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PVAC Minutes 12/03/2002 RDecember 3, 2002 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE PUBLIC VEHICLE ADVISORY COMMITTEE Naples, FL, December 3, 2002 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Public Vehicle Advisory Committee, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00AM in the Auditorium of the Sugden Library, Naples, Florida, with the following members present: Members: Nick Whitney Dan Shriner William Csogi Pat Baisley Allen Walbum Collier County Staff: Tom Palmer, Michelle Arnold, Ekna Hu, Lisa Koeholer Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY PUBLIC VEHICLE ADVISORY COMMITTEE December 3, 2002 9:00 AM Collier County Head Quarters Library 2385 Orange Blossom Drive Sugden Library Theater ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. PLEASE ENSURE ALL PAGERS AND CELL PHONES ARE OFF OR IN A QUIET POSITION. I. Roll Call II. Additions or Deletions III. Approval of Agenda IV. Special Meeting Approval of Minutes: November 12, 2002 Notices VI. New Business: Request for approval to Operate a Vehicle for Hire Service a) Pelican Transportation Service for Certificate to Operate b) Pelican Cab Company application for Sub-Certificate c) A-1 Limo of Naples application for Sub-Certificate VII. Hearing VIII. Old Business IX. Complaint Report X. Discussion a) Elite Limousine log book review XI. Announcements Public Vehicle Advisory Committee The Auditorium of the Sugden Library Naples, FL 9:00AM December 3, 2002 Minutes December 3, 2002 The meeting was called to order at 9:20AM. II. Attendance: Members: Nick Whitney, Dan Shriner, William Csogi, Pat Baisley, Allen Walbum -Eric Hyde was absent. Collier County Staff: Tom Palmer, Michelle Arnold, Ekna Hu, Lisa Koeholer Additions or Deletions -There were no additions, deletions, or changes to the agenda. IlL Approval of Agenda Pat Baisley made a motion to approve the agenda. It was seconded by Mr. Whitney. All were in favor. The motion passed unanimously, 5-0. IV. Approval of Minutes for September 12 and November 12, 2002 -Pat Baisley made a motion to approve the November 12, 2002 and thc September 12, 2002 minutes as written. It was seconded by Mr. Shriner. All were in favor. The motion passed unanimously, 5-0. Notices -Michelle Arnold reported that there were no notices. VI. New Business: Page 2 December 3, 2002 Request for approval to Operate a Vehicle for Hire Service A) Pelican Transportation Services application for Certificate to Operate -Mr. Whitney focused himself from this topic. -Michclle Arnold informed the committee that this was carried over from the last meeting. The only outstanding issue was that the committee had requested a name change. -Mr. Whitney stated that he had changed the name. The name had been changed from Dolphin Cab to Pelican Transportation in order to avoid confusion with an existing company. He also asked for a sub-certificate for Pelican taxi for different types of service. -Mr. Csogi stated that the application listed Lambart Ln. for the business address and yet there was a different address for a lease exchange. He asked why there were the two addresses. Mr. Whitney explained that he had a lease ready on Exchange Avenue when he went to get the zoning. After remodeling, the office numbers had been changed and no longer correlated with county records. Because of this, Mr. Whitney used his home address until the situation could be worked out with the county. -Mr. Csogi asked if Exchange Avenue was going to be the correct address. Mr. Whitney stated it would. -Mr. Csogi made a motion to approve as long as Mr. Whitney hands all the paperwork into the office with the name change to Pelican Transportation. It was seconded by Allen Walbum. All were in favor. The motion passed unanimously, 4-0. (Mr. Whitney recused himself from voting). -Mr. Csogi clarified that the motion to approve included approval for a sub-certificate. B) A-1 Limo of Naples application for sub-certificate -Mr. Csogi read the paragraph in the ordinance pertaining to sub-certificates, "No sub- certificate shall operate as a full certificate nor add a vehicle to the certificate nor otherwise add a function that can be accomplished by amending the certificate." He stated that A-1 is requesting a sub-certificate for a transportation under the full certificate of Elite Limousine as a transportation company. He added that this was not within their guidelines. Mr. Palmer stated that he believed that it was within the guidelines. As he Page 3 December 3, 2002 understood the situation, the vehicle was operating under a different name than the business. -Mr. Csogi replied that it did not say anything about a "name" in ordinance 21 Sub paragraph B. -Mr. Palmer stated that