CCPC Minutes 05/24/2002 RMay 24, 2002
Collier County Planning Commission
Collier County Government Center
Administration Building F, BCC Chambers
3301 Tamiami Trail E. 3rd floor
Naples, FL 34112
MINUTES
May 24, 2002
Chairman Kenneth Abernathy called the meeting at 8:30 a.m.
I. ATTENDANCE
Members: Frank Fry, Paul Midney, Lindy Adelstein, Kenneth Abemathy, Lora
Jean Young, Dwight Richardson, David J. Wolfley, Mark Strain
ABSENT: Russell Budd
Others: Bob Molher, Ron Hamel - Chairman Rural Assessment, Alan Reynolds,
Nicole Ryan - Conservancy of SW Florida, Fred Thomas - public speaker from
Immokalee, Ann Olesky, Brad Cornell - Collier County Audubon, Nancy Payton
- Florida Wildlife Federation, Tom Jones - Barron Collier Partnership, Bill
Lorenze
Chairman Kenneth Abernathy announced that the next meeting held on Thursday
June 6th, two members would be absent. Also stated there were no minutes from
last meeting to review.
Bob Molher spoke about the process that started three years ago which the county
has been working on. He spoke of the rural fringe process and eastern land
process. This process was overseen over 32 times by the committee. He stated
that a lot of time was put in to developing these amendments. He stated there are
over 195,00 acres of privately owned land. He went through the 3 primary goals
as agricultural operations, maintaining natural resources, and conversion of rural
lands.
Ron Hamel, Chairman of Rural Assessment, spoke of some difficult decisions
that would have to be made. Also looked at some alternatives. Mention that there
was an 11-0 vote to approve the falice plan for landowner property rights. Ron
presented a video from 1999, which reviewed objectives, visions, and solutions.
Alan Reynolds displayed a presentation that showed areas that the committee is
dealing with in perspective. Went through goals, objectives, and policies. Spoke
about how planning for this particular land use has been in effect for 3 years.
Land started at 195 acres plus, made up of the Northeast Collier County region
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and Immokalee. Stated that 300 square miles is composed of the largest privately
owned property, one-third within Big Cypress. This area consists of two
waterways, largely agricultural and natural habitat. In general, spoke of the size
of rural land and the areas within. Spoke about the Citizens Committee and their
15 presentations that were shown around Florida. Talked about 4 steps of the
committee: data collection/review, alternatives, testing alternatives, and
goals/objectives/policies. He stated that the goals/objectives/policies is the
process that the committees dominant activity. Briefly went over the history of
the rural land presented. Went over some statistics in regards to the conversion of
rural land. He went over GIS, Goegraphic Information System Database, and its
properties. He mentioned that there are no new subdivisions being developed in
the study area. Alan went over the three stewardship-sending areas that are
protected throughout the program which are the flow ways, habitats, and water
retention areas. He also pointes out some facts about the protection for the natural
resources. At this point he went over the Stewardship Credit Worksheet.
Chairman Kenneth Abernathy stated that this was the most important matrix to
the whole idea. There were some questions in regards to theses issues asked by
Dwight Richardson and Mark Strain.
Brad Comell from Collier County Audubon said the rural lands process is
innovative, it holds promise. Spoke briefly on the economic value of resources
and how to protect them. He went over incentives and regulations, adjustments in
policies, and restoration, which is a critical element.
Nancy Payton, from Florida Wildlife Federation went over protection policies,
specifically Panthers. She stated that the upland habitat must be larger since the
area is the panther and black bear habitat. She also went over the changes that
have been made to the stewardship boundaries. She said it decreases reproduction
potential. She stated that she does not agree with NRPA, that the proposed
regulations are weak.
Tom Jones from Barron Collier Partnership, part of Eastern Collier Property
Owners, spoke about a big issue concerning the percentages of rural land in the
stewardship areas and the wetlands in this area. He spoke of the viability of
agriculture and where the important natural resources are. He stated that these
huge areas are protected, which create an opportunity for the landowners not to
lose their land. Tom also briefly touched on the credit system, stating this system
portrays why a piece of land is environmentally significant.
Mark Strain Asked Alan Reynolds several questions, particularly in regards to the
property owners being a part of the committee.
