DSAC Minutes 06/11/2003 RJune 11, 2003
DEVELOPMENT SERVICES ADVISORY COMMITTEE
Conference Room "E"
2800 North Horseshoe Drive, Naples, Florida
2:00 PM June 11, 2003 (continued from June 4, 2003)
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Development Services Sub-committee, in and
for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 2:00
PM in REGULAR SESSION in Conference Room "E" of 2800 North Horseshoe
Drive, Naples, Florida, with the following members present:
Members:
Peter Van Arsdale
Dalas D. Disney
Justin Martin
Tom Peek
Marco A. Espinar (left at ~4:55PM)
Robert Mulhere
Herb Savage (arrived at 2:33PM)
Robert Duane (left at -4:55PM)
Brian Jones
Thomas Masters
Collier County Staff:
Russell Webb, Nancy Siemion, Russ Muller, Patrick White (arrived at
2:23PM), Stan Chrzanowski (arrived at 2:43PM), Susan Murray (arrived at
2:44PM)
Members of the Public:
Deborah Forester - Bonita Bay Group (left at 3:07PM)
David Ellis - CBIA
Dennis Church - Bonita Bay Group (left at 3:07PM)
Page 1
DEVELOPMENT SERVICES ADVISORY COMMITTEE
AGENDA
June 4, 2003
2~00 P.M.
I. Approval of Agenda- Minutes-May 7, 2003 Meeting
II. Staff Announcements
A. Development Services Division Update
B. Transportation Division Update
C. Public Utilities Division Update
III. Old Business
IV. Subcommittee Reports
A. Land Development Regulation (Bob Duane)
B. Budget and Operations (Dino Longo)
C. Utility Code (Justin Martin)
V. New Business
A. Parks Indexing. Amy Patterson
VI. Committee Member Comments
June 11, 2003
I. Call to Order
-The continued meeting, (continued from June 4, 2003), was called to order at -2:15PM.
II. Preliminary Subdivision Plats
-Mr. Duane stated that he spoke with Mr. Schmitt about the PSP, (preliminary
subdivision plats), being either eliminated or retained as an option in the code.
Mr. Duane reported that both Mr. Schmitt and Mr. Cook saw a need for this
action. Mr. Duane felt that this modification should be drafted into this LDC
amendment cycle rather than the next cycle.
-Mr. Duane made a motion to recommend to the director that this item be
included in the current LDC amendment cycle rather than the next. It was
seconded by Mr. Peek.
-Mr. Van Arsdale asked if there was anyway to get rid of this without having to
make a modification in the LDC. Mr. Duane replied that it would require a
modification to the LDC; either remove the amendment or make it optional. Mr.
Mulhere supported making this amendment an optional item. Mr. Webb stated
that they do not have the staff time to do this modification until LDC Amendment
Cycle 3. He added that this "came down from Joe" Schmitt. Mr. Duane stated
that he was willing to have a special meeting in order to facilitate the process.
-The motion was recalled. All were in favor of the motion. The motion passed
unanimously.
-Mr. Mulhere offered his assistance in drafting the amendment. Mr. Van Arsdale
stated that they would write a letter to the director informing him of their
recommendation and offering both professional and committee help.
III. DSAC meeting on July 2, 2003
-A meeting is scheduled for July 2nd' 2003, but the committee was concerned that
staff would not notify the members if a quorum could not be present. Mr. Webb
felt that staff time did not need to be devoted to determining whether or not a
quorum would be present, but that this was the responsibility of the committee
members. Mr. Masters agreed; he believed that the members were responsible to
notify staff if they would be absent. Mr. Mulhere agreed, but added that staff
Page 2
June 11, 2003
should notify the members if they find that a quorum will not be present after they
receive cancellation calls. Mr. Webb agreed with Mr. Mulhere. Mr. Van Arsdale
felt that it was the responsibility of staff to stay on top of the attendance.
-Mr. Peek suggested that staff email the members to ensure attendance or staff
could add a message on the bottom of the agenda that stated: "it will be assumed
that you will be present at the meeting, if you fail to respond to this email". Mr.
Webb stated that he could agree with this comment being listed on the agenda, but
cautioned that staff's time is devoted to assisting four committees.
IV. Cycle 2 2003 LDC Amendments
A) Section 2.4.3.5 - Landscaping and Buffering
-Mr. Webb noted there was a revision to this amendment that changed the
distance from 10ft to 12.5fi.
-Mr. Disney asked why they were changing this by 2.5ft. Nancy Siemion stated
that they were attempting to remove the light poles from under the tree canopies.
