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Minutes 06/22/1992 R Parks & Recreation Advisory Board ( PARAH ) Minutes June 22 , 1992 MINUTES PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD East Naples Community Park Naples, FLORIDA, 33962 Monday, June 22, 1990 PRESENT: Ms. Cherryle Thomas, Chairman Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice Chairman Mr. Timothy Blackford Mr. William Clendenon ABSENT: Ms. Geneva Till ALSO PRESENT: Mr. Steve Brinkman, Parks & Recreation Department Director Mr. Murdo Smith, Parks & Recreation Department Manager Mr. Gary Franco, Parks Superintendent Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, Recreation Supervisor Ms. Ramona Daugs, Secretary II I. CALL TO ORDER: II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG: III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Approval of Wednesday, June 03, 1992 Minutes. Motioned by Mr. William Clendenon, seconded by Mr. Gil Mueller, passed 4-0. V. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS A. Introduction of Mr. Steve Brinkman, Parks and Recreation Director B. Pool Design - Golden Gate Community Park: Mr. Murdo Smith, "As you know, we're in the process of designing a pool facility for The Golden Gate Community Park. I 'm sorry that Mrs. Till is not here to see this, because she's been an avid backer of the pool . But, what I 'd like to do is walk you through the design. Mr. Murdo Smith, "What we've done, is we've located the swimming pool where the children' s play lot is right now, because it' s the largest piece of property that we have still available in the park. The swimming pool is 25 yards by 25 meters with a diving area. We have a bath house for men and women. Also in the design is a restroom facility to accommodate the baseball field. We have a concession area, and a plunge pool for a slide. An activity pool , which is like a little kiddies pool which will go from zero depth to 18 inches. We have designed a picnic pavilion also, for shade. The total project will cost approximately 1 .5 million dollars. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "The plans are scheduled to be complete by the end of 1 this month. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Is there a fence all the way around this pool?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. There' s a fence that will be around the entire facility. Also, we're going to be constructing a equipment driveway so trucks can back around for the chlorine, etc. Like I said, there's going to be a lot of landscaping in different areas to give the people some shade so that they can stay there for longer than just a couple of hours in the sun. We're probably going to make it an activity center where they can bring their kids and spend three or four hours, instead of just coming in doing a little swimming and then leaving. It is going to be a nice area where the public can spend a few hours and enjoy it. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "What' s the start-up date for this pool?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "The bids are supposed to go to Purchasing on the 24-Jul-1992. It's about a month from now. It will take about a month to bid the project. The bids will be opened in August and hopefully go before the BCC in September for award. We' re hopefully looking to start construction soon there after, and it' s about a nine month construction time table. " Mr. Timothy Blackford, "Are they going to have lockers and stuff too?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. There' s going to be lockers and rest rooms in the building also. There's a couple of items that we're also going to put in as alternates. The slide is going to be an alternate. It's actually going to be a delete. If the bid doesn 't come in within budget, we can delete the slide. That's approximately $100,000. Also the portion of the building which is the restrooms for the baseball field can be deleted. There's a delete of the picnic pavilion. Then there are some other deletes as far as what type of equipment that we use that we' re looking at. With those deletions, the engineers feel that we're within budget. Hopefully we'll be able to get the slide back. I think that would be a good attraction for the kids. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "How much is that pool costing?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "The cost of the big pool is approximately $380,000. However, that doesn't include the heater, and different things like that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "We asked a question a long time ago and I of course don't remember it. It' s been a long time ago. What percentage of people in Golden Gate have their own swimming pools? Do you recall what that percentage was, Murdo? Just for the sake of refreshing my memory. I 'm just curious. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "No. I don't remember Gil . " Mr. William Clendenon, "I ' ll tell you what it' s not as high as the rest of the County. Not only because of the rich, there' s a great part of ,41.0, Golden Gate where you go down about 2-3 feet and there' s solid rock. So 2 a pool is not practical in a lot of the areas. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "The area where this is, as Mr. Clendenon said, there' s a lot of rock in that portion. There going to have to blast the rock out of there. " Mr. William Clendenon, "Are you planning to use a heat pump heating system?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. " Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Geothermal " Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. We're using Geothermal . That' s where you pump water out of the ground, and it gets heated. The YMCA pool has the same type of system. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Murdo, doesn't this take us out of the competition. I thought Mrs. Till , when she was talking first about the 50 meter pool being an Olympic size, and having the Olympic people coming to Florida. Wasn't this because we wanted to attract Olympic swimming competition. A 25 meter pool is not an Olympic pool is it? It's just a regular pool " Mr. Steve Brinkman, "The Olympic standard for participation in the Olympics is 50 meters. But, with a 25 meter section there, you can still have Olympic sanctioned meets. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Oh, I see. So this hasn't disturbed revenue that may have come in for these events. " Mr. Steve Brinkman, "We can still sponsor those types of events. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think what we've done here, Mary Ellen, Steve, and Gary, you can correct me if I 'm wrong. I think you've created an area like a water activity park where more people will be coming to use it. Hopefully then, we'll generate more revenue, versus just having the Olympic swimming pool . I know that throughout the state, people are saying that the best thing to do is get zero depth, get slides, so people come and use these facilities more. So, that' s what we're trying to accomplish. We're trying to generate a little more revenue. Granted, at first it may cost us a little more up front (i .e. the slide) . We should be able to generate enough revenue to cover the cost of that slide within the first couple of years. It' s going to have a couple of turns then go into the water. The activity pool is going to have a zero depth area where kids can come in an go from zero down to the 18 inches. Hopefully that will be a nice area also for kids to congregate and have a good time. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Madam Chairman, I 'd like to make a suggestion. In as much as this has been something that has been very. . . . . .that Mrs. Till has been very concerned about over the months. She's not here. I 'd like to suggest that your comments and even the questions be entered into the minutes almost verbatim. So when she reads the minutes prior 3 to next meeting, which I understand will be in August, she'll get a full report on what we've discussed here today. I 'd think she'd very much appreciate that. So, even an elaboration perhaps of some of the side comments. If you can get that into the minutes. I 'd like to suggest that that be done. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "I know we mentioned at the last meeting we'd be bringing the design. I know Mrs. Till has been very active in trying to get this pool done. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "She'd appreciated it if we did that for her" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Maybe we'll be able to reduce this design and give it to her along with the minutes also. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Sounds good! I want to ask one last question. Is that same model going to be put in Immokalee?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Similar. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "I don't think we need a slide. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "There is a slide proposed for the pool in Immokalee. We're looking at the possibility at putting a zero depth area in that pool also. What we would be doing there though, is because of the location, we will be trying to design it on the side of the pool . So it will be an appendage to the pool . " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Will , it be shallow so the public can stand at whatever depth they like?" Mr. Timothy Blackford, "Do you have the depth of the pool?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. The large pool will go from four (4) feet in the shallow end, to 13 feet by the diving area. There will be three (3) diving boards. The diving boards are located in the 25 meters section of this pool . There'll be starting blocks and lounge chairs and landscaping. There' s going to be landscaping throughout. We're going to be planting palm trees so the public can get some shade. There will be a concession area for selling food, drinks, etc. We're trying to put some picnic tables close to the concession area for public use. We're going to be running a sewer line along the southeastern portion of the parking lot to accommodate the pool . We're going to have an alternate to tie the field control building also into the sewer. We'll see how much it' s all going to cost, and it will be a good time to get it all put on sewer. The BCC approved on Friday, the staffing for the pool and the six month phase in operation. The staffing is approximately four Lifeguards/Instructors, 15 part-time Lifeguard/Instructors, some contracted services people that we will be using also, and a Maintenance person. We're planning opening seven days a week. The hours haven't been approved yet. However, we are looking at possibly from 8:00 a.m. until about 9:00 p.m. But, I 'm sure we'll have a lot of people who want to come in early and swim at 6:00 a.m. So we're going to have to work out some way that they can do that. Because I guess the YMCA is just lir 4 overcrowded with people coming in early in the morning to swim. The BCC also approved Maintenance for the pool , chemicals and so forth. fief Hopefully we will have this pool open by June of next year. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Good! Well , I hope that we have answered a lot of questions, and you have answered Geneva's questions so that when she does read the minutes she may have additional questions for you. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "OK" Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Tim, do you have any questions?" Mr. Timothy Blackford, "No" Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Bill?" Mr. William Clendenon, "No" Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "All right! Thank you Murdo! " IV. REQUESTS FOR DISCUSSION - SPECIFIC UPDATE ITEMS Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "We will go for requests for discussions. Murdo would you give us a brief update?" 41 M. Tigertail - Parking: Mr. Murdo Smith, "I have attached in your package, an Executive Summary from Mr. 011iff regarding Tigertail recommending that the Board of County Commissioners approve additional parking for Tigertail beach. I know Mr. 011iff had talked to you at the last meeting regarding this item. He said that he was going to prepare an Executive Summary for the Board. The Board basically approved looking at obtaining additional parking spaces within the park. There' s approximately 32 or so parking spaces that we can get by removing some mangroves and some trimming of mangroves in the existing parking lot. We're also looking at the possibility of getting another 100 to 120 spaces within the park. The office of Capital Projects will be looking at permitting and seeing how they can pay for parking. OCPM is going to be taking the money for permitting and possibly the construction out of the Regional Park impact fees. All our beach park facilities are considered Regional Park facilities. Regional Park impact fee funds can be used to make improvements. As Mr. Mueller knows, the gravel parking lot that was constructed, took several years to complete. So, the Board has told The Capital Projects Department to start working on this expeditiously, so we can get that accomplished in the near future. You're probably looking at, at least a couple of years before we can finally have a parking lot. Hopefully in the mean time we'll be able to get some additional parking spaces by just going and trimming mangroves, and doing a little bit different marking of the parking spots. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Murdo, one thing that I wanted to mention, was when I spoke at the Commissioners' meeting last Tuesday with regard to this, it 5 went through so quickly, and I didn't want to rock the boat, but one of the things I was going to say and decided not to was the fact that it is estimated that the time of construction and mitigation cost is $220,000 or $2,200 per parking space. I can't understand, how one parking space could cost $2,200. We're talking about removing some trees and putting in some gravel . How's that possible? Now granted, option one is $470 per parking space. But that escalated. One was $7,200. We went all the way up here to $8,780 per parking space. Now that' s impossible to believe! " Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think that when the Executive Summary was done, Mr. Neal calculated how many spaces versus how much the cost of the project would be and that's how he came up with his $2,000 per space. He's estimating that it's going to cost $220,000 to get the permitting, the design, and all those things, to build that parking lot. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , this must have included a great deal more than simply clearing some trees and throwing on some big rock gravel . Because that' s ridiculous. You're talking about what, twice the size of this table. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "I 'm sure that you are well aware of that when the state is involved, usually when you remove mangroves, there's a lot of mitigation that we have to also do. When we cleared Tigertail , we had to mitigate at Rookery Bay. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Oh! I remember. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "That cost more than the clearing at Tigertail . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Who starts this mitigation. It's inevitable that' s what's going to happen! But, who gets the ball rolling out there? Jerry Neal?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. The Office of Capital Projects will be handling the project. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Incidentally. Have we ever finished the Mitigation Agreement with the Briggs Sanctuary as it related to Tigertail Beach? Was that project completed?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Because, I remember oh it' s been maybe even before the first of the year when I was talking to the Director there. There had not been much progress made in keeping our word on that. He was pretty upset about it. The only reason I bring that up, Murdo, is that if we again go to the DNR and suggest this, it's liable to be really rough. So I was wondering if we had completed our promise in that regard. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "To the best of my knowledge, we have. I know that Capital Projects was handling that. I believe that the final payments were made to the vendor who was doing the mitigation. But, I will definitely check on that. " 6 Mr. Gary Franco, "I believe the hold-up was that we couldn't clear Tigertail until we finished the mitigation. Then he said it was OK for us to proceed. But, we can check on that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "He let us go ahead based on the fact that we were going to take care of our bargain as far as mitigation is concerned. But, then, we or somehow, it became mired down perhaps as a result of the contractor, perhaps because the County didn't follow through. I don't know. But it just occurred to me that we'd better cover our footsteps there. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "I ' ll make sure that we check into that. I think we should keep this on the agenda on a continued basis. " VI. REPORTS/UPDATES: A. USER FEES - BEACHES & FACILITIES: Mr. Murdo Smith, "In your package you should have a report on fees that we charge at our various facilities throughout the County. What I 'd like to do today, is just have a little discussion on the fees. The Board of County Commissioners, along with Mr. 011iff have directed our Department to come up with a fee policy that' s going to be consistent throughout the County as far as rental facilities, beaches, boat ramps, etc. I know at the last meeting, Mr. 011iff talked to you about some beach parking as far as meters and charging. I had mentioned that we would discuss some of our user fees for facilities at this meeting. Mary Ellen, would you like to start us off, by giving us a brief overview of what fees and charges are at each facility so that the board can get a feeling of what we do?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "I think maybe what we'll start off with is Instructional Programs. We use a formula at all our facilities for instructional programs (i .e. if you were to sign up for tennis or for ceramics) it' s the cost of the Instructor, plus the cost of the materials, and then there's a 30 percent mark-up to get what the actual cost of the program is to anyone who wants to participate. So, for example, if you take ceramics, the instructor. . . you either pay per participant or per hour and that actually determines how much that cost would be passed on. The majority of the programs that we run pay for themselves. That' s any instructional program across the board, be it tennis or recreation, athletics, whatever. If you look through the attachment that' s with your Agenda, there' s a rental policy. Throughout, at all the facilities, depending on the user group type. there may or may not be a fee associated with you using the building. For example, you could come in and rent this room if you're a non-profit organization or a governmental organization you wouldn 't have to pay. If you were a for profit or a Birthday Party of sorts, you would have to pay. As you look through, there' s different classifications. There' s a different fee structure for inside room as opposed to outside. It' s based on square footage and the fee is accordingly. Just for your own knowledge, we do work with Golden Gate Community Center, and they charge every group. The County, per proper, does not. But, as you look 7 through this attachment, you can see that for example a facility indoors • for 1500 square feet would be 20 dollars. If the athletic field or tournament is going to be looked at, again it's another fee schedule that we do charge depending on what the group is actually using it for, and how long they'll be using it for. We also charge for set-up, take down, extras that would not normally be provided by the County, equipment, you name it, it' s considered. " Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Presently we charge a light fee for tennis courts in some areas, and not in others. We also charge user groups lights for softball fields and baseball fields. The programs that we, Collier County, run have all those costs built into them. That would be the associated costs (i .e. supplies, lights) . When outside groups come in to use our facilities, they get charged. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "If I may add, on athletics, when we have a softball league, the sponsorship fee, trophies, lights, equipment, T-shirts, and those things are included above and beyond them getting their own uniforms and bats. So what we do, for example, take the Men' s League we have a fee of 450 to 500 dollars and that covers the lights they use, the softballs that they use the Umpires/Scorekeepers, and the trophies associated with that league. " Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Athletics is a little bit of a different animal from the rest because not only is there a $20.00 per player fee your team would also pay a sponsorship fee. That sponsorship fee is calculated, dependent on the number of teams in the league, how many people. It' s all worked into, so that one year you may pay a sponsorship fee of 350 dollars and another year there might be less teams, you might pay a sponsorship fee of $450. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Has this been taking place, and has it been generally consistent throughout the County or is this somewhat of a new approach?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "No. This for the most part is consistent across the County. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "This has been taking place?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Yes. I 've been here for three years, and it' s been consistent for those three years, and prior to that it was consistent as well . It's County wide and we are right now in the midst • of revising a couple of these policies. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well for example at this facility here, as far as the tennis courts are concerned. When somebody plays here at nights are these lights metered?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Originally, all the tennis courts were set up to be metered. But, we've had problems with vandalism. So that, for example there is no meters on these tennis courts. We've found that to replace those meters was costing us more in the long run than it was generally in revenue. Simply because we were losing meter heads and having to replace them. " 8 Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well then, how do you determine when they lights should be on, and when there' s activities there?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "All the lights have automatic timers that can be set. They would automatically come on at dusk and shut off at ten. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "All of the lights on all of the tennis courts in all of the County go on at, let's say dusk?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "The people who are there would be able to control the timers. If there's some activity group going to be using it, they would flip the lights on. So not every light in the County park system would be on at that time. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Oh. Well , that' s the impression that I got. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Yes. In Immokalee, whoever is there turns the lights on. " Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Right. But, if for some reason, they will be on an automatic timer, so if somebody does go over and flip that switch on to play, they will come on. When they leave they turn the lights off, and they will go off. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "It's not very common that they do burn when nobody is out there playing?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Well , also, it depends. The meter systems that we're on now, people can jam things in them. That' s the reason that we're looking at possibly removing all those meters and having them user dedicated. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "How do they work at Barfield on Marco? There's a meter there isn 't there?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Meters" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Does that work pretty well? Has that been vandalized?" Mr. Gary Franco, "That has not been vandalized. Historically the places that have been vandalized is Immokalee, and East Naples. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Immokalee I know is a problem! " • Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. We had all new meters installed at East Naples, approximately 12 meters, and they were all removed by vandals. We purchased new ones, put them back on, and when the vandals once again removed six meters, we decided to pull the rest of them out and hold on to them. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "What do they do with those things? You mean they break them or they steal them?" 9 Mr. Murdo Smith, "They cut the meter-heads right off the posts. " Mr. Gary Franco, "They were beating them with baseball bats, throwing them in the woods trying to get the money out of them. It just became cost prohibitive. They're like 225 dollars each to reinstall . " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "I have one question that a lot people in Immokalee have asked me about is softball . About these T-shirts. That' s included in that 20 dollars per person, or that 400 or 300 dollars for that team to play?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "What they did in Immokalee, was that instead of awarding trophies this year, they voted themselves, and they wanted T-shirts instead of trophies. So, to answer your question, the T-shirts that they received for where they placed in the league were included in that fee. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Now, one more question. Now, I want to get this straight because I 've got a meeting coming up. They're saying that you give them any kind of sizes. They're size small and they receive extra large. Are you accommodating them for their sizes?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "I know for a fact how it works because I played and coached a Men's 35 & Over Softball team last year and we happened to win the league. Mr. Thomas came to us an asked how many players were on our team, ant to give him what sizes each team member wears. We turned in a team roster to Mr. Thomas with the sizes of the shirt sizes of each team member. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Because I was ready to believe that you send them to them at random. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "No. It' s the coaches' responsibility to get the correct size to the Athletics section in order to order the shirts. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Every week I 've been asked this question, and I said I was going to bring it up eventually. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "In fact I had talked to Jim Thomas regarding your concerns, and I don't want to start an argument or anything, but he said that he ordered those sizes that the coach gave him. " Mr. Timothy Blackford, "Now, it' s up to each league to decide if they want trophies or shirts?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Well , that' s also how that sponsorship fee is arrived at. Originally what we had done. . . All the coaches get together before the league actually begins and they go over all the rules. Because there's different rules they can play by. They can play by ASA. (American Softball Association) or they can play by different rules. So they go through a whole Agenda of exactly what they do, and they all vote who wants trophies. Because these coaches are supposed to be representing players of their team and they vote on what they want. That' s all calculated in that sponsorship fee. " 10 ter. Mr. Timothy Blackford, "OK" Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "I understand. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , what you're saying then, if I understand this correctly, is that you're gradually moving towards charging a fee for whatever type of group uses the facility. Including civic organizations? Including political organizations?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Correct" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Now the way that I 've read this thing, if I read it correctly, that isn't necessarily what this is requiring. But you're saying in the future this would be the case. " Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Right" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Why isn't it happening now? Why couldn't it be incorporated into this? Why say we'll do it next year or the following year?" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "This document that you are looking at was BCC approved. So in order to alter this, we have to first obviously come before you, then it has to go before the BCC. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "When did the Board approve this?" Mr. Timothy Blackford, "16-Oct-1987" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "So in order to do that, we have to go back to the BCC, and this was something that Murdo and myself have been discussing. I believe we should be charging, and we're going to hopefully present this to the BCC by this next fiscal year for October. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "The sooner the better. In other words, what you're endeavoring to do, if I understand this correctly, you're sort of following the suggestions of the Productivity Committee and that is that you're taking a more entrepreneurial approach to charging fees. Which incidentally, I couldn't agree with more. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "That's basically true, and Mr. 011iff wants us to get a fee policy established. " • Mr. Gil Mueller, "Does he feel pretty much the same way about this? Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. He wants us to get this going. In fact that' s one of his strategic planning points with the BCC for our Division. That's why he' s going to incorporate beach fees and everything all into one big package of fees. We had mentioned that we would bring this to you to discuss, so that you were aware of what we would be doing. You might see for a non-profit group, they want to rent this room to be 10 dollars and hour which isn 't that bad. Usually they use it for 2 or 3 hours a night and that' s 30 dollars for this room. " I ' 11 Mr. Gil Mueller, "No. I don't think that' s out of line at all . Why should the tax payers pay for it? I was under the impression that the Executive Summary dealing with the beach & water facilities was to have been presented to the BCC tomorrow. But, now it's been removed from that Agenda and there's no determination as to when it will be back. Now is that a separate group of fees that' s being discussed? What you said a moment ago, was is you think the whole thing is going to be incorporated into eventually one Executive Summary. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "yes" Mr. Gil Mueller, "But, I had the impression that the beach and water fees are thing is going to come before the BCC from maybe the 30th. If not the 30th, it'll have to be the third for fourth week in July. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think that Mr. 011iff is looking for direction from the Board how to proceed to work on the fee structure for the beaches. Whether they want to go with parking meters, or if they want to go 2 dollars a day, or whatever. Once we get that Direction how the Board wants us to proceed, we can put all that together. That will be done, probably before the end of this summer. It will probably be done before the final budget is approved. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Will this be assembled early enough for us to discuss it at our August meeting?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Hopefully we'll have something done on the fee schedule by August. Mr. Timothy Blackford, "I just have a quick question. I understand the structure of how the fees work, but I guess it' s kind of hard to tell , how are these fees initially figured or calculated? Like some of them are 10, 15, 20. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "We didn't have that many community centers, spaces probably to judge it on. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "Basically what we did, is at that time, we took surveys of different areas throughout the County, the State, and the Southwest Florida area of what other Departments were charging for rental of rooms. We basically came up with an average of what they were charging. I think it was very similar to what the City was charging and the Golden Gate Community Center was charging. The 10, 20, and 30 dollars I don 't know if that' s a good price nowadays, because I think that may be kind of low. " Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "It was low. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "It is?