BCC Minutes 02/19/2002 J (w/School Board)February 19, 2002
WORKSHOP MEETING OF FEBRUARY 19, 2002
OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Board of County
Commissioners in and for the County of Collier, and also acting as
the Board of Zoning Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such
special districts as have been created according to law and having
conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:05 a.m. in
WORKSHOP SESSION in Building "F" of the Government
Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present:
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS:
CHAIRMAN'
VICE CHAIRMAN:
JIM COLETTA
TOM HENNING
DONNA FIALA
FRED COYLE
JAMES D. CARTER, Ph.D.
COLLIER COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD:
CHAIRMAN:
SUPERINTENDENT:
Anne Goodnight
Dr. Dan White
Linda Abbott
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February 19, 2002
ABSENT:
Donald J. York
Pamela M. Cox (Absent)
Nelson A. Faerber, Jr.
ALSO PRESENT:
TOM OLLIFF, County Manager
JIM MUDD, Deputy County Manager
LEO OCHS, Public Services
DAVID WEIGEL, County Attorney
NORMAN FEDER, Transportation
Administrator
JO-ANNE LEAMER, Administrator, Admin
Services Division
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COLLIER COUNTY
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
AGENDA
February lg, 2002
School Board Warkahap
g:00 A.M.
NOTICE: ALL PERSONS WISHING TO SPEAK ON ANY AGENDA ITEM MUST
REGISTER PRIOR TO SPEAKING. SPEAKERS MUST REGISTER WITH THE
COUNTY MANAGER .PRIOR TO THE PRESENTATION OF THE AGENDA ITEM TO
BE ADDRESSED.
COLUER COUNTY ORDINANCE NO. 99-22 REQUIRES THAT ALL LOBBYISTS
SHALL, BEFORE ENGAGING IN ANY LOBBYING ACTIVITIES (INCLUDING, BUT
NOT UMITED TO, ADDRESSING THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS),
REGISTER WITH THE CLERK TO THE BOARD AT THE BOARD MINUTES AND
RECORDS DEPARTMENT.
ANY PER~ON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL
NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND
THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE
PROCEEDING8 18 MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THE TESTIMONY AND
EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
ALL REGISTERED PUBUC SPEAKERS WILL BE LIMITED TO FIVE (5) MINUTES
UNLESS PERMISSION FOR ADDITIONAL TIME IS GRANTED BY THE CHAIRMAN.
IF YOU ARE A PERSON WITH A DISABIUTY WHO NEEDS ANY ACCOMMODATION
IN ORDER TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS PROCEEDING, YOU ARE ENTITLED, AT NO
COST TO YOU, TO THE I=ROVISION OF CERTAIN ASSISTANCE. I=LEASE
CONTACT THE COLLIER COUNTY FACILITIES MANAGEMENT DEPARTMENT
LOCATED AT 3301 EAST TAMIAMI TRAIL., NAPLES, FLORIDA, 34112, (941) 774-
8380; ASSISTED LISTENING DEVICES FOR THE HEARING IMPAIRED ARE
AVAILABLE IN THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS' OFFICE.
~Z/£DfZD~Z ih:b4 9417744010 COUNTY MANAGER PAGE
1. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
2. AGENDA
A. School Nursing Program
B. Impact Fee Update
C. Capital Projects
1. New Schools end County Utility Planning end Construction
2. New Schools and County Road Plennlng -,nd Construction
3. Government Acce~t Television Signal to Immokalee
3. ADJOURN
INQUIRIES CONCERNINQ ~HANGES TO THE BOARD_'SA~_FNDA SHOULD
MADE TO THECOU .NTy MANAGER,S OFFICE AT
February 19, 2002
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: Good morning. And welcome
to our school workshop. Would you all rise, please, and we'll say the
Pledge of Allegiance.
(The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.)
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: Once more, good morning.
And, Mr. Olliff, are you going to start us off this morning? But I
want to make one note before we begin. I'll have to leave at 9:45 on
county business. At that time I'll turn the meeting over to
Commissioner Henning who will take over. Mr. Olliff?.
MR. OLLIFF: Mr. Chairman, thank you. Good morning. Just
a -- a brief welcome to the school board members and the
administration and staff that are -- that are here in attendance. We
appreciate you coming all the way down to the courthouse to attend a
workshop with us. It's one of the things that we used to do on a fairly
regular basis, and I know the chairman has discussed with me the
idea of at least having this as an annual opportunity for us to be able
to discuss some opportunities. And we may try and set up something
with you after this workshop to see if there's not a regular time that
would work well for us to be able to get together.
You have a very brief agenda, and I think the -- the collective
staffs between the school board and the county have worked together
to put together some brief presentation for you. These are -- these are
primarily designed for the school board's sake to be more discussion
items in a relaxed atmosphere, which is why you're down on the floor
as opposed to up on the dias. We've not provided a lot of backup
reading material in advance with the hope that most of the items that
we talk about this morning are going to be fairly general in nature,
and I think your staff can give you most of the information that you'll
need.
The first item on your agenda for both chairs is the school-
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February 19, 2002
nursing program, and I think Dee Winterrey of the school board staff
is kicking that off with the presentation this morning.
MS. WINTERREY: Good morning. It's a pleasure to be here
this morning to speak to the combined boards about the school nurse
school health program. I hope this is the first of many presentations
that we'll be doing jointly together for you.
Today I'd sort of like to review what the school health program
is, talk a little bit about a national perspective, bring it back home to a
Florida perspective, and then zero in on how we provide those
services here in Collier County. And I have my able assistant, Ellen,
today who is going to assist us.
School health program, that's how we're going to start off first
today. We're going to talk a little bit about how we try to improve
the quality of the effectiveness of illness and injury management for
students. In our program we try to develop and coordinate
collaborative approaches to addressing student health issues. We
identify and treat individual health problems that impact a student's
ability to learn and stay in school.
Ours is a partnership. No one individual can deliver school
health services in isolation or by themselves. It's a combined
partnership between the Collier County School Board, NCH, Naples
Healthcare System, and the Collier County Health Department. It's a
collaboration approach, and that's how it's always been set up.
Nationally let's review some statistics. According to the United
States Department of Health and Human Services, there are over
47,600 RNs employed as school nurses in public schools. The ideal
nurse-to-student ratio would be 1 to 750. And believe me, that is the
ideal. On the average there's usually 1 nurse to every 2500 students,
and in some districts the ratio is even higher.
The presence of a school nurse has proven to lower absenteeism
and increase graduation rates. The school district in Missouri
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February 19, 2002
received funding to provide nursing services in 237 schools. An
evaluation of this program showed that students had a lower rate of
absenteeism, and students returned to the classroom sooner after the
nursing care that they would have if they had been excluded from
school to receive attention elsewhere. In this study 90 percent of
parents in the school district reported being satisfied with their child's
healthcare in the school setting.
Let's zero in on Florida statistics. A Florida's typical school day,
a student -- students have usually about a hundred thousand daily
visits to health rooms. Students have 80,000 medication doses
administered daily. During a typical school year, a nurse completes 1
million nursing assessments. A nurse has 2 million consultations
with parents and/or school staff, and 182,000 complex medical
procedures for students with set -- special needs present themselves.
The role of the nurse in the school system is changing. Back in
the days at least when I was in school and maybe some of the other
people in this room were in school, the school nurse was the person
who dispensed bandaids and did some basically noncomplex
treatment kinds of roles.
The role of the nurse today has changed considerably over the
last decade moving from the basic first aid to dealing with array of
complex medical, educational, health, and social problems.
What services does the nurse provide? Identification,
assessment, planning, and intervention and evaluation of students'
health concerns is a major focus. Emergency first aid, illness,
communicable disease controls is also an emphasis. Obviously
there's medication administration. Vision, hearing, growth and
development and scoliosis screening which our health department has
done an outstanding job in providing for us, assessment and
intervention for students with mental health needs and crisis team
participation. We do in-service school personnel, staff wellness,
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February 19, 2002
health records, and we prepare healthcare plans for students.
A school nurse is a school link to the community, to the
healthcare providers. Oftentimes this is the only person a child or a
family may have contact with. It is their main link to the medical
community.
School-nursing services for the year 2000, 2001, the Collier
County Health Department provided us with two full-time nurses and
the assistance of one supervisor. Collier County public schools had
eight exceptional student education nurses with two LPNs and one
Head Start nurse. They addressed the issues for the medically fragile
students that we have which have become quite extensive through the
years. NCH provided 8.4 part-time nurses with one supervisor. On
an average we had roughly eight to ten hours in each school weekly,
not ideal by any means.
The school health service for 2001-2002, as you can see, has
changed. We have 19.4 nurses from NCH, a combination of 13.4
RNs, 5 LPNs, and 1 supervisor. We still have 12 nurses from Collier
County public schools who again address the needs of the medically
fragile in our exceptional student education programs, and we have
one RN from the Collier County Health Department and one RN
coordinator for that program.
Funding options for enhancing school health services. This has
been the ongoing continual challenge. Nursing services are not a
mandated service in the State of Florida. So, consequently we are
always continuing to look and try to find funds. We're able to use
some state funds, a continued Collier County School Board funding,
the generous gift from the Collier County Board of Commissioner
funding of $250,000 this year for which we are most appreciative,
grants, private donors which we had from NCH up until this past
semester, and any community partners that we can take advantage of
with their financial resource and supports in our program.
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February 19, 2002
As you can see, the school year resources for funding for 2000
and 2001, again, Collier County had a total of 12 nurses at the cost of'
a little over 444,000. Naples Community Hospital had 9.4 nurses
with a cost of 366,000, and the health department is going to address
their costs in their presentation.
And our funding for the 2001-2002 school year, Collier County
public schools had over 491,000 for nursing services; NCH had
525,000 over for NCH hospital costs; and then Collier County Health
Department costs which will be covered.
If you look at the school health program for 2001, 2002, you can
see the contributions with Collier County public schools, 250, for the
board support for our program, the 491,000 that is going into direct
services for the medically fragile students for our board, and the
Collier County Board of Commissioners, which is the new money
that we received this year, 250,000, which allowed us to expand our
service with 10 new people -- 5 RNs, and 5 LPNs -- for a total of
991,000. That does not include NCH's contributions of 182,000 for
the first semester of this year, which covered nursing services from
August until December.
If you look at our model, the challenge that we face, we're a
growth county; we're a growth school system. We're continuing to
build schools. Next year we'll have two new elementary schools
opening. The following year we'll have three new schools opening.
If we look at Model A which is a nurse in every school, that would be
36 RNs at a cost of roughly 1.4 million. If you look at Model B
which is pretty much of a model that we're operating under where it's
a combination of nurses, RNs and LPNs, the cost is a little bit less,
1.265. If we continue on the current model that we have right now in
place, an estimate would roughly be 690,000 to provide what we
have.
I have some letters that I'd like to just share with you briefly
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February 19, 2002
before I close. They just sort of are letters of support that we
received from building principals and parents who have benefited as
a direct result of the boards', combined boards', contribution. This
one in particular is from the principal at Gulf Coast High. She
indicates that there has been an increased need for school healthcare
through -- as their program continues to grow there. The needs have
been compounded by the enormous proportions of Gulf Coast has
grown to nearly 2300 students and 175 staff. On an average day we
have over 50 students in the clinic for a variety of reasons. And,
unfortunately, emergencies are not uncommon. Decisions regarding
healthcare issues are made often, and healthcare professionals and
those decisions have to be made frequently by the nurse. With the
full-time nurse in place at the campus, this has allowed us to provide
quality medical care.
Another one indicates from a parent that her child is wearing a
pump for insulin delivery, and there are times where mistakes can be
made and that it is important and critical to have a nurse on staff to
help monitor that problem. And the parent goes on to say that they
are extremely appreciative for the full-time nurse that has been in
place at that school.
Just find one other one here for you. This is a letter from a
parent who has a child who has an endroperine (phonetic) disorder,
and they have an adrenalin crisis at times. And there are also needs
for the nurse in the building for that particular child, as well as in that
building several students who have severe allergies that require
epipen treatments and nine students who have asthma and need
inhalers.
There is no end to the stories that I could share with you today
about the need for a full-time nurse in each of our buildings. So you
can see, just from -- briefly the comments that we've had here today
at the podium, that it does make a difference having a full-time nurse
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February 19, 2002
in place.
In closing, why do we need our school nurses? In order to
provide the quality of healthcare services in a safe environment, more
school nurses and an increase in funding are needed. School nurses
can impact the health and educational outcomes of our students.
Healthy students make better learners. Better students make a
healthy community, and, basically, we need our school nurses.
At this point in time I'll be glad to call up my partners, and we
will be glad to answer any questions that you may have in regards to
our school health program. Elaine Wade from NCH, Susan Craig
and Roger Evans from Collier County Health Department, and Donna
Gabe (phonetic) from Collier County Public Schools. Any
questions?
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: Questions on behalf of the
commissioners? I'd just like to make a comment. I -- I do appreciate
very much what you have done. And, Anne Goodnight, on behalf of
your board, I want to thank you, my board to your board, for stepping
forward and making this happen. This was quite a step forward in
our community. I hope it will continue into the distant future.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: I do have a question, as a matter of
fact.
COMMISSIONER FIALA:
RNs and 18 LPNs in the schools.
program.
MS. WADE:
nursing program.
COMMISSIONER FIALA:
MS. WADE: Correct.
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: Commissioner Fiala.
You have 18 and 18 right now, 18
Is that what you have? The present
I'm Elaine Wade, the director of the NCH school-
That's a projection.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: How do you have them now?
MS. WADE: We have a combined for NCH 19.4 nurses.
Five
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February 19, 2002
of them are LPNs, and the rest are RNs.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: How do you figure out which
schools to send the LPNs and which ones the RNs?
