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BCC Minutes 04/15/2003 W (Livingston Road Extension - Corridor Study)Apfil15,2003 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY LIVINGSTON ROAD EXTENSION/NORTH-SOUTH CORRIDOR STUDY WORKSHOP Naples, Florida, April 15, 2003 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Livingston Road Extension/North-South Comdor Study Workshop in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 AM in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Commissioner Tom Henning Commissioner Donna Fiala Commissioner Fred Coyle Commissioner Jim Coletta Commissioner Frank Halas ALSO PRESENT: Jim Mudd, Collier County Manager Norman Feder, Transportation Director Don Scott, Transportation Joe Quincy, Transportation Robert Rutledge, TBE Group Livingston Road Extension/North-South Corridor Study Workshop Tuesday, April 15, 2003 9 a.m. Board of County Commissioners Chambers " AGENDA' IV. V. VI. Wcicomc and Introductions Presentation by Transportation Planning D~panment Staff' Questions and Comments from BOard of County Commissionem Questions and Comments fi'om Pubtic ConcIusion Adjournment Apfil15,2003 LIVINGSTON ROAD EXTENSION/NORTH-SOUTH CORRIDOR STUDY WORKSHOP Pledge of Allegiance was recited. I. Welcome and Introductions: Chairman Commissioner Henning welcomed all the residents and guests. After the presentation public speakers were encouraged to fill out a sign-up sheet in the lobby and are limited to 3 minutes. Commissioner Henning has to meet with the Constitutional Officers at 10:00 AM and asked the Vice Chairman Commissioner Fiala to conduct the Workshop at that time. County Manager Jim Mudd mentioned to the audience that due to fire codes and a full room, there are TV's and seating in the lobby and also in Building "C". The reason for the Workshop is discussing all the Alternatives concerning the extension of Livingston Road and concerns with the public in knowing what the future holds. All the options will be heard. II. Presentation by Transportation Planning Department Staff: Norman Feder gave a brief overview of the Workshop and stated they are trying to meet the transportation needs for Collier County. He discussed: Overpass being important to East Naples- otherwise problems with North/South movement pushing traffic to Davis and Airport. Santa Barbara/Logan If no extension south of Livingston - will put pressure on Santa Barbara/Logan and Extension but also on Airport and Davis and prospect for second Gordon River crossing. - Ideal would be Polly to 41 like original plans were. - Now Polly/Rattlesnake to 951 - Need to make fit within the community and also balance issues to meet mobility needs of the entire County. - Has been an 18 month study and many meetings with Homeowners Assn. - Need to come to a final decision. Don Scott- Transportation Planning: Gave a history of why they started to look at the long range plan for the area. A power point presentation was given. - No good solutions. - 2 Public Meetings held - 350-400 people -more than 900 comments - Land costs and construction costs were discussed in meetings - Will lay out alternatives and get input from the BCC and Public Joe Quincy - Principal Planner Transportation Planning: He walked everyone through the alternatives. (There were 34 alternatives analyzed) Presentation covered: Handout (attached) 2 April 15, 2003 - Study areas - Long Range Plan - 5 year plan - Alternatives Developed and Analyzed/Key categories: Livingston Road Extension (Directly South) FPL Easement Multiple Two-lane connections New Gordon River Bridge - Airport-Pulling Road alternatives - Santa Barbara Blvd. Extension - He showed 20 and 25 years out. Alternatives were shown and gone over in detail according to the presentation along with the pros and cons. Livingston Road directly South to Davis: Costs: Acquisition - $16.4M, Replacement -$308,000, Construction - $3.8M, Total= $20.5M - Livingston Road directly to US 41: - Costs: Acquisition- $21.9M, Replacement - $340,000, Construction - $6.5M, Total= $28.7M - Livingston Road - FPL Easement: - Covered area such as: Livingston to Radio, Radio to Davis, Davis to Rattlesnake, and Davis to Rattlesnake, areas in Briarwood, Maplewood, Leawood/Foxfire, Moon Lake, Kings Lake, Crown Pointe, Riviera, Queens Park, Riviera Colony, and Rattlesnake Hammock. Commissioner Henning would like data on the destination of people using Livingston. Mr. Quincy responded that it is split with slightly over half going toward Santa Barbara and 951 rather than the City of Naples. They have the information, but did not do a presentation on the facts. (Commissioner Henning left at 9:50 AM.) The different PUD's are in the long range plan except for Ave Maria