the certificate should be amended to say that the business is operating both as Elite and A-1. If this can be done, he added that the certificate should be amended. But he believed that the purpose was so that you did not have more than one entity, other than the name, operating under one certificate. Mr. Csogi stated that he agreed if it could be amended to a cab and limo company, then that is what should be done. His concern was that it should not be amended to have two different trade names for the same service, because it would be deceiving. -Pat Baisley added that they were both performing the same type of service; limousine transportation. -Mr. Palmer stated the guidelines say that it can be used to add one trade name to the applicant's full certificate. He explained that this supercedes the prior argument. Mr. Csogi stated that he agreed that they could add one trade name, but the preceding sentence says that they can only add a trade name as long as it does not perform the same duties that could be accomplished by amending the original certificate. He believed that when they wrote this, the goal was that a separate service would be preformed. For example: yellow cab and yellow limo company. -Mr. Walburn stated that he agreed with this. He requested that they ask the applicant what the intentions were for adding the trade name. -Mr. Csogi stated that he already had their submitted application, therefore he wanted to consult with staff and come to a decision rather than hear from the applicant again. -Mr. Shriner stated that the only issue he had, is that when this is normally done, it is from the same location. He believed that all sub-certificates should be located at the same location as where the full certificate had been issued. He added that when it is a separate location from the full certificate then he believed it was a separate business. Mr. Palmer replied that the ordinance is silent on the issue of separate locations. It does not say that they must have a separate certificate for a separate location. He added that he did not understand what the policy behind this would be. He explained that what they are interested in is knowing that qualified operators are operating professionally with safe vehicles. They do need to know where they are located, but the fact that they are located at two separate locations is irrelevant. Mr. Shriner agreed this was true, but asked where Page 4 December 3, 2002 the log records would have to be kept. His concern was that if you had 50 companies, half of them could have sub-certificates at satellite offices and then the question of where records are kept will arise. Mr. Palmer replied that the purpose of record location is so the records are available if the county needs them. He explained that it is irrelevant if the records are kept at the branch office or at the satellite as long as they were attainable. Mr. Shriner referred to his example of 50 companies, half having sub-certificates, and stated that it would be a large area for staff to cover in attempt of getting records. Mr. Palmer stated that staff didn't have to "do anything", that location was irrelevant, as long as the records were made accessible to the county. He added that they can't superimpose resolutions on the ordinance unless they adopt a resolution to do so and if the resolution is not in conflict with any other part of the ordinance. Mr. Palmer explained that there was nothing in the ordinance that stated the records for A-1 must be kept at Elite, only that they be made accessible to the county. -Mr. Csogi stated that the next paragraph reads, "sub-certificates are a courtesy to the certificate holder, whereby all decisions by the PVAC to grant or deny a sub-certificate are final". He asked what the ramifications were if they denied this request. Mr. Palmer informed him that they could deny it, but he felt there needed to be a way to solve the situation with the advertising error. Mr. Csogi stated that the advertising error was a separate issue. Mr. Palmer then explained that if they denied the sub-certificate, then it was the end of it, there would be no sub-certificate. -Mr. Shriner stated that after hearing Mr. Palmer expand on the situation, he has no knowledge of any other certificate holder with a sub-certificate at another location. He believed that this would be an exception of what had happened in the past, if they chose to approve it. Mr. Palmer explained that this was a new provision, which had only been in the ordinance for a little over a year. -Michele Arnold asked Mr. Csogi what was the purpose of placing, "No sub-certificate shall operate as a full certificate nor add a vehicle to the certificate nor otherwise add a function that can be accomplished by amending