MS. WADE: Basically I think we've hired excellent staff, and
the schools are staffed by -- I try to keep the same nurses that have
been there in the past for continuity for both the program and the
students. And the LPNs are very capable. They all came with many
years of pediatric and emergency room experience, and they are
supported by myself and other mentoring RNs. So, I mean, I think
across the board they function well where they're assigned.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: I know you run a fine program
because I've had an inside look at it, frankly. But I was just
wondering do you put RNs more in elementary schools or in high
schools? I didn't know if there was -- there was a rationale behind
assigning them.
MS. WADE: Really, it depends. I have LPNs in some of the
middle schools and some of the elementary. All of our high schools
have full-time RNs at the present time.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Oh, okay. Thank you.
MS. ABBOTT: I have a question.
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: Yes. Go ahead, Miss Abbott.
MS. ABBOTT: We have projection to use LPNs, and I believe
that there was a law or a policy that -- is it that an LPN has to work
under an RN, or is there any reason why we couldn't use LPNs at all
of the schools?
MS. WINTERREY: Well, I have to tell you I just came back
from a national meeting on school-nursing, and there are many, many
models to address school health. And LPNs and school clinic aides
are part of the national models out there. LPNs in this state need to
be supervised by an RN.
MS ABBOTT: Is it one on one, or could we assign more --
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February 19, 2002
MS. WINTERREY: They do not have to be on site, no.
MS. ABBOTT: So we can assign more LPNs per RN, and that
would stretch our dollars further. Is there a significant difference in
dollars?
MS. WINTERREY: Absolutely, yes.
MS. ABBOTT: Is that something we could study so we could
compare the difference in the costs and see how maybe we can make
that money go further?
MS. WINTERREY: Well, I really think we have to look at the
best model. And I think the program really goes how the leadership
and how the program is developed and managed. And I think we
could have a variety of ways of addressing school health here in
Collier.
MS. ABBOTT: But if an LPN is sufficient for the school or
more than adequate, we don't want to hinder anybody, but we're
already using that program.
MS. WINTERREY: Yes.
MS. ABBOTT: Then if that would be adequate and sufficient,
then there would be no reason to not use more; is that correct?
MS. WINTERREY: Myself and my administration really feel
comfortable with the -- the model that we're using, and I think
very
my LPNs are doing an excellent job down here. MS. ABBOTT: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: Commissioner Coyle.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I
believe you showed us some national statistics earlier concerning
the -- the desired ratio and the actual ratio nationwide for RNs to
students. Can you tell me what ratio you have now and -- and what is
your goal?
MS. WINTERREY: The national statistic that we referenced
was 1 to 750. And many districts in the State of Florida exceed that
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February 19, 2002
significantly and are over the 1 to 2500. At one point we were almost
double that here, and now we're down to a little over 2,000 in Collier
County as a result of the new infusion of dollars.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: So 1 per 2,000 is what it is right
now.
MS. WINTERREY: Right. We are trying to get that ratio
lower, and, obviously, as we look at how we deliver those services to
the students in Collier County, depending on the type of model will
make that ratio become even lower. But I know that we're
appreciative of what we have right now. Is that where we want to
be? No, it's not, but it's a step in the right direction, and we're
evolving into program delivery.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Is it your intent to try to get to the
1-per-750 level?
MS. WINTERREY: I think that would be wonderful, but I don't
think that's probably ideal. Fiscally it's going to be almost impossible
to obtain, especially in a growth county the way we are, but I would
like to have it reduced lower than what it currently is, yes.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: One more question.
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: Commissioner Fiala.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: We provided the funding this year.
There was a lot of hassle about it, but we -- we knew that this
program was extremely important, but we -- we did it for one year
only. Are -- are you on -- are you in an area now where you'll be able
to fund this school-nursing program by yourself?.
MS. WINTERREY: I think for Collier County public schools or
any school district in the State of Florida to take on the funding full
time for school nurses without a collaborative partnership is fiscally
almost impossible for us to do. We're extremely gracious -- grateful
for the donation that you contributed to our school health program.
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February 19, 2002
We're continuing to look at grants; we're continuing to look for other
funding sources. But it's a very lean year, as you're well aware of, in
the State of Florida, particularly in education and healthcare services.
So we have some significant concerns about funding.
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: I might be able to help with
something. There's $300,000 in funds that the school system will be
coming into -- be coming into very shortly. Originally 20 years ago
the money was bonded. It's a pari-mutuel money, three hundred
some thousand plus or minus a little bit, and that will be coming into
effect this next year. And I would think that since this is found
money, that this might be able to help towards the county's share to
keep the program going without any difficulty. That would be a
suggestion at this point in time.
The county is going to, from what I -- all indications I've seen,
it's going to be an uphill fight to be able to bring around additional
funding for the coming year. I've seen us as a catalyst to make this
happen. I -- I don't see probably the county getting involved in the
long range, but, once again, too, we're always open to your
suggestions and ideas. And let's see, we're going to go to Linda
Abbott and then to Commissioner Henning.
MS. ABBOTT: Thank you. I'm going to reiterate the same
question just one more time just for my clarification, please, and
forgive me for not noting how many -- what the mix was now. What
is our mix of RNs to LPNs currently, and what is the difference in
average salaries that we would incur?
MS. WINTERREY: Right now, Mrs. Abbott, we have five
LPNs in place. This is the first time we've ever been able to utilize
the LPN concept, so we're kind of on experimental ground, if you
will, with the use of those LPNs. Primarily those LPNs were
assigned based on acuity needs of the students, the building sites as to
what is the medical needs at that particular campus.
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February 19, 2002
MS. ABBOTT: I see but--.
MS. WINTERREY: And as we grow out here, we're looking at
the possibility of changing that ratio so that possibly -- obviously,
we're going to get more bang for our buck, if you will, by using more
LPNs. So that is being studied right now.
MS. ABBOTT: Okay. Thank you very much.
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: Commissioner Henning.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Thank you. It's -- school-
nursing program is a great program, and I think it's a needed
program. But it's a function of the schools, a day-to-day function that
I believe. And I don't -- with the challenges that the county has, the
county commissioners with funding of our concurrency items, I don't
think the -- the county can step up again and -- and help out with
this -- with this need, so I would hope the school -- school board
members would sharpen up their pencils and see what they can do to
keep this program going.
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: Commissioner Coyle.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: With respect to the money you
mentioned that would be available next year, did you mean next
fiscal year or next calendar year?
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: Mr. Olliff, can you enlighten us
on that?
MR. OLLIFF: I'm sorry. What was the question?
COMMISSIONER COYLE: The question was, the money
that -- that Commissioner Coletta mentioned that would be available
next year.
MR. OLLIFF: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Does that mean we can consider
that money when we create the next fiscal year budget, or are we
talking about next year's budget review process?
MR. OLLIFF: You're talking about the fiscal year '03 budget.
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February 19, 2002
What was pari-mutuel funds that were dedicated to a bond issue, the
last bond payment is made in fiscal year '02, the year we're currently
in. So by agreement, the balance of the monies go directly to the
school board for their use.
Now, it's up to the school board to use that money as they
choose when it gets distributed to them, but it's about 300 -- if I recall
about 320, $25,000 that will be transferred through the county
government budget directly to the school board starting fiscal year
'03 or October of this year.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: So -- good. Thank you very
much.
MS. ABBOTT: Is -- is that our money? Is that the school
board's money?
CHAIRMAN COLETTA: That will be the school board's
money, correct.
MS. ABBOTT: Because of agreement or because it was
originally the school board's and it's coming back to us?
MS. GOODNIGHT: No. Actually what happened -- Anne
Goodnight for the record. Actually what happened is that the county
commission-- when the pari-mutuel began at Bonita Springs, there
was a state law that said that it would be shared between the school
district and the county commission, but the county commission at
that time in their wisdom felt like they needed the money for
something else, and they bonded it, and so the school district has only
been getting a certain percentage of that or whatever. And so when it
comes back, you know, as far as I'm concerned, I think that since
we've gotten such a small percentage of it, that, you know, the school
district should certainly get more than its fair share for a While since
the county has taken up most of it in bond issue. Do you under -- do
you understand?
MS. ABBOTT: Yes. Thank you. So it sounds like at least for a
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February 19, 2002
year, the school board can --.
MS. GOODNIGHT: In my opinion, it should be longer by that.
MR. OLLIFF: Actually by -- by assigned agreement you get the
monies from here on out, and you get 100 percent of the monies from
here on out. This coming fiscal year '03 is about $320,000 more than
it was in the last 20 years. In the last 20 years or so, you've gotten
about 25 percent of the revenue. From here on out, you get 100
percent of the revenue by agreement.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: If-- excuse me.
CHAIRMAN COLETTA: Go ahead, Commissioner Coyle.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: If this money was bonded, what
has happened to permit us to release it now?
MR. OLLIFF: This is the last year of the bond payment. It was
a 20-year issue, and this is the 20th year.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER COLETTA: So I think that would be some
help. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't be proactive in some of
our lobbyist efforts to help the school board whenever possible. And
I'm sure that through public health or other departments if we see
grants that are available, we'll assist you in any way possible to
obtain these grants. And we are an interested partner in other
avenues of the school systems involved and as far as your -- your
playgrounds and our parks cooperatively. There's going to be a
number of other ventures we'll be in together.
Any other questions or comments from the commissioners?
MR. YORK: I just have a -- Don York for the record. Ideally
then, what you're saying, 750-to-1 ratio, we'd need 45 nurses --.
MS. WINTERREY: Next year --
MR. YORK: -- based on 36,000 kids.
MS. WINTERREY: Right. Next year we'd have a big -- huge
amount of nurses to hire, and we thought we'd have a difficult time
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February 19, 2002
this year hiring the ten extra nurses. But surprisingly enough,
especially with the critical shortage nationally of nurses, we did not
have that difficulty. I think a lot of people found their nursing career
conducive with working in the Collier County Public Schools, and
we were very fortunate, but we would have a hiring difficulty if we
would go to that ratio. Not to mention fiscally, I think it would be
very difficult to manage.
MR. YORK: My guess would be it would cost us a lot? Two
million?
MS. WINTERREY: That would cost us significantly more than
our projection right now with the combination of LPNs and RNs, yes.
CHAIRMAN COLETTA: Mr. Mudd, do we have any speakers
on this subjected?
MR. MUDD: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN COLETTA: Mr. Olliff?.
MR. OLLIFF: Mr. Chairman, before you leave the topic, I do
believe the public health department had a five-minute presentation
they wanted to make as well.
CHAIRMAN COLETTA: Dr. Colfer.
DR. COLFER: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, commissioners,
members of the school board. For the record, I'm Dr. Joan Colfer.
I'm the director of the Collier County Health Department. It's a
pleasure to be here this morning, first of all, to thank both groups of
you for listening to us last year when we came before you and said,
you know, this program really needs some help. Even if it's just
onetime help, we really do need to give it a shot in the arm and get
the school nurse program moving.
Susan Craig, who is sitting here in front of me, is our director of
nursing and also the supervisor of our school health program for the
health department. She's going to highlight the preventative aspects
of the school health program. She's going to focus on both our
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February 19, 2002
screening and our immunization efforts. I think you will be surprised
at the sheer amount of services that are provided to this segment of
our population and our schools, as well as some of the health status
outcomes that we're going to show you this morning. And with that,
Susan, I'll turn it over to you.
MS. CRAIG: Good morning. As Dee Winterrey said, this is --
providing for the health of our students is really a partnership, and
Dee's gone over the health services aspect of that very well. So I'm
really not going to touch on that at all. The mission of public health
is -- particularly relative to school children is promoting and
protecting the good health of all school children. By statute the
health department is required to develop a school health services plan
in collaboration with the district school, Collier County Public
Schools, and the School Health Advisory Committee. At minimum
this plan provides for health screening, referral and follow-up of
health problems, health counseling, and immunizations, linkages to
health treatment in the community, consultation with parents
regarding health attention, nutrition assessment, and quality
assurance through record reviews.
The CHD is kind of in transition now. Four years ago we began
working to provide a full-service school model, and we had two
nurses in two schools. We now have one nurse, and that one nurse is
no longer in one school but shares schools. So we are kind of in a
transition period from looking at providing the direct care in the
school health room to looking at and evaluating services, are we
giving the right services in the right way, getting the outcomes that
we want, looking at detection of routine communicable diseases to
preparing for mass communicable disease types of events such as has
happened in other sections of our state, meningitis, etc., these kinds
of outbreaks can be devastating to a school system and to the student
population if you're not ready to handle those, moving from
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February 19, 2002
individual student-based health promotion education to student
population-based health promotion services and looking at what had
been a minimal schoolhouse screening program to a more enhanced
health screening program.
The activities that we will be focusing on are school health
screenings, both public and private, which we are required by law to
do, follow-up of positive screens to ensure that children who have
hearing deficits, vision deficits, etc., are, in fact, followed up and get
the treatment they need, establishing linkages with health providers
so that students who require healthcare and don't have a medical
home can get that healthcare, and monitoring student immunization
status.
Case management of students with problems, head lice
problems, other sorts of problems that require home visits, and
student population based health promotion and prevention initiatives:
Tobacco avoidance, obesity prevention, and preventative dental
health.
Why is it that we're -- we're switching to this preventative focus?
I think because we've worked hard to getting those school health
services in the schools, but ultimately if you keep children healthy,
you cut down on those number of visits to the -- to the health room,
so that's where we're trying to focus some of our attentions. The
single-most significant decision in healthcare is providing children
and youth with quality coordinated school health programs with a
strong emphasis on prevention. There needs to be a shift from a
predominant focus on illness to an orientation that includes health
promotion and prevention.
One of the two major gaps in today's healthcare system is the
lack of preventative services for youth. And optimal health and the
ability to learn are inextricably linked. Health screening data, some
of our data from 2001-2002, you'll see that we screen for vision
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February 19, 2002
anywhere between 10,000 and 120,000 children a year. We're not
finished for this year, so the -- the red bar you'll notice is -- is slightly
lower.
