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EAC Minutes 12/01/1999 December 1, 1999 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL ADVISORY COUNCIL Naples, Florida, December 1, 1999 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Environmental Advisory Council in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9 : 05 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Collier County Government Center, Administration Building, Naples, Florida, with the following members present : CHAIRMAN: William W. Hill M. Keen Cornell Michael G. Coe Thomas W. Sansbury Ed Carlson John P. Di Nunzio James L. Mclvey ALSO PRESENT: Marni Scuderi, Assistant County Attorney Barbara Burgeson, Senior Environmental Specialist Stan Chrzanowski, Senior Engineer Page 1 December 1, 1999 n CHAIRMAN HILL: Good morning. I would like to welcome you to the December meeting of the Environmental Advisory Council . I welcome the public, and you will be given a chance to address the Council at an appropriate time. I would like roll call, please. MS . BURGESON: Carlson? MR. CARLSON: Here . MS. BURGESON: Coe? MR. COE: Here . MS. BURGESON: Cornell? MR. CORNELL: Here. MS. BURGESON: Di Nunzio? MR. DI NUNZIO: Here. MS . BURGESON: Hill? CHAIRMAN HILL: Here. MS . BURGESON: McIvey? MR. McIVEY: Here. MS . BURGESON: Sansbury? MR. SANSBURY: Here. MS. BURGESON: Smith? MR. SMITH: Here. CHAIRMAN HILL: At this time, I guess, for the record, I would like to acknowledge the fact that Dr. Jackson has resigned from the Council . Is there an ongoing attempt to replace him; if you know? MS . BURGESON: That resignation was sent down to Sue Filson and so that will be advertised, yes. CHAIRMAN HILL: Fine. Thank you. Any questions or comments on the agenda before you? (No response) I ' ll ask for approval from the Council . MR. CORNELL: I ' ll move we approve. MR. COE: Second. CHAIRMAN HILL: Discussion? Those in favor, signify by saying aye? Opposed, the same? (No response. ) CHAIRMAN HILL: The agenda is approved. MS. BURGESON: We have one item I forgot to mention that was requested to be pulled from the agenda, and that is IV°, which is the Panther Island Mitigation Bank. That won't be heard today. CHAIRMAN HILL: That will be pulled from the -- MS . BURGESON: Pulled, right . CHAIRMAN HILL: Did the members of the public hear that? Item IV°, the mitigation bank, has been taken off the agenda. Questions or comments on the November minutes? I 'll ask for approval of the minutes, then. MR. CORNELL: Move we approve. MR. SANSBURY: Second. CHAIRMAN HILL: Discussion? Page 2 December 1, 1999 MR. SANSBURY: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN HILL: Yes. MR. SANSBURY: There is one item on Page 16 where the comment was Florida Gators seven to one. Unfortunately I think it ' s nine to two now. Never mind. Forget it . I 'm sorry. MR. SMITH: I move we amend the minutes. CHAIRMAN HILL: We ought to check with the hokeys there, or somebody up there in Virginia before -- strike that . I ' ll entertain a motion for approval as amended. MR. SMITH: I so move. CHAIRMAN HILL: Second? MR. SANSBURY: Second. CHAIRMAN HILL: Discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? (No response. ) CHAIRMAN HILL: Passed 8-0 . Thank you. Land Use Petitions . We ' ll consider IV(A) , the Ibis Club Apartments . MR. MURRAY: Good morning. I 'm Don Murray, planner with the Planning Services Department . This project is a site development plan for Ibis Club. It ' s a 134 . 95 acre apartment project located about -- it ' s about a half mile from the intersection of Radio Road and Davis Boulevard, on the south ^ side of Radio, between Davis and Radio, with access off of Davis Boulevard. This project is in an urban mixed use, urban residential subdistrict of the future land use map which provides for higher density development where there are few natural constraints and where public existing and plant facilities are concentrated. It ' s also zoned and vested for RMF-12 zoning, residential multi-family with a cap of 8 . 9 units per acre, and this project, we looked at it, it is compatible with the growth management -- excuse me, with surrounding development and, because of these reasons; it is considered consistent with the growth management plan. Are there any questions? MR. CORNELL: I have one question. CHAIRMAN HILL: Yes . MR. CORNELL: Don, I should know the answer to this, but I don't . When we 're talking about the south county regional wastewater plant, primary and secondary treatment, is there water available from that plant for irrigation and so forth; is there recycling that goes on there or -- MR. MURRAY: You got me there. I believe there is . MR. CHRZANOWSKI : As far as I know the south county regional plant sends its wastewater out to a variety of golf courses all in south Naples . MR. CORNELL: Okay. All of it or most of it or who knows? MR. CHRZANOWSKI : I believe, as with everything, I think there ' s a shortfall in the middle of the dry season. MR. CORNELL: Right . Okay. Page 3 December 1, 1999 n MR. CHRZANOWSKI : The comment was that there is a shortfall in the dry season. As with all things, wastewater is generated a little heavier in the dry season because that ' s when all the people come down here. MR. CORNELL: Right . MR. CHRZANOWSKI : So it ' s a good thing that -- but in a wet season when it 's raining every day, they had some ponds just to the west of here that they used to store the water, because there was too much water being generated, and the golf courses can't take it in the wet season so -- MR. CORNELL: And where does the effluent from that plant end up? MR. CHRZANOWSKI : I don't know. MR. CORNELL: It must be one of the canals or something like that. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : No. I think they try percolating it into the ground. I 'm not really sure. MR. CORNELL: Okay. . MR. NINO: Mr. Chairman? That issue has come up several times and I think it would behoove us to get a report from the utilities people and let the AC know what the issue of gray water is and its potential for serving developments. Would that be agreeable to you all, if we -- MR. CORNELL: I think it would be great . I mean, I think it ' s a very important environmental issue. MR. NINO: I think you're right . It 's come up several times and I think we have to find out what is the state of gray water in Collier County. Could you arrange to do that? MS. SCUDERI : Mr. Chairman, if I can ask a question? I believe the court reporter is having trouble hearing. Is there a way to raise the microphone? MR. CHRZANOWSKI : I looked at the volume. I don't know how that works . CHAIRMAN HILL: Are you all right, Mrs . Brooks? We ' ll try to speak louder. Mr. Lenberger? MR. LENBERGER: Good morning. For the record, Stephen Lenberger, Development Services. As Don said, the property is about a fifteen acre site. It 's located approximately half mile west of the intersection of Davis Boulevard and Radio Road. It ' s immediately west of the Gallman car dealership, which I 'm sure most of you are familiar with. The property, as you can see, is vegetated completely. It ' s vegetated primarily with pine flatwoods . There is an area of wetlands on the south side, pine/cypress mix, approximately 1.29 acres of wetlands. There is a palmetto prairie in this area and there are basically pine/cabbage palm mix in these areas here that are circled. The project ' s before you because it is straight zoning. It didn't require a PUD, so an EIS had to be done. It ' s over ten acres and therefore that ' s why it ' s coming to you, a site development plan. Normally we do not bring site development plans to the EAC. I have the site plan up on the wall . If you could just visualize this site just tilted on its side. North is to the left. Page 4 December 1, 1999 When we do site development plans we require a site clearing plan, and the site clearing plan is the exhibit here I have on the wall . The crosshatched areas are the areas of vegetation which will be retained, and these blocks here are the building pods, which would be cleared at the time the building permits are issued for those buildings. The site would be required to retain fifteen percent