Exhibit BBB BCC Minutes 2-10-98REGULAR MEETING OF FEBRUARY 10, 1998
OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Board of County Commissioners in
and for the County of Collier, and also acting as the Board of Zoning
Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such special districts as
have been created according to law and having conducted business
herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building
"F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the
following members present:
ALSO PRESENT:
CHAIRPERSON: Barbara B. Berry
Pamela S. Mac'Kie
John C. Norris
Timothy J. Constantine
Timothy L. Hancock
Robert Fernandez, County Administrator
David Weigel, County Attorney
Item #12Bl
ORDINANCE 98-10 RE PETITION PUD-97-12, WILLIAM L. HOOVER OF HOOVER
PLANNING SHOPPE REPRESENTING FRANK CLESEN AND SONS, INC., REQUESTING A
REZONE FROM "E" ESTATES TO "PUD" PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT FOR PROPERTY
LOCATED IN THE NORTHWEST QUADRANT OF THE PINE RIDGE ROAD (CR 896) AND
I-75 INTERCHANGE ACTIVITY CENTER LOCATED ON TRACT 92, GOLDEN GATE
ESTATES, UNIT 35 -ADOPTED
We are now to the public hearing section of our agenda. And
the first one is petition PUD 97-12, regarding a rezone from Estates
to PUD.
All individuals who are planning to speak to this issue, please
rise and I will have the court reporter swear you in.
(Witnesses were sworn.)
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Thank you. Mr. Milk.
MR. MILK: Good morning.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Good morning.
MR. MILK: For record, my name is Bryan Milk. I am presenting
petition PUD 97-12. Mr. Hoover is representing Frank Clesen in a
request to rezone properties from Estates to PUD. The subject
property is 4.33 acres in size and is located at the northwest
quadrant of the I-75/Pine Ridge Road interchange activity center.
Mr. Hoover has presented a project which has three land use
parcels, A, B and C. Parcel A is contiguous to the Livingston Road
right-of-way. It is approximately .55 acres in size and will be used
for open space and water management.
Area B is located internal to the project. It is approximately
1.88 acres in size and will be utilized for hotels, motels,
professional offices, business offices, medical offices, sit-down
restaurants and miscellaneous retail businesses.
Area C is located contiguous to Pine Ridge Road. It is 1.67
acres in size and will be utilized for fast-food restaurants, auto
supply stores and all of the permitted uses in area B.
The project allows for a maximum building height of thirty-five
feet. It provides for a setback from Livingston Woods Lane of
eighty-two and a half feet. It is set up very similar to the Naples
Gateway PUD and the Angileri PUD recently approved, with the exception
that this PUD does not provide for gasoline service stations and/or
convenience stores. It is all architecturally integrated and unified
from signage, landscaping and parcels B and C have to be consistent in
architectural design guidelines with signage, also.
The project is serviced by bisecting and perimeter ingress
ingress/egress easements which actually move westwardly towards
through Tract 77 and eventually south to the Pine Ridge Road corridor,
which intersects with the median opening at the Sutherland PUD. These
bisecting and perimeter easements were for the purposes of ingress and
egress to these Golden Gate Estates tracts.
There is legislature (sic) on the records to delete a majority of
these bisecting easements by December 31st of 1999. Those who want to
secure those easements have to go to the clerk of court's office and
secure the necessary means of ingress and egress to their properties.
From a transportation standpoint, we have looked at this project
and looked at the access through Tract 77, which is the abutting four
and a half acres. This meets the county's access management plan for
interchanges, and, therefore, we recommend this access to this
property.
What's also important about the property is the bisecting
easement runs east and west, which will eventually link the property
to the east, the property to the west, Angileri, Naples Gateway, so
there will be a frontage road aspect, east-west corridor, if I may,
throughout that entirety of the project.
If I can answer any questions, I would like to do so at this
time.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Okay.
with the petitioner on this or
my decision on all information
whatever I have read.
I might add that I have had no contact
any other information, but I am basing
that I have in this hearing today or
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Madam Chairman, I will base my
decision as required by state law.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I also have no communication to disclose.
I will base my decision on the information presented.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: No disclosure.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I will base my decision on what I hear in
this hearing today.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Very good.
Mr. Hancock.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Milk, maybe it's just an omission from
my packet, but I noticed last night, I don't have the PUD document.
