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Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Group Minutes 02/21/2008 :lIIm BllY Estlllill'Y Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE Clam Bll)' E~ Discussion Meeting Thursday, February 21,2008 LET IT BE REMEMBERED that a meeting was held for all interested parties in the Clam Bl:'lY Estual'y, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 AM at Coastal Zone Management, 3300 Santa Barbara Boulevard, Naples, Florida, with the following speakers: DISCUSSION COMMIITEE: Gary McAlpin, Coastal Zone Management Director Dave Tomasko, PBS&J - Consultant Councilman John F. Sorey HI, CAC Member Jim Burke, CAC and PBSD Member Coleman Connell, Chairman ofPBSD Mike Bauer, City of Naples PUBLIC PRESENT: Gail Hambright, CC Tourist Tax Coordinator Pamela Keyes, CC Envirornnental Specialist John Petty Janice Lamen David RoelIig Doug Finley Bryn Womble Eric Staats Kathy Worley Mary Ann Womble Tom Cravens Marcia Cravens Martha Dykeman Tim Hall Kyle Luckas ~ Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 2 I , 2008 ODeniRl! Remarks Gary McAlpin - Meeting was called to order at 9:00am with each individual introducing themselves. This meeting was noticed by both the CAC and the PBSD Board. Councilman Sorey noted for the media that this meeting had been properly noticed as a number of members were present from various boards. There are a number of issues that needed to be addressed relative to this estuary and the Tomasko report created a need to take a broader look at these issues. We have been talking back and forth as a county for a period oftime and it was suggested that we get together as a working group, to invite members of the community, to talk about some of these issues and how we would move forward to address them. We invited Jim Burke who is on the Pelican Bay Services Division Board of Directors along with Coleman Connell who is Chairman of that Board to be part of this discussion group and represent the Pelican Bay Services Division. The City of Naples has expressed an interest to be part of this discussion group because part of Clam Bay resides in the City of Naples. We have asked Councilman Sorey and Mike Bauer to be part of this group and I am here to represent Collier County. We also said we would involve consultants as needed and for this meeting David Tomosko has been invited. Dave has some issues relative to water quality that he wants to talk about and discuss. The objective of this work group is to discuss what we consider the loose ends from the Tomasko report. This would form the basis for moving forward with a new permit application. The new permit application would replace the existing permit which is currently expiring and will be renewed for a year. We believe that these things need to be discussed and then make a decision on how to move forward with the new perm it applicalion. An e-mail is being passed out from Leo Ochs to John Petty that clearly expresses the County's desire to pull tngether a group to develop a "go-forward" plan to insure that the Clam Bay eco system is maintained and perhaps further enhanced in the years ahead. This is what we want to try to accomplish. In this e-mail, attached hereto as Exhibit I, on pages I and 2, we havc summarized in bullet points what we believe are the issues that need to be addressed from the Tomasko report. In no order of importance is the following: continued yearly monitoring of sea grass in the method recommended by Dr. Tomasko; water sampling; different, more effective monitoring locations and need to talk about where the locations are best for the entire community; a QN AC fOcus for the water sampling; uniform testing tor each sampling; publish test results lor the entire community; a yearly water quality report for the entire Estuary; education program on nutrient runoff control; action plans to address the water quality issues of Seagate and Venetian Bay; permit to address sand bypassing, 2 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 flood and ebb tide shoals and affect down dri ft beaches; what biological habitat uses Clam Bay and how do we make it the best it can be; how this permit will be administered, managed and by who; resolve the channel markings for boat access which is an open issue from the last permit.; and lastly, cut out the duplication of effort and funds some of which are the duplicate H&M Reports, the water quality activities, and the monitoring of the hard bottom. The intent today is to discuss these items and work toward a plan moving forward. We have tentatively identified a one year work period during which we can identifY these items, work them as a group and come up with some solutions so that we can put this into the permit application. I know there a number of people that may not necessarily agree with all the items outlined and think they are superfluous. Our intent is not to criticize the work done by Pelican Bay. Pelican Bay has done an excellent job of managing these resources. We are not here to debate that, to criticize or take away anything from the effort that has been done from this point and time. I am now going to turn the meeting over to Dr. Tomasko to discuss why he believes we need to pay attention to the items I mentioned earlier and why this is a bigger issue than we all mayor may not recognize. After David's presentation, I will open the floor to discuss inn about approach, intent and the next steps. Concerns about the Water Quality and Aporoach to Date David Tomasko- This report was assisted by Collier County, Pamela Keyes; Collier County Laboratories did all the water analysis for the work that was done for what is called the optical model, which consist of what is it that affects water clarity; what nutrient is most important; and control of algae growth. Pollution loading models were done by one of PBS&J engineers. These are the contribution of other people. It was noted that Dr. Tomasko does not care how Clam Bay comes out; if it comes out to be severely degraded or pristine. I can't care as a scientist how things come out, that's political and what I am committed to is the science and what the science says. As a point of clarifieation, Gary McAlpin pointed out that when we talk about the Estuary we are talking from Seagate Drive to the north end. We considered the entire watershed because you can't look only at a portion of it and be successful. The culverts under Seagate Drive and how important the water connectinn is represents an overall