of native vegetation on site. The developer will be preserving over twenty percent, so they are exceeding the amount required to be preserved. Considering that some of the vegetation lies close to where asphalt will be and the future lake, they have also -- have a restoration legend which they've provided to restore those areas with supplemental plantings, if necessary. There was a wildlife survey done on the property. The only listed species found was a red-cockaded woodpecker. It was found crossing the property. The petitioner has consulted with Fish and Wildlife Service, and they have purchased fifteen acres off site mitigation in the Belle Meade. The consultant is here, and I am here, if you have any questions, I would be glad to answer them. MR. CORNELL: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN HILL: Yes. MR. CORNELL: I have one question. Steve, I gather from the EIS that the county does not have a P-. recycling ordinance? MR. LENBERGER: We have a recycling program. I don't know how it 's written in an ordinance, but recycling is available to the residents . MR. CORNELL: Okay. But it ' s not in the form of an ordinance? MR. LENBERGER: I don't think it ' s mandatory, no. CHAIRMAN HILL: The area that they are going to purchase was stated to be in the Picayune Strand State Forest? MR. LENBERGER: That ' s correct . In the Belle Meade area, immediately west of where the Golden Gate estates lies, south of Alligator Alley. CHAIRMAN HILL: That is not currently state property? MR. LENBERGER: Right . It ' s fifteen acres . The developer did purchase it . CHAIRMAN HILL: And it will be turned over then to the Forestry? MR. LENBERGER: That ' s correct . CHAIRMAN HILL: Okay. But it is privately owned at this point? MR. LENBERGER: I 'm not sure if it 's been purchased already. Perhaps the petitioner -- MR. HALL: The property site -- CHAIRMAN HILL: Identify yourself, please. MR. HALL: Tim Hall with Turrell & Associates. We are the environmental consultant for Mr. Rich for the property. The mitigation property is fifteen acres . It ' s currently privately owned. It ' s within the purchase boundaries for the state forest, the Bell Meade Acquisition program, underneath that . Page 5 December 1, 1999 Mr. Rich has the land under contract . There will be a little bit of enhancement, removal of some exotics and an old burned out trailer that will be removed before it 's turned over. It will be turned over to the state and managed by the Division of Forestry. MR. CARLSON: I have a question, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN HILL: Pardon me. Ed? MR. CARLSON: Now, this red-cockaded woodpecker was seen on the site but there are no nests and it was just, like, foraging on the site? MR. HALL: That ' s correct . It was transient across the site. The survey showed no nests or cavity trees on the site or within a half a mile of the site, all the way around. There is known colonies both north and south of the site, within probably three miles. And the reason -- if you see the site plan, the preserve areas or the native vegetation that ' s being retained will provide a corridor, a passage corridor, both north and south and east and west across the site. MR. CARLSON: There used to be a red-cockaded colony across the road to the southeast of the -- is that -- MR. HALL: Yes, sir. Those trees are all inactive right now. MR. CARLSON: They are all inactive? MR. HALL: They are not -- they are not -- there was no active nesting sites found during the survey. MR. CARLSON: Well, the point I was going to make is, you know, I volunteered to be on this board for four years, so I think I 'm going to ^ see a lot of projects in this area. And if the foraging area is continually reduced, the land in the Picayune Strand doesn't do those particular birds any good, I wouldn't think. How far away is the land in Picayune Strand? MR. HALL: It 's -- it ' s quite a ways . MR. CARLSON: Yes . MR. HALL: The same birds using this site would not be using that site. MR. CARLSON: Yeah. So, over time, as the foraging area is reduced, eventually there won't be enough habitat there to support whatever birds are using this site? MR. HALL: Right . I just -- MR. CARLSON: Thanks a lot . CHAIRMAN HILL: That ' s a good question, and I think we need to address it and several similar questions regarding the mitigation process at a later date. MR. HALL: Something else the board needs to keep in mind also, though, is that a lot of these properties are rapidly degrading through mostly exotic infestation, so the forage value of those areas is declining on its own, aside from just the development . MR. CARLSON: Do we know if there are red-cockaded woodpeckers that will use the mitigation site in the Picayune? MR. HALL: Yes, sir. I did the survey out there. There is a known colony adjacent to, not on that site but adjacent to it . We didn't do a full fledged survey of the site to see if there were birds actively using it, but the habitat is a prime habitat for them. Page 6 December 1, 1999 CHAIRMAN HILL: Is there an approved time of year to make these species surveys? I notice this is January. Is that a good time of the year for this study to be made? MR. HALL: It kind of depends on the species that you're surveying. The red-cockaded woodpecker's a year-round resident so they will be more active in the spring and the fall, but you should see them. If they are there, the cavity trees and all are there year-round and they are being utilized. For some of the transient species or if you have, like, eagles where they have a definite nesting season, then now would be the time that you would see them actually trying to build their nests . And also it depends on the species that you're surveying for. Some of the them are time dependent . You won't see them at certain times of the year, you will at others. CHAIRMAN HILL: All right . MR. HALL: For the ones that are residents -- MS . BURGESON: For the record, Barbara Burgeson. Often the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will require two surveys, two weeks of surveys through the year to make sure they have got two different times of the year for the surveying, and it ' s typically in the spring and the fall . CHAIRMAN HILL: It seems like mid-winter, my limited knowledge, would be an inopportune time to really study the nesting. But, as you say, this is the time for some of the transient species to nest, January and February? MR. HALL: No. Like, the eagles are building nests and all now, which -- they are full-time residents, but the active nesting season starts in October, October, November. CHAIRMAN HILL: I have one question. We don't see an STP very often. It ' s interesting to look at this. There was no fill identified in the report or any place in the documents, but it looked like there was going to be a significant amount of fill in order to get the elevations, the final elevations. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : Yes . There will be a significant amount of fill brought in to the site, above and beyond what they excavate out of the lake, I think. CHAIRMAN HILL: Does that need to be addressed under the -- MR. CHRZANOWSKI : No. CHAIRMAN HILL: Okay. MR. CARLSON: Is there an Ibis management plan; is that why this is the Ibis Club? MR. HALL: No, sir. MR. CARLSON: I thought I had something there. CHAIRMAN HILL: You' ll regret that . MR. DI NUNZIO: You're really stretching that . MR. COE: I second that motion. CHAIRMAN HILL: Three out of eight is pretty poor. Any other questions? Any other petitioner who would like to address the Council? Any from the public? (No response. ) Page 7 December 1, 1999 Close the public forum and ask for comments from the Council. (No response. ) Any action from the Council? MR. CORNELL: I ' ll move we approve. MR. COE: Second. MR. CORNELL: Subject to the stips, I guess . CHAIRMAN HILL: Subject to what, Mr. Cornell? MR. CORNELL: They had some stipulations, I think. CHAIRMAN HILL: Right . MR. COE: I 'll second that . CHAIRMAN HILL: Any discussion? (No response. ) In the absence of discussion, all those in favor, signify by saying aye. (All ayes . ) Opposed, the same. Let the record show it was 8-0, approval . MR. SANSBURY: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN HILL: Yes. MR. SANSBURY: One thing I noted during that petition, it 's obvious that Mr. Murray has surpassed Mr. Chrzanowski in the outrageous tie area. MR. CARLSON: That was my first observation this morning. MR. SMITH: Also I would like to make a comment that Mr. Coe 's shirt is very, very loud this morning. MR. MURRAY: It ' s a planning tie. CHAIRMAN HILL: Is that the new proposed Naples skyline on there? MR. MURRAY: Yes. CHAIRMAN HILL: Does that satisfy all the environmental aspects of development? MR. SANSBURY: That ' s what that boat barn down by my house is really going to really look like. MR. MURRAY: If you' ll notice, the road network is very good. CHAIRMAN HILL: No traffic problems . MR. MURRAY: Traffic is moving along. CHAIRMAN HILL: To move on to Item IV(B) , PUD 90-17, the St . John the Evangelist Church. Mr. Murray? MR. MURRAY: Yes . Thank you. Once again, Dan Murray, Planning Services. St . John the Evangelist Church PUD was approved in 1990 for approximately 14 . 