She clarified that staff was primarily concerned with the light poles being placed
in the islands. Mr. Disney did not feel that 2.5ft was enough.
-Mr. Mulhere stated that people wanted to put the light poles in green-space
because they are more attractive and protected there. Nancy Siemion noted that
they are not functional if the light is blocked by trees.
-Mr. Peek asked if this amendment prohibited placing accent lighting on trees.
Nancy Siemion stated that it did not; only parking lot/sight lighting.
-Mr. Disney felt that pushing the light fixtures "out" would be less attractive.
Nancy Siemion disagreed and added that functionality was the primary goal.
-Mr. Martin asked if they could eliminate the trees. Nancy Siemion stated that
they could not, but suggested separate islands for the light pole.
-All the committee members supported the amendment.
B) Section 2.4.4.18.1 - Landscaping and Buffering
-Mr. Peek felt that creating a low-berm at a uniform height was unattractive and
added that nature is not uniform. Mr. Disney agreed and added that a maximum
Page 3
June 11, 2003
height of 12ft would not address sound buffering to the extent desired by some
developments.
-Mr. Martin stated that "no steeper than 10-1" should be used rather than
"minimum slope". Nancy Siemion agreed to the change.
-Mr. Martin asked why sod could not be used as a stabilizer instead of an "erosion
control fabric". Nancy Siemion stated that it was because the slopes were 2-1.
Mr. Martin pointed out that the slope could be 4-1. Nancy Siemion stated that the
wording was misleading and it was meant to be a 2-1 slope. For purposes of
clarity, Mr. Mulhere suggested the words: "for berms with a slope steeper than x,
an erosion control fabric shall be utilized". Nancy Siemion agreed, adding that
the slope would be 2-1.
-Mr. Martin asked what the "centerline" was and that a point of clarification be
placed into this portion of the amendment.
-For clarity purposes, Mr. Disney suggested that they use the words: "tow of slope
of the berm must be located..." instead of"the base of the berm".
-Nancy Siemion asked that the committee establish a height for the berms that
would be acceptable. Mr. Peek stated that he would rather see "performance
standards or criteria" listed in the code rather than a uniform height.
-Dennis Church, Bonita Bay Group, stated that this amendment took the tow of
slope from 5ft-10ft, which in effect takes 5ft-10ft from people's property size.
-Mr. Mulhere made a motion to recommend denial of the amendment as written
and to recommend that staff rewrite the amendment to develop specific
performance standards that would address staff concerns relative to berms. It was
seconded by Mr. Peek.
-Mr. Martin added that he would also like to see the specification that erosion
control fabric will only be used on 2-1 slope or steeper. Mr. Mulhere and Mr.
Peek included this in the motion. All were in favor of the motion; the motion
passed unanimously.
C) Section 2.4.5.2.1 - Landscaping and Buffering
-Mr. Martin asked how you measured within 15ft of another building's view. He
asked that "view" be defined.
Page 4
June 11, 2003
-Mr. Martin asked what the purpose was for the last sentence, "If rooftop parking
is not .... ". Nancy Siemion stated that they were trying to make up for "lost"
landscaping. Mr. Mulhere felt that this was a "punishment" for someone who
chose to build vertically. Mr. Mulhere explained that that the purpose of
vehicular landscaping was lighting and aesthetics, therefore if there was no
surface parking, then there was no need to make the landscaping "more aesthetic".
-Mr. Disney stated that there are larger issues than the landscaping. He listed his
concerns: the distance of 1500ft, how does the trellis on the roof of the parking
structure affect allowable building height, the costs are substantial, appearance vs.
type 1 & type 2 non-combustible construction, is there a need for a trellis on top a
roof that is completely shaded, where is the trellis to be placed, this is an
architectural design issue on top of a building not a landscaping issue, and offset
increased landscaping of the ground that is not necessary. Mr. Disney asked staff
to consider the large implications with what they are asking to be done and added
that this amendment does not clearly identify them.
-Mr. Mulhere stated that the 2nd paragraph should be rewritten to clarify that all or
some portion of the displaced landscaping be utilized as parking structure
perimeter landscaping to soften the appearance. He also noted that the first
paragraph should clarify "1500ft from another building and if the rooftop parking
is visible from that building".
-Mr. Peek asked that the limitation of 1500ft be removed and that the amendment
state that any parking structure with rooftop parking should have a trellis on it.
He didn't agree that the structure should be required, but he felt that if it was
required, then they needed to be consistent. Susan Murray stated that they could
revise the amendment as Mr. Peek suggested. She also noted that they could
revise the amendment with respect to the additional landscaping, clarifying the
intent of buffering the parking structure itself.