University. Commissioner Fiala asked if it is the work force traveling and only a few hours of the day. Don Scott responded with where all the traffic is going during peak hours and onto the different roadways. Bob Rutledge - Consultant TUBE Group - reported on where all the traffic was going. In 2025 traffic was extending into Lee County- coming from the South East - avoiding 41 and coming up Santa B~bara extension or County Barn Road and taking Livingston into Lee County. There were more trips than they thought. April 15, 2003 Commissioner Coletta wondered if there would have been a need for the road if Foxfire was open as before. The response was that it wouldn't solve all their problems. Mr. Quincy continued with his presentation of the FPL easement. Burying the lines is not possible due to the fact that each circuit requires certain width. The width required for those circuits is wider than 110 feet they have in the easements. For the four circuits they are talking about - 50 feet is needed for each circuit which is 200 feet which they only have 110 of. - Traffic Impacts were surprising & covered in the presentation map. Davis and Santa Barbara congested and over capacity. Capacity different on each roadway. Mr. Rutledge talked about the daily traffic the roadway can handle and the modeling. - They base the traffic studies on the Collier County long range transportation adopted plan. - The model is a State model. Commissioner Coyle asked about not building roads to the peak season. The response was the model gives them peak season and is then backed down to average daily traffic. Commissioner Halas asked about concurrency. Don Scott responded capacities are reflective of the 250th highest hour. months are taken out. Then the two Commissioner Coyle mentioned the pattern of development is changing and pushing more commercial further East to serve the communities built there - reducing the traffic going East and West along the traditional corridors. How does the model take that into consideration? Don Scott said Eve Maria isn't in the model and that will change things. They are going to update new models. Norm Feder felt they are taking aggressive action because of the capacity and will be able to get new figures as soon as they get the new modeling. Commissioner Coletta mentioned the future growth will be in District 5. Can only work with what they have and be careful about speculating. The best of any model will never be completed. Livingston Road/FPL Easement - Costs: (FPL) Acquisition of ROW - $5.4M, Replacement - $4.0+M, Construction - $11.5M, Total= $20.9+M Livingston with Multiple Two-Lane Connections between Radio Road & Davis Blvd. Donna Street-Lakewood Blvd link April 15, 2003 - Remove Gates on Kings Way (Foxfire) - Remove gates on Glen Eagle Blvd. Remove gates on Countryside Drive. Commissioner Halas - need to have interconnectivity, can't build a mote around everything and think it is going to be all okay. Joe continued to look at the different variations and gave the different problems they could encounter. - Better for the system if gates wouldn't have been put on Foxfire and closed Kings Way. Before it was closed, it attracted 8-9,000 cars per day, and running the modeling about 15-20,000 cars per day on all four roads. The Homeowners own the right of way to the center line of the road. They would have to buy the right of way back from everyone that lives along that area for a 2 lane road and may be hard to prove it is a public benefit when under 5 years ago it was vacated and now wants it back? May want to ask if it is worth it? - Costs & Estimated Impacts: Numerous Legal Issues, Further Acquisition and Replacement Research Needed, Construction Costs - $11.7M, Total=Undetermined. Break- 10:30 AM Reconvened - 10:45 AM County Manager Jim Mudd introduced Major General Chuck Henry - President of National Veterans Business Development Corp.- The President created the position in 2001 - He has experience in Defense Contract Management and has had several commands and was awarded the Bronze Star. The Corporation was created to assist veterans including service disabled veterans and the formation and expansion of small business concerns. Major General Henry thanked the Commissioners for the proclamation and their support. He talked about Public Law 10650. It talks about entrepreneurship and building businesses. They create jobs and opportunities, pay taxes and lubricate the capitalistic system. The President of the United States appoints a 9 member Board of Directors for promotion purposes. They use a program called "Fast Track" which teaches people to be successful business men and women. They have created a process in Collier County t6 bring Veterans in to teach a 10 