management issue. If this is a tidal connection then waters to the south of Seagate Drive and the waters to the north of Seagate Drive have an ability to influence water quality in Clam Bay. Also, the landscape in parts of the watershed is very important to the integrated storm water best management practices. Pelican Bay has a very impressive storm water treatment system. There are other neighborhoods where 3 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21,2008 there is basically no storm water treatment. The entirety of the watershed can influence Clam Bay. If that watershed extends south of Sea gate Drive, then this is part ofthe pollution loading model. In general this report came out somewhat in the middle of the view of some that Clam Bay was in total collapse. No one has necessary said that, but it seems that some people thought it was in really bad shape. There was no evidence of that but on the other hand it is not pristine. We are limited on how wc can classify the health ofthe system. One thing we felt was important was the sea grass issue. We felt the sea grass issue kind of got blown up. You can't use an aerial photograph that has not been ground truthed. We arc not quite sure you had an 80% decline in sea grass coverage. We went to other locations outside of Clam Bay and did not find sea grass to be a major feature. Sea grass is not always the best indicator of a healthy system. The methods used for monitoring sea grass acreage in the past, was inappropriate. Transects are very useful depending on how they are used. However, you can't ereate an acreage estimate from a transect station because it's not random. Likewise, you can't adequately estimate sea grasses from a photograph but instead, you need to get into the water. There is more sea grass in the system than previously indicated. What we concluded was that Clam Bay sea grass acreage was probably not the best indicator of the health of the system. What we found is that Pelican Bay has a storm water treatment system that is very impressive. We did not find any evidence of any short cutting or short cycling of the waterflow. But this does not necessary mean that there is no impact. It is just probably a very minimal impact. The area south of Seagate Drive did not have anything. The water quality in Clam Bay is a little bit tricky. If you go into the water quality data set, there are some things you need to be aware of. There are water quality standards in Florida that don't necessarily make sense, but they are there. One is dissolved oxygen. The dissolved oxygen standard in Florida is that the average can't be less than 5 and no values are to go below 4. There are plenty of places in Flnrida that do not meet these standards and it has nothing to do with pollution. Looking at the data we have from Pelican Bay, 20 years of data is a great data set to have. However, seven of those 20 years the average DO does not meet standards. Does this mean that it is grossly polluted? I don't know. But it does mean you have to explain it and you have to make the case of how much is natural and how much isn't. If that data gets into Storrett (the states data management system) and it is uploaded by DEP, they are going to say you are impaired for DO and that is going to trigger the Total Maximum Daily Load (TMDL) program. If you don't have local control of the TMDL program, you could be left with stuff that is expensive and makes no sense at all. There are some quality assurance/quality control (QA/QC) issues with some of the water quality data. The nitrate levels ifhigher than 0.8 which means nitrogen as a whole is going to be higher that 0.8. The data set from station WI, which is in Clam Bay, had a nitrate reading of 70. This does not make sense as this is more than you would find in septic tanks or the runoff from a dairy _ However, this data is out there for 6 months. This data set needs to be cleared up or you have something weird going on. 4 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 2 1,2008 In our analysis and report, we felt very uncomfortable using this data set as it did not make any sense. You need to be careful with this data set. I don't feel this is a real number but it is there. My suggestion is to take local control of this. You don't have to have a TMDL program. Talk with DEP and get involved with the TMDL program and tell them your issues and concerns. Find out a way to do this or you can sit back and be a passive viewer and watch the state roll the TMDL program out and it could be scary. You can come up with your own water quality goals, own course of action, document the value of what you're doing and get approved by DEP and EPA. If you don't do this YOUfselfyou're at the mercy hoping that the state does good science. This does not always happen, they have to do thc whole State of Florid a and if they don't, someone will go to jail. It is a Federal requirement. TMDL are not something that you can opt out of. My view is local control is better than having it done by someone in Tallahassee or even worse in Washington DC. Mike Bauer injected at this point that the City of Naples instituted some very strict water sampling program 2 Y, years ago. The City does the sampling and the QA/Qc. They put this into Storrett. As a result of this program, Naples Bay has been taken off the TMOL list for nutrients. It is very important to the local Government for us to do our own work and get this stuff into the state Data Management system. Gary McAlpin injeeted at this point that not everyone sitting in this room is going to agree that there is an issue or a problem. Howcver, with the data we have eollected over the years, if we are not proactive in managing our system, DEP could eome in forcing solutions on us that will be very expensive. You may disagree with the "work group" approach or not, but the real issue is that there is a potential liability out there that's facing the eounty. Obviously it is facing Pelican Bay as well. This is the point that I wanted to make with Dave coming in here. This is an issue that was not addressed in the Tomasko's report. We do have issues with the water quality data, potentially the way the water quality data was taken and the QA/QC aspect ofthat inforrnation. There may bc other issues but at a minimum we have some issues here that need to be cleared up. David Tomasko continued that just DO can trip you up all by itself. Most biologists would agree that productive systems in Southwest Florida do not always stay above 5.0. You