89 acres located at about three-quarters miles west of US 41, if you can see that . It ' s also located between the Naples Park Elementary School -- see if you can see that -- and the Naples Memorial Gardens Cemetery. There ' s also a residential development just to the north, northwest with a golf course being located -- sorry -- golf course development being located on the north side, and also a residential development to the northwest side. This is the cemetery and the school . And then across 111th Avenue is Naples Park and residential development . Page 8 December 1, 1999 This site also has an existing thousand seat house of worship -- see if I can get that on there so you can see it -- which is located in about the central portion of the fifteen-acre project, and it also has a life center and parish, all with library services and so forth. This project was originally approved to also have a school . What the applicants are proposing here is to expand the list of potential uses in the PUD document, which would also include a fitness center, a 125 unit ACLF, and the same school that was previously approved. And this will all be located here, whatever they develop, in the 5 . 7 acre portion of the site . I 've got a better drawing here, and this shows a little bit better. This is the development area that we 're talking about, the 5 . 7 acre portion, with parking, and, I guess, this is the school in here, and some of the other proposed facilities . It 's also -- they are also showing a preservation area buffering along the development area. MR. CARLSON: That area at the extreme north end? MR. MURRAY: Right here. MR. CARLSON: What is that; what is that proposed to be? MR. MURRAY: This is the -- this is the buffer here. MS. BURGESON: The -- they way that the remaining 5 . 7 acres will be developed is that the entire area will be completely cleared. The buildings will be constructed, the infrastructure put in place, and then they will be completely recreating the required 3 . 7 acres of native vegetation. So that area in the back and along the east side of the property has been recreated -- and I can get into that a little more detail -- MR. CARLSON: Okay. MS. BURGESON: -- But the recreated vegetation that they need to MR. CARLSON: Okay. That ' s all right . I ' ll wait . MR. MURRAY: Other than that, we reviewed it . It ' s consistent with the growth management plan and we are recommending approval. Are there any questions? MS . BURGESON: For the record, Barbara Burgeson. As Don said, the property currently has a sanctuary, parish hall, Gopher tortoise preserve on 5 . 74 acres of recreated wetland and parking. The 5 . 15 acre upland tortoise preserve is comprised mainly of scrub/xeric oak habitat, scrubby pine flatwoods adjacent to that, scrub oaks, sand live oak, rosemary, buckthorn, very little exotics in that area, and that ' s mainly due to the fact that the approval of this PUD required annual exotic removal, so we didn't expect to see the exotics on site. There is currently a 0 . 59 acre wetland on site which was required to be created at the time that the original PUD was approved as mitigation for 1. 7 acres of wetlands that they impacted at that time. Approximately two to three inches of standing water occurs within that wetland during the rainy time of the year, as indicated by water lines, sediment marks and stains on the vegetation in that area. The church proposes to clear the wetland area during construction and, as mitigation for that, they will be recreating 1. 6 acres of a Page 9 December 1, 1999 n wetland marsh on site and, in addition, purchasing lands off site in CREW at a three to one ratio for mitigation to the original 1. 7 acres of wetland impact . The PUD is required to maintain a minimum 3 . 73 acres of native vegetation on site. At the time the original PUD was approved 5 . 74 acres was what was determined to be an appropriate amount of native vegetation, largely due to the fact of the large population of Gopher tortoises on site, and that area was identified and set aside as a Gopher tortoise preserve. The church proposes to remove all of the existing native vegetation, recreate the 3 . 73 acres that 's required by the PUD at the completion of construction and infrastructure. And, in order to do that, all of the Gopher tortoises will be relocated off site. They will be obtaining a relocation permit from Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission prior to any site improvements on site. They' ll relocate those tortoises. And staff is recommending approval of the petition, subject to the one water management recommendation stipulation and the environmental stipulations as listed. Do you have any questions -- CHAIRMAN HILL: Questions for staff? MS . BURGESON: -- That I can answer or maybe the consultant can answer? They're here. CHAIRMAN HILL: What is the density limitation for this property? MS . BURGESON: Are you talking about structural density? CHAIRMAN HILL: No. Residential density. MS . BURGESON: Okay. MS . MURRAY: This is a PUD based on the prior approval. The density would have to meet, basically, the land development code as it applies to the ACLF, or anything like that . As for the rest of the uses, they are pretty much approved, the life center and so forth. There aren't any other, I guess, residential type uses proposed, other than the ACLF. CHAIRMAN HILL: But the 125 residential units is new; that proposal is new, correct? MR. MURRAY: Yes . CHAIRMAN HILL: When that occurs on an existing PUD, is the entire acreage used as a basis for the density? MR. MURRAY: No. The existing proposed area -- you can't double dip, as some people call it . MR. NINO: For the record, Ron Nino. When we deal with ACLF facilities, the conventional density rules don't apply. The LDC establishes a four area ratio for a factor of 0 .45 times the area of the land that 's to be devoted to the ACLF. Under an earlier version of the code, it was twenty-six units per acre. That was eliminated several years ago, and, in lieu of that, a mathematical factor was applied to determine the number of units that one could achieve in an ACLF type of facility. So it ' s the 0 .45 times the area devoted to that purpose, produces the number of units that they could potentially get . The number of Page 10 December 1, 1999 units that they could potentially get, of course, is a relationship to the size of the units and the amount of common space, kitchen, therapeutic rooms, et cetera, that they devote to the -- to residents of the project . So, you know, there really isn't any conventional dwelling unit density relationship here because that 's not what they're building. CHAIRMAN HILL: Okay. Thank you. MS . BURGESON: For the record, just getting back to the Gopher tortoise just a moment, I did not discuss the list of the species survey. I forgot that as I was talking before. The consultant conducted about twenty-seven hours of surveys on the property and identified forty-nine active Gopher tortoise burrows, twenty-three inactive and a number of abandoned burrows . And it 's because of the limited habitat that would remain on the site that the consultant and that the church has proposed and committed to relocation of all of the tortoises off site. CHAIRMAN HILL: Thank you. Back to my other question. The term "congregate living facility" , that implies the assisted living facility. That wasn't clear in my mind. CHAIRMAN HILL: Mr. Carlson? MR. CARLSON: I ' ll ask the obvious question. The original PUD was approved and a preserve area was a condition of that PUD? MS . BURGESON: Because the Gopher tortoises were -- because they identified a large enough preserve area, they were able to keep the tortoises on site. The way the land development code is written right now, they are allowed to increase the use of the property, as long as they maintain a minimum of 3 . 