and 12 week course. In combination with Gateway they provide the Veterans, which complete the course, with $670 computer equipment plus training and education with the Gateway program. He thanked them for providing and offering this opportunity. Mr. Quincy continued with the Workshop in explaining the new Gordon River Crossing possibility. He presented: 5 April 15, 2003 - South Gordon River Bridge - Central Avenue and North Road to Livingston Extension - North Gordon River Bridge -7th Avenue North and Enterprise Avenue to Livingston Road - "Hybrid" Gordon River Bridge - Central Avenue and Enterprise Avenue to Livingston Road He stated the key to success, concerning traffic, with the Gordon River Crossing is linking it with Livingston. If it would end at Airport it would be a traffic nightmare. - Acquisition- $3.6M - Construction - $18.8M - Total Cost = $22.4M Airport Road Alternatives: Davis Blvd. - Airport Road Overpass Radio Road - Airport Road Flyover - Acquisition - $8.1M ($5.6 Davis, $2.5 Radio) - Construction - $45.5M ($25.6 Davis, $19.9 Radio) - Total Cost = $53.6M These alternatives were shown on the overhead with the power point presentation and explained. Commissioner Coyle asked about combining the options. Don Scott responded all the problems would not be solved, but a combination would help over a "no build" alternative. They need to select an alternative to take others off the table. Norm Feder stated the improvements along Santa Barbara and the Gordon River Bridge are needed in the long range plan. The gray areas are the options that need to be made now. Santa Barbara will have to handle more of the demand if they do not come up with an option that allows them to go south of Livingston. More demand will be on Airport, Radio Road and Davis Blvd., and possibly to Rattlesnake Hammock and 41. Commissioner Coyle wondered how they can achieve benefits on a through road in a community with frequent curb cuts for driveways. Mr. Feder responded there are pros and cons - and need to address the issues within, there aren't always answers to all the questions and can go into more depth if needed. Would choose the most direct route. Discussion followed on going through golf courses, and the alternative of "no build". Commissioner Fiala mentioned maintaining the integrity of the neighborhoods, improving the traffic light timing and the intersections to improve the efficiencies of the roadways. Commissioner Coletta would like staff give them a recommendation of ranking where they would combine the different alternatives to meet the needs. He feels some firm plans need to be made so everyone can get on with their lives. 6 April 15, 2003 Commissioner Henning has a problem with the trips going east and west. He asked about the traffic going east - where is it going - Mr. Feder stated they are going to Marco Island and East Naples along with going north, industrial park etc. Mr. Rutledge stated they did a select link analysis in which the model told them the east/west was a split. They found more of the trips are toward Marco Island, Davis and Rattlesnake Hammock going east to 951 and then south to Marco Island. Many of the trips were avoiding US 41 and heading up Livingston to Lee County which was taking many of the trips off the Interstate. Commissioner Henning asked why they would continue east to 41 if they are trying to avoid 41. Why not take Radio Road as a more direct route to get to 951 since they want to go to Marco Island or Everglade City. He needs more of an understanding if they are to make capital improvements to make sure they are making a wise investment. Mr. Feder stated there is more continued growth in East Naples and trips are going south and southeast towards Marco etc. Commissioner Halas feels they need to know the areas of future development and where they stand with PUDS along with the old PUDS. Transportation is doing a vested study. Discussion followed on traffic going into Lee County, truck traffic, traffic calming and the 2 lane highway down the FPL. Mr. Feder stated there is no simple answer. SPEAKERS The following speakers spoke in favor of going south with Livingston, favoring the FPL easement and supporting the expertise of the consultants, the study and staffs recommendations. Mr. Lindy Adelstein - Vice Chairman Coalition of Homeowners Assn. David Johnson - Member Coalition of Homeowners Assoc. Bob Murray - East Naples Civic Assoc. President The following speakers oppose the extension of Livingston Road because of the various reasons: - Opposition of putting a road through an existing neighborhood, - No FPL easement, - Need to protect the communities, - Current roads are adequate, - Negative impact on many of the communities - Truck traffic through developments - Widen Radio Road Preserve character of communities Would take away peace and quiet Concerned about real estate and property values April 15, 2003 - Eliminating already lower income housing - Concern for the quality of life Joe Adams - Community Preservation Assoc. Joe Fletcher - President Homeowners of Crown Pointe Villas Herm Idler - President Crown Pointe Community Assoc. Joseph Ring - Riviera Golf Estates - Member of Community Preservation Committee Karl Nuechterlein - Kings Lake Homeowners Assoc. Don Olen - Kings Lake - Real Estate Broker Cindy Connor - Riviera Colony, Real Estate Robert Harvey - President Maplewood Villa Assoc. Sue Burnard - Community Preservation Assn.