the certificate," into the ordinance. Mr. Csogi informed her that he understood that it was for companies that have two separate services. He used Yellow Cab Company using a limo and a taxi service. -Mr. Walbum stated that he would like to hear from the applicant, because he believed they could clear up a lot of the issues as to what the intent of the sub-certificate was for. Mr. Palmer agreed with this. He wanted to find out what the purpose of the sub- certificate was and have it on the record. Page 5 December 3, 2002 -Mr. Walbum added that he believed it would make more sense if the petitioner got a full certificate. Mr. Csogi stated that when you have a sub-certificate it can "piggy-back" off the insurance and other items of the full certificate. He believed this "cost factor" was probably driving the request for the sub-certificate. Mr. Palmer replied that the trade name issue is what drove the request for the sub-certificate. -Mr. Walbum stated that he wanted to know how the two companies were going to be divided. Mr. Csogi replied that they did not have an application for a cab company under a limo company. Mr. Walburn informed him that he agreed, but it appeared that they want to piggyback the insurance, yet operate a separate stand-alone company. Mr. Csogi stated that he believed this was a moot point, because if the application was incorrect then they have not heard them in the past. -Mr. Shriner stated that if it was for him to decide, he would go back to the original company and lease that limo from that company and move on. He stated that he knew this was not the issue they were discussing, and he added that he would do what the majority does. -Pat Baisley stated that she understood when one applied for a sub-certificate, they had to have the same owner as the full certificate. She added that you can't have a separate company under the same certificate. -Mr. Walburn asked if they had any other documentation or application information to review before they make a decision. Michele stated that there was no additional information. She added that they have the insurance policies and the vehicle is registered under Elite. Pat Baisley and Mr. Csogi noted that there was a difference in ownership. Michele Arnold explained that Elite Limo was applying for the sub-certificate and Debbie is the owner of the vehicle, but she sub-contracts from Elite. Therefore, A-1 is attempting to get a sub-certificate under Elite. Mr. Walburn asked if they had a certificate of insurance for Elite Limo. Michele Arnold stated that they do. Mr. Walburn then asked if they had a list of the vehicles that are insured and licensed to operate under the name of Elite. Michele Arnold replied that they did. Mr. Walbum asked why they did not have it to review. Michele Arnold informed him that they did not have it because this did not concern the vehicle, it concerned the application for the sub-certificate. She added that the ordinance states if the staff has the information on file, then it is considered a complete application. -Pat Baisley asked who they showed for ownership of both companies. Ekna Hu informed her that Elite was applying for the sub-certificate, not Debbie Weber. Rick Page 6 December 3, 2002 Scott is applying for the sub-certificate and he is the owner of Elite. Mr. Walbum asked who the owner was of A-1. Ekna Hu informed him that Elite Limo was the owner. -Mr. Csogi stated that he didn't want to approve the application without the information. He explained that they don't have the charges, color scheme, etc.. He explained that his point is that they are applying for a sub-certificate, right or wrong under the guidelines, but they didn't hand in any information as far as color scheme and registration. Mr. Shriner stated that this was his point as well. Rick Scott, owner and operator of Elite Limo, stated that the vehicle is registered with Collier County under A-1. The vehicle has been leased to Elite since it began 2 ½ years ago. He explained that Debbie Weber is his niece. He added that Elite meets all the criteria for Collier County. The vehicle has been under Elite for a number of years and it meets all the criteria as well. He stated that the problem rose from Debbie's mistake in the advertisement in the yellow pages. He understands that the only way to resolve the situation is to get a sub-certificate. He went on to inform the committee that everything was in order, they complied with all the county requests. It is running as two separate limo services, two separate locations with the satellite location located in Naples and the base in Fort Myers. He does not understand what the issue is, because the problem rose from an advertising error. He explained that they were informed it could be corrected