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BCC Minutes 01/25/2016 W (w/North Collier Fire Control and Rescue District) BCC JOINT SESSION MEETING MINUTES January 25, 2016 January 25, 2016 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS and BOARD OF FIRE COMMISSIONERS OF THE NORTH COLLIER FIRE CONTROL AND RESCUE DISTRICT Naples, Florida, January 25, 2016 LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Board of County Commissioners, in and for the County of Collier, and the Board of Fire Commissioners of North Collier Fire Control and Rescue District met on this date at 10:00 a.m., in JOINT SESSION at Saint John the Evangelist Catholic Church, 625 111th Avenue, North Naples, Florida CHAIRMAN: Donna Fiala Georgia Hiller Tom Henning ALSO PRESENT: Tim Nance Leo Ochs, County Manager Penny Taylor Jeffrey Klatzkow, County Attorney Walter Kopka, Chief, Collier County EMS Dan Summers, Emergency Management Director BOARD OF FIRE COMMISSIONERS: CHAIRMAN: Norm Feder Christopher L. Crossan Margaret A. Hanson M. James Burke Roman E. Chao Richard Hoffman J. Christopher Lombardo John McGowan NORTH COLLIER FIRE CONTROL AND RESCUE DISTRICT: James Cunningham, Operations Chief Orly Stolts, Fire Chief Rita Greenberg, Executive Chief Jorge Aguilera, Deputy Chief EMS Page 1 JOINT BOARD MEETING OF THE BOARD OF FIRE COMMISSIONERS OF THE NORTH COLLIER FIRE CONTROL AND RESCUE DISTRICT AND THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OF COLLIER COUNTY January 25, 2016 10:00 AM AGENDA 1. MEETING CALLED TO ORDER 2. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE 3. ROLL CALL 4. PRESENTATION OF STATEMENT OF CONFLICT ASSESSMENT ISSUES CHART 5. DISCUSSION OF THE CONFLICT RELATING TO NORTH COLLIER FIRE CONTROL AND RESCUE DISTRICT RESOLUTION 15-043 AND SETTLEMENT OF SUCH CONFLICT 6. CONSIDERATION OF NORTH COLLIER FIRE CONTROL AND RESCUE DISTRICT'S REQUEST TO EXTEND ITS EXISTING COPCN FROM JANUARY 29, 2016 EITHER THROUGH THE RESOLUTION OF THE CONFLICT OR ANOTHER FUTURE DATE AS DETERMINED BY THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS 7. PUBLIC COMMENT 8. ACTION BY COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS (if any) 9. ACTION BY NORTH COLLIER FIRE CONTROL AND RESCUE DISTRICT BOARD (if any) 10. SCHEDULE ADDITIONAL MEETINGS TO CONTINUE TO SEEK RESOLUTION OF THE CONFLICT (if necessary) 11. ADJOURN January 25, 2016 CHAIRMAN FIALA: The meeting will come to order. Welcome, everyone. Pretty soon I'm going to take my jacket off, but -- I know it would be nice if I did, but I just can't yet. And I welcome you-all this morning. I'm glad to see such a nice audience that has joined us on this nice Monday morning. I ask you to stand, please, and say with me the Pledge of Allegiance. (The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.) CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. And now may we have a roll call, please? I don't know who's going to give the roll call, but that's on our list. Leo, do you know who's going to be giving the roll call this morning? MR. OCHS: We could ask our court reporter to begin the roll call and the names. THE COURT REPORTER: Okay. Donna Fiala? CHAIRMAN NANCE: Oh, okay. We each give our own names and positions then, okay. My name is Donna Fiala. I'm Chairman of the Collier County Board of County Commissioners. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Commissioner Georgia Hiller, District 2, and Chair of Economic Development. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Tim Nance, District 5. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Penny Taylor, District 4. COMMISSIONER McGOWAN: John McGowan, Commissioner, North Naples. COMMISSIONER BURKE: Jim Burke, Commissioner, North Collier Fire. COMMISSIONER CHAO: Ramon Chao, Commissioner, North Collier Fire. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Richard Hoffman, Commissioner, North Collier Fire. COMMISSIONER HANSON: Margaret Hanson, North Collier Fire Commissioner. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Chris Crossan, North Collier Fire. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Chris Lombardo, North Collier Fire. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Norman Feder, Chairman of Collier Fire. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Laura? MS. DONALDSON: Oh, sorry. Laura Donaldson, counsel for Page 2 January 25, 2016 North MS. DONALDSON: Oh, sorry. Laura Donaldson, counsel for North Collier. MR. KLATZKOW: Jeff Klatzkow, County Attorney. CHAIRMAN FIALA: And while we're at it, let's have the people in the fire service that are in the back row at that table also just mention who they are. Jim, you want to start? CHIEF CUNNINGHAM: James Cunningham, operations chief, North Collier. CHIEF GREENBERG: Rita Greenberg, Executive Fire Chief, North Collier Fire. CHIEF STOLTS: Orly Stolts, Fire Chief, North Collier. CHIEF AGUILERA: Jorge Aguilera, Deputy Chief of EMS for North Collier Fire. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you very much. I was going to start with the attorneys -- COMMISSIONER NANCE: The county? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Pardon me? COMMISSIONER NANCE: You want to do the county? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Oh, our county people, yes. MR. OCHS: Good morning. Leo Ochs, County Manager. CHIEF KOPKA: Walter Kopka, the chief of the EMS. MR. SUMMERS: Dan Summers, Director, Emergency Services. MS. PRICE: Len Price, Department Head for Administrative Services. CHAIRMAN FIALA: And forgive me for overlooking. It's kind of hard to see from here down to where you guys are. Excuse me. I was going to start with a presentation by the two attorneys but, instead, I would like Leo Ochs to please take the podium and present the Statement of Conflict Assessment Issues Chart. (Commissioner Henning entered the meeting room.) CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Henning, would you please state your name for the record also. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Tom Henning, Collier County Commissioner, District 3. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. MR. OCHS: Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning, Commissioners, Page 3 January 25, 2016 ladies and gentlemen. My name is Leo Ochs. I'm the County Manager. On January 13th and 14th, county staff, along with the Board's County Attorney, met with members of the North Collier District staff and their legal counsel on a series of conflict assessment meetings. We spent the better part of two afternoons on the 13th and 14th of January identifying issues of conflict and attempting to resolve those issues. From a personal perspective, I would like all the commissioners to know that I found discussions on those two days to be professional, frank, very constructive. I thought that both parties worked in good faith to resolve the issues that they could resolve given the parameters that were identified by both of the elected bodies that we work for. And so we did spend a couple of days working primarily on the elements of an interlocal agreement. That interlocal agreement from the fire district side was conditioned on the issuance of a Certificate of Public Convenience and Necessity. We set that issue aside while we talked about the interlocal agreement, understanding that that issue was one that we were unlikely to be able to resolve at the staff level, and we reserved that discussion for this meeting today of the public bodies. I think with regard to the interlocal agreement, we did find some potential common ground in areas related to a common county medical protocol, pursuing some common credentialing criteria for all of the ALS medics that work in the system, either on an ambulance or on an engine. We found some common ground on training protocols. We were unable to resolve issues relating to the medical director and the authorization and appointment of medical directors. We also still have some work to do on patient care reporting, quality assurance, quality control and, essentially, that was, at least from the county's perspective, the outcome of the two days of the conflict assessment. So I would characterize it as we still -- we made some progress, but there are still some fundamental differences, those primarily being the issue of the issuance or non-issuance of the certificate and also the issue of the county's interest in having a county medical director set the standards for medical protocol, training, paramedic credentialing, patient care reporting, quality assurance, and quality control. Of course, our board is very open to the district having the autonomy to Page 4 January 25, 2016 select their own medical director but would like, ultimately, all the medical directors working as associates or in some way under the final guidance and oversight of a single county medical director. So that's my report, Madam Chair. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. MR. OCHS: I'm sure Chief Stolts may want to make some comments as well. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Very good. Chief Stolts? CHIEF STOLTS: Good morning, everyone. Everything that I was going to say Leo just said for me. But I will say the meetings that we did have -- the two afternoon meetings that we held were very good meetings. We were able to sit at the table and communicate very well. We made headway on some of the things. A few of the other things, really, we felt that -- beyond our control, and that's what we felt we needed to bring to you-all today. So I appreciate county staff participation in those meetings and our staffs participation. We felt we made some pretty good progress on that, so thank you very much. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you very much. Now we're going to have discussion of the conflict relating to the North Collier Fire Control and Rescue District Resolution No. 15-043 and settlement of such conflict. And I believe that that would start with the attorneys, right? Yes? And so let's start -- Jeff, would you like to start? County Attorney Jeff Klatzkow. MR. KLATZKOW: I guess the primary issue, really, that needs to be addressed is whether or not we can do business under an interlocal agreement and only an interlocal agreement, or whether we can do business under the issuance of a COPCN. That's the core issue here. I think many of the other issues can be resolved at a staff level, if that issue can be resolved. And I think that probably will be the primary discussion point. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Laura Donaldson, would you like to speak there? MS. DONALDSON: Commissioner, I agree with County Attorney Klatzkow. During the conflict assessment meetings, we did make progress, but Page 5 January 25, 2016 there are a couple of fundamental issues that staff was not empowered to make decisions on and, really, the purpose of this meeting is to try to have a dialogue among the board members. The County Attorney and I have a great working relationship. We can pick up the phone and talk but, really, this is an opportunity for the boards to be able to talk about the issue as it relates to the issuance of a COPCN. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Very good. Let us start with the North Naples Chairman, if you would, please. Norm Feder. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Thank you, Commissioner Fiala. What I would recommend is we have in front of us -- and I think the public has access to it, I hope, as well -- a series of issues -- and let's get those copies out -- that were discussed with the staff. And it might be helpful if each of the attorneys would basically note their position on the item, let the boards then discuss it, see if we can resolve that issue or at least better define exactly where we are on that issue. If we can't get it resolved, move to the next issue, and go down the list. Hopefully, I can get some successes, come back to those issues that we didn't resolve. The first one being, obviously, somewhat the hardest, as is already identified. I think maybe that one actually gets changed over to the end and we do that as the last one, I might recommend. But I think we need to go through each of these issues, evaluate where we are, and start with the issuance of the COPCN. In this case, the Collier County position was noted as North Collier would operate under Collier County's COPCN state license and, of course, North Collier's position is that North Collier would operate under North Collier's COPCN state license. So we've got a difference there. If we can get each of the attorneys to review why maybe they've advised their board the way they have, and then the boards can discuss that. And, as I said, if we can at least further define the issues and maybe get them narrowed in or resolve it and then go to the next issue, that would be my recommendation. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Madam Chair? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Certainly. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Yeah. I believe currently there is litigation to determine if indeed an interlocal agreement -- it's my understanding that North Collier Fire at this point maintains that interlocal agreements are illegal, Page 6 January 25, 2016 so I don't see any reason why we should have a big discussion on anything that can be handled at the staff level while that's still a determination. If North Collier Fire is resolved that we're going to take this to court and that's the stance, I think we're wasting our time today. COMMISSIONER FEDER: I would tell you that we specifically wanted this meeting and put our legal issue on hold. We don't relish the idea to be in a legal battle with the county, but at the same time we have to preserve our rights. So having said that, I think that what we're doing today is saying let's put that to the side, which we've done, and rather than proceeding on that right now, find if there's some way that we, together, can work through these issues. COMMISSIONER NANCE: So you're telling me you've withdrawn the lawsuit? COMMISSIONER FEDER: We have not withdrawn it. I will defer to Laura for the status on that. MS. DONALDSON: Madam Chair? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Please. MS. DONALDSON: We are under the Chapter 164 dispute resolution process. So the lawsuit, effectively, have been stayed. This joint meeting is required by statute under a very quick time period as well as, if we're unsuccessful here, the statute requires us to go to mediation. But right now the lawsuit has been stayed. And it was filed because there was a 21-day time period that we had to submit the lawsuit or we'd lose that right to challenge the lawsuit, so we had to very quickly file it recognizing at some point that we'd have to sit down and talk about the issues. COMMISSIONER FEDER: And I think it's important at the outset -- I know, at least myself-- and others who can speak for themselves. But I believe, from our board, we honestly would like to see if we can make some progress today, ideally, on all of these issues. But if we can't, let's understand that we tried very hard to get to that point, because I don't think any of us wants the other approaches to be the way we have to proceed forward. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Very well. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Jeff Klatzkow, do you have a comment on that as far as the stay, and can we discuss this openly as long as the lawsuit is stayed? Page 7 January 25, 2016 MR. KLATZKOW: The lawsuit's very simple. It's whether or not the COPCN is legally required. So feel free to discuss anything and all you want. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Commissioner Hiller? COMMISSIONER HILLER: Since this directly affects the constituents of my district, I have great concerns about what's going on here. The dispute is over a question of law, and the question, as Jeff properly said, is whether or not a COPCN is required in order for the two independent agencies to enter into an interlocal agreement, in effect, a mutual-aid agreement. And I would submit that it is absolutely necessary. It is necessary that both agencies have a COPCN individual to those -- to each agency that allows for the same level of service that is the basis for the mutual-aid agreement that is being proposed by the county. So to that end, I don't feel that the county can contemplate entering into an interlocal agreement with North Naples Fire to provide ALS services to the constituents of my district, District 2, without awarding a COPCN to the North Naples Fire District to allow North Naples to provide ALS services. And that is, for everything I can see from reading the law, how the matter has to be resolved. Now, what I also don't understand is how this board can deny North Naples Fire a COPCN based on the evidence that North Naples has produced at the public hearing since the facts provided clearly rise to the level that would afford this board the right and the duty to grant North Naples a COPCN to provide ALS services. Lastly, if we can extend, based on the evidence that North Naples has presented, the COPCN by a day into the new year, by a month into the new year, by two months into the new year, we cannot deny 365 days because the facts that support the COPCN for a one-day extension are the same facts that support a 365-day extension. The bottom line is, the residents of District 2 are being compromised by what the Board of County Commissioners has done by wrongly denying North Naples Fire a COPCN and, as a consequence, the inability of the county to enter into an interlocal agreement to provide mutual aid, to provide ALS services, to save lives in District 2, as well as now the expanded North Naples Fire District, which includes, I believe it's your -- COMMISSIONER CHAO: Big Corkscrew. Page 8 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER HILLER: -- your district, which is Big Corkscrew. So I have very, very grave concerns. I believe the public's health, safety, and welfare is being compromised. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Any other commissioners want to -- yes, Commissioner Henning. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Yeah, thank you. The City of Naples works under an ALS agreement. The City of Marco Island works under an ALS agreement. All the other independent fire districts work under an ALS agreement, not a COPCN. By expanding the request for a COPCN is fragmenting care in Collier County. The citizens of Collier County doesn't stay within the district. District 2 residents travel outside of District 2, okay. There needs to be a common response protocol, and if we keep on issuing COPCNs to the other independent district or the municipalities, we wouldn't have a common practice, okay. It's very simple. Now, the COPCN settlement that was forwarded to the County Attorney and the Board of Commissioners is illegal. It's simply illegal under the Florida Statutes. We can't do that. So I think it's very important. And I know that you're looking at one area, but the Board of Commissioners needs to take a look at all the residents and visitors within Collier County and -- at least that's -- my position is if we can have a standardized procedure, training, response, and knowledge -- I mean, you have, correct me if I'm wrong, over 100 paramedics in the district; is that correct? (No verbal response.) COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. We don't have that many to service all of Collier County. And one of the concerns is, is the knowledge -- the hands-on knowledge that the paramedics have when they go to a call. Can you imagine if you went to a realtor that practices real estate but cuts hair on the side and only does it a couple times a year, or would you want to go to somebody that cuts hair on a regular basis? That is one of the issues. Now, I've heard from the men and women on the street "shared information." Just as you would share information when you take that patient to the emergency room, that same information needs to be shared with our EMS administration and the personnel for that patient care. Page 9 January 25, 2016 However, I think the real issue is if we had a consolidated fire and EMS, set your own protocol and let the county get out of the business. That's my comment. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Hiller? COMMISSIONER HILLER: Thank you. I'd like to respond to Commissioner Henning. COMMISSIONER HENNING: I -- you know, I don't think it's necessary. This back and forth, Commissioner Hiller, doesn't serve anybody -- anybody any good. You have your opinion. Everybody knows your opinion. To counter my opinion is just not productive at all. COMMISSIONER HILLER: It's my right. So as I was saying -- COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Madam Chair, do we have a protocol for this meeting? Are we going to go back and forth, or are we going to make statements? CHAIRMAN FIALA: No. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Can we set something? And I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I think it's very important. CHAIRMAN FIALA: That's all right. That's the seat that I hold. But I would like to hear what Commissioner Hiller has to say, and then I want to hear from the people in North Naples so that we get their opinion as well. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Thank you, Commissioner Fiala. In response to Commissioner Henning, Commissioner Henning's logic is flawed. The state sets the standard. The standard of care is uniform throughout the state. So citizens who live in one district traveling out of Collier County into another county will receive the same level of service as they would in District 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 in Collier County. Whether they're in Lee County or Dade County or Leon County, the state sets standard of care. There is no disparity when ALS services are provided. So that argument that we have interlocal agreements in order to ensure a uniform standard of care without granting those independent fire districts COPCNs is incorrect. And the fact of the matter is, all those independent districts, whether it's the independent fire districts or the cities, should have their own COPCNs in order to have interlocal mutual-aid agreements with respect to ALS services. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. Thank you so much. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Madam Chair? Commissioner Fiala, can Page 10 January 25, 2016 we hear from our EMS chief to see if-- who sets the standard of care in our county? CHAIRMAN FIALA: I know that you folks were willing to speak. Would you mind if I heard from EMS first? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Go ahead. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay, fine. Thank you. CHIEF KOPKA: Good morning. For the record, Walter Kopka, Chief of EMS. The state sets the standards for equipment, medications, training for the EMS agency. The medical director sets the protocol. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Thank you. CHIEF KOPKA: Medical protocol. But the state sets standards for what medications we have to have, what equipment we have to have, what training we have to do, but the medical director sets the standard for the protocol. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Chief Kopka, would you please explain protocol. CHIEF KOPKA: Medical protocol, what procedures are done for certain patients, what medications are delivered for patients, what hospital they're transported to. There are some certain criteria for trauma-alert patients that the state sets standards for but, other than that, the medical protocol standards are set by the medical director how patients are treated. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Thank you. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Did you have a question? COMMISSIONER NANCE: No, I just wanted -- I just wanted to say something relative to the general discussion that's here. And I believe that it's completely ridiculous to say that the level of care is equivalent across our county and across Southwest Florida. I don't see any way that the services, for example, that are delivered in Lee County can compare to what we have in some areas of Collier County. And that having been said, in the eastern part of the county, the low-density areas where distance turns into a time issue, there certainly are big challenges. I don't think anybody can assume that the care that is ultimately delivered in the county can be said, honestly, it's equivalent. Certainly the effort is there, but I think that the task before us is not to defend the current system but how to determine how we can deliver the very best in services. Page 11 January 25, 2016 And I don't think that, based on a national evaluation on who gets the very best in results, that it's controversial at all that we certainly ought to move to a unified emergency response. And the only way we can move to a unified emergency response is if we have a completely cooperative and coordinated effort, and that is going to require us to change what we're doing now. I don't think moving to independent licenses where we continue to engage in a debate over which system is better or best is going to take us where we need to be. We certainly need to have consistent and coordinated information so we can evaluate it and respond rapidly, and we need to have all units, regardless of political boundaries or independent reformed districts working in concert, and I don't think there's any issue right now that that is not taking place as well as it could be. Have there been improvements made? Absolutely. Have the fire districts done great work in their consolidation? Absolutely. Does it mean we're where we need to be? I think we're falling well short of our opportunity, and I think that's the goal before us. That's, I believe, what the Board of County Commissioners want to do, and I hope that that's what the independent fire districts would like to see done, and that is to finally be able to put together a unified emergency response as others in the United States have done. I mean, if we want to be the gold standard, then we have to -- you know, I hope everybody aspires to that like I do. And that's what I'm interesting -- I'm interested in getting done, and, you know, I think we have to overcome some of these issues here before we can get there. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. COMMISSIONER FEDER: If I could, before we hear from staff or the fire, I'm going to ask that we on the board here -- and I'll start out, and then go down -- others that want to. First of all, Commissioner Nance, I very much appreciate your comments. I think we all want to see continued improvement, some modifications countywide over time. And I think that's good, but it's not really the issue at hand right now. We're not dealing with the issue of a broader consolidation. We're dealing with the issue right now of medical treatment and continuation of care. Page 12 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER NANCE: Sir, respectfully, I did not use the word "consolidation," and I did not mean consolidation. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. COMMISSIONER NANCE: I meant exactly what I said, sir, a unified emergency response. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. And I appreciate that. I still agree with that statement as well. I would point out, though, I find it interesting, we are working under one single protocol. This is basically what's in each of our paramedics' and EMTs' -- on their phone, in their trucks, the protocol. Right at the bottom it says, medical director, Dr. Tober; assistant director, Dr. Lee. It is the protocols. It's what everybody works from, including every single paramedic and EMT within North Collier. And so when we say "a consistent protocol," I think it's important to note that we have one protocol within the county. And as a matter of fact, if we go to change, even through our own medical director, we have to bring that to Dr. Tober and seek his authorization to change the protocol in any manner. So we're working under one protocol. As far as quality assurance and other issues, I think that's where, under -- once we have a COPCN -- an interlocal agreement, we've got the ability to expand and make further improvements, and I agree that that's critical that we have good reporting, that we have good quality control and those issues, and I think there's many respects we do. The last thing I'll just throw out for the general discussion is we have a lot of strategies on how is the best way to approach it but, at the same time, we've had five years of experience, very, very productive experience. There have not been problems at all. As a matter of fact, they're very good results they've experienced from North cooperating under a COPCN for the last five years. So it's not that we had a problem that we're trying to solve, and that's why I raise that issue. Yes, I think we need all-hazards, but we've already started there, and now we're retracting from that. Commissioner Lombardo? COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Thank you. Madam Chairman, do you mind? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes, certainly. Page 13 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm going to try to focus us from a little more of a pragmatic perspective. Far be it for the lawyers to be pragmatic. So be it as it is. We're not talking about hairdressers working as realtors. We're talking about emergency responders, first responders that are cross-trained, that are state certified in two disciplines which is an extremely efficient model to deliver services. We're talking about 100 paramedics that four days from now will no longer be able to practice. We're talking about more paramedics than the county has. That's what North Collier has. We're talking about a training program that exceeds the state requirements for training by more than twice. It's double what the state requires. So we're talking about excellent paramedics on both sides of the equation, by the way, both the county and North Collier. We're talking about providing services across the board that allows for that to continue. The disturbing aspect of this, for me, is for five years we've operated under a COPCN. For five years that results in people sitting in this county that would not have survived but for the fact that we have cross-trained North Collier paramedics that saved their lives. I'm sure if they were here today they would say to you that this is unbelievable that we would have this discussion. We applied for a renewal of our COPCN in March. And, by the way, we had a COPCN. We didn't get our response until September, and that's when we became aware of this circumstance. For me what's disappointing is if we were going to have a paradigm shift, a different approach in how we're going to do this, then I think the appropriate way to have been -- to do this is to tell us back in March, gee, we're thinking about a different approach so we could at least work our way through rather than wind up in circumstance where we're now past the expiration date of our COPCN, we're in an extension, we're four days away from shutting down the system again. And by the bye, for us it's very, very scary, not just for the residents of North Collier, but also for the individual paramedics, and they are paramedics, because the question becomes, what's their liability if at 12:01 they continue to provide services? That's a problem. So I look at this and I think the answer is really pretty simple. The answer Page 14 January 25, 2016 is, if we need to talk about a different approach -- and we need to recognize that we didn't write the statute that says we cannot do an interlocal agreement. That's not us; that was the state. And that's scary also because there's a reasonable interpretation that could be made that if you're functioning under an interlocal agreement without a COPCN -- so you're not a like-kind entity -- then you have personal liability when you sit on a board like this. I don't want personal liability. I don't want to be responsible for someone who's injured as a result of the fact that they don't have access to a paramedic. I don't want that, particularly when I'm fighting to get the answer. I mean, to me, that's the problem. So we didn't write the statute. I can't help it that there are other interlocal agreements that I think are inappropriate and unenforceable and, quite frankly, expose those members of the boards to potential personal liability. It's a mistake. I don't think you continue to repeat mistakes. I think the answer is this: We -- allow us to have a COPCN for the next year with the understanding that you-all want to talk about a different approach. I agree with Mr. Nance that a unified response is a good thing. Quite frankly, that's why we're trying to provide a unified response across North Collier, and we're North Collier. We're no longer North Naples and Big Corkscrew Island. We're North Collier. We are a significant aspect of your county. We are covering a significant number of your constituents. And you're right, Commissioner Henning, we don't have people in District 2 that don't -- we don't just have people in District 2 that travel outside District 2. It turns out we have people in District 1, District 5, District 4, District 3 that go through District 2. And so we impact everybody in this county. What you have is a proven system with a quality team with a quality training program which, by the way, we're willing to open up to the county EMS as well. You're talking about 100 paramedics or more that are state-certified paramedics, some of them former trainers for Collier EMS. So we're not talking about a circumstance here where we are putting anyone at risk by continuing what we've done. In fact,just the opposite. If we continue with this where we equate this to hairdressers working as realtors, we are putting people at risk. That's not what we're dealing with. We're dealing with people's lives. We're -- every single day. Page 15 January 25, 2016 Four days from now someone's going to have to answer to people as to why it is that we took 100 paramedics out of service. Extend the COPCN for a year. We'll -- we understand you want to re-approach this. We'll go into negotiations. We'll figure out the answer. I tend to think that the interlocal agreement doesn't work. Again, we don't write the statute. But that's the short answer, and we need to get to it soon. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Let me just ask a question, if I may. One of the things I heard someone up here on this side say was that the information between the North and Greater Naples is not shared as far as, you know, patients or protocols or so forth. I don't think it's protocols,just shared information so that in case we're answering something, do you -- would you be amenable to sharing information between the two? COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Well -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yeah. CHAIRMAN FIALA: That's a big sticking point. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm not sure if the question is North Naples -- North Collier with Greater Naples Fire Control or North Collier with the county EMS, and I'm going to -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: I think it's with EMS. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Okay. My understanding -- and I'm going to ask Chief Aguilera, if you wouldn't mind. I don't think that's the issue for us. I mean, obviously, there are HIPAA issues and things of that nature we've got to comply with, but what typically happens, as I understand it, is when our paramedics arrive on scene, when your paramedics arrive, we share information. We update them on what the status is, and we turn over control. The objective is to get a paramedic on scene as fast as possible. We're trying to save lives. CHIEF AGUTLERA: Good morning, Madam Chair. Jorge Aguilera, Deputy Chief of EMS for the North Collier Fire Department. The answer is there's ways of sharing information. I mean, there's using, I believe they're called, business agreements or business affiliation agreements that follow the federal HIPAA compliance laws. There are ways of doing that. I mean -- so the key is, can we get to a point where we can discuss those agreements? Page 16 January 25, 2016 Now, as Commissioner Lombardo was saying is, the state law basically requires to do a verbal transfer of care when the North Collier paramedic is on scene and starts care. That happens all the time. There's a verbal transfer of care between both agencies to move forward. We're in the process of sharing that information with the hospitals in a similar fashion as the Collier County EMS currently shares or run reports with the hospital. I don't think this is an issue of sharing information. I think we can get there if there's a need for it. Both agencies -- I guess the key is this here: This key for sharing information is to ensure quality on both sides, and that is a quality assurance function that -- once again, if we can get a point to be able to discuss the format and do that -- and if you see your 10 points, we did have some discussion on how to achieve that -- we can potentially achieve that. That's not -- I don't think that is an unsurmountable goal, if that's what we want to call it, a goal, to share information. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thanks. I just thought -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: I'm going to show it to you in just -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: -- if you take -- you know, pick apart some of these things that have been presented to us and maybe come to a conclusion, we could gather them together and come to a final conclusion, if it can be worked out. It might not be worked out today, folks, and if it isn't -- I would love to see it, but this is the toughest of all of the questions, and it happens to be first. So I think that we have to do whatever we can to find a way to work together, and if we cannot, then we have to turn it back over to the attorneys, I guess. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Can I ask a question? COMMISSIONER FEDER: I would -- go ahead. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: If North Collier has a COCPN (sic) or is given a COCPN -- COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: COPCN. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: You know what I mean -- does that mandate that we have our own medical director? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Well, they wanted their own medical director, if I might jump in. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: By law you have to have that. Page 17 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: We have to have one, by the way. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. It would have to be different, but it has to be there. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: COPCN. COMMISSIONER FEDER: I believe -- I'll just make a comment. I don't think we could get there; we need to get there. And I think that's part of what we'll discuss shortly. I believe Mr. Kopka had some interest in speaking to that issue. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Well -- and I want to throw in one other thing. Commissioner Fiala, I hear you, and I am here to find a solution, but I'm also here to remind everybody that we have four days. I mean, therein lies the problem. We're talking about taking over 100 paramedics -- and, by the way, someone of the most senior tenured paramedics in this county -- out of service in four days, and we're talking about taking them out of service in probably the highest density of population in the county. Again, to me, the answer is rather than go through the process we are with lawsuits and meetings like this, the answer would have been much, much better had you just said to us, we're going to extend for one more year, but we're going to open up discussions right now to work through this so we don't wind up, up against the wall by December 31, 2016. That's the problem with what we're doing. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Chief Kopka. CHIEF KOPKA: If I may, Madam Chair. Just to clarify, the patient care reporting system that we're referring to is all the documentation that goes into how a patient is treated, what is done for that patient, what medications are done for that patient. EMS and the districts that we have interlocal agreements with are on a patient care reporting system, and all that information is kept in one place. North Collier has its own patient care reporting system. They're two completely separate systems. They currently don't mix. We don't have access to them. So it's two different patient care reporting systems. And also, as for the training aspect, the commissioners have made a comment which is absolutely true. There is one common medical protocol but, since there are two different medical directors, there are different standards how Page 18 January 25, 2016 those paramedics are trained to that common medical protocol. But there are -- but there is one common medical protocol. The training standards are different because there are two separate systems. I hope that clarifies. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Madam Chair? CHAIRMAN FIALA: I have a real stickler question, but I don't know if I should put it on the table yet or not, and I haven't spoken to anybody about it, so Norman? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Madam Chair, I'd have you fall (sic) anything you want to raise. I was just going to raise that -- I'd see if there's anyone else on our board that wanted to address this and if not, maybe that we go on to the next issue and come back to this one a little bit later. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. I know Commissioner Taylor wanted to say something. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Yeah, a couple of things. First of all, from my reading and certainly from talking to some medical personnel in our county and also some folks who came out of our county to offer a data-driven-decisions seminar this year, as much as ALS is important, it's BLS that is the critical part. And so that, you know, 100 paramedics, ALS cross-trained paramedics, are going to be out of-- not going to be able to practice in North Naples doesn't address the fact that it's -- without BLS, lives wouldn't be saved. That's why they're there first. And, oftentimes, it's my understanding, that basic life support, when it's undertaken at a call, sometimes ALS is not even required. Now, I'm not -- I don't have data in front of me. I've just been told by experts. The other issue would be regarding the medical director and the training. It's my understanding that the ride time on ambulances is extremely important for paramedics' training, and they don't always get it, and that, under the current medical director, the training requirement varies district to district. Given that, why would North Naples not want to be part of a larger system whereby it appears there's flexibility in the training on the ride time, specifically the ride time on ambulances? And that it is not one size fits all. It is based on geography; it's based on the amount of training the paramedic has on a monthly Page 19 January 25, 2016 basis. So it's looked at very carefully. Why would North Naples not want to be part of that? COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: If I may respond. First we're in North Collier. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: I'm sorry, North Collier. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Secondly, when it comes to training, our training protocols and our training programs are roughly twice what the county does. Third, we've done -- this is not a new issue. I've been on this commission now for almost, what, 18 years. This is an issue that we've wrestled with for years and years. We did the ride-share program before. We listened to the argument that riding on an ambulance is extremely critical for a paramedic. Here's what we learned. Our firefighter/paramedics became drivers, and so they weren't getting hands-on experience. They were getting experience driving a vehicle. We have plenty of experience driving vehicles, thank you very much. What they need is experience in the back of the ambulance, and that's not what they were getting. What we found is by implementing our own training programs where we can provide hands-on programs -- and we do joint training programs with Arthrex where our paramedics work on cadavers. We have identified para -- excuse me, doctors that have done training programs in obstetrics, in pediatrics, in senior care. We even had a veterinary care program come through so that we can provide a full range of services and keep them current. So we are a critical part of the system right now and have been for the last five years. In fact, I would tell you that I think in the field it's worked extremely well. The -- this is not a circumstance where there is a functional problem on the ground level. This is a political situation. That's what this is. I respect the fact that there are those that would like to see other objectives. The way to do this is to say, fine, we're going to extend the COPCN for a year, and then we're going to go into negotiations to resolve how we handle things like data exchange and patient-file sharing, because all of that can be done, and it can be done with business agreements or things of that nature. The idea of taking 100 paramedics out of service in the interim while we try to figure out the answer, that, to me, as a long-term citizen of this county, Page 20 January 25, 2016 unacceptable, unacceptable. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Did you have somebody else on your board that would like to speak? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. Commissioner Crossan. COMMISSIONER CROS SAN: Just for the public, like Commissioner Lombardo has just stated -- and let me preface of my background a little bit. I started in the fire service in 1991 under Chief Murphy back there, and I'm currently still in it. And I don't draw the lines -- and I work well with some of the county paramedics who are also firefighters, and I agree with Commissioner Nance that at some point, you know, we have to get there. We have to get there, and it has to be a single-service delivery. But when they come on a fire scene and they're paramedic/firefighters -- just like last week, the building was on fire -- I don't draw the lines. He comes in and does his job. And as far as we're concerned in the Corkscrew delivery area -- I think that's one of the reasons last time the Naples Daily News gave me the nod; my captain's paper was on the role of the paramedic. And I can tell you, Ms. Taylor, that I do agree with BLS, first BLS. I'm CPR certified. I start with that. But there's those times when we need that ALS intervention. And I have a lot of-- a lot of the county employees who live in my district who think this is absolutely ludicrous that we're not being allowed to do this. And I respectfully submit that you guys vote for the extension of the COPCN today and we continue working on these other items as well because -- Ms. Taylor, it's those times when a child needs an asthma treatment and maybe one of the QRV projects. And then I've had employees of the county, as yesterday, two days ago, that they have 16 positions available but only 11 people signed up. So if our 100 paramedics go to the wayside, then, wow, we're even more in trouble. And believe me, it does work, you know. And I know the comment about the hairdresser and everything else. But when I run a scene, my interest is starting from Lori and ending with maybe Spencer -- because I like him back there, but Chris Spencer back there, and it's each individual person. And we always place that county paramedic or the paramedic from the firefighters because, believe me, on both sides of the coin, there are really strong Page 21 January 25, 2016 suits, and there's people who aren't that good. And we just simply make the -- I make the process, when I run a scene or when Chief Murphy runs a scene, to take care of each individual sitting there, and that's what this is about. It's not, can the firefighter do the job, because everybody's held to a high standard in our organization now. And I only expect that, and that's why I pride myself for working for Marco Island but also working with North Collier, because we have so many schools out in that delivery area. And now that we've merged as one, there's people from the North Naples service delivery area and the Corkscrew in the North Collier service. The shirts are all the same now. The paramedics have came across that line. And we need that service, too, and we need to further that service on our ALS engines, too. As many times as one of the toughest places in the county -- and Chief Allen is here from Immokalee -- that when they're out on that fire, and they're out on that fire all the time, that when that engine moves up, we have the ability to deliver that service as well as far as a single source, like Mr. Nance says, through the county, which we would not have the ability now because everybody knows in this room who's in the know, too, there's been many just paramedics out in Immokalee that have pulled that hose line for that fire engine apparatus that only had two people on it at some time. And that's what it's all about. It's about everybody in this building having the same service. And, I agree, we'll get there under that protocol. We'll get all these little things, you know, before. But this COPCN is of importance because, you know, I've had one of my firefighters whose father passed away right in front of him because he couldn't get enough epi, and it was -- I see the heartbreak on his eyes. He worked with me yesterday, and it was years ago. And I've seen, with coaching football at FBA or whatever, I went and assisted with those asthma treatments. And I know there's only one nurse working in the three elementary schools. So when is it -- that day that that kid's going to have that thing? And that's all I'm talking about here. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER CHAO: I wanted to -- the most important thing that everyone in this room and in this county needs to understand -- and I'll go back Page 22 January 25, 2016 to my history. I worked for Collier County EMS for 15-and-a-half years. I retired out as a special operations lieutenant. I was -- I trained, and a lot of those people that I trained are working in all of the different fire departments now. I've been accused that I'm pushing the whole fear-mongering thing and stuff like this, but there is -- on the Naples Daily News they played the advertising, and when -- they didn't play the advertisement. They played the actual call, and in the call you hear the deputy arrive, a minute later he calls that the guy's in arrest, the fire department arrives, and they're there giving awesome BLS. But all the ALS treatment that could have gone through, putting a heart monitor, starting an IV, giving the medication -- for four minutes they stood there doing what the deputy had already started, the CPR, and establishing an airway. That's the difference between the ALS. And for the people that are out there, be sound and safe to know that you have got top-notch paramedics. And all this stuff going on that you hear here does not -- and I'm telling you -- does not go on in the field. When a medic shows up, there is the utmost respect. They're handing off Everyone is working together. You don't see -- if you got on a truck and you worked a month, you wouldn't even know there's anything -- there are no seams here. It's a seamless, uniform operation. But the fact that you're going to cancel this and take it away is just -- as I have said in the past, it becomes criminal that someone has to see their -- sit there and watch someone knowing you have the skill and you cannot use it. Because I can tell you this: I know a lot of these kids -- and I call them kids because they're in their 20s and their 30s now, and I'm in my 50s -- that they would jump out there and save that person and do what they had to do if the equipment is available to them, not realizing the jeopardy they're putting their families in all over a simple thing. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Sir, could you -- could we -- COMMISSIONER CHAO: That's it. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. I wanted to get back to the subject instead of the examples. Peggy? COMMISSIONER HANSON: Okay. Page 23 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER FEDER: Do we have any other comment? Oh, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER HANSON: I would -- certainly, I agree with the idea that Commissioner Lombardo put out giving us a year and trying to work forward with something, obviously. What I want to just mention is that -- because it was mentioned "sharing," okay. There's one way where we can share on a certain level, and that's by having all of our paramedics who are available get together at these meetings that we have started. And this was started by Jamie Cunningham and Jorge Aguilera. And we have an EMS council that meets, sometimes every month, sometimes it might be every other month. And we have sometimes half a dozen doctors who come there. And one doctor who has -- who spends time in other parts of the country, and he's known throughout the nation. We have not only the doctors locally, though, but we have a doctor from -- isn't that crazy -- Lee Memorial Trauma Center, as a matter of fact, who comes to the meeting. I couldn't even think of the Lee Memorial. Anyway, we have a pharmacist many times. We have someone from the Sheriffs Department. We have nurses, and we have many fire chiefs who come. We have very few paramedics from other areas. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you, Peggy. COMMISSIONER HANSON: And I'd like to see us have a joining of all the paramedics so that we can find out the latest in drugs, because some drug companies, if they're not making enough money, they're dropping some of these essential drugs, and we have to go with something else. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. Now -- COMMISSIONER HANSON: Well, we've written letters to our medical director and told him about a number of things, never getting anything back. There should be a sharing of this. And that's a perfect opportunity where all these paramedics could get together and really learn a great deal, I think. So the COMMISSIONER FEDER: Thank you. Thank you, Commissioners. CHAIRMAN FIALA: You know, as I'm listening here -- and we're not going very far. It's been an hour and we haven't gone anyplace. So I'm going to throw something out on the table. And the good thing is, I don't have a dog in Page 24 January 25, 2016 this fight, so it's pretty easy for me to preside, which is great. What I'd like to say is, I hear from both sides, and I'm trying to sort things out in my brain here. I'm hearing what you say: Give us one year, and then we'll sort things out. How about if we give them one year with their own COPCN with the drop-dead date of one year but everything has to be resolved and ready to go into place, and we might have to consider changing medical directors so that there's one medical director that both sides can accept, because a lot of this goes back to the medical director at this time. And I think if we can do those things, we just -- as long as the drop-dead date is one year, and after that we just take over or we have a combined effort. To me, that would seem to be -- you have a goal in mind; you have a date in mind; you understand what needs to be done. Now get there and do it. That's my suggestion. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Commissioner? Commissioner, I would tell you that we would find that to be a very responsive approach. I think it's one that allows the public to weigh in, both of us to evaluate options and hopefully to make some progress. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Nance? COMMISSIONER NANCE: Commissioner Fiala, very respectfully, when I arrived on the County Commission -- and I arrived there not to have a career position. I arrived there to do something following my retirement. One of the first things I was told is that this issue had been kicked down the road for over 20 years before I got there. We had testimony on the dais, okay. We have an opportunity right now to build -- to continue to build a unified response. The independent fire districts have done great work. There have been movements on everybody's front, except North Collier's, to cooperate. I don't see any reason why we need to continue to kick this down the road. We've defined the difference. North Collier has the ability to cooperate if they want to. They have the ability, but what is lacking, in my evaluation of this analysis, is their will to do it. That's the only thing. They have the ability. They don't have the will. Collier County has the ability to move toward -- to continue to move towards a unified response. There is absolutely nothing that I can see that more time kicking this down the road is going to make a difference. Page 25 January 25, 2016 If everybody agrees that these are -- that the differences that are outlined in this analysis are hard differences and everybody agrees that these differences are firm, then we are wasting our time doing it. Until somebody decides they want to cooperate with the county and they want to continue to suggest that somehow the county is depriving them of the ability to do something, this is absolutely nonsense. The only thing that's depriving them from working together with everybody else who somehow has found a way is the will of North Collier Fire to do so, and I don't think time is going to produce that will. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I respectfully disagree. The law is the problem here. I can't help it if the way you're doing this with other districts and cities is incorrect. We're not going to go down that path. We haven't been kicking -- COMMISSIONER NANCE: Well, Commissioner, you're the only one that's right. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: We have not been kicking -- we have not been kicking this can -- COMMISSIONER NANCE: Everybody's finding a way to work together, and you can't figure it out. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'll listen. COMMISSIONER NANCE: You cannot figure out a way to cooperate because there's some esoteric, philosophical thing that exists out there that means that everybody else is wrong except you. This is ridiculous. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: All right. Let's make sure we understand something. We're not talking about esoteric philosophy. We're not talking about me. We're talking about a state law. That's what we're trying to do is follow the law. And so that's what creates the problem here. It isn't a lack of will or a lack of desire. We're sitting at a table. We asked you to come to this table to work this out. Why? Because we recognize the problem. We've been doing this for five years under this approach. It's you that changed the direction. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: With all due respect, you -- COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Wait -- allow me to finish. I took Page 26 January 25, 2016 interruptions before, but I'm going to complete. We have -- you have 100 paramedics -- we have more paramedics than you do. We're in the middle of season. We have a record number of people here for the season right now. Four days from now you're taking 100 paramedics out of the system. That's reckless. That's absolutely reckless. We have a desire to resolve this. My approach is a little different than yours. I'm not going to tolerate being bullied. The answer is, you -- had you warned us back in March when we made this application, we could have opened up that discussion. You didn't. You waited. And so here we find ourselves in this very embarrassing predicament which, if I was sitting out there, I'd be just astonished, absolutely astonished. The answer is we extend for a year. We understand your objective. We work through it, we figure it out, and we figure out how to do this so it is compliant with the law. Not compliant with esoteric philosophies, not compliant with what I'm asking, but compliant with the law. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER FEDER: I would go -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: I have some people -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: If I could go a little further. CHAIRMAN FIALA: -- asking to speak, okay. I've had Commissioner Hiller waiting. Norman, you are waiting. Commissioner Taylor is waiting. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. Let me then -- let me just proceed forward on that. CHAIRMAN FIALA: So you want to go first? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Please, please, if you allow. What I think is very, very important here is that you've had a process for five years that's worked very well. All of a sudden the surprise of change after an application in March in September. Bottom line is this: It is not so much that we are uncooperative. We are being dictated to. That's number one. Number two, I will find a solution for you. Here's a good one. Right now, if you will put one of your EMS paramedics on each one of our vehicles, we'll solve the problem. I don't need a COPCN. Now, where we need a COPCN is that we don't have that ability from EMS to be as responsive as you can from the fire delivery, and we know we get Page 27 January 25, 2016 there first. Now, that's not necessarily better. I think it's as good but, nonetheless, we're there first. Then we hand over. And we don't transport, and we didn't ask for any of that. Now, eventually, I think an all-hazards is going to get a lot of these issues, and I agree there. But the fact of the matter is, we're out there; we're responding to a need; it has been very effective for five years. And so there is an approach. Is the county ready to support its own EMS to the tune of being able to have somebody from EMS on every one of the fire trucks so that they will be there first every time? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Hiller? COMMISSIONER HILLER: Thank you. I have to agree with Commissioner Fiala and with Commissioner Lombardo. I'll begin with Commissioner Lombardo. It is about the law. It is not about philosophy, and there is nothing esoteric in these arguments. All the independent districts, the municipalities, and the county are governed by the same statute, and that statute is clear that if ALS services are to be provided, a COPCN has to be granted to the political unit, and that political unit has to have its own medical director, and the standard of care has to be the state standard, and the standard of training has to be the state standard. It is also clear that to have an interlocal agreement both political units have to have the legal ability to provide the same service that is the subject of that agreement. A lot has been accomplished, contrary to what has been stated. More importantly, there has been agreement on significant issues which, for some reason this morning, notwithstanding the introduction by County Manager Ochs and by Chief Orly Stolts, have been suggested to divide. There is agreement between county staff and North Collier staff on a countywide common medical protocol. That's not an issue. It's done. It's agreed that there's going to be a common medical protocol countywide. There's an agreement that there is going to be a common countywide credentialing and re-credentialing criteria standard set. It's a nonissue. There is -- with respect to the training, the training, as was said when I first started talking about this, is set by the state. Every single paramedic, in order to be recertified, has to prove a certain level of training. That's established. Coordination on purchases. That's going on. Page 28 January 25, 2016 So, again, while we're having debates about issues which staff has told us has been resolved, we consistently avoid the most significant issue, which is the law, and this debate is about the law. And I believe Commissioner Fiala's recommendation that we extend the COPCN, as we have for this past month, for the next year -- and, again, it makes no sense. If you can extend it for a month, you necessarily have to extend it for a year because the facts and circumstances haven't changed -- and then work through the understanding of the law, and maybe the county will see reason and the other independent agencies in the cities will see reason and recognize that we must do what the statute provides. And unless the law changes, that's what we're faced with. And maybe the statute will be changed in the interim. But I think Commissioner Fiala has proposed the correct solution in the public's interest. And as to ALS and BLS -- and there is no question that to save a life -- and when we provide ALS -- when we provide emergency services, it is to the worst-case scenario, which is death. And if ALS is needed, we have to be able to provide it, and the county does not have the money and does not have the staff and does not have the equipment to provide ALS to the level necessary to save lives. And it's of great concern. We can't do it without any of the independent districts. We can't do it without the cities. We need everybody involved. And Commissioner Nance is right that there are areas which are not getting the same response times. They're getting the same level of service, the same care, but they are not receiving the same response times to incidents because we don't have the equipment and we don't have the personnel and we don't have the stations and we don't have the money to get it. And Big Corkscrew is one such district, and North Collier will provide that response time to that area by increasing the staffing and the equipment. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you so much. Now -- COMMISSIONER HILLER: But we are preventing that from happening by denying North Collier a COPCN that incorporates Big Corkscrew. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Commissioner Hiller -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: One of the -- COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: -- are you saying the other districts don't have the ALS services that we have? Is that what I heard you say? Page 29 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER HILLER: No, that's not what I said. What I said is that the other districts operating under an interlocal agreement without having their own ALS COPCN, without their own ALS state license are doing so illegally. And what Commissioner Lombardo said is that each of the council members or commissioners of those cities or districts are facing personal liability in the event something happens to a patient who is provided ALS care under such an interlocal agreement and then they pass or are paralyzed. And as -- so just so you understand, cardiac arrest, four minutes -- four minutes, and then the countdown -- the countdown goes to 10 minutes and you're dead, and I just pray to God you never need that. Now, let me just say one last thing on medical information sharing. I have a question. Does the Lee Memorial system -- does the Trauma Center have the same system that Collier County EMS has for information? I'm just curious. CHIEF KOPKA: For the record, Walter Kopka. Yes, they have access to our patient care reporting system. Lee Memorial does -- COMMISSIONER HILLER: No, no. They have a different system though, right? CHIEF KOPKA: Yes. COMMISSIONER HILLER: They're on a different system. CHIEF KOPKA: A patient care reporting system, sure. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Different than our system? CHIEF KOPKA: Correct. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Just like North Collier's system is different than our system. Do you have a business-affiliate agreement with Lee Memorial? CHIEF KOPKA: Yes, ma'am. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Yeah. So the very same situation as between Collier County EMS and Lee Memorial -- and just so people understand, if there is a trauma where someone has to be helicoptered from Collier County to the Lee Trauma Center, there has to be an exchange of information, and it's no different than if there's an exchange of information between Collier EMS's paramedic and North Naples' paramedic, because you've got two systems here; you have two systems between Collier County and EMS and Lee. Page 30 January 25, 2016 So to make the argument that somehow, you know, everyone has to have the same system is a red herring. CHIEF KOPKA: Let me clarify it. Is very different. When North Naples gets on scene of that call and starts to render care, that information is not recorded in our system. When the ambulance gets on scene, that information's recorded. It's sent to a cloud. The MedFlight crew picks up that information from the ambulance, and all the information goes to Lee Memorial with the patient. So Lee Memorial has access to everything that EMS did for that patient except for what North Naples did for that patient. They don't have access to that. That's not in that same system. CHAIRMAN FIALA: And which is -- I'm going to just say, as I introduce Commissioner -- COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: I haven't finished. COMMISSIONER HILLER: I want to -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: -- Commissioner Henning, because he's still waiting also. I just wanted to say this all started many, many years ago, as long as -- as far back as I can remember, and I've been on this commission since the year 2000. And all that time we've wanted to, in the end, have a combined -- a unified system between fire and EMS, and we've been heading toward that. We have been pushing toward that so that in the end that's what we have. And I think right now the argument is that it's difficult for people to give up what they have in order to bring together a system that will serve all of our residents in the same manner and in the same capacity, and I think that's what you see. Commissioner Henning? COMMISSIONER HENNING: Thank you. I'm not ready to move on to do an extension until we deal with this other issue on top of that. I still want to stay on No. 5. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. However, I do have some feelings on No. 6, but I really want to understand some of the things that the fire commissioners have stated. Commissioner Lombardo, you stated that the statute says it's illegal for the fire department to enter into an interlocal agreement for ALS service. Hang on. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: That's not exactly what I said, but Page 31 January 25, 2016 that's all right. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. That's my understanding. I know the Florida Attorney General recognizes interlocal agreements with fire departments. There's one out there. Several attorneys have opined, outside of the county, that it is legal. My question is exactly what statutes are you referring to and exactly what does it say? COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: We've provided that information. And let's make sure we understand each other. First of all, the Attorney General is not the court of last resort when it comes to determining liability. The Attorney General can render opinions, and those opinions are not necessarily dispositive or binding on the final outcome. What the county is asking us to do, because the statute -- and, Laura, if you will, give me the statute site. The statute provides that we have to be on equal footing, essentially, when we talk about interlocal agreements. So we don't -- we are not on equal footing, and therein lies the problem, and that's what opens the door for personal liability. Interestingly enough, if we look at our neighbor, Lee County, Lee County, 15 independent -- Lee County -- COMMIS SIONER HENNING: No, no. It's a simple question. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: And I'm giving you a simple answer. Lee County has 15 independent fire districts. Not a single one operates under an interlocal agreement. Every single one has their own COPCN. You're asking us to take on -- you're asking us to violate the statute. COMMISSIONER HENNING: What's the statute? What is the statute? What's it for? MS. DONALDSON: Madam Chair? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes. Thank you. MS. DONALDSON: The statute is Section 163.01, and it basically states that the governments have to have the same level of authority, and the agreement cannot give additional authority to one government that they don't have otherwise. There's case law specifically not related to COPCN but related to other additional authorities. I will tell you, since I have had the privilege of watching your County Commissioner meetings over the last couple months, many, many years ago when I was asked -- I got a phone call asking to help with an existing interlocal Page 32 January 25, 2016 agreement, never looked --just said we need you to fix a couple provisions. It wasn't until September 8th, and I will tell you I was at the hospital in the emergency room with my eight-year-old. And Commissioner Hiller made the comment about -- that you can't do more than what you can, and the next day I called and said, I need to look into this issue. And at that point we did the research as it relates to the interlocal agreement. One of the options that we've given to the county staff was entering into an interlocal agreement to put a county EMS on each vehicle of the fire district. The district currently has the authority to allow someone to go onto a fire truck. So that at that point is like-like, and it's really just related to ALS, because Chapter 401 and 191 state specifically that fire districts have to do -- can provide advanced life support under -- pursuant to Chapter 401 and under a COPCN. So I think that's kind of what the difference is. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Well, okay. So does it say that it cannot enter into an interlocal agreement? MS. DONALDSON: Madam Chair? What we have said, and one of the options that we -- several options that we gave to the county was if we -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: I heard you said that. MS. DONALDSON: If we had a COPCN, we could enter -- well, there's different types of interlocal agreements, but as it relates to ALS services, if we had a COPCN then, yes, the district could enter into an interlocal agreement to address many of these issues dealing with credentialing, training, and all of that, yes. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. On the same topic, has the Court ever challenged an ALS interlocal agreement between a county and any other provider? MS. DONALDSON: Madam Chair? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Uh-huh. MS. DONALDSON: I have not found a case on that at all. And for your information, our lawsuit doesn't even get into that issue. Our lawsuit's related to the board's decision. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. Well,just one comment on that topic. You have an interlocal agreement. Challenge it. Let's see what the Court says. Page 33 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Yeah. But on your -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: Another question -- another question. Commissioner Crossan, I appreciate your experience, and now I understand that you work for Marco Island Fire Department. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Yeah. COMMISSIONER HENNING: As a paramedic? Firefighter? COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: No, as an EMT -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: As an EMT. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: -- but I know the role of the paramedic. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. Does each paramedic experience hands-on experience? How many paramedics do you have in Marco Island; do you know? COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Chief, what's the number -- Chief Murphy -- about? CHIEF MURPHY: Twenty-eight. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Twenty-eight? COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Yeah. COMMISSIONER HENNING: And how many residents? What is it -- do you have 40,000 on Marco Island? COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Yeah. COMMISSIONER HENNING: How often do they get to use that experience? COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: We'd have to pull the protocols, but I have seen them use the experience, and, you know, there might be people out there -- go ahead, Chief. I'll have Chief-- COMMISSIONER HENNING: On a day-to-day basis? CHIEF MURPHY: If you're going to direct questions to my department, I'd rather they be deferred to me. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Just your -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Chief Murphy, if you need to speak, you need to speak into a microphone, if you're answering Mr. Crossan's question, so we have it on record. Thank you. CHIEF MURPHY: Good morning. For the record, I'm Mike Murphy. I'm the Fire Rescue Chief of Marco Island. And the answer to your question is we have 28 paramedics that ride on Page 34 January 25, 2016 our units every day, on all units. And those units respond to 3,500 calls, of which about 2,600 are -- or 2,200 are medically related. Our units -- our paramedics arrive on the scene in some cases 20 minutes before an EMS, not on a great number of calls. But on ALS calls, as was discussed, my paramedics arriving on an engine have the capability of administering for asthma patients, for a seizing child, for -- and in particular what we're finding out is trauma alerts related to seniors where advanced life support has to be put in place where that patient's going to be flown out of that facility and flown to the Lee Trauma Memorial Center. Our personnel -- and, for the record, our personnel are phenomenal personnel both in the county, in North Collier. I've been on incidents all the over this county. And we keep talking about BLS. And I believe over -- if you ask for the data, you'll find that -- and I won't quote the county, but probably 60 percent of the data informs that it's an ALS call. And when that paramedic arrives in a high-rise structure, there are times when we could be 11 minutes just from the time we receive the call till we arrive on the scene. That ALS intervention is critical to that patient all the time, whether it comes on a paramedic or whether it comes on an ambulance. And we keep forgetting about the patient here. And the critical issue here is you're about to take 14 units, ALS units, off the road that support us. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. Here's my point. Marvin needs to provide that information about a lot of data that -- you know, calls, what type of calls, how many paramedics, how many firefighters, so on and so forth. My point is, and the conclusion that it comes to, when you have more, it doesn't mean it's better. And there's many articles on there on that particular topic. It's the -- it's not only the educational experience. It's the hands-on experience. And that's why I asked you, Commissioner Crossan, is -- and I'm glad that North Naples has a lot of experience, but what I'm looking for is that day-to-day hands-on experience. So, Commissioner Feder, I'd be happy to entertain putting a paramedic on your engine but, however, no different than we do anywhere else in the county. No more, no less. And it's about the paramedic -- Collier County paramedic, our standard of response time. And, I mean, if you want to work that out, I'm sure we could work it out without an ALS or a COPCN, or we could do an ALS and put your guy on an Page 35 January 25, 2016 ambulance. But I understand that that didn't work out. Commissioner Lombardo gave us the history on that. I think that can be worked on to where your paramedic can do patient care instead of driving a vehicle. COMMISSIONER FEDER: What I would say in response, if I can is, first of all, we're talking about reducing the level of care rather than maintaining. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Well, that's an opinion. COMMISSIONER FEDER: That's the issue of concern. Now, what I said is -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: It's an opinion. COMMISSIONER FEDER: -- if you want to put an EMS on every one of our vehicles, which is what we have today with ALS, on each one of them, then we could work that. Now, again, I think that all of this data at 3,000 feet that shows I have twice as many mutual aids given as we received, which tells me the data has some flaws on it -- but I think it's good that we're starting to become data driven, and we need to. But the bottom line still becomes, for five years we've had very, very good relations with EMS, very good response to the important people, and that is the people that needed services out in the field, and that is about to be very significantly reduced at an additional cost to the taxpayers for you to put in some overtime units, and I'm not sure I understand why. Again, it's nice to talk about concepts of structure and education. And as Commissioner Fiala pointed out, we can do that over the next six, nine, 10 months, a year, while we don't reduce what has been working for the last five years. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: And let me just address real quick, Tom, your -- my observation of more paramedics. When I started in the service -- and I started with Jeff Page and Walter back in the day, I always remember a male and a female paramedic, for discretion, you know, whether we had a male or female patient. It worked wonderfully. It then became the pit-crew mentality. And the pit-crew mentality is basically like when you watch Nascar and you have everybody working quickly to resolve the death of the heart muscle, and I've seen that operate. And when you have, like, three or four paramedics on scene and they know exactly what they're doing, rather than one paramedic with all that weight on his shoulders, Page 36 January 25, 2016 and then you've got three or four EMTs surrounding him -- now, there is a place for the EMT. I'm the one to go in and start compressions and everything else. But when you have those medics around you and you have those firefighter medics around you who don't recognize each other, it works wonderfully, and I've seen -- I've seen your employees run a pit crew with our employees as subordinates, and I saw the person's life saved multiple times. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: And if I may add -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. Now,just a minute. Just a minute. I let you interrupt a lot, but we -- COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I have not been interrupting. I'm interrupting you now. CHAIRMAN FIALA: We'll go back to Mr. -- I wanted to go back -- oh -- COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: He's not here. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay -- to Mr. Henning, because he was still involved, and Mr. Hoffman has -- was also going to speak before Mr. Crossan. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Madam Chair, may I digress a minute? This was on the floor. MS. COTHRAN: It's mine. It has the statute right off the Florida -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. So go ahead Mr. Hoffman -- or Commissioner Hoffman, excuse me. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Yes, thank you. Surprisingly enough, I agree with Commissioner Feder, and I agree with Commissioner Nance. From Commissioner Feder's point of view, I think we've been hearing a lot of anecdotal evidence by both sides, and it makes it very difficult to really come to any kind of a conclusion. From Commissioner Nance's perspective, I don't think we're going to be able to resolve any issues today. But I do have a question for Commissioner Hiller. Are you suggesting that the other fire districts have a CO -- should have a COCPN (sic), and if they don't have a COCPN, the directors are liable? And my position would be, if we have a COCPN, everybody should have a COCPN for the similar reason. And if we don't get one, nobody should get one. So let's be uniform going forward and go decide on the COCPN. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Thank you, Commissioner Hoffman. COMMISSIONER HANSON: COPCN. Page 37 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: COPCN. Thank you for correcting me. COMMISSIONER HILLER: And, you know, the question you raise I want to clarify. It's the law. It's not a question of whether we want everyone or no one. The law -- COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: What is the law? COMMISSIONER HILLER: The law is clear. The law says that if North Collier is to provide ALS services, that it must stand before the county at a public hearing and provide the evidence as set out by the statute to show that it qualifies to be approved for a COPCN -- COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: I understand. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Let me answer -- and that with that COPCN it can apply to the state for a state license to provide ALS services. And that is true for North Collier. That is true for every fire district in this county. That is true for the municipalities. That is true for any organization that wants to provide ALS. And it doesn't have to be a political entity. It can actually be a hospital. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: This is -- COMMISSIONER HILLER: But it also -- the statute -- let me -- I'd like to finish answering the question, because it's a very important question, and I am grateful that you ask it, because it's the essence of-- it's the heart of this discussion. It also provides that every licensee that provides ALS under that statute shall have its own medical director, and the statute also provides that there will be a uniform standard of care and that there will be a uniform minimum standard of training for all those licensed paramedics who provide ALS. So in answer to your question, is it a zero-sum game all or nothing? The answer to that is it's what the law provides. And the law provides that if Marco or Naples or NCH or Greater Naples Fire Control wants to provide ALS in Collier County, they have to apply for a COPCN, and then after being approved for that COPCN by the Board of County Commissioners, they have to apply to the state for a license. And if those agencies, once they have their COPCN and their state license, want to enter into an interlocal agreement with the county to provide mutual aid given that now both entities can provide that same service, ALS service, they can do so. Page 38 January 25, 2016 CHAIRMAN FIALA: Now, Commissioners, everyone, right now we're going to take a 10-minute break for our court reporter because her fingers are about to drop off. So I tell you that we're going to adjourn or, I'm sorry, we're going to recess for 10 minutes. See you back at about quarter to. (A brief recess was had.) CHAIRMAN FIALA: May the meeting please come to order. Please take your seats. Thank you. First and foremost, I want to ask all of the commissioners seated in this area to please make sure, when you're speaking, to speak into the microphone so the court reporter can get all the information and it can be recorded for later usage. The second thing is, we discussed with the County Manager and a few other people right here that we -- it looks like the meeting is going to go on a lot longer than we thought, and rather than end at 1:30 and cut everybody off, I've asked the County Manager to order some lunch for those of us sitting here, because sometimes people need to eat in order to not get crabby and have a headache, right? So he's going to -- COMMISSIONER NANCE: I think it's too late. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: No, it's not. COMMISSIONER NANCE: I think it's way too late for that. CHAIRMAN FIALA: He's ordered that. And so in one hour we will break for a lunch period. So anybody in the audience who wants to go out and have a lunch, that's fine. We'll continue on. It would be nice if we could get past this first No. 5 in order to get to No. 6 and then to public comment. I would love to do that unless -- unless -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: Madam Chair, I think -- let's go on that basis, and let's continue on. People can come back to the issues they're going to, if they will, but let's move on to No. 6. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm going to ask -- for just a moment, though. I'd like to have a comment. And I recognize you want to take a break. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Could somebody close that back door. COMMISSIONER FEDER: It is cold. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yeah, it's freezing in here. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: This boils down to a simple issue, Page 39 January 25, 2016 which is what we cannot and -- can and cannot do under the law. The law is very, very clear. It's unequivocal. We cannot -- we can't base our decision based upon the fact that we may have done it wrong in the past because -- nor am I willing to base our decision on the idea that somehow we'll take the risk of being sued, because that risk is on this commission right here and not on that commission, personally, quite frankly. By the way, my belief is the AGOs, when it talks about other issues, takes the position that that statute stands for the prospect that you are -- you're looking at equal rights. That's what this is about. To get into an interlocal agreement, you have to have agencies that are of the same style or have the same rights. The other thing though, the other comment that was made that I find very concerning -- and let me take a step back. I don't even agree with Commissioner Feder when it comes to putting a Collier County EMS paramedic on each one of our vehicles, because I would tell you that I would expect that that paramedic then meet the same standards that we have set, because we have higher training standards. And I would expect that paramedic to meet the standards we have set so that we are sure that we are taking care of our constituents. And the last thing I'm going to say, I've listened to the less-is-more argument for a while now. I am -- maybe I'm a little stodgy, maybe I'm just getting old. I'm a curmudgeon, but, you know, for as long as I can remember, more is more. Less is not more. This is not a circumstance where we put less paramedics out in the field and somehow -- and the idea is that they're going to get greater experience because they're getting to deal with more hands-on events. I don't think that's the case. And I think the team approach is where it's at, and I think these paramedics are quite busy as it is. And the idea that you're going to take paramedics out of the field to give other paramedics more experience, that makes zero sense to me. In essence, it's like telling the Sheriffs Office that you cannot give an officer a gun who hasn't fired that gun in an actual circumstance where he's shooting at someone who is an aggressor. That's not how it works. We have training. We have high-quality training. That's what it is. It's about conditioning those paramedics. So taking 100 paramedics out of service four days from now in the middle Page 40 January 25, 2016 of season with hundreds of thousands of people here, here's what happens: Those paramedics now won't have experience. You're going to get them rusty. By the time we wake up and say, oh, my gosh, this is a horrendous situation -- and it will be when someone dies -- those paramedics now have been out of the circuit for a while. To me -- and I'm going to go back to what I said from the beginning -- the proper way to have done this -- if you-all have a different opinion on how we're going to do this, you should have given us a heads-up. You should have given us time. That's the appropriate way to do this. And so given the fact that it's clear you want a different approach, then here's what you do: You extend us for the year, you let us work through that, and we'll get through all of-- what I hear are technical issues that do not seem insurmountable: Exchanging financial -- or excuse me -- personal information, medical records. Those things are not insurmountable. You work already with Lee County. I don't get this. To me, we have a responsibility to constituents. And hear me out. We're North Collier. We're no longer North Naples. So from where I sit, I'm not about to stand for an answer that means the people who live in the North Naples service area get better service than the people who live in Big Island -- Big Corkscrew Island. That's not fair. That's not what they agreed to. The simple answer is extend it for a year. Let the professionals who understand the technical issues resolve them. We don't know that. I mean, Commissioner Nance and I -- I like Commissioner Nance, but Commissioner Nance and I aren't going to be able to figure out how to exchange the medical data necessary between the districts. That's not an answer we're going to be able to come to. I mean, it's just not. Let the pros handle that. They seem to be able to work together well. There's your simple answer so we don't have to be here all day. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Lombardo, thank you very much for your comments. And Commissioner Nance, and then I want to ask after -- I'll certainly listen to you first. I want to ask then, and I want you all to be thinking about this, are we going to come up with a decision on this now, or shall we move on to the next? But first Commissioner Nance. COMMISSIONER NANCE: I would like to -- there's been a lot of Page 41 January 25, 2016 discussion about legality here as a reason for not moving forward and addressing some of these issues. I would like to hear the County Attorney opine on his perspective on the legality of an interlocal agreement as a methodology for cooperative work. MR. KLATZKOW: I believe you can do it by interlocal agreement. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can you speak in to the mike, please. MR. KLATZKOW: I believe you can do it by interlocal agreement. We have done it by interlocal agreement. We're not the only county that has done this as well. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. Okay. Is that the answer? COMMISSIONER NANCE: Well, it seems like we're going to disagree on that, and I guess, you know, we're going to go to court to make that determination, and -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER NANCE: -- frankly, you know, I've spent the last three years, the first three years of my service to the county, being told by personnel from North Naples Fire and then North Collier Fire that they would never agree to some of these things. So I don't see any reason to expect that that's going to change. And, you know, if we can't -- if we can't agree that we can be more effective -- I think there is absolutely no reason to think that we cannot be more effective than we are today, and we certainly can be more efficient. So that's the two things you've got to have in any operational endeavor. You have to be effective, and you have to be efficient. And I think there is clear evidence that a uniform system of emergency response is going to do both of those things. But what you have to have is you have to have the will to do that, and I don't think -- I think we have a party here that does not have the will to join everyone else to do this. They want to rely on a law or what they say is an interpretation of the law to find an excuse not to do so. People always find an excuse to do what they want to do or they don't want to do. So I think we're -- I think we should move ahead and just start taking some votes and figure out how we're going to move forward. COMMISSIONER BURKE: Madam Chair, clarification. We're talking about it's the law as if it's settled law. And from what I just heard from the Page 42 January 25, 2016 County Attorney is he doesn't agree with that; am I right? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes. But you know what, let's say it, every lawyer can read the same sentence, and each one will come out with a different answer, and we all know that. COMMISSIONER BURKE: Okay. CHAIRMAN FIALA: So no matter -- you know, I don't think you can even base it on "it's the law," because it's interpretation. COMMISSIONER BURKE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN FIALA: So let's see now. Do you want to come up with a determination with an answer on this Question 5, or shall we move on to the next one? COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: I think the critical -- the critical issue is whether or not the cou -- I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Go ahead. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Whether or not North Collier will be granted a COCPN (sic), and I think if we -- we just take a vote on it, and I think that will decide everything. Because without -- they don't seem to be willing to negotiate. They've drawn a line in the sand. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: And so I think we're at that point. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Let me hear from the other commissioners. Do you agree with that? The commissioners -- the Collier County commissioners and then the fire commissioners. Yes, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER HENNING: I'm not sure that we can take a vote, but I think it's spot on of the real issue is the COPCN, ALS interlocal agreement. And I think I've heard from the majority of the board it's the COPCN; however, I'm hearing from my colleagues it's an interlocal agreement providing ALS service, so... CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Maybe we can hear some legal from the county -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Gentleman, I'm sorry. I don't know your name. COMMISSIONER McGOWAN: Commissioner McGowan. I agree with Commissioner Lombardo that, you know, we should probably Page 43 January 25, 2016 work through these issues with a continuation of the current system maybe over the next six to 12 months. I disagree with continuing to go to court between the two government agencies over this particular issue. I agree with you, Commissioner Fiala, lawyers can agree or disagree on any sentence. I disagree with Commissioner Lombardo in terms of the Attorney General's opinion. I think the Attorney General should be asked about this particular legal issue and give an opinion on it, and we all should live by whatever that particular opinion is. If we can't have an interlocal agreement, then it should operate the opposite. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: The problem with that -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Now, let me see. I've got a bunch of people here waiting to speak. COMMISSIONER BURKE: Let's do it. CHAIRMAN FIALA: And if we're not going to come up with an answer, I would like to -- now, there's another item here, which is No. 6, and you probably all know it, to extend the existing COPCN. So we've been discussing that. I think we've been combining those two. And if we -- if we're going to just say the same thing over and over and we're both -- and we already know what everybody's going to say and it's no secret, maybe we should just go on to the public comments so the public has their right to speak before lunch arrives, okay. And with that -- and I hope you-all are in agreement. So let me just move on. Mr. Naegele. MR. NAEGELE: Thank you, Commissioner Fiala, Commissioners -- Fire Commissioners, Board of County Commissioners, thank you very much. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Mr. Naegele, let me hold you for one second. MR. NAEGELE: Certainly. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Is there a timekeeper here? MS. FREIBURG: Yes. CHAIRMAN FIALA: You're going to keep the time? MS. FREIBURG: Yes. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes, three minutes. Thank you. MR. NAEGELE: Surely. Thank you. Yes, Bob Naegele, 7993 Via Vecchia, resident of North Naples. Formerly North Naples Fire District, now Page 44 January 25, 2016 NCRFRD. And I'd like to just say in the big picture we have -- 66 percent of our calls are rescue and medical, and 2.2 percent are fire. Now, there's a group in between that are good-intention calls and false alarms, that type of thing. So those are the two items that we're dealing -- seem to be dealing with. Now, in my estimation,just having been an observer for some time, it seems to me that fire is trying to control medical, and I don't believe that's prudent, I don't believe it's practical, and it's terribly political. We need to move, as Commissioner Nance had said, toward a unified emergency response. I think we have the March 15th straw ballot possibility. I don't know whether my commission has supported that or not, but I think that's a valid -- valid thing to do. And a unified emergency response under the county medical director seems to me to be a good solution. Laying it over for a year, it's likely that all of you will be replaced in the next election, very likely, and it's likely that you're going to have great turnover in the next election, so kicking the -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: I'm not going to be here. MR. NAEGELE: You're not going to be here. So we need to solve this problem sooner rather than later, and kicking it down the road is not a good option. I'll read one thing I received from Stan Farb, and he said -- who is a doctor living in Pelican Bay. He said, I know that PB -- Pelican Bay Property Owners Association, of which I am the president, is quite familiar with the North Naples Emergency Service controversy. If there was ever a case of"it ain't broke, don't fix it," this is a prime example. This matter is too serious to be left to the whims of our commissioners. I in no way want to demean our fire department, but I do not want my emergency medical care to be provided by someone whose training and experience relates to managing fires. This is a serious matter, and I urge the PBPOA, that's our group, to inform to mobilize (sic) the Pelican Bay community about the political shenanigans that threaten to dilute our superb emergency medical emergency care. My letter also -- she sent a letter to Commissioner Hiller's office. Page 45 January 25, 2016 So I would just say thank you very much. I know you're working on it. I respect the sincerity of both sides on this issue, and thank you very much. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. The next speaker is Janet Vasey, and Mr. Marvin Eastman will follow, and so would you -- MR. EASTMAN: I'll pass. CHAIRMAN FIALA: You'll pass, okay. After that Jim Horner. If you'd like to come and stand up here -- MR. HORNER: I'll pass. CHAIRMAN FIALA: -- move it on. You'll pass? MR. HORNER: I'll pass. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. And the next one is George Danz. And if you would come up and stand here ready to speak. Okay. I don't even see him. Janet, go ahead. MS. VASEY: Okay. Janet Vasey, for the record. I'm a citizen of the North Collier Fire District, and I am speaking just as a citizen. I have some comments based on what I've heard here today, and the real issue -- it gets fuzzied up a lot, but the real issue is, is this, as an interlocal agreement, legal or not? All of the rest of the stuff is -- falls under that decision. And I would submit that you need to know that the emperor has no clothes. This legal argument is bogus. It's -- you can look at the -- the Section 163.3171, and it clearly says that these joint agreements entered into under the authority of this section be liberally, broadly, and flexibly construed to facilitate intergovernmental cooperation between cities and counties. To make it very restrictive is to do so intentionally. It allows you a broad interpretation. Our attorney says it's legal. I believe it's legal. Everybody else who's entered into these agreements believes it's legal. North Naples, when they had an interlocal agreement, believed it was legal. It was only when they no longer had the option of a COPCN and were given only the option of an interlocal agreement that now they said that this is illegal. So, you know, that's what's -- that's what's driving this whole thing. Commissioner Lombardo says that lives were saved because North Collier Fire District had a COPCN. Well, that's not exactly true. Lives were saved -- would have been saved under an interlocal agreement just as well. They were Page 46 January 25, 2016 saved because North Collier participated with their fire paramedics. So it doesn't have to be a COPCN. It just has to be your willingness to participate. And I think the public should understand that the county is not taking away the authority of you to have your fire paramedics participate. You are the ones that are doing that by a very narrow interpretation and your decision not to let them. So when Commissioner Hiller says the public safety and welfare may well be compromised, it's not being compromised by the county. It's being compromised by North Collier Fire District. It's up to you to decide whether you want to continue to participate or not. Patient care reporting system. I think it's outrageous that you do not provide that information all these years to the EMS. Why wouldn't you want to tell what procedures you performed on patients, what medications were given? And then if there's anything wrong, if there's anything that needs correction, there's a record. It seems crazy that that wouldn't be done. So -- does that mean my time? Okay. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. George Danz followed by Doug Fee. Doug, you can get up there and stand in line. Go ahead. MR. DANZ: Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name is George Danz. I live at 813 Charlemagne Boulevard, Naples, Florida. A little history. Before I retired and moved to Naples, I retired from Broward County where I was director of emergency services and later the trauma management agency for the county. In Broward County we have 21 fire departments all with their own certificates, all doing advanced life support, all doing transport. They work under the common medical protocols for the county that they've all agreed upon. Each of those departments has or shares a common -- has or shares a medical director, and they work together with those protocols. I find it a little bit unconceivable that a department or an agency that's had her certificate for five years and has no complaints against that agency, why that certificate is being taken away. It's got to be pure politics, I guess. And in all honestly, Commissioner Hanson brought up about that EMS committee that they had that includes doctors and representatives from most of the fire departments, from the Trauma Center in Lee County, et cetera. The Page 47 January 25, 2016 only representative that is not there is Dr. Tober. But I think whatever the political issue is, you have a system where you have an advanced life support provider that has a certificate and is working under common protocols that are agreeable to both the county and the -- and the district, and I see no reason why -- or can't believe why that certificate is being taken away. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. Doug Fee, followed by Paul Anderson. Mr. Anderson, would you come and be ready. Thank you. MR. FEE: For the record, Doug Fee. I live in North Naples. If the emperor has no clothes, it's because the -- certain areas of this county are paying for service for other areas of the county. North Naples has, over the years, helped out a lot of different areas in the county, and I know it's both ways. But the data that's been presented in meetings that I've attended, North Naples has definitely done its share, and it will continue to do its share if it's allowed to do it, okay. Over the last four or five years, the county itself has prepared spreadsheets that show zones in particular areas of the county that do not have the response times, and a few of those are in North Naples. I've watched that data. Today I don't believe we have that solved. The county itself is underfunded in the EMS area. And until the county provides the dollars to shore up the EMS system, it needs to have the cooperation of all these fire districts, unless you go ahead and tax us to provide a level service. So am I for this COPCN? I'm for what we've been doing. Please extend it if you do nothing else. Get the legal questions answered. Each one of you have a duty to the voters. And if you take these paramedics, these firefighters, away from the system for the fact that there is not a legal answer (sic) that's been answered, that is not the right thing to do. I respect each one of you sitting there. You represent the voters. Please make a decision today to keep the status quo until you can work through it, because you will only be hurting the constituents of each one of you. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Mr. Paul Anderson followed by Jeff Parnu? Would -- Jeff Parnu? I probably pronounced the name wrong, but I can't -- DR. PANOZZO: Dr. Panozzo. I'm going to waive. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Waive, okay. Then after that is Paul, starts with an Page 48 January 25, 2016 H. DR. HOBAICA: Hobaica. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Pardon me? DR. HOBAICA: Hobaica. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Hobaica? DR. HOBAICA: Yes. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Would he please come forward. DR. HOBAICA: Sure. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Go ahead, Mr. Anderson. CHIEF ANDERSON: Paul Anderson, fire chief and district manager, Immokalee Fire Control District. I was hoping someone else would read the statute so I wouldn't have to take up my three minutes doing it, but I believe, for the benefit of the audience and the citizens, it's necessary. Florida Statute 163.01(4), ifs called the Florida Interlocal Cooperation Act of 1969. It's been revised multiple times since then. A public agency of this state may exercise jointly with any other public agency of the state -- of any other state or of the U.S. government, any power, privilege or authority, which such agencies share in common and which each might exercise separately. That's the key point. In order to -- in order for a fire department to exercise the provision of advanced life support, paramedic services separately from anybody else, it requires two things, a license from the State of Florida Department of Health and a COPCN issued by the county. That's the key issue. The only way to reconcile the differences in the legal opinions is to get an official interpretation from the State Attorney General. This has never been challenged. It is apparently being challenged now. Immokalee Fire District, my commissioner was here. She got called out and had to leave, requested that I speak on her behalf as well. Immokalee Fire District is requesting that the County Commission extend the COPCN for North Collier at least until this can be resolved and at least until after we get an official interpretation from the State Attorney General to do this. Immokalee Fire Control District, our goal is to be providing ALS from Immokalee fire engines with Immokalee fire paramedics by the end of the year. So if it's not resolved here, you're going to be sitting here with me again when Page 49 January 25, 2016 we try to do that. Seventy-one percent of the paramedics nationwide are employed by fire departments. In Florida the percentage of paramedics employed by fire departments is way above the national average. The majority of those are riding on non-transport fire apparatus, not transport units. It's ludicrous to think that a paramedic cannot keep up his training and skills unless he rides in the back of an ambulance. There's paramedics throughout Florida, throughout the nation, who proved that wrong. You can -- you can get -- an example of that, the CLINCON conference in Florida is the EMS conference. They have an ALS competition routinely won by fire-based paramedics. Fire Rescue East Conference, through the Florida Fire Chiefs Association, has an ALS competition won by fire-based paramedics. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you, Chief Anderson. I appreciate that. Thank you for being here. Paul Hobaica. Somebody turn down the air conditioner. It's gotten so cold in here. I don't know -- COMMISSIONER CHAO: You mean turn it up, not down. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Boy, I hope that they even it out a little bit so it isn't quite so chilly, whoever did that. Thank you. And after Mr. Hobaica. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Dr. Hobaica. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Dr. Hobaica? DR. HOBAICA: Doctor. CHAIRMAN FIALA: I'm sorry -- DR. HOBAICA: No, that's okay. CHAIRMAN FIALA: -- for massacring your name. There's -- I think it's Brian some -- I can't even pronounce that. MR. DUNN: I'll waive that. Brian Dunn. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Then there's Dr. Joseph Doyle. Okay. DR. HOBAICA: Yeah. For full disclosure, Paul Hobaica. I am the district physician, North Collier, my eighth year. I came on board when they didn't have any real director oversight. And I started in the capacity of wellness Page 50 January 25, 2016 and occupational health, and then it just drifted slowly into, over the years with the team that was built, to advise on medical issues, including what's the ALS program. So I feel like I'm an expert in offering an opinion here. We have one of the strongest programs from a teaching perspective, yet it never gets discussed. Not once have I personally ever been asked to sit around a table and offer -- and asked my opinion on the way things are going. I also work at Arthrex for other -- for full disclosure. And it was mentioned earlier, we do some training there. So I've dug into the community more than the average physician, especially in terms of my relationship with first responders. I was a previous paramedic up in the Boston area in the '80s. But I've got to tell you, this is a bad deal, bad deal for the county, bad deal for North Naples residents. I live in North Naples. Really, tactically, managerially, it's just an awful setup, especially if the license gets pulled. I don't believe that anybody in this room has a doctorate in health care except Dr. Panozzo and myself and yet, again, the decisions to run one of the largest medical practices in the county, which is the EMS system, isn't discussed on how it's managed medically from the top. So we'd be more than willing -- I'm more than willing to sit on any kind of a committee, advisory board and really advise on training and oversight, which has to be done. It's unlikely any medical practice doesn't have advisors from the medical perspective. Yet again, it doesn't get discussed. So I'm a little bit embarrassed at the decision to do something as important as this for the county. We're not even referencing the physician input and what the experts in standards of care are and what's the best practices out there in the country. And if the trend is that medical is the bulk of the response out there, don't you think we should have the best system out there available? And if it's accumulative -- if there's opportunity for accumulative effort to put the minds together from the doctoring and disseminate that information down in the field, wonderful opportunity to do this and get this done right. I agree, postpone this, give this a leave of-- a time to vet this a little bit better. This is a rush to do something that is disastrous to the community and for those of us that know the impact. And I'll give you one example why this is important. December 12th, I was at the soccer field at Vineyards, and the calls came out -- started coming Page 51 January 25, 2016 out. The ambulance in that district went on a call, the ambulance in Immokalee Road/75 went on a call 30 seconds later. A minute after that, the Pelican Bay ambulance went on a call, then the unit up in the Bonita Vanderbilt Drive went on a call down in Pelican Bay. We had no ambulances. And until (sic) the fifth or sixth call came in, they pulled an ambulance from -- it was Golden Gate and, I want to say, Santa Barbara and Radio Road, to come up to Bentley Village. So if you don't think there's a need to have stopgap measures in place to have these wonderful paramedics continue doing their skills -- it is an utter disaster to yank that license away until this is properly vetted and the experts have weighed in. And, finally, the training that we have and undergo, you're not always out there putting breathing tubes in people's lungs. I haven't done one in 10 years, but I think I'm pretty qualified to do one if I had to. It's more the thought process that people have when they are out there in the field. If they're a paramedic and they're thinking -- and they're operating at a basic level, great, but their physiology and thought process is at a much advanced level. Keep it going. Don't make the mistake. Don't leave here until it's solved. Thank you. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you very much. Dr. Joseph Doyle and then Sandy Doyle. DR. DOYLE: Yes. She's ceded time to me. Dr. Joseph Doyle. I do have a medical degree as well as an MBA, a master's of public health, and a master's of public administration, so I cover the water fountain when it comes to business and the government. And what we have here is really a problem with -- it's all about power, and it's all about money. And, you know, you had the Uber discussion. We did deregulation back in December, and we had the professor who came in and talked about economic deregulation versus safety deregulation. I think that was an important distinction. What we have here is level of service versus level of care. Because I hear that being thrown around here a lot today. We have efficiency versus effectiveness. I don't see any data. I mean, we've seen some, you know -- I'd like to see, what is the outcome for the care? What is the outcome for the Page 52 January 25, 2016 service? We're paying a lot up here. North Naples -- I live in North Naples. North Naples is getting soaked by this fire department. Now, if-- you know, let's look at an example. If you need 50 paramedics to save 20 lives -- we supposedly have 100 paramedics. How many more lives are they saving? If we get another 50 paramedics, how many more lives are they saving? It's the same thing when you study for an exam. You study two hours to get a B; four hours, which is double, to get an A. You need six hours or maybe eight hours to get the A plus. Are we willing to be spending all that extra money to save one more life? I guess that's the question here, but no one's asking us, the taxpayer. Everyone says that one more life is worth it. Well, it is, but guess what, if you're independently wealthy and you want to pay for that, fine, but this is taxpayer money, and we're only going to have a certain level of care. And, by the way, folks, we should be looking at all of our budgets, the BCC budget, the fire department budget, Pelican Bay budget, because we're heading for another recession here, if you've been watching the market, and we need to start looking at how we're spending the taxpayer money. So I say, rather than going for a one-year extension, maybe six months. Let's get this done by June 30th so that -- because the budgets have to come out in September, so let's not wait till December when we're in another budget year. Let's move this fast forward. Everybody already knows what they want. Keep the status quo to June 30th. Get this figured out. I think we need to restructure how we're doing business here and whittle back this fire department and work for a unified level of service. Thank you. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. Shirley Cotton (sic)? MS. COTHRAN: Cothran. CHAIRMAN FIALA: And will be followed by Marcie -- Marcia. MS. NAES: Naes. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. And if you would come up and take your place in line to follow Shirley, please. MS. COTHRAN: Okay. Shirley Cothran, 836 Grand Rapids in the Big Page 53 January 25, 2016 Corkscrew area. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Would you talk into the microphone? MS. COTHRAN: Yes. I was going to read the statute because I think that you've all given opinions on it, but that's been done. I want to know whether or not -- you all have opinions, and you have said you wanted to base this on fact, not an anecdote, not emotion, but if you listen to yourself, some of you get very emotional when you speak about this. The more-is-less, less-is-more argument, if less is more, let's cut, say, the number of paramedics on the county staff by another 10 percent or 20 percent or in half. Commissioner Nance had read into the record the white paper from the University of Oklahoma, and it said that nothing is further than (sic) the truth than putting more paramedics on is a good thing. Nothing could be further from the truth. Then it goes on to say -- to support that by saying, recent studies "may indicate," "might mean." It used very soft words to support that argument. And I think -- and then it says, when a critical mass is reached. Well, Commissioner Nance has gotten us an extra paramedic out in Big Corkscrew, so we're up to two. Is two the critical mass? Is three too many? It -- I don't think that that paper very well describes what is happening in real life. And there's been a lot of talk about we've always used interlocals and they have been okay. Well, I used to speed a lot. And when I finally got pulled over, when I told the officer this is how fast I always drive this road, it didn't go very far. So just because it's always been done doesn't mean it's been done legally. And I'm glad somebody has asked the State Attorney General to look into this particular issue because, there were three AGOs out there that quote the paragraph that Chief Anderson read, and they all say they have to have the power to do it independently before they can enter into an agreement. And that's -- oh, and there were 35 other counties that have multiple ALS agencies, one as many as 20. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you, thank you. Marcia, followed by Michael Jimenez. MR. JIMENEZ: I'm going to cede my time to Christopher Spencer. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. And then after that is Christopher Spencer. Thank you. MS. NAES: My name is Marcia Naes, and I live at 4670 Saint Croix Page 54 January 25, 2016 Lane, Naples, 34109. I'm concerned that both sides of the table have their issues and have their positions, and we don't seem to be moving forward. In four days -- I don't like to think of the consequence of someone not getting the help they need, bottom line. I've been a citizen of Collier County for 14 years. I'm a retired teacher with a professional career of 30 years. I have three certifications and have taught in areas of disability as well as regular classroom. I also trained other teachers in how to present information so that all could learn. I'd have my work cut out if I had to deal with this group. Now, it seems to me the most reasonable thing, given all the different issues that have been talked about here, is to at least postpone this decision on cutting off service to North Collier residents. I've got a lot of friends that come in from Lee County every day. I've got a lot of friends that come from other parts of the county every day. I don't live far from Immokalee Road, and I can't imagine fire trucks or ambulances getting through very quickly. They don't. It's season. And I also am concerned that it's not only a matter of life and death -- that's serious enough -- but it's a matter of a life-long disability, and this is very important for everyone to understand. Disabilities happen at any age. A soccer event, accident at home, workplace accident, all of those things without the proper intervention can lead to permanent damage and the resulting emotional trauma of having a disability for the rest of your life. I urge you to be cognizant of the fact of how this looks at the grass-roots level, and I urge you to cooperate fully with each other. And if it takes postponing for a time any decision making until the legal ramifications can be clarified, then so be it, whether that's six months or a year. But I urge you, because of the seriousness at the grass-roots level, to deal with these issues and continue the service we have. Thank you. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. MS. NAES: Both sides. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Chris Spencer followed by Everett Alsbrook. MR. SPENCER: Okay. Before we get started, I just want -- can everybody hear me? My name is Christopher Spencer. Everybody can hear Page 55 January 25, 2016 me? Okay. So first thing I want to ask is, is Dr. Tober here? No, he's not. Are any of you paramedics? Anybody? Any EMTs? Anybody have a CPR card? Okay. So what we have here is a board that's making decisions to talk about the service of public emergency response from state-certified paramedics who are following the guidelines in the same book that the Collier County EMS employees follow under the direction of your county medical director, Dr. Bob Tober. It's been in service for five years, and the only time it was going to be taken off the consent agenda was to praise it in these last five years, but now all of a sudden it has to come off and be totally thrown out with nothing in place, so 14 units in North Collier's district that have paramedics that work hand in hand with Collier County EMS and turn over the employ -- the patients to the employees is going by the wayside. You know, Naples Community Hospital has a hospital in the North Collier area. They've got -- through Allen Weiss we received a letter saying he supports the COPCN for North Collier. The Immokalee firefighters have supported us, the Marco Island firefighters support us, Greater Naples firefighters have supported us, and all of the Collier County EMS employees support the COPCN process because of the fact that you don't have enough ambulances out there. You take one ambulance out of the county, and the wait times become drastically longer. Chief Murphy from Marco Island -- good morning, Chief-- had indicated that they've got to wait 20 minutes. Hey, guess what, we're in North Collier. You think we're closer to the hospitals? Sometimes we have the same problems. The actions that are being asked here is to extend this. I don't want you to -- I know you can hear me, but I want you to listen to me because, guess what, with my vote, you are my employees. You're all these people's employees, and I'm not happy with the idea that a couple of you have gotten together and taken some data and said, this is a model we're going to use, so all of a sudden after five years of proven success, people are walking around -- everyone wants to use the word, oh, that's anecdotal. It's the truth. It's the God's honest truth. And I implore you, I beg you, I beseech you, please just continue to let this thing go on for one more year, take care of your constituents, your family, yourself, and let the men and women who have prided themselves on the Page 56 January 25, 2016 greatest profession out there, be it with Collier County EMS or be it with any of the fire departments in the county, to deliver ALS service and work hand in hand as they've done, brother and brother, sister to sister with this agreement by issuing the COPCN. And if you want to work out some details, work it out, but don't stop it. Thank you. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. And the last speaker, Everett Alsbrook. DR. ALSBROOK: Hi. My name's Everett Alsbrook. I've lived in Collier County since 1983. I've practiced medicine in Collier County since 1983. The vast majority of my medical practice has been in critical care. As I listen to this discussion, I've been reading about the arguments that have gone on that have led up to this. Like the last gentleman, I would wonder who has actually given mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to someone. I have three times. I have -- I know what it's like to lie on a floor to put an intratracheal tube in someone, those difficult situations where you need the skills. I would say to you that this is a problem of identifying principles and establishing a strong chain of command. You need to let the decision making about the medical care go with the people who give the medical care, who know what it's about. They need to come to you with fairly succinct decisions. You have to coordinate expenses, dollar amounts, the logistics of making it all happen. But what I would say is whoever allowed this crisis to come to pass, or however many people, they need to stick their tail between their legs, suck it up, and cooperate to get through this period of time until a more reasoned approach can be taken. And then the attitude should be one of agree to agree. And I hear sometimes there are people who don't have that attitude of agree to agree, because in the final analysis you need to have a workable, crucial care situation for the citizens of the county. So you need to agree amongst yourselves that you're going to do that. So I would encourage you to cooperate with one another. I understand that there are many agendas going on here. And it is political; you have to honor the politic. But there are certain principles you need to be keeping your eye on, and all your actions should be addressed toward those principles. And, yes, you can make mistakes from time to time, but you're in a position of correcting them. And, yes, some of you will not be here next year or Page 57 January 25, 2016 the year after or whatever, but you're here now because you have a feeling of civic responsibility. Yes, you have to work together and there have to be political concessions and give and take and forming consensus, but I would encourage you to not dwell in the details which you -- like the last gentleman said, which you really don't know anything about. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. DR. ALSBROOK: Leave that to the people who do. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you, Dr. Alsbrook. I have a question before we continue, and that is really for the attorney. So if the COPCN were not extended -- I mean, we're talking about four days left -- and they've got many, many paramedics on the North Collier Fire crew -- they can still go out, right? I mean, they still have an ALS agreement, right? COMMISSIONER HILLER: No. MS. DONALDSON: Madam Chair, midnight on Friday, which is what, the 29th, the district will need to, in order to comply with state law and regulations, remove the ALS equipment off the vehicles, and the paramedics will no longer be able to provide ALS service because they -- we are not licensed. The minute we lose our COPCN, we lose our state license. You can only have a state license to provide ALS non-transport if you have a COPCN from the county you're providing the service. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Madam Chair? CHAIRMAN FIALA: I don't know who's talking to me. COMMISSIONER HENNING: That's Commissioner Henning. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Oh, I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Yeah. You know, I haven't heard anybody here that doesn't want North Collier to do ALS service. The whole argument is what kind of agreement do we provide to make that happen. That's where the rub is. And it's already out of the bag you want to wait till the new county commissioners take over, which is a chance. I mean, you don't know if the new board is going to agree on support by COPCN. I mean, that tactic is not, in my opinion, a good tactic to do; however, if we -- if it takes that long to come to a conclusion, shame on us. It shouldn't take Page 58 January 25, 2016 that -- until after the election for these two boards to come to a conclusion what we're going to do. However, my observation is we're stuck. It's a matter of-- it's not a matter of we don't want or you don't. We all want for you to provide advanced life support. It's how we get there. And I'm willing, you know, to do that, have Dr. Panozzo still train and oversee the operation of advanced life support, basic life support under an interlocal agreement that hasn't been proven illegal in the court of law. So, you know, if you want to deny the citizens of North Collier, to not provide ALS, then so be it. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Hiller? COMMISSIONER HILLER: Thank you. I have to say I'm so impressed by the speakers. I mean, I'm -- and it is emotional for me. My husband died in cardiac arrest, so this is a big deal in my mind, because I never want to see what happened to me and to him and to my children happen to any of you. Doug, what you said was unbelievable, okay. I mean, you spoke the truth from the heart, and you called it, as did you, as did George Danz, the medical director from Broward County, as did Chief Anderson, as did Dr. Hobaica, as did Shirley, Marcia, Chris Spencer, Allen Weiss from NCH, and Dr. Everett Alsbrook. Every single one of you made it clear that in the public's interest, in the interest of saving lives and preventing disability, we must do what is within our power to do and what our community needs, which is award that COPCN, which we know is the legal way to get things done. We can't sit here and play Russian roulette and speculate whether or not the interlocal agreement approach that Commissioner Henning wants to exercise is the right way to go. We know for sure that awarding a COPCN is legal. We know that is the right way. And what has happened is this Board of County Commissioners, by a majority vote, wrongly denied North Collier their COPCN notwithstanding the evidence presented to this board under oath. They had no legal right to deny that COPCN. . This is frightening. I mean, I'm actually shaking. We had the chief from Immokalee read to us Florida Statute 401.321. It's clear. Page 59 January 25, 2016 Janet Vasey is incorrect. I'm sorry, not 1 -- forgive me. Not 401.321, but 163.3171 regarding interlocal agreements. And the interlocal agreements can only be entered into where both entities share in common the service intended to be cooperated upon where each entity can exercise the right to engage in that service separately. And then 401.321, Florida Statutes, provides transferability of license. Each license is valid only for the licensee to whom it is issued and is not subject to sale, assignment, or transfer voluntary or involuntary. Reading those two statutes together, nothing could be clearer. But the bottom line is, we know that awarding a COPCN to North Naples allows North Naples to provide ALS. COMMISSIONER HENNING: North Collier. COMMISSIONER HILLER: I'm sorry, North Collier. Thank you for correcting me, and that is very important because Big Corkscrew is being seriously hurt by this. And it allows North Collier to enter into an interlocal agreement with respect to the provision of ALS services with Collier County and Collier County's EMS. I think Commissioner Fiala said it correctly when she said what we should do now is, given that we can, given the evidence that was presented to us, extend not for a day or a month, but extend for the year to protect the lives of the citizens of Collier County and to allow for a conclusion to be arrived at regarding the legality of these interlocal agreements if there is an absence of a COPCN award. And whether or not that should be done by an Attorney General's opinion or by court action is a question that I think is answered with the obvious, and that is, this is not anything that can be decided by any entity that doesn't make that decision binding. This is about patient care. This is about the people. Dr. Hobaica brought that up. No one is sitting here talking about patient care. They're talking about data and taxes and whether we should, you know, lower taxes because, is it worth saving one more life? Well, I'll tell you, yes, it is, and if-- whoever that speaker was that said that wants to -- was it you, sir? DR. DOYLE: Yes, it was. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Okay. If you want to sacrifice your life to Page 60 January 25, 2016 lower taxes, then please let the other citizens know, but I assure you, I will not ask any citizen to put their life on the line in order to lower taxes, because that's what -- this is not -- this is not what this is about. I mean, that is, like, a false argument. I am so concerned, and I want to thank you, Commissioner Fiala. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for bringing forward what these people want, which is the extension of that COPCN for one year to allow for a dec action to move forward to get a final decision from the courts as to whether or not these interlocal agreements in the absence of a COPCN can proceed. But we know for sure that a COPCN does allow for ALS services to be provided and does allow for an interlocal agreement between North Collier and this county. So why not go down the road that we know is correct? I really beg the rest of this board. Commissioner Nance, I really implore you. I implore you from the bottom of my heart, extend that COPCN. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Now, who else had asked to speak on our board? I want to get to this board as well. (No response.) CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. No one. Let's -- let me try. Okay. Was your hand up first, and then -- COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Yeah, it was. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Mr. Hoffman (sic), and then Chris Lombardo. COMMISSIONER CROS SAN: Okay. Let's just -- I know everybody's getting emotional, but just to focus on everybody out here, you know. You know, as a young man with a young family and everybody out there, I mean, what did you always want for your kids? You wanted your kids to thrive. You wanted them to do the best. The same thing in the fire departments as with EMS. You wanted them to grow up and be that star or whatever, but -- and I've always encouraged, in my infancy, Chief Greenberg, as she was the delivery area, to get those paramedics on the street because I saw -- I saw exactly how it worked, you know. If you see something, anybody around here, goes on with their neighbors, what are you going to do? You're going to love thy neighbor. You're going to go over there, and you're going to help them,just the way each one of you have set the tone with this new mobile data terminal. What you guys have done, which is unveiled this week, I don't even think Lee County has it. Page 61 January 25, 2016 And what it does, what you guys are unveiling, what you voted for, yes, is that when all of these police officer cars and all of these -- and this is not anecdotal evidence -- all of these engines, as they're traveling around the county, there's a big board, and it doesn't recognize that -- if the North Collier delivery truck is down in the City of Naples and they're the closest, they're responding, and they can get there before. Or if they're in the Greater Naples district as well and those are out -- and you guys have spent millions of dollars, and that's going to -- that's going to save so many lives right there. But these fire trucks -- and it's all about getting to the patient quicker. And, you know what, if Dr. Panozzo doesn't play nice and Dr. Tober doesn't play nice, like -- Commissioner Nance, you stated a long time ago that if they don't play nice then, boy, we have to find somebody else. And if our management doesn't play nice over there, we are going to task them, like you -- I would expect to task your people, to say, hey, you're going to work this out. And I -- you know what -- and if it's not a year, if you guys wanted to before you got out of office, and maybe I'm voted out of office -- six months, six months in July, like the doctor said, you know. I think we have a lot of groundwork here that we could get this work through in six months. I know we could get something from the Attorney General within six months; I would hope that we could. And I just -- I just -- you know what -- and I think we need to leave all of our egos on the floor and focus outward to all these people right here and vote for the COPCN. Only if it -- even if it's only for six months. If it's six days, I'll take it, but I would -- I would ask for that latitude to serve our people. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you, sir. Mr. Hoffman? COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: I agree with half of what Commissioner Crossan said. Let me explain my position and the way I look at it. From a North Naples point of view -- North Collier, excuse me, we don't want to provide ALS service unless we have a COCP -- C-O. COMMISSIONER CHAO: P-C. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: -- P-C-N. Thank you. So here's my proposal. The question that has to be asked -- answered -- Page 62 January 25, 2016 and I don't know who the right person is to answer it, whether it's a judge or the Attorney General. Can North Collier provide ALS service under an interlocal agreement with the county? That's the question. We need to ask that question to somebody in authority who can give us an answer. While we're waiting for that answer, we extend the COCPN (sic) to, let's say, one month after we receive that answer so we have time to do whatever it is. And I think if we did -- took that approach, we get an official answer. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: That's my position. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Thank you. And Chairman -- are you Chairman? No, you're not chairman anymore. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: No, no, no. I'm the past chairman. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Just an attorney. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm just a member of the commission. CHAIRMAN FIALA: A lowly attorney. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: That's me. That's me. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm going to echo what Commissioner Hoffman just said to you, and I want you to think about this. I mean, the problem that I have from the get-go is the fact that we've placed this at a high-pressure level with incredibly high stakes. Here's the problem. You cannot tell me the statute doesn't say what it says. It does. The language is pretty plain. It's there. It's no different than telling me that less means more. And you cannot tell me, as the county, that if you're wrong and this commission gets sued that somehow you're going to step up and take care of that. You're asking us to take the risk. That's not reasonable. That's not appropriate or fair. To me, we have to do essentially a cost-benefit analysis. So the question becomes this: You have a proven system that you've looked at and watched for five years. President Spencer's right, you've been given accolades for the job that it's done. It is a well-run, experienced system. It exists. It's there, and it's providing a necessary service for this community at large, not just North Collier, but the entire community. So we know we have a good system. We know we have an effective system. We know we can afford the system. Page 63 January 25, 2016 Now, we wind up with this very difficult legal issue about whether it's an interlocal agreement or whether it's a COPCN. You've done five years of COPCNs. You cannot assure us that the interlocal agreement is the right way to go. I appreciate Jeff Klatzkow's predicament. If I was him, I would be saying the same thing. Sure, these are -- these are enforceable because there are a lot of them out there. That doesn't mean it's enforceable. That means there's risk out there. That's a tough call. It's a tough spot to be as a lawyer. When you look at this and you say, well, all right, that's different, then really think about the impact of that statute, and now we have to reconsider. So here's the question. Do you take this line where you cannot tell us the statute says something other than it does recognizing that in four days we have to shut our system down and hope that there's a way to cover this community over the next six months to a year while we sort this out, or do you say to yourselves, look, we don't have the answer, but there's really no harm. It costs the county nothing. It does nothing but protect their lives to extend this. And, Commissioner Henning, I don't know the out-of-the-bag comment. Whether it's three months, six months, or a year, whatever it takes to get this done needs to be done. We're clearly not going to find the answer right here. And so whether we go to the AGO or whether we file motions for summary judgment and let the judge decide, we have a way to get to the answer. But the question is, is it reasonable to put citizens' lives at risk while we find out the answer? And I would suggest to you no. There's no harm to the county in extending the COPCN, but there is harm for the district to do the interlocal agreement and, in particular, for all eight commissioners sitting here, whether we realize it -- and I would question -- I'm a trial lawyer. I don't know whether I wouldn't try to say that I bootstrap all five commissioners from the county into this. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Unequivocally. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: You know -- and so, is that a risk we're all willing to take? Why would we do that when we have a proven system and we're talking about a pretty simple answer? I mean, I agree, we need to put the egos to bed. We need to just move on. We need to find a solution. I don't think anybody on this side of the table is saying to you that we're not willing to work through all these other issues, nor Page 64 January 25, 2016 are we saying we're not willing to go and seek an opinion, whether it's an AGO or the courts, to find out the answer on the interlocal agreement. What's clear is none of us have the answer. And by Saturday at 12:01 a.m. we have a crisis. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Did I understand you to say that you didn't know if you could operate under an ALS agreement? COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Oh, no. I firmly believe the statute says what it says. We have to have a COPCN, but that's my personal opinion. And what I'm telling you is, let's not -- let's not battle out our opinions at the risk of the general public. That makes no sense. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Do you think that you can -- if a six-month deadline was put in place, do you think you would then be able to come to an understanding -- COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Commissioner Fiala, here's what I think. CHAIRMAN FIALA: -- that you can then operate under an ALS, or do you think it never can be done? COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Well, here's what I -- here's the way I look at this. I don't know that you put a hard stop on this because the issue's too critical. I think you say, at six months -- if that's what you want to do; I would prefer a year. But if it's six months, it's six months. We do a review of this, and we determine whether we've got an AGO or a summary judgment or some decision from a court that gives us the assurance when it comes to the legal issue; at the same time, start working through -- we know the stat -- here's what's crazy about this. On the ground level, the two sets of staff work together well. Your staff recommended the extension -- the granting of the COPCN. I mean, to me that's rather surprising. It's your staff that's telling you, yep, we're okay with this. So what do we know? We know they can work together. I -- and, you know, someone asked. I've given mouth to mouth. I've done CPR. I've pulled bodies out of springs. I've been there. But I have no clue how to solve a data-sharing issue or coordinate those kinds of things. I know we've hired some great people that are extremely good at that. And in this six-month window, because they are passionate about this, they will help find answers. But, to me, this game of chicken, which is what this is, you know, stand us Page 65 January 25, 2016 on a yellow line, send a car at us at 90 miles an hour, and then tell us you don't have an ambulance to get to us after we get to the car and get hit by the car, that's not right. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Norman? COMMISSIONER FEDER: I think we need to remember how we got here. There was a submission to continue what had been five years of COPCN after a merger. We're all talking about all-hazards and expansion of issues, and then all of a sudden it wasn't until September that there was any indication that that wasn't the continuation we were going to be experiencing. COMMISSIONER HENNING: We heard that. We've heard that. So how do we move forward, Mr. Feder? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. If you'd give me a second. You made the charge that it's all on us because we won't go to an interlocal agreement. So what I'm trying to say -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: What I heard from your colleagues is, why don't we seek an opinion. COMMISSIONER FEDER: I didn't disagree with that. Now, what do we do in the interim? COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. Let's talk about that. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Henning. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. In the interim we go COPCN extension, and we work towards that opinion, and we work towards continuation of all-hazards and issues that are being worked on in the county and, by the way, having gotten stopped just because we had a COPCN. Our merger with Big Corkscrew was part of that example of it continuing in spite of a COPCN being out there. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Did you want to finish, Commissioner? COMMISSIONER CHAO: I've got a comment. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Well, I -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Just a minute, please. COMMISSIONER HENNING: For the attorneys, is it a question of the Court, or is the question of the AGO? Now, I heard some say they don't believe in the AGO. MR. KLATZKOW: They're the ones that raised the issue. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Right. Page 66 January 25, 2016 MR. KLATZKOW: They're the ones that raised the liability. They're the ones that raised that this is illegal, okay. I'm indifferent. If they agree with an AGO opinion, that will take less time, I suppose, or we can go through the court system and get it that way. I'm indifferent. But, really, the issue's been raised by North Collier, not by us. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: But I heard from Commissioner Lombardo that he doesn't want to stop with an AGO opinion. He doesn't want to start. He wants -- COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: That's not what I said, but that's okay. MR. KLATZKOW: I would ask them what they want. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: That's a good question. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm sitting here. You can ask me. MR. KLATZKOW: Well, you're one vote out of eight. I mean, I've heard different things from you folks. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Can I -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Let's just -- let's speak one at a time, because our court reporter cannot get two people talking at the same time on one little tape. MS. DONALDSON: Madam Chair? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes. And then this gentleman over here had asked also to speak. MS. DONALDSON: The concern with an Attorney General Opinion request is there's no statutory requirement that they issue an opinion. Oftentimes, when there are conflicting governments involved, they say, we're not going to get involved. So I think, potentially, we could try to do an Attorney General Opinion request. If she says no, then we would move forward with seeking a request from the courts to get clarification. I just don't want it to be tied to an issuance of an Attorney General Opinion when the Attorney General is not legally obligated to give us one. COMMISSIONER HENNING: May I say something very important on point. We've been involved in this before where we've had litigation. They would not answer the question because of the litigation. So maybe the true question should be of the courts. MS. DONALDSON: I don't disagree. I just wanted to raise the issue of, if we just say it's only Attorney General Opinion, that there might be some Page 67 January 25, 2016 issues related to getting the Attorney General Opinion. COMMISSIONER HILLER: May I? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Now, this gentleman over here -- I'm sorry, I don't know your name. COMMISSIONER CHAO: Commissioner Chao. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Commissioner Chao. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Thank you. COMMISSIONER CHAO: Yes, ma'am. We need to just extend the COPCN. It was originally coming, and it was supposed to be accepted or rejected in October. We can't say concretely we're going to -- if it isn't done by October, by golly, we're going to fix it. If it's going to go to the courts, we all know how that goes. We have to take it to there. And if we're all here or none of us are here, that's to the betterment of the people if the COPCN is extended, because at this point the public isn't going to be at a higher risk than they sit here today. And adjacent (sic) to that, whatever vote that you guys make, when you guys voted to cancel the -- or the way the COPCN was done, the people of Corkscrew, if an ALS engine comes over from North Collier, they cannot treat the people in Corkscrew. They can go to Marco Island, Everglades City, Golden Gate, any part of the county, and they can treat. The North Collier that are inside the Naples, the old North Naples Fire District, they can go treat those people. They cannot come and treat my mother, my father, my sisters, my neighbors, my family, my friends, anyone because of the decision, the way it was done. And all this came about because we asked to just extend it into -- to include them. And whatever decision goes, we need to -- for the betterment and the protection of all the county people, especially the ones of Corkscrew, to fix that issue, even if you're going to deny it. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Feder -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: Feder. CHAIRMAN FIALA: -- and then -- okay, Commissioner Hiller, Commissioner Taylor. Thank you. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. What I would like to do -- we've had very, very good discussion. We've had a lot of good public input. I think we need to be working towards getting an answer, because in four days I don't think Page 68 January 25, 2016 any of us wants to be where we're looking at. We've got an agenda item under No. 9 that I may invoke as Chairman of the North Collier Fire District and ask of the other members here, and even by vote -- I'm going to ask if there's a motion for us to seek legal opinion as to whether or not we can enter into an interlocal or if we are required to have a COPCN to do so; is that correct? COMMISSIONER BURKE: I'd so moved. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: A comment for the attorney. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Just one second, please. I wanted to hear from counsel if that's a correct motion. MS. DONALDSON: I would just have it clarified through the courts. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Right. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Clarified through the courts, okay. CHAIRMAN FIALA: So what does that mean? COMMISSIONER FEDER: The motion is that we, as a board, are going to seek clarification through the courts. Now, again, I'm going to ask my attorney to make -- MR. KLATZKOW: You're doing that now. COMMISSIONER FEDER: No. As a matter of fact -- and my attorney can help me here, but my understanding is we are in a legal proceeding, which we have put in abeyance, on hold, to look at the issuance of the COPCN and the process relative to that that would followed. It does not include, and specifically didn't include, because we didn't want to raise the issue countywide, whether or not an interlocal without a COPCN is a viable mechanism under which we can operate, is that not correct, for ALS? MS. DONALDSON: Madam Chair? Yes, that is correct. COMMISSIONER FEDER: So we are not asking that of the courts. I am now asking my board if they're willing to specifically make that request of the courts, because an Attorney General's opinion might not come forward, wouldn't necessarily be binding, and so I would like to get this answered, because it seems to be the biggest stumbling block we, as two boards that need to work together, are having. CHAIRMAN FIALA: So do you want that answer right now? COMMISSIONER FEDER: So I have -- yeah, to have the courts -- COMMISSIONER BURKE: Commissioner? Page 69 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER FEDER: -- relate to this issue and to give us clarification on it as to our -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: So, COMMISSIONER FEDER,just let me make sure I understand what you just said. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. CHAIRMAN FIALA: So you want them to make a decision to get the opinion of the Court, which means that we make -- we do -- take no action today, which means in four days this is -- COMMISSIONER HILLER: No, no, no, no. COMMISSIONER FEDER: No. I would hope that is not the case. I would hope that if I'm taking this action -- COMMISSIONER HILLER: That we do take action. COMMISSIONER FEDER: -- that is good faith for this board to extend the COPCN until we can get that answer out of the courts because, like you said, we've been working under a COPCN very successfully. We know that that works. And right now I'm in the middle of season, we're servicing people, servicing them very well, and we need to continue to until we have an alternate, and if that alternate turns out that it does not require a COPCN interlocal, we're then in that discussion. But right now we're not in that discussion because of what we're reading and what we're understanding is in the statute, and so we're going to ask the courts to opine. CHAIRMAN FIALA: So that is your proposal. Commissioner -- COMMISSIONER BURKE: Commissioner Feder, can you repeat that motion. CHAIRMAN FIALA: -- Hiller, then Commissioner Taylor. COMMISSIONER FEDER: I was waiting for someone to make a motion specifically, but -- COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Well, can we have discussion before. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Of course. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: I don't know how to work this out, but I think that motion should be, you call it good faith conditional on the county commissioners giving us an -- letting us keep our COCPN -- excuse me -- COPCN until -- Page 70 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER FEDER: Until such time and for a period after that to work through the issues, yes. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Right. And then we'll know the answer, yes or no, and we have a COPCN, or we operate -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: Well -- COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: -- under an interlocal agreement. COMMISSIONER FEDER: -- we'd continue to service people until we have an answer. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Yes. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. Is there any -- is there any second to that motion? COMMISSIONER McGOWAN: I'll second it. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: For discussion purposes, that may not be something the county wants. May I -- you know -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: We're making our vote contingent upon their continuing the COPCN. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: No, no, no. You don't understand my point. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yeah. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I mean, I'm not so sure the county wants a decision as to whether, you know, interlocal agreements are enforceable or not, and I don't know whether we have standing in this lawsuit to even raise that issue, you know. We'd have to think about how we approach that. Now, I'm not opposed to the idea. There are procedural approaches we have to follow, too, because the problem we have is it's very likely that the Attorney General, because of the litigation, is not going to step up. And by the bye, even if the Attorney General does express an opinion, it is an opinion. It is persuasive but not binding. I mean, that's the problem. And so it doesn't solve the problem. When it gets to the Court, we did not phrase -- we did not frame that lawsuit around that issue, and we did that on purpose. We stuck to what we saw as the issue at hand, which is whether the county had right to deny the COPCN. What you're talking about is a different issue, which may mean that we have to amend the lawsuit to get to the point where a court would even consider Page 71 January 25, 2016 answering that, which means the county has to stipulate and agree to that amendment. MS. DONALDSON: Mr. Chair, what I would recommend is we actually keep our current litigation stayed and then we seek a separate action related to getting clarification on the statute. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Right. MS. DONALDSON: Because I think that if we start moving the one lawsuit forward, there's a whole lot of issues, a lot of discovery that would go into that that we really -- it may be premature to go through that; whereas, if we can get the question answered separately, it's not tied to the lawsuit, but it would impact, ultimately, the lawsuit. COMMISSIONER FEDER: And, Laura, conditioned on the COPCN being extended, that would be what I would enter in the motion is, in fact, that we go as a separate effort, legal, to get an opinion from the courts. CHAIRMAN FIALA: So you have a motion on the floor and a second. Do you want to withdraw that motion, or do you want to -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: No. I'm asking that that motion include that, and I need the second to identify if they concur. COMMISSIONER McGOWAN: I concur. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Amending it, yes. Does the second concur? CHAIRMAN FIALA: But you recommended they didn't do that, right? COMMISSIONER McGOWAN: Concur. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Concur, okay. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: And if I can comment, the problem with filing now a second lawsuit is -- which would be against the county, is we're going to wind up with the same objection the county -- potentially, the county could make that it made to this lawsuit, which puts us back into the alternative dispute resolution process, which puts us right back here. I mean, you know, that's a 120-day clock. I mean, all of this just devours time, folks, but -- COMMISSIONER HILLER: And may I respond? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Ahead of your vote, I'd like to comment. The decision to move forward with, in effect, a dec action to get an Page 72 January 25, 2016 opinion on the validly of interlocal agreements for ALS services in the absence of awarding a COPCN to the requesting agency is something that does have to be answered by the courts, and there is no question that we as the Board of County Commissioners need to extend North Collier's COPCN to include Big Corkscrew till the courts rule on that decision. Since -- I mean, you know, at a minimum we've already had our staff tell us that the evidence presented to us supports awarding that COPCN, so we know it's justified to award it. To make your motion contingent upon our awarding that COPCN until such time as the Court rules on the new question that will come out of this new lawsuit is absolutely appropriate, and we as a board need to extend the North Collier COPCN until such time as we know definitively whether or not these interlocal agreements are valid or not. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Nance? Oh, I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER HILLER: So I think it's absolutely essential that we make that decision today. We, on our agenda, the way this meeting has been noticed, does allow our board and your board to take action under 8 and 9, so I think we do need to take action. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Nance? COMMISSIONER NANCE: Yes. I think, clearly, this is a situation and a quagmire that only a lawyer could create, okay. It is very clear to me, through the comments of Commissioner Lombardo, that this is never going to -- it's never going to come to an end. There is never going to be a determination that doesn't support North Collier Fire having their own independent license and operating independently from everybody else in the county that is going to cause them to cease the action. That's the only thing that's going to cause them to cease this endless action. We are, in Collier County, right on the cusp of having the ability to put together a unified emergency response. The only thing it's lacking is North Collier Fire's will to do so, okay. They want to talk about they can work out a way to share information. You want me to show you how you share information? You go like this (indicate), okay. It's that complicated. It's that complicated. Everybody else does it. How Page 73 January 25, 2016 complicated are these interlocal agreements? They're not. Everybody else in the county is doing it. I cannot support anything that is going to kick this down the road any further. I cannot kick -- I cannot support anything that is going to take something that's that close from being unified and fragment it so all of a sudden we've got an endless chain of licenses, interlocal agreements, medical directors, protocols, trainings, recertification, everybody else has got an opinion. I can't support any of that. So if these guys want to vote to continue down this road, I can tell you what, you're going to be out of the ALS business if I have anything to say about it because it's never, ever, ever, ever, ever going to end. It couldn't be done before me, and it's going to -- you know, today -- as far as I'm concerned, if I have a vote, today's the day this is going to stop. It's going to stop until somebody sees realization. If you want to continue in the court system for the next five years, you guys can just go on down the road, because I don't think there's anything anybody can do about it. I really don't. I don't think anybody in the world on either one of these boards can stop you from doing that if lawyers want to do that. You can just keep on going down the road. It will be a do loop without end. I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN FIALA: I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just got the word there are people waiting outside who have this room reserved apparently, so -- COMMISSIONER NANCE: What a shock. COMMISSIONER FEDER: What I'm going to do -- is there any other comments on either board? And then open it to the public. Yes, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Yes, I wanted to say this a while ago, but I can assure you, commissioners and the public, before I took this action and a vote in September, I asked our County Manager if we as the county could effectively and safely service the North Collier/Corkscrew area for EMS, and I was assured we could. In fact, the response is, we did it before. We could do it again. Thank you. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I have a response. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Excuse me, sir. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: No, no, allow me to respond. Page 74 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER HENNING: This is not litigation in the court. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Let's try -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: She is not finished. Commissioner Lombardo, let her finish, please. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: I -- we really don't need this as an argument. I can assure you this is what was stated to me, and that's why I confidently voted the way I did in September. The -- I think it's a ruse about this board's decision throwing people at great risk to the point where the world is going to end. I think that going forward we need to keep our eye on the goal, and that is a unified emergency response system within Collier County with all information being shared. Think about it. Right now that's not the case. That is frightening to me. Thank you. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Commissioner Feder? COMMISSIONER FEDER: If I don't have any more on your board, I'm going to ask my board. We've got a motion on the floor and seconded. COMMISSIONER HILLER: I'd like to comment. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Commissioner Hiller, and then we'll go back to our board. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Yeah. We do not -- we do not have the funds, we do not have the staff, we do not have the stations, we do not have the equipment to provide the level of service that will be discontinued if we do not award the COPCN. There is no question about it. Doug Fee brought that up. He's looked at the numbers. I know he has looked at the numbers. It is putting lives at risk. It is not true that we can provide the same level of service, and if we reduced the level of service, there is no question that there is the risk of lost lives that otherwise would be saved; there is the risk of disability that otherwise could be prevented. This is unacceptable. This discussion is not about unification of the independent fire districts. The independent fire districts were created by the voters of this county. The decision to dissolve any single fire district will be decided by the voters of those districts of this county, not by this board, and it is not up to this board nor can this board unify the independent fire districts. It's not permitted by law. We Page 75 January 25, 2016 don't have the jurisdiction or the legal ability to do it. And while -- COMMISSIONER NANCE: Commissioner, nobody suggested that, ma'am. COMMISSIONER HILLER: No, no, let me finish. Yes, it is. You have been suggesting it constantly. COMMISSIONER NANCE: I said provide response. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Let's one at a time, please. COMMISSIONER HILLER: The bottom -- and with respect to the exchange of information, there are federal guidelines on that. It's called HIPAA. You have privacy issues. There are guidelines on how information can be exchanged in these situations. It can be done as has been discussed by our staff, by the fire board. That is not the issue. COMMISSIONER FEDER: With all due respect. Madam Chair? COMMISSIONER HILLER: Hang on a sec. And don't say "with all due respect." That's, like, straight out of Boondock Saints. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay, good. This is our motion on the floor. COMMISSIONER HILLER: I understand. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes. COMMISSIONER HILLER: I just want to finish. I want to finish -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: I'm trying to give you the -- COMMISSIONER HILLER: -- and say that I want to -- let me finish, please. I support your motion, I applaud your entire board for taking the position you're taking, and I implore my board to extend that COPCN to allow the level of service to be maintained for North Collier, for my district, which is District 2, which is North Naples, and for Big Corkscrew. It is completely wrong. It is immoral. It is unethical. It is wrong not to extend the COPCN which we know from our staff, based on the evidence presented to us, is justified as extended and will save lives. Until the courts decide, let's protect the people. This is about the people. This is not about you or your policy to unify. This is about ALS advanced life-saving service for the benefit of the patient, for patient care. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Now we have a motion on the floor. COMMISSIONER FEDER: We have a motion on the floor. CHAIRMAN FIALA: And second. Page 76 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER FEDER: I want to go back to my commission and to the public for comment. I'm going to start off the comments here and then go down the board. The first one is I see we've got three options here. We've got the option to capitulate and go to an interlocal agreement because we're told that's what the county wants us to do even though that puts us in liability, from everything we can see, legally. We've got the option to continue a lawsuit that is going to try and say, county, you had no right to not issue the COPCN and to force it to be issued. Or, in the spirit, I thought, of cooperation, we can go and say the biggest bugaboo that we've argued over for how many hours is whether or not we have that legal right, and go to the courts and get that answered, but only while we are continuing to service the people, especially under peak season and with what's coming in this county. So having said that, we have three options. This third one, I think, is an effort at getting some resolution today. So I'm going to continue that discussion down here and open it to the public. Commissioner? COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm disappointed that Commissioner Nance is not in the room right now. Look, this is not about me, and I don't appreciate the personal attacks on me. I didn't write the statute. I didn't create this circumstance. I can read it like everybody else can. You can't tell me that it doesn't say what it says. It says what it says. The answer is to separate the two. Let's continue to provide the service, and let's find the answer in a methodology that will allow us to do this without impacting the public. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Right. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: That's the problem. If we take your other approach -- and let's assume, Commissioner Taylor, that the county has another hundred paramedics or whatever it needs to do to cover North Collier, that's wonderful news, but the reality is, it's not like North Collier is letting go of those hundred paramedics. Those hundred paramedics are cross-trained paramedics, and so they're here. They're there. They show up to work. Why not use them? Why not use them? Isn't that the most efficient thing? Page 77 January 25, 2016 And, again, while I hear you-all on this unified response, that's not what we're talking about today. I'm more than willing, and we have always been willing, to talk about how we provide better service on a higher level to make sure this community is protected. We've never, ever done anything to frustrate that and, in fact, we've typically led the way and been right there as a hardworking partner to find solutions. But we've got a legal issue that we can't solve, and so let's separate the two. Let's let us find the legal answer, but let's make sure we continue the status quo, which has been fine for you-all for five years and protected everybody for years. There's -- it's the same paramedics. There's no reason not to. And so, you know, again, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I have the answer either, but I don't appreciate the approach. And, Commissioner Nance, you and I someday need to sit down and have lunch and talk about your feelings towards me and lawyers in general, but the reality is, the system -- there's a jurisprudence system that's out there. That's how we define and resolve things. Lawyers are never liked because we have to sit there and get in the trenches and find the answers. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: That's not the reason. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: We don't need to harm these people in the process. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Chairman? Chairman Feder? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yeah. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Is the comments under the motion, or are we going to continue this? COMMISSIONER FEDER: We're going down the line, and then we're going to get public comment, and we're going to call the motion. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Is it on the motion, or it's just open it up to anything? COMMISSIONER FEDER: It's on the motion. Go ahead. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: What's the motion? COMMISSIONER FEDER: The motion specifically is that we ask the courts to define what -- well -- COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: File a separate lawsuit. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes, separate -- Page 78 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Can we provide a -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: -- a separate lawsuit filed by us to get the courts to define what specifically are the capabilities and the issues under the statutes as they exist. Once we know that, then we can continue to work through these issues. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: That's a very vague motion. COMMISSIONER FEDER: And during that time -- COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: That's a very vague motion. COMMISSIONER FEDER: During that time, the COPCN be extended. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: That's a very vague motion. My motion would be can North Collier provide ALS services under an interlocal agreement with the county, period. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Without having a COPCN that allows for ALS under the county? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Wait, Commissioners. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN FIALA: We can't take two motions at the same time. COMMISSIONER FEDER: I am not fashioning the specific lawsuit language; rather we are deciding whether or not we're -- if the county continues on a COPCN during this time, we are going to go to the courts to get a determination. Now, the exact language of that is something still to be determined. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. So we have a motion on the floor and a second. COMMISSIONER FEDER: And do I have any other comments from the commission itself? (No response.) COMMISSIONER FEDER: From the public we've got some people. COMMISSIONER BURKE: Well, I've got a question on this. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. COMMISSIONER BURKE: What this motion does is asks for an extension of the certificate, one, right? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Correct. COMMISSIONER BURKE: And under the extended period, we can -- Page 79 January 25, 2016 we'd go to the courts for clarification on the -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: And it gives good faith to the county that we are specifically ready to go to courts on that issue while they're continuing the COPCN, yes. COMMISSIONER BURKE: So if the county commissioners today, as Commissioner Nance said he wants to put an end to this today, if they put an end to it, we go to the courts. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Then we can't do anything else if that is the position that they take, that is correct. COMMISSIONER BURKE: But it would still, then, go to the courts. MS. DONALDSON: Mr. -- Madam Chair? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes, I'm Chair. MS. DONALDSON: If there's not success at today's meeting -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: Entertain any other motion. MS. DONALDSON: -- then the statute requires us to go to mediation, and we have to select a mediator within 14 days, I believe, of today's meeting. If we can't agree to that, then it's seven business days. We end up going to mediation, we go through mediation. If mediation is not successful, then we go back to court with our existing lawsuit, and we will move forward with that issue. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Can I make a comment? CHAIRMAN FIALA: So does this -- does Commissioner Feder's motion COMMISSIONER FEDER: We have a motion; we have a second. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes, but I'm asking her if that changes that position in any way. COMMISSIONER FEDER: No, it does not. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. So then we've got a motion on the floor and a second, and -- COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Comments? COMMISSIONER FEDER: I'm asking if there's any public comment. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: I still -- I would like to make a comment. I think we should discuss this after we hear the vote of the commission. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. We have a motion and a second. Page 80 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: That would make sense. COMMISSIONER FEDER: And, yes, Bob. MR. NAEGELE: Bob Naegele. A couple of questions. Of this hundred paramedics that seem to be floating in limbo, they will still be doing the BLS work, correct? COMMISSIONER FEDER: They will always -- MR. NAEGELE: Or are they sitting out everything? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. Just not going to have ALS. MR. NAEGELE: There will still be a -- it isn't like we're without -- that we're naked? We still have these hundred folks working BLS and helping take -- get folks on the way to the hospital? COMMISSIONER FEDER: (Nods head.) MR. NAEGELE: No, I know we don't have transport. And the other thing I have, I thought I heard Laura say we're going to have a lawsuit here. And every time you do a lawsuit north Naples picks up 86 percent of that cost. So I want us to be very careful anytime we say, well, we're going to take another shot with a lawsuit. Thank you. COMMISSIONER FEDER: We're trying to get clarification, yes. Any other comments? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. Doug? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Are you going to be taking all these comments from the audience -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: We're taking comments before we vote, yes. CHAIRMAN FIALA: -- regarding -- okay. COMMISSIONER FEDER: And I'm asking that they be to the issue as best they can, yes. MR. FEE: Good afternoon. CHAIRMAN FIALA: You're going to have them all lined up again. Mr. Feder? MS. DONALDSON: I'm sorry. Madam Chair, under the statute, before we take an action on the item we have to hear public comment, and this is a different issue. COMMISSIONER FEDER: And I want to hear the public comment. I'm Page 81 January 25, 2016 not going to have a motion and not hear the public. And Doug? CHAIRMAN FIALA: We're going to be -- we're going to take a recess in 10 minutes -- nine minutes for our court reporter. So just so you know, we've got a time limit here also. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Again, I'll ask people to stay to the item. Go ahead, Doug. MR. FEE: Very briefly. Doug Fee, for the record. This is to the North Collier Fire. I appreciate that you're bringing up the fact that we need a legal opinion -- and we only have four days -- but I would like to suggest that that wasn't necessarily told to the public prior to the meeting. What I think is on the agenda is the extension of the COPCN. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Which is what we're asking for with this as well, yes. MR. FEE: Okay. And so it seems to me we're adding something. If it wasn't in the original suit -- which I attended the meeting as the public, and you held that meeting and you went forward with it. This -- the strategy of not going down that road to get that answer was not put out in the public. While I support the getting the answer, there is obviously some things that the public in North Collier need to be aware of and -- the dollars. So I support, but I think today that it's great that you do that, but I think you need to come back to the citizens that you represent to go down that road. So it makes it a difficult call, but please -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: I appreciate that, Doug, but at the same time we've noticed -- one of the major notice issues was to seek continuation of the COPCN. That's what this motion is. We are acknowledging that we'll take some action during that time if, in fact, the county does extend the COPCN to try and get an answer to the question that's been raised heavily by the county as why not under an interlocal, and that will also address our legal implications as well. So they are very directly related; otherwise, how could I have any resolution or any issue today at all? MR. FEE: And with that -- I agree with what you just said, but if the Board, the County Commission, were asked to vote on the extension of North Collier's COPCN and they needed, in order to do that, a clarification to get that answer from you, then I would say that that would be a good thing on their part, Page 82 January 25, 2016 but I do believe that that answer would have to have further vetting at the fire district level. Does that make sense? So good luck. MS. COTHRAN: Shirley Cothran. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Hi, Shirley. MS. COTHRAN: Something has been bothering me, and that is you keep talking about extending the COPCN, which leaves Big Corkscrew out, as I understand it. COMMISSIONER HILLER: No. COMMISSIONER FEDER: No, it included Big Corkscrew. MS. COTHRAN: Okay, good. COMMISSIONER CHAO: No, it does not. COMMISSIONER HENNING: No, it doesn't. COMMISSIONER HILLER: It does. COMMISSIONER CHAO: No, it does not. MS. COTHRAN: Extending the current one doesn't. Approving the September one would, expanding it. The other thing I want to point out is that the contingency plan that the county came up with, if you go out of the ALS business, not only is it unbelievably expensive compared to the COPCN route, but it requires overtime on the part of the paramedics. There are limits on how long pilots can fly without having rest period, on train engineers, on truck drivers, on bus drivers, on anybody carrying passengers, and I would think that a passenger -- a patient would be considered a passenger in an ambulance. But your paramedics work 24-hour shifts, and then they would work overtime? So they're working 48 hours? I don't understand why a pilot can't fly an airplane for 48 hours but a paramedic can make lifesaving decisions. So this whole thing is just crazy. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. I appreciate that. If there's not any other comments, I think we had one question that got raised, and our intent always, if we had a COPCN, was then to be able to provide services through our own mutual aid and the like to Big Corkscrew, and that would still be my intent relative to this motion. COMMISSIONER BURKE: Mr. Chair? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. Page 83 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER BURKE: If this board votes to support the motion and the County Commission rejects it, I guess that's the term, that means at midnight Saturday our paramedics are out of service? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Barring any other motion or action, yes. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: On ALS. COMMISSIONER BURKE: On ALS. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes. Okay. We've had considerable discussion. We had a motion and a second. We'll call the question. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. COMMISSIONER McGOWAN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BURKE: Aye. COMMISSIONER CHAO: Aye. COMMISSIONER HANSON: Aye. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Aye. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Aye. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Aye. Opposed? COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: I don't know where my light is, but I'm opposed just because the motion is too -- is not specific. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Madam Chair? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. So it passes 7-1 with Commissioner Hoffman opposed. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Madam Chair? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER HENNING: We're talking about the extension of the North Naples region COPCN. There's no ALS from the firefighters in Big Corkscrew at this time, and there's not going to be if the COPCN is extended. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Point of clarification. My understanding is if we had a COPCN, we can establish agreement to provide services within the balance of our district; is that not the case? COMMISSIONER HILLER: No, you can't. COMMISSIONER FEDER: You can't. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. And -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: And somebody wanted to speak to it? Page 84 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER HENNING: And that is a concern of mine if we keep on kicking this down the road. So, Jeff, the question is, how quick, in your opinion, can we get an answer from the Court on the legality of the ALS for -- or interlocal agreement to provide ALS? MR. KLATZKOW: Well, it would depend upon how quickly North Collier was prosecuting this lawsuit. I don't know where the incentive is for them to quickly process this lawsuit so -- because as long as the lawsuit is open COMMISSIONER HENNING: Right. MR. KLATZKOW: -- their certificate is open. So this could be a lengthy process. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Well -- and I understand you want to kick it down the road until after the election. I get that. COMMISSIONER CHAO: That's not true. COMMISSIONER HENNING: It's been stated. COMMISSIONER CHAO: You stated it. We did not. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Yeah. And it's been said on several -- COMMISSIONER CHAO: It's just about the lives of our people. That's all we're looking for. COMMISSIONER HENNING: All right. Well, then, why not have the lives -- in your opinion, it's about ALS -- the fire department providing ALS. Why wouldn't you try to get the answer as soon as possible? COMMISSIONER CHAO: Sir, that's what we are attempting to do. COMMISSIONER HENNING: So can we get it in the next 30 days, potentially? MR. KLATZKOW: I don't think that's going to happen. COMMISSIONER HENNING: You don't think they're going to -- MR. KLATZKOW: I mean, anything's possible, sir, but I don't think that will happen, no. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Just for clarification -- MR. KLATZKOW: And now you're -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: No, I have the floor. MR. KLATZKOW: I mean, if what they're saying is bringing the lawsuit, okay, we'll have to reply to that lawsuit, then there will have to be motions Page 85 January 25, 2016 made. It's not going to happen in 30 days, I don't think. And then you're asking a judge to simply -- to dictate to a judge how quickly he's going to prosecute -- answer this question? COMMISSIONER HENNING: I'm just trying to get an opinion how long it's going to take. MR. KLATZKOW: I think it's going to take a long time. That's my opinion. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Six to eight to 12 months. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Yeah, that doesn't answer the question. Laura, do you have any idea? MS. DONALDSON: Commissioner, I think that we could commit on how quickly we file it to the Court. But, as the County Attorney stated, the county then has to respond, and then, depending on what issues are raised, then the judge will have to set it. I mean, we can commit to having it filed, the pleading filed -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: Right. MS. DONALDSON: -- within a certain time frame, but beyond that, we're not in control. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Yeah. I was just looking for -- based upon your knowledge of when the Court might hear and rule on it. That's -- MR. KLATZKOW: You're probably looking six months to a year minimum. That's probably what you're looking at. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Which is why the COPCN should be extended for a year. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. So -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: But in the meantime we're not going to address the question. So you'd get an answer out of the State Attorney General much quicker than you would the courts. COMMISSIONER HILLER: You're not going to get -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: So, folks, on our commission now, what do you want to do from here? Do you want to make a motion yourselves? Do you want to just continue on with the next questions? COMMISSIONER HENNING: Well, I would like to -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: We should break. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Let's take a break. Page 86 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER HENNING: I would like to talk to the -- I would like to talk to the County Attorney and make a decision at the Board of Commissioners meeting as far as a motion. Now, I really want to answer the question, but there's a lot of problems in here. One is you don't have any -- you have paramedics within the Corkscrew area, but you want to enhance service. Got that. That doesn't provide it. So either the Board has a unified system to where we have interlocal agreements throughout Collier County to provide ALS by the independents or municipalities, or we're doing COPCNs. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Mr. Chairman? COMMISSIONER HENNING: So I want to talk to the County Attorney. I don't want to drag this out for a year. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yeah. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Could I make a motion that we accept the county's offer, if I could use those words, to enter into an interlocal agreement? We've gone around in a complete circle, and my real concern is providing service to the citizens of North Collier. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Yeah, it's illegal. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Let him finish, please. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Okay. That would be my motion. And if it -- why is it illegal for us and not for the other districts to do it? COMMISSIONER HILLER: It's illegal for them, too. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: So it's illegal for everybody? That's your position? COMMISSIONER HILLER: Yes. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Okay. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Is that the truth? COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Well, that raises a whole 'nother issue. COMMISSIONER HILLER: I'm reading the law. I've got -- I have a statute here. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Yeah. I've heard different -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: We've giving the county a -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER FEDER: With all due respect, Commissioner, we're giving the county the chance to go through their end of the issues. Page 87 January 25, 2016 Do I hear a second on that on this board? I don't think I do. COMMISSIONER BURKE: A what -- second on what? COMMISSIONER FEDER: On the motion to go into an interlocal agreement at this time. COMMISSIONER BURKE: Is that the motion made by Commissioner Hoffman? COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Yes. COMMISSIONER BURKE: I would second it. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Call the question. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Call the question. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Don't you want public comment? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Public comment, yes. CHIEF ANDERSON: Paul Anderson, Fire Chief, Immokalee. I just wanted to suggest that maybe the motion -- a more appropriate motion -- because extending the current COPCN does not include Big Corkscrew. A more appropriate motion may be to request the county to approve the proposed COPCN that does include the Big Corkscrew service delivery area. And as far as I know, they're -- the expiration date on a COPCN is not set by statute. So the county can put any expiration they want on it. COMMISSIONER HENNING: It's a two-year. CHIEF ANDERSON: Is that in the statute? COMMISSIONER HENNING: Yes. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yes, there's a -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: And the Board of Commissioners cannot reconsider an item. It's past due. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. Again, is there any other public comment before we call this motion? CHIEF ANDERSON: The Board has reconsidered. They do have a time to reconsider when they've made a vote. The Board has used that in the past. Commissioner Nance used that within a month or two of him coming in office. COMMISSIONER HENNING: It's -- the time has expired. CHIEF ANDERSON: North Collier requested you to reconsider it within the time limit in the county ordinance, and they were wrongfully denied. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Wrongfully denied. Thank you, Chief. Page 88 January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER FEDER: Doug Fee. MR. FEE: I'll be brief. Doug Fee. Question is for Chief Kopka and Leo Ochs. We're talking about the interlocal agreement. Are all interlocal agreements today regarding EMS, fire, sheriff, per district or municipality, are they word for word the same barring the map? So right now you're wanting us to -- you're wanting the situation to go to an interlocal agreement but, in fact, those that are in place right now are not consistent. So you're trying to create a one -- an efficient system, but that which you're under right now is not efficient. How do you get there? Do you go down and create a new blanket interlocal agreement and get those out there, which takes time? You need all of the municipalities to go through this with you. And, two, you already have a CP -- COPCN which is in place with one district, that that could be the -- that's the document that you can go forward with others and make it consistent. Thank you. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. Comment, too, from the Board here, and then we're going to call the question. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Do you mind, Chris? COMMISSIONER CROS SAN: No. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I can't support this motion because I have no idea what an interlocal agreement looks like at this point. We don't know what the financial impact of it is. We don't know what the parameters are. Doug Fee is right, there isn't a standard interlocal agreement that we can look at and say, that's the deal. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Nor the legal. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: And here's where you're at. We're four days away from the expiration time. We know what the COPCN looks like. We know that it's worked. You've got four days. There's no way we're going to be able to negotiate an interlocal agreement in four days. We can't even agree to disagree in four hours here. So, you know, I can't support it. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Commissioner Crossan. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Just real quick. You note -- and this is a question for the lawyers as well -- is if we have the same thing in mind, Page 89 January 25, 2016 Commissioner Henning, as I do and as you do as getting the answer, can't we come together as a board for everybody out here and just go to the courts quickly and just say, hey, what do you guys think on this? You know, let's move this up. This is -- this is -- this is about everybody. And if we could move that together quickly -- that way we don't have reservation and you guys don't have reservation -- and extend this COPCN. I don't want to kick this bucket down anymore. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: I don't want to be in the same things, you know. I just want to focus on that, and then go from there. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Thank you, Commissioner. I'm going to call the question. Again, everybody -- all those in favor, signify by saying aye. COMMISSIONER McGOWAN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BURKE: Aye. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Aye. CHAIRMAN FIALA: All those opposed, like sign? COMMISSIONER CHAO: Aye. COMMISSIONER HANSON: Aye. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Aye. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Aye. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Aye. I believe it passes -- no, I mean fails, 5-3. Is my understanding -- who voted for it? COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: I need somebody to tell me what the motion is again. COMMISSIONER CHAO: It's your motion. COMMISSIONER FEDER: It was your motion, sir. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: We're voting on my motion? All right. COMMISSIONER FEDER: It was your motion. It failed 5-3. Having said that, before -- COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Interlocal agreement -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: Excuse me. Before we got into that discussion, we had offered over to the county, and the county was having their discussion. I'd like them to get a chance to continue that. Page 90 January 25, 2016 CHAIRMAN FIALA: You know what, we are going to break for lunch right this minute because we need to give our court reporter another break. COMMISSIONER HENNING: I cannot come back. If we're going to take a lunch, I cannot come back. I have other obligations that I need to do. And I just want to reiterate what I said. And thank you for your comments, Commissioner Crossan. I want to talk to the County Attorney to see what can be done to step it up quickly. And after my conversation, I want to have a -- I'm going to make a motion during the Board of County Commissioners meeting and see what the will of the majority of the Board is. COMMISSIONER NANCE: I will support that. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Make a motion. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. And our meeting is tomorrow, by the way. COMMISSIONER HENNING: The meeting is tomorrow. I understand. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Well, I think that's going to be a problem because we're supposed to be -- I mean, if we don't resolve anything here today, it's an impasse, and -- COMMISSIONER HANSON: Commissioner Henning? COMMISSIONER HILLER: -- you go to litigation. This is not a procedure that -- are we extending this meeting with this board into tomorrow? Procedurally, I think this is incorrect. CHAIRMAN FIALA: When we get back -- you can talk with the County Attorney about that. When we get back -- COMMISSIONER HILLER: I'm going to talk to both of them. CHAIRMAN FIALA: -- he can advise us as to what we're going to do. COMMISSIONER HILLER: I don't think we can do what's being proposed, because we need both boards here by law -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: But we really need to -- I'm sorry. We're both talking at the same time. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Sorry. CHAIRMAN FIALA: We really need to take a break so our court reporter can get these minutes and take a break herself. MR. OCHS: Madam Chair, are you breaking for 10 minutes for a court reporter break? Page 91 January 25, 2016 CHAIRMAN FIALA: Well, I was saying for lunch, but I don't know if that will work. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Ten minutes for a court reporter break. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Let's break for lunch. Let's do an hour. COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: I thought somebody else had this room. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Let's break for lunch for an hour. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Leo, is there a lunch there to break to? MR. OCHS: Not right now, ma'am, but we can certainly go rustle something up here pretty quick. CHAIRMAN FIALA: I thought you were ordering something, Leo. MR. OCHS: No, ma'am. We don't have it here right now. But I'm looking at our board here for some consensus. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Excuse me. Can we not make a motion to give -- we have a -- No. 8 says action by -- well, No. 8, in fact, North Collier went ahead of us. Action by Collier County Board of County Commissioners, if any. Let's take action. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Yes. I'll make a motion. I'll make a motion that we table this decision and have a discussion and a vote at the Board of Commissioners meeting tomorrow. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Second. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Objection. That can't happen in the absence of the fire commission board. This process is mandated by statute. There is a way this has to be done, and it has to be in the presence of both boards. We can't separate ourselves, have our own meeting where they are not in an equal position to us. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Okay. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. I have a motion on the floor and a second. Any further comment? COMMISSIONER HENNING: Boy, the lawyers are really talking, aren't they? CHAIRMAN FIALA: I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER HENNING: Nothing. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. Commissioner Taylor? COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Yeah. No, I just -- I would like to call the question. Page 92 January 25, 2016 CHAIRMAN FIALA: I have a motion on the floor and a second. Any further comment? COMMISSIONER HILLER: Yes. I'd like -- I'd like an opinion from both counsels on this, because I think this is a procedural issue which -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: You already made you opinion. COMMISSIONER HILLER: I would like an opinion from both attorneys. MR. KLATZKOW: Commissioner Hiller? Commissioner Hiller, I understand what you're saying. You guys are all over the place today. COMMISSIONER HILLER: Can you please -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Boy, you've got that right. COMMISSIONER HILLER: This is a serious issue. MR. KLATZKOW: The question is whether the fire district's going to object to it. That's what I'm trying to figure out. COMMISSIONER HILLER: And I would think they would. MR. KLATZKOW: Well -- but you're not their attorney. MS. DONALDSON: Potentially -- obviously, I have to talk to the Chair. The statute is clear that if we don't reach an agreement at today's meeting, then we have to -- we're forced to go into mediation. If it's open -- if my board is open to it, to agree to the one-day extension and if the county does not grant the COPCN extension, the current North Naples service delivery area extension tomorrow, then we'll be deemed -- it's an impasse, and then we can go to mediation. That gives you time. It gives us certainty of a day, and then if we don't get the result, which is an extension, then we're at an impasse and we go to mediation, and we're under 164 the rest of the way. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. To help out, I will move that we -- MS. DONALDSON: I see miss -- I see -- COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I disagree. There's a process, and I don't think you can change the -- this is a process -- COMMISSIONER CHAO: We have to do public notice. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: That's true, too. This is a process that the county demanded. This came from the county. We're here because of the demand. MR. KLATZKOW: This is a process that's statutorily mandated, sir, and Page 93 January 25, 2016 you know that. You guys bypassed it to begin with, so let's not get into that. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: Let's try to be a little more civil. MS. DONALDSON: So could I just say -- COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: You could have waived that demand, and you know that. And so my point is, is bifurcating this process, I think, is incorrect. I can't support it. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Ms. Donaldson, would you like -- did you try and say something there? MS. DONALDSON: I was just going to say statute does allow the parties to move dates beyond, but obviously if the Board does not want to do the day -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: My concern is bifurcation, but if the Board needs this, is there an option to extend or to table -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Well, we have a motion on the floor and a second. MR. KLATZKOW: You can always -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: -- and reconvene as both boards? MR. KLATZKOW: You can always declare an impasse right now. That would start the mediation process. And tomorrow, if you want to discuss anything the Board wants to discuss, you can discuss it. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Let's do that. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Henning, your -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: Yeah. I mean, I don't care. I just -- I need a little bit of time to talk to legal counsel. That's all -- that's all I want to do here. CHAIRMAN FIALA: So your motion is still on the floor and a second, and we're about to vote. Do you want to -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: And I think where we would end up being by that is declaring an impasse, is what we're saying now. CHAIRMAN FIALA: I know. That's what I'm just trying to ask him. Please. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: We have a motion -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Did you want to declare an impasse instead? COMMISSIONER HENNING: No. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Oh, okay. You want to keep your motion on the floor as-is? Page 94 l January 25, 2016 COMMISSIONER HENNING: Yeah. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. MS. DONALDSON: Madam Chair, I don't mean to interrupt. So the fire district board is going to have to agree to the extension under the statute or we need to declare it's an impasse. CHAIRMAN FIALA: I see. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Well, let's take our -- MS. DONALDSON: It is -- one party can't deem it to be moving on and the other party hasn't agreed to it. I mean, the statute -- because we're within the time requirements, and we're allowed to have one meeting unless the parties agree to additional meetings. COMMISSIONER HILLER: But here's the issue that I have. If the decision is made to have an additional meeting, it has to be noticed. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Microphone. COMMISSIONER HILLER: I'm sorry. It has to be noticed by their board. We have a meeting tomorrow, but their board doesn't have a noticed meeting tomorrow, and they have to be present to continue in this forum in this fashion. I mean, they all have to come to tomorrow's meeting if we're going to continue this to tomorrow's meeting by mutual agreement, and then you have to notice the public that your board is going to be at our meeting to continue this discussion tomorrow. COMMISSIONER FEDER: We did not -- we didn't meet noticing requirements, and we've got four days before -- COMMISSIONER HILLER: I don't see how you are legally -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: You need to ask your attorney, because I found out a lot of opinions from this board is not true. You have an attorney that you're paying, so you might want to ask. So I call my motion. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Let's -- Madam Chair, may we vote on this and then -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: That's just what I said. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Thank you. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Call for the motion. And I've said, or I started to Page 95 January 25, 2016 say, all in favor, signify by saying aye. COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Aye. COMMISSIONER NANCE: Aye. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Aye. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Aye. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Opposed, like sign? COMMISSIONER HILLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. 4-1 vote. COMMISSIONER HILLER: This is illegal. It's illegal. MS. DONALDSON: Madam Chair -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Yes. MS. DONALDSON: And I need to have North Collier's board vote, or it's an impasse. COMMISSIONER HILLER: But how are you going to physically get them into our boardroom and notice the public? The public has a right to know that they are going to convene tomorrow. And we can't have this meeting continued without them being present. MS. DONALDSON: Commissioner, there's flexibility within the statute, and I think that if it's solely based on -- not a continuation of today's meeting but solely based on the action taken by your board tomorrow, it's not a -- what I thought, it would not be a continuation of this meeting. It would solely be -- COMMISSIONER HILLER: So they can convene and speak? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Yeah. Unfortunately, what I think I heard here -- and I'm going to defer again to legal and to the rest of this board. What I heard was that we made a -- and passed a motion that would have said if you extended the COPCN, we will pursue legal analysis and input. The decision I think this board has made is you want to pull out of this meeting, convene as a group, and make a decision. What that on the surface seems to do is say that we declare it an impasse, and then if you take action that extends the COPCN, that changes what comes after the issue of the impasse. If not, then we continue forward. The other one is, somehow we figure out how, with four days in front of us, at no ability to go out and publicly notice -- I don't know how we go the other, but I'm open to whatever motion comes from this board. Right now, I think, unfortunately, we -- the only motion we have is one to Page 96 January 25, 2016 declare an impasse if, in fact, that is the vote that was just made by the Board of County Commissioners. MS. DONALDSON: And, Commissioner, we actually don't have to declare an impasse. It states, "if no agreement is reached." COMMISSIONER FEDER: Then it is one, okay. MS. DONALDSON: And there's not -- COMMISSIONER FEDER: Then we don't have to declare it. MS. DONALDSON: It appears not to have an agreement. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Then do I have any motion on this board to continue this meeting even though we have no ability to provide sufficient public notice, especially with the four-day -- COMMISSIONER BURKE: Continue the meeting? COMMISSIONER HENNING: When is your next meeting, your regular meeting? COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: The next meeting is tomorrow (sic). COMMISSIONER FEDER: Our next meeting is next month. COMMISSIONER McGOWAN: February 1 lth. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: I just have a question, Laura. Do you think that legally this could go forward tomorrow, and -- that's what you said earlier about -- as far as the noticing requirements? That's what you said? MS. DONALDSON: No. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Oh, no. MS. DONALDSON: I would not recommend -- COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: You wouldn't. MS. DONALDSON: -- this commissioners (sic) show up for a sunshine meeting tomorrow with no notice -- COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Okay. MS. DONALDSON: -- as independent special districts have to give seven days' notice unless it's a health, safety, and welfare issue. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm here to get this done. Let's get this done. I mean -- and there are half steps that can be taken. For the life of me, I don't understand why can't take a half step and -- COMMISSIONER HENNING: We just did. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: But this is a health, safety issue, correct? COMMISSIONER HANSON: Commissioner, I'll try to be very brief. Page 97 January 25, 2016 Your County Attorney has said that it could take up to, you know -- it would be six months to a year. Let's hope -- if we could try to move it along as quickly as possible, if you people would be willing to give us our COPCN for, say, nine months. That is before there's a re-election, if you are concerned about that, and sort of a time in between. So if we get -- if we could get nine months to have this stay as-is, would you -- CHAIRMAN FIALA: Somebody's talking in back. Could you please be a little quiet, because it's hard for our court stenographer to hear both conversations. COMMISSIONER HANSON: Can you hear me all right? CHAIRMAN FIALA: Go ahead. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Do you want me to answer the question? COMMISSIONER HANSON: Pardon? If you would, yes, possibly give nine months. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Would you like me to answer the question? I want -- COMMISSIONER HANSON: I will stop now and have you answer the question. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. I understand the question. I want to resolve this, before I leave office, for North Collier to provide advanced life support. And we're going to do it under a countywide system no matter what. It has to be that way. COMMISSIONER HANSON: Well, you would still be there nine months from now, wouldn't you? COMMISSIONER HENNING: I just answered your question. COMMISSIONER HANSON: You would like to. COMMISSIONER HENNING: I want to resolve this prior to leaving office. COMMISSIONER HANSON: Yes. Well, that would be prior still. COMMISSIONER HENNING: Yeah. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Nance? COMMISSIONER FEDER: Okay. There's no motion from this board. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Commissioner Nance? COMMISSIONER NANCE: Yeah. Let me put the shoe on the other foot. Page 98 January 25, 2016 What about if North Collier Fire agrees -- since your legal staff and your thinking is the one that created this legal issue, you are the one that raised your own question to prove that you, yourself, were doing -- getting ready to do something illegal, which I find wonderfully entertaining. But suppose you entered into an interlocal agreement with Collier County until the Court ruled that you couldn't? COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: The problem with that is that exposes every single commissioner to individual liability. COMMISSIONER NANCE: There's no establishment of that fact. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm sorry. I didn't -- COMMISSIONER NANCE: You were the one that said you wanted to ask the question. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'm sorry. I did not realize you weren't done. COMMISSIONER NANCE: I'm not done. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: I'll be quiet and I'll listen. COMMISSIONER NANCE: I'm not done. You're the one that asked the question. Nobody knows the answer. If everybody knew the answer, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But, you know, you operated under that assumption before. You operated under an interlocal agreement before, and everything was fine until you decided that asking this question was going to conveniently produce the only result that you could possibly have was to get what you were seeking, which is a COPCN. So if you calmly entered into the same -- for the same period of time you're asking us to have faith, if you entered into an interlocal agreement, if the Court then ruled that no, no, I'm sorry, we can't operate like that, I'm sure that will cast a whole 'nother perspective on the actions of the county and yourself. COMMISSIONER LOMBARDO: We operated with a COPCN for five years. That's the safest path we all know. That's a path we're all comfortable with. You're asking us to do something that we see the statute says we cannot do. And so, to me, when you're asking me to take on personal liability, and I'm telling you that if we could do it the other way -- and we'll find out the answer on whether we can do an interlocal or not, but that way we're all insulated and we're doing the right thing. That's the logical path, what we've Page 99 January 25, 2016 been doing all along. You didn't have an objection for five years. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Commissioner Hennings, I just -- I echo what you say. COMMISSIONER HENNING: There's no S on there. COMMISSIONER CROSSAN: Sorry; Henning, sorry. I echo what you say that we have to find -- and if it's by the end of your tenure, you know, that's fine. And I humbly ask you guys to extend the COPCN. And let's just get this right. Extend it for a period of time, whether it's six months or nine months, and let's get this done. Let's get this done, you know, together collectively. COMMISSIONER HILLER: I make a motion to extend the COPCN for an additional nine months. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Do I have a second? (No response.) CHAIRMAN FIALA: The motion dies for lack of a second. Okay. COMMISSIONER FEDER: Commissioners, appreciate your time. COMMISSIONER HILLER: So that means we're at an impasse? So you're going to move -- I just want to clarify for the record. We are at an impasse and you're moving to mediation; is that correct? Ms. Donaldson? Could you please state that for the record. MR. KLATZKOW: That is correct. COMMISSIONER HILLER: All right. So there is an impasse, and we're moving to mediation. There's no resolution. And in four days the residents of North Collier, which is North Naples and Big Corkscrew, will lose 100 ALS paramedics. CHAIRMAN FIALA: Okay. COMMISSIONER HILLER: It's shameful. CHAIRMAN FIALA: So before everybody walks out of the room, I'll say this meeting is adjourned. ***** Page 100 January 25, 2016 There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 1:55 p.m. BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTROL 1749 DONNA FIALA, Chairman ATTEST: DWIGHTFE. BROCK, CLERK ff Dc l� C. . Attest as to a •signature 01. These minutes proved by the Board on a--1411 )01,(,, , as presented or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC., BY TERRI LEWIS, COURT REPORTER AND NOTARY PUBLIC. Page 101