have annual averages that are less than 4. This is going to trigger people wanting you to document why you think this is not a problem. We are going to have to have a better data center. You can say it doesn't happen very often but they don't care ifit doesn't happen very often - it happens. John Petty addressed the group by stating that when we speak to the issue of water quality, that data is taken as a requirement of South Water Management with the permit and its intent is to check the effectiveness of the water management systems. Treating this storrn water runoff in Pelican Bay so that it emulates pre-construction conditions, the data supports that it is very effective in doing that. To highlight an area in 1990 that may have had a 6 month string of poor readings without checking with PBSD eludes to some problem that is not understood. We understand, that is when the County took over and it 5 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion M~~ting February 21, 2008 went through different labs and it took them a while to figure it out. No attempt was made to correlate that study with the people that may have that information. So if you have questions, let's not put it out on the table that we don't have answers. John Petty continued that Pelican Bay is very interested in its storm water system. It has committed a great deal of money \0 that system. We would like to think that we are a shining example of coastal development taking that responsibility. We understand Collier County's conc~rns that they don't have such a system. To say that Pelican Bay may be leading our concern with the state on triggering these maximum contaminant levels, I think we may hav~ start~d ofT with the best, not the worst. Pelican Bay may have the best coastal situation. I think the county has a real issue and that is why they created the Coastal Advisory Committee and Coastal Zone Management. To say that it is a Pelican Bay issue at that point, I don't believe. To say that it's a County issue, I very much believe and I think everyone at this tablc that lives in Collier County understands the impact. To talk about this as just a Clam Bay issue is the first miss-step. Gary McAlpin interjected that the focus 1 want the meeting to take is that nobody is saying that Clam Bay has an issue. First oft; no one is pointing a finger at Pelican Bay Services Division in saying there is an issue here. What we are saying is that we have a permit application that is going to go in for renewal. There appears to be some inconsistencies with thc data. It's a larger issue, an estuary issue and those issues need to be discussed as a group and worked as a group. City of Naples contributes to those issues, Collier County contributes to those issues, and Pelican Bay mayor may not contribute to those issues, but if we don't address this estuary in it's entirety and it's whole wc are not going to be where we want to at the end of the day. We are dealing with this one right now bccause the time for the permitting is here. It is not to say that Collier County doesn't have any other issues with any of the other estuaries that we have. We do, and we will address them. The way to solve a problem is to address them one at a time and that is what we are trying to do. Mike Bauer commented at this point; Lct me also say to John, there is a water quality issue. We don't have all the data but it is likely coming from the south. You have a great system and if there is a water quality issue in outer Clam Bay I think it is highly likely it is coming from the south. John Petty asked, Dr. Tomasko, is there a problem with water quality? David Tomasko replied; I would say that it depends on what you compare it to. If you want me to answer yes or no, I will tell you that I cannot answer. I don't know what it was and what you want it to be. Does it not meet state standards? Yes, it does not meet state standards. Do the state standards make sense for Clam Bay? We don't have the data set to support that. I would say; it is easy to say that the DO standards are not met in Clam Bay 7 years out of 20 years. So, is that a water quality problem, it is in the regulatory arena. John Petty asked; Are we out of compliance with any state mandate? 6 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 David Tomasko responded: with the state mandate, I don't believe you are. Councilman Sorey commented; The issue is and what we all need to be looking at is not the whole county. Look at this estuary and say OK and try to not get the state involved. As we have done in Naples Bay, let's put together a plan that conforms with not getting the state involved. Let's decide what our objectives are and not argue about weather the Pelican Bay system is doing a great job or not doing a great job. Let's look at this estuary and say OK if there were TMDL standards or no state standards, as stewards of this environment what do we want this estuary to be and look at including the parts that's in the city, the parts that are in the county. As far as I'm concerned we are all in the county. The City is in the county just like Pelican Bay and not let's not get hung up with defending the good job you guys are doing. 1 think we need to set up a TMDL locally controlled, locally developed and monitored program for this estuary. We need to do something in the south part of the bay to get up to your standards or whatever. Let's not get bogged down with who's doing what. Let's decide what do we want to do in this estuary and move forward. I think that is our objective. Gary McAlpin commented; I think that is the key. I think that we have data there that is suspect. Let's collect uur own datasets, let's uniform the way we are doing it. Let's standardize it and do it as a total estuary so if the state ever comes to us, we can say, we don't or we do have a problem and this is what we are doing to address the issue. Councilman Sorey commented; let's not wait but go to the state and say here is our plan. We answer all the questions and make a proactive presentation instead of waiting. This is a Federal not a State issue. Let's look at the best way to solve our issues. Being good stewards of this estuary as you guys have been, lets build on what you have aceomplished verses saying, well we've done great you guys have not. Let's be proactive. Gary McAlpin; I agree. Janice Larnen commented; does the renewing of this permit require that this data be uploaded? Ifso why was it not uploaded with the current permit? We need to be looking forward. Gary McAlpin commented; the plan that we are looking for is moving forward. It is a clean dataset of information moving forward that could support a position one way or another. There are a number of issues that need to be put on the table and addressed before the permit goes forward. We could tie this to the permit or to just being good stewards. The timing is now. It is not a requirement, currently of what we know. It could very well make this a regulatory issue for the permit if in fact the data that is there would trigger an investigation. I want to be proactive and get in front of it. Janice Lamen commented; I guess I'm trying to understand the data and it hadn't been required nor even requested prior to. Then we need to look forward going on. What is it today moving forward not on the dataset that might have had some issues. 