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CLB Minutes 09/17/2003 RSeptember 17, 2003 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida September 17, 2003 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson Michael Baril David L. Beswick Syd Blum Eric Guite' Richard Joslin Ann Keller William Lewis Kenneth Lloyd ALSO PRESENT: Thomas Bartoe, Licensing Compliance Officer Robert Zachary, County Attorney Patrick Neale, Counsel to the Board Jim Hoopengarner, Licensing Compliance Officer Page 1 03/~/2016 05:02 F,~X ~001 AGENDA COLI~IER.COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: September 17, 2003 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING: (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX VII. Vlll IX. X. ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: Iii. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: July 16, 2003 V. DISCUSSION: VI. NEW BUSINESS: Ronald G. Landon - Request to qualify a second company. Robert E. Sweeney, Jr. - Request to qualify a second company Frank R. Ragan - Request to qualify a second company. Oscar O. Escaton - Request to be granted a Tile & Marble license. OLD BUSINESS: PUBLIC HEARINGS: Arthur Wayne Francis - Contesting Citation #1529 issued for no lile license. REPORTS: NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 September 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me call to order the meeting of the Contractor Licensing Board of Collier County for September 17th, 2003. And for all of you -- I get tied of reading this sentence here, so for all of you that are in attendance, if you wish to appeal a decision of this board today, you will need a verbatim record of all the proceedings that take place and the testimony involved. Roll call, starting to my right. We have three new members. MR. LEWIS: New member, William T. Lewis. MR. BESWICK: New member David Beswick. MR. BLUM: New member, Syd Blum. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MS. KELLER: Ann Keller. MR. BARIL: Michael Baril. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to welcome all three of you to the meeting; appreciate having you on board. Appreciate you giving your time and working with us. Also, any additions or deletions to the agenda, Mr. Nonnenmacher? MR. NONNENMACHER: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. For the record, my name is Bob Nonnenmacher, contractor licensing supervisor. And no, sir, there are no additions or deletions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I need an approval of the agenda. I need a motion. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MR. BARIL: Second, Baril. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor, aye. (Unanimous votes of aye.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Also, approval of the minutes, if Page 2 September 17, 2003 you've had a chance to look those over. They were given to you prior to the meeting. I need a motion to approve the minutes of the last meeting. MR. BARIL: Move to approve the minutes of the July 16th Contractor Licensing Board meeting. MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have no discussion, so Mr. Nonnenmacher, we'll go right into it with new business. MR. NONNENMACHER: Okay. For those of you who are applying for second entities or licenses, if you are approved by the board, you cannot pick up those licenses today, because we have all the paperwork here. So you will have to pick them up tomorrow. First one is Mr. Ronald G. Landon, request to qualify a second company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need to have you sworn in, Mr. Landon. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Landon, in a nutshell, tell us who, why, what, when and where. MR. LANDON: I am Ron Landon, I'm a contractor, I've been a contractor since 1984. That was in Maryland. I moved to Monroe County in '93, shortly after Andrew struck. I bought a few properties, remodeled them there. I was in Monroe County as a contractor for -- or until mid to late '99 1 bought some property in Naples. Several of my friends are golfers over here at Lely Resort. I liked Lely, so I decided to buy some property there and come over to Collier County to build. I've been building since then. Mr. Rodriguez, who I'm trying to qualify, has been working with me since late '99, early 2000. He has done my wallboard, stucco contracting -- subcontracting since then. And he's a personal Page 3 September 17, 2003 friend, and I'd like to qualify him in his business. He was previously qualified by someone I did not know, but I understand they formed a partnership in another business, and his partner didn't want him to qualify any other people in the business, and that's why I'm here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, and you -- what's your percentage ownership in this stucco business? MR. LANDON: It will be one percent. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One percent? Question, Mr. Neale -- what license do you hold? MR. LANDON: Landon. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What license do you hold? MR. LANDON: Collier County license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What kind of license? MR. LANDON: Collier County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What kind of license? MR. LANDON: Oh, residential contractor. I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, does that qualify for drywall and stucco? MR. NEALE: Something I have to look at. MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes, sir, it does. MR. NEALE: Specialty, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Specialty contractor? MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes. Naturally, if they're qualified to build a house, they have to be experienced from the ground up, so that includes everything. And then they have to sub out the major trades. But he could do drywall and stucco and painting and tile. So he's qualified to do any of the specialty trades. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, just the five majors he can't; is that my understanding? MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes, except for the swimming pool. He can do the shell. Page 4 September 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any questions of the members of the board? MR. JOSLIN: Being one percent owner, Mr. Neale (sic), you realize that your license could be in jeopardy if Mr. Rodriguez doesn't do what he's supposed to do in this business? MR. LANDON: Well, I'll be present on most of the job sites, and I'll be ensuring that things are to my satisfaction, as well as his. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you do understand you need to oversee the finances and everything else as well? MR. LANDON: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If any problems go on, we don't go to Mr. Rodriguez, we come to you. MR. LANDON: I understand. MS. KELLER: One other question I had was that he does not have check writing authority. MR. LANDON: Excuse me, ma'am, I could not hear you. MS. KELLER: It says that you do not have check writing authority for the company, for the new company; is that right? MR. LANDON: No, I don't think we checked that off. MS. KELLER: Okay. It says proposed. MR. LANDON: I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but we've got a financial responsibility form in there. I notice these Mics are not very hot. And it doesn't seem like his is even on. MR. LANDON: Sorry. I can't hear you either, hardly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I don't know what to do about them, except just try to get close to them as you can. MR. LANDON: My hearing's bad anyway, but -- MR. BLUM: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. BLUM: May I ask a question? Page 5 September 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sure, go right ahead. MR. BLUM: This is more for my edification, since I am new. Is it common practice or -- when you get a license, you have a contractor's license, my understanding was that the county recognizes one entity per license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's correct. But you can qualify one second entity. MR. BLUM: You can? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can't laundry list, but you are allowed to qualify two companies. And that's -- and every second entity qualification, which is the case here today, has to come before this board. MR. BLUM: So it's just one additional. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One additional, that's correct. Am I correct on that, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yes, you are. MR. BLUM: So when and if, in the off chance that Mr. Rodriguez runs into a problem with a consumer or another contractor, this gentleman doesn't have any liability because he's only a one percent owner, so all the liability problems are going to fall on Mr. Rodriguez. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, but our powers on the board will come back directly to him. We have the power to revoke his license, suspend it, put him on probation. We also have the power to issue monetary penalties that he would have to pay if a consumer is harmed. So yeah, we have a great deal of control. Which, by the way, for the three of you that are here, just to interject for a minute, let me tell you who these people are. Patrick Neale is our attorney, licensing board only. He's an outside attorney, he's on contract just to represent the licensing board. So you'll see me turn to him quite a bit. Mr. Zachary is here also for our behalf, but he works for the Page 6 September 17, 2003 county full-time in the legal department at the county. And he's basically watching over, but he's also representing these gentlemen over here, which are all members of the Contractor Licensing Board for Collier County. When we have cases, they are the ones that will present them. Mr. Nonnenmacher is the chief inspector; is that a correct nomenclature? MR. NONNENMACHER: Supervisor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Chief supervisor for the contractor licensing board. And there's three other -- or four people all total that work for him. Any other questions for this gentleman? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm looking at your credit report, it looks good. All the forms are in order and you understand the ramifications. MR. LANDON: Yes, sir. MR. JOSLIN: I see no insurance form in here. Or am I missing it? Other than the exemption form. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you gotten the insurance on the company yet, the new company? MR. LANDON: Have you got that -- MR. NONNENMACHER: No, Maggie has a note in the file here that they need insurance, if approved by the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I could see you waiting to spend that money once you're approved. MR. LANDON: Oh, yeah. Just let me clarify. I hope to give Mr. Rodriguez enough business that he primarily would just be working under my regime anyway. But when things are slack, he'll get business elsewhere. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I do notice in here there's an election to be exempt. And everybody needs to be aware of the new state law Page 7 September 17, 2003 that takes effect October 1st regarding exemptions. No exemptions will be allowed any longer on partnerships, sole proprietorships -- correct me if I'm wrong here, Mr. Kneel. It has to be a corporation, and only three officers of the corporation will be allowed to be exempt, and all three of them have to own a minimum of 10 percent of the stock of the corporation. So it is a major change that takes effect October 1 st. MR. LANDON: I was not aware of that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. So in this case right here, you cannot be exempt on this corporation, because you only own one percent. MR. LANDON: I'll have to change that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you need to read up on the law. It was a massive wide-sweeping change. And some of it -- most of it goes into effect October 1st. Some of the issues regarding attorney fees and the way cases are handled will not go into effect until January 1st of 2004. So exemptions are going to be very few anymore. MR. LANDON: I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And their intent is to get rid of exemptions. We could approve this based on the fact that he has to show proper insurance to Maggie before it's approved -- or issued. Anybody? MR. JOSLIN: I'll make the motion that we approve this application, with the understanding that he has insurance before it is approved. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MS. KELLER: Second, Keller. aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor, signify by saying MR. JOSLIN: Aye. Page 8 September 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. BARIL: Aye, Baril. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. BLUM: I voted nay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. LEWIS: I voted nay. Aye. Opposed? Vote was six to one (sic) in favor. Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, wait, I didn't hear all those. MR. LEWIS: You didn't ask for a discussion, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Since we've got a split vote, let's open it for discussion. MR. LEWIS: I reviewed the application quite extensively. I think it's a very important thing to understand the validity of what's going on here and the importance of qualifying a second company. It's not just putting your license out there and letting somebody else use it. This application is riddled with problems. And I would just like it, if we're going to approve this license, it would have to be contingent that the application be clarified in these areas. Certain things, I'll just walk through it. Number one, we don't have an occupational license that should be attached to this for his existing business or the new business. We have no insurance verification, which was brought up. I have a problem with somebody owning one percent of a company and being a license holder and financially responsible, especially when he on his own application checked off that he has no check writing authority. The officers of the new corporation don't state -- there's nothing here to tell us anything about them, what their experience factor is, whether they've been doing this or they haven't been doing this. Mr. Landon has told us verbally here today under oath that, you know, Page 9 September 17, 2003 they've been doing it for at least two or three years that he knows of. We have no notarized statements. Let's see what else we have here. Just going through the contract. There's some problems with things on the affidavit, for instance, that are not complete. They have -- it's not a Florida corporation, or it's not noted as one. I want to make sure that in the affidavit of responsibility that Mr. Landon understands the full responsibility that is specified here and it just wasn't something that he went through and signed. Also, under the public inquiry for Florida corporations, Pride Construction, Inc. is listed as officer and directors of George Rodriguez and Adelai Rodriguez, and George F. Rodriguez, II, as president, vice president, secretary and treasurer. On the application there was a question for the exemption. Notice of election to be exempted from workers' comp. Mr. Landon specified himself as secretary of the corporation. So there's some problems there that we need to straighten out paperwork-wise. Again, I repeat, there's no occupational license. I was curious as to payment. One percent of the corporation. Are you going to take salary or compensation from this corporation? MR. LANDON: No, sir, that was a one-time payment each year, annually. MR. LEWIS: One percent of what? Is he going to pay you one percent -- MR. LANDON: Gross. MR. LEWIS: -- of the profits? Gross income? MR. LANDON: Yes. MR. LEWIS: And then the last thing I had was the fact of what you, Mr. Dickson, brought up about the insurance. I think we need to be very careful on that, the workers exemptions, if we're going to designate licenses, that we have some way to follow up, as of October 1 st. Page 10 September 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let me bring up a couple of issues and then I'm going to ask Mr. Neale to speak on it. Number one, he doesn't have to own any percentage of the business. By state law, he can qualify an entity that he has no ownership in. What he does have to fill out, and it's in your packet, is the financial responsibility form. That does allow any licensed contractor to license a company. And I know this has been abused in the past, but it does allow him to license a company and not have check writing -- they don't have to have check writing authority, they don't have to have ownership and they don't have to share in the profits, if they're willing to take full responsibility, which they do. We've never had an occupational license on any of these packets, nor is it required. That's more just a fee to do business, as you well know. It's not a license. MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, occupational license wouldn't be issued until his second entity license is -- they're issued in conjunction with each other. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, once it's approved. So you'll never see an occupational. Mr. Neale, you want to speak on some of those concerns? MR. NEALE: Yeah, as far as the occupational license, you're absolutely correct, that's an issue that it cannot be issued until he has this license, because it's -- occupational license is for contractors or contingent upon them being licensed, just like attorneys or doctors or anything else. Yeah, there are some obviously missing blanks in the form, but those I think you could cover. The other issue, as far as insurance, staff over at the contractor licensing office is pretty -- in fact extremely good in making sure that the insurance is in place before they'll do anything, so to some extent staff is relied upon for that. But they do take care of that, and Page 11 September 17, 2003 particularly if it's put in, as it was, as a contingency for this issuance for this license. As far as the ownership issue, they do not have to have any ownership. All they have to do is be legally qualified to act -- and the quotation directly from our ordinance in the Collier County ordinance is that the qualifying agent is legally qualified to act for the business organization in all matters connected with his contracting business, and that said qualifying agent has the authority to supervise construction undertaken by such business organization. Proof that a qualifying agent is legally qualified to act for the business organization includes but not limited to authority to sign checks, training and supervision of employees, hiring and firing of employees, other actions indicating active involvement in the business organization. Those are questions of fact for the board. But the application, as it is currently drafted, which is -- this application is modeled on the state application for qualification of second entity -- does require that they state that they are going to be actively involved and that they will be acting -- will be qualified in every way to act for the business. There's the affidavits wherein that they say they're legally qualified to act on behalf of the business. And then there is the resolution of authorization by the corporation. So while -- you know, you can question the applicant as to whether he fully understood that. He has sworn under oath both in -- and verbal testimony and