MR. MILK: You should have.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. I need a PUD document.
MR. MILK: What if I have one right here?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Actually, I don't think it's in anybody's.
Well, it's not in mine either. I was having that same trouble, trying
to get a mental image of what exactly we're --the end result will be
here.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Yeah. I was unable as I went through it
last night to really do any review on this.
MR. MILK: I will tell you from a planning standpoint that it's
exactly the same as Naples Gateway. It's a step up from Angileri,
because when we did Angileri, we were very specific in office related
uses and limited commercial uses. What we did in Gateway was we
opened the door for medical related offices, professional offices and
business offices and some service convenience retail outlets, but we
did not --we eliminated the convenience commercial aspect, the car
wash aspect, and the gasoline service station aspect of that.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just while this is going on, Mr. Cautero,
could maybe somebody make copies? I'd like to look at the PUD, too.
I could probably do that while we're talking, but --thanks.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Any other questions?
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: You're going to have to give me time to go
through this. If the petitioner has a presentation, maybe we can do
that.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Okay. We can do that.
Mr. Hoover.
MR. HOOVER: For the record, Bill Hoover of Hoover Planning
representing the petitioner. The property is four point three three
acres in size and is located within the Pine Ridge Road, I-75
interstate activity center. The handout you're receiving includes key
portions of a marketing study from Quinby Appraisal and Research,
whose analyses indicate that there's a need for the commercial land
uses proposed.
We're proposing highway commercial and convenience commercial
land uses, except the gas stations and convenience stores with gas
pumps are not being requested. If you look at the aerial photo in the
packet, you can see that the nearest home is about eight hundred fifty
feet to the northwest from the nearest boundary of our property. We
have employed basically the same strategies planning wise that are in
the Gateway PUD and Angileri PUD inasmuch as we have proposed three
land use tracts within the PUD. The one with the most intensive land
uses would be right along Pine Ridge Road. And the land uses would
drop as we went to the most northern parcel, which would only be a
green area and water management area. That would be seventy-two and a
half feet in depth.
I think most importantly we have carried on an architectural
theme similar to the Gateway and the Angileri PUD, and is all since
there is no land developed on the north side of Pine Ridge Road in the
commercial activity center, we can carry on the same theme all the
way on that whole side, all the length of the interstate activity.
And this would include a masonry wall along Livingston Woods Lane that
would match --every place, the walls would match in colors and
architecturally. It would have --along this wall would have double
the required landscaping of the land development code. Additionally,
we would be planting red maple trees in the stormwater management
area, which would be the most northern tract, to provide an additional
buffer as time went on.
All buildings are going to be finished in peaked roofs. They
will have a tile or metal roof. And all the buildings will be
finished in light, subdued colors except for decorative trim. I think
maybe a good example of having this in there is maybe going beyond
what we have in architectural controls. If anybody has drove Taylor
Road, there was a real nice building put up about three years ago,
however, recently I think the guy painted it purple and orange. So --
and I mean bright. The --
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: We'll be taking care of that in the next
round of architectural standards.
MR. HOOVER: Okay. But I think it's good to have something with
light, subdued colors in a PUD that's coming in so that we can have a
little bit more protection, especially when it's the first impression
coming into Naples. But I think everything in our PUD, planning wise,
I can go on the record as a professional planner saying this, it's
going to be an asset for somebody coming off of 75 coming into town
that we're carrying on the same theme. We have got a nice looking
project with the standards we have in here. The only thing that can
be built is something of what you expect to be built in North Naples.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Can we --that's exactly the issue,
because I --the first question that I had had to do with Area C and
then, of course, A. It sounds like you have done a good job about the
buffering from the residential neighborhood. But I am --I'm
concerned about the same things we talked about before, about, you
know, gasoline alley and, you know, what impression we're making for
people. Because this is the entrance, you know, to Collier County
coming off the interstate. So I hear you that what we're proposing
architecturally is going to be pretty, but I have trouble always with
those standard industrial codes, trying to know --everything that's
in Bis also permitted in C --I'll give mine to the court reporter,
because since, I have gotten one --but like auto supply store, eating
places, you know, the group fifty-five, thirty-one, fifty-eight,
twelve, paint and wallpaper stores, hotels and motels.
MR. MILK: The biggest difference between B and C is Area C,
which is contiguous to Pine Ridge Road, it would allow a fast-food
restaurant.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Like, can they have a McDonald's with
arches in Area C?
