Productivity Committee EMSAC Subcommittee Minutes 07/03/2008 EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES ADVISORY COUNCIL (EMSAC)
SUB-COMMITTEE AND PRODUCTIVITY COMMITTEE SUB-COMMITTEE
Thursday July 3,2008
COLLIER COUNTY EMS HEADQUARTERS
2705 South Horseshoe Drive,Naples, Fl 34104
9:30 A.M.
EMSAC District 1—Victoria DiNardo, Present
EMSAC District 4—Nancy Lascheid, Absent
Productivity Committee—Janet Vasey, Chairman, Present
Productivity Committee—Steve Harrison, Present
Productivity Committee—Joe Swaja, Absent
Productivity Committee—Gina Downs, Present
Meeting was called to order by Chairman Janet Vasey.
There was not a quorum present at this time, so no agenda or minutes could be adopted.
Janet asked that an additional agenda item be added for the AUIR calculations for new
stations.
Modular Units
Chief Page stated that at the last meeting he was asked to provide some additional
information on the modular stations. He provided some dimensions along with some cost
information for the Ave Maria station that was provided to us. He also provided some
information on the modular stations that Broward County is using. Gina asked if the
modular stations met the fire and hurricane standards. Chief Page explained that they
meet fire code, but in the event of a hurricane the crew would have to evacuate. Janet
asked if Ave Maria was providing just the land. Chief Page stated that in exchange for
impact fee credits they are providing the land and eventually they plan to build a
permanent structure to house not only EMS, but the fire department and the sheriff's
office as well. A question was asked regarding the difference in price between a hard
structure and a modular one. Artie Bay explained that we are in the process of finding
that out now. It will all depend on what will be required from the conditional use and the
LDC, as well as the cost for the SDP. Chief Page added that one thing he thought of
doing was purchasing two of these modular units and using them until the impact fee
monies are there to build the hard structure, then placing that modular unit to another
parcel of land that we own. Gina asked what would be done in the event of a hurricane.
Chief Page explained that currently we evacuate some stations and send the crews to the
shelters at schools, and that is what would be done for these stations as well. Chief Page
explained that by using a modular station there would be a financial savings. Artie
explained that we will have a better idea of that savings after the pre application meeting.
The question was asked regarding the location of these stations. Chief Page explained
that the plan now is to place one at Logan and Vanderbilt, and then we are in the process
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of placing a station on Goodlette road as a joint station with the wastewater department.
Janet inquired why we were going there because the response times didn't show a need in
that area. It seemed there was more a need in the Golden Gate area. She asked if there
has been any discussion with Chief Metzger about co-locating at their new station on
Collier Blvd. Chief Page stated that he has not had any conversation with Chief Metzger
recently, however the last time he asked about locating in that station GGFD was going to
charge too much for the rent. The other downside Chief Page pointed out was that when
you lease; you get nothing in return for future impact fees. Janet asked about the station
with the wastewater department and whether it would be a modular station or not. Chief
Page stated that some time ago there was a memorandum of understanding with the
wastewater department that they would co-locate there. However it's still a little in the
air as to whether we will build a hard structure with them, or we will be allowed land to
put a trailer on. Janet asked why we were still pursuing that area if there wasn't a need
based on response times. Chief Page explained that the response times are helped by the
ALS engines; however there is still a need for transports in the area. Also, we may not
be going there if the MOU doesn't go thru. In addition the process for that facility has
been going on for over a year.
Chief Murphy told the group that he has resigned his position on EMSAC, so therefore he
will no longer be a voting member of this subcommittee; however he plans to continue
attending these meetings.
AUIR Calculations for new stations
Janet asked everyone to start at page 178 of the Master Plan. Janet brought the other
members up to speed with the AUIR figures from last year, and the rationale of using
16,400 population instead of the 15,000 from years before. Gina asked Janet if this
would go back to an idea from the Productivity Committee to not use weighted
population figures. Janet stated that the Planning Commission is looking at seasonal
figures and deciding if we truly have a seasonal population, and if that population has a
factor in some County facilities. Janet asked Chief Page what he thought about the
methodology in the master plan. He stated that he was really impressed with the amount
of research that went into creating that methodology. They took a lot of things into
consideration including aging population. Chief Page stated that he thought the
population figure of 16,400 was what everyone agreed to use from now on, and not just a
temporary solution. He added that he has used that number in calculating the AUIR
amongst other things thinking that was what we would use. However he added that he
isn't opposed to re-looking at the number. Chief Murphy asked if the AUIR had to be
based on population, or if it could be based on geographical demand also. Chief Page
explained that it had to be tied to population for impact fee purposes. Chief Murphy
suggested shifting the impact fee calculation from being based only on population to
including your response needs also. He added that his impact fee calculation in Marco
Island is based on service need and response demand not necessarily on the population of
the city. Janet added that in the past the county has looked at doing something like this.
She stated that at the time the sheriff's office started collecting impact fees they used
their calls of service as a workload indicator to calculate impact fees, and once it went to
legal review it was denied. The attorneys decided that wasn't a proper method to
determining impact fees. She added that while she feels using response times and
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demand as a method makes sense, the final review won't let it go thru. Then considering
we couldn't use that for impact fees, we can't use it for the AUIR. Janet went back to
trying to figure out a method of determining the future number of units. She stated that
she had a hard time figuring out the methodology used by the consultants in the master
plan. Chief Page stated that one of the advantages of using the master plans charts is that
they took the aging population into account. That is something that as a department we
weren't able to calculate. One thing that Chief Page said we may be able to do is use
Chief Murphy's suggestion and back up the population trigger to support all of the
different items, like response times and geographical demand. If that population trigger
number is calculated to include all those things it may be able to be used. He also stated
that in the past he was asked why he didn't use the same calculations that Lee County
uses. Lee County determines their growth units by the number of calls for service.
