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CLB Minutes 10/19/2016 October 19. 2016 MINUTES OF THE COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD MEETING October 19, 2016 Naples, Florida LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Contractors' Licensing Board, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 AM in REGULAR SESSION in Administrative Building "F," 3rd Floor, Collier County Government Complex, Naples, Florida, with the following Members present: Chairman: Thomas Lykos Vice Chair: Richard Joslin Members: Michael Boyd Elle Hunt Kyle Lantz Gary McNally Robert Meister Patrick White Excused: Terry Jerulle ALSO PRESENT: Ian Jackson — Supervisor, Contractors' Licensing Office Kevin Noell, Esq. —Assistant County Attorney James F. Morey, Esq. — Attorney for the Contractors' Licensing Board 1 October 19, 2016 Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this Board will need a record of the proceedings and may need to ensure that a verbatim record of said proceedings is made, which record includes the testimony and evidence upon which any Appeal is to be based. I. ROLL CALL: Chairman Thomas Lykos opened the meeting at 9:01 AM and read the procedures to be followed to appeal a decision of the Board. Roll call was taken; a quorum was established; seven (7) voting members were present. II. AGENDA—ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: Under Item VIII, "New Business," the following cases were withdrawn by the County: • D. —Brian K. Slavin, d/b/a B & K Tile and Marble, Inc. • E. — Stacy Fults, d/b/a Hector Mario Lawns, LLC. III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Vice Chairman Richard Joslin moved to approve the Agenda as amended. Patrick White offered a Second in support of the motion after clarifying the cases had been withdrawn by the County. Carried unanimously, 7— 0. IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES—SEPTEMBER 21,2016: Gary McNally moved to approve the Minutes of the September 21, 2016 meeting as submitted. Patrick White offered a Second in support of the motion. Carried unanimously, 7— 0. V. PUBLIC COMMENT: (None) VI. DISCUSSION: (None) VII. REPORTS: (None) VIII. NEW BUSINESS: A. Orders of the Board Vice Chairman Richard Joslin moved to approve authorizing the Chairman to sign the Orders of the Board. Gary McNally offered a Second in support of the motion. Carried unanimously, 7— 0. 2 October 19, 2016 (Note: With reference to the following cases heard under Section VIII, the individuals who testified were first sworn by the Attorney for the Board.) B. Noel Sinclair— Reinstatement of License (d/b/a "Sinclair Electric, Inc.") Ian Jackson provided background information: • In 2008, Mr. Sinclair was issued an Electrical Contractor's license but was placed on probation and was ordered to return in six months for a review of his credit • October 21, 2009 —his probationary license was revoked for failure to comply with the June 18, 2008 Order of the Board • Noel Sinclair has applied to reinstate his Electrical Contractor's License without retesting Mr. Jackson noted there was a mathematical error on the first page of Mr. Sinclair's application concerning the amount of fees to be paid. He would address the issue with Mr. Sinclair. Noel Sinclair stated: • He had been ill and moved to West Palm Beach where he was involved in an auto accident and had been hospitalized • He contacted Michael Ossorio concerning being reinstated and was told "it couldn't happen" • He later contacted Ian Jackson who "walked him through the steps and told him to re-apply" Chairman Lykos requested clarification from Staff regarding why Mr. Sinclair's application was not considered as a"new" application due to the amount of time that had elapsed. Ian Jackson explained the Applicant chose to petition the Board to also waive re- testing. He stated too much time had passed and Mr. Sinclair would be required to test again before a license could be granted administratively. Chairman Lykos asked if Mr. Sinclair had been granted a license previously. Ian Jackson confirmed Noel Sinclair had been licensed from June 18, 2008 to October 21, 2009. (9:07 AM—Robert Meister arrived. Quorum was increased to eight voting members.) Michael Boyd asked if the Applicant had a State-registered electrical license. Ian Jackson replied that Mr. Sinclair had been registered with the State. Noel Sinclair stated he had applied to the State and was informed that if Collier County reinstated his Electrical License, the State of Florida would also reinstate him. He completed the paperwork with the State and paid the required fee. 3 October 19, 2016 Michael Boyd asked if the State requires proof of continuing education to renew a license. Ian Jackson confirmed it was a requirement of the State. Michael Boyd asked if Mr. Sinclair was current with the State's continuing education requirement. Noel Sinclair stated he was not current but had been advised by DBPR to apply to Collier County first and if he was granted a licensed, he could acquire the continuing education credits if necessary. Michael Boyd questioned the Applicant: Q. Your State-registered license is not current? Is that correct? A. Yes. I have re-applied and the status of Sinclair Electric, LLC is now "active." It is up to Collier County to grant my license back. I will send the paperwork back to the DBPR who will give me a new license and number. Ian Jackson explained Mr. Sinclair was applying to reinstate his Collier County license which was also registered with the State's DBPR. If he is not granted a license then he will have nothing to register with the State. Vice Chairman Joslin stated he thought all continuing education requirements had to be completed before a Contractor could register his/her license with the State. Ian Jackson concurred. Vice Chairman Joslin suggested the applicant should bring his continuing education requirements up-to-date before he applied to the Board. Ian Jackson explained that Mr. Sinclair must obtain his license from Collier County before he can complete the process and register his license with the State. He will be issued a new number by the State. He is also qualifying a new company— starting from scratch. Noel Sinclair further stated he had been instructed to obtain a fictitious name for his new business which he could then link with the name of his old company, Sinclair Electric, Inc. Patrick White asked Mr. Sinclair to clarify the names of his company and referenced a credit report for "St. Clair Electric, Inc." Noel Sinclair confirmed his old company was "St. Clair Electric, Inc." He explained since his was completing a new application, he opened his new company as "Sinclair Electric, LLC." The name will be linked to the old company. Patrick White: So your application today is for Sinclair Electric, LLC? Noel Sinclair: Correct. Michael Boyd asked if the last time Mr. Sinclair took a test was in 2008. Ian Jackson: Yes. Kyle Lantz questioned the Applicant. Q. Have you done any continuing education since 2008? A. Not at all. When I spoke with DBPR, I was told to check with Collier County first. Q. What have you been doing? Have you been working as an electrician? 