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: If those arches comply with the
architectural standards, but, yes.
MR. MILK: For the sign itself --
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Well, it would have to be sign height and
whatnot.
MR. MILK: I will tell you this, there's no pole signs allowed in
this corridor, so you won't have that.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: What about the idea of, you know,
continuity of development, having, you know, some inter-connectedness
in architectural themes and some of that stuff?
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: The problem is we don't have an anchor out
there. We don't have the one that is actually physically built yet
that we say that's a good theme, let's perpetuate that. And what's
going to happen is these are going to come on line and they're trying
to use similar standards, but, you know, they're going to vary. If we
had one building there --and I have thought the same thing. If we
had a building there that we said this is a good theme as a Gateway
theme, let's perpetuate it, we could hold other developers of adjacent
developments to it. We don't have that one yet.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But you know this little section is either
going to be something that we're really proud of that got approved
while we were on the board or really embarrassed that we let it slip
through. I mean, I think this is, you know, one of those highly
visible areas of town --
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I think it's going to be a lot better than
it would have been if we hadn't taken the action we have in the last
two or three years.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: No question. No question.
MR. MILK: What I will say, though, for the record, is, for
example, the pole signs. There are no pole signs allowed. There are
only ground signs allowed. There is a wall that's going to be
constructed along the entire property perimeter of the boundary
contiguous to Livingston Woods Lane. It's going to be in a
twenty-foot buffer with an eight-foot architecturally designed masonry
wall.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Talk about what's going to be on Pine
Ridge.
MR. MILK: Pine Ridge Road is basically going to be --and
because of the transition now --we set this up as a transition from
the neighborhood of Livingston to the north to the more intensified
uses or convenience type uses, fast-food restaurants, perhaps a
gasoline service station, your banks and your restaurants.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: What happened to the discussion two
PUDs ago that we asked staff to go back and research what we could do
because we have already approved seven, or something, gas stations in
this --and we never heard a word back. And I don't think by the time
we got done with that discussion, I don't think it was just limited to
gas stations. I think we talked about a number of different issues
like fast food, but --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Convenience kinds of uses.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: --what happened to that discussion?
MR. MILK: I think the discussion was that of is there enough
gasoline service stations in this corridor.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I think we probably felt like there
probably was, and we wanted to know if we could use that as a criteria
for voting yes or no on a petition. That's what I wanted to know.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Well, and he said this one isn't going to
allow for that.
MR. MILK: It's not going to allow for any gas
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But that was just one example, the gas
stations. There's also, you know, a long string of Seven-Elevens or
McDonalds.
MR. MILK: To answer the question, I think we have looked at that
through long-range planning and the EAR process. I'm not so sure if
that was being --if that's a conclusive response. If we actually
looked at the gasoline service stations, for example, in the corridor
in that intersection, I mean, I just can't answer that.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I remember, because it was --it was --I
think it was initially my suggestion that through the growth
management plan amendment process, we look at limiting the number of
gas stations in either activity center or that was the train of --or
at least the line of discussion and --
MR. MILK: On a broader scale.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: On a broader scale, but to say that this
is an area that we want to look at. If I am not mistaken, the very
next cycle for growth management plan amendments came too quickly with
too many amendments in it initially for us to have the staff time, and
we were going to try to hit that down the road. That's my
recollection.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: So should we expect to see that in
March? Or is that one more thing that's just going to get lost
somewhere in the general direction that the board gives?
MR. ARNOLD: For the record, Wayne Arnold, planning services
director. We did have this discussion sometime last year, and at that
time we were in the middle of the EAR based amendments to our
comprehensive plan, and we brought back to you some information on
location, number of gas stations, convenience commercial uses, et
cetera, and at that time, and what we're intending to do, is come back
and rather than prohibit certain land uses, because we think that may
be problematic legally to just prohibit certain land uses, but to go
ahead and make sure that we look at market conditions as part of our
rezoning. We also set up Gateway standards for these activity
centers, which that language does appear in your --your base
amendments to the plan where we treat these as gateways to our
community and we will --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, talk about that. If we had Gateway
standards in place today, what kinds of things would we be
considering? Because, you know, this is --you know, as we got real
concerned about Angileri, and now we're moving --we've got three
tracts of land left between Angileri and the intersection of Pine
Ridge and I-75. This is the center one, you know. There are two
estate zoned parcels on either side of this parcel. If we don't have
Gateway standards, you know, we're going to lose our shot at Gateway
here.