In terms of our screening outcomes, of the children who are
screened, the blue bar shows you the number that had a negative
outcome that required some kind of follow-up. The red bar shows
you those who actually received that follow-up, and the yellow bar is
the percentage of those, the number of those who received follow-up
who actually needed some sort of follow-up medical treatment. And,
as you look at this, you can see that when we're able to get and follow
children up for vision, 95 percent of them end up needing some sort
of intervention, 65 percent for hearing, 87 percent for scoliosis, and
94 percent for growth and development. Actually, 25 percent of that
94 percent actually have -- are beginning and have medical problems
that need attention based on they're overweight.
Obesity and overweight is now a national health epidemic. And
if you look at these, these are results from our 2001-2002 screening.
You'll note the red line was the national rate for students 6 to 17 in
1962. Basically 5 percent of the student population were obese; in
1983 to '94 for the 6- to 11-year-old population, about 13 percent.
And for the 12- to 17-year-old population, it was about 11.5 percent.
Clearly, when you look at this data, we can see that we have a lot of
students who are suffering from overweight and obesity.
Immunization, in the fiscal year-- in the school year 2000-2001,
we made an effort to go in and review as many of the schools as we
could for immunization status. We reviewed 27 schools and out of
those, after doing a cursory review through the computer system,
found that there were 2,962 records that we actually would sit down
and review for possibly outdated immunizations. We found that
there were 1,908 missing immunizations. Now, that's not 1,908
students because one student may be missing more than one. We
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February 19, 2002
have a population in Collier that school population that is frequently
transient coming in and out of schools. And trying to keep track of
this is, at best, a difficult job. And so that is one area where we're
looking to put more of our resources towards.
This just shows the type of immunizations that were missing.
The CCH staff there is -- and when I'm talking about our school's
health staffing here, I'm talking about the sum of school health
staffing that addresses school health issues, not just the school nurse
in the school health room. We have one administrator. We have four
full-time RNs. We have eight part-time RNs, mostly field-type staff;
two LPNs; three part-time family support workers that assist with
screenings; part-time nutritionists and a part-time health educator.
Our budget for the total school health program for this year is
expected to be $341,337. And the revenues that get brought in are
334,566. As you can see, there's a -- a deficit there that we'll be
making up with our general revenue dollars. Thank you very much.
Any questions?
CHAIRMAN COLETTA: Yes, Mrs. Fiala.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: You know me. I have questions. I
actually have three.
CHAIRMAN COLETTA: Good questions.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Thank you. The first one is
regarding head lice that you mentioned. Do you provide medication
or shampoo to those families who qualify for reduced lunches?
MS. CRAIG: There is a program this year through the schools
that the health department works with the schools in procuring the
medications, but they are -- they are provided to the children through
the school nurse program.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Okay, fine. So -- so that is taken
care of. I was worried about, you know, you can have an infection of
head lice, but if you don't give any -- give the families who can't
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February 19, 2002
afford the medication a way to combat it, then it's a problem.
Secondly, I was wondering if the school-nursing program or the
public health unit will be providing some type of counseling to those
students that have -- have been -- I'm sorry to say it this way --
infected with Ian Harvey's --
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Virus.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: - - jibberish -- yes, thank you. I'm
certain that you're addressing the need for some type of counseling
for these students. I'm just wondering, who would offer that?
MS. CRAIG: I believe that -- counseling to this point has
primarily been the --.
DR. WHITE: That would take place at the school level. If
something should become more severe, then we would make
recommendations and work jointly with agencies outside of the
school.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: And you are addressing that
presently; right?
DR. WHITE: Absolutely.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Good. And, thirdly -- and this is an
easy one -- do you have volunteers that help you with these
prevention programs?
MS. CRAIG: Yes, we do. We have volunteers that help with
our immunization programs in the middle schools. In terms of the
direct services, we do not have many volunteers if you're talking
about in the school health room where we have nurses. But we do in
our -- in our prevention programs and in our immunization programs.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN COLETTA: Commissioner Coyle, then
Commissioner Abbott.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Thank you. With respect to the
screening of immunizations, is this accomplished by nurses on the
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February 19, 2002
se -- your-- your staff, or are they accomplished by people who are
nurses on staff at the schools, under the school-nursing program, or
both?
MS. CRAIG: Both.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Both. Okay. So -- so that the --
the nurses on site at the schools actively participate in the screening
for immunization status. MS. CRAIG: Yes.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Okay. Thank you.
MS. ABBOTT: I was curious about the immunizations, too, and
when we find that many in deficit, are those requirements to enter
school, and are those also -- does the health department offer some
sort of method of obtaining those at the school site? I guess it would
take --.
MS. CRAIG: We currently have monthly immunization clinics
at the middle schools so as to make it easy for the parents to be able
to get their children immunized.
The health department has also started several years ago having
evening immunization clinics. They're clinics that don't require an
appointment, so parents can come in whenever it is convenient for
them, as well as our -- our usual immunization clinics during the
daytime. And we're always looking at other types of opportunities
that will help get that population immunized.
(Chairman Coletta was no longer present for the remaining
proceedings.)
MS. ABBOTT: Is it a requirement for those students to have
those immunizations by law to attend school? MS. CRAIG: Yes.
MS. ABBOTT: So -- okay. So we need to really make sure that
those students have the immunizations on a regular basis.
MS. CRAIG: And I think that's -- that's what we're trying to do.
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February 19, 2002
As I said, we deal with a transient population, students coming in the
middle of the school year, transfer and transfer of records, which by
law we're allowed to accept the transfer of records. Sometimes by
the time you get those they may not always match up with a hard
copy. So there are a lot of systems issues that we're looking at to -- to
improve that. But I have to tell you that those rates probably are
much better than many other counties. I don't know if you've heard --
listened to the news recently and heard Washington, D. C., is having
a terrible problem with immunizations. It's not an easy issue, and I
think we've -- I think it looks so high because we've looked at it.
We've gone in and really done a comprehensive review that not too
many schools and health departments really do.
MS. ABBOTT: But it -- I guess it sounds like it's the school
district's responsibility to make sure that those students have their
immunizations, and you don't want to hinder the child from attending
school, but at the same time there has to be some way to enforce that.
MS. CRAIG: I see that as a combined responsibility. I think all
three of the partners involved in school health have a responsibility
for that.
MS. ABBOTT: Uh-huh.
MS. GOODNIGHT: And we do have that. You have to have
all of your shots by the time that you're in kindergarten. And then if
you're -- if you don't have -- if you're not up to date with your shots
by 7th grade, then you're not allowed to come to 7th grade until you
have all of your shots brought up to date. And the health department
does work with us with the after -- you know, in the evening so that
parents can get the shots and everything that they do. But these are
requirements of the school system. So the school system is doing
their job as far as making sure that -- that everyone that comes in on
these certain grades have all of their shots up to date.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Commissioner Fiala.
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February 19, 2002
COMMISSIONER FIALA: If that's the case, then how did you
have 1907 -- you didn't say students.
MS. CRAIG: Right, missing immunizations.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: -- missing immunizations?
DR. COLFER: I'm Dr. Colfer again for the record. Susan,
maybe if you could go back to the slide that's the pie chart and shows
the individual immunizations that are missing. Go back to -- I think
it's slide No. 15. Can you do that or you can't?
MS. CRAIG: I'd have to load up, but I can tell you that out of
those -- some of those -- 25 percent were MMRs. That's a new
requirement.
DR. COLFER: Measles, mumps and rubella.
MS. CRAIG: Measles, mumps and rubella. The second-- the
second immunization. The same thing for hepatitis B. Most of these
outdated or missing immunizations were hepatitis B. This is a new
requirement that occurred four or five years ago now that we are still
playing catch up on and trying to get students who as they enter the
7th grade to -- from 6th grade to 7th grade now need to meet that
requirement where they didn't need it to enter school. And I think
that's a big part of the issue. As new immunization requirements
came due, there's a -- a ramp-up time to really get all of the students
up to date.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: So then you're saying everybody
from 7th grade on is already immunized. These 1907 are all below
7th grade?
MS. CRAIG: No, no. It is a combination of-- of children in all
grade levels. But just by the virtue of the fact that 49 percent of those
missing immunizations were hepatitis immunizations, what that tells
me is that a lot of them were in the age group of 7th grade and up for
whom that became a new requirement several years ago.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Commissioner Coyle.
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February 19, 2002
COMMISSIONER COYLE:
answered. Thank you.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING:
comments?
(No response.)
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING:
impact fees update.
My question has just been
Okay. Any other questions,
Let's move it to Item B,
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: Good morning. Good morning,
everyone. I'm here from -- my name is Jacquelyn Hubbard-
Robinson, and I am an assistant county attorney for Collier County. I
have been working along with David Weigel, who is the county
attorney, on the issues regarding school impact fees. And particularly
our office was asked to do a legal analysis regarding whether or not
the staff's position is legally defensible, that is, should the staff-- can
the staff decide to collect unpaid school impact fees.
And the answer is attached to your agenda packet today. And
I'd just like to briefly discuss our understanding of the law on this
issue for you. I might add that our office has been in discussion with
Mr. Clapper, who is the school board attorney, and we have discussed
the legal ramifications of such actions. And we are in agreement in
terms of how we probably should proceed.
Essentially, the analysis asks the question, is county staff's
position legally defensible in concluding that owners of residential
property may be required to pay school impact fees on certain
properties built prior to the Florida Supreme Court decision in
Aberdeen, which is the Seminole case regarding the imposition of
school impact fees, and prior to the recording of deed restrictions
limiting residents to adults only in that particular development.
And the conclusion that we reached is that this position is, in
fact, defensible. There's a short discussion of the factual basis for the
question that's in my memorandum. I'll go through that with you
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February 19, 2002
briefly.
There are many residential developments in the state of Florida,
really, which have different types of housing within the development.
And the development is advertised at least to be for persons who are
55 years old or older. Many have lease provisions or declarations of
condominium or bylaws or other rules and regulations that attempt to
limit the length of time someone who is school aged can reside within
those communities. However, most of these particular types of rules
and regulations are easily amendable. And that was the situation that
was been -- that has been examined by the board over a period of
approximately ten years. There are a number of cases in which the
Florida Supreme Court has held that the imposition of school impact
fees are legally permissible. The most important case for this issue
was a 1991 case, St. Johns County, which I do talk about in the
memorandum, and the most recent case, Aberdeen, occurred in May
of the year 2000. So the court has been grappling with this issue for a
long time.
In Collier County we calculated and assessed school impact fees
after a study was conducted by a firm out of Washington state,
Henderson and Young. They did a study, and they -- they tracked a
number of factors. But after the study the Board of County
Commissioners decided to impose school impact fees which the
county collects for the benefit of the school board. And the
calculation basically held that these fees may be based upon a
determination of, one, the burden created by new development from
the community as a whole. And I'd like to point out here that there is
a distinction that the court makes for developments and -- as opposed
to single-family homes.
The firm prepared the study and did a fairly precise
mathematical analysis of the residential patterns in Collier County
analyzing both the benefits and the impacts and the related costs of
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February 19, 2002
new development. And they divided housing in Collier County into
three categories, and these three categories were incorporated into the
school impact fee ordinance adopted by Collier County. So they
determined that essentially there are three types of housing that
should be assessed a fee: Single-family, multifamily, and mobile
homes. They made no other distinctions.
Included within the definition of multifamily residences were
ACLF and as defined at that time under the Florida Statutory section
of 40.4026 which still exists today. That was in 1992 that they
included ACLF. And that ordinance has been in effect based upon
that study to today.
I would like to point out at this point -- at this point, however,
that I was part of the selection committee for Collier County to select
the consultant to perform an updated study. And on February 26th
the short list will be presented to the Board of County
Commissioners. The number-one ranked firm by that committee was
the Henderson and Young firm, the same firm that conducted our
initial study.
That firm -- or-- or if that firm -- if no contract can be worked
out with that firm, assuming that the Board of County Commissioners
will approve the short listing, it will be asked to do a few things a
little bit differently than it was asked in the early '90s. One aspect of
it is that we will ask the consultant at the direction of the
transportation administrator to study, including as -- as -- as costs,
buses and ancillary facilities to the schools, such as roadways and
sidewalks and things of that nature to make sure that we can pay for
those out of the impact fee collected.
Now, to get back to my report here, the power to enact school
impact fees is not limitless. It is conditioned by the U.S. Supreme
Court and also by the dictates of the Florida Supreme Court.
Essentially the courts have held that residential housing is
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February 19, 2002
subject to school impact fees unless at the time of the payment of the
fee they can demonstrate through a recorded deed restriction that they
will have no children at any time in that development and, therefore,
they will place no burden on the school system and are, therefore,
exempt from the payment of school impact fees. So it's a relatively
narrow exemption, and it appears to be limited to developments that
have a recorded restriction on the use of the facilities within the
development that will prevent children from ever residing on the
property.
I think the -- the basic test, at least as we understand it, is that --
and I've stated that in the conclusion on page 5 of-- of my handout
there. The court used very restrictive language in the Aberdeen case
in expressing the permissive parameters of an exemption for adults-
only communities. And that was that the covenants, conditions, and
restrictions must preclude any owner from changing the character of
the community. And the conclusion that was reached was that unless
a development or a residential property owner can demonstrate that it
was entitled to an exemption at the time for payment of the fee,
which is when the building permit is pulled, it is obligated, just like
every other similarly situated property owner, to pay its school
impact fees.
Staff at the present time is in the process of doing an analysis of
existing developments to determine which developments, in fact, did
not pay their school impact fees at the time their building permits
were -- were pulled. And the consensus appears to be at this time
among staff, the county, the school board, and tacitly at least from
Dwight Brock's office, the county clerk, the clerk of courts, that the
county should endeavor to collect the fees. And we're in the process
of trying to determine exactly the method that will be utilized to do
SO.