4 October 19,2016 A. Correct. Q. For how long? A. I have been in this industry for twenty years. Q. But you were out for a while because you couldn't renew, so how long were you out of work? A. When the market fell down in 2008, I was out for roughly three years. But during that time, I was sick. Q. So, since roughly 2011 to the present, you have been working as an electrician? A. Correct. Q. And ... working for somebody else? A. Yes, a contractor. Q. What type of work have you been doing? A. Electrical. Q. Can you be more specific? A. I was laying out slabs, switch gears, you name it. Q. Industrial—commercial —residential? A. Commercial. Chairman Lykos asked for clarification of the company name. He asked Patrick White if the Board was being asked to qualify a different business name or a license. Patrick White explained the name of the company in 2008 was "St. Clair Electric, Inc." Mr. Sinclair has applied to reinstate his license and the new name of his company is "Sinclair Electric, LLC." He further stated one of the credit reports referred to "St. Clair Electric, Inc." Chairman Lykos questioned the Applicant: Q. In 2008, your business name was "St. Clair Electric, Inc." A. Correct. Q. And the license that you had was to qualify that business? A. Correct. Q. Now that we've moved forward eight years to 2016, you have established a new business called "Sinclair Electric, LLC."? A. Yes. I was told I could go ahead and change the name to "Sinclair Electric, LLC." Vice Chairman Joslin directed his comments to Ian Jackson: Q. This is a Collier County license only? A. Yes. Q. When he applied for a Collier County license, didn't he need to have all of his continuing education already completed and then this can be issued? A. No. Q. For a State-certified license, you have to have it before you can be certified. And then you go to the County. But, on the other hand, if you only have a County license, doesn't it reflect back to the County license and then all he would have to do is register with the State? Patrick White: There is a difference between "certification" and "registration" in the first place —let's make sure we are clear on that. 5 October 19, 2016 Q. A County license means he can only work in Collier County. A. Correct. Q. So you govern everything that he does? A. In Collier County. Q. And he can't work in any other County unless he registers in that municipality. A. -Unless he obtains licensure in another municipality. Q. Correct. A. Not "registers." He is not a certified contractor registering his state license. He has to obtain licensure from every municipality that he wants to work in. Q. Correct. Okay. So, if he registers with Collier County -- in order to register his license in Collier County, he should have to have his continuing education done. A. He doesn't have to "register" with Collier County, he needs ... Q. He wants a license from Collier County. A. He needs a license from Collier County before he can register with the State. Q. Right. A. And whatever the State process is to register a County license— it is what it is — whether it's continuing education— it is whatever the DBPR requires to register the County license. Patrick White directed his question to Ian Jackson and Board Attorney James Morey: Q. Would it be possible for us to be able to provide a license that would be probationary with respect to having completed all of the requirements for continuing education before he can pull permits or do work? A. (Ian Jackson) This Board can issue a probationary license. He will not be current and active until he is registered with DBPR. Q. In order to register with DBPR, is it the same effect as what I was suggesting on his County license because he cannot do those things until the State registers him. A. Correct. Patrick White directed his comment to Vice Chairman Joslin: Hopefully, that addresses your issue because the State's regulatory process is that he can't work, regardless of whether he has a County license or not, because he doesn't have his continuing education completed with the State. Chairman Lykos: So he could get his license in Collier County but can't actually do any work until he is registered with the DBPR? Ian Jackson: Correct. Chairman Lykos: And he won't be able to register until he has his continuing education done? Ian Jackson: If that's the DBPR process which I believe it is. Patrick White: We could back it up by making doubly sure that he has to complete the required CE's. Vice Chairman Joslin: Either way, the CE has to be done before he would be able to go to work. Patrick White: That certainly seems to be the sense of this Board. Vice Chairman Joslin: I would say that—considering he had a license for only a year or there about—he was licensed in 2008 and we are almost in 2017, I could think the continuing education would be important. 6 October 19.2016 Chairman Lykos: He had the license for only about a year, right? Ian Jackson: Sixteen months. Chairman Lykos: He was licensed for sixteen months that was eight years ago. And he hasn't had any continuing education since? Patrick White: The point is, from my perspective, the reason why he was originally on probation was for financial and to the extent that he has been working when he has been able to in the field, hopefully, that will provide him with the amount of educational experience so when he goes in for his CE, he will be able to pass them. The thing that protects the consumers in this County is that he cannot work in this County until he (a) has a license from us, and (b) is registered with the State which will only happen if he has completed all of his continuing education. Assuming for the sake of discussion, that we don't have any issues with his financial, we could choose to give him a probationary license for six months which become effective upon registering with the State and demonstrating that he has completed his continuing education. Vice Chairman Joslin: I don't think that will be necessary because if we grant him a license, then all he has to do is take a CE registration to the State and he can come back and get a license. Chairman Lykos: Here is what I would like to do. Mr. White has laid out a path of how this might work if we choose that option, but there are a couple of people on the Board who are familiar with electrical—Mr. Boyd and Mr. Lantz. Why don't we get some input from these two gentlemen? They know better about electrical and licensing and the scope of their work—let's get their input. Michael Boyd: I kind of think that if we grant him a license, he can still go to the State and register that license. The CEs are typically involved when you are renewing your certification. Kyle Lantz: He will have to do one full cycle of CEs in order to renew. Michael Boyd: But he's not renewing—he's registering as "new." So I don't think the CEs will come into play. He's not renewing—he's going to register a new license. So I don't think there's any testing involved with the State. That's where I have a problem. Elle