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. Because you can't find a place like this big room for probably less than 100 dollars and hour at various places, and we're only charging 30. So, I think we need to upgrade the fees, and get a little higher rate, and also charge for everybody who' s using the 12 facility. " Mr. Timothy Blackford, "Is there a way to set the fees, so that they're changeable without going back before the BCC. I mean, in other words, so that fees can be reviewed annually or something. To be competitive with other type rental areas?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. What the Board usually likes to do, is if there' s any fees going to be charged the public, they like to bless them. What we can do is place it in the policy that the Director, or the Public Service Administrator would approve those, but we'd have to show fees to the BCC at some point in time. I know we've increased a couple of league fees at budget time. However, when we had our audit the person who audited us said you should go back to the BCC and have them approve a set fee and formula for that program. I think we have to do a combination of both where it won't beleaguer the BCC every time we charge a dollar more. " Mr. Timothy Blackford, "I guess my point is, with the courses, it' s cost less 30 percent. With the rooms it' s a flat dollar amount. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "Right. The Courses we can change at budget time. The BCC has given us the authority on the programs to change those. But, what we have to do, is go back and give them the formula so that they can approve the formula. " Mr. Timothy Blackford, "Right. I understand" CMr. Gil Mueller, "This pretty much says that fees should be charged for most activities. But that hasn't been the case. " Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "Not if you're a non-profit group. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , I 'm not referring necessarily to the rental of this center. But, it seems to me, and I remember. . . This issue has been on the Agenda for the four years that I 've been on the Board, and has been bounced back and forth, has been put on hold, it' s been delayed and so forth and so on. It' s long overdue. But, if in fact there was consistency in this I 'm surprised that it didn't seem to take place. That it wasn't enforced. Because, I think you have to admit, that the fee structure as far as the County is concerned, is pretty erratic. " 1 Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. I would say as far as Beach & Water, at some places we charge and some we don't. " Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "This Fee Policy is County wide, and is enforced. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "The fees are charged for example at some tennis courts but not at others. " 1 Mr. Murdo Smith, "Correct" !,. Mr. Gil Mueller, "Fees are charged at some beach facilities and not at 13 others. So when I say erratic, they are erratic. They're inconsistent, and they have been for years. I 'm not being critical . I 'm just simply stating a fact that of something that I 've personally been involved in for 4 years and it still hasn't been. . . " Mr. Gary Franco, "Can I just point something out? It may appear to be that way, however, please keep in mind that different facilities come on line at a different point in time. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "True" Mr. Gary Franco, "So in one geographic region we may not be charging, but in another one we might have been charging for two years or something like that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , that's exactly what I 'm saying. It's inconsistent and erratic. And it' s unfair. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "In the new budget that we presented to the BCC. . . In fact we just presented it Friday. There was a fee in there to charge Little League, Soccer, and Babe Ruth $5.00 per participant. They haven't had a fee for the use of our facilities before, we've just let them come to play in the past. Now, granted they have been paying for things like lights, and they do perform some upgrading on the facilities like giving us scoreboards, etc. However, this year it has been determined that we are going to charge them a fee per participant. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You know, these fees are so nominal , that no matter where you go, the fees are really so nominal in most instances. I think some of the fees for these classes if I recall when I glanced through the Leisure Line months ago seemed a little high, perhaps not. The fees are so nominal , I can't see how anyone can complain. " Mr. William Clendenon, "If it was a nickel a piece, they would complain" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , you're going to have that element that' s going to complain regardless. As a case in point, at the Collier County Racquet Club on Marco Island we have people there that gripe about the $150. If you try and reason with then, try to explain that' s it' s really a pretty good deal , They still complain. It' s ridiculous, the fees that are charged. A dollar to spend a day at the beach with your family is ridiculous. Which brings up another subject that I think you'll be confronted with. There is a certain group or element that is of the opinion that most of these fees should be abolished. They shouldn't exist and should all be free. Perhaps in some cases where the facility is used primarily by tax payers, maybe it should be free. But, where 90 percent of the people that use the beaches are out of County, I think that approach is entirely wrong. I just wonder what the staff' s thinking on this is. Maybe you can even. . . I don't suppose you want to speak for Tom, but I 'm sure you'll discuss this with him, and I 'm wondering what his feeling on it is. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "We can let the County residents park free and charge a nominal fee for other people that don't have a sticker for example. I 14 think that would be fine. I think the BCC would like to have that also. I know at the last BCC meeting a situation was brought up where one of the Commissioners has expressed using the City stickers for the County residents. That way you can let the County residents into the County beaches free, but yet charge $2.00 for anyone who did not have a sticker to park. I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work. I think that is a pretty good idea just as long as we give the residents of Collier County the opportunity to go to the beaches free. Not that is my personal opinion. " Mr. Gary Franco, "Well I think we're asking the Board for direction as to how to proceed. " Mr. William Clendenon, "Well , charging by the day, at Naples is not practical . " Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think the City of Naples charges by the hour. I think it' s 50 cents an hour at the meters. Usually people stay at the beach between 2 to 4 hours. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "You don't find people staying there eight (8) hours a day?" Mr. Gary Franco, "No. It' s a good thing to remind the Board that it' s a fee for cars not a person. So, you might have five (5) people in the car, and still cost you $1 .00 to get in. That' s not very expensive. " I 410 Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Or, you may have a car load in Naples, but it's still going to charge you 50 cents an hour. " Mr. William Clendenon, "At Clam Pass you just pay a flat fee, and up at the state park, you pay per head. " Mr. Gary Franco, "Yes. A flat fee. Like $3.50 for adults or somewhere in that neighborhood. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , the board might be interested to know, that as a result of this being discussed at our last meeting, that it was my intention to speak at the Board meeting tomorrow. I will not be here on the 30th. I won't be here even on the 15th. So, I discussed this with Tom 011iff Friday, and he said that if I wanted to write a letter reflecting this board' s decision of last meeting, that would be fine. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Any more questions on this?" Mr. Timothy Blackford, "Maybe we can get some advise or information from the city as to how they do the stickers in terms of revenue. Has that been looked into?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. We did a study a few years ago. They've done real well as far as revenue goes from the generation of money that they put into parking meters. " I"' Mr. Timothy Blackford, "I was just curious. " 1 15 Mr. Murdo Smith, "They set aside 20 percent of their spaces for cars with stickers. What they do also, is if you have a sticker on your car, you can park at a meter, you just don't pay. When you look at it from our standpoint, we have an estimated 15% County residents versus 85% non-residents that would be using our parking lots. You know, you'd have a lot of people who would be paying the meters or paying the attendant $1 .00 for parking. So, I don't think we'd be loosing a lot of revenue. If the fee was a couple dollars a day, versus a dollar we'd probably make just as much, if not more. " Mr. Gary Franco, "Yes. The biggest thing, if you have meters, is the vandalism. In fact, our cost or overhead would decrease and revenue would remain the same. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Any more question? (no response) Then, we' ll go to the next item" B. Safe Swimming Area at Tigertail Beach: Mr. Gary Franco, "Basically, the status is unchanged since about two weeks ago, we're still waiting for the permit to come back from the state. " C. Budget: Mr. Murdo Smith, "Friday 19-Jun-1992, we had our budget workshop with the BCC. Several things were discussed (i .e. swimming pool , the Park Ranger for Immokalee, the Groundskeepers for the Vineyards, the increased fees for the Little Leagues and so forth) , all those items were approved. The Board talked a little bit about the swimming pool , and asked some questions on when the Rangers would be used in Immokalee. That went real well , and the BCC approved all those items. The only thing the Board did not approve was the playground area for Big Corkscrew. Prior to that, the BCC had a Capital Projects Budget Workshop. The Board approved items including basketball courts at the Community Parks, fitness trails, and racquetball courts. Mr. 011iff wishes to talk to you about reviewing Capital items. We'll send you a copy of what was approved so you can review them and see if there needs to be any changes in your specific areas. For example, there was a Community Center going to be put into Golden Gate Community Park. There' s also some boat launch areas going to be placed in some fresh water canals in the County. We've got some basketball courts to be added to this (ENCP) facility, and to the Frank Mackle facility. We've budgeted some improvements to the Boardwalk at Clam Pass. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "That would be nice. Can you do that for us?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "I sure will . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do you have specific public hearings for Parks & Recreation, or is it a General Public hearing?" 16 Mr. Murdo Smith, "It' s a general public hearing. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "When do you have those?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "I 'm not sure of the dates, but I can let you know once we find out what the dates are. They'll probably be in August and September. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Are these advertised public hearings?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. We can give you a schedule of when the hearings are. Also, I 'll get you a list from Capital Projects that we have. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. I 'd like to be informed about that. " D. Picnic Tables for Immokalee: Mr. Gary Franco, "The picnic tables have been ordered, and they should be arriving any time now. So, when you see the Concrete ones start to disappear, you know we've got those Plastisol picnic tables. It'll be a relatively short period of time before we install them. " E. Immokalee Community Park Amphitheater Renovation: (skipped) It F. Conklin Point Boat Ramp: Mr. Murdo Smith, "At the last meeting we had, we were at 70 percent on our designs. We're still reviewing some of the building designs as well as some of the mechanical and electrical on the site. What we have to do in association with this project, is get an agreement with the Coast Guard for the use the main building. Something else that I may inform you on this site is we received a grant for $505,000 to offset the cost of this construction. That was Boater Improvement Funds. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "How much money do they have?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "They have about $505,000. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "You've got it all?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. They'll have another allocation this year, so they'll probably have another approximately $70,000. But, that was good news to get last week. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Are there any strings attached to any contribution of that nature, Murdo, as far as charging a boat ramp fee for example?" • Mr. Murdo Smith, "No. You can charge. " 17 Mr. Gil Mueller, "You can't differentiate between in-County and out-of-County in that charging structure. Can you?