So if you have any questions --
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February 19, 2002
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Questions, Commissioner
Coyle?
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Yes, I have a question. Jackie,
this is a -- a very complex process when we start going back in time
to try to determine how we -- we collect impact fees. Now, I won't
belabor that point today. I -- I presume this is coming before the
Board of County Commissioners at some later date for-- for decision
making?
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: Apparently so, yes.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Okay. I will save my -- my
questions and comments then until that point in time.
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: I would say that we do have
records that indicate when the fee -- when the permit was pulled and
who pulled the permit and for what use it was supposed to have been
used for.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: The problem comes, as I see it,
when the ownership has changed since that time. Are you going to
charge a new owner for an impact pea -- fee for that property that was
actually -- an exemption was given to a prior owner? That becomes a
fairly complex process, I think.
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: We -- we do agree that it's a
fairly complex process, and we are in the process of trying to
determine the ownership issues. And the ordinance in effect that was
adopted by the Board of County Commissioners in 1992 states that
the duty to pay the fee runs with the land.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Yeah, I understand. But fairness
is a different issue.
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: I agree. We're -- we definitely
agree with you on that one also.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: All right.
MR. YORK: I have a question.
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February 19, 2002
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: Yes.
MR. YORK: In the issuance of a permit, isn't it required that all
impact fees be paid at the time?
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: Yes.
MR. YORK: So if-- if we are going back now to say that this
particular property didn't pay their school impact fee, how -- how was
the permit issued in the first place, and are we now second-guessing
ourselves?
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: Well, from the information
that -- that has been provided to us from staff, it appears that there are
a variety of reasons why the fees were not assessed at the time that
the permit was pulled. There are also some instances in which the --
the fee may have been pulled under one category, say, such as a
condominium in which it was assessed the fees and then later came
back and said we're not a condominium, we're an adult-only facility,
and we should be refunded the fee. So there are a number of
different things that have happened. And we're also in the process of
attempting to determine those answers also. MR. OLLIFF: What--
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Linda Abbott.
MS. ABBOTT: Thank you, Mr. Henning, Commissioner
Henning.
How far back would we go -- I think Commissioner Coyle is --
is making a good point. I mean, it sounds so cumbersome, but there's
a lot of money at stake, so it's a very important issue, especially for
the school board, because we're -- our funds are -- are dissipating, as
they are everywhere. So I was wondering how far back would we go,
why were they not assessed, those properties at the time, and you've
just alluded to one answer. But what caused us to realize all of a
sudden that that wasn't done properly, and what brought all of this
about? Why are we going back now and looking at this? And, you
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February 19, 2002
know, it doesn't sound like an easy thing to remedy. Again, there's a
lot of money at stake.
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: I think what brought it about
was an inquiry by counsel for a property owner concerning the
refunded fees. And when the refunded fees were reviewed, the
question arose, well, how did this happen in the first place? And then
after reviewing that particular factual scenario, the question -- second
question was, well, if it happened here, has it happened anywhere
else, and that prompted a review.
And the review seems to indicate that for a variety of reasons,
impact fees may have been not properly assessed at the time that the
building permits were issued, not in a lot but in some developments.
MS. ABBOTT: We're talking about almost $2 million?
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: No, I don't believe we're talking
almost $2 million. I think we're talking somewhere in the
neighborhood of 600,000 to possibly a million. MS. ABBOTT: I thought I saw 1.8.
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: Yes. You may have seen an
earlier list.
Now, in terms of how far we've gone back to look at these, the
ordinance was passed in 1992. So we've looked at school -- well,
we've looked at building permits that were pulled for residential
developments that characterized themselves as being adult only from
1992 to the present.
MS. ABBOTT: And you're talking about the multifamily as
being classified as ACLF?
MS. HUBBARD-ROBINSON: Well, the reason I mentioned
that is because an argument has been raised on more than one
occasion that when the ordinance was adopted, adult congregate or
adult-care facilities were exempt. But in speaking with the
consultant, we've been informed that they -- they were, in fact,
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February 19, 2002
looked at. They were, in fact, included. And if you look at the
existing educational facilities impact fee ordinance or code section,
you would find that in the definition section for multifamily, which is
one of the three uses of-- for impact fee assessment, ACLF is
included. So that seems to substantiate what the consultant said when
he said that they had taken those into consideration.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Mr. Olliff, do you have some
comments?
MR. OLLIFF: Just to help maybe answer Mr. York's question
and to help clarify, this is a very difficult, awkward issue, frankly.
And it's not as -- as clean as anything that we have gone back and
audited and found a problem where the staff having clean rules didn't
apply the rules correctly from the beginning.
In this particular instance, when a development project would
come in, would claim that they were an adult-only living community,
the staff was asking them to show them some sort of proof, and that
proof may have come in the way of marketing information that
showed that it was going to be a 55 or older-type community or
something like that. The staff would then make the determination
administratively that that particular development project wouldn't
have children and probably shouldn't pay an impact fee.
The standard, then, wasn't established legally until the Supreme
Court decision made the decision some years down the road. Then
once the standard is established, that becomes the standard that
probably should have been enforced all the way back from the very
beginning of early adoption of the school impact fee. But it was very
difficult for staff to know what would be the legal standard until that
Supreme Court decision had been rendered. So it's -- it's a difficult
situation to be in, but if today the standard is that it has to be an
irrevocable deed restriction that's recorded, then that is the standard
that we need to apply and that all of those projects back to the
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February 19, 2002
adoption of the school impact fee would be subject to payment of
those impact fees, if that helps any.
MS. ABBOTT: But why would these -- the Supreme Court
decision be retroactive?
MR. OLLIFF: They are saying that that is the only standard.
And from your attorney's legal opinion, they are saying if that is the
only defined standard, then that is the only standard that will suffice.
And if that standard wasn't applied in '92, '93, '94, '95, then -- then
those particular development projects weren't subject to an
exemption.
MS. ABBOTT: Even though it was after the fact? They
wouldn't have had anything to base their decision on. MR. OLLIFF: Yes, ma'am.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: Of course, we're not always
logical, Miss Abbott. But I think, Mr. Chairman, I -- I agree with
Commissioner Coyle that this will need further discussion by the
Board of County Commissioners. It's complex. It is one that we are
thrust into not because we haven't done due diligence but because we
have done due diligence, and now we're going back and reviewing
what we have to -- have to do and apply it situationally I suspect is
what I'm gathering from this. So another -- another chapter will
unfold here in the near future.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Commissioner Fiala.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Just a comment; actually I'm not
looking for an answer. With the ACLF, even though they're -- they're
buildings that house people who are very old and so forth, they also
have staff that are young and have a lot of kids and, for the most part,
live in rental units or places that they've purchased that have never
paid an impact fee. And I think it's interesting that so many of their
staff probably should be paying some kind of an impact fee but never
will and yet they don't have to pay it for hiring these people. It's just
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February 19, 2002
a comment.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Yeah. And I don't know if
that really applies to the discussion here.
I guess I do have a question about the issue, well, even related to
the issue is, how does the school board members feel of what their
role is in -- in this potential lawsuit? Is the school board going to
get -- play an active role in it?
MS. GOODNIGHT: Speaking just as a school board member, I
would think not. I was on the board of county commission when this
took place. And Barbara Berry was the chair at that time. And there
was discussions between the commission and the school board, and
the school board did ask for us to move forward with the impact fee
as a way to help finance some of the buildings that we were going to
incur with the growth.
But now, sitting on the school board, I'm not sure as a school
board member that I would want to get involved in the county's
business. You know, we've never-- we've never collected the
money. It's always been collected, and then whatever was collected
was given to the -- the school board. And I'm not sure that it would
be in our best interests that -- that we got -- got involved in it.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Well, actually, if-- if we do
get these fees due in the court, it is the school board's money, and I
feel it is the school board's business.
MS. GOODNIGHT: I understand. But I'm not sure how much
it's going to cost us in attorney's fees to -- to help to do this, because
I'm sure that if the county decided that they were going to proceed
with this and any lawsuits that incurred after that, I'm sure you're
going to be asking the school board to join in to help pay for it. So --
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Okay.
MS. GOODNIGHT: -- you know, I would need to defer to -- to
staff and-- and have discussions with staff before I would feel
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February 19, 2002
comfortable with it at all.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: And I appreciate your
comments, and I -- the only reason I'm asking is it might be part of
scenario of the decision of the board of commissioners make.
MR. YORK: Well, as a -- as a -- as a board member-- as a
school board member, we're a statutory recipient of those funds. You
know, I -- we don't have a responsibility to collect them, just like
regular taxes. I mean, that's the function of the county commission,
and I agree with Mrs. Goodnight. I -- not knowing what the costs
might be involved and whether or not a good case -- I defer to the
school board attorney. My own opinion is we probably would not
enjoin (sic) the county in the lawsuit.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: I -- I have -- I'm sorry.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Can I ask a question?
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Sure.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: I have a question of the county
staff. Is the amount of money that we collect and transfer to the
school board net of collection costs?
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: I think that we do charge
them a small percentage of collection for administration for impact
fees.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Well, I guess my question really
is, stated simply, is if we spend $200,000 to collect $600,000 in fees,
do we transfer $400,000 to -- to the school board or the entire
amount?
MR. OLLIFF: We -- we'd have to go back and review the
ordinance to see if there's any flexibility in that. Normally most of
our ordinances where there is a collection process there is an
established percentage of the total collection that's available for
administration, and we would have to go back and look and see
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February 19, 2002
historically what we have done and what flexibility did the board
have under these special circumstances.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: My question is not designed to try
to find a back way into getting the school board to pay for it. My
question is really a business decision. How much are we willing to
spend to recover how much money.'? And -- and I think we need to
evaluate that as -- as we move forward.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Miss Abbott.
MS. ABBOTT: And that was a very good question because I
think that without having the exact amount -- and now another figure
has been presented to us -- if we weighed the cost versus the potential
income, it's our really -- it's our responsibility, because we are the
recipients of that, to make sure that the right thing is being done in
collaboration with the county commission. I would like to see more
involvement by the school board as a school board member
individually, my opinion, because it could benefit us. And -- but we
don't have enough of the information right now to make a rationale
decision.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Right. And maybe it's
something that, Anne, you put on the agenda so that before we hear
this issue we know where the school board stands as a whole.
MS. GOODNIGHT: Sure. I'll ask staff to take care of that,
Dr. White.
DR. WHITE: Yes, ma'am.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Any -- David Weigel.
MR. WEIGEL: Thank you. Hello, school board members and
commissioners. The questions you've asked are offensively excellent
questions, and we've been asking some of those same questions
ourselves, particularly in regard to the ability to net out the costs of
litigation or not. Don't have the answer for that one for the floor right
now, but we'll look to provide that to you very quickly. We
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February 19, 2002
understand that what we are dealing with here is what you might call
a technical issue. It's not a savory pleasant thing to say, oh, yes,
we're going to go after anyone, whether it's an older living
community of some variation, as there are variations of these, or
anyone who has had a building permit issued years ago and has not
been collected.
Now, the court in the Aberdeen case provided a bright line,
which is certainly of assistance. But it tells us, the staff,
administrative staff and legal staff, that the logic that's been applied
in the past or the inadvertence that's been applied all have brought us
the same result. We have collected some impact fees from these
ALFs, ACLFs, retirement communities, mobile home parks that are
ostensibly restricted to older citizens. We have collected impact fees
in many cases. And in some cases we have not. We've found where
the -- the staff has applied that logic, that compelling logic, that says
based upon the lease or based upon the sales brochures, based upon
other information, it appears that there will not be children of school
age living in these facilities.
And the court has told us, it's reminded us, that when you look at
individual homes, the fact that you may have old people occupying
an individual home and they're not going to have children or it would
be -- it would seem medically, physically impossible, that doesn't
mean that that house being constructed may not, through its use,
create an impact in the future. So that's kind of the horns, the
dilemma, academic dilemma, that we're dealing with here. There's
some what one might characterize as realities saying older people live
in these homes, live in these facilities. And we have to look as staff
very closely to see are they individually owned or is it a -- quote, a
subdivision, or is it a community where the -- the occupants are
lessees. May the bylaws, the articles of incorporation, the
fundamental documents that put this organization in place and allow
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February 19, 2002
for its operation, are they changeable by a vote of the board of
directors, by something of which the individual occupants do not
have control? That's what we're looking at here. And it's -- there are
many variations of this theme. And we'll be coming back to the
board and talking about the administrative application of assessment.
In regard to lawsuits and the cost of paying for lawyers and the
cost of discovery and all that goes forward, there are two ways
lawsuits work. The county may be a party bringing the lawsuit
forward as a party plaintiff, doesn't have to have the school board
there. But the county and/or the school board or both may be parties
defendant if we are attempting to collect and someone does not wish
to pay and we are going forward with our administrative enforcement
procedures, which are in the ordinance itself.
So these are things that we'll be reckoning with. And
Mr. Yovanovich will be talking to you on what I've been telling you
in some additional detail. And perhaps what may seem compelling
facts that the facts and the law are where we're butting up against
right now, and we're going to have to look at this at a case-by-case
situation. And we'll be in contact with our board. We will -- the
county attorney's staff will not initiate the litigation without the
direction from the board. But if litigation occurs and the county is
sued, we, of course, have to respond and will do so. So that's my
comment right here.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Any other questions,
comments before we go to public speakers?
MS. ABBOTT: Mr. Weigel, the decision has already been made
on the part of the county to go back and look at these properties and
assess them, or is that what you're talking about, going in front of the
county commission?
MR. WEIGEL: We're going to have further discussion with the
county commission. But, unlike any other-- I shouldn't say like any
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February 19, 2002
other aspect of county collection, this comes under review by the
audit through the clerk's office, and we've discussed this with the
clerk, worked with him at this point, and I think collectively, and
we've -- and we've met with the school board attorney also. I will say
on behalf of the county, not to -- to speak to you -- for your attorney,
is that collectively we see an issue here, and we think it's an issue that
requires reconciliation. And at this point there's nothing telling us yet
not to go forward and see where this takes us. MS. ABBOTT: Thank you.