7 acres of vegetation. MR. CARLSON: So there ' s no language in the original PUD that says MS. BURGESON: Yes, that for perpetuity -- MR. CARLSON: -- they are required to maintain that as a preserve? MS. BURGESON: That ' s right . MR. CARLSON: So, really, any preserve area we've approved on any project that goes above the required minimum can come back to us in the future and be reduced to the minimum? MS . BURGESON: Yes . MR. SMITH: I have a question, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN HILL: Mr. Smith. MR. SMITH: I noticed that the -- in addition to the plans to recreate wetlands on site to 1 . 6 acres, they are proposing to purchase lands in the Corkscrew Regional Ecosystem Watershed on a three per one ratio. Is this something that is over and beyond what they would be required to do or is that -- MS . BURGESON: I 'm sure that that is just what they are required to do for the South Florida Water Management District to mitigate for the original loss of wetlands from the project that was proposed for the first PUD. But if you wanted more details on that, the consultant is here. MR. CARLSON: Where is the created -- there is going to be some wetland creation? Page 11 December 1, 1999 MS. BURGESON: Yes. I don't have any identification any more than the site plan that you see there as -- in terms of exactly where that acreage will be. Some of that will be accommodated in smaller areas in between buildings . The majority of it, of the 3 . 73, however, will be in the -- I don't know what the acreage is . The portion here in the back and along the side here will make up the majority of that 3 . 73 acres. The remainder will be made up in smaller portions along the outside, between buildings and in the areas -- the common areas on the property. MR. CARLSON: Kind of like those little patches of wetlands you see in the parking lot, middle of the parking lot at Wal-Mart? MS. BURGESON: You' ll need to ask -- if the consultants can discuss that in more detail? MR. McIVEY: I thought you meant the standing puddles on the asphalt itself. MS. NAGEON DE LESTANG: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HILL: Yes. MS. NAGEON DE LESTANG: My name is Marielle Nageon de Lestang and I 'm with Turrell & Associates. I 'm the consultant for the project. The wetlands that will be created are going to be wet detention areas in the back of the site there, and behind the building, which will be the adult congregate living facility, which is basically how it exists now, the wetlands are just kind of -- they are included -- incorporated into the water management system, just making more -- actually more acreage of wetlands . MR. SMITH: I 've noticed that there is a golf course being proposed immediately behind. And right now that 's not -- that 's not even a golf course right now, is it? MR. NAGEON DE LESTANG: No, it 's not . They are still in the beginnings of construction. MR. SMITH: Okay. CHAIRMAN HILL: Mr. Cornell? MR. CORNELL: Just for Barbara, following up on Ed Carlson' s interesting question, I thought if you had a preservation area, that it was accompanied by some kind of a conservation easement, or was that not the case here or -- MS . BURGESON: The preservation areas are often accommodated with -- if they are platted -- this particular PUD, I don't believe, was ever platted. If they are platted, they are platted with protective covenants. MR. CORNELL: I see. MS. BURGESON: But that does not mean that you cannot re-plat them and re-configure, and we have had that over the years, where a preserve area has been re-designated. If you're coming in and you're re-doing the PUD -- MR. CORNELL: Right . MS. BURGESON: -- in some cases we have had them completely relocate another -- in -- to other portions of the property for particular reasons . MR. CORNELL: May I ask you one other question? Page 12 December 1, 1999 The EIS notes that the church now uses a well for irrigation water and -- is something like that permitted and monitored by the Water Management District or something, or how does that work? MR. CHRZANOWSKI : Private irrigation wells are usually just permitted by Collier County. MR. CORNELL: I see. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : Unless it ' s for larger projects like developments, subdivisions, golf courses, and then they go through the Water Management District . I don't think that they would permit this one for the church. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: They would need something from -- MR. CHRZANOWSKI : They would need something from you? CHAIRMAN HILL: Yes. And please identify yourself . MS . BISHOP: For the record, Karen Bishop, agent for the owner. We are in the process right now of submitting our applications to South Florida for our water use permit as well as our water management permit . In this area, especially in the coastal areas, it ' s pretty typical that you would have to permit through the district for any kind of irrigation in this area. Things like the reuse lines which you were talking about earlier are not available for these kind of projects . So you're really kind of limited to either potable water or well -- or some sort of well . CHAIRMAN HILL: Thank you. Any other questions for staff? MR. CARLSON: A question for somebody. There ' s also some proposed recreation of xeric scrub community? MS. BURGESON: You'll have to ask the consultant about that . MR. CARLSON: What 's -- MS. BURGESON: I can tell that you it will be required to be re-planted and recreated in larger plant material in accordance with the land development code which requires fourteen to sixteen foot trees, five gallon shrubs and one gallon ground cover. But, in terms of what that mix will be, we ' ll approve a plan at the time of site development plan approval . MR. CARLSON: Well, what 's the track record of being able to create that kind of habitat? MS. BURGESON: We don't see -- MR. CARLSON: This is all going to be re-contoured and re-planted? MS. NAGEON DE LESTANG: They are planning on recreating it based -- well, the grade is basically going to stay the same, so -- MR. CARLSON: I mean, are there lots of examples of this working? MS . NAGEON DE LESTANG: Unfortunately, I 'm not able to answer that . MS. BISHOP: Karen Bishop again. I just -- actually, about four years ago we relocated 400 scrub trees in a habitat in Pelican Bay, and it still stands today, along North Point Drive, and it is in excellent condition. We were able even to relocate rosemary, which traditionally you can't relocate or propagate. So, it can be done. It ' s not done as easily because people consider it more expensive than just buying new trees. Page 13 December 1, 1999 MR. CARLSON: Is this a place I can drive to and look at? MS . BISHOP: Absolutely. MR. CARLSON: Where is it? MS . BISHOP: It is the road that goes to the Cortella shopping center on the north -- you go in North Point Drive. The northern entrance of Pelican Bay, your first right, it ' s on the left-hand side. And it 's 400 trees . We -- only five died out of 400 trees that we relocated. So, it can be done but it ' s just not traditionally done because it 's cheaper to buy those little lollipop trees and throw them in the ground. That ' s what most of the landscape guys will tell you, but, if you really want to do a good job, you can, in fact, do it . CHAIRMAN HILL: I was remiss earlier in not acknowledging the presence of the Water Management District