Hunt: We're heard testimony that he has been working for the last few years but nothing within this package shows any support for that. The latest letter that we have here showing that he's done electrical work—shows employment through 2008, but nothing beyond that. Elle Hunt questioned the Applicant: Q. Do you have any verification that you have been doing electrical work from 2009 on? A. Maybe a paystub or something—but I've been working. Chairman Lykos: Technically, we're allowed to take his testimony as evidence. Elle Hunt: Agreed. Chairman Lykos: How much value you put in it is up to you personally, but technically, his testimony is evidence of that fact. October 19, 2016 Elle Hunt: And I started off by saying, "other than his testimony ..." we don't have anything to validate any additional experience for the last eight years. Kyle Lantz questioned the Applicant: Q. So, have you been a guy in the field? Have you been running a crew? Have you been estimating? What type of work have you been doing for the last few years? A. Lead man position on a job; wiring up buildings —commercial buildings; Q. But what's your position? Are you the guy twisting joints? Are you the guy organizing five people? Are you the guy figuring out the costs? A. Organizing people. Q. So, are you dealing with the contracts? A. No, I'm not dealing with the contracts—that pertains to the office. They do all that stuff I'm out in the field working as a regular employee. Q. So that leads me to the Business and Law area. If he doesn't have experience in Business and Law in the past eight years, I would have a hard time giving him a license without at least re-testing that portion of it. Elle Hunt questioned the Applicant: Q. Why don't you want to test? A. It's not the fact that I don't want to test—I was told that I was able to get my license back being that I took the tests and I've got my Journeyman's License with Collier County. I took my Electrical Contractor's License with Collier County and being that I had a neck injury, and had obtained my license for roughly six months to a year, on probation for a period of time, my license became denied because I had an injury. I was told I could go ahead and reinstate it back. So pretty much, I never got a fair chance of even working with my license. I was working for only about a year—six months to a year. I just got the license and then it was revoked. Kyle Lantz questioned the Applicant: Q. But that was your choice not to comply with the Board's order, not the County's choice. They gave you a fair shake—they told you to do this and do this —and you'll get your license moved from probationary to permanent ... it was your choice not to do it, not the County's. So it's hard to blame the County and say you didn't get a fair shake when you are the one who didn't comply with the Order. Right? A. I'm not really blaming the County but Mr. Michael Ossorio told me that I couldn't get it. And now you have this new guy—Jason— and Jason walked me through the steps and told me I should be able to get my license back. He told me to go ahead and file a new name and let's take it from there —take it up to the Board. Chairman Lykos: Q. I understand your situation. For me personally, I think one of the biggest issues that I have is all the time that has passed. Mr. Lantz brought up the business and law side of the business. Even if we were to accept your testimony that you have continued to work in the electrical side of the business for the last eight years, there are tax law changes, there's Workers' Compensation law, the business and 8 October 19, 2016 law side of running a business —rules change over the years, laws change over the years and if you have not maintained your Continuing Education, then how are we to be comfortable knowing that you are current on all of the different requirements that you need to meet to operate a business in Collier County? A. Well, I would say, sir, that's when you have the Continuing Education— like you say—to go to classes and get revised with those information. But— like he was saying earlier—the license has to be issued first. If you guys want to give me a probation period for some time to go ahead and do the Continuing Education, and then put them altogether and grant my license, no problem. Kyle Lantz: Q. You could take Continuing Education today. Ian could take Continuing Education today and he doesn't have a license. There's no requirement to have a license to educate yourself. A. That's what I'm saying. You say that I would have to do the business and law, et cetera, -- I was saying the Continuing Education comes into play with learning all these new laws that are going on ... with issues in the field, such as the new Code, et cetera. Q. One of the problems that I have with Continuing Education is that you get credit for showing up —there's nothing that says you learned it or you didn't. Whereas, when you take a test, it detenuines if you actually learned it or not. You can sit through 40 hours of Continuing Education while playing on your cell phone all day—I'm not saying this is you—but anyone can sit through it while playing on their cell phone all day and not pick up one thing they are saying. And there's no accountability for it. Whereas, if you take the test, then we know that it actually set in. Patrick White: Are you talking about the Business and Law exam or are you referring to ...? Kyle Lantz: Any of them, in general. Right now we're focusing on Business and Law. Patrick White: That's what I thought. Patrick White questioned the Applicant: Q. Mr. Sinclair, are you saying that you would be okay with us issuing a probationary license where you would have a license and be able to register with the State but you wouldn't be allowed to work until you met what otherwise are the requirements this Board would impose? For example, passing the Business and Law exam and getting in the cycle of Continuing Education? A. Honestly, it wouldn't really make sense because I've passed .... Q. Is that, "No"? A. No. Q. Your alternative, it would seem to me, is that you complete whatever the Continuing Education requirements are, take the Business and Law exam, and come back and see us again when you have those things done. It seems there are really only two options here. A. That's just pretty much as I would go and take the tests all over and apply for a Certified license, which here I have passed the tests already. 