7 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21 , 2008 Gary McAlpin commented; we are not trying to correct data we are trying to come up with a plan on how to collect the data, how to be uniform with it and start a data sct that would give us the confidence moving forward. Water quality being one point of this, but there is a number of issues that need be addressed. John Petty commented; keep in perspective that we are talking from Pelican Bay perspective when we go to the board meetings. How do we tell them what we are doing here? I think we have determined that it is a policy decision of the County. This is not a regulation or because of anything Pelican Bay did incorreclly. It is a policy ofthe county and we are moving forward to increased awareness of our coastal areas. Gary McAlpin commented; absolutely, and the county's position is that if we do nothing we potentially could have a problem. We want to head off a problem before it comes there. To solve this problem it needs the entire community to get involved. John Petty commented; now you're saying two difl'erent things. Gary McAlpin commented; no I'm not. John Petty commented; let me clarity, the data we have today which shows the low DOs is public information and a lot of that information was taken by a division of Collier County. Gary McAlpin commented; I don't care how the data was taken, the data is out there. John Pctty commented; you're saying there is a potential problem and this is public information. Now either the problem exists and we as good stewards should jump on it. If there is a contamination in Clam Bay the people of Pelican Bay want to be there. If there is a problem with anything in Clam Bay that we are causing or that we can mitigate they want to get involved. If there is a problem with DO, I have no problem with the state understanding that there is a problem in Clam Bay, because Ilnok to them for guidance. I don't have a concern about it going to a state agency. What I do have a problem with is do we have a problem that we are addressing or is it a policy ofthe county that we are addressing. If we are going for a problem then we are going backward here. Gary McAlpin commented; John, I don't know if there is a problem. There mayor may not; because there is the data that is there and is suspect. The data that is there according to Tomasko from a QNQC point of view is suspect. David Tomasko commented; to clarify one thing. The nitrate data is obviously an error. It couldn't be anything else. So there is already an issue right there. It should have been flagged, been removed, should have not shown up- but yet it does. So that is a QA/QC error. The other data probably suggest that you're going to be viewed as impaired should 8 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 anyone look at that. That doesn't mean that you are impaired. However, the data is there. Councilman Sorey commented; I think we need to stop dancing around and see if we can get this 1990 data set corrected. The state has more problems than they need to deal with. This issue here is how can we put together a model that will be proactive to move forward? Jim Burke cummented; 1 am in agreement with this but I have heard some things today. This whole thing started because ofthe sea grass report, correct? Gary McAlpin eommeOled; this wholc issue came up because there was a cnmmcnt that says that the county is being negligent in its monitoring of this permit in a number of ways; from a channel marking point of view; from a sea grass point of view; and from water quality point ofvicw, We said; hey wait a minute you can't go to the state, DEP and the Corps without us getting involved. Therc was a big debate and the sea grass was the leading indicator at that point and time. We had Dr. Tomasko go in there and we found out that the sca grass was not necessarily the issue. As a spinoff of that there may be some other concerns and these were the other concerns being addressed, water quality being one of them. Councilman Sorey commented; the Feds in the clean water ad of 1973 said every state will implement a program and then they never did anything about it. Dave Tomasko commented; what you had is the federal government decides they are going to enforce watcr quality standards. It has been very successful in a number of places. There is a 303D list that shows that you are impaired for water quality standard. That 3030 list is dependcnt on water quality data getting to DEP. My understanding that is if state resources are used, that data is to go into Storrett. It gets downloaded and DEP reviews. It doesn't always happen. Not having data doesn't mean that you are out of the loop. What it means is someone will collect that data. Jim Burke commented; Why now? Have we poked a sleeping bear? Gary McAlpin commented; absolutely. From the County's perspective once someone says therc is a potential issue where the state could come in and mandate some things that could cost us significant amount of money. It could cost the total community. Counci Iman Sorey commented; we need to look at this estuary because eventually at some point in time there is going to be the state looking at this water body. All these water bodies are listed by the A cycle. John Petty commented; unfunded mandates have been ehallenged successfully in the past. Is there a reason we are reacting to an unfunded mandate? 