representatives, and we certainly appreciate your being here. And, from time to time, we 're going to call on you for help. Are there questions from the Council? How effective is the Gopher tortoise removal and reconstitution of that habitat? MS. BURGESON: If you're talking about how effective is it to relocate tortoises off site? CHAIRMAN HILL: Yes. MS. BURGESON: Or are you talking about how effective is it to recreate that parcel with native vegetation? CHAIRMAN HILL: No. To recreate their habitat off site. MS. BURGESON: They won't be recreating habitat off site for the tortoises. What they will be required to do through the state permit is, is obtain permission or purchase land of an adequate acreage to relocate all of those tortoises onto, and that land will probably have -- more than likely it will have to be purchased. That permit will require all of those tortoises to be relocated. MR. CARLSON: And what ' s the survivability (sic) of this? I mean are -- MS. BURGESON: It ' s discouraged. MR. CARLSON: Are they monitoring; are they monitored to see how they survive? MR. SANSBURY: I can address that directly, having just done that, and, that is, we have just in January of 1999 relocated twelve Gopher turtles that were located on the south of Golden Gate Boulevard where Naples Grand Golf Course is presently being -- we identified a six acre preserve site within the Grey Oaks Golf Course. We planted about 300 prickly pear cactus, probably three to four hundred -- I would say they are called Gopher apples, which is another plant to use, plus some additional spartina grasses and other grasses . They have been there a year, and, of the twelve -- we looked like -- about a month and a half ago -- and ten of them are still in residence within that area. So I think that -- we can't -- the other ones are -- we did have a fenced-in area. We think that the other ones probably, you know, didn't go someplace else, they probably expired for some reason or another. MS . BURGESON: Did you actually have to obtain a relocation permit to do that? Page 14 December 1, 1999 n ' MR. SANSBURY: Yes . That ' s a relocation permit that was by the -- MS . BURGESON: By the state. MR. SANSBURY: Yes, by the state. And they said that was a fairly good survival rate of -- MS. BURGESON: I understand from relocation permits that I 've reviewed in the past, that there is minimal monitoring after that and it ' s probably more up to -- MR. SANSBURY: We have to do it every year. We have to file a report every year. MR. CARLSON: You do the monitoring? MS . BURGESON: Is it just for the first three years? MR. SANSBURY: Our engineers do it, certified -- basically Wilson, Miller does it for us . MS . BURGESON: And is that for the first three years after? MR. SANSBURY: I 'm not sure if it ' s three or five. I know -- I know it ' s for three. I 'm not sure how many further it is. CHAIRMAN HILL: Anything else from the Council? MR. CARLSON: As far as relocating the tortoises, you identify different areas that may take some of these, the seven for the Division of -- wait . Seven for the Dunes development, eleven or twelve, Division of Forestry, and that leaves, by my math, like thirteen, and you state the Catholic church could have -- could have some receiving areas for these? MS. NAGEON DE LESTANG: Yes, sir. MR. CARLSON: What is that; where is that; what ' s that all about? MS. NAGEON DE LESTANG: They have two sites in town currently that they are constructing or, I guess, they are in the permitting phase, and they have some habitat which is suitable. And I 've also, since then, been told by Bay Colony that they would be offering some area. I have not looked at their beach area yet to see what the density is, but they have offered to take some turtles also. MR. CARLSON: Would these be permanent preserve in perpetuity, forever, or will they be subject to future development? MS. NAGEON DE LESTANG: No. Well, Bay Colony is forever. The Dunes is also in perpetuity, and the Catholic church, if they had any preserve set aside to be used for those turtles, then that would also be in perpetuity. And then, of course, the Division of Forestry would be on state lands, so -- MR. SANSBURY: So that would be -- if they have -- excuse me. Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN HILL: Go right ahead. MR. SANSBURY: You have to have the permit from -- MS. BURGESON: From the state. MR. SANSBURY: -- the Division of Fish, I believe. MS. BURGESON: Yes. MR. SANSBURY: One of their requirements is, the place you put it, you establish a preservation easement for the land. That ' s one of the things we have had to do in partial on the golf courses, we 've had to do that, so it can't be changed at all . CHAIRMAN HILL: Anything else for the petitioner? Page 15 December 1, 1999 (No response. ) Is there anybody from the public that would like to address the Council relative to this project? (No response. ) We'll close that portion and ask the Council for their pleasure. MR. SANSBURY: Move approval . MR. DI NUNZIO: Second. CHAIRMAN HILL: Any discussion? (No response. ) It 's been moved and approved -- move to approve PUD 90-17, subject to the recommendations by staff . Discussion? (No response. ) All those in favor signify by saying aye? (Ayes . ) Opposed, the same. MR. CARLSON: Nay. CHAIRMAN HILL: Show recommended for approval by a count of seven to one. CHAIRMAN HILL: Under Old Business we have an item and an update on the commissioners ' action on the final order. MR. LORENZ: Yes. For the record, Bill Lawrence, Natural Resources Director. On last Tuesday, the 23rd, the board heard basically two items that dealt with the final order. One was the NRPAs, of which we had received an objection, recommendation, comments, on a work report from the state. The board voted to adopt an additional eight sections of land into NRPAs in the Okaloacoochee Slough, northern portion of the area. They also voted to add certain special study areas that would have a more specific attention during our assessment process that will go -- we're going forward in the next two to three years. These areas would be in the northern Okaloacoochee Slough that basically tracks the priority one panther boundaries . Another area, which is a special study area, would be between Camp Key -- Camp Key Strand and Okaloacoochee at the southern portion, throughout the top of the panther preserve. That was also a special study area, again, that matched up with the priority one panther habitat . And the third study area was the north Belle Meade, which you had seen previously as a proposed NRPA. That particular area that was proposed as the NRPA was also designated as a special study area. So the board adopted that as the NRPA boundaries, which they transmitted to DCA. They also adopted some additional language within the policy that addresses NRPAs to reflect the fact that these study areas would have some very specific attention. And there ' s actually some specific criteria that were different and unique for each study area that was listed in the language. We can -- this language isn't finalized. We are just in the process of getting it transmitted to DCA. Certainly we can make you copies of the final map and final language and we can put it in the mail to you. So that was basically the board' s action on the NRPAs. Page 16 December 1, 1999 On this next set of remedial amendments that we had taken to the, to the council previously, the board adopted all of that language that the EAC has seen, plus additional language in the drainage subelement that basically allows for some flexibility to apply some variants -- to apply variants to the numbers that we adopted. And this reflects our current ordinance 90-10 for -- that we apply to stormwater management, the run-off rates. So it gives -- it preserves the county's ability to provide the flexibility that it currently has. So that -- so that additional language was presented to the board and adopted by the board. At the moment, for the NRPAs, really, we 're -- we have -- I think the state has thirty days to issue a finding of either compliance or non-compliance, since we have passed the work process on it . If the state were to