-Mr. Van Arsdale was against requiring landscaping on the rooftop of a parking
structure, since it is a "building".
-Mr. Martin wanted to leave this portion of the LDC as is and did not support the
proposed amendment.
Page 5
June 11, 2003
-Mr. Mulhere made a motion to recommend that this amendment be revised to
eliminate any rooftop landscaping required for parking structures, but support
requiring foundation landscaping around parking structures as long as the staff
develops more specific language relating to this. It was seconded by Mr. Savage.
-Mr. ]ylartin felt that if the parking structure required additional landscaping, then
it should be required consistently throughout the code.
-Mr. Disney felt that the architectural issues should be relocated into section 2.8.
-The motion was recalled. All were in favor of the motion; the motion passed
unanimously.
D) Section 2.4.5.4 - Landscaping and Buffering
-Nancy Siemion stated that the only change was that the old item #2 is now item
#1 and they are removing the words "beginning on June 1, 2002".
-All the committee members supported the amendment.
E) Section 2.4.6.6 - Landscaping and Buffering
-Mr. Martin asked why "building perimeter" was being changed to "foundation".
Nancy Siemion informed him that staff felt foundation would be a more accurate
word to describe what it is.
-Nancy Siemion stated that the changes were primarily on page 27 with the table.
She explained that this amendment was a BCC request.
-Mr. Disney felt that this amendment consumed so much land that it reduced the
density, usable land, and that it takes away individual property rights.
-Mr. Mulhere stated that he could understand a need for more setback from
building height, but this amendment consequently reduces building height. Susan
Murray stated that she believed this was an "unintended" consequence and she
would need to take a closer look at the amendment and make sure that the intent
works.
-Mr. Disney made a motion to recommend denial of the amendment, because the
formulas do not work. The motion also included a request that this amendment be
revised and that it returns before DSAC for review.
Page 6
June 11, 2003
-Mr. Mulhere suggested that the motion be amended to consider the volume of
perimeter planting rather than the width. Mr. Disney did not agree and did not
amend his motion.
-The motion was recalled. Mr. Mulhere seconded the motion. All were in favor
of the motion; the motion passed unanimously.
F) Section 2.4.7.2 - Landscaping and Buffering
-Mr. Disney felt that 90days was too short. Susan Murray stated that the BCC
requested 90days, because they want non-conforming sites brought into
compliance sooner. Susan Murray explained that issues arising with this
amendment will be covered in the zoning certificate process and that the
amendment is really 90days "to the maximum extent possible".
-Mr. Mulhere felt that 90days was reasonable.
-Mr. Arsdale felt that it was an "onerous" process.
-Mr. Mulhere asked how this would apply to a multi-unit building. Susan Murray
replied that it would be "to maximum extent possible". Mr. Van Arsdale stated
that this allows for a "lack of standard law" and that there would be a need for too
many staff interpretations. Susan Murray replied staff does not have many
complaints from this and that staff is focusing on the older, degrading sites and
the sites without handicap parking spaces.
-Mr. Peek made a motion to recommend support of the amendment. It was
seconded by Mr. Mulhere. The motion passed: (Mr. Jones & Mr. Disney were
opposed).
G) Section 2.4.7.3 - Landscaping and Buffering
-Mr. Martin noted that on page 30 - at the top of the page- where it states "not
less than", the words should be changed to "not steeper than". Susan Murray
agreed with this.
-Mr. Mulhere noted that on page 30 - #2 where it states "the narrow and steep",
the words should be changed to "narrow and steep". In the second line he pointed
out that it would be acceptable to say "these nan'ow and steep wet or dry
management areas".
Page 7
June 11, 2003
-Mr. Duane was bothered by doing this, ("putting a wiggle on"), to dry retention
areas. Mr. Disney stated that this does not make sense in a dry retention area.
Mr. Espinar added that it made no sense to create an ordinance that negates the
primary purpose, (conveyance, water quality, & storage), and makes the
secondary purpose, (aesthetics), more important.
-Mr. Duane made a motion that on page 30 - under "Configuration of water
management areas" - that the words "dry retention areas" be removed.
-Mr. Mulhere suggested that they strike those words and say "applicable to wet
retention areas" instead of "including wet retention areas. Mr. Peek suggested
removing both wet and dry retention areas and have the amendment read: "The
shape ofa manmade body of water must be designed to appear natural...". Mr.
Duane agreed with Mr. Peek's suggestion.
-Mr. Duane amended his motion to strike "including wet and dry
detention/retention areas". It was seconded by Marco Espinar.