What kinds of things are Gateway standards, and do you know if
anything like that's included in this PUD?
MR. ARNOLD: Well, I think certain elements of that certainly are
in this PUD, because they talk about complimentary architectural
standards. They talk about some unifying themes throughout not only
this parcel but some adjacent ones as well that are going to develop
with sort of similar uses.
But again, given the corridor and the location with I-75 and our
plan supporting that these are for sort of commercial, your motoring
public type uses, I think we have set out the standard to become more
than just a neighborhood activity center, for instance. But I think
what we would be looking for are unifying themes, and in the best
world, we would take a vacant activity center and have you build a
plan and look at unifying themes. And what we really want is a
landscape feature. Do we need a public feature? Do we need a water
management feature to highlight that?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And the answer to all three of those
questions is yes, yes, yes. We need all three of those things.
don't know how we get it in a piecemeal fashion.
I
MR. ARNOLD: Well, that's the difficult part. We see these
things piece --piecemeal and we try to do the best in looking at
these individually to pull them all together. But until we take a
look at each quadrant of an activity center and try to come up with a
master plan --and we found that to be very difficult given the
diverse ownerships that we have. And some are local people, others
are not. Others don't have a near-term desire to develop their
property.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Commissioner Mac'Kie, we are doing exactly
what you're talking about. But on those activity centers that as of
yet the property is predominantly unzoned or not zoned or parcels ag.
--in a parcel such as this where we already have little segments that
are zoned, I think it's up to us to look at each one individually and
determine whether the uses permitted by that zoning are appropriate,
are overkill or not what we want, but we are going to be forced to do
this particular interchange activity center piecemeal because we're
kind of late in the game.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE:
though, is require as much
sort of a landscape theme.
Right. And the thing that we can do,
interconnection of architecture and some
So could you tell us what's in this PUD as far as the
interconnection with the adjacent parcels, because Wayne mentioned
something about that.
MR. MILK: There's a couple of things that are going to be
unified along this entire corridor and that's maximum building heights
of thirty-five feet, ground signs, pole signs are prohibited. What's
important is the limited access to Pine Ridge Road which complies with
the access management plan. What's very important is that frontage
road, that east/west corridor from Gateway all the way through to the
eastern-most property, currently is zoned Estates. That is that
bisecting easement that we have seen.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: There is a frontage road easement along
all of those parcels.
MR. MILK: Yes, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Great.
MR. MILK: From Naples Gateway through Angileri and through
Clesen. What's very important about that is each of these cross
sections are identical in each of the PUDs proposed so far. There are
twenty-four feet of pavements, they are valley-guttered, they are
landscaped on both the north and south sides. There is a twenty-foot
buffer along the entirety of Pine Ridge Road in each of the three PUDs
that we have looked at thus far. Double hedge rows, trees, lamp
posts, street lights, lighting at the interchanges there for ingress
and egress, turn lanes, and design guidelines that geometricaly are
uniform throughout the entire project. So as we look at these, we're
looking at maximum heights of thirty-five feet. We're looking at very
limited commercial uses, businesses uses, medical office uses. We're
looking at the transition from Livingston neighborhood to the Pine
Ridge Road corridor. The internal access intersects and the
architectural design for each of the projects with very specific
roofing types, pitch types and color schemes throughout each of the
projects, and that's been coordinated commonly throughout all three of
these projects.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's great.
MR. MILK: So, you know, to answer your question I think from a
staff standpoint and the applicants' standpoint, they have been
willing to do that uniformly with all of these projects. And we
intend to carry that forward throughout the remainder.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Madam Chair?
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Yes, Commissioner Hancock.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Question for the petitioner. Do you have
Mr. Hoover, are you aware of any end users that you are working
with right now or is this rezone fairly speculative in the sense that
you don't really have anyone on contract for the property or under
contract?
MR. HOOVER: Awhile back Mr. Clesen's reps. --they were talking
with Shoney's about buying the entire site, and I don't believe that
came about. What
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: There's no contract purchasers for the
site right now?