-Riviera Colony & Board of Directors Barbara Poleschner - Communities Preservation Assoc. Ed Tappen - Queens Park Homeowner Bob Upshaw - Crown Pointe Homeowner Ray Monnot - Resident Kings Lake - Board of Directors Gail Fritz - Moon Lake Homeowners Assoc. Lunch Break- 12:28 PM Reconvened - 1:30 PM Commissioner Henning can see the need for a second Gordon River Bridge but has trouble seeing a need today or in the future for Livingston going south. Mr. Feder stated the question is "how do they get further south of Radio Road"? What level of impact will it have on the demands on Airport, the second Bridge or Santa Barbara? Is there an ability to extend or provide an access between Radio and Davis south to 41 and where would it be. There are severe constraints in the system. Commissioner Henning could not see enough of the modeling to convince him to make a Capital Improvement decision with Livingston. He is looking for a "need", and favors not do anything. Mr. Rutledge gave a history of where they started with the alternatives as their "needs plan". He covered several of the options again and told everyone where the traffic went. Stated Davis is beyond capacity and is exacerbating a problem that already exists. They need to do something to relieve Radio and Davis. Need some connectivity so the communities do not have to go into the major arterials - this would help the system tremendously. The FPL easement was the highest ranking option seeing it would not take a single home, but would need easements. He covered the different alternatives again indicating some were with the gated communities. Davis Blvd will be 6 laned and is already assumed in the study along with Santa Barbara South being assumed. Then they looked at the North - East - South alternatives and combinations. Norm Feder showed the "need" on the overhead indicating the roads that April 15, 2003 are failing. Discussion followed on purchasing homes; appraisal, market value and negotiations. Commissioner Fiala favors the "no build" with more interconnectivity to save the homes and neighborhoods working together. The interconnectivity is not an option or solution, just an easier way for local neighborhoods to move around. Commissioner Coyle felt it was a waste of time to build a road where there are many driveways involved. He does not see an alterative that involves a 100 access points in resolving the problem. He does not favor running a 4 lane road through a residential community or taking homes. Commissioner Coletta agreed with the points Commissioner Coyle made. He is concerned about the area with the veterans and others with quality of life. He would favor whatever they do to spend more money, if that is what it takes, to make it easier with buffers and dampen the noise. He feels the"no build" option is not acceptable. There will be so much gridlock it will be almost impossible to move. The problems need to be faced now than later. He referred to a letter from Tim Constantine in 8/2000 written to the Moon Lake Homeowners that the consideration of the FPL easement has been dropped. He did not take much stock in the letter. (Attached) Commissioner Halas feels they have a responsibility, not only the neighborhoods they are going to be impacting, but for all the people in Collier County. He is concerned about evacuation in case of an emergency. He doesn't feel they should not do anything and let the next set of Commissioners deal with the problems. Need to take a look at what is best for "everyone" in the County. That is the most important fact. Staffs recommendation is to look at the FPL easement between Radio and Davis only - move the signals away from Foxfire to the new FPL alignment with new signal half way down, servicing Moon Lake and Foxfire - look at only south of Davis if allowed an interconnection off the FPL to the signal at Davis for the other communities if they are interconnected. Then look at Santa Barbara and the second Gordon River Bridge. Mr. Feder would prepare a report if and when a decision is made on any