by a sub-certificate and there is no way that they can take the advertising out of the yellow pages at this point. -Pat Baisley stated that they could disconnect the phone number. -Mr. Csogi asked if they had a problem with Debbie Weber applying for and operating under a full certificate. Mr. Scott stated that they were led in the direction of a sub- certificate to resolve the advertising error. -Mr. Csogi stated that this did not all come up over an advertising error. He explained that the error was because Debbie Weber was operating a separate company and was not licensed to operate under A-1. Mr. Csogi stated that if she applied for a full certificate then there would not be a problem. -Mr. Whitney stated that for a sub-certificate it would have to be a limo service and a taxi service, not just a limo service. -Michele Arnold stated that she had asked Debbie Weber if she had a problem applying for a full certificate. Debbie Weber had told her that she had no problem in doing so. Michele Arnold added that her only concern was the timing issue, since this has been going on for a few months. Page 7 December 3, 2002 -Mr. Palmer stated that he believed what they were asking for was a clear reason for a sub-certificate. He further explained that Debbie Weber doesn't have a separate business. Debbie Weber owns a company, that owns a vehicle, and leases it to Rick Scott. Mr. Csogi stated that this is what they were telling the committee, but it is not what they are doing. The committee stated that they are operating a separate business. Mr. Palmer asked how it is that they are operating a separate business. Mr. Walburn informed him that it was because they were advertising, soliciting, and accepting business under A-1. Mr. Palmer stated yes, this was an advertising conduit. He added that Elite operates, insures, and runs the vehicle. The only way that Debbie Weber is involved is that she owns a vehicle and leases that vehicle to Mr. Scott. He then re-stated that she did not own a separate business, merely she owns a vehicle. They are applying for a sub- certificate only so they can continue taking phone calls for A-1 limo, which is operated by Elite. This is adding a trade name under Elite. -Mr. Csogi asked why Elite didn't come in and ask for a trade name. Mr. Palmer informed him that this is "essentially" what they are doing; applying for a sub-certificate to operate under a separate trade name. -Mr. Walbum asked if the calls were coming into someone other than Elite, the drivers were being dispatched by someone other than Elite, and the cars were driven by someone other than Elite, would it be a full certificate. Mr. Palmer stated that it would be a full certificate. He explained that this is not the case here. Mr. Scott elaborated that this vehicle is located in Collier, the phone calls come into A-1 limo in Naples answered by Debbie, Debbie dispatches from down here. Debbie Weber explained that she uses Elites Drivers, they drive down in their personal vehicles, and pick up the A-1 limo leased to Elite. -Mr. Walburn stated he had "anecdotal evidence" that they have operated this vehicle in this county with drivers that are local and not affiliated with Elite. -Mr. Palmer stated that, that was a charge... Mr. Walburn interrupted to say that he had said "anecdotal". Mr. Palmer stated that "anecdotal" means one or two incidences. Mr. Walburn agreed and explained that he knew drivers who were willing to come in and testify that they operated this vehicle and were hired and paid by someone other than Elite. -Mr. Csogi stated that it was clear that a sub-certificate was a courtesy. Also, that they could add a trade name, but a trade name should not be performing the same duties. Page 8 December 3, 2002 Because the trade name was not performing a separate duty, Mr. Csogi made a motion to deny the application for a sub-certificate. -Mr. Shriner asked how long A-1 of Naples had been answering the phone. Debbie Weber stated, since September of last year. Mr. Shriner said that people sometimes use two phone numbers because they get two calls from people going through the phone book, which is unfair competition. -The motion was recalled. It was seconded by Mr. Walburn. All were in favor of the denial. The motion for denial passed unanimously, 5-0. VI. Hearing -There were no scheduled hearings. VII. Old Business A) Log books for Classic Taxi and Checker Cab -Mr. Csogi asked if Classic Taxi had sent a notice for their logbook. Mr. Walbum had made a motion requesting the log book in the meeting on September 12, 2002 for tag # A72DLZ. They also requested the logbooks for Checker Cab. Michele Arnold stated that she would have to get back to them on this at the next meeting. VIII. Complaint Reports -Mr. Csogi