MR. HOOVER: No. They do have another person that's looking at
it for a motel that would like to take the back half of the site and
go either to the east or the west, which would make it a little bit
larger site. From what I understand, the motel people like to have
about a hundred rooms, and they would have to take either the whole
parcel or the back of two --of one of these to make it work.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: The reason I ask that is there are two
things under uses that concern me. The first is a verbiage --what I
think is a verbiage change from what we have used in the past. Under
item eighteen on page seven of the PUD, it says any other commercial
use or professional service which is compatible in nature with the
foregoing uses.
Mr. Milk, correct me if I am wrong. I have got an extra copy of
the PUD if you don't --I didn't have any and now I have two. It's
feast or famine today. It's says any professional service which is
compatible in nature with the foregoing uses. What I remember PUDs
reading is comparable in nature, not compatible.
MR. MILK: There's three words. There's comparable, comparable
and compatible, okay? And I will throw this to the attorney's office.
When we looked at these PUD documents, the attorney's office tweaked
those words consistently. Some are comparable, some are compatible,
some are comparable. So this change was the result of the attorney's
office in that review of the language.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. I need to know, because the word
compatible --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I need to ask a question.
difference between comparable and comparable other than
pronounciation?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Nothing.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Same word.
What's the
MR. MILK: I will say that historically the word comparable,
incidental and accessory to are the words we typically use in the
document.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. The reason compatible concerns me
is that there are uses that may be compatible with a paint and
wallpaper store that are not desirous.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I think that's a very good point. I don't
know, Marjorie, what the case law says.
MS. STUDENT: Quite frankly, I don't remember doing this, but I
don't have any problem with comparable. It's fine.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Let's --let's switch it to
comparable --
MS. STUDENT: That's fine.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK:
wallpaper stores.
--because then I can leave paint and
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It's also in C-4, just while you're making
that change.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: And the same thing goes for, you know,
auto supply stores in Area C. I don't necessarily want an auto supply
store here, but, you know, again, with the commercial architectural
standards, I don't think it would be that big of a problem, but the
word compatible in item four under C opens up a whole new area that I
don't want to go to.
MS. STUDENT: Madam Chairman and the board, the --again, I don't
remember putting that word compatible in there, because in my opinion,
it should be comparable. That's what we see in our zoning code and
you're right, it does have a different meaning. So for the record, in
my opinion, it should be comparable.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Unless the petitioner has a problem with
that, I think the word compatible and under item eighteen under B on
page seven and item four under C on page seven should be changed to
comparable.
MR. HOOVER: I agree with you, Commissioner. As a planner, I
think you're a hundred percent correct on that. We absolutely have no
problem with that at all.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: The next question I have under SIC codes
is regarding drinking places under accessory uses. It says group
fifty-eight thirteen only in conjunction with eating places. I am
fairly sure I know what that means, but, Bryan, can you help me out
with that? Are we talking about, in essence, a lounge in accessory to
a restaurant only? In other words --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is there some percentage of sales tied to
food?
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK:
inside or a Bennigan's with
know that that's --
Right. Like having a Friday's with a bar
a bar inside? But, you know, I need to
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Shoney's with a bar inside?
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Denny's with a beer tap?
MR. MILK: It's usually a place where fifty-one percent of the
sales and revenue generated are from food and not beverage.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I didn't want to, you know --there are
places like, you know, Ridgeport Pub and they do fifty-one percent
food, but that place is a bar on the weekends, I mean. And I don't
want
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: A nice bar that we like.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I have been there, seen that, done that.
But I'm just saying it's a bar, and I don't think we want to do that
this close to a neighborhood.
MR. MILK: I agree. When they come in for their occupational
licenses and zoning certificates, they give us affidavits that they
are, from the state, a restaurant, slash, and they serve alcohol.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Those are the questions I had.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: But that's fine. That meets the legal
hurdle, but it still doesn't address Commissioner Hancock's --I am
sure the folks at Ridgeport could get affidavits that say they meet
the legal criteria for restaurant, slash, and they --and I --I don't
think you have answered his question there.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: They're in the right place for what
they're doing --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE:
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK:
Right.
--but if you take what Ridgeport or what
what is it, Captain's Table down the road or, I mean, those kinds
that are in shopping centers and put them as a stand-alone use backing
up to a residential area, now I have got a problem with compatibility.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Milk's response sounds to me like
we can't prohibit that the way it's in here. They can bring in an
affidavit, but all that's doing is saying they're fifty-one percent
food.