9 October 19, 2016 Q. I'm not trying to make the choice for you. A. Do you see what I'm saying, though? Q. Well,there's a difference between "certified" as well. Kyle Lantz: I don't know if you know this, but at the October 21, 2009 meeting, the Board made a recommendation to the State of Florida's Construction Industry Licensing Board that "... the Applicant be prohibited from contracting in the State of Florida without a full hearing on such matter." What happened with that? Did he have a hearing or is this his hearing? Ian Jackson: I don't think DBPR would conduct a hearing for a registered contractor. Kyle Lantz: So this would technically be his "hearing"? Ian Jackson: That's right. Chairman Lykos: I wasn't on the Board then—Mr. Joslin was. My sense was that the Board didn't want him to just go out, fill out some paperwork and get a license — this [Order] required him to come back before the Board before a license could be issued. He would not able to get a license without coming back before the Board. Vice Chairman Joslin: I have reservations because it has been so long— it has been since 2008. And like Mr. Lantz said, there are lots of laws that have changed. And you haven't done anything in that period of time to take any kind of CE courses or keep yourself abreast of what is happening in the electrical field. The electrical industry has made some significant changes I am sure. I know I see electrical contractors all the time who complain about the changes that have been made. Whether you are working in the field or not, if you are only doing the scheduling— that doesn't tell us that you really know the operation—you're just moving people who really do know the operation. I have some issues with granting a license at all without taking the test. Chairman Lykos: Credit is not an issue. That was the issue in 2008. Your credit [score] exceeds the minimum required by the State. This is really about the fact that your license has been dormant since 2009 and you have not maintained your education. Vice Chairman Joslin: If you would agree to be on a probationary license for six months like Mr. White said, and to be able to take your CE courses which you can do online, and then take the Business and Law test—that may be an option that we may be able to accept. Patrick White: Actually, given what I think of what I have heard, my sense would be three months because it certainly seems do-able ... probably within three weeks. If the concern is that he passes Business and Law, and he completes what would be the otherwise required cycle of Continuing Education, I wouldn't have an issue if he goes ahead and completes those two sets of tasks. Then his license would become effective. The three months would act as a time limit—and if he didn't have it done by then—his license would be suspended or revoked. He would not have a license. The point is—until he meets those two thresholds, he would not be able to pull permits or do work. Kyle Lantz: Why are we giving him a ... Patrick White: I'm just saying 10 October 19, 2016 Kyle Lantz: ... probationary license that's useless anyway? Why don't we just say Patrick White: It isn't useless ... Kyle Lantz: ... do "a," "b," "c," and "d" ... Patrick White: It isn't useless in the sense that it allows him during the same period of time he's taking care of these two sets of tasks, he can process through his paperwork with the State. It's an incentive to him, in my mind, to get the testing done and get the Continuing Education done, because when he's done with those things, however long it takes to be registered with the State and have a new number issued, those things would be occurring in parallel. So he has an incentive to do those things. That's the only thing that I would suggest. Chairman Lykos directed his question to Michael Boyd and to Kyle Lantz: Q. If you are out in the field, how would you feel about a person in this situation having a license considering that they have not been active for eight years? A. (Kyle Lantz) I wouldn't hire him. A. (Michael Boyd) No, and I wouldn't either. I think we're getting stuck in the Continuing Education—I would just say that he takes the Business and Law test and is done with it. I don't think the Continuing Education has anything to do with him getting a State license or a state-registered license. I'm sure Kyle can echo this, we have to take fourteen hours of Continuing Education every two years and out of that— I'll bet it's close to 70% now—has nothing to do with doing anything in the field. It's all business and law, Workers' Comp — all that sort of thing. Patrick White: Your sense is that passing the Business and Law exam would address ... be the equivalent of Continuing Education? Michael Boyd: Yes, I think it would. Kyle Lantz: I have a few more technical questions. Q. Who do you currently work for? A. I work for an agency—it's a guy named Tom. Q. What do you mean by an agency? A. Workforce. Q. Like a day laborer? A. No. It's not a day laborer—it's a guy who will actually send you out to different contractors. Q. For different electrical contractors? A. Correct. Q. How long have you worked for him? A. I have been with him for roughly two or three months. Q. And for the last two or three months you have worked for a bunch of different electrical contractors? A. No,just one. Q. Just one. And what contractor is that? A. Palmeroy Electric. Q. And that's on the other coast? A. Yes, correct. And that's also inside my application. 11 October 19, 2016 Q. So before two months ago, who did you work for? A. I worked for Bradford Electric. Q. How long did you work for them? A. One year. Q. Forty hours a week? A. Yes. Q. And how about before then? A. I don't remember exactly. Q. You testified that you have been working consistently for six years so I'm trying— since you don't have any documentation of it—I'm trying to have you explain to us so we can understand six years of electrical work. And so, someone who bounces around working for an electrical labor pool and another job for a year— show me some more time. A. It's all electrical work. I mean, regardless, I'm working for a contractor. This guys —he's sends me out to work for another contractor— it's all electrical work. Q. No, that's not the same because you don't own the job. If you're working on a job for a month or two months or just a little while, you don't own the job from the beginning to the end. So you're not a responsible party. A. I'm not going to be on these construction sites from the beginning to the end. They pretty much use you to cut the budget. They say, this guy makes "x" amount of dollars so I have to send him to another job or whatever the case may be because you have funds. Q. I understand completely. But what I want to see technically is that you were responsible for a job. You can run a job. So someone who is on a job for just a little while—if I bring someone to one of my jobs for just a little while —they may be the best electrician ever, but they are not going to be responsible for the job. They are going to be doing bits and pieces, and it's two different ball games. If you can show me that you've been technically skilled as an electrician— it means a lot more than bending pipe or running a few wires. It means looking at a print— looking at a design or designing a system and making sure it's correct. A. That's not a problem. I mean, you also can do service work, troubleshooting errors, landscape lights, put up fans—anything. It's not just necessary to run a big job— it could be maintenance work. So me having a company, it could be just me doing maintenance to help and service the community. Chairman Lykos: Q. The letter in your packet from Pomeroy said that your work with them ended in 2006. A. Correct. Q. So to Ms. Hunt's comment earlier, we have your testimony but we have no other written documentation that you have been active in the trade since—actually since your license. Vice Chairman Joslin: That's not true. There's another report in here from Craftstaff which says he worked from 2004 to 2006 and from 2006 to 2008. He has been in the business. Chairman Lykos: His license was issued in 2008. Since his license, we don't have any evidence of him being active in the trade after 2009 when his license was revoked. 