find us in non-compliance, I believe the next step is that we would go through a process of administrative hearing. If the state finds us in compliance, of course it still could be challenged by any outside group, in which case they could petition for a hearing that would go through the DOA process, and I -- at the moment I can't give you the name of the letters, the words for that acronym. So that would -- that 's where we are with the NRPAs. With the remedials, this is -- basically the board voted to transmit the remedials to DCA. DCA has, by the final order -- it 's either thirty or forty-five days to get back to the county with its work report for the remedials. And then we would go through the same ^ process. We would then respond to the board. The board would then have an adoption hearing, and that would be sometime early next year. As I said, we will -- we can make the -- when the maps are finished and the wording is finished, we can put that in the mail to you. MR. CORNELL: Great . CHAIRMAN HILL: When does the clock start on the three-year assessment period? MR. LORENZ : It basically already has. CHAIRMAN HILL: It has started? MR. LORENZ: The final deadline for that assessment, where the county has to have amendments in place, adopted, is June 22nd, 2002 . CHAIRMAN HILL: Okay. So that was the beginning of it . MR. CORNELL: Bill, I wanted to thank you, or someone -- I guess it was your office -- for the minutes of the oversight committee meetings. Maybe it wasn't your office, but I wanted to thank somebody. MR. LORENZ: Bob may have arranged that . MR. CORNELL: They turned up on my computer, which was great. And I just -- I wondered if you had any comments. I see that that process for both the committees is underway and -- MR. LORENZ: Yes. MR. CORNELL: Any observations on how it ' s going or -- MR. LORENZ: Well, the -- the rural fringe committee has met twice. They have -- a third meeting is on the 15th, and basically they are in more of a fact-finding mode. We presented -- staff has presented that committee with resource data, land cover analysis data for the areas, basically a lot of the maps that you had seen previously Page 17 December 1, 1999 that we 've presented through the NRPA process, land cover, wetlands, listed species habitats. So we are presenting that information to them next week, or the next meeting on the 15th. They will hear a presentation from Jim Beaver from the Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission so that he can provide them that, that information as well. The rural lands committee, which is everything, if you will, east of the estates and north of the alley, the best way to explain that, they have had two meetings as well, but they are, at the moment, looking at finalizing a scope of services that the consultant for the eastern property owners ' group has been working with staff to present to the committee, and I believe they meet next Monday on the 6th, okay. And, hopefully, I guess, the objective there would be to finalize that scope and recommend to the Board of County Commissioners that particular document as a scope of services. You mentioned the computer. We 've also -- on our website we do have two sections specifically, one for the -- one for the fringe committee, one for the rural lands committee. We are posting the minutes and agendas on those committees, posting related information, such as those maps that I 'm talking about, those resources, land cover, habitat, listed species maps, and also, I believe, the proposed scope of services . At least one of the drafts is on the website as well . So you can monitor the process by the website. You can always, you know, pick up the phone and give me a call, or certainly Bob Mulhere, I 'm sure, in his shop, if you have any questions . CHAIRMAN HILL: What 's the address of those two websites? MR. LORENZ: Well, it ' s the county website. I believe it 's WWW. Collier.FL.US. It ' s the regular Collier website. CHAIRMAN HILL: Not Collier government? Well, I ' ll get it later from you. MR. LORENZ: It ' s CO.Collier.FL.US. CHAIRMAN HILL: Any questions for Mr. Lorenz? (No response. ) CHAIRMAN HILL: Thank you, Bill . You' ll keep us abreast? MR. LORENZ : Yes . MR. COE: Comments? CHAIRMAN HILL: Anybody from the public that would like to address the matter of the NRPA or the final order? (No response. ) Any other old business from the Council? (No response. ) Move on to Item VI, New Business, discussion of workshop on permitting and development process . MR. NINO: For the record, Ron Nino. I understand that Vince Cautero and Commissioner Hill discussed the desirability of you scheduling a workshop at which we would more completely address how Collier County does business, basically. So, I guess, the only purpose of this item currently is to get a feeling from you-all as to when you would like that to happen. CHAIRMAN HILL: I believe this was discussed with other members of Page 18 December 1, 1999 the council, was it not? We had had some questions as a council concerning time frames and other steps in the permitting process . And MR. NINO: Let me -- I 'm thinking that the first meeting in January, following the Christmas season, is probably going to be difficult for staff to respond adequately, so can we think in terms of your meeting in February, perhaps. MR. COE: Fine with me. MR. CARLSON: Fine. CHAIRMAN HILL: I think that 's a suggestion. We ' ll tentatively put it on the agenda for February. MR. NINO: Let me tell you that our, our petition workload, it does not appear that you're going to be overburdened within the next couple of months. So it might be advisable to schedule that workshop. I think you'll have time to do it . CHAIRMAN HILL: Can we bank on that, Mr. Nino? MR. NINO: I think so. MR. SANSBURY: Second. CHAIRMAN HILL: That ' s always good news . MR. CHRZANOWSKI : Excuse me. I have a question about new business. CHAIRMAN HILL: Yes. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : That presentation on effluent water reuse that you want me to set up, I assume you want it to be fairly thorough, how many golf courses are presently going under reuse, where the mains are, maps and all . Do you want it set up for next month or do you want it set up for the first month with a light agenda? CHAIRMAN HILL: What is your schedule, Stan? MR. CHRZANOWSKI : Well, it would probably be Utilities that I 'd contact, go down there and see what they have. Could probably do it for January, that way you would know what this area looks like before -- for effluent reuse. CHAIRMAN HILL: Barb, what 's the January agenda look like? MS. BURGESON: At this point we don't have anything scheduled on that . We expect to have probably three items. CHAIRMAN HILL: Would the wetland bank presumably come back in January or -- in January? MR. CHRZANOWSKI : Yes. MS . BURGESON: Stan said yes. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : It ' ll be here. CHAIRMAN HILL: Mr. Cornell, you raised that question earlier. Is that -- MR. CORNELL: I think it would be great . I mean, I would love to get into it any time. Whatever works for you, Stan. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : January. CHAIRMAN HILL: Put that on as an item then. MR. COE: Just of interest, Stan, I don't know how much you know about it, not that I know a lot, but Lakewood, where I live, we originally pumped for irrigation out of the lake. And I don't know if n it was somebody from Southwest Florida Water Management, but whoever Page 19 December 1, 1999 said, "Ah-ah. Not going to do that any more. " We 've been doing it for twenty years . So I guess the council, or whoever it is that sets this up, said, "Well, it ' s going to cost each homeowner X amount of money. " Of course, everybody screamed, "We 're not doing it . " I don't know who was involved in the negotiations, but somehow or another -- I don't know if it ' s the county that paid for it or what have you -- but we didn't end up paying for it as an assessment . But, as of cost versus us running the two pumps that we had been running, versus having the county run it through our system, the cost was negligible, so it was almost a wash deal, even though we 're now paying for the water. Next to us is King's Lake. Does anybody here live in King' s Lake? (No response. ) Well, in King's Lake, they are on city water for all of their irrigation. Their bill runs somewhere between 100 and $200 a month, where ours is like twenty-seven bucks a month. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : It 's sort of a symbiotic relationship. The county was getting not exactly fined a lot, but a lot of the percolation ponds that they were using for sewage treatment to get rid of the water, since they weren't allowed to discharge directly into water bodies, were not working efficiently, and the county needed someplace to put the effluent, and the golf courses were willing to accept it . As I said before, though, in the dry season is when the demand is the greatest . Fortunately, that ' s when the most people are down here using it, so you generate the most effluent . I guess we' ll go into all that on -- I 'm aware that -- the City of Naples was actually the first in 1983 . They had ten golf courses, ran that main up Goodlette Road, and I don't think those golf courses paid a cent for any of it because the City was under an order not to dump into the bay any more. So it has worked out good for a lot of golf courses. CHAIRMAN HILL: We'll tentatively put it on January, but if your schedule -- MR. CHRZANOWSKI : No. I ' ll put it on January. Won't be a problem. CHAIRMAN HILL: -- gets tight -- Thank you. Any other comments from the public? Yes, sir. MR. WARNER: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. I 'm Nelson Warner. I 'm a retiree and I can make no profit by being here. Occasionally I write letters on the subject of the shut-off of water during periods of prolonged electrical outages. It took from late August 1998 until March 1999 for the public works administrator to admit that all freshwater services will have to be shut off during periods of prolonged electrical outages due to hurricane, Y2K, terrorism or other failures. And Miss Gina Edwards was able to arrive at that conclusion in her article on March, 218t, 1999 . Do -- the core problem is, the county has in excess of 550, probably closer to 600, sewage lift stations without electrical back-up. The county meets standards that are currently under review in Tallahassee. The problem is increasing with each approval of a new Page 20 December 1, 1999 �� Illi development . By the way, I have met with Miss Burgeson and Mr. Chrzanowski, and they suggested I appear here as a public member. The state standard is obviously inadequate for a coastal county. A hospital is under construction that will not have guaranteed water and sewer services under prolonged negative conditions. This is to the best of my knowledge. The two upper levels of county government -- as of a month ago I wrote zero to minimal -- and, as I understood, it was brought up lately, a couple weeks ago, so I 'm using the word "minimal" -- action to address the problem. I was not informed of the action taken at a county commission meeting but somebody told me that it was brought up and a matter of transportable generators was mentioned. The county had two portable generators and some pump trucks under contract . I understand the county has recently approved one additional portable generator and one pump truck. The Florida Department of Environmental Protection cites the county meets the standard. The director of the State Department of Health, after citing a letter from the Department of Environmental Protection, has been challenged to ignore the low standards and truly address the issue. The Florida Department of Affairs has answered a letter indicating that a new mitigation study is under review. I have been in telephone contact and fax contact with Mr. Ken Pineau -- and I don't know personally, if Mr. Ken is here? He is aware . of the problem now and the new mitigation study, I understand, proposes that an electrical generator be provided for each new lift station. And that ' s under review at the state. On the 25th of June I wrote a letter to the editor raising the primary issue. And I will quote, "Such questions as coordinating the selection of hurricane shelters with guaranteed sewage service as well as drinking water are important . " And I really didn't get a direct answer on that because there are no answers. I have come to the conclusion that raw sewage being backed up in homes and in the street is a possible threat . The ramifications could be extremely serious from a public health point of view. The county has dodged the bullet three times just this year with large hurricanes. My recommendation is that the Council consider asking the environmental people to conduct appropriate studies in this area. Are there any questions, gentlemen? CHAIRMAN HILL: Questions or comments for Mr. Warner? MR. WARNER: I don't hear well, pardon me. If you'll raise your hand, I 'll be happy to -- it will tell me who is talking. MR. COE: We have no questions. CHAIRMAN HILL: You've raised a very valid point and this council may decide to pursue your recommendations, and we appreciate your participation in it . MR. WARNER: Thank you. MR. COE: Stan, who would do the study for this particular problem? MR. CHRZANOWSKI : I would suppose the Public Works -- it 's -- to sum up the problem, it 's easy to get water to the people with Page 21 December 1, 1999 generators if there is a massive power failure. You just turn on the pumps that -- the water supply -- the water treatment plants pump it out . It 's difficult to get the sewage back because there is hundreds of small lift stations throughout the county. You also could flush your toilet, conceivably, using lake water, a five gallon bucket, flush it down. So there would be no control of people going out to the canal or out to the lake and sending sewage. Even if you shut off the water, they could still flush. It ' s a Public Works issue. It 's their system. It 's not a Development Services issue. I suppose I could ask someone from Public Works to show up here. MR. COE: What ' s interesting to me is that we 've got 500 and some-odd pump stations, of which we don't have much power back-up, for all intents and purposes. I 've got kind of a unique background in that my brother-in-law runs a rental company up in Wilmington, North Carolina, which, if anyone reads the newspapers, realizes that that ' s a hurricane magnet, if you live in Wilmington. I mean, they have been hit like six times in three years . It was interesting, the last hurricane I just happened to be calling him, asking whether he was okay. He said, "I 'm working. " I said, "Why are you working?" He said, "Well, I 'm waiting for two" -- count this -- "200 generators to be shipped into Wilmington for pump stations . " And we have how many, two or three? MR. WARNER: In March we had about 550, so it ' s probably closer to 600 now. The Countryside has four. Countryside Country Club, I understand, has four, so that gives you an idea how many per -- unit area. MR. COE: Do we have the power to direct Public Works to do a study and present that study to us as to whether there is a problem and, if there is a problem, what is the solution? MR. CHRZANOWSKI : You could direct me to send a letter to Public Works requesting that they appear here and tell you whether there is a problem and a solution. MR. COE: Then I would like to make a motion to do so. And that motion would be -- you know, I don't want to be too specific because you're going to draft a letter, but, basically, tell us if there's a problem, what their plan is for the solution. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : Yes, sir. MR. SANSBURY: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN HILL: Yes . MR. SANSBURY: Being a little bit familiar with it and pretty well any areas where you're operating the lift stations -- CHAIRMAN HILL: Let me get a second first . MR. SANSBURY: Excuse me. I 'm sorry. Discussion. I 'm sorry. CHAIRMAN HILL: Is there a second to the motion? MR. SANSBURY: I ' ll second. MR. DI NUNZIO: I ' ll second. MR. SANSBURY: You know, generally, you have lift stations, you have two emergency ways that you get rid of them. Every lift station of a large scale, other than grinder pump stations, which are the Page 22 December 1, 1999 weakness in the program, which are the small stations that are in isolated areas of maybe a gatehouse, or something like that has a grinder pump station, but most residential units have to be hooked up to a full scale lift station. That lift station has two emergency ways to pump it out . It has a plug on it that 's a standardized plug the generator hooks into and it has a pick-up on it that the tanker truck comes up to. In times of emergency, and everywhere of this sort, there ' s no way the government could ever have enough lift -- have enough generators on hand to handle every lift station. There are some optimum number of owning them and renting them. Basically the ones you own are the ones you maintain for short-term problems, i .e. , a breakdown, or something of that sort, so you can pump one and run it . I think it 's asking the Public Works Department to spend a lot of time on something. They operate under some pretty strict controls from, you know, various agencies on how these things are put together, and I 'm sure they have an emergency preparedness program, as everyone else does . But to, you know, to do it, you rent generators, you rent trucks and you operate through the situation. It occurred in Wilmington, it ' s occurred in other cases, and, you know, there hasn't been any disasters on the thing, and I just -- I just question asking agencies to do study after study that, again, take up their time when they've got a full-time job anyhow, which is a situation, knowing that they are operating under regulations that require them to be as prepared as possible with the resources available for such instances. MR. COE: Well, this could be a real simple answer. The head of Public Works could stand up here in front of us and say, "There is no problem. " And, if there is no problem, then there ' s no problem. But if there is a problem, he ' s going to have to say, "Yeah, we got a problem and this is a plan that we didn't have to prepare for your board, we already have a plan. " All I want to know is what the evaluation is, that ' s it . It doesn't require any special study or anything like that. It requires him to come in here and tell us what the story is . Very simple. MR. CORNELL: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN HILL: Yes. MR. CORNELL: I just have a concern about whether this is really what we 're here to do. I thought we were trying to advise the county commissioners on matters of natural resources. And this seems like it ' s more of a, you know -- not that it ' s not a very legitimate problem, but it seems like more of a kind of a health, public works kind of issue than it is down our alley. MR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, I would tend to agree with that . I think that, you know, our role might -- in an advisory capacity, if we could see that somehow or another the county commission was ignoring this and there was a big public outcry, we might at one point or another want to give our counsel to the county commission as to what to do, but I don't know that it would be in our prerogative to request perhaps an expensive study and a time-consuming study. CHAIRMAN HILL: Correct me if I 'm wrong, Mr. Coe, but I didn't interpret your motion to request a study. Page 23 December 1, 1999 MR. COE: Absolutely not . CHAIRMAN HILL: Simply an appearance from public works to give us an idea of the situation as it exists today. MR. COE: I mean, we're talking about public health. And, again, I go back to North Carolina. Look what happened with their flooding. And that 's what 's going to happen here. The wind, I mean, as long as it ' s under 120 miles an hour, we ' ll be fine. But the flooding is the thing that is the real fear, because we're so low here. We get flooding and then we can't run our sewage, and we can't get fresh water, what do we do? I think that 's an environmental question, a very serious one, potentially. But again, I don't know. They may already have a plan. If they do, then they'll come in here and they'll say, "Hey, here ' s our plan. We already have it . " They don't have to do a study. MR. McIVEY: Mr. Nino, can you respond as to whether or not this falls under our jurisdiction? MR. NINO: No. I wouldn't want to offer a comment on that . CHAIRMAN HILL: I ' ll comment . I think it borders on our responsibilities. When this type of situation is raised, I think we have a responsibility, not to solve it but at least to find out if, indeed, it is a problem. And, according to the motion, I think that ' s within our -- MR. NINO: I just wish I had -- CHAIRMAN HILL: -- purview to ask that this be done from public works . MR. NINO: Yes. Ron Nino, for the record. Only recently Ken Pineau put out a memorandum that ' s four pages long of things that need to be done to address hurricane issues. And I wish I had it with me because it wouldn't surprise me if that 's not on the list. I think this is really an issue that Ken Pineau needs to address rather than public utilities in the first place. Bill, do you remember; have you seen that list, Ken Pineau' s memorandum? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It ' s a long list . MR. NINO: I know there ' s forty-five or fifty items on it -- MR. CORNELL: Right . MR. NINO: -- that need to be addressed. I wish I had it with me. MR. COE: Ken Pineau, if he ' s got the answer, you know, I don't care who we go to. MR. NINO: Okay. MR. COE: It doesn't make any difference. I mean, I don't know the little -- where it goes, I just want to get an answer. MR. SMITH: Also, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that we're going to be having a workshop with the utilities department . We might want to just explore that with them there, you know, and make it part of our inquiry at that time. MR. COE: That ' s fine. MR. NINO: I will get with Ken Pineau and ask him to address that question, and perhaps to appear at your next meeting in January. MR. COE: Either that or during the workshop. Whenever. Page 24 December 1, 1999 MR. NINO: Okay. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : So that means I don't write a letter to anybody requesting that they show up here? MR. NINO: I ' ll get ahold of them. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : Okay. MR. COE: If it ' s going to be done -- I don't see any reason -- CHAIRMAN HILL: There is a motion on the floor and discussion is over -- MR. COE: I would like to retract that motion, since it ' s already been solved. CHAIRMAN HILL: Seconder agree? MR. SANSBURY: Yes . CHAIRMAN HILL: That motion is removed from the table. But we will -- we thank you, Mr. Warner, for your interest and we will pursue it . As a matter of semantics, we use the term lift station. I assume in this topography a lot of them are forced pumping stations, force meaning as opposed to true lift stations. MR. CHRZANOWSKI : Yeah. Generally we use lift station when it lifts the sewage to the next gravity sewer and it goes down and you lift it and it goes down in a pump station and it ' s generally manifold into some type of forced main system. CHAIRMAN HILL: I agree. But we are talking about -- MR. CHRZANOWSKI : We 're talking the same thing. They all need -- like Mr. Sansbury said, they all empty out roughly the same, which you either mechanically pump them or you have some type of generator to get the pumps in the wet well going. And a lot of them you have to do it in sequence, you can't just pump -- CHAIRMAN HILL: That 's right . MR. CHRZANOWSKI : -- down. It gets very complicated. CHAIRMAN HILL: Any public comments? If there are none, I would ask for a -- wish you all a very Merry Christmas, if I don't see you, and seek a motion for adjournment . MR. DI NUNZIO: I motion we adjourn. MR. CARLSON: I ' ll second that . CHAIRMAN HILL: Unanimous 8-0 to adjourn. Thank you very much, everybody, for being here. Page 25 December 1, 1999 ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned at 10 : 15 a.m. ENVIRONMENTAL ADVISORY COUNCIL WILLIAM W. HILL, CHAIRMAN TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE BY: ELIZABETH M. BROOKS, RPR Page 26