Alan responded to his concerns regarding the participation and representation of
the landowners. He stated that the six landowners in this area are not members of
the committee, but are represented at the meetings.
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Mark asked Bob Mohler about density blending in regards to RT zoning. Mark
was concerned about the statements documented about proper acreage. He said
that an estimated 5,000 natural areas have been converted to agricultural areas
from 1998 to 2000. He went over the structure of the GOP, including groups and
policies
Nicole Ryan from the Conservancy of SW Florida spoke of her support for the
program. She spoke of the modifications need to make to the process. She spoke
of the benefits to agriculture and private property. She also went over EAC
recommendations.
Fred Thomas, one of the public speakers spoke of his opinions on this matter.
Ann Olesky spoke of some scientific data and positive words and moving forward
with the plans. Her main points that she brought up were protection, specifically
the farmers, stewardship, in regard to landowners, and eminent domain.
Kenneth Abernathy stated that at this point they will go over the goals, objectives,
and policies. He stated he wanted to go over ones with relevance, particularly the
ones with objections that the members of the Conservancy and other groups
brought up.
Alan Reynolds summarized the structure of GOP and it's five groups of policies.
He stated the first group was Organization and Structure, the second group
Agricultural Sustainability, group three Natural Resources Protection, Group four
Receiving area policies, and the fifth group as Regulatory Policies.
The discussion started with policy 1.4, with a concern from Mark Strain.
Kenneth Abernathy had a concern with interim NERPAS introduced a few years
ago stating he was concerned with why something did not follow these interim
NERPAS.
Alan began a discussion on Policy 1.21 regarding the incentive for early
participation.
Kenneth Abernathy stated the six landowners know what's going on.
Lora Jean Young stated her concern with the bonus credit system at this time.
Alan Reynolds brought up Policy 1.21.
Mark Strain brought up questions regarding Group 2 policies dealing with
agriculture. Mark wanted to know why this was based on just the Agriculture
Advisory Council. He wanted to know why it is limited to this council.
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Alan Reynolds responded by stating that this concern was discussed at great
length at the meetings. He said that the committee is limited to the advisory
council because they are agriculture experts looking at these issues.
Mark Strain brought up a concern with Policy 2.4. He wanted to make a
recommendation to the BCC.
Alan stated that the change from will to may would not be a problem.
Kenneth Abemathy had an objection to the last sentence in Policy 2.3
Kenneth Abernathy also had an objection to Policy 2.5 regarding rural planning
matters. The committee ruled to take out 2.5.
Mar Strain stated that he did not understand why this policy was added in. He
feels the information stated is redundant with other policies. He didn't understand
why a policy was created to form the information stated
The committee ruled to take out Policy 2.6.
The committee brought up concerns with the stewardship program regarding the
restrictions as "voluntary." It was said that in this policy there was information
being restated that already appeared in other policies throughout.
The committee ruled to leave Policy 2.7 alone.
Dwight Richardson brought up a concern with Policy 3.4. He stated that this
policy refers to policy 3.16. He mentioned the idea that in adjacent areas,
property owners have the call.
Kenneth Abemathy had some objection to Policy 3.4. He stated that changing
boundaries is not limited to the property owner. It is open to anyone to change.
Alan Reynolds debated at great length. He stated that the intention was good for
the environment.
He referred too the study area he was mentioning on the map. He went into detail
with this matter.
After the lunch break, Chairman Kenneth Abernathy began the discussion on
Group 3 concerns.
Mark Strain started off with 3.12. He asked questions discussing additional
stewardship credits received by landowners. He stated that if the landowner is not
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restoring the rural land, but someone else goes in and pays for it, how does this
factor into the stewardship credit allocations.
Alan Reynolds responded to this with the statement that the credits cannot be
factored in because the restoration value is on a case-by-case basis. The credit
has to be generated by the property owner and the owner has to want to allow the
land to be in the restoration program. They have to be willing to turn the land into
a sending area. At this point they move their rights and dedicate the land to this
purpose to that level of credits. He stated that the county negotiates it. Alan gave
a brief history on the restoration topic. He also stated that the restoration process
is a very expensive one.
Mark stated his concern with one sentence regarding conservation easements in
policy 3.3. He asked Alan if this needed to be restated.
Alan stated that the reason this is in there is to account for all the land already in
the study area that has restriction already in place.