12 October 19, 2016 Patrick White: Q. And the two to three months that you have been working for this agency and you report to Tom, the contractor that you've been work for is Pomeroy again? A. Correct. Q. And so they brought you back in and have had you working jobs for them wherever they may be for the past two to three months. A. Correct. Q. After you spent a year working for Bradford. A. Correct. Q. And what did you do at Bradford? A. At Bradford, I pretty much installed panels, I wired panels—you name it— all aspects of electrical. When you go on a job, it's pretty much the same thing. Chairman Lykos: Q. So, Mr. Sinclair, one of the factors that we take into consideration in deciding whether or not to issue you a license without having to take all the tests again is that you can testify for us— or through written documentation prove to us—that you have been active in the trade. You are an electrician. There couple of people on the Board who know electrical pretty well, but there are several of us who are not electricians. We need you to be very specific in your description of the type of work that you've done so you can prove to those of us who don't know about electrical work that you are very knowledgeable about electrical work. Right now, I am not convinced that you know a lot more about electrical than I do. And as Mr. Lantz would say, I'm just a dumb General Contractor. You need to give us a lot more detail about the kind of work that you've been doing to show us your expertise. Right now, you are on the podium—prove to us that you are an expert electrician. A. Like I said, you go on a job and you do the same thing ... install wires and make it work. That's pretty much what you do. I work for different contractors ... anyone could be pretty much a contractor. You could hire any guy and he could work on anything electrical— a guy with a license and put guys to work. I mean, you know, you don't have to have no electrical skills. Here you have a guy who has been in the trade for twenty years —from 2001 pretty much all the way until now. I said the market fell in 2008 and I wasn't working at that time. Patrick White: The Chairman's question to you was about experience—not about explanations. Noel Sinclair: I am getting to what he was asking. Like I said, you get in the building and look at the print and pretty much install what you see. You are being supervised by an employer—and pretty much, that's it. The more money you make, the bigger task you are gonna do on the job. A lot of time, you go work for the employer and they have their guys already, so therefore they want you to just switch gears and run a little crew and et cetera like that. Chairman Lykos: How do you decide if you need to use a#12 gauge wire or a#14 gauge wire—how do you know if you need ground-width wire or don't need it? How do you know about if you're going to put in ground-fault interrupters or if you're going 13 October 19. 2016 to do a ground-fault circuit breaker in the panel? Talk to me about — give me some electrical terminology. Noel Sinclair: For this stuff right here, you use a Code book if you need to refresh on things to install. For any little issue, you look on the blue print for the panel schedule to know if it's a#12 wire or a 3/4 conduit ... for whatever pipe you're running or whatever circuit that needs to be installed. Vice Chairman Joslin: What you are saying is— it's all on the blue print? Noel Sinclair: Correct. Everything is in the blue print. Chairman Lykos: You know what—you don't need to convince me. You need to convince Mr. Lantz and Mr. Boyd because I'm going to make my recommendation based on their comfort level. Kyle Lantz: Q. What else have you done for electrical work besides the last year and two months? A. I have helped out friends, pretty much. Q. But have you worked for electrical contractors? That's what convinces me because I understand you have a lot of experience, but there is a big difference between helping out friends and doing stuff like that and working for a licensed electrical contractor doing permanent jobs. They are two different things. When you help out a buddy to install a receptacle, you are probably not going to upgrade and put a fault breaker on that circuit. When it's a permanent job, you damn well better or you will fail the inspection. Who have you done .... ? A. After the market fell and I was injured, I worked for the City of Vero Beach maintenance. I helped out with the sprinkler and the electrical. I've also worked with SeaSpray Electric and I think after SeaSpray was Bradford. And after Bradford, then Tom. Q. How long did you work for Vero Beach? A. I think two years, roughly. For SeaSpray, about a year, I think Q. And you got paid on the books for you could provide paystubs? A. Correct. Patrick White: At what point in time is his prior considered sufficient to issue a license? Have there been changes to the regulations, to the requirements, to the way in which the work—the actual technical and mechanical work—is done where if he demonstrates that he understands those things—the experience is less of a factor for me. Chairman Lykos: But the Ordinance says that we can waive testing if, in our opinion, testing is extraneous. Well, if you can't prove—even by testimony —that you have been active in the trade for the last eight years, I don't think that trade testing at this point is extraneous. We can't get even the testimony— I'm not convinced by his testimony that he has been active in the trade to the point that he understands all the Code changes. Just think of the way technology has changed in the last eight years and how the electrical trade has been affected by the technology changes—low voltage and LED technology and all those things— if you've not been active for the last eight years, I think that's the point of the Ordinance. 