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CLB Minutes 12/19/2001 RDecember 19, 2001 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida, December 19, 2001 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9 a.m. In REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: GARY HAYES LES DICKSON CAROL PAHL SARA BETH WHITE WALTER CRAWFORD, IV MICHAEL BARIL RICHARD JOSLIN KEN LLOYD ABSENT: KENNETH DUNNE ALSO PRESENT: PATRICK NEALE, Attorney for the Board BOB NONNENMACHER, Chief License Compliance Officer ROBERT ZACHARY, Assistant County Attorney THOMAS BARTOE, License Compliance Officer MICHAEL OSSORIO, License Compliance Officer Page 1 December 19, 2001 member here, first MR. BARIL: CHAIRMAN to the agenda? CHAIRMAN HAYES: We'll call this meeting to order, Collier County Contractors' Licensing Board, December the 19th at 9 a.m. Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings pertaining thereto and, therefore, may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made, which record includes that testimony and evidence upon which an appeal is to be based. I'd like to start roll call to my right. MR. BARIL: Here. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name. MR. BARIL: Michael Baril, Baril Construction. MR. LLOYD: Ken Lloyd. MR. CRAWFORD: Walter Crawford. MR. DICKSON: Les Dickson. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Gary Hayes. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MS. PAHL: Carol Pahl. MS. WHITE: Sara Beth White. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'd like to welcome our new board time out. Thank you. HAYES: Do we have any additions or deletions MR. BARTOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, board members. For the record, I'm Thomas Bartoe, Collier County licensing compliance officer. I have a number of things. I don't know whether we are going to have additions, deletions, changes, or what, but bear with me. We have two new board members, Mr. Baril here, and a Kenneth Dunne. D-u-n-n-e, and Mr. Dunne had prior commitments for today's date when I notified him of this meeting. Page 2 December 19, 2001 Also, I'd like to introduce to everybody our newest office staff. Clara Urtiaga is sitting right here in the front row. Also on your agenda the last item for the next meeting date, it will not be January 16th. Office -- or staff has nothing pressing. This room is needed by the -- by the Board of County Commissioners that date, and so we figured we would scratch January and go with the February 20th date. I have one addition under new business. It -- the name is Donald Wojciechowski. I think I can spell it correct -- correctly. If not, he's here. He can correct me. W-o-j-c-i-e-c-h-o-w-s-k-i. You have no packet for him. I guess he has been dealing with office staff for a few months, and we should have had a packet. The main concern here, I think, will be to review credit report, which I telephoned office staff, and they should have some paperwork to us in a short period of time. I have nothing further in the way of additions or deletions. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other -- MR. BARTOE: Excuse me. There is one thing. Mr. Neale, you passed out a memorandum. Do you want to put that under discussion? MR. NEALE: I would think that would be a good idea, yeah. MR. BARTOE: Did the board get the memorandum? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes. MR. DICKSON: One question. MR. LLOYD: Do you have a question? MR. DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe, isn't that case under old business deleted? MR. BARTOE: Mr. Nonnenmacher just advised me, yes, to delete the case under old business. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other additions or deletions to the agenda? Page 3 December 19, 2001 (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: None. I need a motion to approve the agenda. MR. DICKSON: So moved, Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. All in favor. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. I have the minutes of October the 17th. Each one of the members should have a copy of those. MS. PAHL: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: motion for approval. MR. DICKSON: Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You've got a motion for Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, motion. MS. PAHL: I'll second it, Pahl. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. All in favor? (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. new business, Ryan D. Barton, request to qualify second entity. Barton, are you present? MR. BARTON: (Indicating.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Would you come up to the podium, please. I'm going to have to ask you to get sworn in, so if you'll talk to the court reporter ... If we have reviewed them, then I need a Getting down to business, under Mr. Page 4 December 19, 2001 (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning, sir. MR. BARTON: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What's your reason for being here today? MR. BARTON: I'm going to qualify my brother-in-law on an importing and installation door business. I'm a little nervous. Sorry about that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You'll have to speak up. MR. BARTON: I'm a little bit nervous. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. So your new company is Custom Door & Millwork, Inc.? MR. BARTON: Correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What is your current qualification? MR. BARTON: Carpentry, interior finish and carpentry. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What's the name of the company? MR. BARTON: Space, S-p-a-c-e. It's an old -- it's an old computer business. We just kept the same name, but we're incorporating that also, and that's Custom Gulf Builders. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And do you have a framing carpenter's license? MR. BARTON: Correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Are you going to be running this business or -- MR. BARTON: Yes. I'll be involved in day-to-day. We'll both be in the same building in Railhead Park. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Don't we have the new form for the second entity in place yet? Didn't we approve a -- a new form last -- MS. PAHL: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- last month? MS. PAHL: Two months ago. Page 5 December 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Two months ago. MR. ZACHARY: I transmitted it to them, and they'll -- about now -- it's going to be started to be used by now. MR. DICKSON: He got No. 9 right. Mr. Chairman, everything is in order. The credit report is good. I so -- I see no need -- reason not to approve. So, Dickson, I make a motion that we approve the request. MR. CRAWFORD: Second, Crawford. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second on the floor. Any other discussion on the board? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm calling for the vote. All in favor? (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well, Mr. Barton, not a problem with it. You can qualify your second entity. Your paperwork is all down here today, so you're not going to be able to go back to the county and -- and finish this deal up today. It will have to be tomorrow. MR. BARTON: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay? MR. BARTON: Thank you, guys. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you. Michael S. Canady, request to reinstate swimming pool maintenance and repair license without retaking the exam. Mr. Canady, are you here? MR. CANADY: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning, sir. MR. CANADY: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to ask you to be sworn in as Page 6 December 19, 2001 well. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being here this morning? MR. CANADY: I'm -- basically what happened, I'm a sole proprietor. I have my business in my home, been doing business since the early '80s. And my occupational license I didn't renew three years ago. We built a new home in Lely Resort, and when we moved, I didn't get the new information. So my occupational license hasn't been renewed for three years, and that's basically the reason here. My state license has been kept up current. It was mailed to the new address, so that's basically the reason I'm here. I don't want to have to take the state exam again. Like I said, I did keep my state license current. It was a mistake on my own. It won't happen again. MS. WHITE: Excuse me. You've been doing business in Collier County for three years without a license? Is that what you said? MR. CANADY: Without an occupational license. I wasn't aware of it not being reinstated. What happened, like I said, three years ago I built a new home. And everything was mailed to my home because my office is in my home. And one of my new commercial accounts asked for an occupational license. It's the first time I've ever even been asked for it, to be honest with you. They usually ask for the state license. And that's when I came to find out what had happened. I wasn't aware of it. It slipped through my wife -- my wife does my paperwork, and it's just my -- it's our fault. I just -- it's been three years, correct. I mean, I've been insured and had my state license the whole time. But, yeah, when we built the new home -- they only mail, I guess, one out, and they don't mail another one unless you renew it. And, of Page 7 December 19, 2001 course, it was lost in the mail. MS. WHITE: So you found out about this when you were cited on a job; is that correct? MR. CANADY: No, ma'am. A new account, a new commercial account, wanted a copy of my occupational license -- MS. WHITE: Oh, I see. MR. CANADY: -- when I started the job. And that's when I found out -- I started talking to Maggie -- I believe this was probably six months ago when I started all this. MR. CRAWFORD: When did you take the original exam? MR. CANADY: Boy, maybe like '85. MR. CRAWFORD: Do you know what you scored at that time? MR. CANADY: No. It seems like -- I have no idea. I passed it; that's all I know. MR. JOSLIN: Staff has no record of this test being taken? MR. BARTOE: I'm sorry? MR. JOSLIN: Staff has no record of this test being taken? MR. BARTOE: They probably do. I'm looking. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. MR. CANADY: They asked for copies of my state license and what not, so in order to get the state license, of course, you had to pass an exam. MR. JOSLIN: Right. We just don't have it in our packet. MR. CANADY: Okay. She never asked me for that paperwork, or I would have involved (sic) it in my packet. She never -- never asked me; that's why. MR. BARTOE: MR. CANADY: license is what it is. CHAIRMAN HAYES: registered license? The state license is just a registered license. It's an R-3 residential pool contractor Class E We do have a copy of the state- Page 8 December 19, 2001 MR. CANADY: Yes, sir, you should. That was one of the paperworks that Maggie had asked for, so I turned that in. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And it is current? MR. CANADY: Oh, yes, sir, that never went out of date. Like I said, that somehow -- this occupational license didn't get to my new address, and I overlooked it. MS. WHITE: What is your objection to taking the exam? MR. CANADY: I mean, I just -- I've got two kids and I'm a sole proprietor. I do all the work myself. I work from 6:30 until 5 in the afternoon, and if I could not do it -- I wouldn't not want to do it. I've passed it once. I mean, that would be the only objection. It would be a waste of a day or a couple days and a lot of work missed, and that would be my objection, if I could somehow get this straightened out without it, it won't happen again, and I would rather resolve it this way if I could. CHAIRMAN HAYES: When did you get your license originally? MR. CANADY: I believe in, like, '85. I'm not sure of the exact date, but I believe in '85. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe, does staff have any problems? MR. BARTOE: Staffhas no problems, never had any complaints, to my knowledge. MR. CANADY: No. I do all the work myself, so I -- there's no complaints ever been filed on my business at all. MR. BARTOE: And I'm assuming he originally took a test. He might be able to advise you more than I. I see written on here by office staff-- this says second folder; original folder is in storage. MR. CANADY: Yeah. What happened is, it had been three years since the occupational license was renewed, so Maggie had to go -- she couldn't find the folder because, of course, it had been three years back since -- of the original occupational license. Page 9 December 19, 2001 MR. DICKSON: But even though the state is registered, he couldn't have gotten a state-registered license without having passed a test and gone through Collier County. MR. BARTOE: Correct. The first time around he got our license and then registered. MR. DICKSON: So it's superfluous to see the test. He had to take one. MR. BARTOE: Right. MR. DICKSON: So, Dickson, I move that it be approved. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, second. MR. CANADY: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Not done yet. MR. CANADY: I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any other discussion on the board? MS. WHITE: Well, I'm concerned about the precedent here because then it's not important that you make sure that you keep your license up. MR. CANADY: I understand that it's very important. I'm just -- I'm sorry. MS. WHITE: And -~ and we -- we have -- we don't have a copy -- I mean, now what we're saying is if you have the state license, you don't need to take the county exam. Is that what we're saying today? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, basically by virtue of the fact that it is registered with the state, it says that he had -- did have it valid -- it was a valid license at one time. MR. BARTOE: He -- he had originally taken the test, passed it, received our license and occupational license, and registered with the state. And the only thing he kept up was his registration with the state. MR. NEALE: Just, you know, to clarify, as Mr. Bartoe says, the Page 10 December 19, 2001 process on this license would have been that he had originally gotten his Collier County license in this trade. Then he had registered that license with the State of Florida, so he originally went through the Collier County process. And, according to the paperwork he's got here, his registered state license is valid until 2003. So I -- I wouldn't be terribly concerned about setting a precedent in this instance because he does have a license. He's gone through all the process. He has allowed it to lapse. He understands that that's a flaw. He's paying the reapplication fee and is coming in to reapply for the license. So he -- he is going through all the hoops with the exception of taking the test, a test which he had already passed and which has been retained as valid through the state up through 2003. So -- MS. WHITE: Mr. Neale, had he been cited during this three- year period of working? MR. NEALE: Huh? MS. WHITE: No. Had he been cited during this three-year period, would he have been issued a citation and a fine? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Have you ever gotten a ticket for operating without your license? MR. CANADY: No, sir. And my occupational license was kept up from '85 just until three years ago when my new home was built, so it wasn't like I never had an occupational license. MR. NEALE: He could have been cited for it, but he would have had an opportunity to cure also under the citation statute also. Because this -- an instance like this, in all probability, under Florida Statutes and the Collier County code would have been considered a minor violation as opposed to a major violation. MR. DICKSON: Can I make a point? We call this an occupational license. MR. NEALE: It's not. MR. DICKSON: It is not a license. It should be called an Page 11 December 19, 2001 occupational tax. It's income for the county. It's a fee. It has -- we have people come up here all the time with occupational licenses, and they think it's a license, and it's not. So all he's failed to do is pay his tax for three years to Collier County. CHAIRMAN HAYES: No. MR. NONNENMACHER: No. I disagree, Mr. Dickson. What happened was, you cannot get the competency card without the occupational license. So one goes with the other. If he failed to renew his occupational license, he couldn't come in and pick up his competency card. The only thing he did do was keep up his state registration. MR. DICKSON: But at the same time we have lots of people that come before this board with an occupational license thinking that that's a license. MR. NONNENMACHER: Yeah. It's not. MR. DICKSON: It may be part of the process, but it's not a license. MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, I -- I believe he means that his competency card has been expired for three years. MR. DICKSON: That I'll go with. MR. NEALE: He is referring to occupational license, but it's really competency card. And, you know, for the public's benefit, probably they need to know, as Mr. Dickson says, an occupational license is not a license to practice a trade. You have to have a separate license. And, unfortunately, people often get deceived with that so ... CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: in favor. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other discussion on the motion? I'm calling the vote on the motion. All Aye. Page 12 December 19, 2001 MR. DICKSON: Aye. MS. PAHL: Aye. MR. CRAWFORD: Aye. MR. BARIL: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. LLOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed? MS. WHITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have one opposed. Very well, the motion carries, Mr. Canady. We're -- we're going to let it go just like it was originally. Again, your paperwork is here today, and you won't be able to finish up your business down at the county today. So it will be tomorrow before you can come back -- come back there, see Mr. Bartoe to finish it up. MR. CANADY: Great. Thank you very much. You guys have a good holiday. CHAIRMAN HAYES: All right. James L. DeMarco, review credit report. Are you here, Mr. DeMarco? MR. DEMARCO: (Indicating) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, unless I just couldn't see it, I couldn't find that credit report in my packet. MS. PAHL: I think it's from last month or two months ago. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Oh, it was? Well, I didn't -- does anybody on the board -- MR. BARTOE: The reason you didn't find it is you had it the meeting before. This was in October, no-show. I have about three extra copies. MR. NEALE: I have a copy here also. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, what's the reason that we're reviewing this credit report? I mean, did he apply for a license or Page 13 December 19, 2001 apply for a renewal or apply for a second entity? Do you know? MR. BARTOE: Applying for a license, I understand. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. DeMarco, I'm going to ask you to get sworn in so we can talk. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning, sir. MR. DEMARCO: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Apparently you qualified to renew -- or you applied to renew your license? MR. DEMARCO: No. I was applying for a new license. I qualified in Lee County and wanted to also be licensed in Collier. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. DICKSON: How long have you been in business in Lee County? MR. DEMARCO: February of this year. MR. BARIL: Mr. DeMarco, I see on your credit report a court suit for Cuyahoga, and I see you list Cuyahoga as a reference. Have you eliminated that from this? MR. DEMARCO: Cuyahoga, I'm not -- I'm not following you. MR. BARIL: You have a dismissal of court suit in May of'99, and you've done some work for Cuyahoga. Are those two related? Was the court suit related to your construction projects? MR. DEMARCO: I don't -- it's Cuyahoga County Court is what the lawsuit was filed in. I don't know without having it in front of me. I'm not sure what entity had filed on me. I worked for my father, okay, and I had a minor amount of stock in the company. And at the -- I don't know which suit that -- that was. Was that Mack Industries? Does it say on there? MR. BARIL: No. MR. DEMARCO: Okay. It was probably Mack Industries, and there was a dispute on some precast, and it was my project. And Page 14 December 19, 2001 because I had a small amount of-- of stock, they named me in the lawsuit. The lawsuit was satisfied because it was just a -- a dispute over -- over the -- the quality of the -- of the product which withheld payment, but it was satisfied. MR. BARIL: So it was related to the construction work that you had done? MR. DEMARCO: Yes. MR. DICKSON: Who owns the stock of J. Alex DeMarco, Incorporated? MR. DEMARCO: My son. MR. DICKSON: You own no stock? MR. DEMARCO: No. MR. DICKSON: What is your position with J. Alex DeMarco, Incorporated? MR. DEMARCO: I really don't -- I consult with him. I mean, I primarily came down here to more or less semiretire. I have two sons who started the company in February. They -- they operate it on a day-to-day basis. I -- I help them with -- as needed. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Neale, why are we looking at his credit report? MR. NEALE: Because he is the qual -- he is proposing to be the qualifier. MR. DICKSON: He owns no stock. He has no active role in the company. MR. NEALE: Well, if he has -- according to the rules, as this board is well aware and for the benefit of the new members, in order for someone to be a qualifier, they must have an active role in it -- in the operation of the company. MR. DICKSON: Exactly. And there's no finance -- financial responsibility officer form. So I -- I personally think we're looking at the wrong credit report, is my opinion. Page 15 December 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. DeMarco, as he's trying to get -- get across here, for you not to have any affiliation with the business is the same as selling your business, selling your license, or usage on the open market to anybody that pays you to use it. You're not affiliated with the business. You don't have any controls. You don't have any responsibilities. You know, that's against the law. MR. DEMARCO: Well, let me -- let me rephrase this. Okay. They came down here to start -- to start the company and started the company. I -- I do not work for them on a 40-hour- or 50-hour-a- week basis. I am involved with them with regards as far as consulting, and -- and sometimes I -- I even worked in the field with them from time to time. It's -- it's -- it's not a situation where I'm -- I'm there 40 hours a week, five days, you know, five days a week. But I -- I am affiliated with them, and they -- they do pay me from time to time. CHAIRMAN HAYES: MR. DEMARCO: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Is the business incorporated? At the very least, Mr. DeMarco, you're going to have to be an officer in the corporation. MR. NEALE: Well, if I may, just for the board, particularly the newer members' edification, let me read what the Collier County ordinance says as far as being active in the business. It's Section 22- 182-C-12-L. And it says, "Proof that the qualifying agent is legally qualified to act for the business organization in all manners with its contracting business and that said qualifying agent has the authority to supervise construction undertaken by such business organization. Proof that a qualifying agent is legally qualified to act for the business includes, but is not limited to, authority to sign checks for the business organization, training and supervision of employees, hiring and firing of employees, or other actions indicating active involvement in the business organization." Page 16 December 19, 2001 MR. DEMARCO: Outside of signing checks, I -- I would say I have those requirements or an antici -- you know, participate in those ways. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, you do have an affidavit swearing that you're doing that. So I guess as long as you're aware of the fact that you are the responsible party and you've sworn to an affidavit attesting to that, there's not much more we can do except to tell you that if you're not in control and things happen, it's your license. MR. DEMARCO: I understand. I've been responsible for these two young men for 28 years, so it's nothing new. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Neale, just so I understand, there's no requirements that he be an officer of the company. MR. NEALE: There is no requirement that a person be an officer of the corporation or a director. They just have to be legally qualified to act in all manners as to the construction activities of the business. Just using an example that we've used before here, if-- if a qualifier is a qualifier for someone like U.S. Homes or Centex or WCI, there's no requirement that that person be an officer of a large company like that, but they have to have the authority and responsibility for construction and contracting activities. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I agree with you with this exception, though. If I own a corporation and I hired him and I didn't make him an officer, then I would be the one to hand this board an affidavit swearing that he is qualified to act on behalf of the business. That is not what the affidavit says that I have in front of me. It's his affidavit saying that he says that he's responsible. There is nothing in here from the officers of the corporation attesting to that. MR. NEALE: And -- and as -- MR. CRAWFORD: Yeah. Unfortunately the affidavit has asked for the signature of the applicant. Page 17 December 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Exactly. MR. NEALE: If you remember in the -- in the other packet that the board just approved, it does have an affidavit from the business also stating that the business appoints him as being qualified -- as being responsible for all contracting activities. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's what I'm looking for. MR. NEALE: And that affidavit -- affidavit probably should be in this packet too. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I see two affidavits in here. One is Mr. DeMarco saying that he's responsible, and one is saying Mr. DeMarco says that he will take care of worker's compensation. But I don't see anything says -- the officers of the corporation saying that he's allowed to do anything for the corporation. MR. NEALE: I would suggest to the board that -- particularly because that is a question in this instance, that Mr. DeMarco obtain such affidavit, present it to the board before the board acts on this. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah. Mr. DeMarco, it's somewhat of a technicality, but it is a legal technicality that needs to be part of your application. MR. DEMARCO: It's a part that was omitted that I didn't have or something? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, it's an affidavit from an officer or a legal representative of the company attesting that you do have the rights to operate the business on a daily basis, just like your other affidavit that says the undersigned hereby certifies that he is legally qualified to act on behalf of the business organization sought to be licensed in this matter. MR. DEMARCO: Okay. It's more or less like a corporate resolution is what it is. MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. That's exactly what it is. CHAIRMAN HAYES: A corporate resolution. Or if you were Page 18 December 19, 2001 an officer, this wouldn't be required. But since you're not an officer, then somebody that is an officer has to attest that you have the right to act on behalf of the business. MR. DEMARCO: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Since you are the qualifying agent. Is that correct, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: And the county staff does have what is titled a "Resolution of Authorization" that the business can execute, the officers or directors of the business can execute. MR. DEMARCO: So there's a form that I can obtain? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, you know where we're going with this? MR. BARTOE: No. Is that part of the second-entity form? If it is, we only received it yesterday. MR. NEALE: No. It's the resolution of authorization that's been used for quite awhile. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It's a resolution of authorization to act on behalf of the company. I don't know if there's any more of them in here that we seem to have in front of us today -- MR. BARTOE: I'm sure office staff is familiar with the form. MR. NEALE: If you look in the second-entity packet for the one that was qualified earlier, there's a resolution of authorization in there. MR. DICKSON: Can we, Mr. Neale -- since the original request was the credit report, can we not -- in order not to beat him up, can we not look at the credit report and go through that issue? MR. NEALE: The board certainly could look at that, decide upon the credit report, and do what the board has done in the past in similar situations, which is stay if it's -- you approve or disapprove, see -- see -- see fit to approve it, that you approve it subject to him Page 19 December 19, 2001 providing a resolution of authorization from the corporation indicating that he is authorized to act in all matters as to contracting. And that would avoid Mr. DeMarco having to wait until February to come back before this board. MR. DICKSON: Do you want to do that? CHAIRMAN HAYES: I need a motion from somebody. MR. DICKSON: Let's see if we're going to -- do we need a motion? CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think we needed a motion -- a motion to approve the credit report and then if, perhaps, a second motion that we approve the license with the caveat that he bring in the -- MR. NEALE: Resolution. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- resolution. MR. DICKSON: I've got too many questions on the credit report to do that. MS. PAHL: Gary, I've got a resolution of authorization. I have a resolution of authorization in here in the original packet that we got two months ago. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Oh, you do? MS. PAHL: Yeah. MR. LLOYD: Is it in there? CHAIRMAN HAYES: It seems it is in order after all. MR. NEALE: Well, that was in Lee County but -- that's the Lee County resolution authorization, if that's acceptable. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It's acceptable to me. Okay. So we do have the resolution. I apologize. It was in here. It was just to Lee County, not Collier County. And in relation to the credit report -- what kind of questions do you have on the credit report? MR. DICKSON: Well, this -- let me just have you speak freely. MR. DEMARCO: Okay. MR. DICKSON: I've been on this board about nine or ten years Page 20 December 19, 2001 MR. DEMARCO: Okay. MR. DICKSON: -- and I've looked at a lot of these reports, and I've never seen one as thick as yours. MR. DEMARCO: Okay. MR. DICKSON: You've been all over this country; correct? MR. DEMARCO: No. MR. DICKSON: I've got them in here from Fort Worth, Texas. I mean, maybe you didn't operate there, but I've never seen so many creditors, not that they're negative -- MR. DEMARCO: No. There's over 70 of them in there. And 99 percent of them -- of them are good credit reports. There are a couple lawsuits dated from -- from when I did work for -- for my father, and -- and I -- like I was explaining, I owned a small amount of stock, and -- and I was named personally a couple times for -- for where I may have signed on -- on a purchase order or something like that. But, I mean, the -- the bulk of that credit report is -- is as good as any, as far as I'm concerned. I mean -- MR. DICKSON: And I won't -- I -- I won't disagree with that because I only see one in all of these that shows over 60 days. MR. DEMARCO: Right. MR. DICKSON: And just a handful of over 30. MR. DEMARCO: Right. MR. DICKSON: Which I'm sure I have those on my credit report. But I do see what? Two, four, six lawsuits, of which five -- four of them were dismissed. MR. DEMARCO: Right. MR. DICKSON: Can you just give us an explanation of what that was? MR. DEMARCO: Well, essentially, if you can give me the names of them, I'll give you a detailed explanation. But they're all Page 21 December 19, 2001 related to when I -- when I worked for my father. MR. DICKSON: Well, they look like they're all suppliers: Hughes. MR. DEMARCO: Right. MR. DICKSON: Willow Hardware's got two of them, Illuminate -- Illuminating Company -- MR. DEMARCO: Illuminating Company is a local power company back in Ohio. And that was over a leased piece of property that we had and some work -- work-area lights that they -- that they installed that we were disputing the cost of it because it wasn't what they had told us it would be, but I had signed on the work order. And I didn't - you know, and I didn't -- I didn't put my title on it, so they picked it up as an individual, and they filed against me. I believe that one's been dismissed. MR. DICKSON: True, true. Are any of these at all active? MR. DEMARCO: No. MR. DICKSON: They're all settled? MR. DEMARCO: Not a one of them. MR. DICKSON: Because this credit report is back in August, and they usually run behind anyway. Okay. That's all the questions I have. MR. BARIL: On the Hughes Supply civil suit, that one is dated June of this year. Is that a local suit? MR. DEMARCO: MR. BARIL: Yes. MR. DEMARCO: No. That's -- June of this year? I'm not aware of that one. On -- on the credit report that I turned in to you, I -- I wasn't even aware of that one. MR. BARIL: Do you have an account with Hughes Supply here in town? MR. DEMARCO: No, I do not. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It shows zero outstanding funds, Page 22 December 19, 2001 though. MR. LLOYD: Right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So that had to be just a report on it. MR. BARIL: But it says filed. MR. DICKSON: But it's plaintiff. Did you -- DEMARCO: Pardon me? DICKSON: Did you have anything to do with suing MR. MR. Hughes? MR. MR. MR. CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: DEMARCO: No. DICKSON: Okay. DEMARCO: I've never -- no. Any other questions from the board? MR. LLOYD: Lloyd. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion. MR. DICKSON: Dickson, second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: further discussion? I'd like to entertain a motion then. I make a motion that we accept the credit report, (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Aye. MR. DICKSON: Aye. MS. PAHL: Aye. MR. CRAWFORD: MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. LLOYD: Aye. MS. WHITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN HAYES: MR. BARIL: Aye. I need a second. I have a motion and a second. Any All in favor? Opposed? Page 23 December 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have one opposed. The motion does carry, so we accepted the credit report. Again, your paperwork's all down here, so you're not going to be able to finish it today. It will be tomorrow before they have the paperwork down at the county. MR. DEMARCO: That's fine. Would I -~ would I go back to the Horseshoe location? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, sir. MR. DEMARCO: That's it? CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's it. MR. DEMARCO: Thank you. Sandra Kay Stiger, request to be granted excavation license with one-hour administration exam only. Miss Stiger, are you here? MS. STIGER: Yes, I am. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning. I'm going to ask you to be sworn in. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning. MS. STIGER: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your reason for being here this morning? MS. STIGER: I'd like to get a -- a license for excavating for pool companies in Collier County. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being in front of the board? MS. STIGER: That's what they told me I had to do. Back in 1986 there was no actual exam for excavating, so -- in Cape Coral is where I wanted it. And they sent me down here. Joy Munzie (phonetic) sponsored me down here to take a test that she said would also be acceptable down here to get the -- there was Page 24 December 19, 2001 nothing actually for pool excavation at the time. And she did offer me a license at the time. I had no connections or contacts in Collier County. So I just said thank you and -- and went ahead and just got the Cape Coral because I live there, I'm based there, a very small company at the time. We had no contacts anywhere out of Cape Coral at the time. And as time went on and we got bigger and people wanted to go more places, Collier County is -- is now where a lot of them want to dig. And I have signed up to do the excavation test, although even today it does not even say pool excavation in it. It is for dredging and landfill and to dig quarries and lakes and canals, which, you know, I don't do any of that. I have 15 additional years' experience after taking the test, which I did pass with an 84. And I would just like to get a license down here to -- to keep up with the customers that I have that want to dig in a more wide range. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. If-- as I understand it, to acquire an excavation license in Collier County, it's a two-part exam. One is administrative, and one is the technical exam; is that correct? MR. BARTOE: Correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Has there always been a technical section to it, do you know, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: I don't believe so. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's what I'm thinking, that -- MR. BARTOE: Originally back when she took the test, she took all that would have been required at the time, the one-hour administrative which is now two hours. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. And you've been licensed in Cape Coral? MS. STIGER: Ever since then, yes. Page 25 December 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Is that a Cape Coral license or Lee County license? MS. STIGER: It's a Cape Coral license. We're based in Cape Coral, and 90 percent of our work has been in Cape Coral. But now that there's so much growth elsewhere, the pool companies feel that they have to stretch out some. So we've basically been working as an entity, actually an employee of the pool companies. We don't contract anything. They tell us to go to a job site, and we do everything by them. We don't measure. We don't contract anything. We just provide a service for the pool companies. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're registered -- your license is Cape Coral. Is it state registered? MS. STIGER: No, it is not, although I -- I did talk it over -- we originally sent out a package for registration. And at the time they told me not to redo it, send it again, because it wasn't going through. But there was a lot of backlog at the time, according to the girl in -- in Cape Coral who I was going through. And then time just kind of got away from us, and I didn't even look into it further. But apparently it never went -- the packet never actually got there or whatever that was sent off in -- in 1987. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, Miss Stiger, it sure would have made life a lot easier up here if you would have had it registered. MS. STIGER: I understand that. I do understand that. MR. BARTOE: Excavators don't register. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Really? You can have a license in the State of Florida in a specific trade and not be registered or certified? MS. STIGER: Well, they -- he told me I did not have to -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: One at a time, please. MS. STIGER: Okay. MR. NEALE: If it's a local license, you can have a regis -- nonregistered, noncertified license. This girl doesn't have a license. Page 26 December 19, 2001 It doesn't fall under the -- any of the categories in 489. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Interesting. MR. NEALE: If I can bring to the board's attention just -- and I don't know whether everyone has it up there, what the areas of competence or areas that are covered by the excavation contractor in the Collier County ordinance is. This is any person who is qualified to ex -- excavate, to remove or remove -- to obtain or remove materials, such as rock, gravel, and sand, to construct or excavate canals, lakes, and levies, including the cleaning of land of surface debris and vegetation, as well as the grubbing of roots and to remove debris and level surface land incidental and necessary thereto in compliance with all environmental laws, the building code, and other applicable codes and regulations. Minor excavations, such as footings, backfill without compaction, and similar activities are exempt hereunder. The use of explosives is not included in this category. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, there's no question in my mind with the years of experience that she has and the verification of construction experience on top of it. It definitely would be superfluous to try to make her take an exam at this point. MR. NEALE: One thing -- and if I may, just for the board's edification, there is a section in the code, Section 22-89, which permits the board to issue a restricted certificate of competency. And this board has done this a number of times in the past whereby the board -- and I'll read directly from the ordinance -- "Where the certificate is restricted to certain aspects of that trade where the applicant has satisfactorily demonstrated that he or she is qualified under this article in certain aspects of the trade but lacks the re -- required experience in other aspects." for an -- then they -- there's an example in the ordinance. For example, an applicant for a certificate is a floor covering installation contractor may have the required Page 27 December 19, 2001 experience in laying carpets and/or tiles but not wood flooring. So the board could, if it was -- if it saw fit, to issue a restricted excavating license restricted to pool excavation only in this case. MR. CRAWFORD: I think that would be appropriate because otherwise we're giving her a license to do much heavier excavation projects that she'll probably never do, but we'd be granting you the authority to do it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So was that in the form of a motion? MR. BARTOE: May I have -- may I have to -- MR. CRAWFORD: I just want to be clear on one more item. In 1986 this is a one-hour administrative test, and now it's a two-hour administrative test. MR. BARTOE: Correct. MR. CRAWFORD: Without any other technical testing; correct? MR. BARTOE: No. There's a -- there is now a three-hour test for excavation, which there was not back when she would have got the license in '86. MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. Okay. MR. JOSLIN: I would also like to make a comment that this company in particular I do know very well. As a pool contractor myself I have used their services many times, and they do do an outstanding job. I feel that if that was in the form of a motion, it should be. I see nothing wrong with this packet at all. MR. CRAWFORD: And the motion, to clarify, is that we are authorizing or proposing to authorize an excavating license restrictive to only pool excavations. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Nonnenmacher. MR. NONNENMACHER: Miss Stiger, have you been working in Collier County? MS. STIGER: We have been working -- we have work -- done Page 28 December 19, 2001 some jobs. As time had passed and -- and basically for the pool companies to go down and as an agent of theirs supplying a service. And it was my error not to go ahead and come back down here and get that at the time. I absolutely wasn't thinking. You know, you just get your day-to-day going and go, "Oh, goodness. I forgot that I didn't have" -- and I do want to correct that as soon as possible. MR. NONNENMACHER: So you were acting as a subcontractor to the pool companies? MS. STIGER: Right. Actually as a -- as an employee of the pool companies, they would use our equipment. We would supply an operator with that equipment. MR. NONNENMACHER: Okay. Were you cited at all in Collier County? MS. STIGER: Yes, I was. MR. NONNENMACHER: Are those citations satisfied? MS. STIGER: Yes. Absolutely. Immediately. MS. WHITE: And this has occurred since September the 20th when you were to originally come before the board; is that right? MS. STIGER: September 20th of last year? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Of this year. MS. STIGER: Of this year'? I was scheduled on September 20th of this year? CHAIRMAN HAYES: No. I'm sorry. It was last year. MS. WHITE: It was last year. MS. STIGER: I was -- had wanted to go before the board at that time. I misunderstood at the office. I thought I was going to be contacted that I was put on the list, and I wasn't contacted. So I presumed I didn't make the list at that time, and I didn't realize it until after the fact. And then my father got sick and subsequently passed, and it just kind of-- everything else has been kind of out of my mind from that. But I thought I was supposed to be contacted that I was on Page 29 December 19, 2001 the list, and I wasn't. And I misunderstood her. She said, no, that was automatic, and I didn't realize that. MS. WHITE: But since September 20th of 2000, you have done work in Collier County? MS. STIGER: I have done some -- MS. WHITE: When you weren't supposed to be doing it, right. MS. STIGER: I was aware that I needed to come back down and come before the board. But, like I said, time got away from me after my father died and just haven't really been too with it right now. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I believe if we were to try to deny this that we would be not improving the quality of contracting life in Collier County. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I'll make a motion that we grant Miss Stiger this license with the exception that we restrict it to pool excavation only. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion. I'm looking for a second. MS. PAHL: I'll second it, Pahl. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? MR. CRAWFORD: In this discussion, does pool cover -- should we say pool and spa, or are there other related excavations? MS. STIGER: Well, a lot of pools do have spas with them, very rarely have a spa on its own, but most pools do have spas with them now connected all in one dig. MR. CRAWFORD: Pool and spa. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Pool and spa. MS. STIGER: That's all we plan to do. That's all we do. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You'll amend your motion? MR. JOSLIN: I'll amend my motion to read pool and spa. CHAIRMAN HAYES: How about an amended second? Page 30 December 19, 2001 MS. PAHL: I'll second the amendment. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Once again, I have a motion and a second. All in favor? Aye. MR. DICKSON: Aye. MS. PAHL: Aye. MS. WHITE: Aye. MR. CRAWFORD: Aye. MR. BARIL: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. LLOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN HAYES: All opposed? MS. WHITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have one opposed. Everything is back in order, I guess. You need to go down and talk to licensing when you're done. Not today, of course. It will be tomorrow. MS. STIGER: Okay. Thank you for your time. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Henry Simmons, request to be granted floor-covering license without an exam. Mr. Simmons, are you present? MR. SIMMONS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Will you come up to the podium, please, sir. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Simmons is the packet that you just received earlier this morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to ask you to be sworn in, Mr. Simmons. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning, sir. MR. SIMMONS: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your reason for being in front of us this Page 31 December 19, 2001 morning is? MR. SIMMONS: CHAIRMAN HAYES: MR. SIMMONS: Yes. workshop. CHAIRMAN HAYES: To get a competency card. To do floor covering? To -- to similar from the interior of a Do what? MR. SIMMONS: To similar for me to a workshop, similar work from this to me. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And the only thing that's required, Mr. Bartoe, is a business and law exam? MR. BARTOE: That's correct. And the one -- excuse me. The one sheet you received you can see that he has taken that test five times. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Bartoe, does floor covering also cover tile and other related -- it's carpet only? MR. NONNENMACHER: Carpet, wood. MR. NEALE: Floor-covering installation does not include specifically tile, marble, or terrazzo. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Simmons, how long have you been doing floor covering? MR. SIMMONS: Thirty years. MR. JOSLIN: How long? MR. SIMMONS: Thirty years. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Why are you trying to get licensed after 30 years? MR. SIMMONS: Just -- the city -- I mean, the state requires it. I don't want license to write no contract. I just want a license to do this store work. I'm not going to -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, let me ask you, how have you been doing it in the past? Have you been an employee of a certain company? Page 32 December 19, 2001 MR. SIMMONS: No. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you've been operating illegally for 30 years? MR. SIMMONS: No. Usually I work up under my nephew. And he -- the check usually is in his name. I haven't been in this state no more than four -- for 15 years. MR. DICKSON: You're getting better with each exam. MR. SIMMONS: Well, I mean, my study habit is not that good. MR. DICKSON: What is the passing? Seventy-five? MR. SIMMONS: Seventy-five. I done had the school twice. MR. DICKSON: Have you? MR. SIMMONS: Yes. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Simmons, have you been cited for unlicensed contractor on floor covering? MR. SIMMONS: Yes. MR. NONNENMACHER: Is that citation satisfied? MR. SIMMONS: Yes, sir. MR. NONNENMACHER: It has been paid? MR. SIMMONS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: How many times? MR. SIMMONS: Once. CHAIRMAN HAYES: How long ago? MR. SIMMONS: Probably about three years ago. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you were cited better than a year or two ago, and you're just now coming down here to get a license? MR. SIMMONS: No. CHAIRMAN HAYES: guess, was the first time. MR. BARTOE: Since October of 2000. CHAIRMAN HAYES: November of 2000, uh-huh. you haven't been trying, huh? I've been trying to pass the test. Well, that's true since November, I It's not like Page 33 December 19, 2001 MR. SIMMONS: I don't have no other choice. MR. CRAWFORD: In the past we've considered floor covering, carpeting, a fairly unrisky business. It's not a life-threatening business, and we've issued licenses to others that haven't been able to pass the test. Our concern would be for you, your ability to run the business and handle the financial aspects of the business. MR. SIMMONS: No. MR. CRAWFORD: That would be a concern to the community and the issue for this board, I think. MR. SIMMONS: No, I don't do taxes. I have a accountant that takes care of everything. I'm -- I'm just going to do the labor. I'm -- I do labor. That's all I do. I lay carpet. MR. DICKSON: So you don't even buy the materials? MR. SIMMONS: No. No. I'm going to work for this store that going to write contracts, and I'm going do the labor. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, let me ask you, why didn't the store just hire you as an employee? MR. SIMMONS: They have employees. But, I mean, they -- they don't sell a whole lot of carpet and -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: So what's to prevent you from becoming an employee since you only do their work? MR. SIMMONS: I hadn't discussed it with them; they hadn't They're just saying that I need to try to get a discussed it with me. competency card. MR. DICKSON: Taxes and insurance. MS. PAHL: Yeah. MR. DICKSON: Come on. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I -- what I'm trying to do, Mr. Simmons, is try -- I don't want to take your trade away from you. But in some cases it's better to be an employee working for a company than trying to be in your own business. Page 34 December 19, 2001 MR. SIMMONS: Well, I mean, I'm -- I'm doing labor work. I'm not writing no contract. I'm not one on one with the customer. I'm just there to do the work. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's what I'm saying. Why don't you become an employee of that company then? MR. SIMMONS: Well, they -- if I'm working, I'm not going to have time to go out and hustle work. I mean, they already got it. The only thing they're doing is issuing and schedule it for me. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's what I'm getting at. What's the difference between doing that with a license as a licensed individual contractor or as an employee? I have 20 plumbers who work for me. None of them have a license. They all work under my license for me. I don't need to sub out to -- to them. I don't understand in the floor-covering business why that's a requirement. MR. SIMMONS: Well, that -- that's what most of thc shops do. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Simmons, are you trying to say that you might want to work for more carpet companies than just one and you actually can't be -- MR. SIMMONS: Yeah. I mean, is -- MR. NONNENMACHER: -- an employee of three or -- MR. SIMMONS: Is this -- MR. NONNENMACHER: -- four of them? MR. SIMMONS: No. If this -- if this job gets slow, yes, I want to work for someone else. MS. WHITE: He wants to be an independent contractor. MR. SIMMONS: No, no. I don't want to write contracts. MS. WHITE: Right. MR. SIMMONS: I just want to do the work. MR. NONNENMACHER: If it will help the board, staff has no objection to this approval. MR. DICKSON: And if you've ever been over at these carpet Page 35 December 19, 2001 warehouses in the morning, it's interesting to go there because every single van that pulls up is an independent contractor. And they load up the materials, and they're just going out to do the installation. And that's what this is. It's harmless to the community. MR. NEALE: Mr. Simmons says his insurance is in order. He's had liability insurance, and he's elected to be exempt under worker's comp. MR. DICKSON: Dickson, I move that it be approved. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion. I'm looking for a second. MR. CRAWFORD: Second, Crawford. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin-- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Boy, that was a duplicate. Did you get one out of the two? THE COURT REPORTER: I got Mr. Crawford. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: further discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: MR. DICKSON: Aye. MS. PAHL: Aye. MS. WHITE: Aye. MR. CRAWFORD: Aye. MR. BARIL: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. LLOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Aye. MR. DICKSON: I have a motion and a second. Any I'm calling for the vote. All in favor? Opposed? The first unanimous today? Page 36 December 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm not ~- I'm opposed. MR. JOSLIN: He opposed it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I did vote against it. Okay. Mr. Simmons, it looks like we don't have a problem up here with it. Again, all your paperwork is here. You'll just have to wait until tomorrow to go down to the county to talk to them about the license. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Simmons, I have one comment for you, now that you're licensed -- Bob Nonnenmacher -- you must obey workmen's comp. Laws. So if you do have employees, make sure you have workmen's comp. Insurance. MR. SIMMONS: Yes. Yes, sir. Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Isn't there an affidavit in the packet, Mr. Nonnenmacher, that attests to -- that he elects to the exemption? MR. DICKSON: Yeah. MR. NONNENMACHER: That could be possible. The fact remains I want to make sure he's familiar with workmen comp. Laws and that if he does hire someone to help him, they either have to be licensed or he has to supply them with workmen's comp. MR. SIMMONS: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, Mr. Simmons? MR. SIMMONS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you, sir. Donald Wojciechowski; is that correct? Will you come up to the podium, please, sir. Are we butchering your name? MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Wojciechowski. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Wojciechowski. Mr. Wojciechowski, I'm going to ask you to be sworn in. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning, sir. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Good morning. Page 37 December 19, 2001 MR. BARTOE: Mr. Hayes, if I may, Mr. Wojciechowski came up to me early this morning, and he said he was on the agenda, which I saw that he wasn't, and he -- he told us that office staff -- he's attempting to get a license. He'll have to explain the type of license and everything. I have no packet here. He said office staff was questioning his credit report, so I was able to get office staff to get some copies. I believe you have them now. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't, no. MR. BARTOE: Okay. I have them here. I'm sorry. You may want to -- it's up to you. I'll get them to you. You may want to take a few-minute break to look at it. I checked with office staff, and they did say that's the only thing they were questioning was the credit report. CHAIRMAN HAYES: If you'll go ahead and disburse them, we'll take a quick look at them. And if we need to study them a little longer, maybe we'll take a break. Be patient with us just a minute, Mr. Wojciechowski. What kind of license are you applying for? MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: I believe it's your residential contractor license for the county which would be single family, maybe one -- one to three levels. MR. DICKSON: Okay. You started getting in trouble in October of 1990. And it ran through to the last civil judgment which was settled two years ago. We won't talk about what happened in October of'97. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Would you -- would you like a brief explanation? MR. DICKSON: Yes. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: I did catch there also an outline of an explanation. I think there was three major things that contributed to the situation that I'm in right now. The first one was that in -- Page 38 December 19, 2001 acquiring funds for a project, the financial institution that I gave my deposit to, seven months prior to me giving that deposit to them, they had a cease and desist order by the Federal Home Loan Bank board or FDIC not to engage in any business whatsoever. I, unfortunately, had my attorneys -- and they say the accounting firms knew nothing of that. And basically I lost a substantial sum of money there. I still have a civil -- outstanding civil judgment against the institution and some individ -- individuals. I also have criminal restitution coming of which since that time period I probably got about $10,000 out of a number that's just maybe under a million. That -- that put aver -- basically I put -- all the cash I had I put into the -- you know, into that savings and loan at that time for that deposit on the project. I wound up losing everything there. The second major thing was I had a large -- about a $30 million development in the Village of Sugar Grove in Illinois. And the day after my project was approved, the Village changed from a progrowth village to an antigrowth village. Being in the industry, it's hard to -- other than maybe getting a past mayor and trustees, it's kind of hard to document the effect of that. But I could tell you that if a village wants to put controls on growth, they can find many, many ways to do that. And that delayed the project. I -- I got my first phase going. It was the subsequent phases of the project that ate away. And I think that the -- the straw in the camel's back on -- on that project was that in about the third phase of it, we had a hundred-year storm up in Illinois. And this is kind of the -- progressing in terms of years from the very be -- from the early '90s. And we had a situation where, I mean, everything -- there was roads where eight-lane highways were completely underwater. My water table rose. I needed some addition -- about 8 inches below the subsurface of my road base, which maybe down here is not uncommon. But I know in Illinois in that -- you know, with -- with the type of soils we have Page 39 December 19, 2001 there is very uncommon. I needed some additional money to complete the project. And, unfortunately, one of the development lenders just got sold at the time and was unable to give any new additional development loans per their agreement with the new purchasers. My construction lenders found out about that, panicked. I had about three-quarters of the phase sold out, called in all my construction loans. I learned a few things about construction law that I hope I -- you know, I hope I never would have learned in my life. Actually, I've learned many things that I hope I never would have learned and wound up losing because of calling in my construction loans. They didn't even foreclose on me. They did a UCC sale in two weeks, and they owned everything. And -- anyway, I stuck around as long as I could. I put up all of my personal assets down to my wife's wedding rings just to keep things going up there. But, you know, at some point it just -- you know, the bank said, "We own it now. Goodbye." And I wound up basically losing everything that I worked for, you know, back from actually May 1 lth of 1983. I -- I've submitted a large -- a bunch of reference letters from financial institutions. I've -- I had somebody in here -- when I worked for a custom home builder down in this area, how I conducted myself. I think that there's a -- you know, very long consistency there with honesty and integrity and doing the right thing, just to quote a few of the things that people have said about me, not only up north, but certainly down here in this market, involved with the local builder organization. I have a letter from Dave Ellis. I'm a spike member in terms of recruiting new members. And I just, you know, hope that, you know, you would maybe look at the overall package, not just the one sheet Page 40 December 19, 2001 of paper with the credit report that certainly doesn't seek, you know, very favorably on, you know, what has happened in my life. It's something I really love, home building. I have a passion for it. I'd do it for free if there wasn't the need to make money in life. But it's the one thing that I can certainly do that could help me get back on my feet, certainly pay off some of my taxes and old creditors. I mean, I've found working for people, I just -- working for somebody, you just can't do that. I mean, you never make enough money to, you know -- to cover, you know, things that I would like to in my life. CHAIRMAN HAYES: When did you file bankruptcy? MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: It was in eighty -- it was in December, or maybe it was October of'87. MR. DICKSON: Ninety-seven. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: I'm sorry. '97, yes. There's certainly what? A ten-year history there when I owned my on business and I had control over things. It will speak for itself with respect to the letters from the financial institutions there. The bankruptcy -- the bankruptcy never got discharged, and that's why there's many judgments on there or ones that just reappear, because in working for people and having a family to support, I never had enough money to complete the bankruptcy. I just -- all the attorneys in this area, and maybe it's like that up north -- want to be paid up front for bankruptcy, won't let you make payments, didn't let us make payments, the dozen that I've contacted. So I've never had an opportunity to, you know, finish the bankruptcy. And that's why none of those debts on there have ever been discharged. With respect -- there's some tax issues on there that I -- I refused to -- many of the people said -- or accountants said, "Why don't you file an offer in compromise?" but that is something I just never wanted to do. I just wanted to pay those back in full some day. So Page 41 December 19, 2001 that's why we never asked to settle those or take 10 cents on the dollar or anything like that. MS. WHITE: This civil -- this first civil judgment here that's dated -- wait a second -- yeah, 12/99, was that just a refiling of one that occurred prior to the filing of the bankruptcy, or is that a new one? MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Quite possibly. I'd have to look. It's really hard for me sometimes to even look at this because it makes my stomach turn so much. MS. WHITE: Have you had any new judgments since October of'977 MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: There -- when I was employed at a home builder here, there was -- there was a few lawsuits. I remember one was like a cart -- I bumped someone in the back of a car, I mean, a current licensed home builder. I remember getting sued for that, but I never had enough -- which their insurance company was supposed to pick up and didn't, for whatever reason. I remembered there was a few lawsuits like that, but I never had enough money to pursue -- even defend myself, giving the deposit that people wanted for that. I can certainly find out. If there's a specific one on there, I can certainly find out about that for you and give you an explanation about it. I mean, any information whatsoever that I can possibly provide for you -- MS. WHITE: It's Yolanda Ceclia Cruz. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: That might -- that might possibly be the one. MS. WHITE: That's a new one? That's post-bankruptcy filing? MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Yes, yes. Again, it was -- I'm assuming that was a car accident -- not a car accident. I was employed for a home builder here in a pickup truck, bumped the back of her car. They said the car -- she said the car was totaled. The Page 42 December 19, 2001 builder didn't want to pay them the money, and they named me in the suit. MR. DICKSON: Let me ask you a question. You've sat here and listened to us going over credit reports already. I'm kind of the big mouth on the board, I guess. But -- MR. CRAWFORD: Yes. MR. DICKSON: But I speak, also, boldly. And you've heard us people talk about people that are not a risk or danger to the community. You are not in that category. As a builder, general contractor, you could be an extreme risk to the community, and I'm sitting here looking at federal tax lien -- federal tax liens of $160,000. You say you haven't resolved them because you wanted to pay in full. You didn't want to make an offer. I really don't buy that because you need to discharge it. But me sitting on this board -- and I serve at the pleasure of the Collier County Commissioners. And our charge on this board is to protect the citizens of Collier County. Tell me why in the world, if you were in my shoes, you would let a license go out to an individual that's got these kind of problems? MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Well, because I -- I sub -- my -- my ten-year history of being in business for myself, I believe that I tried to supply documentation here that those -- those couple major events that caused everything to go down -- the one thing I learned after all this, I think, is that the difference between success and failure could be a very, very thin line. MR. DICKSON: I admit it. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: And I used to look down at people that failed on things back when things were going very well on me. I, in a sense, make fun. How could that ever happen to someone? I couldn't really understand it and never in my life dreamed that I could be in this situation that I am -- am right now. Page 43 December 19, 2001 But -- but for someone that hasn't been there, I guess it's -- it's really hard to under -- to understand, and that's why I -- I've -- I've given you letters of how I conducted myself financially back -- going back here to nineteen -- probably 1985 through 1995 of-- and I think if you would look at these -- I mean, you know, certainly people that were lending me $2,700,000, we did a very -- our committee did a very exhaustive study on these qualifications before extending such a large -- long time. "Found him to be cons -- conservative, reliable, and a respectable real estate developer. We are highly impressed with his skills in managing the project. He has set a new standard on how we will view other development loans." I mean -- I think that speaks very highly. I actually kind of taught them how development should be thought out, planned, and done in -- that was a new standard that they judged all other developers and builders by in the community. MR. DICKSON: And -- and I don't think anyone is going to question -- we don't sit here and question your integrity. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Or honesty. Well, you asked -- I think maybe it comes up -- you asked me about a risk to the community, if I'm that type -- you know, maybe the person that, you know, would endanger the people in the community. And I think that's maybe why that have -~ have -- honesty, reputable general contractor. Even down to the homeowners on Marco Island when I was employed as a -- for -- for a home builder, they've all said that about -- you know, they've all said that about me. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Wojciechowski, you have two options: You have a local license and a state license. Have you tried to pursue the state license? MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: No. Because I never have any intent to go beyond Collier County. The intent, I have a -- you know, a 60- page business plan that I -- that I've prepared in terms of, you know, a Page 44 December 19, 2001 well-thought-out business here. Certainly in -- in terms of paying people, one of my company values is, you know, paying our suppliers faster than anyone in the industry, and I understand that that's -- whether it's not just because of a bankruptcy proceeding or failed business, I understand that to be a successful builder. A lot -- reputation is based a lot of times on how well you pay your bills. So that's one of the key principles of how I'm proceeding forward with starting this new business here, is a timely -- you pay them better -- actually, we found one bank we're actually going to pay our subcontractors the very -- you know, the day after they -- they submit a bill to us, and I think that's better than anybody I've worked for in the community here. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you, sir. MS. WHITE: I don't think we can do anything until this bankruptcy is discharged. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Well, I think the bankruptcy will never be discharged because it was -- the bankruptcy was revoked, I think, is the legal terminology for it. So the bankruptcy will always -- the bankruptcy -- there's -- I mean, I know other contractors that are working here that -- I mean, people you've granted licenses to that have filed bankruptcy up north. And all that -- MS. WHITE: You mean all of these judgments survived the bankruptcy? MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Oh, absolutely. MR. NEALE: And ifI may make a point on bankruptcy, the -- the applicable laws cited in our -- the Collier County ordinance is Florida Administrative Code Rule 61-G-4-15.006. And in that it states that the applicant's history of bankruptcy is included in the statutory definition of financial responsibility and shall be considered by the board. However, the fact that an applicant has been or is a debtor in bankruptcy shall not be the sole basis of a board's Page 45 December 19, 2001 determination to deny the issuance of a license or to request a change of status to the applicant. Further, there is an opinion of the attorney general, the Florida Attorney General, dating back to 1982, which states that the -- the construction industry licensing board, or this board, may not consider past or present bankruptcy of applicant for certification as contractor in determining whether to qualify the applicant for certification under Florida Statutes. Such action is prohibited by the U.S. Bankruptcy Code and the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution. So while it may be -- there -- there's some contradiction in there that says it must be considered but then it cannot be considered. MS. WHITE: Yeah. But doesn't that mean it can't be considered when it's discharged? MR. NEALE: No. Because the -- the actual language says that the applicant has been or is a debtor in bankruptcy. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think the credit report pretty well speaks for itself, even if you take the bankruptcy out of it. MR. NEALE: The -- the same rule in subparagraph 1 supports what Mr. Dickson has been saying in that for purposes of this rule, which is the rule under which this board operates, the phrase "financial responsibility" is defined as the ability to safeguard that the public will not sustain economic loss resulting from the contractor's inability to pay his lawful contractual obligations, that being obligations related to the business of contracting. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anybody interested in making a motion? I'll make a motion, that we refuse the application on the basis of his credit report. I know that nobody wants to do that. I apologize for that, Mr. Wojciechowski. Nobody wants to say this, but there's nobody up here that I'm going to tell you is ready to vote to give you a license, so I'm going to make that motion. MR. DICKSON: Dickson, I'll second. Page 46 December 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on the board? MR. CRAWFORD: A little bit. What direction are we giving Mr. Wojciechowski to come back before this board? CHAIRMAN HAYES: None at all, sir. He can go to the state and get a license. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: I thought you needed -- you needed the county license in addition to the state license. MR. JOSLIN: No. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You get a state-certified license, you can operate in Collier or any other county in the state. MR. DICKSON: And we can't stop you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And we cannot stop you. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: I mean, is there anything else I can do for the board, I mean, in terms of, you know, proving my worthiness to have the opportunity to build homes here? CHAIRMAN HAYES: I've got a motion and a second on the floor, and it's open for discussion on the board, but it's not open to discussion with you. I'm prepared to talk to you about that after that. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Sure. CHAIRMAN HAYES: But I think we need to go ahead and vote on the motion if we have no further discussion. All in favor? (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. It's unanimous. You have current -- 11/01, that is last month's inability to pay bills. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're still showing late paying of your bills as -- as recent as last month. Yes, sir, there is something you can do. You give us about a year of some current stuff that you're Page 47 December 19, 2001 taking care of business, and perhaps we may look at it again. But at this point as long as I have 8/01, 11/01, 11/01, 11/01, 11/01, still slow paying, I don't think anybody on the board's willing to take a chance on that. You know, if-- if you've turned over a new leaf and you can show evidence that you've turned over a new leaf-- you had your chances back in '85, '86, '87 with some of your records here. But it also indicates to us that you'd had -- did have a chance. People started trusting you back in those days to pay your bills, etc., and so forth, and since that time you have failed. Now, if you can turn it around and say something different currently and show, "Well, yeah. Look, I'm doing all this and this and this within the last year or so," I think this board would perhaps feel a little bit more comfortable with this. I want to apologize for -- for the efforts that you had to put in here to come up with a negative like that, but unless somebody feels any different on the board -- I know I'm doing a lot of talking -- but does anybody else see anything else I've missed? MR. DICKSON: The oth -- the other thing you have to face -- and, first of all, I will tell you every contractor on this board, we know we're one job away from bankruptcy. That can happen to anyone, and unfortunately it did happen to you. But I also know as a businessman there's only two people that can lock my doors. That's the bank that I deal with and the federal government. And you have over $650,000 worth of federal tax liens that are still good. Until you resolve that and say you are profitable, we know what the IRS will do once you become a viable business. Here they come knocking, and they can padlock that door. You've got to resolve those issues. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: How -- well, just, like, two comments to that: one, up until September of this year I had all my credit cards with zero balances, and I was a month ahead on my car payment. Since then I was -- been working at the Marriott Page 48 December 19, 2001 Corporation. Some weeks I make $200 there. So my employment there is working in the evening because I was doing this -- you know, starting this, working on the business plan during the day. Up until that point of this year, my credit was as good as anyone's could be, not considering the major past circumstances. But since then, absolutely, I -- you know, you're absolutely correct with that. But that is a -- a period that happened over the last couple months here. MR. DICKSON: Are you not working in the building industry? MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: No, I'm not. MR. DICKSON: Why not? MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: I stopped after being a division manager for a local builder to study for the exam early this spring. MR. DICKSON: I know endless builders that are paying top dollar for quality -- MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Well, the problem with that is I've -- I've sent out, you know, copies of my resumes, copies of homeowner's reference letters. And many of the builders that I've talked to said that I'm overqualified for a position. They couldn't see why I would be happy being a superintendent. So I've had -- it's been very frustrating because, although I could design, write a business plan for their entire business, you know, they -- they don't seem like they would hire me to be a superintendent out in the field because they don't think I'm the right person for it. If you know of somewhere, let me know. CHAIRMAN HAYES: All right. We do appreciate your coming before us. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: One other question: You say the federal tax, you know, if-- if I need to -- obviously not being in your own business, I need to go work for someone. I guess if putting the requirement on me to say, okay, pay all your taxes -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't think the pay the taxes -- you can Page 49 December 19, 2001 strike an agreement with the federal government and bring a copy of that agreement in. And as far as I'm concerned, that's the same as paying it because they'll live up to their side of the agreement if it's something in writing. If you agree to pay them, you don't -- you have -- you can still owe them. But if you agree to pay them and they agree to those terms, that's good enough. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: All right. Then it's an offer in compromise. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: I'm offering to give them less than what I -- what I really owe them. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And a certain payment schedule and you live up to that for a few months. And you bring a copy of all that in, I think that's as good as paid off, as far as I'm concerned. MR. WOJCIECHOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: All right. I'm going to suggest perhaps we take a break unless you've got any fingers left over here. Does anybody -- take about a ten-minute break, and we'll come back. We have one more hearing, and then we've got some discussion stuff, so we've got a little while. Let's take a ten-minute break, come back at 10:30. (A short break was held.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to call this meeting back to order, Collier County Contracting and Licensing. Okay. Next on the agenda we have public hearings, Charles J. Schramm contesting Citation 1191 issued on November 14, 2001. Mr. Schramm, are you here? MR. SCHRAMM: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to ask you to be sworn in before we talk. (The oath was administered.) Page 50 December 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning, sir. MR. SCHRAMM: How are you doing? CHAIRMAN HAYES: You have a citation issued on November the 14th, and you're contesting it. Would you like to explain? MR. SCHRAMM: I was issued a citation for conducting business in Collier County without a license. I had the lice -- I had a package from Collier County that I've had for four months. And because of whatever reason, being busy and this and that, I hadn't turned it in to the county. R. L. James asked me to step in and do a cabinet job for him in Bay Colony, which I did. I was tell -- I received a phone call on the morning of the 14th saying, you know, "You're down here doing business and you don't have a Collier County license." Well, I'm doing it for R. L. James. You know, I'm not down there -- I wasn't down there soliciting business. I was just asked to come in under a general contractor, which I did. Well, at the end of the conversation, I was -- I was issued a citation. Within two hours I had my license. I just -- I had the package. It was just a matter of driving it down there and turning it in. So I wasn't trying to beat the system. I'd already -- I'd had it ready. I just didn't turn it in. So my argument is, I think this is designed -- you know, this is a deterrent to prevent people from trying to, you know, to conduct business as a contractor without a license. That's not the case with me. It's just a -- it's a matter of neglect getting it turned in in time. So I missed this by two hours. Karen Clements (phonetic) gave me the same license the same day at 12:30. I was issued a citation at 12 -- at 10:30. So had he come by at one o'clock, I'd have been okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. I'm going to consider that -- Page 51 December 19, 2001 MR. SCHRAMM: Can I approach? I have -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: No. MR. SCHRAMM: I have -- well, I have -- I have a copy of the ticket. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We'll go through the whole -- MR. SCHRAMM: All right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- explanation in just a minute. MR. NONNENMACHER: Can I ask a question when you're done? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I'm asking for opening statements, basically, and I wanted to have the county first, and I called him up first, so I apologize. Mr. 0ssorio, do you want to approach the podium? MR. OSSORIO: Yes. Good morning, Commission. My name is Mike Ossorio, O-s-s-o-r-i-o, contract licensing compliance officer. MR. ZACHARY: You need to swear the witness in. (The oath was administered.) MR. OSSORIO: What Chuck Schramm was telling you is absolutely the truth. Unfortunately, many times we get contractors, unlicensed contractors, in the field. And they say, "Well, we're close to getting a license. We're almost ready to get a license." We say, "Well, that's fine, but you're not licensed as of today when the ticket was issued." He was close to finishing, so what we did was we let him continue to go ahead and get a license the next day, and that's exactly what he did. But unfortunately on the 13th, the day before, we were out there, and we asked if Chuck had a license. And his company or his employee says, "Yes, we're all squared away in Collier County." That's why we went out there on the 14th. One of the building officials was out there talking to the employees on the job site, asked Page 52 December 19, 2001 if he had a license. And then he said, "Yes. We're all licensed in Collier County." That was the 13th. The 14th I was out there, I said, "Do you have a license?" "No, I do not have a license." So technically it wasn't a two- hour period; it was actually a two-day period, the 13th and the 14th. MR. NEALE: If I may just -- as the board probably knows, this is -- these citations are issued pursuant to Collier County adopting 489.127 of Florida Statutes, which permits these kind of citations to be issued. Under 489.127, subparagraph 5-D-3, it states that if the person issued the citation or his or her designated representative shows that the citation is invalid or that the violation has been corrected prior to appearing before the enforcement or licensing board or designated special master, the enforcement or licensing board or designated special master may dismiss the citation unless the violation is irreparable or irreversible. So that is one of the points of latitude that this board has in these types of matters. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, if I can make a comment on what Mr. Neale just said, I -- I agree with that up to a point. But in this case I honestly believed that Mr. Schramm was working on the 13th. He didn't come in on the 13th to get his license. Finally when Mr. Ossorio went out there on the 14th, he decided he would come in. And what about the 12th, 1 lth, 10th, 9th, last month, the month before that? I think this correction was made only because he was given a citation. Staff would object -- not object but not recommend that what Mr. Neale read to you be applied in this case because Mr. Neale did say, "may dismiss it" -- MR. NEALE: Exactly. It will dismiss it. MR. NONNENMACHER: -- and not will dismiss it. MR. NEALE: Then go further in the same section, and Page 53 December 19, 2001 Subsection F -- it states that if the board finds that a violation exists, the board may order the violator to pay a civil penalty of not less than the amount set forth on the citation but not more than $1,000 per day for each violation. In determining the amount of the penalty, the enforcement board or designated special master shall consider the following factors: number one, the gravity of the violation; number two, any actions taken by the violator to correct the violation; and, number three, any previous violations committed by the violator. MR. DICKSON: Dickson, I move that the citation stand, be affirmed. MS. WHITE: Second, Sara Beth White. MR. SCHRAMM: Might I say something else before you vote? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah. I was going to ask you for one more comment. I was going to ask you to explain why you think that you shouldn't be responsible for the penalty since you were operating without a license at that time? MR. SCHRAMM: On the 13th somebody came out to the house and ask us if we were installing windows. We said, "No, we're doing cabinet work" because he asked for a permit. I said, "No, we're not here under R. L. James." So with that in mind, we are licensed in Collier County. He is a general contractor. I had -- I have a letter from him that would explain the fact that he's used us several times, and we were down there. This gentleman (indicating) says, yes, he was out there the 13th, and the only reason I got a license was because I got the citation. I think we all know what's involved in that package. You can't fill out a package in a day. So ! think there has -- I think there should be some intent on my part to circumvent the licensing system, which if I fill out a package, if I get my credit reports, get my cert -- my letters of work experience and go through this 25-page package, why would Page 54 December 19, 2001 I intentionally hold onto it so that I don't have to get a license? I mean, the fact is that the 13th, when this came to light -- I live in north Fort Myers. When I left north Fort Myers on the morning of the 14th, I had the package with me. Mr. Ossorio -- I don't have a problem with anything he did. He -- I was a deputy sheriff for seven years. He found a violation; he cited it. It's now up to me to present it to you to say, "Look, I left the morning of the 14th with my package and went and saw Mrs. Clements at 12:30.". So did I screw up? Yeah, I screwed up. I -- I do my own receivable; I do my own payables. I work in the field. I run my whole company. So with that -~ with that in mind, I'm a busy person. MR. DICKSON: And with that I was a policeman for five years, and your excuse before this board is like many of the excuses I got from people when ! would write them a traffic citation, "But I was going to." You didn't have a license at the time. I call for the vote. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on the board? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: All in favor? (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Schramm, it's -- if you were a law enforcement officer for seven years, you would have had the same argument from anyone that you cited for violations the same way, "I was going to. I meant to, but I just didn't." Did that hold any water when you were enforcing the law? MR. SCHRAMM: It's night and day. You can't even compare Page 55 December 19, 2001 it. seconds. "I meant to slow down." in there the next day. That's fine. I mean, I'll -- I'll pay the fine. "I meant to slow down." Big deal. You can do that within ten I had a package filled out. I was My -- my point is, I'm not trying to beat your system. If I was -- I can't -- I can't get a license the very next day. I can't do it. It's impossible. I can't call Karen at 10:30 and say, "Oh, I just got a ticket. Can you give me the package so I can go get credit reports and go get notarized letters and come get a license?" All I'm telling you is I already had it done. I just -- as -- as all you know, you get busy. Things get to be, "Well, I'll get to it. I'll get to it." Well, I never got to it. Well, I got to it after I got the ticket. But the fact is, I still had it filled out -- the intent to get the license was always there. So it's not I didn't get the license because I got cited. I just -- I missed it by a couple hours. CHAIRMAN HAYES: If you hadn't have gotten cited, you're saying you would have already been -- MR. SCHRAMM: I left Fort Myers with it. I was on my way down to Collier County with it in my hand when my employer called and said, "He's on the job. He will" -- that's exactly the way it happened. I'm -- I'll -- I told him, I said, "I have it with me." Well, he doesn't know that I brought -- have it with me. He -- the same way you hear all this. But the fact that I was in her office at 12:30 and got the license on the 14th, that's -- I mean, I have the date. You can't -- you can't fill out a package in -- that quick. I mean, you know you can't. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, what made you decide to get a license on the 14th or whenever you first filled out the packet, like the 10th? MR. SCHRAMM: When that fella showed up on the 13th, when -- because we were over the -- I wasn't down there working for myself. Even though I was doing it for R. L. James, when he Page 56 December 19, 2001 questioned it, I said, "Well, we're down here for R. L. James." Then I said, "Well, you know what? I'm down here tomorrow working. I need to first bring that with me and get it done." That's one of those that sat there on this pile, say, "Okay. This is what I'll get done." I can -- very rarely do I do work in Collier County. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I was going to suggest, is this the first time you've done work in Collier County? MR. SCHRAMM: Yes, I -- absolutely. CHAIRMAN HAYES: This is the first time. MR. SCHRAMM: This is the first time that I've done work in Collier County as my company. I -- I used to work for R. L. James. So I've done work for R. L. James as an employee. I still have an employee number. When this -- when this became an issue, our general contractor in their presence said, "Look, we'll just write you a check as an employee," that there was no intent to beat your system. MR. NEALE: The board has -- the board has found that he is in violation. The board now needs to decide what the penalty is, remembering the factors that -- that I read from the statute previously, which are the gravity of the violation, actions taken by the violator to correct violation, and previous violations. MR. CRAWFORD: I thought the penalty was a $300 fine. MR. NEALE: Well, the board has the option of that or either an increased penalty. MR. JOSLIN: I would say under the circumstances of the fact that he has now gained his license, am I correct -- MR. SCHRAMM: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: -- and some of the -- I guess the circumstances behind of how it happened, I would say that the fines stand at the $300. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Is that a motion? Page 57 December 19, 2001 MR. JOSLIN: MS. WHITE: Second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: further discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) That's a motion, yes. I have a motion and a second. Any All in favor? Opposed? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. I understand and appreciate your efforts, and that's what it's all about. We're all supposed to do what we have to do in a timely manner. At this point in time the evidence shows that you were guilty at the time. MR. SCHRAMM: There's no doubt. I -- I agree. CHAIRMAN HAYES: This will be behind you once you've paid the fine. It will be behind you. You're licensed, and everything will be under control at this point. MR. SCHRAMM: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I appreciate it, sir. MR. SCHRAMM: It's not a problem. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you. MR. SCHRAMM: Do I just mail that in to -- I didn't -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, does he generally come down to pay it, or they mail it in? MR. BARTOE: It can be mailed in, or if he's in the area, he can stop in and pay it. If he mails it in, I believe the address is on the citation. MR. SCHRAMM: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Remember one thing, Mr. Schramm, if you decide not to pay it later on or you pay it late, it could jeopardize your license. Page 58 December 19, 2001 MR. SCHRAMM: That won't happen. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you, sir. Okay. Closing the public hearings. Any reports? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Under discussion we have the memorandum of structure for hearings. Does everybody on the board have a copy of that memorandum issued by our attorney, Patrick Neale? MS. PAHL: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What this is is a standard procedure how to conduct hearings. Most of our public hearings are quite lengthy, and what we wanted to try to do was put it together in a structure so that it was understood by all parties participating in the hearing. Today the hearing that we had contesting the citations should basically follow the same as the normal hearing procedures with a few -- less stringent structure to it. MR. NEALE: The -- just for the board's edification, the reason I -- I generated this, Mr. Hayes and I had this discussion a while ago about creating a -- sort of a guideline by which the chairman of the -- of the board could conduct the hearings in a way that would ensure a fair and equitable hearing for all parties. I went through and essentially codified the -- the procedure that we've used during the years that I've been representing this board and to try to give some background on why things are done the way they're done. What's -- the board could do, after they review this, is adopt this as a procedure of-- of a policy and procedure of the board. The board has, under the ordinance, the power and authority to adopt procedures under which it carries out its -- its role. If that is done, it's my belief, and I think staff would concur, that it would simplify things for -- for us if we do have a hearing coming up, a significant hearing, is that staff could then supply this to the Page 59 December 19, 2001 respondent or the respondent's attorney who could then work from this as their outline, sort of their Rules of Civil Procedure, their rules of board procedure under which they can prosecute the case. It also, then, of course, would give the -- you know, the county attorney would all be on the same -- everybody would be on the same page. There would be no surprises for -- for anyone, because ! -- I have to say I know that whenever we've had a sig -- significant hearing coming up, I've always spent a fair amount of time on the telephone with the -- with the attorneys for both sides talking about procedures and policies and how things are done and how the board operates. So this might simplify that. So that -- that's the reason this was put forth. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Zachary, have you already reviewed this? MR. ZACHARY: Quickly today. What -- I've gone through it. It appears that's generally the way that it is conducted, the way -- it follows my thoughts on how these hearings should be conducted. I think that either -- depending on the -- the amount of evidence or the amount of-- amount of presentation to be presented to the board, that either myself or staff, if-- like in the situation today where the -- where it was fairly -- the facts were fairly simple -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Uh-huh. MR. ZACHARY: -- I think staff is -- can -- can do that. I can certainly consult with them on everything that's brought before the board, and we have a discussion whether or not they would like me to get up there and present the -- the -- the evidence as it goes forward or whether they -- they want to do it. So, I mean -- but the -- in general, the -- the procedure appears to be exactly, you know, what -- what I would do in conducting a civil trial or whatever. But that's the order of things and the way things are presented. And to make it clear to people that are coming up that don't have the knowledge, I Page 60 December 19, 2001 think, it's a good -- it's a good -- good start for probably -- I don't have much to add to it right now. MR. NEALE: The only thing I would suggest is, if the board so directs, I would take this and draft it in more of the form of a procedure and a policy as opposed to a memorandum form. What I would also probably add to it is some information on subpoena powers, discovery practices, and things like that so that that would also be clear to -- to counsel that would be appearing in front of the board. MR. NONNENMACHER: I would like to add one thing to the memorandum, if legally possible. Between 8 and No. 9, Mr. Neale was reading before about when we came to the sanction section of a hearing, you would base that on past record, so -- circumstances, the violation itself. Is it possible to put in there in between the dibble -- deliberation of finding of facts and the deliberation of sanctions that staff have an opportunity to present a previous, so to speak -- or circumstances surrounding the issuance of a citation or -- I hate to use the word "apprehension," but we had a case that hasn't come before you yet that it took us quite awhile to issue a citation and involves the Naples Police Department, the Collier County Sheriffs Department, the out -- outright refusal of accepting it, and that was the reason for getting law enforcement involved in it. So if legally possible, staff would like the opportunity between No. 8 and No. 9, before you deliberate, on what the sanctions would be, to hear a recommendation from staff. MR. NEALE: Just looking at the -- at the code, there is a provision in the Collier County code whereby the board is required to consider the gravity of the violation; the impact of the violation upon public health, welfare, safety; actions taken to correct previous violations; and other evidence presented at the hearing relevant as to the sanction. I would think that there could be, during -- as part of Page 61 December 19, 2001 the deliberations on sanctions -- and I'll talk to Mr. Zachary about this a little bit, too, as to what we can do to make sure that all of those factors the board's required to consider are contained and understood that they have to be considered. So I'll -- I'll work on that. That's a good suggestion. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Mr. Bartoe, do you have any thoughts on it as well? MR. BARTOE: I have nothing else to add, no. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. I'm going to suggest at this time, then, instead of voting to improve it, we wait until we have a new amended version, Mr. Neale. I think I like it very much. The idea that the county attorney's office, the county board, and county staff, the plaintiffs, the defendants, their representatives, their -- their attorneys all have a copy of this at the beginning of every hearing or at least mail them a copy with their notice of hearing so that they're all -- everyone in the circle is aware of it and it -- it will make a lot smoother day of hearing if everybody can follow the structure that we put together. So I -- I'm real thrilled about having one. I just want to make sure that we have all of it in review before we vote to approve it. MR. NEALE: I -- I also think, from my point of view, should the board ever have a decision appealed, is if the board has followed a written procedure that specifically is designed to ensure due process, it can go a long way to avoiding that being one of the elements of appeal. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Excellent. I like that. Anybody else got any comments on it? MS. WHITE: Are we voting on this? CHAIRMAN HAYES: No. I'm going to suggest we don't. MS. WHITE: I'd rather not, yeah. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That we just direct Mr. Neale to follow Page 62 December 19, 2001 through with the amendments and adjustments that he was talking about, the suggestions that we brought here on it, put it together for our next meeting, put it on the agenda for a vote our next meeting. Is that satisfactory? MS. WHITE: Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. We need to do our homework. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Any other items of discussion? (No response.) MR. CRAWFORD: No meeting in January; correct? CHAIRMAN HAYES: As we said earlier, the January meeting has been postponed until February. At this point you don't have anything for that agenda other than what we just gave you? MR. BARTOE: No. That's all at this time. I'm sure there will probably be second entities -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. 0ssorio is doing his job; there's no question. MR. BARTOE: I believe. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. NONNENMACHER: I have one question before we adjourn. Is this good enough notification for you that there will be no meeting, or should we call up the office and -- THE COURT REPORTER: That would be better. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Call the office -- thank you. Okay. Any other items before the board? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'll entertain a motion for adjournment. MR. JOSLIN: So moved. MS. PAHL: Second it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Adjourned. Page 63 December 19, 2001 There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11 a.m. CONTRACTOR'S LICENSING BOARD GARY HAYES, CHAIRMAN TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN COURT REPORTING, INC., BY BARBARA A. DONOVAN, RMR, CRR Page 64