Mark stated his concern with modifying the recreational uses, i.e. golf courses in
the HAS designations. He stated that these modifications should be referenced to
policy 3.7 so if any occur they will be carried over to this policy.
Mark brought up policy 3.16 and his concern with the last sentence. He needed
an explanation of this.
Mark Strain began the discussion on policy 3.3. He stated that one sentence of
this policy does not fit.
Mark strain also brought up a concern with policy 3.14. He stated the idea of
modifying recreational uses, i.e. golf courses in the HAS designation area. He
stated that any modifications would be referenced to policy 3.7, so any
modification should carry over.
Alan stated that the language in this policy was at the request of the staff. He
gave an example regarding the water retention area stating that if the water
retention area were changed from agricultural purposes to receiving area uses,
than one would have to go through permitting process again. He also stated that
one would have to consider some changes. He stated that if there was an impact
on the water retention area and its habitat, then it would have to be compensated
for the habitat's loss, so there is no net loss.
Kenneth stated that the Conservancy doesn't distinguish between critical and
ordinary waters. He asked if this was reasonable
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Alan stated that there was the request to identify which WRA can or cannot be
used for receiving areas.
Kenneth asked if this was reasonable
Alan stated he did not feel this was reasonable. He said he doesn't know how to
determine that, that the important part are that the safeguards are in here so they
are used to serve a receiving purpose there will protection of the environmental
value, habitat function, and water retention purposes. Alan stated that trying to
accommodate all concerns.
Alan Reynolds discussed policy 3.17. He stated that there was a discussion that
said that they strongly object since there is no scientific evidence that suggests it
is a good or necessary standard. He said that it is not accomplishing a purpose;
it's just putting another layer of regulation on top of rural land. He referred to the
map to give an example so that it would make more sense for what science tells
us. Alan referred to measurements on the original NERPA map. Alan stated that
there is already a fairly wide flow way corridor already established. He stated
that what they have right now is an incentive that says with an additional 500 feet
can get extra credit before putting an a restoration. He said there is no scientific
basis to putting in 2500 feet.
Mark Strain stated that this is preserving existing agriculture and that it is not
suggestion no agriculture uses, just saying there are no urban uses. He stated that
it's just pushing existing agriculture out. He doesn't understand why there is such
a big objection to this.
Bob Molher stated that it's the little elements. When looking at matrix including
the value of natural resources, the value of receiving areas, and the rational
economic decision.
Panther expert stated some facts regarding panther habitat.
Mark strain asked why are we asking for an expedited permitting review in policy
4.1.
Alan stated that it has to do with the economic diversification and accommodating
the population. He said there is a positive impact on the expedited process.
Paul Midney stated that if we are trying to minimize urban sprawl and maximize
agriculture, then why is it necessary to build towns and villages in this rural area.
Alan replied that the basis for creation of the stewardship program and
collaboration of credits is based on the population forecasted for this study area.
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May 24,2002
He stated they did not take into account the population growth of Immokalee. He
also said that Immokalee has to accommodate its own population.
He stated credits couldn't be used in Immokalee because there is no basis for
using the land already has designation for urban uses,
Alan brought up the ideas with average density and went over the analysis of
housing and acres to build.
Mark stated that the beach tourist market is not found in Immokalee. He thinks
there they would be looking for cost effectiveness, looking for smaller units and
smaller lands, in this case 4 units per acre.
Mark stated his concerns his based on the credits exchange rate in regards to
commercial, industrial, and all other element that goes into these villages and
town.
Mark asked about the limitation to amount of commercial and industrial zones.
Alan stated that the credits are built into the residential uses. He spoke about the
limitations for commercial and industrial uses. He also spoke of the market and
its regulations on using the credits for the other uses besides residential.
Bob Molher stated that they are approving policy that has guided parameters and
its specifics.
Kenneth Abemathy asked Alan if anyone had built a village under the TDR
system.
David Wolfley had a concern with policy 4.8 and 4.9 regarding buffer
requirements around SRA's being contiguous to FSA's and HSA's. Wanted to
know if there should be buffers or if they already existed. He felt 4.13 should be
referenced to 4.18.
Mark Strain had a concern with 4.13. issue of golf courses refers back to 3.17 and
the 300-foot boundary regarding golf courses. Wanted to discuss longer and
wider buffer for golf courses.