14 October 19,2016 • Patrick White: I think he's provided some testimony that he has been active. I don't know that it is at a level that may satisfy those on the Board with electrical licenses or others of us. My bigger concern here is how we either give him a path to getting what he needs to get done or we make a simple choice for him to have to go and complete the testing — both the Business and Law exam and the technical test. If that's the case, it's fine. Just trying to identify a path so we can ... Michael Boyd directed his question to Ian Jackson: Q. In 2008, when we granted him a license, was it strictly on experience or was there a test taken? I don't see the testing results in the packet. A. He tested to obtain that license in 2008. Q. Did we grant him a reciprocal from West Palm Beach? A. It was a Collier County license. Q. Okay. So it wasn't strictly on the experience—there was a test taken also? A. Yes. Elle Hunt: I have a question for the Board members who know electrical. We've heard a lot of testimony where Mr. Sinclair is talking about following drafts or following plans. If you have your Contractor's license, you are creating those and you are determining what to use—am I understanding it? Kyle Lantz: On a large job where an engineer is involved, the engineer will spec out a lot of stuff. At lot of times, the guy in the field has to modify what they have spec- ed out because it doesn't apply to the conditions in the field. But on smaller jobs, on 90% of my jobs no engineer is involved, and I do it. Elle Hunt: And you do it? Kyle Lantz: I do the design myself. So personally, I would never hire someone who says to look at the blue print because you need someone ... Elle Hunt: That's my problem with the consumer ... I am not getting enough technical experience from his testimony to feel comfortable with that experience over the last eight years. Kyle Lantz: A lot of times, engineers give the "big picture" and then they rely on the Contractor to plug in the holes and fill in the details. Patrick White: Would it be helpful to have the Scope of Work read to us that the license allows? Chairman Lykos: Mr. Lantz and Mr. Boyd, do either of you have a strong enough opinion to make a motion? Michael Boyd: I've been saying all along that I'm not going to vote for anything that waives testing anymore for someone who has had their license revoked or let it lapse, especially after eight years. Michael Boyd moved to deny the application of Noel Sinclair for reinstatement of his Electrical Contractor's License until he takes and passes the Business and Law exam and the trade test. Kyle Lantz offered a Second in support of the motion. Discussion: 15 . a October 19, 2016 • Patrick White asked for clarification: If Mr. Sinclair were to pass both tests, would that mean his application, if still valid, would be reviewed administratively and we would not see him? Or are we, in a sense, saying you are being denied your request for reinstatement and you need to re-apply? I'm not sure what happens administratively from here and would he know what to do? • Ian Jackson explained if Mr. Sinclair took and passed both tests, and provided a complete application, it would be reviewed and if it met what was required, he would issue a license to Mr. Sinclair. • Chairman Lykos asked if Mr. Sinclair would still be required to appear before the Board and specifically if the current application would remain effective and just be updated with the testing results — or would a new application be required. • Ian Jackson stated Mr. Sinclair could still use this application with his new test scores. • When asked if he understood, Noel Sinclair stated it was an "ER" license and if he going to work throughout the State of Florida, he would be better off taking the tests and obtaining a State license. He further said it didn't make sense to take the tests for a County license when he could take the tests for a State license. • Michael Boyd noted there were two different tests. There is a big difference now—there is a big difference in the testing between a State-certified and going for a registered, County license. He thought the State-certified exam took two days or three days to complete. • Noel Sinclair stated the knowledge is all the same — it's all applied to electrical. • Kyle Lantz noted the State will not accept experience from eight years ago — only experience within the last six years. You'll have to make sure that you document your ... • Noel Sinclair stated he could show that he has about 8,000 credits and has "been through all the schooling." I did my Journeyman through you guys and also the County license. I don't see why I'm not able to get my license. Chairman Lykos asked if there was any further discussion on the motion. He then asked for a vote on the motion to deny. Carried unanimously, 8— 0. Chairman Lykos explained to Mr. Sinclair the Board determined he must take the Business and Law exam as well as the trade test to obtain a Collier County license. It was his choice to decide whether or not to take the State exam. The Board has stated that, based on his testimony and the information provided in his application, it was not comfortable issuing a license to him without additional testing. C. Jim Kalvin—Review of Credit/Reinstatement of License (d/b/a "Jim Kalvin, LLC.") Ian Jackson noted Mr. Kalvin became a Marine Contractor in 1997 but his license was not renewed in 2006 and it became null and void. In July and August, 2016, Mr. 16 October 19, 2016 Kalvin took the Business and Law exam, as well as the Marine exam. He submitted an application for a new license. There is a question concerning his credit report which is why the application was referred to the Board for review. Chairman Lykos: Mr. Kalvin took the tests again and passed, so the only issue before the Board is the credit issue. Ian Jackson: Correct. Jim Kalvin stated: • The federal tax lien which was explained in the packet. The issue was a 1099 that was sent to him years after a job had been completed. He stated he ignored it because he was not an employee but a Contractor on the job. • Two years later, the IRS did not ignore it and came after him for back taxes, fees, and penalties. • He hired U.S. Attorneys to try to resolve the issue but they could not. He was employed at the time as a project supervisor for Kraft Construction. It was suggested that he submit a payment to the IRS in lieu of having his wages garnished. • He submitted the payment plan and has been paying on the debt. • The economy has not been good. He is a boat captain and the past few years have been very difficult. • One year ago, he attempted to get an Offer in Compromise—he tried to use the equity in his home to pay the amount down but the bank would not release his equity line. • He noted, after the application was submitted to the County, he found a document sent to the IRS requesting a new payment plan after the bank refused to allow him to use the equity line. • He received a letter from the IRS stating it received his communication but was not prepared to respond and would contact him. He stated he never heard from the IRS again. • He continued to make payments as he could. His income for January, February and March of last year was a"wash-out." • He had been receiving calls from former clients about his returning to the trade, and he decided to return to Marine Construction after determining there was a market for him. • He has signed a new payment agreement with the IRS and will begin making payments on November 1, 2016 until the issue is resolved. (Copies of the agreement were provided to the members of the Board to review.) Jim Kalvin stated he was hoping he could make his old trucks keep working, and if he obtained his Marine Contractor's License, he would be able to pay off the lien in approximately two years. Vice Chairman