9 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 Gary McAlpin commented; because it is the right thing to do from a water quality point of view. Our direction from a county perspective is to move forward just as it says in Leo's memo. John Petty commented; since according to South Florida this goes all the way up to Immokalee Road I'm part of the circle. Funded and unfunded is a big question for the residents of Pelican Bay. Gary McAlpin commented; what I would like to do is address these other issues that also need to be addressed in addition to a better water quality sampling that is published and we can have a confidence level in the data that meets the Storrctt tormat. With that water quality sampling we would identify with everyone in this rOOm where the locations would be. Identify the technique that is used and also identify the QA/QC program for it. Other Concerns Councilman Sorey commented; I think the other thing we necd to identity is the funding. Are Gary McAlpin commented; this is what I would suggest. There are a number of major activity areas water quality being one. After we agree what the groups are, we set up sub-committees. Funding is going to be addressed at an entirely different level. I suggest we assign a group of people to come back and say, this is what I think we can do. I think if we try to work all of these issues in this group it will not happen. Councilman Sorey commented; from the comments at council meetings, I think the City of Naples Council is committed to doing their part. Gary McAlpin commented; Councilman I see that there are a couple ofticket items here. Water quality sampling is one. Councilman Sorey commented; I think we need to decide the locations, the QA/QC system, the format, etc. The most important thing this group has to determine is; do we really want to put together a plan that will improve the water quality system and as a part of it, a management plan to preclude a TMDL trigger by the state. The sampling and everything else comes underneath that. Gary McAlpin commented; I don't think there is any question from a county perspective that we want to put a program in place that will preclude the state from coming in and telling us what we have to do. We need to get in front of these issues. I think there is a water quality issue with TMDLs and where we want to be. Other major issues are: . What qual ity issues are there with Seagate and Venetian Bay. Are they significant? What are they? What can we do to correct them? Are the two systems connected? The water quality coming from the south and its impact to the north? 10 .__.~--------_._---- Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 2 I, 2008 . Bypassing of sand, the ebb and flood tide shoals that does not necessarily affect the City of Naples as much but should be part of this management plan moving forward. Councilman Sorey commented; One of the things the City of Naples is doing city wide is a tertilize ordinance and a storm water plan. This will help the bays. We are doing something to help Jim Burke commented; that is a heavy affect on Pelican Bay. Gary McAlpin commented; I know it is a very difficult issue but I don't think your permit application that you have right now even addresses this and it has to address it. This is a permit application for the whole thing and has to address it. John Petty commented; It appears that we are negating any other position other than the agenda. I believe that the sandbar out in front of the pass is of concern of Pelican Bay. It is not a part of Pelican Bay Services Divisions area of responsibility other than the permit. But, the residents have told us that they are concerned about it because they have been told that it means benefit to their beach. So, if we ask questions about it, it comes from that regard. I don't know that we should negate conversation just because it isn't supportive of the agenda. We are asking questions. Councilman Sorey commented; we are only trying to list the major agenda items and we will come back and address that. This is just an agenda item not any negative pluses or minuses about it. Gary McAlpin commented; we are just trying to list the items that are of concern, issues that we need to address and discuss. John Petty commented; what I don't understand is Gary, when you state things like you haven't addressed it you've just glossed over it in your application and we must do it now. Those types of statements, I have a hard time communicating back. Gary McAlpin commented; I think there is a discussion point for the sand bypassing that needs to be had. That needs to be on the table and the county needs it to be on the table. I'm not trying to discuss it right now. Tim Hall commented; we also need to add testing of the Gulf outside the pass. A solution needs to look at all the water passing through the system. Gary McAlpin commented; Sure, I don't have any problem with that. Tim Hall commented; the other issue is changing the stations, I think you need to be clear that 7 of the water monitoring stations done right now are not part of the Clam Bay restoration management permit. So we don't have to go back and modify that. II Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 Councilman Sorey commented; I f we error on any side we error on having too many stations. Tim Iiali commented; absolutely, the more data the better. Gary McAlpin commented; the next item we should put on the list is the sea grass monitoring. Since that has been a big issue with one community and I think there is still some sentiment that has sti II not been addressed. Just formalizing how, when, what we're doing and what the procedure is moving torward is an activity that [ would like to see. John Pctty commented; if we are going to add this item as discussion, let me add this. I was never a big fan of sea grass being our rcport card on whether there was a suceess or failure in Clam Bay. Thcre are better ways to takc care of estuaries. I understand the City of Naples is going to be participating in that program and I suggest that we look for their guidance in making this determinatinn. Gary McAlpin commented; that's fine, ifthcre is a better indicator that is out there lets just get that and deal with it. I don't think sea grass is as big of an issue and make sure we document it. Mike Bauer commented; I do. I want to go on record as saying "I do". Gary McAlpin commented; I think the next item is funding. Funding is an issue and how the interaction of this works with the City of Naples, Collier County, Pclican Bay and how all that is going to be put together. Councilman Sorey commented; one item that is very important is navigation which is very important to the City of Naples. This includes the marking and the wholc bit. Gary McAlpin comment<.,-d; I don't have any problems with that. Something I think Pelican Bay has done very will and I would like to see the County piggyback on is education for nutrient runoff control. Let me read the work issues again in no particular order: . Water quality, under that, what is thc right sampling; what is the standard going to be; how are we going to display the information. . What is the connection between Seagate, Venetian Bay and the Gulf., what is the impact of mixing, . sand bypassing, . sea grasses/marine life, . funding, . navigation and . education. I have 7 buliet items. Comments and SUl!:l!:estions 12 .~ Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 2 I, 2008 Dave Tomasko commented; I think it may be appropriate for someone to eome in and figure out what Clam Bay does. I bring that up because people sometimes think their Estuary is crystal blue water. Gary McAlpin commented; Just a minute Dave. Kyle is there any points that you would like to get on the table before you leave? Kyle Luckas commented; just about some of the report you refer to. The sea grass report was not done to see how much sea grass was there, it was to see how much impact the dredging had on it. (Not auditable). Dave Tomasko commented; when you manage Clam Bay, what are you managing it for? Sea grass is an important feature but not the only one. What does Clam Bay do right now as a habitat? So what you may have in Clam Bay is a habitat that is extremely valuable but in different ways than people would expect it to be. When the State of Florida looks at water bodies they look at water qualities. Clam Bay water quality needs to be appropriate to what Clam Bay needs to be. You have to collect that data to know that. If it doesn't have the nursery qualities that it used to have it could be due to physical alterations. [I' you fncus only on water quality you lose perhaps a lot of ability to improve this place. You need to talk about all the things that make a place productive. Mike Bauer commented; I would second that. John Petty commented; when you talk about improving Clam Bay, I have a lot of residents that say don't try to improve it -. maintain it. Gary McAlpin eommented; I understand and I put that under marine life heading. Jim, do you have any comments or suggestions on the approach? Jim Burke commented; this all started as we know, and this is just my opinion as an anti Pelican Bay stewardship of Pelican Bay that brought Dr. Tomasko in. From a positive standpoint it has resulted in some pretty good things happening. [I' you read the paper you will know that Pelican Bay on a day to day basis is a volatile place. I would caution the group that we steer away from any wraps on Pelican Bay stewardship as we do have an opportunity to build on what we have accomplished. Gary McAlpin commented; I think that is the way the county wants to do it. I think it has been said and I want to reiterate it. '[be stewardship has been excellent and we have an opportunity to improve the stewardship by getting other people involved and that is what we want to do. Coleman Connell commented; you mentioned funding in a very broad way. What is this going to cost Pelican Bay? Are we going to have to pay for something that is miles away? Who is responsible for which portion? 13 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 Councilman Sorey commented; I think that is part of the work group that will have to determine what is fair tor all the parties. I think all three of those entities will be in this funding. Gary McAlpin commented; I understand and there is going to have to be a funding equation that is fair and works for everyone. But, for the first time what we have heard is the City of Naples wants to be part of this and participate financially. We are at the very preliminary stages but this is the first time I've heard that there are other people that want to participate financially. Wc will work through that. Mike Baucr commented; I did want to add that there are several of us that have looked at the bottom of outer Clam Bay. It has not looked healthy to me. 1 found the water to be very murky. Looking at the bottom of that Bay I was not impressed. Tom Cravens commented; In 1972 Wcstinghouse acquired the land where Pelican Bay is located. In 1973 congress enacted a number of acts. Pelican Bay realized they were not going to be able to develop a gulf front condominium complcx like what is south. Thcy contacted the Conservancy of SW Florida and had them help develop a plan for Pelican Bay. I think it might be a good idea if the Conservancy carne in and gave us some guidance and advicc. I also think Florida Gulf Coast University has individuals that are involved in the marine environment. Thesc are valuablc resources. John Petty commented; Let mc talk about the groups that are here and the stakeholders that are here at the table City of Naples, Collier County, Pelican Bay and the general public at large. These entities have different responsibilities and concerns. Pelican Bay Service Division has a concern toward the Clam Bay system which resides in Pelican Bay became county property, through Pelican Bay, which is in our boarder and which is currently under a permit that Pelican Bay has stewardship of. Our concern is water management related and mangrove related_ That is what our public has asked us to take care of. As an MSTU, even though we are a division of the county, we must be respectful of what they ask us to do. They may ask us to do more if there is an educational process out there that convinces them that it's important. The City of Naples has an interest in regards to Vcnetian and Moorings and the water quality there does not have any treatment facilities such as Pelican Bay. The questions come up on what can we do in the Clam Day system to help in that rcgard? There is the county. who has some concerns over the states TDML that might be implemented and what enforcement there may be and what they may be asked to do in an unfunded mandatcd at this current time. This is three difterent issues and I look forward to working with you on these issues. Janice Larncn commented; it might be helpful as the conversations evolve to understand the basis of whethcr or not it is a requirement, regulation verses a policy issue. How is this going to touch my pocketbook? I'm gctting confused in my mind relative to what we are talking about as rclative to the current permit or arc we expanding the permit that is there in place'! Is it going to be touching another permit that is going to trigger something else? 14 