in writing that he understands this and that he's stuck with it. So if it were to come to a matter where this new entity were to do something in violation of Collier County Contractor Licensing Law, this gentleman right here would be brought up in front of you for a hearing, and the sanctions range all the way from basically a rebuke to losing his license and being ordered to pay full compensation to the owner, including paying for damages that they had caused. So -- and this board has issued orders that have run into Page 12 September 17, 2003 the tens of thousands of dollars against contractors and they've been collected, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And it is something that that order from this board can be enforced by the sheriff's department and the county, because we do act under the guise of the Collier County Commissioners. What we're basically looking for on a second entity is a clean credit report, no problems in the past, good history, good individual. Which, by this application, we do have. Everything else pretty well meets the guideline. What we're looking out for is someone who's going to qualify a second entity in an effort to maybe hide some problems from their primary entity. And that's why all of them come before this board. So -- you had a comment? MR. BLUM: It appears that all legal issues have been met, and I can understand that. But we're mentioning the word intent here quite a bit, and I'm a big one on intent. I'm just wondering if the intent of the qualification part of the code is for-- and please forgive me, I don't mean anything personal here, just my gut reaction, okay? I don't know these people, I have no agenda. Mr. Landon basically is putting his license up for sale for a fee to a guy who's doing the work anyway, who's gonna still to do the work, he's still going to get paid whether he gets licensed or not. Mr. Landon is qualified, is certified, licensed to have this work done by Mr. Rodriguez and evidently his family. So what I see the intent here is just personally he's getting some money to let this guy get a license. And I don't know that that's really what the intent of this is. That's the feeling I get. MR. LANDON: May I address that? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Certainly. MR. LANDON: Well, Mr. Rodriguez can't get his license presently unless I qualify him. But he's a friend, he's an extremely Page 13 September 17, 2003 responsible individual, or else I wouldn't be standing before you right now. He can't get a license without being qualified because, as I mentioned earlier, he was previously qualified, for all intensive purposes (sic), the man dropped him because he formed a partnership with another business, and as you all related to, he can't qualify two different businesses, or a third business, and that's why I'm qualifying Mr. Rodriguez. I would trust him with my life. MR. BLUM: I applaud you as being a nice guy and doing something very nice for a friend. I think it's great. MR. LANDON: Well, it's doing it for me, too, because-- MR. BLUM: Right. MR. LANDON: -- I'm not going to -- MR. BLUM: One percent is one percent. MR. LANDON: -- you know, he's going to be subcontracting work for me at good prices. MR. BLUM: Yeah. MR. LANDON: Or I can pay somebody a lot more money and get the same work done, as you said. MR. BLUM: I just get the feeling that this application, the intent is just dollars and cents. That's my feeling, since you really aren't going to have an ownership stake at all, basically. You're just doing something, for whatever your motivation is, that's up to you. That's my feeling. MR. LANDON: Well, sir, I'm not trying to hide anything. MR. BLUM: No, no, no. MR. LANDON: I'm really not. MR. BLUM: It's obvious. Everything's right out in front. That's why we're talking candidly. MR. LANDON: I have nothing to hide. I'm a very responsible individual. MS. KELLER: Do we know anything about the other companies that Mr. Rodriguez has qualified? Do we have any Page 14 September 17, 2003 information on those? MR. LANDON: He was qualified by. MS. KELLER: Oh, by, okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussions? MR. BARIL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'm not opposed to the application. I think that everything is in order. I am unsure of Mr. Rodriguez's experience. His employment history shows that he worked at Marco Island Rental Properties and Bald Eagle Tire on Marco Island. Bald Eagle Tire is not in the construction business. Marco Island Rental Properties may engage in certain construction activities; I don't know that they're licensed general contractors and what the extent of his duties and responsibilities were there. We haven't heard from him as far as what his -- whose license he worked under prior and what experience he has other than Mr. Landon's vouching for his experience and the quality of his work. Also, we don't know Mr. Rodriguez's ability to actually run a business. And I'm hesitant to approve this request without him at least taking the business portion of the contractor licensing exam. As a matter further, I would like him to attempt to take the contractor license test and get his own license, rather than'this attempt to sidestep the construction industry license. Also, if Mr. Landon is going to use this person exclusively, Mr. Landon could hire him as an employee. And in doing this second entity, it gives Mr. Landon really an unfair advantage over other contractors who are paying for licensed contractors with workers' comp. and with insurance on their employees, in order for him to have an unfair advantage with this qualification being -- it almost gives him a right to use this subcontractor and direct him, much like an employee, as opposed to an independent subcontractor who is going to work for many different general contractors. And that's why I don't support this Page 15 September 17, 2003 request. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let me respond to a couple of issues, and first let me explain my position as Chairman, so that you understand where I'm coming from. I can make no motions. All I do is direct the board. So what you do here -- I can vote on motions, but that's it. So what you do here with this request is totally up to you. However, Mr. Rodriguez is not at issue here. Mr. Rodriguez does not even it need to be in this room. Mr. Rodriguez is not to be questioned. It doesn't matter what Mr. Rodriguez's qualifications are, nor does it matter what his experience is. The only thing that's at issue is the gentleman standing before you who is a license holder, which was my very first question, is he qualified to hold a license for stucco and drywall with a general contractor's license. And the answer from legal and county both was yes. So the license stands on its own. It doesn't matter if Mr. Landon has ever done a stucco job or a drywall job. His license is prima facie evidence that he is qualified to do that work. And there is no requirement for experience or affidavits when we have a licensed individual before us. Mr. Neale, you want to comment? MR. NEALE: No, I totally agree with Mr. Dickson's comments on this in that the board cannot look to really the officers of the corporation. They can look to the financial stability of that corporation, if it's been in business for any period of time, because the corporation will be one which is qualified. However, the application is by the licensed contractor to qualify a second entity. That is the issue as to whether this gentleman is qualified and has met the standards to qualify, really not so much as to qualify a second entity as to quality an entity in Collier County. The only reason this comes in front of the board is because it is Page 16 September 17, 2003 a second entity. If he were going and applying for this -- if he decided to drop his license for his current construction business and went and applied for a license for Mr. Rodriguez's business all by himself as a single qualifier, this would never come in front of this board. And that's something that the board needs to know. And, you know, I understand that some of you are new and so there's something to learn here. But what you are to look at is this as an application by Mr. Landon to license a company under the circumstances and the parameters set out in that application. If he meets those standards of qualification, then he should be permitted to license the business. If he does not meet those standards, in this board's opinion, then he should not be permitted to license this entity. But those are the tests to be met. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any further discussion? MR. BARIL: Well, under -- after hearing that, I would like to change my vote. Because I stated in the beginning of my comment that there was nothing wrong with the package. And Mr. Landon certainly meets all the requirements. MR. JOSLIN: I'll just make one other comment to some of the new members on the board, that Les Dickson and myself have been on this board for quite a while and we're trying to do things exactly the way they're supposed to be done. We can appreciate your concerns as far as having someone or maybe feeling the intent to try to do something underhanded or to try to make money on their license, which in essence I guess to really break it down into ballpark numbers and say it correctly, that man is going to make money on his license, in a sense, but he's not technically selling it. He's doing it the correct way, setting up another business, and hopefully having someone that's responsible run his business or help someone in the business. So in that essence, it's pretty hard for us not to say denied. I appreciate your feelings, because I've had that same feeling before myself. Page 17 September 17, 2003 MS. KELLER: Well, additionally, he's not necessarily getting paid for the license, he's getting paid for the liability that he's taking. He's taking on the responsibility and he is getting paid for having that responsibility of monitoring the business, so I think it's important that we emphasize that and that responsibility. MR. LANDON: Can I relate one other thing? I don't want any employees. I've been there, and I don't want anymore employees working directly under me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But at the same time, I'll say to all of you on the board this morning, I'm absolutely thrilled that there's so much discussion and so much inquisition and studying of packets. Because I've been on this board over 13 years, and sometimes you sit up here and just die for someone to say something, or get involved. Believe me, you're going to get your chance. You will see some loo-loos come in here and some absolute wild cases. MR. LANDON: I'm impressed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But at the same time, I mean, I've had offices all over, in Orlando and Dade County and everywhere else, and Collier County does govern their people and watch over them. But some of your concerns today were not licensing, and that's what we have to remember, it is Contractor Licensing Board. And that's the only guy. If he messes up, we will not only have the power to put that stucco and drywall business out of business, but when he loses his license, that will put his building business out of business. And if we issue a fine, which includes restitution and fines, that's collectable by the county, and there's only one guy that's avoided that since I've been on this board, and he died, and they are making a claim against his estate. Let me do this, let me ask for a re-vote. The motion was that we approve this second entity with the qualification that county staff, which is Maggie -- you will hear her name quite often; she is Page 18 September 17, 2003 wonderful to deal with and very precise -- does verify that proper insurance in all categories, not just workers' comp., but all categories, is in place. I had the motion and I did have a second. Let me call for a re-vote at this time. If you say -- I didn't hear some of the nays before, so make sure I hear it. MR. NEALE: I'd suggest a roll call vote. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, a roll call vote, let's do that. Starting at my right with Bill. MR. LEWIS: Lewis, nay, due to the fact of an incomplete application. MR. BESWlCK: Beswick, aye. MR. BLUM: Blum, nay. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Dickson, aye. MS. KELLER: Keller, aye. MR. BARIL: Baril, aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, by a vote of 5-2, you are approved. We wish you well. I don't have to say anything else, you've heard it all today. But as you know, tomorrow will be the day to start processing. MR. BARIL: The-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's seven of us. MR. LANDON: Thank you all very much. I would like to say one thing: I really appreciate the professionalism that's been alluded here. I have worked in other counties that a simple grease of the palm would have waived this process. But I do like Collier County, because it's the most professional. Not because of you people, it's the most professional county I've ever done business in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I agree with you. And thank you. Page 19 September 17, 2003 MR. LEWIS: Thank you, Mr. Landon. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well. MR. NEALE: One thing I might suggest, and I'm doing this without consulting my fellow counsel here, is that for the next meeting, Mr. Zachary and I prepare a little presentation for the new members to give you a little bit better fill-in on what the role of the board is, what the various powers of the board are, what things you'll see, what things you won't see, and the standards for judging all these various items. Because I think this is the first time we've ever gotten three new members all at once. And so I think -- particularly three non-contractor members. Because the contractor members have been through the process. So if that would be the pleasure of the board, I'd be happy to work on that between now and the next meeting and come up with a short 1 O-minute presentation just so you know where we are and what your role is here. So if that would be your pleasure, I'd be happy to. MR. BESWICK: I'd find that very helpful. MR. LEWIS: Although I have been a member of this board and I am a state licensed certified general contractor, and I believe Mr. Blum is also in licensed organizations, again, I think that would be very helpful and appreciative. MR. NEALE: Glad to do it. And what I'll also -- we'll also do is address the difference between the state registered, state certified and local specialty contractors, because that gets -- that's an issue that comes up fairly often and you as a licensed individual understand that there are various levels. And I'll also be happy to work on that. MR. BLUM: Just to add the question a bit, I've been involved in civil state licenses also in businesses I've been involved in. State has different guidelines in the county, as we all know. Do we as a board try to go along with state guidelines to make Page 20 September 17, 2003 things easy? Is that kind of like an unspoken thing? MR. NEALE: Well, the way it works, frankly, is that the only reason this board has any power at all is Chapter 489 grants it to this board. You know, 489 which governs all contracting licensing. And that chapter grants to this -- to the local board certain enforcement powers, should they decide to take them on. And so what we do is typically follow the state guidelines as closely as we can as far as disciplinary levels and all that. And we also try and follow them as far as -- particularly the area you'll hear me probably talking about more than anything else is on financial responsibility. Because the state statute sets that very clearly. The state statute and the administrative code sets out very clearly what the guidelines are for financial responsibility. So you'll hear me referring to the Florida Administrative Code on those issues and things like that. So, yeah, we do do pretty doggone closely the way the state does it. MR. LEWIS: Excuse me, just one more and we won't belabor this anymore. But Mr. Neale, wouldn't -- we mentioned financial responsibility. Didn't we used to have in the application an actual form of financial responsibility? MR. NEALE: There is still a financial responsibility form in the primary packet that the county gets. What it really comes down to now is primarily a credit report. There is no longer -- unlike the state statute, which requires a minimum net worth for certain contractor categories, Collier County ordinance does not require that for any other categories, other than that required by the state. So we don't do that. What we do is the credit report is what's required, and there's no specific financial form, other than the form that says the contractor takes all responsibility for all financial matters regarding the entity, SO-- MR. LEWIS: That's what I didn't see. I thought we used to Page 21 September 17, 2003 have a form, an actual singled-out form, single-page form, that acknowledged financial responsibility for that corporation. MR. NEALE: Well, what we had at one time, and we, after doing some research determined we couldn't do it anymore, there was the ability at one time for a contractor to take financial respon -- or for someone, not a contractor, to take financial responsibility for an entity. We -- after some discussion by the board, the board decided that that was not appropriate here in Collier County to have somebody just because they had a lot of money to be able to be the guy that takes financial responsible. So that's been removed, and now it's just the contractor swears under oath that he takes on all financial responsibility for the entity, so -- MR. LEWIS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In the one form that we are looking for, if you look at number eight on that last packet that you had, page number eight, we're looking for that affidavit. And if you read that affidavit, that pretty well covers all the issues of financial responsibility. He says that he's legally qualified to act on behalf of the business organization, sought to be licensed in all matters and that they will supervise. When they sign that, it's a catchall. MR. NEALE: Yeah. And that language is taken directly from the Collier County Licensing Ordinance, so they know exactly what's in the ordinance there. As I say, what we did with this form -- and this form has been in effect for about the last year and a half-- is this form was created based -- using the state form for a second entity as a model. So we really did mirror their form. So that all the questions that needed to be asked, particularly if you looked at Page 5, this is the financial responsibility section of that affidavit where, you know, if there's a yes on that box of checks, there's going to be a whole lot of questions asked. So they have to go through this and swear to this financial Page 22 September 17, 2003 responsibility as part of their whole application. MR. LEWIS: Thank you. MR. NEALE: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, one request I would have for that next meeting when you make that presentation, and we do follow the state, but there's some things with the state we don't follow. Some of which I have a problem with and I don't like. One is a -- the financial stability and proof that contractors have to give to get a license. As you know, I'm state as well. We had to prove a net worth of "X" number of dollars. That's not required in the county. There's some other things not required. What we need to have copies of, for all of these people that are new on the board, I'm still using, and tell me if I'm correct, you'll hear codified ordinances. Codified being Collier County ordinances that you're going to go through every year or two and we'll make changes and we'll have meetings. But right now I've got ordinances No. 99-22, I don't even know if that's still in effect. I've got Codified Ordinance 2000-58, and then I've got Codified Ordinance of 2002. And I think the Codified Ordinance of 2002, is that the last one? MR. NEALE: That's the last one, because the last amendments were 2002-21 was the last amended. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, I don't have 2002-21. MR. NEALE: What we'll make sure is -- Bob, if we could work on that. We'll make sure that everybody gets the latest copy of both codified and the basic ordinance by the time the next meeting rolls around. CHAIRMAN mentioned, they're MR. NEALE: CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So these other two that I previously no longer in effect, correct? No, they've been amended. DICKSON: And then you can go through there, and that's what we work from. And you'll see in our cases also at the end of a case, if we take action on a license, the last thing we do is Page 23 September 17, 2003 make a recommendation to the state. Because what the state has done, their state board, right now they're four years behind on hearing cases. So that's why they come to the county first. And the state is trying to get to the point where the state is only used for appeals. Obviously if it's a Collier County license, county license only, there is no appeal. State license can appeal to the state board, if we take an action on them. But at the same time, this is shocking to me, of all the license holders in the entire State of Florida, only 10 percent are state certified. 90 percent of the licenses in this state are county licenses. Okay? Let's move on. Any other discussion or comments? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next on the agenda is Robert Sweeney. Are you present? MR. SWEENEY: I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sir, would you come forward. I'll have you sworn in, please. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. SWEENEY: Can you hear me fine? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. We probably have you totally nervous by now. MR. SWEENEY: So much trepidation, but I think I'll survive. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But in an effort to relax, just tell us who, what, when, what you're doing and why. MR. SWEENEY: Sure. I am currently a qualifier for Regal Kitchens, Incorporated in Collier County since 2001. That corporation has purchased an existing business in Lee County that was known as Wilson Art Custom Products and is now Regal Custom Products LLC, and it has done business in Collier County and Lee County both. And for that reason, I am qualifying the second company, Regal Customs, LLC under my current license here in Collier County. And that is why I am here for you today. Page 24 September 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who's qualifying the Lee County portion? MR. SWEENEY: I will be doing that also. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. In answer to your question, gentlemen, we do not recognize reciprocity between counties. Just because he got it in Lee County doesn't mean he's going to get it in Collier County. MR. BLUM: Lee County is nicer than we are. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, they treat us the same way. And that's the way it should be. County license should be county license. We get them from Dade and Broward all the time, well, I have a license over there. So what? You're going to meet our qualifications or you're not going to have one here. If you want one here, go get the state license. Of course, some of the specialty trades don't have -- you can't get a state license. Some of the specialty trades can only get county, so they have to go county by county. But you won't find reciprocity anywhere; am I correct, Mr. Nonnenmacher? MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes, with a little condition. What we do is accept the Experior grades. In other words, if Mr. Sweeney came in to us and was licensed in Lee County and took an Experior test or equivalent with a score of 75 or higher, we would then have him fill out a complete application. And if he qualified in the application process, we would license him. If there was a question, we would bring it before you. But our ordinance says that if they took the test and they got a score of 75, we will accept that. Or better. Seventy-five or better. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Unless it's a second entity. MR. NONNENMACHER: Oh, yeah, second entities, we do not -- staff does not touch second entities, except to prepare paperwork for you to decide on that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right. Page 25 September 17, 2003 Questions from the board for Mr. Sweeney? MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. LEWIS: If I may, Mr. Sweeney, I only have one question for you. What type of license are you licensed currently for in Collier County? MR. SWEENEY: In Collier County, I hold a license as a carpentry specialty -- general specialty carpentry license. I took the business and law exam for that license back in 2000 -- either late 2000 or early 2001, and passed the business and law exam. Since that time last year in another county I've taken the finish carpentry exam as well as the business and law exam again, and passed both. MR. LEWIS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you still live in Coral Gables? MR. SWEENEY: I do sir, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you licensed over there as well? MR. SWEENEY: I am in process in Dade County to become qualifier for Regal Kitchens in Dade County. MR. BLUM: I know it doesn't really matter, but do you actually work at the trade, or are you just a qualifier? MR. SWEENEY: Well, I don't work in the field any longer. My father owns Regal Kitchens and this new entity, and I've worked in the field for about four and a half years. But I've since then moved into more administrative functions. Now I handle all the billing, check signing, qualifying, license holding. So he's grooming me to take over for him one day. MR. BLUM: Congratulations. MR. SWEENEY: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And this is a family business? MR. SWEENEY: Yes, sir, my father and his partner have been in business together for 45 years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's strong. Page 26 September 17, 2003 Any other questions for this gentleman? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's a nice credit report, except for your one car wreck in Dade County. That's the only thing that showed up. Do I have a motion? MR. BLUM: So moved. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You have to say it. MR. BLUM: Oh, I make a motion that Mr. Sweeney be approved for his second qualifying license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have a second? MR. BARIL: Second, Baril. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: to start asking that more often. Let me say again, I'm thrilled to have you guys. MR. NEALE: Got a sharp board here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is nice. I have a motion and a second. saying aye. (Unanimous votes of ayes.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: well. I haven't been asking that. I'm going All those in favor, signify by Opposed? You got seven-zip. We wish you MR. SWEENEY: Thank you all very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You know about the one-day delay. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Sweeney. Frank Ragan, are you present? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ragan is not here. Page 27 September 17, 2003 Oscar Escalon? Would you please come forward, sir. And I need to have you sworn in, please, if you would. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: English good? MR. ESCALON: I try to do best I can do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sounds pretty good to me. MR. ESCALON: Yeah, it's okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I know a little, but this is my good one here. Very fluent. So if you have a problem, ask, okay? MR. ESCALON: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Tell us why. MR. ESCALON: Okay, I here, you know, because I come and doing my test maybe for seven, eight times, you know, for get a license, you know, for tile and marble. My last two time, you know, I had took a 74 percent. Supposed to be 75. It's for only one point, you know, I don't know how I no get my license. That's the reason I'm here, you know. MR. JOSLIN: You were real close, huh? MR. ESCALON: Sorry? MR. JOSLIN: You were real close. MR. ESCALON: Yeah. You know, you see all my exam, you know, my score is high, you know. I am the person, you know, I don't speak English 100 percent. You know, I try and do it the best I can, you know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I remember you. MR. JOSLIN: I do, too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've been here before. MR. ESCALON: Right. MR. NONNENMACHER: If I could interrupt for a minute, it was eight times he took the tile and marble. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We had another gentleman for two years that was coming to this board, that we all got to where we Page 28 September 17, 2003 really enjoyed seeing him. He was -- well, he was just inter -- his wife was totally fluent. What was he, from Russia or Poland? MS. KELLER: Poland. MR. NEALE: Poland. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And every night he would go home at the dinner table for three hours and study English. I mean, he knew his trade. He was a master. And this went on -- MS. KELLER: Not fireplaces. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Huh? MS. KELLER: Not fireplaces. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not fireplaces. MS. KELLER: He said there was a -- it was the painting test, and they had a question about fireplaces. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, the painting tests -- some of these tests are pretty bad. The painting test had questions about fireplaces in it. But anyway, this guy, for two years he struggled, just like this guy did. And every time we would see it go up and up and up. And finally he hit. Well, I don't want to say, because I'll influence the board. But some of these people, like this gentleman here, how long has -- how many years? Well, you've been doing it for two years. MR. ESCALON: Two years. MR. NEALE: If I may, and just so the board can-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Read the -- MR. NEALE: I'll read the section from the code that's relevant to this. This is Section 22-184(C) of the codified ordinance. And in this case, the board may consider the applicant's relevant recent experience in the specific trade, and based upon such experience, may waive testing requirements, if convinced that the applicant is qualified by experience, whereby such competency testing would be superfluous. Page 29 September 17, 2003 And affidavits from former employers, affidavits from union organizations or any other source within the trade may be used to evaluate his experience. I believe there are some affidavits in this packet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I might also say that all the counties that surround Collier, passing grades are 70; is that not correct? MR. NONNENMACHER: something, sir? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. NONNENMACHER: That's correct. And if I may say Sure, go ahead. Although you don't want to influence this board, I'll take the opportunity to influence this board, if I could. Staff has no objection whatsoever of you approving this application and, in fact, we recommend that you do. MR. BLUM: Could I ask why you feel so strongly in favor of this gentleman? MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes. He took the tile and marble test eight times. It's not that he's coming and looking for something for nothing. As Mr. Dickson said, we're the only county that requires 75. This is a specialty license. His score was 74. I think he has put more than enough time into this. He's been working under-- as an employee, he is well qualified as far as his application is concerned, and as Mr. Neale just stated, if this board feels testing is superfluous, due to his experience, you could actually give a person a license without even taking a test. Not that you ever would, but it's at your discretion, if a person came in with an application showing all kinds of experience, you could bypass that testing procedure. MR. NEALE: And I remember that this board actually has done that, I believe twice in the past with people who came in from out of other jurisdictions where they had been master plumbers or, you know, people of that ilk that have been in their trade for 30 or 35 years and obviously had the qualifications. So the board has done Page 30 September 17, 2003 that, that I've been representing this board for I think my whole life, and I have only seen that happen twice in all the hundreds of these applications this board has seen in front of it. But as far as the testing, when the person has put in the testing, the board has done this on a periodic basis, based on the facts presented in front of them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And at the same time, we have had -- well, we just recently had a roofing contractor from Dade County that's been in business for 35 years, and his test scores which were over 20 or 25 years old was a 74. That one we approved. At the same time, to show you we're not lenient, we do have a couple of individuals that will come before this board every four or five months who have taken the test eight, nine, 10, one is 12 times, and they can't get higher than a 40 or a 50. Now, we don't show any lenience in that respect. But where we see that the individual has really worked and continually improves, that's where we've shown the leniency. And our attitude is this individual has worked so hard for his license, harder than probably any of us did, that he would be nothing but an asset to Collier County. MS. KELLER: Can I just ask Mr. Escalon to tell us about his experience? MR. ESCALON: Experience? Okay, I got more than 10 years in experience. I was living before in Miami, you know. I took it in Miami, the Dade County license, you know. But now here is different. I got living in this place six years, maybe more than six years. The point, you know, I want to take a license, you know, because I want to work, you know, this trade, you know. That's my point, you know. But I got, you know, a lot of experience, you know, because 10 years. MR. JOSLIN: Who are you working for right now? Page 31 September 17, 2003 MR. ESCALON: License. MR. JOSLIN: No, what company are you working for right now? MR. ESCALON: Where I working now? Okay, now, you know, I am working for a company in Cape Coral. A couple of work here in Naples, and a company here, in Floors One. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Floors One? MR. ESCALON: Floors One. MS. KELLER: I think he has that -- he has a verification of experience. MR. JOSLIN: I think I'm going to jump over the edge here and I'm going to -- hopefully the board's going to go along with this, but you've taken the test eight times and this last time you got really close, so I'm going to go ahead and say to myself that I think you're qualified to get this license. I was thinking about a restriction on it, but I don't really think we need to do that either. So I'm going to go ahead and approve the motion and look for a second. MS. KELLER: Second, Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have a motion to approve and a second. Discussion? MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. LEWIS: The only thing that I would discuss is, in keeping with my earlier comments, is that the application appears to be somewhat incomplete, and I would agree to approve this with a couple of notes; first off, that I applaud you, sir, for trying so diligently to get your license in this county, and I thank you for that and your efforts. I would like to note that he has passed his business and law exam with a 76. So that really shows that you've done a lot of studying, and I appreciate that. But if the board could make sure that we update the information Page 32 September 17, 2003 that's in the packet, for instance, with a current copy of the annual report, which is required for the application, and also, although it's probably just a formality, a credit report for the Eagle Corporation, since that's who he's actually trying to license is Eagle Tiles and Marble. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Were you saying an annual financial statement? MR. LEWIS: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But it's a new company. MS. KELLER: It doesn't exist. MR. LEWIS: The new company has to have a financial report. MR. NEALE: Well, no, if it's a new company, the relevant credit report less than a year is his credit report. That's the one we need to have. If it's been in business for less than a year, if it's been -- actually, this one would need both. It needs the credit report for Eagle Tile and also for him. Because Eagle Tile has been in business for more than a year. MR. LEWIS: But if those things are taken care of, I would be willing to push my vote for approval. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion? MR. NEALE: I just need to see if the movement and the seconder accept those conditions on that motion. MR. JOSLIN: I'll accept that. MS. KELLER: I'll accept that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, the condition, let me define it. The motion we haven't voted on, but the motion has been amended to have him produce annual report, financial statements for Eagle -- MR. LEWIS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- or credit report or both? MR. LEWIS: Both. An annual report of the corporation, which is required, and also a financial report or a credit report on Eagle Tiles and Marble. And that there's no derogatory statements thereon. Page 33 September 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have an annual report for Eagle? MR. ESCALON: Okay, the point, Eagle Tile and Marble, you know, I open the corporation, you know, because for taking the insurance. 2000 1 maybe start to work. I open in 2000, you know, but I start to working Eagle Tile and Marble maybe 2000, maybe May, May-June. Okay? I can get credit report for you with Tile-Marble, but not too long, you know, maybe for one year, you know, year and a half. It's no problem for me, I can get a credit report. MR. NEALE: He does have to show that Eagle is still in business, that it's still an active Florida corporation. If he's going to qualify, it has to be an active corporation. MR. BLUM: My understanding was that he can get a year and a halls worth of financial report, not the full amount of time that it's been in existence, is that -- MR. ESCALON: Yeah, it's supposed to be -- you know, I had worked here only for the company in May, 2000 to maybe this year. No, maybe June this year. So maybe two years, you know. And now, you know, my credit report is for personal, you know, supposed to be, you know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you could get a credit report for you. MR. ESCALON: If you want, I can get, you know. That's no problem. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: After what you've gone through, that should be pretty easy for you. It's a lot easier than taking the test again, isn't it.9 MR. NEALE: The other thing is -- MR. BLUM: The staff won't issue the license then until -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They have a credit report from Eagle Tile and a financial statement. And we will leave it up to staff that Page 34 September 17, 2003 those are in order. MR. NEALE: And the board can actually -- just as a matter of note, the board has the option, because as I think everybody here knows, a person can be qualified -- can be licensed either as an individual or as a qualifier for a corporation. So the board could -- because I don't know for a fact, I don't think anybody knows whether Eagle Tile and Marble is still an active corporation in that you could -- the board could go forward and permit this gentleman to -- Mr. Escalon to get his license as an individual, and then he could qualify that corporation subsequently. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Neale, wouldn't he need to resubmit a new package? MR. NEALE: The requirements for an individual are basically the same requirements as those for a business organization. What could be done by the board, if it so wishes, is to at this point do nothing more than waive the testing requirement. And then by waiving the testing requirement, because of what the board may find, he could then submit an appropriate application as either an individual or a qualified corporation, and then that could become solely a matter for the administrative staff to handle, as opposed to having to come back to this board again. MR. BLUM: It seems to me we agree he should have a license, consensus. The question is, is the corporation a corporate entity or a business entity? MR. JOSLIN: Right, is it a sole proprietor or is it a corporation? MR. BLUM: Yeah, I'm a little confused. So I have no problem with him being licensed himself. MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, if the rest of the board feels that way, staff will straighten out the application. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's -- MR. NEALE: What I would suggest -- Page 3 5 September 17, 2003 MR. JOSLIN: Amend the motion. MR. NEALE: -- amend the motion to be solely a motion for waiver of testing requirement. And then the staff could then take it forward from an administrative point of view as to the appropriate paperwork, application, so forth. And then if they find a difficulty with the credit report or anything else, then it could come back to the board. If not, it would go forward as a normal application. MR. BLUM: Sounds reasonable. MR. JOSLIN: So I need to amend the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's do a new motion. MR. NEALE: Okay, just withdraw the motion, that's the easiest thing. You can just withdraw it. If the seconder will accept the withdrawal, then-- MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion that we waive -- I forgot his name. Mr. Escalon's testing requirements, and that we grant him this ability to receive this license, providing that he turns in the proper credit reports and the proper package to staff and staff reviews this. If there's no further problems, then the license is granted. MS. KELLER: Second, Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we have a first and a second. Mr. -- I can't believe -- Joslin -- we've been together forever. Would you withdraw your first motion? MR. JOSLIN: Yes, I will. I withdraw the first motion I made. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Will you withdraw your second on the first motion? MS. KELLER: Withdraw my second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And amended, of course. Okay, I have a motion and a second. Is everyone clear on it, that we waive the testing requirements. County require all reports or applications that they deem necessary, and if there's no problems, then he will be issued his license. Any discussion on that? Page 36 September 17, 2003 aye. (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor, signify by saying Opposed? (No response.) MR. ESCALON: CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. ESCALON: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's a motion. You got a 7-0, too. I'm always proud to see people that work so hard to get their license. You've done well. MR. ESCALON: Yeah, you know, I tried doing, you know, to seeing maybe one year, you know, studying hard, you know, taking my license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Collier County loves to have people like you. So do well. MR. ESCALON: Thanks so much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And tomorrow you can see Maggie and the people and get things taken care of. MR. ESCALON: Okay. Have a good day. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You, too. Frank Ragan never did show up. Old business, there is none. Public hearings, we were going to contest a citation; there's no one out there. MR. NEALE: He thought better of it, I guess. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I guess so. MR. NONNENMACHER: And for the record, he was notified of the hearing in writing. MR. NEALE: I do have one matter that was hanging over from last month's -- or the last meeting that I just wanted to see from staff what has happened with Mr. Belyea. At the last meeting, he was going to come forward with some additional information, and it was Page 37 September 17, 2003 going to be put on the September agenda, and I just noticed that it wasn't. I just wondered if we had any further contact from Mr. Belyea. MR. NONNENMACHER: I'm not quite sure. But as far as I know, he never brought in that information requested, and that's the reason for not being on the agenda. MR. NEALE: Okay. Yeah, because I just -- I noticed it fi.om my notes from last month. Because he needed to complete his application and bring it to the board -- or to staff so that it could be presented to the board for this month. And obviously he did not bother to come in and complete his application. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: IfI could suggest to the new members, you do have packets for Mr. Ragan and for the contesting of the citation. Always found it's a good idea to hang on to those and keep them for next month, because they sometimes show up, and county doesn't have to do all these copies again. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Dickson, does the board have to take any action on this contested citation? Make some kind of a decision? MR. do is find NEALE: Yeah, they actually do. What the board needs to that even though he had contested it, that he failed to show up for the hearing which was scheduled. That he had contested in the time, but he failed to show up at the hearing. And then the board can, if they so decide, find that the citation is valid and it goes forward for enforcement. MR. JOSLIN: I only see one thing on here which could be a determinant as far as him coming here which the ticket is written on, from Pompano Beach. And he was given a $500 citation. Do you think we'll ever see the man again? MR. NEALE: Well, if-- MR. BLUM: Is this the guy that said he wanted to be in Collier County, to be licensed here, and he was sorry, and he didn't know the Page 38 September 17, 2003 law? Am I looking a the right one? Code enforcement caught him on a neighbor's roof and he wasn't aware -- MR. NEALE: No, that's is a different one. MR. BLUM: Sorry. MR. HOOPINGARNER: Mr. Chairman, I can elaborate on that a little bit, if you'd like. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, please. MR. HOOPINGARNER: It's my citation. This gentleman, Arthur Wayne Francis, he qualifies U.S. Installation Group, which does all the work for Home Depot. They subcontract U.S. installation to do their work, and then in turn U.S. Installation Group subcontracts the work out. The agenda is a little bit deceiving here because it says he's contesting Citation No. 1529 issued for no tile license. Mr. Francis does have a tile license. The actual charge is that he hired an unlicensed sub to do the work. That's what the original charge is. It just so happens that Mr. Francis does live in Pompano Beach, but he does qualify U.S. Installation Group. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But if we deal with it at this time, it doesn't prevent him from coming before this board, the fact that he doesn't show up. He can still come before the board. MR. NEALE: He has appealed it. He had a hearing date set. If he doesn't show for his hearing date, it's just like you don't show for a hearing date in court. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I see what you're saying. So you're basically just looking for a statement and not a motion? MR. NEALE: No, you need to make a motion pursuant to 489.127, ifI can get to it. MS. KELLER: Does he have the wrong date on this letter for the ticket? It says June 26th, and the ticket's June 30th? MR. NONNENMACHER: Date of violation is 6-26. Page 39 September 17, 2003 MR. HOOPINGARNER: Yes, ma'am. The date of the original charge that the violation took place was June 26th. That's when the contractor, the unlicensed contractor, was observed on the job. And he was issued a citation for being an unlicensed contractor on the job. And then Mr. Francis, a representative of U.S. Installation, was called into our office at a later date, approximately through the weekend and everything, June 30th. And that's when that citation was issued. But on the bottom there, it says date violation observed was June 26th. That's the date the original unlicensed contractor was observed. MR. NEALE: The only issue that I would have as far as the board going forward is do we have the proof that this was delivered to him by certified mail, certified return receipt? MR. NONNENMACHER: I don't have any indication it was certified. MR. NEALE: Okay, because that is required under the statutes. So-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's ignore it. MR. NEALE: Ignore it for this week, staff could take care of making sure that he's notified by certified return receipt. MR. JOSLIN: Right. Put it on the next agenda. MR. NEALE: And then put it on the next agenda. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If they don't pay these citations, are these citations that you can get a bench warrant issued? MR. NEALE: The way this works actually is these citations can be -- a certified copy of the order, not the citation, but the order that would be issued by this board can be recorded in the public records. It constitutes a lien on all that person's property, wherever it's recorded, and it can be foreclosed up. Or in the case when they sell their property, it pops up on the title search and they have to pay for it. Page 40 September 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But that's only within Collier County limits, right? MR. NEALE: It actually can be recorded, I believe, wherever necessary. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You remember the tile contractor from Miami? MR. NEALE: The way it states in here is a certified copy of an order imposing a civil penalty against an uncertified contractor may be recorded in the public records and, thereafter, shall constitute a lien against any real or personal property owned by the violator. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So that's statewide. Mrs. Ottenstein never got paid, correct, Mr. Nonnenmacher? MR. NONNENMACHER: As far as I know she has not got paid, no. CHAIRMAN $3,000 order from MR. NEALE: order. It's specific CHAIRMAN citation. MR. NEALE: DICKSON: And that was a 3,000 -- over a there board. Right, but that was a -- that wasn't this kind of to this statute. DICKSON: Okay, specific to the statute of a Right. What she got was a restitution order, which has to be enforced through the courts. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In Collier County. Cannot go outside the bounds of Collier County. MR. NEALE: Well, I mean, the defendant -- certainly you can get service on the defendant outside of Collier County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but you can't attach property outside of Collier County. MR. NEALE: If you get an order from the courts in Collier County, you sure can. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. It's just not worth chasing -- MR. NEALE: Potentially. Page 41 September 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- for $3,000. By the way, we will get some of these citations that will be contested because they didn't know any better. That doesn't get very far here. In fact, it's real quick. You know the routine, ignorance of the law is no excuse. MR. BLUM: How does this affect this gentleman's ability to qualify his Home Depot business if he doesn't pay the citation? Or does it? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Nonnenmacher? MR. NONNENMACHER: It doesn't at all. MR. BLUM: So he can walk away, not pay and still qualify business and carry on just like he did before? We have not way to -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He can walk away and not pay, but we can get a court order to try to attach any property he has and go after it. MR. BLUM: The only way we can get his attention is -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And don't you normally do that? MR. NONNENMACHER: What we do -- what staff does is if they violate it three times, they'll get three citations, one for 300 and two for 500. The fourth time they violate the ordinance, we'll bring him before you, rather than issue a citation, unless it's a state certified contractor. But they get three chances. And if they get cited three times, the fourth time we will write up the complaint under the ordinance and make a public hearing out of it. And then if you have the authority, you could take action on his license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: certified contractor before us? MR. NONNENMACHER: we? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. NONNENMACHER: But why wouldn't you bring a state Why would we or why wouldn't Why would you not? Well, we're only allowed to bring Page 42 September 17, 2003 state certified contractors due to willful code violations, fraud or insurance regulations. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. NONNENMACHER: CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So it doesn't apply to the citation? Doesn't apply to the unlicensed. Okay. Interesting. MR. NEALE: Unless, and this is a stretch that could be made, if this board could find -- and I want to talk to Mr. Zachary about this a little bit more -- that employing unlicensed contractors multiple times indicates a willful violation of the applicable building codes or laws of the state, city or Collier County. This board does have enforcement powers over state certified contractors then. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, the third time is a second degree felony. MR. NEALE: So there is a possibility, and that's something that Mr. Zachary and I will talk a little more, and we'll talk to Mr. Nonnenmacher about it. Because that may be a way to get the state certifieds in front of here, too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, we've had state certified before. MR. NEALE: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And when we've taken action on the state certifieds, say we revoke his license, which has happened, we can only revoke his permit privileges in Collier County. We cannot revoke him state-wide, but that's why we send the case and a recommendation to state, so they can take an action on it. And there have been a couple of cases where we have had representatives from the state licensing board here present to hear the case as well. MR. BLUM: The reality is, though, that if we don't catch him two more times with an unlicensed contractor representing him or the company he qualifies, he walks basically with impunity. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but with -- MR. BLUM: We've done it-- Page 43 September 17, 2003 MR. NONNENMACHER: Except for the fines. MR. BLUM: Huh? MR. NONNENMACHER: Except for the fines. MR. BLUM: Which we all agree we probably won't be able to collect, because it's not worth our while to take the legal action that will do it at 500 bucks. MR, NEALE: Except the nice thing is at least they can be recorded as certified copies in the public records of the state. So that CHAIRMAN DICKSON: second time? MR. HOOPINGARNER: CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I take it by the fine, this was his Yes, sir. Okay. Catch him once more. MR. BLUM: You do have an eye out. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wait till you meet Mr. Ossorio. MR. JOSLIN: Oh, boy. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He is like a rabid dog. They'll find-- if he comes back in Collier County to work, he will be found. I don't have any doubt whatsoever. MR. BLUM: Love it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion or new business to be brought before this board? MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes, Mr. Dickson. Have you gotten a copy of the 2003 legislative decisions regarding the Jim Walters Bill? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. MR. NONNENMACHER: Okay, we'll put that on the next agenda, we'll make copies of it and distribute it and have a discussion next week about it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What was it? In a nutshell. MR. NONNENMACHER: In a nutshell, it was that residential building or general can hire anyone they want on a single-family Page 44 September 17, 2003 house or a townhouse, as described by state statute. Any specialty contractor, without having a license. And the supervision does no longer have to be direct supervision, the -- it no longer has to be new construction, it could be repair, remodeling, anything they want to do on a single-family residence or townhouse, as described by state statute. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How did that get through? MR. NONNENMACHER: I don't know. Our organization, CLOFF, is still fighting it. They fought it right to the end and couldn't stop it. But they had a handshake agreement that they would revise it again. What that meant, I really don't know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: contractors? MR. NONNENMACHER: CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. NONNENMACHER: CHAIRMAN DICKSON: MR. NONNENMACHER: Who pushed it, the general Yeah. State. State certified contractors. State Home Building? Um-hum. MR. BLUM: Trying to get out of the workers' comp. requirements. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Workers' comp., look out. Most of the people don't know the changes there, and they are massive. Including the fines for fraud and the -- there's increased money for fraud division. Yeah, that's going to change drastically. Any other discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now I need a motion. MR. JOSLIN: Motion to adjourn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MS. KELLER: Second, Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? (Unanimous votes of ayes.) Page 45 September 17, 2003 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We are adjourned. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:23 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, CHAIRMAN Transcript prepared on behalf of Gregory Court Reporting Service, Inc., by Cherie' R. Nottingham. Page 46