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Minutes 04/19/1990 EXPANDED S PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD IMMOKALEE OOd!IUNITY LIBRARY IMMOKALEE, FLORIDA APRIL 19, 1990 PRESENT: Mr. Gil Mueller Mr. Kim Patrick Kobza, Chairman Ms. Geneva Till (arrived at 10:45 a.m.) Ms. Cherrlye Thomas Mr. Steven R. Ball, Vice Chairman Mr. Kevin O'Donnell, Public Service Administrator Mr. Cliff Crawford, Parks & Recreation Director ABSENT: none ALSO PRESENT: Mr. Ron Pergl, frau Forsyth Architects Ms. Michelle Edwards, from Collier County Growth Planning Dept. Ms. Jennifer Lenhart, frau the Naples Daily News Mr. John Witchger, frau Guadalupa/Immokalee Master Plan I. Call to Order: The meeting was called to order at 8:30 a.m. II. Approval of Minutes: Approval of 03/15/90 Amended Minutes. Motioned by Mr. Gil Mueller, seconded by Ms. Cherryle Thomas, passed unanimously. III. Tour of Immokalee Area Facilities: Toured by van to Immokalee Middle School site, Lake Trafford Park site, Airport Park site, and Immokalee Community Park site, from 8:45 a.m. until 9:35 a.m. IV. Old Business A. Election of Officers: The election of a Chairman and a Vice Chairman took place at this meeting. Mr. Gil Mueller made a motion to elect Mr. Kim Kobza as the Chairman. Mr. Steve Ball Seconded this motion. A vote was taken, and the motion passed unanimously. Next, Mr. Gil Mueller made a motion to elect Mr. Steve Ball as Vice Chairman. Ms. Cherryle Thomas seconded this motion. A vote was taken, and the motion passed unanimously. B. Action List 1. Frank E. hackle Building Expansion: Discussion of the letter dated March 23, 1990 to Mr. Ron Pergl, AIA, from Mr. Robert Salvaggio, Fire Plans Reviewer, regarding the plans for the Building Expansion. Mr. Gil Mueller Presented passed out a two page document regarding some research he had done on prices. Discussion took place regarding how much expansion, 16 or 23 feet, can we afford for $100,000.00. There Page #2 PARAB Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting was discussion to put the plan on the street. Mr. Steve Ball made a motion that staff put together some Construction Cost Estimates for a 16 foot expansion and a 23 foot expansion, and that we get three bids on those expansions and bring them back to the Board, and then at that time we can make a choice on which is the preferred option, and then get design estimates at that point. Ms. Cherryle Thomas seconded this motion. After some discussion, Mr. Steve Ball rescinded his motion, and Ms. Cherryle Thomas withdrew her second. Mr. Steve Ball made another motion to have Mr. Ron Pergl, AIA, put together the designs for the 16 foot expansion and the 23 foot expansion both, and the construction estimates based upon those designs. After some discussion, Mr. Steve Ball amended this motion, to receive a firm price proposal from Ron's firm, relative to design and Contract specifications for a 16 foot expansion, and a 23 foot expansion, and the design cost. That would take us up through the Construction Documents. Also, with the breakdown of the associated costs, and their professional fps involved, and a dollar figure of what it will cost to retrofit the sprinklers. Ms. Cherryle Thomas Seconded this motion. After this amended motion was discussed, the vote was taken, and the motion passed at 4-0. V. New Business A. Comprehensive Plan Discussion for Immokalee: okalee: Presentation by Mr. Murdo Smith of the Community Park Master Plan Layout. A Community Center is planned, and should be open by the fiscal year 1991-92. The design of the Immokalee Community Pool, for recreational purposes, is planned for 1992, and construction of the pool is planned for 1993. the Tennis and Basketball Courts will all be finished by 1994. In October of 1990 to 1991, the Football/Soccer field Construction will commence. Also, a Presentation about what Immokalee will look like in the future by Ms. Michele Edwards from the Collier County Growth Planning Department, and Mr. John Witchger a member from the Technical Advisory Committee for the Master Plan. No action was taken, this was for informational purposes only. IV. Old Business B. Action List 2. Beach Parking Permits: Mr. Kevin O'Donnell updated. Discussion of meters, pros and cons. PARAB is against meters for reasons of vandalism, and ability to be Goodwill Ambassadors. Discussion of County vs. State Beach Parking Permits. C 411MMMEMft AM Page #3 PARAB Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C 3. Tigertail Vegetation Permit: The survey has been completed. Harry Huber will call IRS with his recommendation. No action was taken, informational purposes only. 4. Conklin Point Update: Kevin O'Donnell updated Mr. Steve Ball on all of the past events, etc. Four boat lanes are proposed. We paid $2,075,000.00 for Conklin Point. No action was taken, this was for informational purposes only. 5. Baseball Field & Parking Lot North Naples Community Park: Update by Mr. Murdo Smith, and by Mr. Kevin O'Donnell. Discussion. No action was taken, this was for informational purposes only. C. Discussion of Beach Parking Permit: Discussion about how the State's Rules, and the Grant Application applies to the Beach Parking Fees. A survey has been completed. Two issues were discussed. The first one was whether or not to have a charge. The second was, if we elect to go with a charge, what that charge was going to be. Ms. Geneva Till motioned that we do have a charge, at the County Beach Parks. Mr. Gil Mueller seconded the motion, and it passed 4 to 1, with Mr. Steve Ball descending. Mr. Kim Kobza stated, "I don't believe there is a deficit, he believes on haw you characterize the expenditure, and to him a Beach Supervisor is analagist to Supervisors in the County Parks themselves. If you look in it in that fashion, there's not necessarily a deficit. We are talking about services beyond a Parking Lot Attendant, and the parking lot supervision that we have. So, that's just the perception, at least just on my part, and there are a number of ways to look at this thing. Every park has got to have supervision. So, phyilosophically, why would you treat Beach Parks any different?" Discussion of the Beach Supervisor's responsibility, and how the deficit relates to the that position. Mr. Kim Kobza pointed out, that the deficit comes out of Clam Pass Park. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell pointed out that at Lely Barefoot beach, the Lely Development will pay for the Parking Attendant's salary, but the Attendant will collect the Parking Fee for the County. Responsibilities of the Parking Attendants were discussed. Ms. Geneva Till motioned to leave the Beach Parking Fee as is (to charge $1.00 per car, at Tigertail, Clam Pass, and Vanderbilt Beach) , for one year, and re-evaluate it at the end of the year. Mr. Steve Ball seconded the motion, and the motion passed 4-1 with Mr. Gil Mueller descending. Lely Barefoot Beach was deferred as an Agenda Item, to the next meeting in May, 1990. { Page #4 PARAB Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting D. Absenteeism, Meeting Dates and Times: Mr. Gil Mueller encouraged Board Members to attend if at all possible. Discussion to move the meeting date, and time. Ms. Cherryle Thomas had a problem on how the time is spent/wasted at meetings. Ms. Geneva Till motioned that PARAB meetings be held on the fourth Wednesday of each month, at 1:00 p.m. Mr. Gil Mueller seconded the motion, and it passed unanimously. E. Beach Parking Signage: Mr. Murdo Smith updated. Signs were being made, and when they're made, the Transportation Department will locate them at Clam Pass and Vanderbilt Beach on U.S. 41. No action was taken, informational purposes only. V. New Business B. Plastic Materials on the Beach: Mr. Kim Kobza proposed reviewing the issue of regulating plastics in out beach environment. Mr. Kim Kobza passed out a report entitled "Cleaning America's Beaches: 1988 National Beach Cleanup Results" to be discussed at the May, 1990 meeting. This survey was done by the Center for Marine Conservation. They actually have the statistics in Washington, what percentage of plastic is in our beach environment. 