Anytime the number increases by 2,500 at the end of the year triggers another growth
unit. He stated the national standard for population calculations is 7.7% of population
dictates the need for an ambulance. He stated that he has looked at the number and
plugged it in for us, and we are pretty close to meeting that standard. Janet asked Chief
Murphy if the group could see a copy of his impact fee calculation to possibly trigger
some thought with ours. Janet asked Chief Page what things he feels should be included
in the calculation. Chief Page said that there are some things that can skew the data
completely, like concurrent calls. Those things cannot be controlled, and just the other
day we had 6 units tied up at one hospital. Janet asked if a reference to alpha, bravo, and
charlie calls would be appropriate to add in. Chief Page explained that just recently he
along with Dr. Tober, Chief Murphy and another fire chief worked together to identify
types of calls that one or the other unit would go to, along with calls that both units would
go to. Collectively they identified around 33 calls that one or the other unit/truck would
go on alone and there has since been no response from the fire departments to implement
a standard like that. Chief Murphy stated that another problem with this is the CAD
system in place is currently having a hard time sorting the units we have. Chief Page also
stated that all the departments are different, and they respond differently to calls. So until
there is a merger of all the departments, something like this will probably never happen.
Chief Murphy stated that he was willing to use his department as a "beta" site to test this
type of new organization. Janet asked Jorge Aguilera of North Naples Fire Department
who happened to be in the audience if he thought North Naples would also be willing to
be a "beta" site. Jorge said that he could definitely bring it up, and he doesn't see a
reason they would be opposed to it, considering Chief Brown was the other chief
involved in identifying the different calls and organizing them. However, he did say that
without a CAD system in place there is a large margin for error. We have tried before to
place a command staff person in the dispatch center to decide who goes when and to what
calls. However that requires personnel, money, and the sheriff's office to agree to let our
staff supervise their staff. Gina asked when the CAD system would be complete. Chief
Page stated that it will probably be another 2 years.
Gina also asked if there was a plan to not lease stations anymore, and start building
outright. Chief Page stated that would be his recommendation, however the Board makes
the final decision. The only exceptions would be places like golden gate where it was
more important to get the unit there then build the station, or in the City of Naples where
we wouldn't be able to afford to buy land there. Janet added that at the last impact fee
review the recommendation was to buy every chance you can. However that is a difficult
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now because there isn't the money to buy. So it is a balancing act and there can't really
be a rule that goes across the board to buy. It should be looked at instead on a case by
case basis. Gina stated that the reason she was asking was because she is big on MSBU's
and thought they would work well for us. Chief Page stated that unfortunately the fire
departments can utilize MSBU's but EMS cannot.
With the addition of Steve Harrison we now have a quorum. Janet brought him up to
speed with the discussion.
Janet stated that she feels this discussion should be continued to another meeting, and she
would like to see this group make a recommendation for the calculations for the AUIR.
She also added that we should be looking at a solution that works for the next five years,
because if the consolidation of fire and EMS happens all this will have to be recalculated.
Steve asked about the calculations and if the 16,400 was a decision or just an option.
Janet stated that was what was used this last year. Chief Page and she had a difference
recollection of that number. Chief Page thought that was a number that we would
continue to use, while Janet thought that number was a temporary fix until they got a
chance to review the master plan. Chief Page stated that if we continue to use the 16,400
calculation that wouldn't call for another growth unit this next year, even after the
elimination of two units. Additionally, the number of units directly relates to the ALS
engines. If one or two departments drop out of the ALS program that will drastically
effect the response times, or on the other side, if another department joins the ALS
program it will effect positively effect response times. Just because the plan calls for a
growth unit in 2010, doesn't mean the Board has to put it up if there is no need for it
according to response times. Janet asked that if for some reason a department does drop
out of the ALS program, would we be able to add a unit fairly quickly. Chief Page said
that we could do that fairly quickly by hiring from within the part time staff. Steve asked
if we would be able to approach some of the fire departments to see if they plan to add or
drop engines within the AUIR period. Janet stated that she didn't think they would really
know that far ahead. Janet asked Chief Page if the final decision to put new units up was
the response time data. Chief Page stated that does come into play, however in the past
when we were shifted from a permanent population figure to a weighted population, he
asked the Board for 2 units, and they made him add 4 because he was in such a deficit.
Janet asked if they were looking at his response times. Chief Page said, they looked at
the AUIR, but the response times did come into play.
Chief Page stated that he would like to see a recommendation from the group on the idea
of modular units. He stated that the next meeting would probably be the time to do that,
as we will have more information on the costs after the pre-application meeting. Janet
brought up the idea of utilizing old trailers from schools. Chief Page stated that he tried
that, but they would never meet building codes, plus most of them are very old. Janet
asked how these would be purchased. Chief Page stated that his idea was to purchase
two thru impact fees and use them as temporary facilities until we had the money to build
the permanent. Chief Page stated that we are going to be finding out if this is really cost
effective, considering the possibility of having to build the slab, and the wall, and all the
other permanent things. Gina brought up possibly using the impact fee money to build
the permanent parts, like the slab and driveways; until you have the money then you can
put build the permanent structure on top. Janet stated that at the next meeting if we have
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more information on the costs, we can make a recommendation. She would also like to
make a recommendation at the next meeting on the AUIR.
Motion to approve minutes from April 18th; passed unanimously
Motion to approve minutes from June 4th; passed unanimously
Janet asked that someone follow up with Chief Murphy and get the impact fee
calculations he offered to give.
Public comment
No public comment
General committee comment
No additional committee comment
Respectfully Submitted,
Jennifer Florin
Date Adopted:
Chairman/ SubCommittee Member Signature