stated that they had requested Elite's log books for the date in question when staff accepted a ride from A-1. He asked if they had received anything from Elite. Michele Arnold replied that Rick Scott had indicated he had faxed most of the information. She explained that the information he had faxed was limited. It had the vehicle # and the name, but no information with respect to the trip, location, etc.. -Mr. Scott stated he did not send more due to the confidentiality of his customers. Mr. Palmer stated that confidentiality was not an issue. -Mr. Csogi asked if they asked specifically for that one vehicle or for the entire log books. Michele Arnold stated her recollection was the complete logbooks for a specific timeframe. Mr. Csogi stated that was his recollection as well. Michele Arnold explained that Rick Scott was told by his attorney that he could protect the confidentiality of his customers. She suggested that the committee direct her staff on what to look for and they would review that information and report back to the committee. Page 9 December 3, 2002 -Mr. Palmer asked what the purpose of this. Mr. Csogi stated that they had a substantial case that was put together from code enforcement where they are trying to find out who owns a specific vehicle. Mr. Scott stated that the vehicle was leased to him. Mr. Palmer stated that it was established that the county called A-1 and the vehicle leased by Elite was dispatched. -Mr. Shriner asked Mr. Scott if his car on 6/7/02 took a trip to RSW. Mr. Scott stated that it did. Mr. Shriner then asked if he had a state sales tax number and why he charged 6% sales tax. Mr. Csogi told Mr. Scott not to answer that question. He explained that they are not the Department of Revenue and this is not relevant. Mr. Scott stated that they do not collect tax. Mr. Csogi stated that this was not part of the ordinance and they were not here to discuss it. Mr. Shriner pointed out that the ordinance states they must comply with all state laws. Mr. Palmer and Mr. Csogi stated that it should then be pointed out to the proper authorities but not be discussed here, and that this was done at the last meeting. -Mr. Csogi explained that there goal was that all operators in Collier County be certificated. He informed the committee that what had happened was, they sent a notice to A-1 and no one ever got back to them. Mr. Scott stated that it was because they sent it to the wrong place. Michele Arnold had then told Mr. Scott to come in for a sub- certificate. Mr. Csogi added that all they need to do now is come in for a full certificate. Rick Scott verified that Debbie Weber does not have a problem with this. -Mr. Csogi stated that the second point is that they had requested logbooks that were not handed in. Mr. Scott stated he did send in parts, but left out some items due to confidentiality. -Mr. Csogi stated that he was willing to waive the hearing as long as Debbie Weber came in and got certificated. Mr. Walburn stated that was all he wanted. -Mr. Csogi stated that he had concerns that they would lack credibility when they asked for something and it was never handed in. Mr. Palmer stated that they could bring a case of "failure to abide by the ordinance and failure to abide by the responsibility to respond". He added that the claim of confidentiality had no basis. -Mr. Scott gave the copies of the logbooks to Michele Arnold. He stated that he was not turning in his physical trip tickets, because there are phone numbers, credit card numbers, etc... Mr. Palmer stated they did not want the credit card numbers, etc... Page 10 Xe December 3, 2002 -Mr. Csogi made a statement that the current situation is to table the issue, since Mr. Scott handed in the information, everyone understands the situation and is working on coming into compliance with the ordinance through the application for a full certificate. -Mr. Palmer clarified that they are saying, they have the records and no further action needs to be taken regarding the response of providing the records. Mr. Csogi stated that was correct. -Michele Arnold asked what they would like her to do with the records. Mr. Csogi informed her that review is a moot point since they are coming into compliance, but to hold on to the records. Other Discussions -Michele Arnold stated that they did not get the records from Classic Taxi or Checker Cab, but she did not believe that they requested it. She added that they will get that information for the next meeting. She clarified that the request for records was due to Mr. Bridenthal's complaints. -Mr. Shriner stated that he had spoken with Mr. Bridenthal that morning and Mr. Bridenthal had stated that he wanted to re-iterate his complaints. Adjournment- Adjournment was at 10:08AM. Page 11