Joslin asked how Mr. Kalvin how he could receive a 1099 when he was self-employed. Jim Kalvin replied the man who he contracted with—the Condo manager at that time —had died while everything was transpiring. Someone came in after and started sending 1099s. He was incorporated as a Subchapter"S" and the initial deposit and 17 October 19,2016 all draws when through his company checking account. He stated when he received the 1099 he decided to ignore it. He has been dealing with this issue for approximately ten years. We have determined I can't pay it off in the trade that I am in and would like to get back into Marine Construction. Chairman Lykos: Do you have any sense of how long the IRS will take to respond to your offer? Jim Kalvin: They have responded. One of the notes in the packet was from last year. The one they did not respond to is from December, 2015. Patrick White: They have given him a payment plan and now, basically, owes $7K more than what he had paid down to. Chairman Lykos: They have accepted your offer and this payment plan. Jim Kalvin: Yes. Kyle Lantz: Personally, I would have no problem issuing a probationary license for a year and he could show Staff the record of payments made to the IRS. I don't think we need to see him again, provided he is making his payments. Patrick White: I would second that—if it's a motion. Chairman Lykos: Before we vote on that—your motion is to place him on probation for one year and all he is required to do is provide proof of his payments to the Contractors' Licensing Office. If he has, his probation is terminated. Kyle Lantz: If not, he will return to the Board. Chairman Lykos: Is that your understanding, Mr. White? Patrick White: It is. Chairman Lykos: I have a motion and a Second. Is there any further discussion on the motion? Chairman Lykos called for a vote. Motion carried unanimously, 8— 0. D. Brian K. Slavin—Review of Credit/Reinstatement of License (d/b/a "B & K Tile and Marble, Inc.") (Note: This item was withdrawn from the Agenda by the County.) E. Stacy Fults —Review of Experience (d/b/a "Hector Mario Lawns, LLC. ") (Note: This item was withdrawn from the Agenda by the County.) F. Manuel Orosa—Review of Experience (d/b/a "Orosa Custom Renovations, Inc.") Chairman Lykos noted Mr. Orosa had appeared before the Board previously. Ian Jackson confirmed Manual Orosa had initially appeared before the Board at the April 20, 2016 meeting to review his experience. 18 October 19, 2016 • Mr. Orosa had applied for a General Contractor's License. • The Board explained to Mr. Orosa that the Board would consider a Building or Residential Contractor's license or a restricted version of one of those licenses. • Mr. Orosa requested the Board vote on the issuance of a General Contractor's license but the Board denied his application. • Mr. Orosa passed the General Contractor's exam and has made a second application for that license. He has supplemented his experience with additional affidavits and understands that the Board may consider granting a Restricted General Contractor's license. Patrick White directed his question to Ian Jackson: Restricted— how? Do you have any specifics concerning the Scope of Work or type of construction? Ian Jackson: At the April meeting, there were specific structural questions that the Board asked. If we need to review the different Scopes of Work during the hearing, we certainly can to arrive at a decision. Chairman Lykos: In this situation, we could ask Mr. Morey to read the restrictions for each license. Chairman Lykos questioned the Applicant: Q. Can you please explain to the Board the new information in your packet—you have some new letters — and tell us more about your experience with regard to being a General Contractor. A. It is the same that I said the last time. We do commercial, residential, remodeling —we supervise on the construction. It is the same. Q. Okay. So saying that your testimony and your evidence is the same as before is not a good place to start because we already denied you a license based on your previous experience and previous evidence. Let's start over again, okay? You need to tell the Board what is different than last time. A. We started building my house. Q. Okay. So from April until now, you have experience in building a new house— A. Yes, my house. Q. Your own house—building it from scratch? A. Yes. We started from the underground. Q. I understand. What about any other work experience? Have you worked for anybody else doing any other kind of work? A. No. Q. Okay. Thank you. Attorney James Morey, Attorney for the Board, read from the Collier County Code of Laws and Ordinances, Article V—"Building Trades," as follows: "Residential Contractor: requires 48 months experience with a passing grade on an approved test and a Business and Law test. It means a Contractor whose services are limited to construction, remodeling, repair, or improvement of one- 19 October 19,2016 family, two-family, or three-family residences not exceeding two stories in height and accessory use structures in connection therewith." "Building Contractor: requires 48 months experience with a passing grade on an approved test and a Business and Law test. It means a Contractor whose services are limited to construction of commercial buildings and single-dwelling or multiple- dwelling residential buildings, which commercial or residential buildings do not exceed three stories in height, and accessory use structures in connection therewith or a Contractor whose services are limited to remodeling, repair, or improvement of any size building if the services do not affect the structural members of the building." "General Contractor: requires 48 months experience with a passing grade on an approved test and a Business and Law test. It means a Contractor whose services are unlimited as to the type of work which he/she may do, except as provided in this article or in the Florida Statutes." Chairman Lykos questioned the Applicant: Q. Did you hear the different descriptions? You probably understand exactly what you are coming into today, don't you? A. If you can give me the Residential one now, by next year, I can put more experience to the Building or a General. Q. If I remember the last time you were here, that was not an option you wanted to pursue. But now it is—right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So based on your experience and based on what you have told us today, it sounds like the most appropriate license would be the Residential Contractor's License. It is one, two or three-family homes, up to two stories tall. It could be three stories if the ground floor is parking with two habitable stories above. Elle Hunt: It wasn't mentioned but his credit score is 592. I don't know if that is part of our conversation. Patrick White: It is for me. Chairman Lykos: Okay. Kyle Lantz: For some reason, I thought we vetted the credit in April. Elle Hunt: We may have. I just wanted us to re-discuss considering it is six months later—a"what have you done lately" conversation around the credit because even if we had given you a license, it would probably have been probationary. Manuel Orosa: We pay my all of my accounts—we pay at the bank all the time. My credit for the first time from my business to here has gone up. Chairman Lykos directed his question to Ian Jackson. Q. You did not list his credit as part of our consideration today. Do you have some insight on the credit side of this? A. Because Mr. Orosa has been incorporated for more than one year, I looked primarily at his business credit report, per our Code. Q. Okay. Ms. Hunt, are you comfortable with that? Okay. 20 October 19. 