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 David Roellig commented; I have different concern. We have had permits for years and chasing them down for years. I am disturbed somewhat by the length of time this is taken. A better strategy in my opinion would have been to submit the application a year ago and see what the state has to say. Trying to anticipate what the regulators are going to want is impossible. Marcia Cravens commented; my perspective is that I would hope that in addition to the discussion about the monitoring of our water system that we might also include some of the tools and ways in which to improve the water quality at the same time. I have to applaud Mike Baucr and the City of Naples which have been so committed to actually taking the steps to improving the water quality. I would hope that the entire Collier County area would bring these areas into discussion and hopefully adopt BMP. Doug Finley commented; I am in Clam Bay a lot. I do share some of the same concerns Mike has in outer Clam Bay. Is any of our testing going to be sediment testing? Name not auditable commented; there are all different agendas here and I think if you can try to put it all aside for a minute and think about what can be done to ensure a productive estuary . Martha Dykman commented; our community (Seagate) has seen all the oysters disappear over the years. We are the ones that went to the meeting regarding Clam Bay and we asked why they were not testing on the south end that is how we started out the dialog. We were told; no they were not going to do testing on the south end. So, we came to Pelican Bay Services meeting and said we were really concerned and we were told to shut up get out of there we were not in Pelican Bay and we had no reason to eome to their meeting and tell them something like that. We should be involved in this and we should have a voice in this. Attion Plans for tbe Next Meetin2 Gary McAlpin commented; what I would suggest we do at this time is to identity a couple of issues that I think are more important than others. We need to have discussion about funding so we can sustain this and I think Councilman this is one we need to tackle right away. The 2nd piece that came up at the CAC is that we are in violation of the existing permit as the channel markings. This has been an existing issue with the City of Naples and the Seagate people and the county is in violation. I think that is something relatively easy to get resolved. The existing canoe markers are also in violation because they have not been permitted. They have to come down and so we have to move forward with marking the channel. The first step on that is to identity the locations and go with the permitting required. As I understand it has to be permitted from the Corps, Coast Guard, DEP and Fish and Wildlife. What I think we can do is cnme up very quickly and easi Iy with the locations for the channel markers. We can review them at the next meeting if that is acceptable to everyone from a permitting point of view. 15 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21 , 2008 John Petty commented; is this the Clam Bay permit that Pelican Bay Services is currently invoking or is the permit the county had for the bridge? Gary McAlpin commented; it is not the bridge permit. John Petty commented; then I have to ask is this not a Pelican Bay Service Division issue? Because we certainly have not sat down as a board that we are giving up a responsibility or that the county was going to be taking on the responsibility. I assume CAC or Coastal Zone Manager is saying that you will implement corrective action on a permit that is the stewardship of Pelican Bay Services Division. The issue that I need to talk to my board about is that the permit has already transferred and that it is no longer a Pelican Bay Services Divisions concern and that we would just be on the Clam Bay Committee. Gary McAlpin commented; John, ] think that it is a part of the existing permit thaI is there right now. What I suggest is that we talk together on how we make that happen. When we say permit, let's also recogni7'c that this is a permit issued to Collier County- Pelican Bay Services Division. Collier County has a stake in this and would want to be involve and will work through the details with you. Jim Burke commented; who actually goes out and moves these? Gary McAlpin commented; at this time what we would do is from a permitting point of view there are a number of ways we can get this done. It might be a number of eontra(.-(ors that we have do it. John Petty commented; we have a contractor that handles our permit and we have staff as well. Again we need to tell Pelican Bay that this has changed. I think that after its good stewardship of 10 years we cenainly deserve to put before them that there is going to be a transfer of the stewardship of the permit to Collier County and it becomes a county issue and may involve Pelican Bay and the City of Naples and other stakeholders in the future. Gary McAlpin commented; I'm not advocating that there is a responsibility shift here. What I am advocating is that there is a need to get this done and there needs to be some discussion on how it gets done. John Petty commented; you and I can discuss that and then bring it to the committee. But you can't make statements to the City of Naples that we are going to do that because it has not gone before the committee. That's my position and I have to protect them. Gary McAlpin commented; John, Let me just say this that if the county is in violation of a permit requirement, we are not going to be in violation of a permit requirement. I think if Pelican Bay Services Division does not believe that it is their responsibility then the county will deal with it. J don't wanl to say it in a negative way but the county will not be in violation of its permits. 