MR. WEIGEL: From the legal point of view.
MS. ABBOTT: Right.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Okay. Mr. Mudd. Let's call --
MR. MUDD: Commissioner, we have two speakers. The first
is Rich Yovanovich followed by Matthew Hoffman.
MR. YOVANOVICH: For the record-- this is where I normally
speak from, so I figured I'm supposed to use this podium. For the
record, Rich Yovanovich representing Aston Care which is the
developer of Aston Gardens, and I represent a few other adult-only
communities.
And what I'm here today is to address both boards, the Board of
County Commissioners and the school board, regarding what you've
heard is a very complex issue and an issue that has evolved over
many, many months and, in our particular case, almost a couple of
years now.
I am here to tell you that I believe county staff has been
applying the impact fee ordinance correctly throughout time. As --
and I provided some legal documents. But Mrs. Abbott asked me
what's the standard for impact fees. Well, to put it in laymen's terms,
you can only charge a property owner for their fair share of the
impact on a system. And in this case it's the school system's capital
facilities. If there is no impact, you cannot charge an impact fee.
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February 19, 2002
And that has been around since 1976, and the Aberdeen case doesn't
do anything to change a standard of law as it applies to educational
impact fees.
The question has become how do you prove you will not have
an impact? That is not an easy standard. Your staff, when it -- the
county staff-- I forget I've got a couple boards here. The county staff
through Phil Tindall met with my client regarding our specific project
before Aberdeen came out. We met with Phil, and we said, Phil,
here's how we operate our facilities: We have contracts with our
residents. We have independent-living facilities. We have assisted-
living facilities, and we have stand-alone villas. The assisted-living
facilities and the independent-living facilities are rental. You rent an
apartment from us. All of the leases have age restrictions in them.
The leases say you must be 55 years older -- 55 years of age or older,
and you can't have your grandchildren come visit you for more than
14 days in a row, 21 days throughout the year. That is how we
assured Mr. Tindall at the time that there was -- there would not be
any children there, thus, no impact on the school system.
On the villas we had a recorded deed restriction. It was not
irrevocable, okay, at the time but, remember, time line, preAberdeen,
post Aberdeen. We have asked the county preAberdeen, what do we
need to do to assure you we're not going to have an impact. We're
willing to do whatever you tell us to do. The county didn't know
what to tell us to do because they didn't have Aberdeen. If they had
the Aberdeen case, they would have said to us record a deed
restriction. We would have done that. You know why I know we
would have done that, because we have done that. We have recorded
a deed restriction on the property which comprises the assisted-living
facilities and the in-- independent -- independent-living facilities.
There is a deed restriction that says there will never be any children
living there. The deed restriction is for 14 days and the 21 over a
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February 19, 2002
year. So that is there. So -- and that applies, candidly, to most of our
buildings before anybody moved in.
The important thing to note is we have to look at this from a
fairness standpoint, as well as, you know, strict technical aspects.
You know, I -- we can disagree over who's going to win the lawsuit,
if there is a lawsuit. My-- my -- what I would like to see today is
some policy direction as to what does the school board want to do
and what does the Board of County Commissioners want to do
because, candidly, we've already gotten our you-did-not-pay letter.
And we've been threatened with a lien on our property. So it has
started. We have had to work through the issuing of C.O.s, and it's
greatly impacting how my client does his business because he's got
several more buildings to C.O. and move people in. It's a $350,000
issue for one of my clients.
So what have we done? We have met with staff, and we asked
under their best available knowledge what should we do to show you
there will be no impact because remember the laws from 1976 is if
there is no impact, you pay no fee. Under their best available
knowledge, it was -- the contract was good enough. And, in fact,
they refunded some money to us. They refunded $74,000 after we
told them we had these contractual provisions and that they believe
they improperly charged the education impact fees.
From that date forward every time we pulled a building permit
they did not charge us impact fees.
Now there came a time where this issue came up again. And
unlike what Mrs. Robinson said to you, this was initiated-- the issue
was initiated by the county, not by an outside attorney because I was
the outside attorney. I was summoned to a meeting at which this
issue came up. And the issue came up as to what do we do about the
building permits where there's no C.O. where they were issued
without charging us impact fees, and they were issued without
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February 19, 2002
charging us impact fees based upon our meeting with Mr. Tindall that
occurred and has been uniformly applied to us.
I -- I got to the meeting, and I think it's fair to say that when they
told me not only were they going to make us pay impact fees on all
the building permits that were outstanding, they were going to go
back and try to recollect the $74,000 they already gave to us, I didn't
react smoothly. I was taken back, and then we had -- after I calmed
down, we worked through how were we going to apply the
ordinances based on where we are and what we need to do.
My hope is that the school board and the county commission
will take a reasonable approach, apply the circumstances that existed
at the time the building permits were pulled, because had we been
told we need to record a deed restriction, we would have done that.
We asked the question. The county -- the county did not know
Aberdeen was out there or was coming. I didn't know it was out
there or coming. They -- we -- you know, you can't predict
everything that's out there. We -- we've done the best we can. The
county staff has done the best they can in implementing an ordinance.
You have to ask yourself the very important question: If you
charge my client $350,000, what service will they receive now that
there is a deed restriction in place that there will be no children? And
we can provide and have provided an affidavit to county staff to show
that the youngest person that has lived in Aston Gardens, the couple
of buildings that have been occupied, is 73 years old. Now, I can
show you that there was never any children, that your staff was
correct in relying upon the lease. I can show you that there will not
be any children in the future. So I can meet the standard of, is there
an impact, the specific benefit to our client. I can meet the standard
that there will be no benefit to our client. If you can't answer the
question as to what the benefit we will receive is, because there is no
benefit and nobody has told me what that benefit is because there are
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February 19, 2002
no children, common sense -- and in Aberdeen the court says logic
tells you you shouldn't charge the impact fee.
So what I would like to see come out of today's meeting is that
you put the burden on the property owner to show you that there were
no children at any point, make them record a deed restriction, and
then the school system is protected. There is no impact. Make us
provide affidavits that there were no children that ever lived there.
Make us record a deed restriction that will not let us have children
there. If we've ever -- if we've misled you, if the affidavit tums out to
be incorrect, then come back and charge those impact fees. They
won't be incorrect.
We have -- you are talking about a $2 million issue when you
look at all of the other ACLFs, the congregate-living facilities,
assisted-living facilities, independent-living facilities. This is a big-
ticket item. It's $350,000 to my client. We've done everything we
could to make the county or satisfy the county as to making sure that
they correctly apply the 1976 law that says it's a dual rational nexus.
Just because the ordinance doesn't provide an exemption in the
text of the ordinance doesn't mean there aren't exemptions out there.
You still have to apply the underlying law which is there's got to be a
benefit to my client. It's not like ad valorem taxes where you don't
have to show a benefit to the property owner. You have to show a
special benefit to the property owner, and you cannot show a special
benefit if there are no children who have ever lived there and there
won't be any children in the future.
I can bore you with my rendition of Aberdeen, which I'm sure
you don't want -- you don't want any more than I've already told you.
We have been working with county staff to come up to -- come up
with what we believe is the fair and legally correct result. This is not
an easy issue. We -- the county has had other impact fee issues
where we've been able to work through those. We hope that this will
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February 19, 2002
be one of those issues that we can work through the issues and do the
right thing and not charge impact fees, if we can meet those
standards, provide you an affidavit that there were no children, and
record the deed restriction, because then you've gotten your Aberdeen
requirements. We're ready, willing, and able to do those things.
I briefly want to respond to a question or a point that
Commissioner Fiala made regarding the people who work at these
facilities.
You look at the facility itself as to impact. You don't look at
those people who work there. You look at where they live to
determine their impact. So if they live in a single-family home, they
will pay their education impact fees. If they live in a multifamily
home, they will pay their education impact fees. You don't look at
where they work; you look at where they reside, not where they
work. So do you want to make a -- sorry, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Well, you asked about benefits.
One of the -- one of the historical problems of ACLFs is -- well,
nursing homes and other types of facilities is that they have a
problem hiring people. One of the benefits would be that the people
that they can hire come out of school system. You asked whether
what the benefits are. And I'm telling you what I think is one of the
benefits.
MR. YOVANOVICH: And you're right, and the cases are clear.
It's got to be a direct benefit if not an incidental or an indirect benefit.
Cap -- impact fees go to capital facilities. You're not building
schools to serve 73-year-olds. You're building schools to serve
basically 18 and under. And that -- an impact fee, you've got to show
that you're building some capital facilities to serve these people
versus taxing them through ad valorem taxes as to those incidental
benefits.
Matthew Hoffman is -- is here. He is with Aston Care. He can
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February 19, 2002
address for you how his operations go about and what happens
throughout the state and -- and the industry custom just so you-all can
under -- hear from him, in addition to me, as to how this is going,
how it is implemented. And we hope that we can get some direction
today, because this will be discussed in front of the city -- the county
commission.
If there's a way to get where we want to be, which is to assure
no impact on the school system that there be direction given to -- to
work through a very complicated issue, instead of drawing a line in
the sand and say, go collect these impact fees and then both sides will
dig in and we'll have -- we'll have a nice -- we'll have a nice round of
litigation and we'll figure out who wins at the end. And as you-all
know, the lawyers will win at the end because we'll all get paid. And
with that, I'll let Mr. Hoffman address you.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Next speaker.
MR. OLLIFF: Matthew Hoffman.
MR. HOFFMAN: My name is Matthew Hoffman. I'm with
Aston Care Systems who is the developer of Aston Gardens. The
development that we're talking about resides on Immokalee Road,
and it's called Aston Gardens at Pelican Marsh. When the
development is complete, it will represent the home of over 400
residents in this county according to the American Seniors Housing
Association, which is an association of these kind of developments
that are throughout the country.
Our type of development has an impact that's normally related to
one-third of the impact of a multifamily development, and that
specifically is relating to traffic and trip generations on the roads and
systems. These residents will represent a large tax base to the county
and also represent a -- little to no impact on much of the
infrastructure. We -- the development that we have, the rent that our
residents pay includes multiple services. It includes -- we have a
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February 19, 2002
limousine, a van, a bus, scheduled transportation. Only 60 percent of
the residents have vehicles and use primarily a lot of the
transportation that is supplied by the community on site.
We have very little impact on a lot of other areas. We have
studies that have shown our developments -- the use of water, the use
of electricity in other developments that we have throughout the state
in working with other municipalities.
As Mr. Yovanovich mentioned, our original intent for our
development is 55 plus. It's written into the leases; it's written into
the contracts and agreements that we have. We were asked to place a
deed restriction on the property. We did. We were asked to make it
revocable; we did. We're working to accommodate in good faith
with -- with the demands of county staff to ensure that we can
provide that there will be no impact on the school impact coming up.
We've -- every municipality throughout the state of Florida I
guess unfortunately deals differently with this issue. Just about 2 1/2
years ago in Hillsborough County, we have a development in Sun
City Center. We looked at the impact fees, how they were assessed.
We went back and were refunded school impact fees and road impact
fees because they determined there was no impact and, therefore, the
impact fee could not be applied as stated in the code.
And in West Palm Beach we're developing a new project there,
and with the knowledge that we've gained from the other
developments, we are going in without paying any impact fees from
the get-go because of the understanding of the impact of our
development on that municipality and its system.
Once the standard was established by the Aberdeen case, we
complied. And it's -- it's a -- as Mr. Yovanovich said, it's a serious
impact to our development. We've incurred lost time in getting
certificates of occupancy and been hampered in the development of
our project because of the change in stance on this impact fee. And
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February 19, 2002
that has a very real impact on our residents when we tell they can
move in on a specific date and they sell their home and they're ready
to move in and we give them notice that they can't move in yet
because the building has not been C.O.'d and they have to change
their move date. It's a very real impact on the satisfaction of our
residents and on the quality of the business that we are attempting to
provide.
So I'd be happy to answer any questions, and I appreciate your
consideration in helping -- giving staff the direction so we can
resolve this and move forward.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Why don't we take a ten-
minute break for the recorder, change the paper and stretch her
fingers.
(A short break was held.)
COMMISSIONER HENNING: Okay. Why don't we get --
reconvene for our workshop so we can get done and get our staff
back to work.
MR. YORK: That agirl. Take control.
MS. ABBOTT: Where's your gavel?
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Any-- any question and
comments about school impact fees? (No response.)
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: I guess the only question I
have for the school board members you heard from-- through public
comments, Rich Yovanovich, is do you think that is what he
presented is -- is -- that's the direction the board of commissioners
should go as far as the evidence of the leases providing -- in the
leases that, you know, you can't have any kids and it's 55 and older?
MS. ABBOTT: Is this the Supreme Court ruling -- is that at our
discretion? It doesn't seem to make sense.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: I would think it's more for
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February 19, 2002
import -- input to the board of commissioners because we're going to
be hearing this issue in a short period of time.
MS. ABBOTT: What-- number one, the amount of money
seems to have changed drastically, so it sounds we're talking about
one-third of what we were originally discussing or at least had in the
memorandum. And then -- and the other thing is that my concern
would be, it is a lot of money, but how do you build a home and buy
it and then years later-- and I don't know how many years later--
somebody comes back and says, by the way, you owe us some
money, and then how many -- our school board attorney,
Mr. Clapper, suggested as well, how many people would we have to
go to in order to claim that income? We're probably looking at quite
a large number of people, which would make it cumbersome for
$600,000.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Right. Anne.
MS. GOODNIGHT: Commissioner, you asked, so I need to
answer the question because you've asked, and otherwise I wasn't
going to give you my opinion. But since you've asked, I'm going to
give you my opinion.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: And I respect your opinion
very highly.
