER FRYER: Well, the facilitato/s going to be there anyway. Under the current administrative procedure, a county facilitator must be present. MR. BOSI: That is not a facititator. The member there is to listen to -- in his role or her role, the planner's role is to listen - COMMISSIONER FRYER: It's called a facilitator in the ordinance. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: But they're not a facilitator' MR. BOSI: It may be labeled a "facilitator" in the ordinance -- COMMISSIONER FRYER: But it is labeled. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. I think we've talked about it quite a bit. I think there's room to improve what we're doing at the NIMS. Im not sure this board has the consensus that the improvement requires a formal transcriPt. So I'd like to tum to anybody here that's willing to take a stab at what we should do in relationship to this response, whether it's accepting it as it's stated or modifring it'' I don't have a dog in the fight, guys. I can tell you right now, I listen to the audio. It works fine for me. It doesn't, apparently-, work foi everybody, and that's also - that's fine for thern. So we just simply need to find a solution.^I'll go ilong with what the majority wants at this point. Im comfortable with that. Page 69 of 73 October 19, 2017 COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I gucss the question is, what's the objective? The objcctive is to - CHAIRMANSTRAIN: Clarity. COMMISSIONERSCHMITT: Forclarity. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Clarity and cornmitrnents and representations. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Then do we shift the whole purpose from this becoming a county meeting and not a developer meeting? Because right now it's a - the onus is on the developer. It's their meeting, meeting with the public. CHAIRMAN STRAN: And I don't think we should shift it to the county. The county's got enough tax -- spending enough taxpayers'money trying to get things through the system. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Agreed. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So I'd prefer not to do that. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I just would - and I think -- I'm sure, Joe, you're exactly right how it started, but then along comes this administrative procedure and it says, after the NIM is completed the appficant will submit a written summary of *re NIM and any commiknents that have been made to the assigned planner. These commitments will become a part ofthe record ofthe proceedings, be included in the staffreport for any subsequent review and approval bodies, and be considered for inclusion in the conditions of the approval ofany applicable development offer. I'm not sure that it's still - it still belongs to the developer. I think it belongs to the county, but I'm not sure that that distinction really makes a difference. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I think those pieces you just discussed are the responsibility of the principal planner there to caphfe that information to make sure that it's in the staffreport. COMMISSIONER FRYER: But their capturing of it, I think, is occasionally biased. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Wcll, I meant the planner that attends, typically, they're -- when you do the staff report, typically, those kind ofthings are supposed to be made - codified or somehow made aware in the completion of the staff report. MR. BOSI: Our planners are present at the meeting and are instructed to record and note down any cornmitments that are made by the developer. That's what the role of the planner is supposed to ensure; provide questions in terms of -- answers in terms ofhearing dates, processes, things like that that the applicant couldn't provide for. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: And typically they provide the public, if there's any questions on process. MR. BOSI: Yes. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: What the law requires, what the code requires, or any of those questions regarding process or procedwes that the county stafftypically will answer. I don't know. I just - I really don't want to see this become the resporsibility of the county staff. Because when - and I've seen them. There are some bad ones. They'll come in, the audio visual doesn't work, and then they'll get up and attempt to give the presentation. And I can describe one, but I wont name the development, but it was so poor, the people left saying this was atrocious, and they should have been required to have another NIM after - following it because -- but it was the developer who really did a poor job. It wasn't the county. CHAIRMAN STRAN: I think were somewhat probably not as supportive of this as a whole as needed. Rather than jump into deciding on this cold today, Mike, could you put together a list ofcntena for the staffwho attend the NIMs that they must do and let us critique that. For example, assure that the machine used to record the audio and/or video is adequate for the job. I mean, basically a cell phone's not going to do it; that they announce to the public that they have to idcntifo - or the applicant has to identifu - his team has to identi$, themselves every single time they speak so we know - if we hear the recording, that we know who it is that's speakrng. MR. BOSI: Are you asking mc to put together a list of what we should be asking for? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes. These are things you should be looking for. MR. BOSI: But this - some of these suggestions weren't - I didn't have the problem with the meeting, with the process of the NIM. It was introduced from the dais that they ihought that because of the Page 70 of 73 October 19, 2017 issues with the transcripts, they wanted a full representation ofeverything that was being said to be able to identiff the people involved within it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. MR. BOSI: It sounds like youte asking me now to develop recommendations for how we can improve? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No. I thrnk that staff in some cases may need a little more training and guidance on what they're supposed to do at a NIM. For example, Ned was 100 percent right. The collier Cognty staffplanner assigned to attend the pre-application meeting, or designee, must also attend the NIM and will serve as the facilitator of the meeting, black and white. MR. BOSI: And I'll agree, we don't do that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I know. MR. BOSI: We don't. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm telling You - MR. BOSI: We've taken a role -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - why dont you create some criteria in which you'tl do that? MR. BOSI: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's all I'm suggesting. And bring it back to us, and let's start there. And then ifthat's starting to fail, maybe we'll look at coming back and looking at a t-anscript - MR. KLATZKOW: Look, the irony is the administrative code is written by staff, okay, who then tfuows it on the consent agenda for the Board's approval. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. But staffjust says they're not doing it. MR. KLATZKOW: Yeah, but staffwrote it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It doesn't matter. To fix this, I'm suggesting - COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: You find that ironic? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: - maybe if we try a step-by-step approach, create the criteria by which the staff attendee to these NIMS must be - what he must be doing or she must be doing, let's see how that works for a little bit, Ned, and then we'll revisit this ifit's still a massive failure. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I'm fine with that. I'm just going to say, in the meantime, I'm going to try to listen to each tape, and I'm going to call out developers whose summaries are unfair in relation to that tape. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I thinK thAt'S fAiT. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Good idea. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. And if we start seeing - if we then prove there's too many problems and it's gefting prolific, we can go ahead and institute another step. COMMISSIONER FRYER: I'm fine with that. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Can I make one last suggestion? Mike, if you would, get input from the DSAC as to what they think of this proposal. Because I'm not saying I would support ifthey're -- but Im interested what the development community thinks, because it's their meeting if we want to change that. And I - the other thing is I think we can make it very clear that they have to hirc - we could put that in the administrative procedures that they have to hire a firm to come in and do a recording, an audio. There's companies out there that do that for a living. And we could tell thenU you know, we're not going to take a small iPhone recording. It's got to be suitable recording, microphones set up, and it's got to be controlled. We can stipulate that. CHAIRMAN STRAN: But I think - Diane, did you want to speak before I do? COMMISSIONER EBERT: No, no. CHAIRMAN STRAN: Okay. Okay. Well, I was - COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: I'm good. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. I'm trying to think. There's something else I wanted to mention, Mike, and I just lost it. Oh, well. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: I still want video' CHAIRMAN STRAIN: HUh? Page 71 of 73 October 19. 2017 COMMISSIONER CHMANOWSKI: I still want video. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Let's see how this works, and maybe we can avoid having to get - oh, and if arybody needs the NIM audio, Judy can - they're all filed at the county. I mean, they're supposed to get copies of them. I get them in CDs and put them in the system, but I'm swe that the planner can put them into the CityView or give them to Judy, and they can be distributed to the Planning Commission members. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Yeah. But, see, it's not just distributed to us. CHAIRMAN STRAN: They're just emailed. Well, theyte just emailed. It's an audio filc is all it is. COMMISSIONER FRYER: It might fit on an email as an image. I don't know how large - maybe it wont. Well, may I have the same opporhmity of access that our chairman does? And if you could send me a CD with this with my meeting materials, that would - then I could do it at home, which would be great. MR. BOSI: Yeah. We normally provide the meeting materials by flash drive, but we can do it by CD if that - COMMISSIONER FRYER: I thought you said CD. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I get them - thc applicants submit them in as CDs, but to dlstribute to the Planning Commission, they would probably come in the format with your other files. So it would probably be on your flash drive. You don't need it on a CD. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Like a wave file or an MP4? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: MP3, I think it is, or MP4, yeah. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Okay. That's fine. Good. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's fine. The CDisntavideo CD. It's anaudio CD. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Understood. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Well. that's what I need to do. I don't have the other. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So fiom now on, if you can distibute NIM audios with the packages to the extent they're available, then we're good, right? COMMISSIONER DEARBOF.N: Is it all or none, or do some of us have the option to say we don't want that? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You don't have to have it. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: I dont need it. CHAIRMAN STRAN: I'll have - who's our represertative that does our packages an)more? Is it still Judy? MR. BOSI: Still Ms. Puig. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: At some point I'll let her - I'll ask her ifshe couldjust poll the members and see who wants it, and then she can just prepare it for just those that want it. This has been confusing enough. Are we done? MR. BOSI: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: With that, there's no members of the public here, unless Jamie wants to comment, which I dont think he does. Is there a motion to adjoum? COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Motion to adjoum. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Motion to adjoum. CIIAIRMAN STRAN: By Diane, seconded by Parrick. All in favor, signifr by saying aye. COMMISSIONER CHRZANOWSKI: Aye. COMMISSIONER FRYER: Aye. COMMISSIONER EBERT: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye. COMMISSIONER SCHMITT: Aye. COMMISSIONER DEARBORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We're out of here. Thank vou. Page 72 of 73 October 19, 2017 +**+'a*rt There being no firther business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjoumed by order of the Chair at 1:51 p.m. ATTEST DWIGHT E. BROCK, CLERK These minutes approved by the Boar 6orll - lb-ll ,as presented COLLIER COTINTY PLANNING COMMISSION or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT, INC., BY TERRI LEWIS, COURT REPORTER AND NOTARY PUBLIC. Page 73 of 73