51.7% of all debris is plastic. We basically have three problems. One is ingestion by animals, the second is strangulation of birds by plastic straws, and the third is that it's not biodegradable. First, we will have to be sensitive to the business interests, and secondly informational signs. There are organizations that will help us get those signs up. Questions on the ability to enforce such and ordinance arose. C. Boat Parking on the Beach: Mr. Kim Kobza proposed a sticker permit, issued by the Parks & Recreation Department, to park Catamaran Sailboats on beaches County wide. Mr. Kim Kobza believes that we need to have identified areas where boats can be kept at certain lengths of time. Permits should be renewable, and also fine nonpermitted boats being parked there. Also, if a boat owner gets permission fruit a private property owner to park boats on their beach, we shouldn't regulate that. D. Frank E. Mackie, Jr. Street Light Update: Mr. Murdo Smith talked to the Transportation Department. They said that a letter was sent to Lee County Co-op approximately two weeks ago. they see no problem with getting the light installed. Hopefully, it should be there by summer. There is a pole already there, so all they have to do is go and hang a fixture on it. C w Page #5 PARAB Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting E. Letter from Karen Davidson: Mr. Gil Mueller asked about the location of the pool. Mr. Steve Ball suggested having this subject a discussion item for the next meeting. F. Location for Next Meeting: Mr. Cliff Crawford questioned the location for the next meeting. Mr. Kim Kobza suggested having it offsite, onsite, offsite, onsite, ect. Mr. Kim Kobza would like to get the Bluebill facility board meeting up in North Naples, but next month will be at Golden Gate. VI. Adjournment Mr. Steve Ball motioned to adjourn the meeting. Mr. Gil Mueller seconded, it was passed unanimously. We then adjourned at 1:30 p.m. rtd:002275 0 0 C EXPANDED MINUTES PARRS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD IMMOKALEE COMMUNITY LIBRARY IMMDKALEE, FLORIDA APRIL 19, 1990 PRESENT!': Mr. Gil Mueller Mr. Kim Patrick Kobza, Chairman Ms. Geneva Till (arrived at 10:45 a.m.) Ms. Cherrlye Thomas Mr. Steven R. Ball, Vice Chairman Mr. Kevin O'Donnell, Public Service Administrator Mr. Cliff Crawford, Parks & Recreation Director ABSENT: none ALSO PRESENT: Mr. Ron Pergi, frau Forsyth Architects Ms. Michelle Edwards, frau Collier County Growth Planning Dept. Ms. Jennifer Lenhart, frau the Naples Daily News Mr. John Witchger, fram Guadalupa/Imnokalee Master Plan I. Call to Order: The meeting was called to order at 8:30 a.m. II. Approval of Minutes: Approval of 03/15/90 Amended Minutes. Motioned by Mr. Gil Mueller, seconded by Ms. Cherryle Thomas, passed unanimously. III. Tour of Imnokalee Area Facilities: Toured by van to limnokalee Middle School site, Lake Trafford park site, Airport Park site, and Inmrokalee Community Park site, from 8:45 a.m. until 9:35 a.m. IV. Old Business A. Election of Officers: (Tape #1, side A, #3.2--5.6) Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Since you don't have the members of the Planning Departent here yet, they're probably due any minute, you can move ahead and take care of some of your housekeeping stuff. A couple of things you need to do, with your new members, you need to think about electing new officers. Chairman, and Vice Chariman. What was that, Steve was talking about having Kim as Chariman? Mr. Steve Ball: You know, I have a little flaw here. . . Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Kim, I was just saying, I haven't seen 4111) Michele. . . She was going to be here for the Comp Plan discussion. You can take care of a couple other housekeeping things. One is the Election of the Officers. You need a Chairman, and Vice Chariman. Page #2 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C Mr. Kim Kobza: OK! Does. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: I'd like to make a motion that Kim be elected Chairman. Mr. Steve Ball: I'll second Mr. Kim Kobza: Is there any discussion at all? Mr. Cliff Crawford: (laughter) Since it effects you, I guess you get to discuss it. Mr. Gil Mueller: There's not a lot to discuss, is there? Mr. Kim Kobza: There's been a motion made, and seconded, no discussion. All in favor? All opposed? The motion passes. Now we have to elect a Vice Chairman. Mr. Gil Mueller: I'd like to make a motion that Steve be the Vice Chairman. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: I'll second Mr. Kim Kobza: Any discussion at all? OK! A motion has been made, and seconded that Steve Ball act as Vice Chairman. All in favor? All opposed? The motions passes. B. Action List 1. Frank E. Mackie Building Expansion: (#5.7--<>) C Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: OK! The action list items. Ron's here for the Mackle Expansion. Mr. Kim Kobza: OK! Let's go ahead and tackle that issue. It's been on the agenda a couple of times now. Kevin, can you give us an update? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: I guess, I'll defer that over to Ron. Where we were at, as I recall, when Ron jumped in, was. . . He had some questions relative to the Fire Code Provisions, kicking in as to whether we need some sprinklers or not. We wanted Ron to double check those particular provisions of the code, to see whether they were going to be applicable. From previous discussions, we were going on the assumption sprinklers were going to be applicable. You are now being given a hand-out. . . Mr. Ron Pergl: This is a copy of a letter from Bob Salvaggio, who is the Fire Plans Reviewer at the Development Services Department with the County. He would be one of the people that would review any plans that are submitted with a building permit. He is particularly interested in the areas regarding life C INMEW Page #3 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting IMOr safety. His letter basically states, that with the, after I reviewed the planned proposals with him, as they were laid out it would in fact require a sprinkler system, as he states, or in some way separating the building into two buildings with a four protective wall or partition of some type. Which we didn't consider as being a viable alternative initially, because it would essentially require us to cut that large meeting room, almost in two. So that would be defeating our purpose there. It also, after initially looking at it, would probably be more expensive, than to install a sprinkler system. So! Basically, that's what the letter states. If there's any other questions or comments about that? Mr. Kim Kobza: Any conversation? Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, Ron is right. I had talked to Salvaggio, and he had sent me a copy of that letter. The alternative of putting in a fire wall. . . It's got to go three feet, Ron, above the existing roof! Mr. Ron Pergl: Above the existing roof. The other alternative to that, would be to have a large roll dawn fire shutter, that would separate the room, and that in itself, would exceed the $40,000 or so, that we had designated for a fire sprinkler system. Mr. Steve Ball: Haw's the budget in this? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Well, again, you've got $100,000.00 which was, the Discretionary. . . A lot of money! I'm going to give you a quick 30 second background on how it happened. The board allocated the money out, $100,000.00 was set aside for Mackie. The money had not boon spent. Gil, has the representative from that area. He's talking to the people out there. We've been hearing inquiries on our own, due to the meeting space. It will be nice to have a little larger space. It was brought up at one of our recent meetings to usP $100,000.00 to expand the building and at that point we then contacted Ron Pergl and said, "OK! Let's start proceeding on it." When it looked like we weren't going to be able to expand the building by as much as we hoped to do with a limited amount of dollars, we had a discussion, pros and cons on C 4dit Page #4 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting sprinklers vs. non sprinklers. Why we're at the sprinkler issue naw, is when we first built the building, we maxed it out as large as we could without going to sprinklers. That was intentionally done for cost sakes. We tried to just keep everything as much as we could right under that threshold. Obviously in the expansion is, Salvaggio saying, it's going to put is into that new classification, and sprinklers are going to be required. So, you essentially have. . . If you want to use the pot of money for expansion of the Community Center, you've got the $100,000.00. Correct me if I'm wrong Cliff. I don't think the master plans at Mackle call for the Community Center to be expanded. Mr. Cliff Crawford: That's correct! Yes Sir! Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: So, this was. . . I don't think you could use the additional allocations for the few remaining facilities that remain to be done on Mackle. Out of the post of money we're appropriating each year for completion of the phase two of the community parks. We really ought to start focusing in on the use of the C;) $100,000. Mr. Gil Mueller: For the expansion? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: For the expansion, yes! Mr. Cliff Crawford: Steve, we have available, and the other Board Members have seen too, a detailed analysis or recommendations for improvement if you would like to seP it. Mr. Gil Mueller: I have that here, if anybody would like to glance at it. Mr. Steve Ball: So, dcPs that usP a lot of that discretionary. . . Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: I think! Yes! The speck was being used by a third of them. Wasn't it Bill? Mr. Cliff Crawford: The goal was to build as much to the dollar amount available. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Yes! We were going to end up with. . . Mr. Cliff Crawford: Including design and. . . Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: The building was going. . . I don't even recall how large it was going to be Ron. Mr. Ron Pergl: I think our computer was adding a 16 foot expansion. . . Mr. Gil Feller: Steve & Cherryle, to bring yourself up to date, this page refers specifically to what in fact we are talking about. 