MS. GOODNIGHT: The intent, I believe, that -- the intent of
the county commission in 1992 was not to charge impact fees for any
development that were -- that was 55 and older that -- that that's what
they were going to do, that children were not going to be allowed,
except under this certain criteria. Okay. I would think that the
impact that is going to take place with county government by doing
this today is going to be very political. And I would think that it
would be in all of our best interests that if you only started on a
certain date and then started going forward with this.
Now, I understand that there's also some things that -- that has
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February 19, 2002
been discussed that needs to be protected in the county. I think that
there needs to be some kind of deed restrictions, and I think that the
county should ask these different developments to have deed
restrictions and bring them forward without having them to pay
impact fees, or if they can't, then maybe they -- then maybe the
county should look at the impact fees.
But I'm not sure that because of the intent that the
commissioners had back in the early '90s, I think that staff has been
moving forward with good faith. And because of a lawsuit or a
ruling that has taken place several years later, to go back, I think that
you need to look at what the intent was of the commissioners at that
time and -- and from my point of view and from the discussion that I
remember, it was never the intent that this type of development be
charged impact fees if they did not cause an impact to the services
that are there.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Uh-huh. Okay.
MS. GOODNIGHT: And the other thing is, is no matter who
they are, they're still paying school taxes in the ad Valorem. They're
still paying school taxes. So everybody's paying their fair share in
school taxes. It's just the impact fees that -- that we're looking at
now.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Good point. Thank you.
With no other discussion, we should move on to capital
improvements. The first item is new school and county utility
planning and construction.
MR. OLLIFF: Commissioner Henning, I think Jim Simms
(phonetic) from the school board would probably be the best person
to be able to give you a little overview and discussion about where
the school board is with some of their long-range capital planning.
MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Olliff. Commissioners, school
board members, for the record, I'm Jim Simms. I'm the associate
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February 19, 2002
superintendent for operational services for the school board. And as
you're aware, we're continuing to build schools and, in fact, have
accelerated the construction of some of our schools generated by the
continuing rapid growth in the county. So I've asked Mr. David
Lesanski (phonetic), who was our executive director for facilities
management, to give you a briefing on what we are doing, where we
are doing it and when to give you a feel on the impact to the county
and to provide some context for the subsequent discussions
specifically about utilities and transportation.
And as he's setting up, I would be very remiss if I did not
emphasize the very strong support we receive from the county staff.
We work very closely with them in what I would call a mutually
supporting relationship. So our thanks to you, to Mr. Olliff, to all the
staff for -- for their efforts in helping us as we work through these
challenges that confront the school board. And with that,
Mr. Lesanski.
MR. LESANSKI: Thank you, Mr. Simms. Good morning. It's
a pleasure to stand before this distinguished group this morning.
As you're very aware, the county population is growing by leaps
and bounds. On the school district side, Mr. Michael Kirk who
happens to be standing at the board over there who is our director of
facilities planning and construction is responsible for producing
student enrollment figures.
MR. OLLIFF: Dave, do me a favor. I'm not sure that
microphone is even on. If I could just get you to sit right there at the
comer and use that microphone, I think that would help.
MR. SIMMS: Sure. Is that better? To do that, Michael, to do
projections, he uses projection information submitted by the state as a
basis for his projections but also constantly meets with the county
planning staff to discuss upcoming developments that might also
affect student population.
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February 19, 2002
Today we have approximately 37,000 students in our system.
Based on data we have gathered from county staff, we predict that in
20 years the student population in our district will increase to about
67,000 students. To meet that need we anticipate constructing 18
new schools over the next 20 years.
Let me take a few minutes to highlight some of that information
and some of the challenges that we face along the way, and I'll be
assisted again this morning by Michael Kirk.
The map Michael is displaying -- and you each have a copy of
that same map -- shows some of the anticipated schools, their
location, and expected opening date. As you're probably aware, we're
currently constructing two elementary schools. Osceola Elementary
School is located on property just east of Barron Collier High School.
And Calusa Park Elementary is located on Santa Barbara Boulevard
just north of Davis Boulevard. Both of these schools will be ready
for students in August of this year.
Now, beginning in July of this year, we anticipate starting
construction on another elementary school, a middle school, and two
high schools. Elementary school E was to be open for students in
August of 2005. However, because of the heavy growth in the estates
area, we felt it was prudent to accelerate this school and open it in
August of 2003. The school is located in the estates area. It is in the
area that is beyond the urban boundary, but it is not in the rural fringe
area. Therefore, it is in the area that we are allowed to build in.
However, since the site is beyond the urban boundary, there are
no utilities available. That means that we will need to build a water
and sewer plant on site or possibly tie into the Orange Tree utility
plant. We'll have our engineers study that and provide us with
information as to what the best method is. However, one of the
concerns of the utility would be the distance -- it's approximately 5
miles from the plant -- and also some concerns that DCA might have
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February 19, 2002
about urban sprawl and the urban boundary.
In any case, the need for utilities, however, is not a function of
acceleration. It's a function of the location.
Now, middle school BB was originally scheduled to open in
August of 2004. Again, because of growth, we felt it was also
prudent to open this school in -- in August of 2003. The school is
located in the northwest portion of the county. Access to the site will
be off Livingston Road. In fact, we have had many discussions with
Mr. Feder and his staff regarding the appropriate location for the
access road and the traffic signal. And I want to mention that
Mr. Feder has been most supportive of our needs and is always
willing to meet and discuss our projects long before they're ready for
construction, and we appreciate his cooperation and input he offers.
Next on our list are two new high schools. High school BBB is
to be located in the Orange Tree area and will be open for students in
August of 2004. The location of the school will be on property we
have purchased adjacent to the Orange Tree utility plant. One of the
challenges facing us is the need to obtain water and sewer service
from that Orange Tree utility. There are some issues regarding
available capacity that need to be resolved, but Mr. Mudd and his
staff are helping us work on getting these issues resolved so as not to
affect the opening date of the school, and we appreciate Mr. Mudd's
efforts and look forward to a continued good working relationship
with him and his staff on future projects.
The last of the four projects is high school CCC. The school
was originally scheduled to open in August of 2006. However,
because of growth we felt it was also prudent to open this school in
August of 2004 as well. The school is to be located on a site that is
north ofi-75 and west of Collier Boulevard. Access is off of Collier
Boulevard through a public right-of-way. Access to this sight was to
be provided by the developer of the Magnolia Pond PUD.
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February 19, 2002
Unfortunately, their time line will not meet ours because of our
accelerated schedule. Therefore, we will need to construct the access
road ourselves. We're also in the process of meeting with that
developer to see if there is some sort of a cost-sharing effort that we
can come to an agreement with.
As you can see from the map, there are several more schools on
horizon. I won't take the time to overview each of them, but I will
assure you that as -- as a school board staff, we'll continue to work
closely with your staff and all of the county departments to make sure
we provide the best facilities for our students with the most
infrastructure possible. With that I'll be happy to answer any
questions you might have.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Questions?
I have one question. You mentioned about contacting with
DCA so you're not creating urban sprawl or something like that. Are
you saying that you're going to take students from the urban area and
ship them out to schools in the rural area?
MR. SIMMS: No. But the concern was, I know, from DCA
that if you build them they will come, that -- that aspect. If we -- if
we tie into the utility plant out there, again, that begs the question.
You're extending utilities from there instead of bringing them out
from -- from the county facilities. What is that -- what is that asking
for?
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Uh-huh, okay.
MR. SIMMS: And that's the concern. We don't know if that's a
possibility, but that's a concern.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Just my own personal feelings,
the way I see it is you're putting schools up where the families live.
MR. SIMMS: Yes.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: And that is a very wise
decision that -- in my opinion, again, that the school board made is
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February 19, 2002
we don't want the kids on the -- on the school bus for hours and hours
to get to their destination, the learning center. MR. SIMMS: Correct.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: So congratulations.
MR. SIMMS: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I have one
question, and it goes back to the Orange Tree facility. It looks like
you have two schools that will impact, one for sure; the other can --
possibly could impact that. And I know, Mr. Mudd, that is on his
schedule at some point. Perhaps, Mr. Mudd, you might comment as
to what's the feasibility of using that facility to accommodate both of
these new-- two new schools.
MR. MUDD: Okay. First of all, Roy Anderson, I'd ask you to
come on up and talk about plans. But let me answer your question in
particular, Commissioner. We met with the Orange Tree utility folks.
As you know, we have a contract, an agreement in place, that in-- in
2012 -- it used to be 2011, but they had a one-year extension about a
couple years back until 2012 -- that we take over that facility lock,
stock, and barrel at no cost to the county. They've had some -- some
issues in the last couple of years where the sewer plant hasn't kept up
during the peak periods, and they've had to move some of their waste
to -- to our north county plant. They've -- they've said to us a number
of times that they want to expand that particular facility so that they
can meet the demands of the Orange Tree area, and they also have
Twin Eagles that they also service but that they wouldn't be able to
get their money back from their development in that short period of
time till 2012.
We've asked them to let us take a look at their expansion plans.
We would then examine it to see what stuff we would be able to -- if
we took them over earlier, like, in 2006, because that's the soonest we
could get a plan up and running in that particular area, what parts we
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February 19, 2002
could reimburse them for so it wouldn't be money that they would --
that they would necessarily waste and at the same time provide good
service to the school and get that done so that it would be seamless as
far as the school was concerned and the neighborhood. And so far
they've been submitting their particular information, and we've been
looking at it.
Part and parcel of this is the rural fringe area. This isn't the
clean issue. And -- and we have to get our water-sewer district
boundaries extended past that 1 mile east of 951 which is our -- our
most eastward line that we have now for that water-sewer boundary.
So that's one of the things that the commission will be hearing this
spring.
You'll be hearing about the rural fringe, and they have some
suggestions, as that's concerned. And depending on your particular
direction to the staff with their plan going to the governor, if it is,
indeed, the rural fringe will have Areas B, A, C, and D, as outlined
on maps that we've seen around and you've been briefed on. If that's
the case, the staff will be coming to you in early spring asking you to
extend the water-sewer districts boundaries for Collier County out
into that area. When that's done, we can go out there and start doing
land acquisition, and we can do some other things and start building -
- start the building process. But we have been doing the preliminary
staff work in order to make a good decision not only for the county
but also for that utility and try to find a win/win solution for both, but
Roy?
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
MR. MUDD: Commissioner, I hope I answered your question.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: Yes. I mean, my concern is, I
hate to see a duplication in -- in facilities that the school system has
to build -- I guess at this point you'd have to build a package plant.
You know, maybe that's an interim step, but the -- I mean, we're
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February 19, 2002
talking about all tax dollars here. So how do we minimize those
dollars to get the most mileage out of what we have to do to service
an area?
MR. MUDD: And that's what we're trying to do with the
Orange Tree utility in the fact that basically their package plant was
put there so they could build homes not necessarily so they could run
a good utility. And so we've got to find some common ground. I
don't want them to expand on a -- on a plant that we're going to
basically abandon one year after they do it. That doesn't make a lot --
that doesn't make good sense at all, so we're trying to find the
common ground where we can -- we can service -- they can service
school board for a couple of years until -- until we're able to bring a
bigger plan on line and then take them over. Go ahead, Roy. MR. ANDERSON: Thank you. Is there a mic?
MR. MUDD: During the workshops the wall mics are on the
tables, Commissioner, so there isn't one. So, Roy, you're going to
have to either pick one up or talk to it or stretch. MR. ANDERSON: Thank you.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: State your name for the
record.
MR. ANDERSON: Roy Anderson, engineering director for the
utilities department. I'd like to go down the four schools and just tell
you the highlights in terms of sewer and water availability issues, as
we've identified them.
The first one is the middle school BB which is in the north
central part of the county. Located it in green right here. Roughly
it's right there (indicating). In that case there is water and sewer --
there are large water and sewer lines, as I've indicated on my
handout, which is in your package. We've got a 16-inch main in
Livingston Road and a 16-inch water main in Livingston Road as
well, water and sewer mains.
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February 19, 2002
So the school department's consultants would then take a look at
the various means available to make the connection to those facilities,
and then we would also work with them in terms of providing them
with flow information in the existing mains to see what the available
capacity is. So that would be a pretty -- pretty straightforward
process, and we look forward to working with the school committee
on that score.
The next item is the elementary school E, which is the one that's
outside of Orange Tree. And maybe I'll get a little bit of the rural
fringe discussion in here, too, as Jim alluded to. But the -- you may
recall this map from the master plan discussions in terms of the Board
of County Commissioners. This -- this map shows the existing
service area roughly in this area (indicating) for water and sewer, and
it shows what we had originally for the fringe area as the A, B, C, and
D areas.
But now in the latest -- in the last few months, as you're aware,
there has been some contraction of those -- some of those areas. And
if that does take place and what's finally submitted to the governor,
then we, in turn, will have to recalculate our flow projections for the
master plan, and that would be done as a next update.
But I've drawn in here, in terms of the Orange Tree elementary
school, that is this item right here (indicating) which is -- as you can
see, is outside the Orange Tree area which is part of the rural fringe.
And this is adjacent to the facility -- to -- to the Orange Tree system.
So the options that would be available to servicing that plant
from a -- just strictly a technical standpoint would be on-site service
or possibly a -- a negotiation of a connection into the Orange Tree
system, if the capacity and the -- is available.
In terms of the county extensions, we have a plan for a future --
a plant in that area. It's shown as a star right here (indicating) on
our -- on our -- this is from our wastewater master plan. And that, as
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February 19, 2002
Mr. Mudd indicated, would not be available until 2006 at the earliest
for water. We're not planning anything out there until 2011 because
the -- we've got the ability to -- we have a one -- combined system,
and we've got storage in our system, so we don't need it quite as soon.
We've also got plans for extending the mains out the -- the
mains out into this rural fringe area (indicating) along Immokalee
Road, both water and sewer. But those wouldn't be available until
2005-2006 time frame.