MR. MILK: As far as the zoning department looks at it, that
could happen, Commissioner, you're absolutely right.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Do you have any suggestion as to how we
could limit that, Mr. Hoover?
MR. HOOVER: Yes. I think I disagree with that, because when you
apply for an occupational license, you come down to the county staff
and they're going to look it up in their SIC codes. So if we're --
what we want here is what you're talking about, the Bennigan's and the
restaurants that have alcoholic beverages with it. But we don't want
a lounge, and that's definitely not our intention here. If we need to
put some additional language in here, we don't have a problem. If we
were coming in here and it was a lounge or a bar, that would --when
it was looked up in the SIC code, your primary use would be lounge.
If somebody came in and said hey, it's a restaurant and it's actually
a beer joint, that's when it would go to code enforcement, just like
any other use.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: And, again, I am not in any way
disparaging Ridgeport, but they do a heavy lunch business and do a
lot of their food sales in lunch. But when it comes past eight
o'clock, nine o'clock at night, it operates very similar to a
stand-alone bar. They still serve food, but, I mean, you're talking
the majority of the sales at that point are alcohol related. And it's
that relationship. If we can limit it to a Friday's type situation,
fine. But I need to have a way --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Tell us how to draft that.
MR. MILK: Well, we can just strike it, strike the language.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, but I don't want them to be able to
serve beer with their chili, you know.
MR. MILK: Oh, I can understand that. But there's four --four
or five different licenses out there issued by the state. There's
beer, there's wine, there's alcohol, and it's all based on the size of
the restaurant, number of seats and that sort of thing. So if a real
restaurant like a Bennigan's or Friday's comes in and they have a
hundred and fifty seats which requires seventy-five parking places,
they're going to have their alcohol license anyway. They're going to
be in the food business but have their accessory bar and that sort of
thing. So that's really accomplished with the number of the seats per
the state, okay? So --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: In other words, if Ridgeport wants to
go in there, the way it's written right now, there's nothing to
prohibit that.
Mr. Hoover, would you object to upping instead of it has to be a
majority, fifty percent, fifty point one percent food, to upping that
to sixty-five percent or seventy percent or something that still makes
a fair balance there so it's clear?
MR. HOOVER: I was thinking something a little bit along your
lines there, too, where --yeah, we can --we can increase that ratio.
The fifty-one percent is like off those four COP state licenses and
things.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Right.
MR. HOOVER: And those are pretty lenient, and when I worked in
Hillsborough County, I did see a few places that the county was
fighting back and forth a little bit and, yeah, we don't have a
problem if you want to make that seventy percent of the sales would
have to be food. And we can also say, like on the eating places, that
throughout the time that the place is open, that it would need to be
operating as a restaurant, if there's a way of stating that.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: The problem here we're going to find is
enforceability, because we are seeking a category that's not
identified specifically by state licensing nor by any other code that
we have.
Is that where you're going, Mr. Mulhere?
MR. MULHERE: That was the point I was going to make. I'm sorry,
my name is Bob Mulhere, current planning manager.
The intent is that the alcohol sales be accessory to food sales.
I'm stating the obvious. We have already discussed that. To up that
percentage, about the only way that I --that I think that we might be
able to have a --some legitimate feeling that the eventual business
owner is complying with that would be also to require some sort of
reporting on an annual basis, and that is what the state does.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: So what they would give to the state, they
would just have to give us? In other words, we're not creating an
additional requirement?
MR. MULHERE: Correct.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Yeah. That's fine.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: It seems to me if the petitioner
doesn't object and if they already have to do a report like that
anyway and all it is is a matter of making a photocopy, that's a
no-brainer.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Of course, the difference will be that
instead of reporting fifty point one, they have to report seventy
percent.
MR. MILK: And what we could do for this is tie it to the annual
monitoring report for the PUD, for Clesen PUD, so that report
in conjunction with the applicant's annual monitoring report.
could look at that sales revenue.
comes in
So we
There's one other thing I wanted to put on the record. And just
--I'm not sure that that was pointed out, is that building height in
this PUD is a maximum of thirty-five feet, which includes offices,
hotel, motels, and any other building that's permitted. That language
is also very similar in the Naples Gateway PUD at thirty-five feet.
Where it's not is in the Angileri PUD. At that hearing, hotels and
motels were limited to two stories, and I wasn't sure why that
happened, but that was a gasoline and convenience store related PUD.