of the alternatives so the public will know what the future holds and can get on with their lives. The plans would still address making improvements on Davis and Radio for more efficiency in getting some connectivity and not to go further than Davis on FPL nor any other alignments. There will be shortfalls on Airport and Santa Barbara. Commissioner Fiala felt they have an obligation to protect the neighborhoods, the people that bought in those neighborhoods and their integrity. Better timing of the lights throughout the County would help, improve the intersections and build nothing now. Apfil15,2003 Commissioner Coyle and Mr. Feder discussed what options they really have at this time in not taking of any homes and that is the FP&L alternative. Mr. Mudd summarized all the comments and alternatives in stating the second Gordon River Bridge, cleaning up traffic into South Park. The FP&L piece between Radio and Davis has some impacts, but does not take homes. The interconnect piece south of Davis will give the neighborhoods the ability to go around the block without going around the far end. When Davis is 6 lanes, it will not have a lot of lights. Will need interconnects for people to get out onto Davis making left hand tums. If nothing is done between the Radio and Davis piece - it will push all the traffic coming down Livingston to the left and right in which will force the Board to do something on the two connector roads on Santa Barbara and or Airport to relieve the congestion. The second Gordon River Bridge would take the piece of traffic going to the west. Commissioner Coletta is not comfortable and concerned about the whole program and does not want to stop short of what is needed. Commissioner Henning is in favor of the second bridge idea. Commissioner Fiala is also in favor of the bridge, the lights, the intersections and Livingston to end at Radio Road. Commissioner Halas is also for the bridge and extending Livingston from Radio to Davis Blvd. Commissioner Coyle feels he has not heard enough information on the Bridge, and not sure where the traffic will go after it goes across the Bridge. He stated there is nothing they can do to make people happy with the issue. They can say live with the traffic as bad as it gets, if it clogs the streets and makes it hard to get out of their homes, that's tough, they just aren't going to build any more roads, (or) they can take the other alternative of Livingston to Davis. He felt that is the proper thing to do, not the easiest, but will go along with either option. Commissioner Coletta stated they definitely have to extend Livingston down onto Davis. He wondered if the County would force the bridge down the City of Naples. Commissioner Coyle responded the County and the MPO has the responsibility for determining where the roads go - and if the bridge has to be built, the County and the MPO will determine that. If a proposal for a bridge is an option or issue, a plan needs to be put together. Mr. Feder stated whatever alternative they are given direction to pursue will need further detailed study with drainage etc. and will be ten (plus) years into the future. But it needs to be known now and documented so everyone knows what to expect in the future. 10 April 15, 2003 Commissioner Coyle stated the FPL affects 3 Commissioners directly (Commissioners Fiala, Henning and himself). It has always been his practice to take into consideration of the districts of the Commissioners involved. Taking that into consideration he is willing to support them in their proposals. Direction to Staff is: study the second Gordon River Bridge, a "no build" and do interconnect throughout the County was a majority. Mr. Mudd stated he heard two Commissioners say they would like to continue Livingston south to US 41 and three Commissioners saying they are in the "no build" option. They will then do what they can do with intersection improvements and interconnections with communities. In making this decision he wants the Commissioners to know they have taken Golden Gate Parkway at Livingston and pushed it west, and increased what they have for a flyover, pushing it to the East and bringing it to Santa Barbara which will increase the traffic on Santa Barbara. They took the problem in the middle and pushed it to the other ends. Commissioner Coyle stated traffic is going to get bad and that is the penalty, but it is what the people seem to want and takes all the other options off the table. There being no further business for the good of the County, the workshop meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 2:40 PM. BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTR~ _'~/x~/~t~. ~ ' ATTEST: DWIGHT E. BROCK, "': ~ ' °r ~'co~ected ' As presented 11