So there are a number of options. If we do go with our own
plant, then service could be made available to there, but it would
require extension of the service area and as well as, you know, the
other options that I mentioned.
In terms of the high school BBB, that's a very similar discussion,
but it's a little more straightforward because it's within the Orange
Tree service area. And I know -- I could see from the documents that
I've looked at and the discussions I've had with the school department
that there has been a lot of interaction between the Orange Tree
utility and the school department. So they've already actually
planned for that expansion of 65,000 gallons a day for the high
school in the -- in their own plans for the -- for their facilities.
The last item I'll describe is the -- is the elementary -- is the high
school CCC which is going to be located near 950 -- the intersection
of 951 and Davis Boulevard. I've got it shown on this -- that's shown
right here (indicating) on this -- on this drawing here. And in that
case we do have major utilities available in 951. We've got a 36-inch
water main, because it's connecting the two plants, the north and the
south plant. And we also have -- there is a 12-inch sewer main that
would be available in -- in 951 that's connecting to the south plant.
So that would be a similar situation as the first school there. The
school department's engineers would review the capacity and the
means of connection for-- for our approval.
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February 19, 2002
So -- so that's pretty much a summary of the utilities issues. I'd
be happy to answer any questions.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Any questions?
MR. YORK: Based on what you said, then, it would appear that
for elementary school E we're going to have to do a self-contained
plant there. There's just no way that -- if we want to get that open in
2003, there's just no way that we'd have any source available.
MR. ANDERSON: That would be probably the more
straightforward approach. However, there is a lot of dynamic with
the Orange Tree system. They do have some plans in the works, and
whether there would be the ability for them to do something or not is
a question to be answered. But that may be a possibility.
MR. YORK: A capacity problem?
MR. ANDERSON: Well --.
MR. YORK: Because they're going to have the new high school
too.
MR. ANDERSON: Right. Right. Well, their present flows are
about 150,000 gallons a day, and the plant capacity is about 350,000
gallons a day. But they do have some deficiencies they've got to take
care of with that plant. If they can do those and address those, there
would be that reserve of a couple hundred thousand so ...
MR. MUDD: Roy, if I can help, it's Jim Mudd again, deputy
county manager for the record. Sir, to answer your question more
specifically, Orange Tree has a geographical area they can serve
based on their agreement for a separate water-sewer district. It has
everything to do with boundaries. When you get outside those
boundaries, they're limited as far as who they can hook up.
The same thing with our water-sewer district. Just about
everybody's water-sewer district, if it's Florida waters or FGUA,
whatever, they're stuck in a geographical area. I will tell you that
elementary school E, when it's outside of the Orange Tree area,
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February 19, 2002
presents an issue that -- that has to be addressed, and it-- and they're
going to have to change their charter in order to service that particular
school, sir.
MR. YORK: Mr. Mudd, would it -- would it -- would that time
line fit with what we're aiming to do with that school as far as
opening?
MR. MUDD: It could. It could. They -- they can-- they've got
capacity in particular areas, and they've got an expansion plant. It's
always better to do it when you've got a plant on site. The key here is
getting the boundary shifted or an exception to their charter in order
to service that particular school.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Any other questions?
(No response.)
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Let's go ahead and move on to
the last item, government access television signals to Immokalee.
MS. ABBOTT: Excuse me, Commissioner Henning. I
apologize for not speaking up soon enough. It doesn't have to do
with water and sewer but because we're here, and I applaud the idea
of the two boards meeting, and I think that there's a lot of benefit to
come out of that.
The other item -- and I don't know if this is the appropriate time
to mention it or not, but when we're building schools and talking
about that and the county has an interest in parks and the availability
to students or children in those areas and adults -- and tell me if we
should talk about it later-- I would like to see more collaboration,
and I know that the staffs have been excellent at what they're doing
but perhaps need official direction from the boards to investigate how
we can utilize the schools for parks. We have them throughout the
county. And in order to get to some of those parks, I know, because
I've driven from one end of the county to the other, it takes some
time, and not everybody has that opportunity to get in the car and
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February 19, 2002
drive. But, rather, a lot of our children and families could utilize the
facilities. Downtown at Gulfview Middle School the city runs the
program after school. And I presume they pay for some of the
lighting and -- and some of the expenses, and it's utilized all the time.
We have such a great opportunity with all of these new schools
coming in right now to put our -- our -- our funding and our efforts
together to benefit a lot of communities, and it might really come
back to -- to help us, you know, multiply because it would take care
of those times when students don't have enough to do too.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Commissioner Fiala.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Thanks. I'm so glad you brought
this up. I was also waiting for the appropriate time. When I asked
for this meeting to call -- to be called -- I asked Tom Olliff to put
together this meeting between the school board and county
commission -- it was expressly for the purpose of discussing parks
and the shared use of the parks and the summer programs, as well as,
of course, school -- school-nursing, which we've already taken care
of. And so I'd love to hit on that. And I wanted to talk to Marla
Ramsey about her wish list, what she would desire to see happen
between school board and county parks and recs so that we can all
save some money, which we're all looking to do right now, so we can
serve the youth of our community and possibly offer them better
programs with the combined effort for not only for the summer but
for after school. And here we have Marla Ramsey.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: How about that? You ask and
you receive, Marla Ramsey.
MS. RAMSEY: For the record, Marla Ramsey, director of
parks and recreation for Collier County. First, I'd like to say that over
the last two years, the parks and recreation staff as well as the school
system staff have worked very closely in looking at their 20-year plan
in trying to identify areas that the school systems were utilizing for
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February 19, 2002
schools and how we can then incorporate parks around those
facilities. A couple of examples that we've just recently done are the
enhancements at Corkscrew Elementary and Middle School where
we've done the soccer field, softball field, baseball field, tennis
courts, etc., and the school built a bathroom facility that could be
accessed from the outside to allow us to be able to use those without
having to duplicate those services.
The parks and recreation upgraded those to our standards, and
we maintain those for the school system, as well as pay for all the
lights that go with those activities.
We are currently working with the Osceola Elementary School
to put in two little league fields at that location, upgrading, again,
those facilities, having the school build the bathroom with access to
the outside so we don't have to duplicate those facilities.
We also are looking in that 20-year plan for the -- I guess it's
middle school BB which is up in the Imperial area. I believe there's
10 acres that still sits next to that school that the school system is not
going to be able to use. We're asking them to hold that for us for a
little while while we try and come up with some additional funding
so that we can add some park acres up there to about 15, maybe 18
acres in total.
We've also just recently purchased the Coffman property in
joint, as you may recall, which is about 200 and some acres, a
hundred and some acres for the school system and 129 acres for the
park system, 9 acres going to the roads for the extension of
Vanderbilt, so we had a three-way joint on that particular item.
I feel that we -- operationally we work very closely together as
well. The schools use our facilities for their athletic programs, for
their swim programs, for their recreational activities, for middle
schools, and elementary kids coming to our aquatic facility.
So when I think we look at wish lists, the goal is to continue to
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February 19, 2002
look at all avenues of both properties and see how we can enhance
the -- the educational as well as the recreational element to those
children. And I include in that things like nature study activities and
be able to utilize facilities for -- that the school has as well as the
parks have to educate the children, as well as then use those
recreational elements after school, evenings and during the summers.
This summer we are looking at a fairly large summer program,
and we've had good response from the schools in allowing us to get
into them this summer. The last two years has been a little bit tough
for us, and we've had to incorporate most of our children in our park
sites. But this year I think we're in six or seven elementary, middle
school sites. And we're real close to having a total commitment from
those principals at those schools so that we can put our flyer out in
the next week or so.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: What are those schools?
MS. RAMSEY: Currently we have Poinciana Elementary,
Naples Park Elementary, Pelican Marsh Elementary, Corkscrew
Elementary, Pine Ridge Middle School, Oak Ridge Middle School
and Golden Gate Middle School and the middle school programs --
middle school camps are being utilized at the middle school
programs. And we've also been talking with the educational director
at the school for the enrichment program since the school system will
not be offering that this summer, how the parks and the school could
work together to try and still allow some of those programs to happen
at one of those sites.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: And yet you didn't name one East
Naples school at all that's participating in that summer enrichment
program or any summer programs?
MS. RAMSEY: Well, actually, in the east side we have our
park systems. It looks like it's going to be able to encompass the
number of children we have utilizing our program.
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February 19, 2002
COMMISSIONER FIALA: But you don't have covered
facilities or anything.
MS. RAMSEY: Well, East Naples park--
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Community park is that little one.
Right. You don't have anything out at Eagle Lakes at all. MS. RAMSEY: Right.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Nor at Sugden really. You have a
couple little tiny shelters. Is that going to be enough to accommodate
-- you've got a lot of working people out there who want their kids in
a summer program. Do you think you can get them all in that little
thing in East Naples Community Park?
MS. RAMSEY: Last year we offered one at Shadowlawn and at
East Naples, and we did not run Shadowlawn. Shadowlawn only had
two kids registered, so we encompassed them all into the East Naples
site. If we find that East Naples site fills, then we'll go back to the
school and ask them for another school site.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Two fast questions. Manatee, you
were talking about -- are you doing a cooperative effort with Manatee
schools, two little schools there with tennis courts or anything like
that with some of the outstand -- outlying community?
MS. RAMSEY: My staff just had a meeting with the principal
at Manatee last week, and they talked about the capability of allowing
public coming in to utilize their facilities before school and after
school, and it looks like she's very receptive to something like that.
And now we just have to work out what those arrangements would
be.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Okay. And the last question is
lighting. East Naples Middle School has a little field out there that
faces Davis Boulevard and Lakewood Boulevard. It is utilized every
night, in the dark, before dark. And I see families playing, and
they're playing soccer every night. There is no lighting. I'm
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February 19, 2002
concerned about them as far as playing in the dark, especially at this
time of year, and even in the rain they're playing. I was wondering if
there's any plans for lighting that soccer field and if you're working
together with our county commission on that.
MS. RAMSEY: I can respond a little bit on that one. We've
actually talked with the school system about what existing sites they
have that we could then enhance, lighting being one of those. And
we've talked about the East Naples Middle School a lot because of its
location. Its concern is the fact that there is no parking at that
location. So if we're going to utilize the fields for league play, etc.,
the parking becomes a big issue at that location, especially if there is
a school event going on at any time. So that -- that's just been one --
COMMISSIONER FIALA: But they all seem to find a place to
park. They're still there. Whether you figure there's parking or no
parking, they're still there playing anyway. So are you addressing
that concern?
MS. ABBOTT: I can't speak for facilities, but that's the
direction that I would like to see us go and that perhaps we should
have more discussion pertaining to that because you and I have
spoken before, and that's -- that's a combined.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: And I know you're going to try and
help us. Thank you.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Mr. Simms.
MR. SIMMS: Again, for the record, Jim Simms. Thank you,
sir, commissioners, board members. The parking issue is one that
we're addressing. We're negotiating with the adjacent church in an
attempt to -- to acquire some property specifically for parking. And
we think we're going to be successful there. Once that's done, then
that provides, I think, an opportunity to -- to further explore the idea
of putting lights on those facilities out there. We agree. That needs
to happen, and I think, you know, I can't -- won't commit the board at
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February 19, 2002
this point, but we'll bring them a recommendation at some point to
take care of that and get some lighting out there. And Marla and our
staff will work jointly to develop that.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Great discussion. And, Linda,
I want to thank you for bringing up that topic.
MS. ABBOTT: Well, thank you. Commissioner Fiala and I
discussed this at length for a long time. So we appreciate the
opportunity. Thank you for letting us discuss it.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Thank you. There is one item
that I skipped over that we need to go to. That's new schools and
county road planning and construction. Mr. Feder.
MR. FEDER: Commissioner, Chairman Goodnight, board
members, it's a pleasure to be here. For the record, Norman Feder,
transportation administrator. I'll be fairly brief. I think the school
board staff has had quite a few of the issues. I'll just walk you
through very quickly the first school in Imperial, the east-west, that
facility, while we have an extremely aggressive work program
underway, we do not have any construction planned on the east-west
segment of Livingston, and we have the right-of-way out to Business
41 requiring it from there to U.S. 41, but we do not have any
construction within the five-year schedule for development of that
east-west Livingston roadway, of course, that alignment, as I said,
with right-of-way but no roadway just today.
School board, if they do decide to build off there, would have to
establish some access over to Livingston Road which exists as two
lanes and later this year will be let for expansion, six lanes up to the
east-west and four lanes north of there.
Elementary school E slated to August 3rd opening -- that's out in
Everglades, DeSoto -- that's already been mentioned as being outside
of the urban service boundary. We've had some discussion with your
folks about sidewalks within the 2-mile area. Again, that's a feature
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February 19, 2002
that would probably be not part of our comp. plan, and I don't know
how terribly effective you're in the nature of development in that area
anyway, but it's outside of the resources that we have available.
The high school BBB basically slated at Oil Well Boulevard, we
do have a related road project on Immokalee Road in this case that
should be of assist there. Later this fiscal year we'll be letting the
section between Wilson and 43rd on Immokalee Road later be
followed up with 951 to Wilson to coincide with the project. We
have 1-75, 951 just completed and then the six laning from 1-75 over
to 41 also to be let next fiscal year.
High school CCC, this one only really will have access, as was
mentioned, off of access road No. 2. That's Magnolia Pine PUD
which has not come forward. As we discussed with your staff, they
need to work through with that developer, see if they can work some
cost sharing. That developer is probably going to want to wait
because in that PUD provision, while they have to build that roadway
to service the school, since the school is coming in first or if the
government comes in first, they may not have to.
So I think that's an issue of discussion with that developer along
with the school. It's the only real access point. We are using other
funds that we have to establish a pedestrian access across that Golden
Gate canal to open that area up to pedestrian movement that can't be
vehicular, and then you've got 1-75 and some restrictions beyond that
one access point off 951.
