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CLB Minutes 02/20/2002 RFebruary 20, 2002 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida, February 20, 2002 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:05 a.m. In REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN' ABSENT: GARY HAYES SARA BETH WHITE WALTER CRAWFORD, IV MICHAEL BARIL RICHARD JOSLIN KEN LLOYD KENNETH DUNNE LES DICKSON ALSO PRESENT: PATRICK NEALE, Attorney for the Board ROBERT ZACHARY, Assistant County Attorney THOMAS BARTOE, License Compliance Officer Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: February 20, 2002 TIME: 9:00 A.M. ADMINISTRATION BUILDING COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: December 19, 2001 Vo DISCUSSION: Presentation of Sunshine Law/Public Records/Ethics by County Attorney's Office. VI. NEW BUSINESS: David Emerson - Req. to qualify a 2nd entity. Timothy D. Caughenbaugh- Req. to qualify a 2nd entity. Natalie L. Schaub - Request to be granted Roof Coat, Roof Paint & Roof Clean license with 9 months experience as a Supervisor. Jose Camarillo - Req. to be granted Irrigation/Sprinkler license without exams. VII. OLD BUSINESS: VIII. PUBLIC HEARINGS: IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: March 20, 2002 February 20, 2002 CHAIRMAN HAYES' I want to call the meeting to order, Collier County Contractors' Licensing, February 20th, 9:05 a.m. Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings pertaining thereto and, therefore, may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made, which record includes that testimony and evidence upon which an appeal is to be based. I'd like to start roll call to my right. MR. DUNNE: Ken Dunne, present. MR. BARIL: Michael Baril. MR. CRAWFORD: Walter Crawford. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Gary Hayes. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MS. WHITE: Sara Beth White. MR. LLOYD: Kenneth Lloyd. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do we have any additions or deletions to the agenda? MR. BARTOE: Good morning. Mr. Chairman, board members, for the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County licensing compliance officer. We have under discussion a deletion. The county attorney's office would like to postpone their presentation. They could not be here this morning, and they'd like to reschedule it for another meeting. And, I believe we should put it under discussion -- I have an addition. We have in the audience Kathy Pope who's a state certified general contractor that would like to address the board, and I have more additions. Under old business I have three items. The second entity form is the first item. We have to come up with a fee to charge. The second item, Mr. Neale wants to discuss procedures for hearings. Page 2 February 20, 2002 The third item, Mr. Zachary wants to discuss the ordinance amendments. CHAIRMAN HAYES' Okay. So we're going to use those two items -- those three items as old business, not under discussion? MR. BARTOE: I put it under "old business." If you want it under discussion, it doesn't matter. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I was just going to suggest, if you had it under discussion, if we moved it down to after reports anyway. So this will do just fine. We just won't have any -- any discussion up there. I'll just move the motion for discussion down low. Okay. MR. BARTOE: Sounds good, and staff has no more changes to the agenda. CHAIRMAN HAYES' Any other additions or deletions to the agenda? I need a motion for approval of the agenda. MR. JOSLIN' So moved, Joslin. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion, need a second. MS. WHITE: Second, White. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and second. All in favor. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. Before we go onto the minutes, I would like to introduce our new members to the board. We have Michael Baril and Kenneth Dunne, our new members to the board. We welcome you with open arms. MR. DUNNE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We try not to be extremely formal, but we try to be as straight up as we can be. Don't hesitate to participate. If you feel like you need to make a motion or add to a discussion, it's Page 3 February 20, 2002 all welcome. MR. DUNNE: Okay. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Approval of the minutes of December 19th. I.need a motion. MR. LLOYD: I make a motion that we approve the minutes, Lloyd. CHAIRMAN HAYES' I have a motion. I need a second. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and second. All in favor. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. Okay. Under new business, David Emerson, request to qualify second entity. Are you here, Mr. Emerson? MR. EMERSON: Yup. CHAIRMAN HAYES' Would you come up to the podium please, sir. Because everything that you're going to be telling us is going to be entered as an evidence .for the reason for our decision, I'm going to have to ask you to get sworn in. Our court reporter will take care of it. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning, sir. MR. EMERSON: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES' Your name for the record? MR. EMERSON: David Emerson. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being here? MR. EMERSON: The title of business, new business, second business. Page 4 February 20, 2002 CHAIRMAN HAYES' What's your reason for wanting to do that? MR. EMERSON: Money. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You can't make money in your first one? MR. EMERSON: You can make money in both of them. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's double management, though. MR. EMERSON: Yeah, but we got help now. The first one I don't have any help. CHAIRMAN HAYES' You currently qualify with what company? MR. EMERSON' Emerson Electric of Southwest Florida. CHAIRMAN HAYES' And -- and you're looking to qualify who? MR. EMERSON: KVA Electric. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What's the difference between the two companies? MR. EMERSON: Partners in the second one. The first one I'm by myself. MR. JOSLIN: How long has Emerson Electric been in business? MR. EMERSON: Excuse me? MR. JOSLIN: How long has Emerson Electric been in business? MR. EMERSON: Year and a half now. MR. JOSLIN: Year and a half. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, is there anything specific or any any concerns that staff may have? MR. BARTOE: Office staff advised me -- and I have not had time to review this; I have been on vacation -- that they needed a -- because Mr. Emerson is not sole owner of this second entity, that Page 5 February 20, 2002 they need a credit report on Mr. Jenkins and Mr. Russo, and that supposedly Mr. Emerson was to bring those to this meeting and pass them out to you. CHAIRMAN HAYES' COURT REPORTER: You have them? He's made copies of it. May I have a copy, too, please. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're in partners with these two other gentlemen, Ken Jenkins and Vinny Russo? MR. EMERSON' Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES' Are you equal partners with them? MR. EMERSON: Excuse me? CHAIRMAN HAYES' Are you equal partners with them? MR. EMERSON: I can't hear you. CHAIRMAN HAYES' Are you equal partners with them? MR. EMERSON: Not really, no. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Mr. Neale, this is probably our first second entity that we've entertained with the new form. MR. NEALE: Right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to ask you to ride along with us, perhaps, and steer us through some of these things in case we seem a little bit dumb about it. MR. NEALE: Sure. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We have -- your form is as new to you as it is to us. MR. EMERSON: You have to speak up for me. I'm hard of hearing. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your form that you filled out for second entity -- MR. EMERSON: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- is new for us as well. MR. EMERSON: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So we're going to try to take this thing Page 6 February 20, 2002 through here and -- and try to act as smooth as possible. MR. EMERSON: Okay. MR. DUNNE: I have a question. Sir -- sir, how many employees do you have? MR. EMERSON: With which company? MR. DUNNE: The company that we're looking at here to qualify. MR. EMERSON: Four. Right? Four. MR. DUNNE: You don't have -- MR. EMERSON: Plus three and one additional. MR. DUNNE: Okay. So you don't have any other electricians? MR. EMERSON: No. Us three -- we're all -- us three of us are electricians, and there's one other. MR. DUNNE: Okay. Do you plan on hiring any other electricians, 'cause it says here that -- MR. EMERSON: Oh, of course, yeah. Absolutely. MR. DUNNE: Yeah. And you're going to carry workmen's comp, and have you -- do you have workmen's compensation, or do you have the exclusion? MR. EMERSON: I'm exempt. MR. DUNNE' Exactly. CHAIRMAN HAYES' Anything that is said out there, you'll either have to say it directly to him or come up here and be sworn in as well. Okay. It has to go on record. Mr. Neale, I'm trying to go through this thing as well, but I don't see as part of this new form the responsibility for financial management, the financially responsible officer. MR. NEALE: Well, there -- you know, we eliminated financial officer, but what it should have -- MR. ZACHARY: It's got toward the end -- Mr. Chairman, there's a resolution of authorization. I think it's at the Page 7 February 20, 2002 last -- last page of our form, the county's form. MR. NEALE' Where they authorize him to -- MR. ZACHARY: Authorize him to act for the company, the KVA, the new entity. MR. NEALE: It's after the last page. There's an affidavit whereby he says that he has full authority to supervise, and then there's a subsequent resolution of authorization where the corporation authorizes him and gives him full authority to act in all matters. CHAIRMAN HAYES' I see it now. MR. ZACHARY: Page 9. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Emerson, so you are aware of your financial responsibilities in this new company? MR. EMERSON: Yup. I'm aware of all responsibility. CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) Any other questions from the board? CHAIRMAN HAYES: I need a motion. MR. BARTOE: I have a question. I see that all three owners have signed a notice of election to be exempt from workers' comp. What about their employee? MR. EMERSON: Employees will have workmen's comp. MR. BARTOE: I see no workers' comp insurance with the package. CHAIRMAN HAYES: There's not a base certificate? MR. BARTOE: I see general liability near the end. MR. CRAWFORD: The package refers to just three employees. You had said three. You had said three. He had said four. MR. EMERSON: Well, we ain't got the business going yet, but there will be. MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. I'm satisfied with that. MR. EMERSON: Plans in the immediate future, but-- is what Page 8 February 20, 2002 I'm answering his question. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a motion. I see nothing wrong with the packet. The credit reports are all in line for all three gentlemen. So I'd like to make a motion that we approve this application. MR. CRAWFORD: Second, Crawford. CHAIRMAN HAYES' I have a motion and second. Any further discussion on the board? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Calling for the vote. All in favor. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well, Mr. Emerson. That's as easy as it gets. MR. BARTOE: I woUld -- I would like to make the statement to Mr. Emerson and everyone else here requesting something similar today. You will not be able to come into the office until tomorrow to obtain your license for this second entity because I have everyone's packet here. The office staff won't have them available till tomorrow morning. MR. EMERSON: Yup. Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you. Timothy D. Caughenbaugh, request to qualify second entity. Are you here, sir? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: We have the packet as part of our agenda. You don't have any idea what happened, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: No idea at all, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I suggest that we just table it until he is present. Page 9 February 20, 2002 Natalie L. Schaub, request to be granted roof coat, roof paint, and roof cleaning license with a nine-month experience as a supervisor. Are you here? MS. SCHAUB: Yes, I am. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning. MS. SCHAUB: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to have to ask you to be sworn in as well. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name for the record? MS. SCHAUB: Natalie Lowe Schaub. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Schaub? MS. SCHAUB: Schaub, correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I apologize for the mispronunciation. MS. SCHAUB: That's how I pronounce it. My husband may say it a different way. So that's okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your reason for being here this morning? MS. SCHAUB: What we're looking for is our company has been in business for about a year. It's a -- we're a Subchapter S Corporation. My husband has experience. I took the business law class that -- in order for him to pressure clean the roofs, and I passed, and I also am doing some hands-on pressure cleaning since there's only two owners of the company and we're quite small. I help out on the weekends as needed. So what we're looking for, because I only have the year experience, is a variance to do the roof pressure cleaning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So it's you and your husband? MS. SCHAUB: That is correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And he's also just got year's -- one-year experience? Page 10 February 20, 2002 MS. SCHAUB: Well, correct. He has the year approximately, correct. MR. CRAWFORD: Which license are you operating under now? MS. SCHAUB' We're currently an occupational license just for the walls and sidewalks and lanai only. MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. MR. BARTOE: They need our competency card to be able to do roofs. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And how short are they, Mr. Bartoe, of qualifying for that? MR. BARTOE: I believe the ordinance says two year's experience. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It is. So you've 12 of 24 under your belt? MS. SCHAUB: That is correct. MR. BARIL: Mr. Chairman, I have a question. MS. SCHAUB: Sure. MR. BARIL: Do you have any warranties for water-tight roofing? MS. SCHAUB: We're actually not going to be doing any painting on the roofs, even though that's part of what this is for. We're actually going to be doing the pressure cleaning, and we do have insurance in place also. MR. BARIL' Do you warranty your work to -- to Waterproof existing roofs that are leaking? Is that part of your coating? MS. SCHAUB: We're not actually doing -- no. All we're doing pretty much at this point is just the pressure cleaning of it and, obviously, if there's any leakage because of that, we do have insurance that has been in place since operation of business of last February. Page 11 February 20, 2002 MR. BARIL: So you're not actually going out and repairing roofs. MS. SCHAUB: No, we're not. MR. BARIL: -- that are leaking with your coating process? MS. SCHAUB: No, we are not. MR. CRAWFORD: I think our problem is that that -- the license that you're requesting would authorize you to do that -- MS. SCHAUB: Correct. MR. CRAWFORD: -- even though you may not choose to do SO. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, we've been known to place restrictions on a license in the past, but what I'm concerned about MS. SCHAUB: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- is I'm sitting here recognizing the ordinance -- MS. SCHAUB' Correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES' -- and requirements that the ordinance places in place, trying to figure out why should we be interested in granting you a variance. MS. SCHAUB: Okay. I guess I can state pretty much -- you know, obviously I'm an honest person and integrity, both my husband and myself, where we do quality work. I've worked in the banking industry for 12-plus years. I've been multiple fingerprinted. I've been background checked. I've been drug tested and everything you can imagine, and we're an honest company that's out there. We've done work for people. As you'll see, we have some references there. Since I completed that documentation back in November, I have other people who have stated that if we need additional references I can give out their phone numbers for the work that my husband and myself have done. I've actually had to help him on the weekends quite a bit of time, which is quite exciting to run a Page 12 February 20, 2002 pressure cleaner. Not the most glamorous job you'd want to do. MR. CRAWFORD: So, Mr. Bartoe, so I'm clear, the requirements for this license are two years of experience, business and law portion of the exam, and that's it? MR. BARTOE: That's it. And I see by the packet she scored an 80 on the business and law. MR. DUNNE: I have a question. MS. SCHAUB: Sure. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do you-- you have some experience in cleaning roofs at this point in time? MS. SCHAUB: No. We have none at this point because we obviously can't be cleaning roofs because we're not granted that licensing. We're actually strictly abiding by all rules and regulations and the laws that are out there. MR. DUNNE: That's good. I wasn't-- I was -- are you cognizant or aware of the inherent safety problems in working on a roof and you or your husband are aware of the OSHA requirements? And, you know, falling off the roof is -- MS. SCHAUB: It's intense, yes. And there is a safety harness that once this license is granted that we've looked at purchasing, and I'm not sure how it rigs up. I have no idea on that. I know how to do a few little bits of-- you know, give me a pressure cleaner, and I can run it, but there's a safety harness that I believe attaches to the vehicle so if he falls off or I fall off. I -- I'm doing -- what I would be doing it on, like, scaffolding type -- not actually on the roof. I hope not. MR. DUNNE: Okay. MS. SCHAUB: Okay. MS. WHITE: I'm not -- excuse me -- I'm not quite sure that you answered Chairman Hayes' question -- MS. SCHAUB: Okay. MS. WHITE: -- when he asked you exactly why it is you Page 13 February 20, 2002 thought we should grant you a variance. MS. SCHAUB: Well, part of the -- and we're trying to operate this new company that my husband wants to initiate, and I'm supporting him 100 percent in all areas as any spouse would do. And what we've done is so far we've been operating the business, and here we are just pressure cleaning the sides. I didn't realize that it was an obstacle when I went to create all the documentation and I met with Maggie. I did not realize that it was going to be an issue because of the two years' experience when I took the actual business law class. I've invested -- you know, I went to, you know, a four-day class for that during a medical -- a medical issue of myself that I had, and ! took a class that I passed on the first time, and I felt I was back in college. So I just sort of feel that we're like trying to be as honest as possible in our business and -- you know, I just sort of feel like I'm running up against some obstacles. And I know that there's not the two years' experience; however, you know, I am trying to be as honest as possible regarding that issue, or I wouldn't be here today. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I was going to suggest, Ms. White, that that's exactly what I'm looking at with these affidavits. It's easy enough to get somebody to sign an affidavit saying you've had two years' experience and come in here with that, or when you make an application for license, it's easy enough for somebody to sign an affidavit saying that they knew them for two years and they have chosen -- not chosen that route makes me believe a little bit closer in their integrity than the normal person sometimes who may come in here and find out that you have to have two years' experience, head down the street, 7-Eleven, find somebody to swear out an affidavit for, and then come in here and plop two years' experience down in front of us. And if that's the only problem, then it wouldn't even have been an issue. Staff would have issued the license right then and Page 14 February 20, 2002 there on the face value of those affidavits. Instead, she's come in here with a short affidavit and had to face the board. So I think it attests to your integrity, and I appreciate that. MS. SCHAUB: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN HAYES: However, I'm still not totally convinced. MS. WHITE: I mean, she's got one year of experience, and our rules are two. CHAIRMAN HAYES: The truth of the matter is got one year experience in steam -- in pressure cleaning. Never been on a roof. MS. WHITE: Never been on a roof. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Once again, I appreciate that. That was a nice little move earlier from one of our board members because you can't imagine how many people come in here and say, "Oh, yeah, I've got plenty of experience. I've been on all kinds of roofs." Really? Without a license? MS. SCHAUB: That is correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you have answered the questions honestly, I believe. You know what I'm saying? MS. WHITE: I definitely appreciate that, but I'm just questioning the other side of it. You know, whether the experience is there for the citizens of Collier County for someone to be on their roof that's never been on a roof. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have to agree with you. MS. WHITE: I'm a little concerned about that one. MR. BARTOE: If I may, I believe when this section -- this license was added to the ordinance -- and maybe Mr. Neale can correct me if I'm wrong. I believe if-- if people -- you know, showed that they had a cleaning license, they had X amount of days to be grandfathered in; is that correct, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: I believe so, but I'm not 100 percent sure on that one. That's-- Page 15 February 20, 2002 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think Mr. Crawford actually brought up a real good point earlier. Cleaning and painting are two different animals. MS. SCHAUB: That is correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm -- I'm not real comfortable with those licenses all being together to begin with. Painting a roof and pressure cleaning a roof are like new construction and remodel. They're night and day different. MR. BARTOE: And probably 90 percent of your people licensed to do it do not paint. MR. JOSLIN: How did that portion of that license or that requirement get into that particular license? How did we add that to it? MR. BARTOE: I do not know. MR. JOSLIN: How do you paint a roof?. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Neale, do you have the state statute? Do they have a license similar to that? Why they married actual physical painting and cleaning in the same -- MR. CRAWFORD: Well, it's probably because typically you would pressure clean it before you repaint it, resurface and that's -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: And that -- and I understand that. But if all I want is -- is cleaning, why should you do -- be the burden. That's kind of like some of our other licenses. You got to go through an awful lot to get a big boy license to do a little bit of work. MR. CRAWFORD: I agree. MR. NEALE: State licensure is -- this is a solely local license, so it doesn't fall under any -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: at all? MR. NEALE: No. MR. BARTOE: It's not regulated under the state statute No, sir. And I believe one of the main reasons Page 16 February 20, 2002 for putting this in the ordinance originally was due to damage that could be caused by the contractor, especially on tile roofs. And the way it was before, if we got any complaints, we could do nothing about it because they were not licensed through our department. And now we can -- if they're properly licensed, we can work to resolve the matter if there's damage. MR. NEALE: Mr. Bartoe is exactly right on that. As I remember the process of it being adopted, and the process was such that this board had received -- staff had received a number of complaints on contractors who did roof cleaning or painting and damage to tile roofs and -- or roofs generally, and there was no way the board could go after them. So the board created this license category. MS. WHITE: Does this also -- the painting, does this also include the roof coating that they're doing so much around town -- that's considered painting? MR. NEALE' That's part of the -- part of what's permitted. This is a roof coating, painting, and cleaning license. So it's a fairly broad scope. MS. WHITE: It sure is. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, we're missing our resident roofer this morning. He would probably be able to add something to this particular case. In any event, we have to go forward with it. Mr. Bartoe, in the past I'm sure that we have, for one reason or another, issued licenses with similar circumstances, but we've also been placing restrictions on those licenses. Is there any way that we could possibly entertain the possibility of granting the license with the restrictions of nonpainting and allowing these people to continue with their life? MR. BARTOE: I feel you could, but Mr. Neale could probably direct you better on that. Page 17 February 20, 2002 MR. NEALE: As you correctly said, the board has in the past issued restricted certificates of competency. The example listed in the ordinance is that an applicant for a certificate is a floor covering installation contractor. They have the required experience of laying carpets and/or tiles but not wood flooring. So they can be restricted to only one portion, and I know this board in the past has -- has granted licenses that are restricted to certain areas of the scope of the license. MR. CRAWFORD: I hate to be the bad guy here, and I know roof cleaning probably isn't that difficult, but there are concerns about breaking tiles, about falling off, about safety, and I think without any roof experience at all this board would be foolish to grant that license. Perhaps you could gain some experience and come back, and then there would be something for us to put our feet into, but right now there's no experience, and you're a very honest and capable person. But, Mr. Chairman, I make a motion that we deny this request until we see some type of experience. MS. WHITE: White, second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on the topic? (No response.) MR. JOSLIN: I have one thing to ask -- to ask. With this particular license in place, the way it stands now, how -- if she's only doing pressure cleaning on lanais and patios, outside ground level work, how would someone gain experience? MR. BARTOE: The only way would be to be an employee of a licensed company. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Go to work for somebody. MR. BARTOE: The only legal way. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's the general way it happens anyway, apprenticeship, programming under a licensed contractor for Page 18 February 20, 2002 a length of time and -- MR. NEALE: Helpers, roofers -- you know. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Exactly. MR. NEALE: And the plumbing and electrical have organized apprenticeship programs. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I realize, Ms. Schaub, that we're not talking rocket science here. MS. SCHAUB: That's correct. Obviously, it's not rocket science. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So much so that there's not even a technical exam for it. So the only thing qualifying you to do this type of work is your experience. MS. SCHAUB: Exactly. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Had you had an exam, a technical exam, for it and passed that and still been short your experience, I think this board would probably feel a little bit different about it. But since there's not any way of testing your skill in the particular trade -- again, I know it's not rocket science, but we are charged with maintaining some form of integrity in the licensing industry. And I think Mr. Crawford has just -- right on target that this board would have a hard time based on nothing. MS. SCHAUB: Okay. And that's fine. Just note that we did try to do the legal thing of going through and having someone sponsor us. Obviously, competition is really tough out there, and no one was willing to do that. I contacted four companies just so you know. CHAIRMAN HAYES' There is no question about it, and I really am not thrilled about rewarding your honesty with a negative; however, something needs to be in place, some other form, and I think we'd be more than thrilled to say thank you for your honesty and integrity, and I wish we could do more. I have a motion and a second on the floor. Any further Page 19 February 20, 2002 discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: All in favor. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) I need to call for the vote. Opposed. CHAIRMAN HAYES' And your reason for being here this morning? MR. CAMARILLO. Sir, I'd like to request that the board grant me my license. I couldn't pass the test 'cause I have a speech impediment. I can't put the words together. I tried it three times, and every time I go back I do better and better, but not quite yet doing the test, the 75 percent. I'm more than equipped to do the irrigation. If the board permits me, I have some blueprints' that shows the work I'm doing, the future work I'm going to be doing with the company I'm Page 20 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I apologize at this point. MS. SCHAUB' No problem. Thank you-all for your time. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Jose Camarillo, are you here, sir? MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES' Request to be granted irrigation sprinkler license withoUt exams. Good morning. MR. CAMARILLO: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to ask you to be sworn in. MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name for the record. MR. CAMARILLO:: Jose Luis Camarillo. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Say your last name again. MR. CAMARILLO: Camarillo, like, "Amarillo" just with a February 20, 2002 working with right now. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Where are you working right now? MR. CAMARILLO: For DiVosta, right offVanderbilt Beach, DiVosta Homes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: DiVosta Homes? MR. CAMARILLO: Yes. Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What capacity are you working there now in? MR. CAMARILLO: I'm the lead man. I have seven people under me. We do the mainline irrigation system. I do the blueprints, make sure every house is properly-- for the inspections before the inspectors get there to inspect it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Are you an employee for DiVosta? MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir, at this time. MR. JOSLIN: How long have you been doing this business? MR. CAMARILLO: I've been doing the irrigation business for 15 years. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Here in Naples? MR. CAMARILLO: Right outside Naples. I think it's 858 or Oil Road-- Oil Well Road, citrus companies, that kind, and then I just moved. They work too many hours, so I decided to get a daytime job too. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Camarillo, your experience seems to be in place, and it's the test that's giving you a hard time. The concern to this board, I think, would be your ability to manage a business and handle accounts and properly estimate costs, and our concern would be to the consumer. Have you ever managed a business or-- MR. CAMARILLO: I -- most of my businesses my wife and I sit down and discuss it. We hire a personal accountant for our records; that way we won't make mistakes. He goes back and for-- Page 21 February 20, 2002 as to make sure the customers -- that's -- I'm going to get into that with the customers, and I'm going to give them a guarantee where if I make a mistake I can come back and ensure them the mistake will be with no cost to them. CHAIRMAN HAYES' What's your level of, education? MR. CAMARILLO: I went to the 11 th grade, sir, in Stuart, Florida, but it was in '75 that I attended school and then had to drop out to help my f,amily support themselves. So I.just kept to the irrigation business and other source of, work since then. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It's not like you haven't tried. I see three attempts, three separate occasions; November of' last year, January of, this year, and August of, last year. MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir. MR. DUNNE: Pardon me. Can I take a look at one of. the plan sets, Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Sure. MR. CAMARILLO: May I? This is -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Come on up. MR. CAMARILLO: -- if, anybody wants to see some more. Some of, the blueprints are f,rom last year's project that I accomplished. One of' them is the present that I'm working on, and another one blueprint is the future in a couple months that I have to be aware of'bef,ore I go bef,ore -- MR. DUNNE' Are you involved with -- when you're at DiVosta -- Island Walk, is that the one? MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir. MR. DUNNE. Are you involved with talking with the purchasing people and telling them how much pipe you need to do a certain portion of, the work? MR. CAMARILLO: No, sir. That is done in back. Everything have to be placed. You have to go to the units, and ! have another Page 22 February 20, 2002 man that does that, and I stay in front of them, make sure everything is being put properly. So there's a supervisor. I am just a foreman. MR. DUNNE: Okay. MR. CRAWFORD: The point of the question, I believe, was, do you have the ability to estimate pipe, to estimate cost? MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir. That is -- I think if there's a letter -- oh, I got a letter here that that's part of my job. I got to do inventory every week, make sure how much we're spending, and I got that letter with me. If you like to see it, I would be more than welcome to show it to you. MR. DUNNE: Yes. Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Camarillo, the licensing practice and procedure and ordinances and statutes are for a reason. What would you suggest the reason for that is other than the government wanting to make money? MR. CAMARILLO: The reason is for you to comply with coding and make you familiar with that coding. That's for the benefit of everybody, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Why do you think the testing is in place? MR. CAMARILLO: The test is to -- to give you -- see how much you know about the license you want to accomplish or attain. MS. WHITE: So your problem with the testing is the language barrier; is that correct? MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, ma'am. If you notice, every time I went I did better and better, but still not -- I read the book, like, three times, and my wife helps me with the words. And I try to get -- I want to do -- if I go back, if you deny me, I still going to be trying. I'm going to come back if I have to, but I'm -- I'm going to go back to school, take night classes, get my GED so I can help -- better help myself. Page 23 February 20, 2002 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Bartoe, is there a -- an oral exam available locally? MR. BARTOE: Yes, I believe there is. MR. CRAWFORD: That may be an option. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We -- we hoped for that in the past. I don't think that's an easy task to get into. MR. NEALE: Just for the board's consideration, in 22-184 of the Collier County Ordinance, Subsection C (as read): "The board may consider the applicant's relevant recent experience in the specific trade and based upon such experience may waive testing requirements if convinced that the applicant is qualified by experience whereby such competency -- competency testing would be superfluous." That would be for the board. MR. DUNNE: Thank you. That's very informative. Can I make a comment? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Sure. MR. DUNNE: I -- I think from the letter that I saw from DiVosta the people that you work for are very impressed with your -- your skill in doing the irrigation, and they are apparently aware that you're here, and you're apparently trying your best to do this and, hopefully, we can find a way to help this gentleman, and my comment's said there. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Dunne, in the past we have been known to consider temporary licensing based on conditions changing in the near future and a time limit on it. We have had times that an individual, like Mr. Camarillo, has been in here and they've got a job opportunity facing them within the next week or two or three, and without that job opportunity they're not going to be able to go in business for a much longer time. And we have seen fit to grant a temporary license so that he wouldn't miss the boat at that particular time, but still yet require that they come up with the qualifications at Page 24 February 20, 2002 a later date. Should they not later become qualified, then the license is revoked. There are some possible remedies and options here. My concern even with doing that is for what reason does it need to be expedited in a temporary manner? I'm going' to tell you that I'd be surprised. I agree with Mr. Neale in what you're saying when such testing would be superfluous. Doesn't that mainly apply to a lapsed license, whereas, they have had the exam perhaps at one time or something has changed in their industry, for example, needing the business and law where they didn't need it before? MR. NEALE: This board has in the past, in my memory, reviewed applications where the person has had extensive experience outside this jurisdiction and was applying for a new license and granted licenses on that basis. I believe the board has also granted a license in the past on a basis of extensive experience for someone who was unable to pass the test. I think the board has taken these steps based on the evidence presented. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm -- my memory is just not all that wonderful. I do agree with you that I can remember that we have done that, but I also was under the impression we did one or two things with it; either some form of restriction and/or temperance. It was temporary until such time as this or that was done. Now, I don't remember for sure, Mr. Bartoe. Do you remember? MR. BARTOE: Also to add to what Mr. Neale said, I remember in the past where a young gentleman only needed a business and law test for a license he was going for, and he just could not pass it, and he testified that his mother and an accountant did his books, and the board accepted that. MR. CRAWFORD: He was a carpet installer. That was about three months ago. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. Page 25 February 20, 2002 MS. WHITE: My only concern is the business and law. Because, I mean, as far as running the business, he does all the material ordering. It's noted in the DiVosta letter. MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, ma'am. MS. WHITE: He runs a crew. I'm sure he knows what he's doing. It's just this business and law aspect of it. MR. CAMARILLO: I read the book, like, three times, and I'm familiar with it, but I just can't put it into words because most of my life, like, I've been working with my hands. When you get a book, it's kind of hard for me to, you know, comprehend what they're saying. So that's why we hired a man to run our books. That way there won't be no mistake on our part or me charging anybody more than we should. So that's -- that's -- and my wife is going to help. She's going to run that. She's smarter. I'm going to do the -- the labor work. MR. CRAWFORD: What were your immediate plans for your new business? MR. CAMARILLO: Right now get all the licenses and then get more familiar with the -- with where the purchases is where I can -- then when I feel comfortable, I can give better estimates, sir. MR. CRAWFORD: But, in other words, you're not going to go to work directly for DiVosta? They will continue their own company? MR. CAMARILLO: Excuse me? CHAIRMAN HAYES: In other words, will you work for DiVosta Homes? MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: After you get this license? MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir. I'm going to work still for DiVosta -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Page 26 February 20, 2002 MR. CAMARILLO: -- probably another year until I'm sure that my business is going to pick up and make sure I'm doing it right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I would possibly entertain a temporary license. What my concern would be -- would be that if we were to recommend to issue you a temporary license, say, for perhaps one year, and at the end of one year come back before the board and without any customer complaints, Mr. Bartoe, or any other outside influence, perhaps we could make it a permanent license after that period of time if we choose to do so. I am concerned with just saying, "It's over with. You can have your license. See you around" at this point. But if we can maintain some form of surveillance and revisit this thing in a period of time, I might feel a little bit more comfortable myself as to granting maybe a temporary license. Mr. Neale, you have any thoughts on that? MR. NEALE: Well, just again, I guess I've been sitting in this chair for too long. I remember more things than most. In the past what this board has done, they've taken several approaches to these type situations. One approach the board has taken in the past was to grant a conditional license subject to the person operating the business without complaint for a period of a year to be reviewed by staff. If the staff had a complaint, then it would come back before the board. If the staff had heard no complaints and had no problems, then it would automatically be granted as a -- as a standard license, so it avoided this board having to re-review it again in a year. But it did require staff to monitor it over the period of the year and go forward there. The other thing the board has done in the past is to require the applicant to come back in a yearl present what he had done over the course of that year, and the board could review it. So the board has pretty wide latitude in that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, do you remember any of those occurrences? Page 27 February 20, 2002 MR. BARTOE: Yeah, I remember those occurrences. I don't remember anybody ever having to come back before the board because of complaints. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, one of my concerns is when that license gets issued is the word "temporary" on that puppy.'? MR. BARTOE: Whatever the board's request is, temporary, conditional. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And then next time if-- if perhaps somehow or another we missed our window of time limit, the next time that license came up for renewal the agency perhaps could see the word "temporary" and realize that this wasn't a permanent to begin with. MR. BARTOE: Correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's what I would be concerned with. MR. NEALE: It's my understanding that staff when -- when -- these licenses would have a legend on them of temporary, conditional, restricted or whatever when they come up for renewal. Staff pays special attention to those licenses, reviews them, reviews the file, and makes sure everything is cleaned up to that point. So, am I correct, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: That's correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any recommendations? MR. CRAWFORD: I think that's appropriate here, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to make a motion that we approve Mr. Camarillo's irrigation license on a conditional basis that staff will review and monitor it over a one-year period with the word "conditional" printed on the license. That's it. MS. WHITE: Second, White. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? MR. NEALE: The only thing that we -- that the board has done Page 28 February 20, 2002 in the past is set forth what the conditions were so that the staff has some guidance on that. MR. CRAWFORD: I guess the conditions would be that are -- if there are any complaints of any kind that the -- Mr. Camarillo would appear before this board and review them. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Whether the complaints were substantiated or not? MR. CRAWFORD: I think so. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. We have an amended motion. MR. DUNNE: Could you repeat that again, what about the complaints being-- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Substantiated? MR. DUNNE: Right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: If there was a complaint-- MR. DUNNE: Right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- but it was called in as a complaint and perhaps found to be not of significant substance to be able to file a written compliant, I still want to know it was a complaint. In other words -- MR. DUNNE: You want to know it's a complaint but that it hasn't been proved and it's just a complaint. CHAIRMAN HAYES: At this point in time, being a temporary from this board, I'm suggesting that a conviction is not necessary. MR. DUNNE: Okay. Fine. Oh, somebody can just call up and complain and then-- CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm not saying that that will deny our reapproval. I just want to know about it. (Multiple speakers.) MR. DUNNE: Fine. No problem. MR. BARTOE: Because, Mr. Dunne, we do get frivolous complaints at times. Page 29 February 20, 2002 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, we do. No question. MR. DUNNE: Right. IfI could just ask Mr. Camarillo, is it your intention to go and try and take this test again? MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir. MR. DUNNE: Like the business law, and you said your wife is -- is pretty good at some of that so -- MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir. MR. DUNNE: -- she can maybe help you along? MR. CAMARILLO: Yes, sir. MR. DUNNE: Okay. Great. MR. CAMARILLO: I have given -- what it is that every time I go there I get so nervous and they only give you such amount of time. I start to do it, then before I know it time is getting away from me, so I just start going faster, and that's my problem, sir. I don't want to rush it if-- I know if I could take it again -- plus, if you notice, every time I do it I get better and better at it, but it also costs money, you know, and my wife -- I'm the only supporter of the family, so I just can't be missing work and going to take these tests. MR. CRAWFORD: Right. But just so we're clear, if this motion passes, it would be frivolous for you to retake the test. MS. WHITE: I have a question. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes. MS. WHITE: Why couldn't we give this exam without a time limit, if that's the problem? MR. NEALE: Because they won't. That's the way it's -- it's a three-hour test or a two-hour test, and that's the way they're set up by the testing agency. MS. WHITE: And we have no ability to amend that? MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's correct. Mr. Crawford, the words Page 30 February 20, 2002 of the motion are -- in fact, it may even be that before it's over with it may need to be repeated, and I hate to do that to you, but the way I understand the motion is he's done trying to pass tests if we approve this motion on the floor. MR. CRAWFORD: Correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. CRAWFORD: So let me restate the motion just so we're all clear. Mr. Chairman, the motion is that we approve Mr. Camarillo's irrigation license on a conditional basis with the words "conditional" stamped on his license, and if there are any complaints of any kind over a one-year period from the date of issuance he will be requested to appear before this board so we can discuss the complaints. MS. WHITE: Second, White. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We do have a restated motion, and we do have a second. Any other discussion on the issue? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Call for the vote. All in favor. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: It carries. You're going to have a conditional license. MR. CAMARILLO: Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're welcome. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Camarillo, you'll have to come in the office tomorrow, and you can take care of obtaining that license from the office staff, Maggie or Karen. MR. CAMARILLO: Okay, sir. MR. DUNNE: Good luck. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Is that the letter? Page 31 February 20, 2002 MS. WHITE: Oh, yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Here's that letter here. Good luck. Okay. That concludes our new business. Under old business I have three items. Is there something we missed, or are you just enjoying the entertainment? Okay. Okay. You're going to challenge us one day, huh? MR. DUNNE: Come by and visit any day. MR. CRAWFORD: You're very welcome to stay. We thought we were holding you up. Okay. All right. MR. BARTOE: Did Mr. Caughenbaugh show up? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Oh, that's good. Great. Would you come up, sir. We'll continue with the new business. Timothy Caughenbaugh, request to qualify second entity. Would you come up to the podium, please? I'm going to ask you to be sworn in before we go any further. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name for the record. MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Tim Caughenbaugh. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning, sir. You're reason for being here this morning? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: To apply for a second license in same business that I'm in right now. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What's wrong with the license and business you have now? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Not a thing. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Then why are you-- MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: I bought a glass franchise which now would be auto glass which we don't do and, you know, 24-hour glass replacement with the franchise. There's about 100 of us now in the country. Every three months we get together, share ideas, and we Page 32 February 20, 2002 have a staff which helps us with marketing, advertising. I never have before. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What is your total affiliation with the new entity? Do you own it lock, stock, and barrel? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: You mean-- yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: The new company? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: This franchise, correct. MR. CRAWFORD: What's the name of the new business? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Glass Doctor. MR. CRAWFORD: Glass Doctor. Apparently you qualified Gary's Glass? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Correct. MR. NEALE: I just want to make it clear for the board and myself, the new entity will do only automotive glass, or does it do all types? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Automotive and, like, flat glass, glazed-- you know, broken glass, emergencies, 24-hour. Which we - - we have the capability of doing now. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Just like a franchise. MR. DUNNE: Do you also install shutters? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Yes, we do. CHAIRMAN HAYES: For the new board members, we review the entire packet, and one of the items in these packets is always a credit report, and it needs to be reviewed. And when we're looking at opposing questions and possibly granting the second entities -- I just bring it up; he's got an excellent credit report -- but anytime we're looking at qualifying a second entity, this is a requirement. And it doesn't -- we need to review it as we're reviewing the whole packet and understand what we're looking at. MR. DUNNE: Okay. MR. CRAWFORD: So you said you currently install shutters Page 33 February 20, 2002 also? MR, MR, MR, MR, MR MR, CAUGHENBAUGH: Yes. CRAWFORD: And what license is that? CAUGHENBAUGH: It's aluminum. CRAWFORD: Okay. CAUGHENBAUGH: CRAWFORD: Okay. You have the aluminum license? Yeah. MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: This would be just glazing over. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. The company is the Glass Doctor of Southwest Florida. MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Is that a d/b/a? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Because your corporation is Caughenbaugh Enterprises. MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Exactly. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So it would be Caughenbaugh Enterprises d/b/a Glass Doctor of Southwest Florida? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Correct. MR. JOSLIN: How long have you owned Gary's Glass? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: I'm sorry? MR. JOSLIN: How long have you owned Gary's Glass? MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: Over seven years, going on my eighth year. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I'll make the motion we grant this license. I see nothing really wrong with the packet. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion. I need a second. MR. BARIL: Baril, second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any other discussion? (No response.) Page 34 February 20, 2002 CHAIRMAN HAYES: (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) All in favor. Opposed. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. You'll need to wait till tomorrow before your paperwork's back down to the county, but you're good to go. MR. CAUGHENBAUGH: All right. Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you. Okay. We have three items under old business. Item for discussion is the ordinance amendments. Mr. Zachary, you wanted to mention something on that? MR. ZACHARY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have -- of course, our ordinance amendment was approved by the board and ready to go, and then I -- I noticed a couple of things in 489, the state statute that had changed, and that -- that I assumed you would want to incorporate into the ordinance revision that we were currently -- we currently were preparing. But knowing better than to assume anything, I thought I'd bring it before the board to let you know what those changes were to get the board's approval before I went ahead. Then I can incorporate those in the amendment that we have ready to go very easily and do it all at one time. The first one was -- and I handed that out to you it's the changes in the state statute to the commercial pool spa contractor -- residential pool spa contractor and swimming pool spa contractor licenses, and I think that pretty well sets out in the handout that I gave you the changes that are made in the state statute. And that's the discussion I wanted to have whether the board wanted to incorporate those changes into our ordinance that would track the language exactly as in the state statute. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. The state statute currently allows solar heating as part of a pool and spa contractors license? Page 35 February 20, 2002 MR. ZACHARY: No. That was -- that was -- that was something separate. The solar contractor was a different -- a different part of the state statute. I'm I'm just dealing now with the handout I gave you that deals only with the commercial pool and spa contractor and residential and swimming pool, which -- which are presently in our ordinance they just changed the language a little bit. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. I'm-- MR. ZACHARY: You see the underlines and the strike- throughs? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. The underlines in the commercial pool and spa says (as read): "Pool heaters." It doesn't specify whether they're heat pumps, electric, gas, or solar. So it really doesn't even relate to the solar license as we have it in the local ordinance. MR. ZACHARY: That's correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Then why are we looking at it? MR. ZACHARY: Because of the changes in the language. MR. NEALE: In the state statute. MR. ZACHARY: In the state statute. MR. CRAWFORD: It looks to me they just clarified a few things. They just -- they spelled -- spelled out a few things. MR. ZACHARY: Exactly. The language has been-- MR. CRAWFORD: Pool heaters, perimeter filter piping. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. The solar contractor is in our ordinance; right? MR. BARTOE: Mr. Hayes? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, sir. MR. BARTOE: They're discussing page 29. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah. MR. BARTOE: Underlying -- underlined words are added. Page 36 February 20, 2002 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I've got it. I just didn't see the word "solar" anywhere in here. MR. BARTOE: Ah, that will come later, I believe. MR. NEALE. That's later. That's something different. That's a different -- that's a different topic. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I apologize. I'm just floating around lost. Okay. So Section "O" in our ordinance under solar contractor-- MR. LLOYD: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, no, this sheet right here (indicating) will be discussed later. Just turn it over for a moment. We're going to be looking at page 29 only. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you. MR. ZACHARY: And that was just a page 29 out of-- out of the laws or the whole session law, so you just got part of that session law, and that part just deals with 489-105, which is the state statute, and we track the language of the state statute as far as state certified and registered contractors in our ordinance. And they've changed the language of these three particular state licenses, and so my suggestion is that we just amend our ordinance to track the language as it is in the state statute, which we -- in every other category we do that anyway. So just to -- just to have our language current and updated with the state statute. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, are you familiar with the difference in those two languages now? MR. BARTOE: I'm familiar with what Mr. Zachary is requesting the board to approve, and I agree with him. It's the new wording that's underlined in the state statutes for commercial pool contractors, residential pool contractors to -- to add that to our ordinance so that our ordinance coincides with what the state is doing. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. My only concern with that-- and the reason I ask for it is -- that if you have been going down the road Page 37 February 20, 2002 for the last few years enforcing our ordinance, not 489, but our ordinance and there was some significant changes in the qualifications to carry that license or operate under that license, that you wouldn't in trouble if that all got changed and you weren't aware of it, or didn't realize the ramifications on our local contractors. MR. BARTOE: I believe we have a pool contractor on the board, and you should get his thoughts on this. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good point. MR. ZACHARY: And, Mr. Chairman, if I could add, too, that's generally what we do. I know the last one with Mr. -- Mr. Palmer was here, the last ordinance amendment that we did, we went back in and incorporated the language that they added or taken away from the state statute in our ordinance. So this is a periodic thing that we do to keep -- to keep up with the language that states -- pretty much mandates that they're certified and registered contractors. This is nothing that Collier County itself is going to do that -- all of the state certified contractors are going to have to do that anyway with the state statute. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I agree. There's no question that throughout the -- as long as I've been on this board we've done our very best to track along with -- parallel to the state in all of its writings, because it is almost impossible to enforce one format of it without enforcing the other. So I understand that and that makes sense. I just didn't want any surprises on our local contractors that, well, now that we've amended our ordinance, you've got to have 88 more years of experience before you can get this license. MR. NEALE: And the -- the issue with this really is more important in licenses that are described specifically in state statute and, therefore, are registered licenses. Because if there are registered license or required to be a registered license, it really should mirror the state statute. Page 38 February 20, 2002 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. Okay. MR. JOSLIN: If I could add something, just for the record I guess. The way I read this and the way that I have been a pool contractor for as many as years as I have, what appears they've done is just taking the superfluous words out of the ordinance to shorten it up. Meaning that construction is all things that are related to the construction of a swimming pool. In that ordinance what they did was they broke it down into all the things that are included in'that scope of the work, and all they did, I believe, on this -- this particular ordinance is they've taken out all the little items and just put them all into one word meaning construction. MR. CRAWFORD: Yeah. It looks like what they did, Mr. Joslin, is they -- this affects probably the maintenance licenses more than the contractor license, like, I would assume that now a maintenance contractor cannot replace a pump, and my question would be, have they been doing that in Collier County to date? MR. JOSLIN: Maintenance contractor is allowed to replace equipment. MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. So is there an overlap in licenses then? MR. NEALE: There is and, in fact, it's even addressed in-- MR. CRAWFORD: Oh, good. MR. NEALE: -- in one of these, wherein it says the scope of work -- I just had it and I lost it -- where the scope of work does include a license set out below it, it's -- so they recognize that in here, I think. MR. BARTOE: If I may -- MR. NEALE: Yeah. It's in "J," commercial pool and spa contractor is -- it goes through and then after the strike-through -- let's see, and also includes the scope of work with a swimming pool and spa-servicing contractor. So they by specific reference have Page 39 February 20, 2002 incorporated swimming pool and spa servicing contractor and commercial pool and spa contractor, and they've also done the same in the residential pool and spa contractor. So they recognize that there is an overlap of work there. So the people with the higher-level license can -- are specifically permitted to do everything. MR. CRAWFORD: That's what I thought. I think it's just a clarification. MR. NEALE: Right. The thing is if you look at it, the language that's struck out basically tells you how to build a pool, whereas the new language says you're allowed to build a pool. Because if they -- you know, theoretically if they had left something out of there in what's been stricken, theoretically a pool contractor could go out and not be able to build a pool because it didn't say that he could put in XYZ, because it wasn't specifically listed. So they've made it simpler to administer, I think, frankly. MR. CRAWFORD: We don't make the product; we make the product better. MR. NEALE: That's it. Right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, did you have something else to say? MR. BARTOE: I was going to add that -- I see what they have underlined as new is we already have in here worded, but Mr. Neale just explained that, how it'll have to be changed. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Mr. Zachary, you looking for a motion from this board to approve or-- MR. ZACHARY: Or just some direction and general consensus, and I'll go ahead and put it in -- put it in the amendment. I don't know whether the board wants me to bring the amendment back, or we can 'take this and run with it. MR. NEALE: Take it to the county commission. MR. ZACHARY: Take it to the commissioners as is if you Page 40 February 20, 2002 approve this language or give me direction that this language is fine that we change the language of our ordinance to track exactly the state statute. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think more than anything else this board appreciates the fact that you brought this to our attention. There's not a whole lot we're going to suggest other than to go forward with it anyway. So ! don't know. Does anybody on the board feel we need to make a motion or just nod our heads perhaps? MR. ZACHARY: Or a motion if you feel more comfortable would be on the record, and there wouldn't be any doubt. MR. NEALE: I think that would be appropriate. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. I need a motion to approve the amendments. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I make a motion that we approve the amended state statute and adopt it within our local ordinance. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and second. Any further discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: All in favor. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Super. It's official. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Now, there was -- there was another-- another two paragraphs in the state statute that have been there that are not included in our ordinance either, and I discussed this briefly with staff, and one of them is the solar contractor which is the single sheet I gave you. It's under paragraph "O," and paragraph "P" is pollution -- pollutant storage systems contractor. Now, Mr. Bartoe Page 41 February 20, 2002 and I discussed that, and there's a-- in our ordinance there is a specialty contractor that's entitled "solar heater installation contractor." So this -- the state statute actually goes beyond what our ordinance provides for. And also there's a -- under our ordinance there's a pollution storage contractor, and we've looked at that, but-- and that says -- and that specifically says that we do not have a -- a county certificate of competency is not available for a pollution storage contractor. And the contractor must have a state pollution license. So between staff, our discussions, we think maybe we ought to leave that one alone, but I want the board to look at the language of that solar contractor that I handed out, and perhaps we can discuss whether they want to incorporate or we want to incorporate that language into our ordinance or leave our ordinance alone as it is. MR. NEALE: I would think just -- to the counsel and board, I would suggest that the board does adopt this language with the addition of our requirements. That's the other thing that was on the previous one, the requirements for testing and such will be included in the -- will be mirrored -- will be the same requirements as we currently have, so that will be added to the beginning of this swimming pool and spa and all those. And the same thing with the solar heater or solar contractor. I would suggest that the board adopt the state language because, again, this is a contract, a license category that's required to be registered and because it is enumerated in the' statute, so you want to mirror the statute as closely as you possibly can. But this board can set out the licensing requirements -- the testing requirements and so forth. MR. ZACHARY: If I might -- I'm sorry I didn't make a copy of our ordinance, but if I could quickly read it. It's pretty short (as read): "The solar heating installation contractor requires 24 months Page 42 February 20, 2002 experience, a passing grade on a three-hour test, and a passing grade on a two-hour business and law test. That means those who have knowledge to install, alter, repair, or replace any solar hot water heating system for residences or for residential swimming pools including collectors, storage, and expansion tanks, heat exchangers, piping, valves, pumps, sensors, and low voltage controls which connect to existing plumbing, stubouts, and electrical disconnects." So that's a little bit different language, and it includes only solar swimming pool installations, I believe. MR. NEALE: Actually, it does all. MR. ZACHARY: Yes. MR. NEALE: But the big difference that I read is that our solar heater installation contractor solely permits residential installations. It does not permit commercial installation. MR. BARTOE: And I met with other staff members this morning, and we feel scratch residential. If you can do it in residential, why can't you do it in commercial. MR. NEALE: Right. Well, and that's the thing is the proposed language from the state says that you can do it whether public, private, or otherwise regardless of use. So that opens it up to any types of installation. MR. BARTOE: I think the easiest -- I think the easiest way to make our ordinance coincide with the state is to just scratch out "for residences" and "for residential." MR. NEALE: I -- well, I agree that would get most of it done. I would recommend to the board and recommend to staff that we adopt the language as set out in the statute just so that we're consistent. MR. JOSLIN: I have to make a comment on this only because what you're telling me is that a solar contractor -- by taking out the residential portion and making him a full-blown solar contractor to do Page 43 February 20, 2002 either commercial or residential swimming, pools, I have a problem with that for sure, because I can count numerous developments here that have solar heaters in them, and they're always installed improperly by solar contractors. A commercial pool has to have a certain flow rate. We just start tapping into some pumps, breaking systems open and putting in solar panels, you're dealing with pressure, and you're probably going to be depleting the capability of that pool to turn over its pumpage overtimes. And I don't feel as though a solar contractor has the -- call it the experience requirements that would allow him to do that. So I would like to leave the word "residential" in there and let the pool contractor handle installation for a solar or make it a combination of both. That's going to turn him into a pool contractor in a sense or servicing contractor to a degree. MR. CRAWFORD: But then where does the commercial solar contractor go? MR. NEALE: He would be the guy with a state license. MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. MR. JOSLIN: Right. Right. He'd have to be, exactly. MR. CRAWFORD: Which-- MR. JOSLIN: As I -- as I read the statute -- and I'm not really certain if this is true or not, because that's what I've been told, because I haven't tried to do it since someone told me that I couldn't. But by this new code we just adopted a few minutes ago, it says that I would be allowed or any pool contractor would be allowed to install package pool heaters. Now, how do we define a "pool package, pool heater"? Is a solar system a package pool heater? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any heaters. It says pool heaters, period. It didn't define what type it was or anything else. MR. JOSLIN: It says pretty clear right here. It says (as read): "The installation of package pool heaters." MR. NEALE: Package pool heaters is what it says, yeah. Page 44 February 20, 2002 MR. JOSLIN: So I can go down to Home Depot or go to Pinch- a-Penny and buy ten panels, buy the valves, buy the equipment, everything I need as a package and go put it on as a pool contractor. I have been told in the past that I have to have a separate license to do this. So I'm not allowed to touch solar systems. MR. NEALE: I -- I think it all depends on how you define "package pool heaters." I have -- I have no idea what that is so ... CHAIRMAN HAYES: It seems quite clear in this what we -- this ordinance amendment that we've already adopted that you are legally allowed to do that at this point. MR. JOSLIN: Right. Yup. I don't know how the -- how the county requirements have -- do they go above that, or have they set other rules that I'm not really aware of or of what a pool contractor can do? Because I've been told by several solar people -- installers that a pool contractor cannot put up a solar system. It's solely now a solar license, just like this secondary one reads for solar. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. But what I'm telling you then in the past there was a difference between our ordinance and the state statute. As of today with our motion, there is no difference. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So it's not an issue you even need to worry about any longer; is that correct, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Well, once the -- once the Board of County Commissioners has adopted it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Once the county commissioners have adopted it. I'm sorry. Now, on the other hand, what you're saying about the solar contractor, as long as you're a pool contractor, you don't need to have a solar license to put a solar system on any longer, commercial or residential. MR. JOSLIN: Correct. Page 45 February 20, 2002 CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're saying that if you're a solar contractor, that all of the requirements for that exam are mainly for residential and that you really aren't qualified to do a commercial solar system for a commercial pool because there are different flow rates and requirements required there than may be on residential pool? MR. JOSLIN: Correct, yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And a pool contractor knows those things, whereas a solar contractor not only might not know it, but actually won't be tested on it? MR. JOSLIN: Exactly. Exactly. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Neale, did you understand that? MR. NEALE: No. Sorry. I was doing something else here. MR. CRAWFORD: What we're considering is limiting the solar contractor to residential only. Is that okay? MR. NEALE: I think, certainly, this board could-- could do that, but then what would have to be done is a solar -- there could be a solar contractor that gets a state license who would come down and be able to do it because, you know, that's specifically permitted in the statute. That is a specialty contractor under the state statute. So that would require him to get a state solar contractors license as opposed to being MR. JOSLIN: I've never seen the solar testing or a person that has had a solar license that has passed a solar test, so I really don't know exactly what's in that test. There may be items in that test that - - that separate that commercial aspect. MR. NEALE: Yeah. Because our-- our ordinance requires a passing grade on a three-hour test for solar heater installation contractor, and, Mr. Bartoe, do you know if that's a specific test for solar heater installation that experience this or MR. BARTOE: If the ordinance is worded this way, I feel it has Page 46 February 20, 2002 to be MR. NEALE: Must be one, yeah. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I'm going to say the same thing, Mr. Joslin. I, as a plumbing contractor, would have the same concerns, to put in a solar water heater system in a potable water system. The reason that a plumbing license is -- is required to do water, potable water, is not just for the sanitary sewer, but to make sure we prevent and maintain a prevention of backflow contamination to the potable water system. A solar contractor is not totally aware of some of the issues that I'm aware of as a plumbing contractor regarding safety and contamination prevention of potable water. So the same thing would be my concern; however, it's been way past us years earlier that the solar industry created their own license very much like the water treatment industry has and pulled it away from mine, my plumbing license the same as you see has happened to you and your pool license. I would hope and suggest that over the period of years they have amended and rearranged the license testing requirements for the solar contractor to take into consideration some of your pressure drop and concerns and cycles of turnover as well as my potable protection from a backflow. I don't know. As long as the state statute is written to approve it, I'd say that we'd be hard-pressed to change that. MR. ZACHARY: I think that's one of our options is to just leave the state as it is and leave ours as it is and just -- and go on. MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. And that basically -- what that would say is if we left -- if this board left ours as it is and left the state as it is -- is people who have the local license would be restricted to doing only residential solar, period. They would have to go get a state license to do commercial solar. MR. CRAWFORD: I think I like that idea. Page 47 February 20, 2002 MR. NEALE: So, I mean, if that -- if that's the pleasure of the board, certainly-- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Just leaving it the way it is? MR. NEALE: Just leave it the way it is and let the state -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Let the state handle it that way. MR. NEALE: That would be a state license. The difference is, of course, is if the state contractor does something wrong, this board can still have enforcement against them, but it's still a state license, and so it will have to go through state contract -- contracting issuing license boards. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I understand so -- MR. NEALE: But it is -- it would be only a state registered, not a state certificate so ... CHAIRMAN HAYES: You want to make a motion, Mr. Crawford? MR. CRAWFORD: Based on this, Mr. Chairman, I would make a motion that we do not adopt Section O, solar contractor, of the state law into our local ordinance. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Crawford, if you would, would you add Section P? MR. CRAWFORD: Well, I was going to bring that up. I believe we all agreed that we also will not adopt Section P, pollutant storage system contractor to our local ordinance. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion. I need a second. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on the board? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Calling for the vote. All in favor. Opposed. Page 48 February 20, 2002 (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well, Mr. Zachary. That -- that work for you? MR. ZACHARY: Yeah, thank you. We'll get it all done at once and get the amendment passed post haste. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Next item perhaps is second entity form fee. Mr. Bartoe, you want to chat about that a second? MR. BARTOE: Yes. On our new form of which staffhas started using on the front page, Item No. 9, application fee of blank. Make check payable to Collier County Board of County Commissioners. We need this board to make a recommendation as to what that fee will be. I don't know if Mr. Neale knows what the state charges or not for second entity. I discussed it with other staff members, and they feel a fee of $50 would cover the cost of the extra work involved. And we are not able to charge this fee until this board recommends a fee and we get it -- we get an amendment to the fee ordinance approved by the commissioners and signed by Tallahassee and back to us. Then we can start collecting the fee. As it is of today, everybody came before you. There was no fee for doing this paperwork. MR. NEALE: The state charges $169 for certified contractors and 100 -- $104 for registered contractors. Don't ask me how they came up with those numbers. MR. CRAWFORD: I really think that's a business decision as opposed to a policy decision of the board. It needs to be whatever covers your cost to process it. If $50 is what's been recommended -- what was it prior to this? MR. BARTOE: Nothing. Even before we come up with this form there was no fee to apply to qualify a second entity. MR. DUNNE: How many person hours do you think it would take to go through the paperwork, two or three Page 49 February 20, 2002 or MR. BARTOE: It depends on the amount of applications received and since Mr. Ossorio has come on board concentrating on unlicensed contractors only, that is why this board is seeing a lot of people coming in here to qualify second entities, because the man that he cited may not be able to pass a test, may not have the qualifications and everything else, so he gets his friend to qualify him who's already qualifying one company. That's why the board's seeing an influx of second entities. MR. CRAWFORD: I think the $50 or $100 or whatever it may be isn't going to cover the actual cost. The more I think about it, it's more it's more of a -- it's something that requires the person to want to do it. In other words, it makes it a little more difficult for somebody that really wants to do it and it separates out some of the frivolous applications perhaps. MR. BARTOE: At this time all of the staff members I've discussed it with feel that 50 would cover it. I feel if we would need an increase in the future we could request it. MR. NEALE: Yeah. What-- MR. BARTOE: I believe we need a -- MR. NEALE: A motion -- (Multiple speakers.) MR. BARTOE: -- a motion from this board so that we can proceed with the Board of County Commissioners. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Sorry. MR. DUNNE: I -- I think $50 is too low. A burden rate for -- you know, a burden rate for just an employee's salary is far and above what the actual hourly salary is. MR. CRAWFORD: It probably is a little low, but in the past I guess we haven't charged anything. We're dealing with some small contractors, you know, so ... Page 50 February 20, 2002 MR. DUNNE: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anybody interested in making a motion? I'll make the motion that we approve a $50 fee for second entity application. MR. DUNNE: Dunne, second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: All in favor. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: All opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. Okay. That one's done. Now, we have the discussion on the procedure. Mr. Neale handed us out some procedures on disciplinary hearings. I think you've done that once before. We didn't discuss it too much at that time. MR. NEALE: What this actually was is the direction from the board at the last meeting. We had -- I presented essentially the same language to the board, except in memorandum form. The board of directors came back with it set out as a procedure, so I made a couple of minor changes to it to set it out as a procedure. So it's just what the board reviewed last time except with some -- with it such that the board can adopt it as a procedure of this board and put in the records of the board. CHAIRMAN HAYES: For the benefit of the new members of the board, in years past we've done public hearings. We've tried to mirror the standard legal procedures as much as possible, and we have stumbled and been guided by our attorney, Mr. Zachary, maybe the plaintiff's attorney or the defendant's attorney in some cases, to try to do the best we can to maintain a formal procedure in hearings. They can get pretty radical. They can get extensive. They can get Page 51 February 20, 2002 complicated. It can actually get rowdy. Practically like a court of law. Consequently, we have asked Mr. Neale to put together a formal procedure that we may adopt and then follow on all public hearings so that irregardless of what comes up in a hearing we're able to maintain a format and maintain some structure to the hearings. And in reviewing it, this is the second time we've seen it with some changes. This is practically exactly what we asked for, and apparently it is the generally, legally accepted policy and procedure in a hearing format as well. MR. NEALE: Yeah. Okay. What this was, it was based on the manner in which this board has conducted its hearings basically since it was created. It's also based on Florida Statutes so -- okay, Florida Administrative Code. Set out in a way that's -- the board can provide clear direction to respondents as to what they're going to be facing when they come here. Makes it easier on staff. Makes it easier on the county attorney's office and also on the respondents to prepare their case. And, frankly, as I -- as I noted at the last meeting, what it does is also provide this board with a stronger legal position should a decision of the board ever be challenged on one of these issues, as long as the board can show that they followed these procedures, that the argument that they were not granted procedural due process would essentially be eliminated. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It just covers our butt on that should we run into a -- an appeal based on lack of structure or -- well, we didn't know the procedure. MR. DUNNE: Outstanding. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes. I need a motion from someone to adopt these procedures for the hearings. MR. DUNNE: Motion to adopt the procedures for disciplinary hearings. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, second. Page 52 February 20, 2002 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? MR. BARIL: Yeah. I would like to know should there be between Item 4 and Item 5 a rebuttal case by respondent? MR. NEALE: That is typically not -- it wouldn't be permitted in a court of law typically, and so what we tried to do is follow essentially the same process that you would have in a court of law. So that's why there's not -- it's not in there, and this is -- as I say, this is the way, basically, it was handed down to me how the cases are done here, and we've continued to do it the same way. MR. BARIL: Fair enough. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And, once again, I said at the beginning of this meeting we are quasi-judicial which means that should there be a reasonable rebuttal need on the respondent's behalf we would not deny them the privilege of doing that. MR. BARIL: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. We have not in the past. MR. BARIL: Fair enough. MR. NEALE: Yeah. And that's permitted in the language that's in here where it says the filing general sequence should be followed. So what it does allow is that if there is a necessity for something else the board can set that up. MR. BARIL: This would not preclude the respondent from having an opportunity to voice something after the rebuttal case? MR. NEALE: Yeah. That's more -- as Mr. Hayes said, that's more open kind of forum than the straight court of law. MR. BARIL: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: This is a general guideline, if you will, at the very least, something that can be documented. MR. BARIL: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Any further discussion? Page 53 February 20, 2002 (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) All in favor. Opposed. Page 54 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Super. One more item of business. We'll have this all worked out one day, Mr. Neale, where we know what we're doing. MR. NEALE: It keeps going forward. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. NEALE: I do have one request for the board. Our meeting is scheduled for March 20th next month, and I will not be around on March 20th. So if we could reschedule it to either the week before or the week after or, Mr. Bartoe, you'd indicated that there may be no necessity for a meeting next month? MR. BARTOE: The only necessity might be someone that's in a big hurry to qualify second entity, but if the board's not going to meet, it'll have to wait. I, myself, sent out notice to a contractor yesterday to schedule a hearing for him to appear, I believe, it's -- the third Wednesday is April 20th for a hearing, which could possibly get postponed. Could possibly be resolved; however, I have scheduled a hearing for a contractor due to a complaint I received April 20th. MR. NEALE: So that's not scheduled for next month either? MR. BARTOE: No. That's not for next month. That was my mistake. I'm glad I made it if you cannot be here. MR. NEALE: I'm glad you made it, too, frankly. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Then if that's the case, then we might not have a meeting in March, and it would be in April, and that would be on what day? I'm afraid that's the 17th. MR. BARTOE: I believe it's the 20th, third Wednesday. CHAIRMAN HAYES: The 20th of April, according to the February 20, 2002 MR. BARTOE: out to the contractor. the 20th. calendar -- MR. BARTOE: Is it the 17th? Okay. Third Wednesday. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Third Wednesday-- if this is a 2002 calendar, the 20th of April is on a Saturday. MR. BARTOE: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So the 17th-- MR. ZACHARY: I've got a calendar in front of me. Yeah, third Wednesday is the 17th. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Well-- My mistake, and I better check my notice I sent I probably put the 17th and just thought I put then. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. I have -- I have plans to be out of town as well, so your vice chair may have to chair that meeting. MR. NEALE' So, basically, we're saying there will be no March meeting? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Next meeting will be April 17th Okay. We have one more item of discussion. Kathy Pope, I apologize for the length of her day, and you've had to sit there, and you've been very patient. You requested to address the board. Either one. MS. POPE: All morning you've been talking about experience and licensing, and I think you-all do a great job, and I thought you might want to be aware of the new state certified license exam application that just came out about two weeks ago, and that's for 17 different categories; plumbing, swimming pool, general contractor, roofing and 13 other ones as well. For about 20 years the state used a form something like this (indicating) where -- you guys might remember-- you put down how many years of experience you had. It had to be verified, certified by Page 55 February 20, 2002 someone that knew that you had performed that work either, another contractor, an architect, or an engineer. That had to be sworn in front of a notary two times, and then you also had to list the jobs that you did your work on and what contractors you worked for, and that page had to be sworn and notarized two more times. The new application is a person just simply checks a box. Most people fall into the category that says (as read): "Four years experience as a workman or foreman of-- at least one year must have been as a foreman," and you sign it at the bottom. You don't list jobs. Nobody verifies that. It's pretty wide open. So, I mean, eventually it's going to fall back here and on staff as to when these people get these licenses that just sign this and have -- even though they are attesting to something, they may not have any experience. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What form is that? MS. POPE: This -- this is the state exam application for 17 categories; plumbing, roofing, swimming-- MR. JOSLIN: For someone who would want to take a test to become one of these categories. MS. POPE: Right. All 17 state categories now use this form. MR. NEALE: One of which being the solar contractor. MS. POPE: That's correct. They're on here: Solar, air conditioning, building, roofing, plumbing, general contractors, mechanical, commercial pool, residential pool, servicing pool, residential contractors, sheet metal, underground utilities, solar, drywall, gas line, and pollutant storage. Check a box, sign it, you go take the test. MR. BARTOE: That's all the licenses that were A through P in the state ordinance? MR. NEALE: Yup. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So, basically, you're saying it's a lot easier to get a state license than it used to be? Page 56 February 20, 2002 MS. POPE: Well, the test isn't any easier, but it's a lot easier to get up there because some people were very intimidated -- and especially if they were honest and truthful people -- about filling out this old application. And even if they weren't so honest and truthful, the person that certified them, their license could be in jeopardy if they signed it that they had this experience and lied. Now, they're not even -- you know, just checking a box. MR. NEALE: I would suggest that the person is still liable to the state for penalties for -- if they misrepresent that. MS. POPE: Oh, it says that. MR. NEALE' However, it's only upon investigation, probably, that the state would determine that. MS. POPE: Now it's only an attestation statement, not notarized, not an affidavit. And you could have these copies. MR. NEALE: Could I see a copy? MS. POPE: Sure. MR. BARTOE: I have advised Ms. Pope that, you know, our ordinance, our requirements have not changed, and I can see her concern with the state forms. MR. JOSLIN: Talking your forms or we talking just a competency code type license? MR. BARTOE: I'm sorry? MR. JOSLIN: If you go take the state test, a person doesn't have to go through Collier County to go take a state test, do they? MR. BARTOE: No. MR. JOSLIN: So that's the form she's talking about; fight? CHAIRMAN HAYES: For the state. MR. JOSLIN: For the state. MS. POPE: Does Collier still have residential building and general contractor? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Correct. Page 57 February 20, 2002 MS. POPE: You do not? MR. BARTOE: No, we do. MS. POPE: You still do? MR. BARTOE: Yes. MS. POPE: I thought the state took over the Division 1. MR. BARTOE: No, they haven't. MS. POPE: Okay. So then a person could go -- MR. BARTOE: If they have, they have not notified Collier County yet. (Multiple speakers.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: One at a time. MR. NEALE: The state has been talking about taking over all the licenses for a long time. They have -- they have not yet done so. MS. POPE: Right. MR. NEALE: It's a continuing item of discussion that the legislature keeps beating back, frankly. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I'm-- we -- we all do dearly hope that as the state continues to take over more and more and more jurisdictional responsibility that they maintain their-- some integrity of professionalism involved with it. Showing up with an application like that definitely seems to harm that integrity somewhat. It's a whole lot easier to tell a story like that and to say, "Well, I didn't understand that question," than it is to lie on an affidavit. MS. POPE: Exactly. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Interesting. Anybody have any questions of Ms. Pope? MR. CRAWFORD: Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We appreciate you taking your time to bring this to our attention. I just hope that one day or another we could help influence an amendment of such a thing, but so many times our hands are tied when it comes to the state. Page 58 February 20, 2002 MR. NEALE: And one of the parts of this is that it actually is not statutory these type of matters. This is adopted as a -- as a procedure under the administrative code by the state construction industry licensing board staff; that this is not even something that goes through the legislature or anything else. It's just a staff adoption. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. MR. NEALE: And they've had staff cutbacks up there, and I'm sure this was in part done to make it easier on them. CHAIRMAN HAYES: No question. Thank you, Ms. Pope. Mr. Bartoe. MR. BARTOE: I have a question in regards to our $50 fee that the board recommended adopting. Mr. Zachary, do we get that ready to go before the Board of County Commissioners for the fee ordinance and amendment, or what's the process? MR. ZACHARY: I'll find out. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Obviously, we have no public hearings. Mr. Bartoe, are there any reports? MR. BARTOE: None by staff. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other reports from any other direction? We discussed earlier our next meeting, April the 17th. Anybody have anything else they want to bring up or discuss or mention? MR. JOSLIN: Just one thing I'll just mention. I'm not sure it really applies or how soon it will apply, but the county just adopted the new swimming pool code, which is very involved for not only commercial but residential pools. So, I mean, I'm sure staff is going to probably see some actions coming out of this probably before long because of the construction. We've had several pool contractors in here before us before with so-called workmanship. So might be aware of it. We may see more. Page 59 February 20, 2002 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Things are going to change with that new code. I'm under the impression that the county or the whole state -- every county in the state must adopt it now, March 1st. MR. NEALE: Yup. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yup. And now that was put off again from January 1 st once already. MR. NEALE: Whether it'll be put off again is still up to question. They've been pushing this new building code back for Lord knows how long. It was supposed to be originally adopted last year sometime. MR. DUNNE: We've only got six days left. MR. NEALE: And in the past they pushed it forward. It should be adopted this time, but, you know, you folks who operate under it every day know better than I do. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. Okay. I need a motion for adjournment. MR. JOSLIN: I move we adjourn. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We're adjourned. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:47 a.m. CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD GARY HAYES, CHAIRMAN TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN COURT REPORTING, INC., BY CAROLYN J. 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