-Mr. Martin asked that the motion be amended to include "steeper than" rather
than "not less than" on Page 30 and to replace "with the maximum slope" with the
words "steeper than or equal to 4-1" on Page 31. Mr. Duane and Mr. Espinar
amended their motions to include these changes.
-Mr. Disney stated that Page 31 - Item B, "A public access pier with covered
structure and seating component", creates an attractive nuisance and an insurance
problem for the client when it is a required element. He suggested the removal of
item B.
-Mr. Mulhere noted that the amendment changes were confusing and requested
that the old language and the proposed language be available when this comes
back. Staff agreed to this.
-The motion was recalled, not including the suggestion of Mr. Disney. All were
in favor of the motion; the motion passed unanimously.
-Mr. Dalas made a motion to remove Item B from page 31 and require one of the
two remaining choices. It was seconded by Mr. Mulhere. All were in favor of the
motion; the motion passed unanimously.
H) Section 2.4.7.4 - Landscaping and Buffering
Page 8
June 11, 2003
-Mr. Disney stated that this amendment was very difficult to read. Nancy
Siemion clarified that this was a reinstatement of a LDC code that had been
removed in the year "2000". The "2000" code is now being proposed because the
current code is creating a loss of required vegetation and overcrowding of the
vegetation. Nancy Siemion provided photos to the committee that displayed the
loss of vegetation and overcrowding. (Photos were not provided to the court
reporter.)
-Mr. Mulhere felt that a 20ft buffer between two commercial properties was an
excessive amount.
-Mr. Duane asked staff if they considered the sub-committees suggestion to
require this only on larger lots. Nancy Siemion stated that she considered it, but
did not agree with the suggestion.
-Mr. Savage stated that he could agree with 5ft & 5fi, but not requiring 10ft
&l Oft. Nancy Siemion stated that the BCC was concerned about a lack of green-
space on commercial properties.
-Mr. White reminded the committee that they are an advisory committee to the
BCC and they need to balance board direction with their advice. He asked that if
the committee did not support an item, then would they explain why or advise
alternatives.
-Mr. Disney noted that consistently through the amendments, the fiscal impact is
reported as none, when in fact the fiscal impact is large. Mr. White explained that
the fiscal impact listed on the amendment reports is the county's fiscal impact,
and not an economic analysis for the private individual. Mr. Mulhere noted that
this portion of the report was originally intended to cover the fiscal impacts on the
county and of the people being regulated by the code. Mr. Martin suggested that
two items be listed on the reports: fiscal impacts to the county and fiscal impacts
to the community. Mr. White replied that while fiscal impacts may be part of the
review, the fiscal impact alone should not be the reason to deny an amendment.
He asked that the committee give staff"positive's & negative's on public policy
that the board can look at". Mr. Savage stated that the committee represents the
industry and therefore the BCC should here all concerns, including fiscal impacts.
Page 9
June 11,2003
-Mr. Mulhere made a motion to recommend approval of the amendment, but not
supporting the increase of the landscape buffers from 10ft - 20ft. It was seconded
by Mr. Duane. The motion passed, (Mr. Jones & Mr. Disney were opposed).
I) Section 2.4.7.5 - Landscaping and Buffering
-Mr. Martin asked that quantifiable standards be placed into the amendment rather
than referring to the "Collier Naplescape 90's Streetscape Master Plan". If the
change was not made, then he felt that the master plan should be placed on a
website where it would be easily accessible to the public. Mr. Disney agreed with
these comments. Susan Murray stated that they will revise this amendment and
bring it back for review by the committee meeting on July 2nd, 2003.
J) Section 2.6.9.1 & 2.6.9.2 - Essential Services
-Mr. Duane made a motion to recommend approval of this amendment. It was
seconded by Mr. Mulhere. All were in favor of the motion; the motion passed
unanimously.
K) Section 2.6.11 - Fences
-Mr. Martin asked why chain link and wood fences had to be a minimum of 100fi
from the public right-of-way, Page 43 - Item lA. Mr. Disney stated that he had
asked the same question and the reason was, primarily, so that no one sees the
chain link fence.
-Mr. Mulhere made a suggestion for a language correction that would clarify
exemptions. Susan Murray agreed to make the changes.
-Mr. Martin noted that on Page 43 - lB it states "fences shall not exceed 4 feet in
height", but other parts of the code say 3 feet. Susan Murray stated that she
would look into this.
-Mr. Disney referred to the bottom of page 43, where the code reads: the walls
and the fences on commercial properties, contiguous to commercially non-
residential developments ....". He stated that this has been a problem on past
projects and asked that this statement be removed from the code. Susan Murray
stated that a variance can be granted if there is a problem with this situation. Mr.