As your staff noted, we've been working well together trying to
coordinate the plans. They've got a very, very aggressive program
that is out in front in some areas of the roadway improvements. We
hope, as we get caught up and get out there, that we don't have that
always to be the case.
I'll also tell you that we're working with them on access points,
trying to encourage access off of the collector road as opposed to the
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February 19, 2002
arterial, much like we're trying to do with development to allow those
movements to have the issues addressed on site as opposed to out on
the system. Your staff is doing a good job in communicating with us.
I appreciate the time.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: I have a question, Mr. Chairman.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Yes.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: It's really health, safety, and
welfare. How can you build a school if you don't have the road
accesses, sidewalks, everything else, paid for in the plan? It does not
make sense to me.
MR. FEDER: Commissioner, that's something we're working
obviously with the school board. In some cases they're going to have
to look at these sites. Another issue, as was mentioned previously on
your agenda, is their impact fee schedule, trying to look at how
maybe that can be adjusted to provide for some -- what I will call the
off-site. Right now they are covering and able to even accelerate
their program relative to on-site facilities and improvements. It's the
off-site issues that -- that we need to figure out how to address. I
think that staff, the school board has taken these issues into account
and is working towards addressing them.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: Well, I just think we have --
MR. FEDER: I'll defer to that one that's my impression.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: I have to look at -- I mean, in my
opinion, we have to look at is part of impact fees, regardless of who
collects them, to be applied in these situations so that takes place.
And to me it doesn't make any difference whose pot it comes out of
as long as it happens. That's simply stated and I know difficult to
achieve, and I'm certainly not faulting any organization. But we don't
have that coordination. We seem to get these glitches that come back
and haunt us, and then we're scrambling around trying to reallocate
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February 19, 2002
some funds somewhere, and in good strategic planning I'd like to see
this addressed before it -- before it happens.
MR. FEDER: Commissioner, I think we all agree, the school
board staff, as well as your staff.
First of all, the school board's having paid transportation impact
fees in the past, although with the new building code, that will be
coming forward. But I think the key issue here is as they accelerate
the program, they are a little bit out in front of us. As we get caught
up, as we continue that planning, we'll try to get that in sync with
each other.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: Thank you, sir.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Well, no other questions or
comments, let's go to the final item, the government access television
signal to Immokalee. And we have Jo-Anne Leamer here to bring
that item forward.
MS. VARCOE-LEAMER: Good morning. My name is Jo-
Anne Varcoe-Leamer. I'm with the county. I'm the administrator for
the admin services division.
The purpose of this agenda item is to explore the possibility of
jointly pursuing a wireless telecommunication link to Immokalee for
the purpose of broadcasting live the county's government access
television programming and the school board's education access
television programming. I'm going to ask Joe Landon to discuss
what is being currently done in Immokalee regarding the education
access television programming. And then Jean Merritt with the
county will discuss the county's presence in Immokalee currently.
Then we'll go over some of the options that have been explored by
the county and, finally, wrap up by discussing the opportunity for the
joint venture. And with that I'm going to ask Joe to tell us what's
happening currently in Immokalee.
MR. LANDON: For the record, Joe Landon, school board
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February 19, 2002
members, Dr. White, Commissioners, Mr. Olliff.
I'd like to take just a couple of minutes to tell you about what we
are doing currently with our Immokalee cable TV channel. We run a
videotape-based or replay channel. It operates 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week. And I'd like to give you, too, a little bit of how this all came
about. I was in a meeting a year ago with several county staff with
Time-Warner Cable Management. And I asked the what-if question:
What if we could provide a tape-based channel? Would Time-
Warner give us that channel in Immokalee? The answer was yes
from Time-Warner.
I went back to my office and asked instructional television
specialist Linda Haslinger (phonetic) in my office that what-if
question. She said why not. And she started planning. We found
some equipment within our existing inventory, and we have that
channel on the air. We put it on the air in August of last year. And
you have an Immokalee channel program schedule in front of you.
Our channel basically is an interim solution. We still need live
cable access for government and education in Immokalee. Our
channel has some limitations. Equipment is one. We have four tape
decks, four VCRs, and we do run school board meetings and
workshops and other educational programming. We run county
government meetings, for example, but we're limited to six hours of
coverage because we have four tape decks, and that six hours of
coverage would take one tape deck. We need the other decks for
school board meetings, workshops, and other programming.
So, again, this is an interim solution. This channel is working
quite well for us for what it provides. But, again, we need the live
access. And to talk more about that, my counterpart at the county,
Jean Merritt.
MS. MERRITT: Thank, you, Joe. Thank you. I'm pleased to
be here. Joe's pretty much outlined exactly what we're doing. We do
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February 19, 2002
appreciate very much the cooperation that we've -- we've had from
the school and particularly from Joe, my counterpart over there.
We deliver our -- our tape Wednesday after our board meeting,
and we are very limited. As Joe suggested, there are only four
machines, and they've graciously agreed that we could use one of
these. It is a six-hour machine. And so we can only show six hours
of the commission meeting. And as you well know, that certainly
does not cover, generally, all of the meetings.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: Maybe that's a message to us.
MS. MERRITT: But, at any rate, we do appreciate that. I think
Joe probably explained that those are only swapped out once a week.
He has no staff there, nor do we. So it is a very limited way to reach
the citizens of Immokalee. It's better than nothing, but it certainly is
not a satisfactory way. And -- and we would -- we are very interested
in trying to get our live signal to Immokalee, as I know you are.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Thank you. Any questions?
Comments?
MS. VARCOE-LEAMER: I have a few more comments for the
board.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Okay.
MS. VARCOE-LEAMER: Like the school board, if we can get
our signal to Immokalee, Time-Warner has indicated they will
provide a government access television channel for us.
What we're currently pursuing is what you see up on the
diagram. Individually the school board and the county are -- are
looking at ways to get to -- to Immokalee. We've looked at several
options. Those have included leasing capacity from Sprint, building
a fiberoptic or co-axle cable, video streaming, and then microwave or
a wireless solution. Those are explained in more detail in your
package, and if you'd like me to go over those, I will, but I'll continue
for now.
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February 19, 2002
So the current model, you see a lot of duplication. There will be
duplication in engineering costs, duplication in transmission
equipment, just to name a few.
The second board, which Mike is going to show, depicts a
collaborative effort. We believe, by partnering on this project, we
can save money and get a better end product.
What -- what we're proposing is that we look at a project where
the school board would get their sing -- signal to Collier County, and
then utilizing microwave technology, we would transmit both signals
together to an intermediate site and then finally to the Time-Warner
headed in Immokalee. That technology exists to get both signals to
Immokalee, video and possibly even data. As we explore this further
together, we'll refine those details. But the technology exists to do it
as a partnership in a collaborative effort.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Thank you.
You know, looking-- we're going to have the rural fringe
coming forward and then after that rural land. So I really don't know
what's going to take place as far as, you know, is -- in that area. Are
we going to connect Immokalee with future rural -- rural villages or
something like that? And, you know, would that be an incentive for
the private cable company to link up those to areas? So I would hope
that we can proceed cautiously, keep that in mind, and let the private
sector pay for it.
MR. LANDON: I might add -- I've been in several meetings
with Time-Warner, and I don't want to speak for them, but what I
think Jean and -- and I can tell you is that Time-Warner doesn't --
they don't have plans to expand that live coverage to Immokalee.
They're looking at a cost of about a half million dollars and just don't
feel that that would be feasible for them to expand fiber, which is
what they would need to do, to Immokalee.
MS. MERRITT: The -- the point that Joe makes is -- is exactly
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February 19, 2002
how Time-Warner is looking at this. The system in Immokalee is a
stand-alone system. It's a very small system. It -- it only has -- it
offers very few channels, and in the FCC regulations, it states that a
cable company doesn't have to upgrade if it's not economically
feasible. And most cable companies use that phrase to refuse to
upgrade their systems. I don't think they're going to upgrade their
system there. And like Joe says, it's very expensive.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: We don't even know what the
future is going to hold as far as development out there, so it will be
interesting to see how that transpires.
Any other comments or questions on this topic?
MR. YORK: Just a comment. If-- if we ran the fiberoptic
cable, couldn't the cable company feed -- piggyback on that and
develop some revenue for us?
MR. LANDON: That has been discussed. In fact, the
discussion centered around either county or in partnership with the
school district building the cable system to Immokalee and then
Time-Warner would lease space on that system from who ever built
the system.
MR. YORK: It would appear to me in just looking at the
executive summary that the fiberoptic cable is the way to go because
you've got these reoccurring costs every year if you use the
microwave technology. Our lease is with Sprint.
MS. VARCOE-LEAMER: Actually, the reoccurring cost with
microwave are very low. You're only looking at maintenance costs
which are slim. I believe the -- the other option that you're looking at
is leasing space on Sprint system, and that would be cost prohibitive
and wouldn't -- wouldn't make sense from a cost benefit analysis
point of view.
We agree that the fiber is the best alternative long term. It is
more of a long-term solution to -- to engineer and implement. It is
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February 19, 2002
going to take some time. And what we would recommend is that we
look at a microwave wireless solution as an interim solution and then
pursue grant opportunities jointly. USDA, for example, provides
money for telecommunication to build infrastructure for rural
communities. That does require a partnership between school --
schools, medical facilities, and counties. So we could pursue that in
the long term. But in the meantime, there appears to be a need to
provide the citizens of Immokalee with education access television
and the county's government access.
MR. YORK: My only concern with the fiberoptic is that as we
advance in wireless technology, how quickly will that become
obsolete?
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Commissioner Coyle.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: A question concerning the -- the
costs here. Are those total costs, or is -- or are we talking about
sharing this between the county and the school district?
MS. VARCOE-LEAMER: The executive summary that was
attached to your package is total cost. That would represent the
county doing the project alone. If we up -- if we did a collaborative
effort, those costs would creep up slightly to get increased band
width, but we would still look at -- at saving money.
Initial estimates, we were looking at wireless, 120,000 versus
the 75,000 in the executive summary which could then be split
between the county and the school board.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: How much would the total costs
be?
MS. VARCOE-LEAMER: Roughly 120,000. Again, this is
preliminary numbers just based on some discussions with different
providers. We would need to firm those up and bring it back to both
boards.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Is that something that the
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February 19, 2002
school board members are interested in advancing and looking at at a
later date?
MS. GOODNIGHT: We would be interested in knowing what
the -- what the figures were and taking it before our board to share
the costs.
(Cell phone rang.)
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Okay.
COMMISSIONER FIALA: Would there be any grants
available or-- to help us with that end, with the microwave?
MS. VARCOE-LEAMER: Possibly. The USDA grants that
I've looked at are for telecommunication. They don't spell out the
technology that's used. They are very large grants, so they're looking
for 500,000, million-dollar projects versus the wireless which is, you
know, much less. But, yes, we could pursue that.
MR. LANDON: The school district, our people have said there
are some enterprise grants. I believe the community foundation of
Collier County is aware of what those grants would be. And, you
know, we don't know if those would apply, but they could be
explored.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: Well, I would hope we would
look at fiberoptics. If the FDA -- if the agriculture department loves
to spend money at a half million or more, we could certainly
accommodate that. And why not go right to a first-class operation if
we can get a grant to do that?
MR. LANDON: The other option with fiber, too, I believe --
and we have our executive director of management information
services here, Bill Merriam (phonetic). And the other option is with
fiber we could possibly, my understanding is, accommodate
computer needs, for example, communication with our facilities in
Immokalee using fiber as opposed to leased lines and so forth.
MS. GOODNIGHT: And -- and I'm also the secretary to the
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February 19, 2002
Immokalee Community Development Corporation, which is part of
that empowerment zone.. And they're also looking at grants, because
that's one of the problems that we're having trying to get new
businesses into Immokalee is the fact that we don't have the
capability with the computer. So this is something that -- that they're
working on as a whole to try to increase the capability. So I think
that there is a number of individuals and companies that are working
on this. And so maybe working with the commission, we would be
able to achieve that.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: It seems like there's enough
interest in pursuing it a little bit further of two options: Either the
microwave or the fiberoptic. And I think that's a great suggestion,
Commissioner Carter, is -- is, if we can get the federal government to
step up, pay for the whole thing, you know, let's take a look at that.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: I mean, because it's my
understanding, when you start talking something under a million
dollars to them, gee, they just -- they look at you, is that all you want.
MS. VARCOE-LEAMER: Exactly.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: And we're saying, yes, that's all
we want. All we want is a half a million dollars. And that's -- and if
that's their mindset, I'd sure like to encourage them to write the
check.
COMMISSIONER COYLE: Well, don't -- don't forget that
those grants come from taxpayer dollars, okay.
COMMISSIONER CARTER: That's true. But if we don't get
them, somebody else will.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Right. That's--
If there is no other business, I know that Commissioner Coyle
made a great suggestion. We had some backup material presented to
us mainly about school nurse program. If we can get that, each of the
school board members and the county commissioners, I think that
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February 19, 2002
will be helpful for us to study that and -- so that we're well educated
on that -- on that issue. So if you will provide that for us. Anything else -- else, Mr. Olliff?
MR. OLLIFF: Mr. Chairman, we don't have any other
registered speakers, but generally at this time we look to the audience
to see if there's anyone else who's -- who's interested in addressing, in
this case, both boards.
Seeing none, Mr. Chairman, I have nothing else.
VICE CHAIRMAN HENNING: Okay. Then nobody else has
any other input, I call the -- I deem this meeting adjourned.
There being no further business for the good of the County, the
meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11:50 a.m.
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX
OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF
SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS
CONTROL
J~AIRMAN
T-/?._-e)?--
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February 19, 2002
These minutes approved by the Board on
presented ~ or as corrected
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN COURT
REPORTING, INC., BY BARBARA DONOVAN, COURT
REPORTER
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