Alan referred to the components to buffering protection referenced in policy
4.10.4.11, 5.12, and 4.3
Kenneth had a concern regarding policy 4.10 and the PUD having 60 % open
space and the SRA only needing 35% open space. He wanted to know the
difference and the distinction between the two.
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Alan stated that the PUD is the urban areas, so the villages are in this open space.
He said this type of land use needs more open space.
Alan spoke briefly of a concern with the language of 4.12
Policy 4.13 was stated to be okay.
The committee decided to move on the Group 5 at this point.
Alan stated that this group was a relatively late comer to the process, which was
after the first set of GOP's.
Alan addressed comments from the last few days from EAC.
At this point the committee went over the EAC recommendations, led by Bob
Molher, one in regards to the impact of scientific data. They also spoke of the
elimination of the BERPA designation.
At this point, Kenneth Abernathy stated that they will be taking out the bonus
credit program.
Mark Strain had two concerns with Appendix D regarding the Stewardship
program.
Alan spoke about the process for the receiving areas and that the county is not
designated as a stewardship area.
At this point Nicole Ryan from the Conservancy spoke about any further concerns
that were not discussed. She stated that the committee discussed all issues that
she was concerned with. The committee did address all issues at hand.
Nancy Payton From F1 Wildlife stated there were still 2 issues that were not
addressed. One was in regards to wildlife crossing in stewardship areas and the
general policy referencing this and secondly, Wildlife policies. She was very
concerned with this. She stated that there was some reference to wildlife policies
in the final order in the rural fringe, but not in the rural lands amendments.
Bob Molher stated after Nancy spoke that he felt that wildlife policies are
adequately protect wildlife.
There was discussion on duplicating language from rural fringe in regards to
wildlife policies. It was agreed that language from rural fringe would be
duplicated.
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Bob Molher stated that would be no objection to that. He stated that any
reference to this matter in the rural fringe would be incorporated into the rural
lands policies.
Brad Cornell from Audubon spoke about his concern with the issue of the 500-
foot restoration zone on the ma intended for wildlife corridor. He suggested that
this corridor be in the habitat stewardship area. And that it be part of the 2500-
foot buffer. He also stated it would be needed to hear comment from US Fish and
Wildlife.
The committee stated that they were going with outside agencies to establish
corridor width. Bob Molher sated that Florida Fish and Wildlife has received all
of the information needed in regards to this issue.
Kenneth stated they have no position on the panther corridor widths, that they
have no expertise whether to know if desired or not.
Dwight Richardson stated that when the data is available from the best sources is
what will apply from all and any reviewing agencies.
Mark Strain brought up the concern that Brad Cornell had regarding the 500 feet
being included as the buffer area.
Bob Molher stated that the discussion on this was that there was incentive to
increase the widths where t is narrow.
Bill Lorenze spoke of the policies from Wilson Miller and the Advisory Council
fro Rural Lands.
At this point there was an elaboration on the items discussed from the GOP
structure.
Kenneth went over the changes made to the policies, group by group. He stated
that 1.4 was modified to have it say that it will take into account Group 5 Policies,
1.21 will be taken out, along with 2.5 and 2.6. Policy 3.4 concerning "delete" at
request of property owner and add threshold language at LDC. Policy 3.7 add
incentives for "public" golf course and add language shall first be directed to
previously cleared lands, as well as a cross reference to 3.17. Policy 3.12 needed
to add something relative to process to be followed. Policy 3.14 has a cross
reference to 3.7. Policy 4.3 has change with Mr. Molher's language concerning
basis for approval and should be substituted for with words shall approve. Policy
4.8 needs to have across reference to 4.13. Policy 4.13 was modified to require
that all turf areas be outside 200-foot boundary and add language concerning
wildlife crossings. Also need to have provisions from another source regarding
wildlife policies.
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May 24, 2002
Mark Strain had some additions including policy 2.4 regarding a language change
from will to may. Also stated there were some revisions given to 1.17, 1.22, and
3.12. Policy 3.7 had some corrections.
Kenneth Abernathy asked all those in favor of the motion to raise their right hand.
He stated the unanimous vote of 8-0.
The meeting was adjourned at 3:30.
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