0 Page #5 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Obviously, with one third of the budget going towards sprinklers, as opposed to going towards building expansion. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: Does the building now, have any type of sprinkler system at all? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: No! Ms. Cherryle Thomas: Well, how did you get the community to build a building without having any sprinkler system to meet the code? Mr. Gil Mueller: Cherryle, as Kevin Mentioned, when they built the building, they built it within the minimum allowable limits for a sprinkling system. Had they gone much larger, they would have had to put a sprinkling system in. They extended it just to the point, where an automatic sprinkling system was not necessary. There exists in the building now, little cabinets that they put the fire extinguishers in. That's the extent of the sprinkling system. So, as he mentioned, in order to expand this building, you go into a. . . I think from a Class "C", to a Class "B", right Ron? Which necessitates an ® automatic sprinkling system. But that gives you the financial breakdown, and what we would be left with, in the event we went with this route. I think it was an additional 16 feet, if I recall. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Now! I've asked Cliff to just do some real rough, and again it's gonna be rough. . . Relative to the allotted moneys that we've got anticipated for completion for Phase II of Mackle Park. That park is more complete than the other parks. Only because it was a little bit smaller in size. He's roughing out what the items were, and what those costs were. That would come out of the appropriation that we come up with each year to complete Phase II. You may or may not want to then, think about, if the building expansion is then that high of a priority to this board. You may want to think about substituting some of these other things that we've got programmed. Because again, we revisited that almost annually to se whether or not we still want to proceed with whatever we've got on here. Page #6 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting 0 Mr. Cliff Crawford: OK! What we've got planned as part of the CIU Plan for Frank Mackle, is approximately $174,000 worth of improvement, which is in the breakdown following. We were going to share this later on with you all anyway, so you can have a copy of it. This is just one of our work spreadsheets. Which would include three additional basketball/volleyball courts, one additional children's playground, it would also include four picnic pavilions for picnicing on Frank Mackie. That would essentially complete our project responsibility as this point of the Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Gil Mueller: Excuse me Cliff, if I may ask you just to repeat that. As I may recall one basketball court, two volleyball courts, and four picnic pavilions. Is that what you said? Mr. Cliff Crawford: Three basketball/volleyball courts, yes sir! And again, one additional playground, and four picnic pavilions. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: OK! What I would like to suggest, and you may want to keep in the back of your minds, ® is as Cliff said. That totals it at approximately $175,000. That would come out of the $122 per capita. Again going back, we've got three standards for Parks and Recreation under the Growth Management. We've got an acreage, a regional park acreage per capita for the Community Park, and a expenditure per capita for Facilities. So we're not tied in to "X" number of swing sets or "X" number of jogging trails, or that type of thing but will include all the wrong type of expenditure which is $122.00 per capita. If you felt that the expansion of the community center is important enough that it should be proceeded with, meaning to embark upon a larger than a 16 foot addition, and exceed $100,000. The other place you can substitute the revenue, is by knocking off additional tennis courts, and say, "OK, fine! We collect it we've revised the plan, we no longer want to do that, we want to put the money elsewhere". That's legitimate purpose. That's a way in essence to increase your budget. You've still got that $100,000.00 and you basically end up saying, "OK! We Page #7 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C think building expansion is more important than tennis courts, and we are going to eliminate whatever those dollars are. Which we've got. We have to update that each year, we plug that into the additional costs. Ron can then crank out, numbers that tell you OK, "If you keep giving them more money, how much more? Then we think we can build the building. Mr. Ron Pergl: I think in our report, we state, approximate square foot cost. So, any additional moneys, that is had much more. . . Mr. Steve Ball: The discretionary money is for the remaining fiscal year, I take. Right? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: No! It's a one shot appropriation. What happened was, we had a lot of money appropriated initially for boat ramps. The board didn't think we would spend all the money on boat ramps, so they said, "OK! Fine! We know you can spend it on Community Parks". They took a half a million out, and dispersed it to five community parks. It was a one time shot. We just have never spent Mackle's $100,000. so it keeps rolling over. 4C;) But, once it's spent, it will no longer be re-appropriated. Mr. Gil Mueller: Kevin, can we have our cake and eat it too. For example: We have maybe three, four, five basketball facilities there now. I'm guessing, maybe it's six. I'm not so sure had much the picnic areas are used. At 1Past it's been my observation. They are not used to the maximum. I could be wrong about that, because I'm not there on weekends. Is it possible that we could perhaps go ahead with some of these things. Maybe cut it to one basketball court, maybe cut it down to two picnic areas, and utilize same of those funds towards this expansion? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Yes! I think that's a legitimate roll of this board to revise. Because, again, keep in mind that was Phase II of the Master Plan. That's what initially the community felt that's what they wanted in the park. Each year that can be reviewed and updated, and this was initially set back in 1980-81 when we were doing all the community parks. It was updated a little bit when we went C Page #8 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting through the growth management plan a couple years ago. But, that's collectively up to this board, if you feel comfortable with that. I would caution you a little bit on totally wiping out everything in Phase II and taking that whole 175. I think that you will want to think a little bit about that. Because literally what you have out there is going to be a completed park with the additional building. That's all you are going to end up with. In essence, we're not going to appropriate any additional moneys for Phase II. Because that will close out Phase II. I don't know if you'll want to cut yourself off like that. You may want to, but you know, I think that's something you'd want to think about a little bit. Mr. Gil Mueller: Would it be advisable to do some more research on this? Ask some more questions. Talk to some of the civic, and recreational groups. Talk to the people that run the park. Do some personal observing, as far as the activity on the weekends, season, and off season. All though that may be a little bit of a long term, and you may not want to get involved. And then make a decision or suggestion on what we feel was being used to the maximum, what is not being used, and where the money should go. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: You are talking to people right now that run it. Cliff's got numbers, and we generate that on his monthly reports, and we can share those with you, relate to activity at Mackie. I would encourage you to consistently talk to the people down there. Because what you are contemplating right now is making a major change in the Master Plan for that park. Which is potentially eliminating a lot of the additional facilities that were going in there, with the building expansion. I think before you make it, you'll want to make sure they want to give up the picnic table, and tennis courts, etc. Mr. Cliff Crawford: Because you are also looking at, as I'm sure you realize a Comprehensive Plan Amendment. There is an Amendment Process, that will need to be taken. It will have to go through C Page #9 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C both the Planning Commission, and the Board of County Commissioners. But they've also adopted a level of service standard for that facility, and if you want to make a change in terms of the construction, you must also realize that each project is budgeted for a fiscal year. If you are looking at moving forward, For Example: On the community park expansion for next year, and the picnic facilities that you want use those dollars are not budget until 1992-1993, you're going to have to try an get those dollars moved up, or delay your decision on expansion until that time. So, there's a number of factors that you need to consider, when you make those decisions. Mr. Steve Ball: I think that you can make those minor adjustments without going through that whole plan. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: The one point though, the 175 that Cliff's eluded to is through 1994. What these costs are going to be. That money hasn't obviously been appropriated. It is appropriated each C year. So, you don't have another 175,000 per say in cash available. Mr. Kim Kobza: I've got two questions. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: That would have to be appropriated, and we would be doing it on per facility. Now, we would have to eventually go to the Commission. Because, we did the same thing with the softball field, when the board directed us to move that up. Mr. Kim Kobza: Right! Right! Ron, is the relationship between cost and square footage a straight line relationship? Mr. Ron Pergl: Pretty much so. Mr. Kim Kobza: Whatever your square foot cost is, can we reasonably assume that we can buy "X" number of square feet. Like, if we say that we can $20,000.00 or $50,000.00 out of this 174, can we divide that by your square foot number? Mr. Ron Pergl: Pretty much so. Mr. Kim Kobza: Estimate. And, come up with the additional square footage that we would be adding? That would be safe for us to do? Mr. Ron Pergl: Right! Mr. Kim Kobza: OK! Mr. Ron Pergl: I would like to make another suggestion C Page #10 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting regarding the facility. We've been approaching this from a monetary standpoint up to this point. Now we are looking into seeing if there's additional funds. One thing we haven't taken a lot of time in looking at, is seeing what the actual needs are. How many people do you need to put in there? Mr. Gil Mueller: I don't follow you Ron. How many people do we need? Mr. Ron Pergl: Well, how many people do we need to put into one group into that room? How many people do we need to house there for a function? Mr. Gil Mueller: I guess that I don't follow you on the word need. I've been there hundrcds of times, and every time I go there, I count bodies. I think I have a pretty fair idea of the demand, a pretty fair of the idea of the number of people we can get into that room when it's crowded, when it's comfortable. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the word need to. I think the time is going to come before long, on Marco, that we could use a building twice that size. As I've mentioned. Not to be redundant, but we love meetings down there. It's going to get worse. So, we need a meeting room, we need twice the amount. But that's not possible. So, what do you mean by the word need? Mr. Ron Pergl: Well! How many people do you require to house in that room for a particular function? If there's a lot of groups that use it, and they consistently have 300 people in there, and it's very crouded. Are we going to try to house 300-350 people at a meeting there. That is what I refer to as need. Mr. Gil Mueller: There have been 500 people in that room, or close. 480 people. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: But, repeatedly at this point. . . How many times has. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: This has only happened twice to my knowlege Cherryle. But, as the political situation down there becomes more aggrivated, I think it's going to happen an awful lot. Now, that's the exception. That's not the rule, of course. But! Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: I think that you've got a couple of options of course to look at. One is proceed, and C 4 Page #11 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting basically expand the building today. We've got the money, and give yourself an additional 16 square feet for about $100,000.00 in which the building will be sprinklered. Life will go on, and we will continue with the other projects. If you don't think that expansion is sufficient enough of an expansion, the only other revenues I see right now, since we do not levy an impact fee on Marco. So therefore you can't say any of it is going to be very contributal to growth. Therefore, a portion of the impact fee. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: Is a Park and Recreation impact fee anticipated? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Not on Marco. And the reason being, because of the law amount of dollar expenditures we anticipate having to make over the next four years for Growth Management, for Parks & Recreation purposes. OK! Let me briefly explain. What had been set up was based upon the overall service standards, County wide. With all the facilities that currently are in place on Marco right now. The Racquet Club, Tigertail, the Park, etc. Only around $200,000.00 was anticipated to be spent through 1994. This will bring up into concurrency for the facilities down on Marco. Vs. millions in some of the other areas. Therefore, we said $200,000.00 over the five year period of time, we start facting it in to what it is going to equate to in an impact fee, it was going to be a miniscule dollar amount. An administrative heading lacked, then we were going to have a separate dollar amount that for Marco vs. what were charging in impact fees county wide because of the substantial differential in facilities in cost needed. We couldn't justify charging the Marco residents the same dollars as we were charging the Golden Gate residents, when we weren't going to at all put in those kind of dollars in future facilities down there. It just wasn't going to materialize. Therefore, we said that we weren't going to charge an impact fee down there. We would just appropriate each year the amount of moneys we needed to hit the $200,000.00 by C Page #12 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting Q 1994. That's why they were left out. Once that $200,000.00 for facilities is done, in essence from a recreation capital improvement perspective. Marco's done! And then, it's just a question of maintaining what we've got. As far as adding new facilities and stuff. That was not at all contemplated. Mr. Gil Mueller: Those facilities could still be improved upon. It has the expansion possibility. What if the impact fee were established at a reasonable amount? At a minimum amount? Would it then be palatable for the Parks & Recreation Department to collect, and would it be worthwhile? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Well! You could be establishing it at any dollar amount. What we wanted to do was. . . Again, this is the first time we've gotten into impact fees Gill. And, when we did that, we wanted to make it as Pasy and dependable as possible. What we wanted to have was one impact fee for a Community Park. It's the same dollar amount regardless of where you were going to pull the permit. And then, one for the Regional Park Impact Fee. 41;) We've done that, except because we're at a District Community Park set-up, the moneys had to go into particular districts. We would end up with this Seventh District, meaning Marco, at a substantially lower impact fee than the others. Murdo, what's the Community Park impact fee? Mr. Murdo Smith: I believe it's $230.00, or something like that. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: OK! It was going to be double digits, less than $100.00 when you factored it out with Marco. So, we just said, forget it. You as a Marco resident you're paying $50.00. the Golden Gate guy is sitting back saying, "I'm paying a $200.00 Community Park Impact Fee. This guy is paying a $50.00 Impact Fee. What gives?". We just felt that we were real weak to do that, and we felt with the low amount of dollars, and the potential problems associated with it, we could appropriate $200,000.00 collectively over 5-6 years if we needed. The tax revenue would come up with those facilities. Mr. Gil Mueller: I don't know. It's my personal opinion, in Q Page #13 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting 401) view of the other Impact Fees that the people of new buildings are paying on Marco Island. I can't imagine that anybody would object to paying what (this is a hypothetical figure) $75.00 Impact Fee to Park and Recreation, even though they might know that $50.00 of that would go to other areas. Immokalee, Golden Gate, or even North Naples for that matter. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: It couldn't! We can't usim the money elsewhere. It has to be used in the District. Mr. Steve Ball: What's the staff's opinion for expansion. Do they think we should go with this? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Based upon requests of Civic Groups, and other Groups. There is no doubt that additional meeting space will be used. What I'm going to say now, Gill's going to dispute a little bit, if he hasn't already. I'm not sure we've got, as a County Government, an obligation per say to provide meeting space for Civic Groups throughout the community. I think if we build those collectively in conjunction with our facilities, with our program needs, and if other Civic Groups want to use it. . . More poser to them! This is a classic example: This children's library section is used by a lot of groups at night, in Immokalee. They want to be able to close it off, and It's got a separate entrance. It wasn't obviously designed for that function. What we can have groups do it. I guess what I'm saying is, if we're going to embark upon building expansion, I'm more inclined to look at building expansion of our park facilities first as to what the department can use. We can definitely use more indoor meeting room space. As a result of that, if that gives us the ability to allow more Civic Groups to use it or have larger Attendance at Civic Group functions, more power to them. I think it's just another bonus. Mr. Gil Mueller: Kevin, there are many times when the room is extremely crowded for non-civic gatherings, Recreational gatherings. That's going to be first. I don't disagree with you as far as the basic premise as to whether of not there is an obligation to use it for a civic C Page #14 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C gathering. I'm still out on that. I don't know. But, I know the expansion is something that those people want. I have something else here that I would like to introduce in the form of a suggestion. I've done some research, and talked to some contractors down there, of course without letting them know what exactly I had in mind. In generalities getting some ideas on square foot costs. I have contacted three sprinkler organizations and again I've talked to them in generalities and gotten square foot costs and what it takes to put a sprinkling system in and so forth, and put together some suggestions. I've made copies of, and would like to pass them around to the members of the board, and staff, take a look at it. Put a couple copies down there, if you will Kevin. I have one left. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Ramona's got to get one. Mr. Gil Mueller: You can look at mine. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Yes! As long as Ramona's got one for the record. Mr. Gil Mueller: This is just a suggestion, I don't know if it 41:1) will ever be practical, but the information that I gathered is certainly factual. For Example: The prices that I have. This is a median amount as far as a sprinkling system price is concerned. It ranged from $16,000 to $20,000. I put in $18,000 just for the sake of discussion. Replace and repair the existing ceiling. That can be done for less money than we had anticipated. Remove the existing wall. I think that roughly what we figure as the wall. I don't understand, Ron, why you feel it will be necessary to remove the existing roof. There was a $2,000.00 item as I recall. Mr. Ron Perrgl: There's structural elements up there such as some of the roof trusses, sheeting, shingles, items that are going to have to be removed form the area that is going to be expanded. Mr. Gil Mueller: Oh! Right where the building ends. Yes! But I felt that figure was a little high, and I've reduced that. Anyway, we came down (I'll run throught this quickly) the General Contractors Overhead & Profit. So, you're talking about $26,180.00 Budget of C Page #15 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C $100,000.00 minus $26,180.00 leaves $73,820.00. Design Fees. . . I was able to talk to three different Architects. Two in Naples, and one in Marco Isand. Again, I wasn't specific as to what I had in mind. But, for that type of construction, they thought they could draw that plan for around $2,500.00. Take that from the $73, 820.00 and you've got $71,320.00. The rest of it is self explanatory. The bottom line is, that we would be able to add 1064 square feet which would result in 23 additional feet. Now, this is based on, as I mentioned, I talked to three Contractors, and their square foot cost for that type of construction ranged from $65.00 to $70.00 as I recall. And, I believe I put in a median figure here of $68.00. So, I think, and this isn't cased in brass. Anything to search the imagination. I think we could conceivably add 23 additional feet to that building. That might be all we want to add. Because you get to that point, where there's a Storm Sewer System, and to go a foot farther would mean tearing that up, and then you've got more cost. The one. . . Mr. Steve Ball: What's the expansion for now? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: You've been down to that Park. Mr. Gil Mueller: Look on that second page, Steve. . . Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: We've got it called the Community Room, I guess. It's a large mooing room. We're looking at busting out the back wall, and just extending it another 16 feet. Mr. Steve Ball: So, it's not substantially bigger than what we're thinking about before right? Mr. Gil Mueller: If you look on the second page, you'll see what we had in mind. The open white space is the existing meeting room. Originally, we did, thought or discussed, the possibility of expanding it 35 feet. That isn't going to be possible, I don't think. Now, I think that we can expand it 23 feet. You notice, I had 23 feet there. Mr. Steve Ball: Can we get same other estimates, and bring it back, and see haw that compares to what. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: One thing more, and I'll back off. You mentioned before about the usage of this building. Many times Recreational groups, Page #16 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting and Civic groups aren't able to get into the building, because there simply aren't adequate meeting rooms, and they need smaller meeting roams too. So, perhaps, if we were to run a folding roam divisional or whatever it is. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Cliff's very familiar with those. Mr. Gil Mueller: Cliff's very familiar. Mr. Cliff Crawford: Yes! I've got a first finger experience. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Similar to what we have in the Multi-purpose room in Golden Gate, we're able to split that off. If we could do that, that would obviously. . . Mr. Gil Feller: Split that room up. We're talking about a. . . I talked to two of them, and we're talking about $25 to $3,000.00 installed for an acoustical acceptable roam divider. That would give us an opportunity for an additional meeting room down there. Then we have what? One, two, three meeting rooms, as opposed to two. So, if it's a small group, sand put in here, and another group wants to get into the facility, they maybe only have 20-30 people, maybe they can use the other side of that roam divider. Mr. Steve Ball: So your feeling is that can be done within the budget that we have. Mr. Gil Feller: We're talking about, I think one was $2800.00, one was $2700.00. Installed, I think tax runs about $3000.00. Mr. Kim Kobza: Kevin! I have a question for you. How much Phase II moneys is there in the upcoming budget this year for Mackie? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: I don't think any! Mr. Cliff Crawford: No! None of the projects are scheduled, Mr Kobza. Until the following fiscal year 1992. Mr. Kim Kobza: So, what I'm getting at is if we wait, are we waiting perspectively two years. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: The $175,000.00 that Cliff referred to is not going to materialize until 1992 at the earliest. Then, it's only going to be for whatever moneys will be. . . Mr. Cliff Crawford: It totally wouldn't be available until fiscal 1994. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: So, you've got 1992, 1993, 1994. Those three fiscal years, moneys had to be anticipated to be appropriated into Phase II. a Page #17 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting Mr. Gil Mueller: In what year? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: 1992, 1993, & 1994. 1994 is the cut-off date, that we have to be in concurrence. Which is that bascially we have to finish Phase II of the parks. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: So, if we make a descision on this now, we can't complete it anyway, because we don't have enough money. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Well. . . Ms. Cherryle Thomas: . . .because the money hasn't been appropriated. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: . . .the money hasn't been appropriated, what you'd have to do is. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: $100,000 has. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: The $100,000 has been appropriated. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: The $100,000 is not going to take care of it, though. Right? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: . . .you've got cash right there. Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, that's the think that we're try to decide. Mr. Steve Ball: You think it can. The $100,000. Mr. Gil Mueller: I think it can. Mr. Steve Ball: Why don't we get a couple more estimates? Ms. Cherryle Thomas: Why don't we get somebody who knows whether it can or not, and let's just cut out the descision, and let's get to work and whatever! (unintelligible discussion Tape 1, Side A, #32.8 to #32.9) Mr. Cliff Crawford: . . .bring in a consultant to share that information with you. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: That's fine! I mean, but, we've been hassling over this for hours now. Now, I've been here what, four, five, six months and I haven't been saying very much. I've been trying to learn what's all going on. Soon's I know what's going on, I'm going to open my mouth! Now! I'm getting tired of hearing about this one right here OK! Let's make a decision on whether a $100,000.00 can do it. If it can't do it, let's wait until the next fiscal budget to appropriate the funds and let's go for it! If that's what you want! We've been in a lot of meetings discussing this same problem! Mr. Gil Mueller: Let me put it this way! This gentleman is an expert! He comes from a very prestigious Naples Architectual Firm. I'm a frugal German! Page #18 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting Ms. Cherryle Thomas: And I'm a frugal Black. And I'm telling you this type of decision's for you, or for the board, or for us. . . Mr. Cliff Crawford: You all need to make a decision! I think what Mr. Mueller has done, is done additional research. . . Mr. Kim Kobza: Let's have same order to the conversation! Mr. Gil Mueller: I feel it can be done for the figures that I've laid out. I've done a lot of research, talked to a lot of people about it, I think it can be done for that amount of money, but I don't think we can go any farther than 23 feet. 23 feet is going to add a lot of people to that meeting roam. Mr. Steve Ball: Before we appropriate funds for a construction project, aren't you required to get several different estimates? Mr. Cliff Crawford: Sure! We would go out, for that amount of money, solicite formal bids. Request a proposal, <34.0> would do the design and everything. You'd have your estimates, and we'd come back to you all. . . Mr. Kim Kobza: Couldn't this request for a proposal be structured in a fashion that we deem some alternatives? In other words how much? rather than defining the project in terms of exactly how much space we want, finding out how much space we could delegate. Do you know what I'm saying? Ms. Cherryle Thomas: Why don't you find out what $100,000.00 can do for. . . Alright? Mr. Steve Ball: Determine that for a proposal, and our budget how much expansion can we do within our budget. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Yes! We can probably sturcture it in some way basically tellin the contractor, "Look! Up front we've got $100,000.00. How much can you give us for $100,000.00" Mr. Kim Kobza: Is that practical? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: It's a little unconventional. It's a lot unconventional. But, it might be possible. My concern there is that you may be scaring away a lot of competant contractors. Mr. Steve Ball: One contractor could give you something different than the other one, and I think that could create some problems. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: You're dealing with two guys that has done this stuff a lot! 41111 . 4 Page #19 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C Mr. Gil Dueller: I don't know. I'm not so sure that we should shoot that down, that quickly. I know that contractors, not so much in Naples, but I do know them on Marco Island, I know the good ones I know the bad ones, I know the ones who are trying to make a lot of money, and the ones who get by on a reasonable amount of profit. And, I did speak to some of these people, and they gave me these square foot costs. I don't think that's too far beyond the realm of posibility to approach it from that side. It might be unconventional, but I really don't care if it's unconventional or not. If we can build a good building with a minimum amount of money, that's all I really care about! Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Ron, what do you factor in as far as putting together a set of plans? Mr. Ron Pergl: Well, we were figuring in a seven percent design fee, and then we added, I believe, another couple of percentage for the design of the sprinkler system that has to be retrofit. "H" would not be part of a. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: Do you want to refresh your memory on that Ron? You have the. . . You've got it there. OK! Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: So, for less than $10,000.00, potentially you can <35.8> the design. That'll be ready to put out on the street. That's the way you can eventually find out what it's going to cost you. Mr. Gil Mueller: Say that again Kevin. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: For less than $10,000.00, we can have a building design, specs put on the street, your going to have a Contractors coming in, and they're going to tell you what they're going to build for you. Mr. Steve Ball: Are we talking about different sizes of expansion? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Well, the way you can put Option One is, "We need 16 foot addition, or we want a 20 foot addition." Mr. Gil Dueller: What is the cost to putting. . . Is there a cost to putting bids out on the street? You included that as part of the cost. Is that correct? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Well, in the design cost. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: $10,000.00 C Page #20 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Ron's firm is going to have to put together a Set of Specs that we are going to be able to have to go to a Contractor with, so they can build on the lot. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: It sounds like an excellent idea. Put the Specs out for 16 feet, and 23 feet, and see what they bring you back, and at what cost. Then you'll know how far you can go out. Mr. Gil Mueller: I'm still confused about these Design Fees. What did we talk about here. We talked about. . . Was it 75? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Well, 75 would be about seven an one half percent (7-1/2%) . Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, I think that I just mentioned a while ago, that I'm capable of getting this design done, at $2500.00. Mr. Ron Pergl: I don't doubt that it can be done for that. I would question how well it can be done for that. I think that in a good design, it also reflects in good building prices. Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, Ron, you know of course, that there is an existing plan. It's not going to take too much imagination to add 23 feet on the existing plan. Mr. Ron Pergl: Oh, no! W. Gil Mueller: You can darn near copy it! That I must add, in all fairness, that the two Architectural Firms that I spoke to, are both reputable firms. If they were not, I would know about it. I would never have gone to them from the very beginning. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: We've got a couple operational concerns. Ron's firm is under contract with Wilson, Miller who's our Engineer of record for the Master Plan for the new parks. Ok! Which is why we've got Ron, and why we have the authorization to get Ron to put together this work. If we are going to deal with somebody other than that, for $2500.00 or whatever dollar amount, to do the design of the building, we're going to have to really go through the RFP process. Put an RFP out, and hire a Engineer/Architect to design the building, and in essence we'll pay Ron for the work he's done so far. So these debts. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, isn't it possible that this is going to cost $1500.00? Page #21 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Yes! He'll be paid for that, and if his firm wants to bid on it, along with any other firm, that process. . . Ms. Cherryle Thomas: . . .take a longer process. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: You'll automatically what. . . Minimum what. . . Probabel 90 days. Because it's going to take 30 days to put together, you're talking at least 90 days before you're going to see anything. Then you're going to be back picking either A, B, or C. Mr. Gil Mueller: Sorry, Kevin! I don't understand why you feel it would be necessary to put this design thing out for bid. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Because it's part of Purchasing requirements, and the fact that the Board has authorized us with a contract for Engineering/Design Services with Wilson Miller, for Phase II for the Community Parks. If we elect not to go with them, or something else, I think that we've got to go through that whole public process again and select an Engineer and Designer Firm. Ron's firm is working on it in conjunction with Phase II of the Master ® Plan of the Park System. That's why we are dealing with him, and we just didn't call Ron up and say. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: If we pay maximum amount for all of these things, we are going to be adding about 15 feet, and then it's not going to be worth it. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: There is nothing wrong with doing what you are suggesting, Gil. If we can get somebody to design it for $2500.00, Great! I think that we are going to have to put together an RFP, and put it on the street, and then hire an architect to come in and design. We are going through that competitive process to get an Architect, and then we're going to have to go through that competitive process to hire a contractor after he designs something for you. Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, we have to go through the competitive process of hiring a contractor anyways, so. . . Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: You have got to do that anyway. The only additional process that I think your proposal is adding to it, is going through the process of hiring a different Architect to do the design. C Page #22 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C Mr. Steve Ball: In that cost, to do that, is probably a lot more than what we would save on any design difference. We are talking about difference in design. Right? Design Cost. For the construction, we can get different bids for construction. Is that right? Ms. Cherryle Thomas: Right. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Yes! Well, one option right now is. . . Well, Ron, based on the budget we're telling him, he thinks we can get 16 feet. Gil's done some outside research and thinks we can probably go up to 23 feet following the same basic design criteria. One proposal might be, is let Ron finish up putting together some hand specs on the building. If he can do that, wrap it up and then let's throw the thing on the street. We can have one option. We want a building to be designed to give us an additional 16 feet, or we want a building to be designed to give us and additional 23 square feet. Ron can do that. Ron controls it, we put it on the street. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: You mean put the plan on the street. ® Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Put the plan on the street! Find out what these contractors are really going to charge us. Because we're going to have to go through that anyways. Mr. Gil Mueller: What is it going to cost us for Ron's firm to draw this plan to put it on the street? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Right now less than ten grand based upon the percentage that he's getting. That's what you're looking at. That's what I'm saying. Mr. Gil Mueller: You mean, he can charge as much as $9,000.00 to draw this plan? Maybe I am misunderstanding this. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Well, you said that. . . Mr. Ron Pergl: This is $7500.00 for design fees, is our estimate. Now, if you come to us, and say, how much is it going to cost to do the Architectural Designs plans? We would give you a proposal for that. It wouldn't be an estimate anymore. It would be a hared line figure. We would also ask you wether or not you wanted us to include any coordination, or any design for the sprinkler retrofit for the building, and be involved in any of that portion of the work. 0 Page #23 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, that's something that the sprinkler people would have to present to us for our approval. Not this Board, necessarily. Mr. Ron Pergl: The Sprinkler People will base their design on an Engineer's design, because they will come out of the building. It has to be designed with proper valving, and pipe sizes outside the building also. Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, Ron, I will tell you quite frankly. The thing that scared me, was the fact, that we were talking here about $7500.00 to draw this 16 foot addition, which in all candor I think in an exorbatant amount. Particularly in view of the fact, that I found that one was going to charge 25, and the other 23.5 or something, so I put down 25. Now, there's $5,000.00 in savings that's a lot of square foot to add to Frank Mackie Park. Mr. Ron Pergl: Again, without knowing the extent of those estimates, I don't know if they were including all the phases of that. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: Yes, they were. Mr. Ron Pergl: They were including all Engineering, and all mechanical, and etc. Mr. Kim Kobza: OK! Let's move in a direction here. We've spent a lot of time on this, and we have a lot of issues that are very important that we hit today. So, let's move in a direction, whatever it is. Kevin, if I understand your suggestion, it is to move forward in a design stage to understand what we have. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Right now, I have a lot of confidence in Ron's firm, and in Wilson Miller who our past dealings with them on Phase II of the Community Parks. The quickest way of doing it, I'm not saying the cheapest, but in order to get it, where you're finally going to come up with some hard numbers, which is really going to ultimately be the final descision as to how you are going to proceed. Go ahead, let Ron's firm complete our design, and get us Construction Documents so that we're ready to go on the street. We'll put that on the street. We can come back with various contractors with hard numbers, and we can put an option in there of a 16 foot addition, and a 20 foot addition. C Al Page #24 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting C Mr. Steve Ball: Now, Gil's concern is the design cost. Maybe we can get those cost estimates without doing the design or . . . Mr. Gil Mueller: If we go ahead with that as Steve said, if you say less than $10,000. Well this thing comes in less than $9500, we've already got $1500 into it. I mean that's $11,000.00 into design fees of the bat off the $100,000. I mean that's ridiculous! Mr. Steve Ball: Why don't we get construction cost estimates for 16 and 20? Mr. Ron Pergl: I would like to interject something for a second here. When I got these prices together, I asked people in the Construction Industry in addition to our reference sources to give us an idea what it would cost to do that. I actually had a sprinkler person, he was down there, looking in that building. Looking up in the ceiling, and in the attic spaces. That's where I got this square footage price. I took the old plans that that building was constructed from, and actually gave it to a contractor, and he reviewed it stating how much it would cost to 41) build that same building today. That's what I based my prices on. Mr. Gil Mueller: What did he give you Ron? Mr. Ron Pergl: He gave me a figure slightly less than what I have given you here, $76.00. He gave me approximately $72.00. Mr. Gil Mueller: $72.00? Well, you had originally put what in here? Mr. Ron Pergl: $76.00 I rounded that up. Because, in any type of remodeling, or retrofit, there's always unexpected, unanticipated problems, or extra costs that arrise. Mr. Steve Ball: To avoid coming in low, and than having someone start the project, and then it changes, and it's too late to. . . Mr. Ron Pergl: I feel very confident that. . . (end of Tape #1, side A. #44.4) (Tape #1, Side B) . . .and that may be, but it's a positive source. Mr. Gil Mueller: Plain building, concrete block construction, is as about as basic as you can get, and it should not exceed about $70.00 a square foot. Mr. Kim Robza: OK! Let's get this. . .<00.3>. Alright? Mr. Steve Ball: OK! Entertain some motion? C ou Page #25 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting CI) • Mr. Kim Kobza: Right! Mr. Steve Ball: Ok, I'll try one. I'll make a motion that we, that staff, put together some cost estimates for a 16 foot expansion and a 23 foot expansion, and that we get three bids on those expansions. Bring them back to the Board, and at that time we can make a choice on which is the preferred option. Then get design estimates at that point. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: I'll second Mr. Gil Mueller: Will that necessitate drawing a plan prior to that? Mr. Steve Ball: No! Mr. Kim Kobza: OK! We have a motion, and a second, let's have some discussion. Mr. Steve Ball: Without doing the design work, I think we can get cost estimates for contractor. . . Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: You want cost estimates of 16 & 23 foot expansion. You want construction cost estimates. Mr. Steve Ball: Construciton Cost Estimates. That way, we'll specifically know which option we want to pursue, and let Ron give us design estimates. Mr. Cliff Crawford: Based upon what? I'm a little bit confused, ® becaused I'm not sure what exactly you're asking for, or what type? Do you just want to go out to the Contractor and say, "Look! We are thinking about remodeling the building. Haw much is it going to cost? Without sharing with them any types of plans, or details relative to the project? My concern is that information is going to be bogus when you get it back. It is not going to give you anything other than general range of figures that they Generally do business in the Construction industry without having specific plans to know specific project. Whether to talk about retrofitting, the location of the building, size of the building. Without reviewing existing plans, I'm not sure, honestly, what information that's going to give you other than give you some general prices, as. . . Mr. Steve Ball: What if we send copies of plans. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: That's exactly what I've done. Mr. Steve Ball: Well! You think that you've already covered that. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: Well, isn't that what you wanted? C Page #26 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting IC) Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, I have covered this. But as I said, I'm not going to sign the thing. I'm not sure that those are the exact figures that are going to come in. They're general figures, but they are the result of talking to three Architects, three Sprinkler People, and three Construction People. All reputable people, and these are ball park estimates. Now there is a possibility that it might run a little more, Maybe we will only be able to put in 20 feet. I don't know! Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: I'm not sure we're going to get any better numbers than what Gil's already pulled out. Based upon this general type of broad brush scenario. Mr. Gil Mueller: What were you saying Murdo? Mr. Murdo Smith: I'm saying we've already got two estimated costs. One that Ron has done some work on, and got back from his Contractors at 76. One that you have Gil, at 68. So, say if we took a median between the two, and went 72, that basically what I think that. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: I apoligize, did I have 67? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: You estimated 68 on the one you read today, and Ron was at 76. Mr. Murdo Smith: So, if we took $72.00 square foot, between both of them, then we could figure out how many square feet we could get, and hopefully that would be where the bid price would come in! Mr. Steve Ball: I recind my motion. Mr. Gil Mueller: What if they come in for less money? What if they come in for $68.00 let's say? Does that mean we could revise? Mr. Murdo Snaith: You won't be able to tell. Maybe the bids will come in at 50, or they may come in at 100. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: Well, we don't know, but if it comes in close to the money that we've got to deal with, then you'll know how much you can have. Mr. Kim Kobza: OK! Now, Steve, you want to withdraw your motion, and the second's withdrawn? Ok? there are no motions on the floor. We'll entertain a new motion. Let's go from there. What are we going to do? Let's make a decision. Mr. Steve Ball: OK. Put together the designs for the 16 foot expansion, and the 23 foot expansion both, Jlw Page #27 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting IC:, and the construction estimates, based upon those designs. Mr. Gil Mueller: But, again, as Cliff said, how are we going to do that without a plan? Mr. Steve Ball: My motion is to have him design one. Mr. Gil Mueller: At what cost? Mr. Steve Ball: At his estimated cost. Mr. Cliff Crawford: You want a firm proposal. . . Mr. Steve Ball: So, why don't we get the proposal from Ron for these expansions, and. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: Proposal as far as the design is concerned? Mr. Steve Ball: Yes! Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Ron can cane back fruit his firm with a cost that will tell us to put together construction plans for a 16 foot expansion will be "X" number of dollars. To put together a set of construction documents for a 23 expansion, will be "X" number of dollars. Within this, he will factor in the Retro fit for the Sprinklers, and any construction management, that type of thing. Then you can sit back and say, "OK, fine! His firm will charge us "X" number of dollars to design a 16 foot addition, a 23 foot addition." You will know what that cost will be. You can then descide whether or not you want to go with him or not. If you descide not to, then we're going to have to go back on the street with the RFP process. If you like the numbers that Ron's firm come up with, you can sit back and say, "Fine! Design us this 23 addition." We go on the street, and the Contractors come in real low, and everybody is real happy because we'll get a 23 foot addition built for the $100,000.00 Or, if we find out that the Contractors are going to charge us a lot more, if it's $300,000.00, we can sit back and say, "OK! We'll rethink the whole position." And the only money we've spent, is the money we've spent for design. So, we've got the design plans done. It's only a question of appropriating the moneys for construction. Mr. Steve Ball: Ron, can you give us your fee estimates in that, broken down a little bit more so that we have a better idea of what all is involved. Mr. Ron Pergl: Yes! We can give you an idea of how much the C Page #28 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting Q Retrofit would run, and the construction, the design, engineering, etc. I'd like to project a little bit ahead at this time, because in order to go out and get prices you do need to get a little bit more than just this. Because, a lot of contractors go out there and say, "Yes! We can do this, for $65.00 a square foot." One thing that they don't know, and I don't know is issues such as. . . Do we have to increase the existing Air Conditioning System? Do we need to put in new one? Can we retrofit the existing? Which way would be the least expensive to do that? Or, electrical loads, services, is the existing large enough? Do we need to add more? Mr. Gil Mueller: The existing is large enough. Mr. Ron Pergl: Well, that I don't know. Mr. Gil Mueller: I do! Mr. Ron Pergl: That, I'll have to have an Engineer tell us. Because, that may be based on how much more Airconditioning we have to put in there. So, those issue, are things that need to get worked out. Mr. Gil Mueller: Sure! I agree! Mr. Kim Kobza: OK! We had a motion over here. Have you amended you motion. . . Mr. Steve Ball: Yes! I'm amending my motion to add what Kevin O'Donnell has said. So, the motion would then be. . . Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: The motion would be to receive a firm price proposal from Ron's firm, relative to design and Contract specifications for 16 foot expansion, and 23 feet expansion. Mr. Steve Ball: The design costs Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: The design, that would take us up through the construction documents. Mr. Steve Ball: Also, with the breakdown of the associated costs, and their professional fees involved. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: . . . and we'll have two bottom line numbers from Ron's firm. We'll bring those back to you and say, "It will cost "X" to design 16, it will cost "Y" to design 23, and then decide wether or not you want to do that route or not. Mr. Kim Kobza: We have a motion. Do we have a second? Mr. Gil Mueller: Can I ask another question on the subject? When do I ask another question. Page #29 Expanded Minutes 04/19/90 Meeting 440 Mr. Kim Kobza: At the discussion following the motion. Ms. Cherryle Thomas: I second. Mr. Kim Kobza: It's open for discussion. Ok? We have a motion, and a second, and naw it's discussion time. I have one question. So, basically as I understand it. Ron brings a number back, we like it or we don't like it. If we don't like his number, then we make a recommendation to the County Board to go through an RFP process for the design fee of this project. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Yes! Mr. Kim Kobza: So, if we don't like Ron's number, and explanation for services, then what we do is open it up to whatever other Architectual firms are. . . Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Yes! Mr. Kim Kobza: OK! That's basically the program? OK! Mr. Gil Mueller: I presume then that Ron will have that figure for us, when, the next meeting. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: I don't see why you couldn't do it by next meeting. You meet once a month. Mr. Ron Pergl: I could probably do it by the end of next month. Mr. Gil Mueller: But, it will be ready for the next meeting. At that point we will make a decision as to which avenue we want to persue. Mr. Steve Ball: Is this fee based upon the 16 foot expansion? Mr. Ron Pergl: Yes! Mr. Steve Ball: So, we basically have the. . . Mr. Ron Pergl: Well, that was an initial design estimate, based on what might be a projected. . . Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: I'd say there was probably 90%-85% develop. But, yes! That's the kind of number that you're looking at. Mr. Gil Mueller: But we spent $1500.00 on this. We anticipated according to spending, another 75. That's $9,000.00 off of the $100,000.00 we're going to spend on designing. That's 10% of the money that we have. That just bothers me! Mr. Kim Kobza: I'd like to call the motion to a vote. Is that acceptable, do you think? Mr. Kevin O'Donnell: Well, at this point, the only moneys that you're out, Gil, are for this report. Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, that's why I question spending this. I question spending another $7500.00 on what really is quite a simple plan to expand 15