Mulhere suggested placing in the code that someone could apply for a variance
Page 10
June 11, 2003
and that someone could ask for a deviation during the zoning process. Susan
Murray agreed to this change.
L) Section 2.7.2.3.5 - Zoning Amendment Procedures
-Mr. Duane noted that the subcommittee supported this amendment and felt that it
was a good change.
-Mr. Webb stated that there was a second change made; modification of the time
period for advertising requirements on the neighborhood informational meeting.
-Mr. Mulhere suggested that the amendment would be best to say that one must
have it a minimum amount of time before the planning commission review
instead of"shall have it within 30days". Mr. Duane agreed with this suggestion.
-Mr. Mulhere made a motion to change the words "within 30days of the receipt of
the initial round of comments" to the words "at least 14 days preceding the
planning commission meeting". It was seconded by Mr. Duane.
-On Page 2 the amendment reads: "the advertisement shall be placed within the
newspaper and general circulation within the county at least 7 days prior to, but
not sooner than 10days before. Mr. Martin felt that this was too short a
timeframe. Mr. Mulhere agreed. Mr. Van Arsdale suggested 21 days and 7 days.
-Mr. Mulhere and Mr. Duane amended the motion and the second to include this
suggestion. All were in favor of the motion; the motion passed unanimously.
-Mr. White asked if the motion was intended to be specific to the meeting of the
CCPC or if it meant the first of the subsequent meetings; EAC or CCPC.
-Mr. Mulhere made an amendment to his motion to add the EAC: "a minimum of
14 days prior to the meeting of the EAC or the CCPC, whichever is first". Mr.
Duane amended his second. All were in favor of the motion; the motion passed
unanimously.
M) Section 2.7.3.6 - Zoning Amendment Procedures
-Mr. Chrzanowski stated that Joe Schmitt does not like the idea of making a
professional engineer responsible; rather he wants to find a responsible party that
is likely a CEO of the corporation. Mr. Mulhere did not believe that it should be a
VP and felt that all that would be needed is an affidavit. He suggested that they
place in the amendment the words: "the truthfulness of this document shall be
Page 11
June 11, 2003
attested to by the owner or authorized agent, evident by an affidavit". Mr. White
stated that this could be appropriate, but that agent would have to understand that
by being designated, they are making a statement, that if false, is considered
perjury and punishable by law.
-Mr. Martin made a motion to use the wording "...the monitoring report must be
in the form of an affidavit and be executed by the property owner or an authorized
agent ...... ". Mr. Duane seconded the motion. All were in favor of the motion;
the motion passed unanimously.
N) The following amendments were voted on together.
Section 2.7.7 - Affordable Housing Density bonus
Section 6.1.4 - Day Definition
Section 6.3 - Definitions
-Mr. Duane made a motion that these amendments be approved; they were heard
by the subcommittee and supported. Mr. Masters seconded the motion. All were
in favor of the motion; the motion passed unanimously.
O) Section 3.2.8.4.16.21 - Sidewalk Parking
-Mr. Martin stated that he did not support Item #21, because there was no
exemption for existing subdivisions. Mr. Webb noted that legislation cannot be
applied retroactively. Mr. Martin noted that the review is during the "building
permit time". Mr. Mulhere added that it could be a problem if not all of the units
have been constructed at the time the amendment is adopted. Mr. Webb agreed
and stated that some language may need to be changed in the amendment. Mr.
White stated that if the FSP is "through" by the date that this amendment becomes
effective, then this regulation would not apply.
-Mr. Mulhere suggested the words: "...or plans must ensure that parked vehicles
will not interfere with pedestrian sidewalks" instead of the words"...must
demonstrate how car(s) will safely fit in the driveway". Mr. Webb agreed to the
change. Mr. White asked if the same thing should apply to the corresponding
item in Section 3.3.7.9 - #15. Mr. Mulhere stated that it should. Mr. Webb noted
that the same language would need to be applied in the Bay Shore Overlay as
well.
Page 12
June 11, 2003
-Mr. Martin made a motion to add a sentence stating "...however existing PUD's
specifying the garage or accessory structure setbacks shall prevail...", and to
include Mr. Mulhere's suggestion (referring back to the sidewalks) that was
agreed to by Russell Webb. It was seconded by Mr. Mulhere. All were in favor
of the motion; the motion passed unanimously.
* Some of the packets referred to at this meeting were distributed at previous
DSAC meetings and were not provided to the court reporter in attendance at this
meeting.
V. Adjournment
-There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was
adjourned by order of the Chair at 5:10PM.
Collier County
Development Services Committee
Chairman Peter Van Arsdale
Page 13