16 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 John Petty commented; I don't know what gave you the impression that says we do not feel responsibility. We feel a very heavy responsibility for the bay system and I don't want to leave that out on the table that we had ever said we don't feel responsible. The issue here is there is a change in responsibility. Has the county made a change? If the answer is yes, then Gary I am fine. I just think we need to go before the board and let them know. Gary McAlpin commented; Lets decide how this gets accomplished. Let's set down and talk about it. Councilman Sorey commented; Gary I think this memo and the indication that the county wants to be the next permit holder on the next permit clearly indicates there is a shift in responsibility and authority. I think that is pretty well on the table. Gary McAlpin commented; this is what I don't want to do Councilman Sorey. I don't want to get hung up on who is responsible at this point and time. J don't want to create barriers. What I want to do is to identity that there are some needs out there. There are a lot of ways to get these needs accomplished. J don't want to send a message to Pelican Bay Services that's not right. J think we as a County see some issues and there are a lot of ways to do it together to make this thing happen. We are trying to explore ways to make this happen. The County knows there are some obligations and responsibilities that it has and we are trying to move forward with them. What I am saying at this point in time, there is no line drawn in the sand saying that we are going to pick up responsibility for this issue. We're going to work together as a group to resolve some of these things. Councilman Sorey commented; J think that is fine. I think the IlIlo1 thing we need to do is not to coordinate with all the stakeholders. Talk about the bullet points that we have mentioned, maybe get some indication from the various groups as to how they would like to participate and I think we need to set another meeting of this entire group. Hopefully at that time we wi II be able to work out some of the issues John brought out. Maybe at that time we can assign sub-committee responsibilities and those sub-committees reporting back to this committee. Gary McAlpin commented; is that ok with you work group members? Response was yes. Gary McAlpin commented; we will talk together and get other people involved with this. Next Meetiol! Next tentative meeting will be the 28th of March at 9:00am at CZM. Note: the meetiol! date was chanl!:ed to March 20'" at 9 8m at CZM . Comments out the Door 17 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 Jim Burke commented; who determines that the markers are in violation'! Gary McAlpin commented; they were never permitted through the state. Fish and Wildlife is telling us that they are in violation and they need to be pulled out. Tim Hall Commented; they have a permit number on them. Gary McAlpin commented; they were never filed. We have to deal with that right away. We will have to find out about that. Adjourned 10:50 am 18 i..pj?8ary /';.' ~ f'rom: . Sent: To: Cc: Subject: Follow Up Flag: Due By: Flag Statu.: E>dfll3fT If/ ochs I TUesday, January 08, 2008 1 :26 PM pellyj@districtofflC8S.com ramsey_m; McAlpinGary FW: Clam Bay Perm~ FOllow-up Follow up Monday, January 14, 2008 12:00 AM Flagged Good Afternoon John, I wanted ID close the loop with you relative to our recent meeting on Outer Clam Bay and the Clam Pass permit. Jim Mudd and I have discussed this end would like to lake the following approach: . All permits and perrn~ applications will be In Collier County's name. This Is county policy and we need ID follow \he county policy. Pleaae start work on extending the existing perm~ for a period of one year as soon as possible. I undenll8nd that ~ should be fairly easy to obtaIn and will only require a written request from us. 1 would ask that you prepN8 a draft letter from the County Menager to the approprtata permitting euthority ID secure this extension. Additionally, I understand from Gary McAlpin that new pemI~ reqU88ls for the estuary maintenance and management will be issued from Ft. Myers and that pass and beach work will be issued out of Tallahassee. . We will also set up a work group to address the ltams presented in the Tomasko report. I am instructing Gary Mc:AIpln ID work with you and other stakeholders to meke this happen. The purpose of this work group will be to develOp a "go .' forward" plan to insure that the Clam Bay acosystem be maintained or pet11aps even further enhanced In the years ahead. My intention would be for this group ID provide informetion and suggestions to elected and appointed oftIciaIs that will guide their decisions regarding potential governance, funding, resource allocations and other policy considerations. In this regard. I have considered your recommendation to address these issues under the auspices of a newly created water authority, a quasi-govemmenlal taxing authority established In Fiortda statutes. In my assessment, this approach may be premature and I would respectfully suggest that this declsion woukI be consideted along witI1 others by the policy makers after reviewing the information and recommendations offered by the work group. My time frame is to resolve this over the next year. Therefore, I have instructed Gary to proceed in earnest to move this effort forward. Please give me your thoughts on this approach at your ear1iest convenience. John, I wantID again commend you and the antJre PBSO for the oulslandlng stewardship and advocacy provided on behalf of the Pelican Bay community. I look forward to a continued productive and collaborative partnership to our mutuel benefl!. Regards, Lao The see grass study was in large measure very exonarating for Pelican Bay! There are several items that need ID be addressed in their permit application that I will be working over the next two weeks with Jim Burke of Pelican Bay for presentation to the CAC. The CAC has elected ID present their recommendations ID the TOC and BCC on this perm~ application. It will be discussed with you and Lao firllt as I have been working with him. The ~ams that I believe need ID be addressed/resolved in this permit application are: . Continued year1y monrtonng of sea grass in the method recommended by Dr. Tomasko. . Water quality sampling with: . Oiffarent more effactive locations .j .. .I' ~ , / . . A ONQC review and central focus Uniform testing for each sample PubliSh tesl resuns on a websile for entire community viewing . A yearly water quality report for Clam Bay Estuary . Education program on nutrient runoff control . Action plans to address the water quality Issues of Seagate and Venetian Bay (No BMP exist here) . perron to address sand bypassing, flood and ebb tide shoals and affect on down drift beaches . Hard measurement criteria vs. vague statements . What biological habitat uses Clam Bay and how do we make n the best it can be (Graduate research program from FGCU?) . How this permit will be administered, managed and by who . Resolve the channel marking for boat access which is an open issue from the last permit Gary 2