2016 Kyle Lantz questioned the Applicant: Q. Can you tell me how far along you are on your new house? A. At the end of this week, we do the tie-beam. Q. And what part of that did you do yourself? Any of the concrete? A. I do supervise and check everything is fine. I take care of all the plumbing—the underground plumbing. I waiting for the — I do it with my hands, anything. I stay here all the time, in person. Q. So you have subbed out the slab work? A. Yes. We subbed out on Saturday. We do the form and the concrete, everything. It is coming back. I am working my business, too. Q. And you subbed out the block work? A. Yes. Q. The same company? A. Is a different company. Q. How about the tie-beams ... same company as the block? A. We use the same company as do the slab. Q. And the plumbing? A. Is the same guy who did the finish. For the underground, the roof, and the trim— we use the same guy. Q. But you subbed out the plumbing? A. Yes. Q. And how is the electric work? A. We are not ready yet. Vice Chairman Joslin: You haven't finished the house yet? Manuel Orosa: No, the tie beam is coming ... we do the tie beam at the end of the week. Kyle Lantz: Q. So what are you doing to oversee and supervise? Are you inspecting any of the . A. Yeah. We check the blue print where the guy is doing—everything is good. Q. So as long as the Inspector says it's good, you're happy. A. Yeah. Chairman Lykos: Q. How often do you go by the construction site? Do you go every day or once a week? A. We do a little at a time, you know. It's in Golden Gate Estates and I live in Golden Gate City. After I leave here, I will go to there to check. Kyle Lantz: Q. So what is the slab — is it a slab on grade? A. Yes—we do the slab —we do the 18-inch with the center line. Q. Is the slab a fiber-mesh? A. So we do the fiber—yes. You need the fiber to do the slab. Q. Okay. And you have rebar? A. Yes. But when on the slab, no. What do you call ... the footers? 21 October 19, 2016 Chairman Lykos noted a translator was available if Mr. Orosa needed help. He admonished the Board to not help him along by supplying the vocabulary. Let's have Mr. Orosa tell us through his translator the words we want to hear. The translator, Katy Guerrero, was sworn in by the Board's attorney, James Morey. Kyle Lantz: Q. So is it a stem wall or a monolithic slab? A. What was the question to me? Q. Is it a stem wall or a monolithic slab? A. A monolithic slab. Q. Can you tell me how a monolithic slab works? A. I don't understand your question—say again. Q. I want you to describe to me what a monolithic slab is—maybe what the difference is between a monolithic slab and a stem wall. I want to make sure you understand. A. The difference—a stem wall, you need to do the foundation—on the bloc and on the top. It is different from the other one where you do the land and the slab after. I'm a little nervous and ... the language barrier. Q. You're doing good. Patrick White: Q. Can you explain how the rebar works from the foundation up to the tie-beam? A. Say again? Q. How does the rebar work between the slab and the tie-beam? A. The steel ... and the tie-beam, what's the difference? Q. How do they connect? What do they do? A. When you do the slab, you do the bar and you connect to the tie beam. My house —you do the "u-block" on the tie beam. That's how we do it. Vice Chairman Joslin: Q. How far apart are the bars spaced? The steel? A. I don't remember right now. We do the slab and we come today to finish the block. A. (Translator) I believe he just poured the foundation. Q. I understand that. I am asking him how far apart are the bars spaced? A. Seven— six foot. Sometimes, I don't understand the question. Patrick White: Q. We understand. We know you know what's out there in the field. A. Yeah. Chairman Lykos directed his question to Ian Jackson: Q. If we were to recommend restrictions on the license—let's say —my concern is if we give him a General Contractor's License with restrictions down to the limits of a Residential Contractor's License. What's the difference between that and just granting a Residential License? 22 October I9,2016 A. I think for our system, and to regulate it efficiently and properly, if the Board chooses to issue a license, it should issue a Residential Contractor's License rather than a General Contractor with restrictions. It was noted the Board agreed the Applicant did not meet the qualifications for a General Contractor's License. Patrick White stated the difference may be that the Applicant could come back, administratively, if he were able to show the 48 months of experience in any of the more substantial categories. In my opinion, by making it a Residential license only, we are assured of seeing him again where we can evaluate his experience again at some point in time. Chairman Lykos: I understand it from the County's standpoint. I just need a motion. Vice Chairman Joslin asked the Applicant if he would be willing to accept a Residential Contractor's license and his response was, "Yes." Patrick White moved to approve granting a Residential Contractor's License to Manuel Orosa. Vice Chairman Joslin offered a Second in support of the motion. Discussion: • Kyle Lantz stated he was still leery concerning the Applicant's structural experience. He further stated he would vote against the motion. "I just feel if I have someone working on one of my jobs or on my house, I want someone who has done more than just schedule someone —I want some who will do more than show up and watch somebody else work. I want someone who will look at the job and know what is structural and what is not." • Vice Chairman Joslin noted if he is building a home, he will fail a lot of inspections if he doesn't know what he is doing. Chairman Lykos called for a vote on the motion. The motion carried, 6— "Yes"/2— "No." Elle Hunt and Kyle Lantz were opposed. Chairman Lykos addressed his comments to Mr. Orosa: You have a Residential Contractor's License. Go and work within the limitations of that license and learn more. Good luck to you. IX. OLD BUSINESS: (None) X. PUBLIC HEARINGS: (None) 23 October 19, 2016 NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 BCC Chambers, 3rd Floor—Administrative Building "F," Government Complex, 3301 E. Tamiami Trail,Naples, FL There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by the order of the Chairman at 11:00 AM. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICE; SING BOARD At 1 THOMAS L OS, Ch rman The Minutes were approved by the Charman on , 2016, "as submitted" DC OR "as amended" F 1. 24