So from a consistency standpoint, thirty-five feet is the maximum
height in any of the PUDs. Gateway is at thirty-five at ninety foot
setback for the thirty-five foot building. This PUD, the setback is
eighty-two and a half feet from the right-of-way at thirty-five feet,
is the differences here.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: That's consistent enough for me. The only
restaurant experience I have is waiting tables at Bennigan's in
college. I'm not sure if seventy percent --I don't know what the
food/alcohol mix is --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: That's his number.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: in a regular restaurant, so I guess
we'll stick with seventy percent for now. We may find that that moves
one way or the other. Probably the best thing we can do is ask our
staff to check with the restaurant association in town and to find out
what a true restaurant with an ancillary bar, what their mix actually
is, so that we are operating from an informed --a more informed basis
in the future. That would be helpful, because I would like two
categories for restaurants, slash, bar. One is the ones like
Ridgeport or like McCabe's down on Fifth. You know, it's not just in
shopping centers, but places that at nighttime operate as a bar.
There are correct places for those and incorrect places.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: What, are you making the rounds every
weekend?
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Every stinking weekend.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: You seem to be very knowledgeable about this.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Actually, I don't have all the beer on tap
memorized, but I am working on it.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just supporting that downtown
redevelopment, and we appreciate it. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I am a pro-city guy, you know,
particularly when it comes to Friday night.
So anyway, I would like to ask our staff for future use if the
board agrees. I would like to kind of see two categories in the PUDs,
one for, you know, a family --you know, a Bennigan's type of
restaurant, if you will, and one for a Ridgeport type of restaurant,
you know, and a separation between the two so we can identify them in
the future, because they are very different uses.
MR. MILK: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Any further questions?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just to be --I like that idea so much
that I hope that I hear --I see Vince nodding --that that's
something we'll see in the LDC amendments or, you know, that that's a
real request, that a majority of the board is, you know, supporting
that request, because I'd really like to see that.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: There's two of us. I see heads nodding.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So in the next cycle of amendments, that
would be a good place. Thanks.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Commissioner Norris, any comment, questions?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I think all my questions have been answered
in the ensuing discussion.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Very insightful debate.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Commissioner Constantine?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No, no, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: All right. If not, I will close the public
hearing.
Do I have a motion?
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Madam Chair, I would like to move approval
of PUD 97-12 with the following changes. On page seven of the PUD,
item eighteen, the word compatible be changed to comparable. On the
same page seven of the PUD under item four, the word compatible be
changed to comparable. On page eight of the PUD, under Item D-2,
drinking places, from fifty-eight thirteen, only in conjunction with
eating places, the additional requirement of a food, a minimum
food-to-alcohol sales ratio be seventy to thirty percent. And I
believe --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: You said alcohol to food and then you
said seventy to thirty.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Food to alcohol. Seventy percent food for
a minimum. Go the other way with it.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Potato chips.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: And those are all the things that --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: All right. We have a motion and a second.
Any questions or discussion?
All in favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Motion carries five, zero.
Thank you very much.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Sorry, you can't have any more
pretzels unless you buy another beer.
MR. HOOVER: I have a question. You're referring to dollar
amount on your sales?
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Yes. I said --I believe I said dollar
sales.
MR. HOOVER: Okay.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK:
trouble.
If we did it by volume, we might be in
Item #12Cl
ORDINANCE 98-11 AMENDING ORDINANCE 97-79 TO CORRECT A SCRIVENER'S ERROR
TO THE PELICAN MARSH PUD DOCUMENT RESULTING FROM A TRANSMITTAL TO THE
SECRETARY OF STATE OF A DOCUMENT IN WHICH CERTAIN PAGES WERE
INADVERTENTLY OMITTED -ADOPTED
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: All right. Moving on then to Item
12-C-1. This is a scrivener's error.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: If you will close the public hearing, I
will be glad to --
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: I will close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Motion to approve.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Second.
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: We have a motion and a second to approve the
correcting of a scrivener's error.
All in favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRPERSON BERRY: Motion carries five, zero.
Item #13Al
RESOLUTION 98-37 RE PETITION V-97-14, JOHN HOBART REPRESENTING FIRST
NATIONAL BANK OF NAPLES REQUESTING A 40 FOOT DIMENSIONAL VARIANCE FROM