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "I don't know on that one, Gil . That' s a good question. " Mr. Timothy Blackford, "I mean they hold every County's moneys separately. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "Correct. So we will have a fee system there of some type. Whether it be some kind of concessionaire who'd collect the money or whether we charge a $2.00 a day fee for parking meters. That fee would have to go to the Board for approval . " G. Clam Pass Park Utilities: Mr. Murdo Smith, "There's been no further action on this item, since Mr. 011iff's last discussion with the Board a couple of weeks ago. It was on the BCC agenda, however, it was pulled. " 4 H. Vanderbilt Beach Accesses & Parkinq: Mr. Murdo Smith, "Gary & I were there last week and what they've got done now is: The curbing has all been replaced around the turnaround, and they're starting to remove exotics. We relocated the turnaround I radius in the middle of the access. It's looking real good. We're supposed to be finished with that project in mid-August. The next thing OCPM will be looking at will be a bathroom facility, which I 'm going to call Phase Three (3) of the project. The first Phase was the building of the Dune Crossover, second is the landscaping at the turnaround, and third will be trying to get the Bath House built. " I. 951 Boat Ramp Parkinq: Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's still in the moving stage, is it not?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "The Capital Budget the BCC approved includes a million dollars to purchase the Goodland Marina. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Does that mean they're not going to pursue the expansion of the 951 boat ramp?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Because of the cost, if I remember right, just to put additional 18 or 16 spaces in is around $200,000. The direction from Mr. 011iff was that the Goodland Marina property is a good spot for a boat ramp. That' s not to say that we would still not pursue 951 , but I think that is an alternative if the Board wanted to do that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I see. OK" 1 18 J. Barefoot Beach Preserve: • Mr. Murdo Smith, "As you know, the Bath House is open. There was a walk through last week in regard to the Dune Crossovers. There' s a final walk-through this coming week. The third parking lot is out for bid • right now and the bid opening will be on 24-Jun-1992. So we'll hopefully be able to build an additional 44 parking spaces there within the next few months. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "What are the possibilities of starting to collect a fee there?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "I believe Mr. 0lliff put that in the Executive Summary to the BCC. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "That' s always been a problem in trying to figure out who's going to collect the fee. That never was resolved, was it?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Not really. The residents did not want the Lely employee collecting the fee from people going into the park. There's 1 several ways we can look at it, perhaps parking meters." Mr. Gil Mueller, "Putting another guard at the beginning of the entrance might be the way to go. Lely isn't going agree to allowing their guard to collect that fee, I don't know any other way it can be accomplished. Do you?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think Lely would allow their Guard to collect the fee, but I don't think that the residents of Collier County and the surrounding areas would like to see that, personally. " Mr. Gary Franco, "That' s one of the sites we could monitor rather heavily, since we do have Rangers there already. " Mr. Timothy Blackford, "How many parking spots are there now?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "67 right now. There' s 44 additional going to be put in during the next few months. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "What do they figure it costs to put in, let' s say, a meter?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "The meter costs approximately $156. " Mr. Gary Franco, "There' s another indirect cost for the crew to go out there, of roughly $35. So we're looking at $200 installed per meter. Mr. Gary Franco, "You'll have to pay initially for the meters, but then you' ll have to budget for replacements, vandalism, etc. I would probably say that in most cases probably within a year to a year and a half you can pay for the meters. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Or even less" Mr. Gary Franco, "Sure" mip 19 Mr. Murdo Smith, "You also have a 100 car parking lot on Bonita Beach road. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Has there been any degree of vandalism at Vanderbilt as far as the meters are concerned?" Mr. Gary Franco, "Very little, Mr. Mueller" Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's encouraging to hear. " Mr. Gary Franco, "Percentage wise. There's been some vandalism, but 95% of the time they're in operational order. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , that's encouraging to hear. " Mr. Timothy Blackford, "None of the spaces there currently have meters though. Right? At Barefoot. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "We don't even collect a dollar. No fee there at all " Mr. Gil Mueller, "How much money do we have invested, other than the additional costs. Roughly." Mr. Murdo Smith, "You're probably talking right around 5 to 600 thousand dollars we invested there other than purchasing the property. Mr. Mueller, if you'd like I can give you an exact count. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "No. Murdo that's not necessary. I just wanted a ball park. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "Then with the addition of the next parking lot, there' s going to be another $50,000 for the 44 spaces. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Any more questions on that?" Mr. Timothy Blackford, "Is Lee County charging anything there?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Not at that location. I know that they do charge at other beach accesses. " Mr. Gary Franco, "Ft. Myers beach, Carl Johnson Park, and Bowman' s Beach" Mr. Gil Mueller, "They charge at Ft. Myers beach?" Mr. Gary Franco, "Yes. It's 75 cents and hour metered. They used to have a ticket booth, but they went to meters. " K. Collier County Racquet Club: Mr. Murdo Smith, "Two weeks ago we met with the Contractor for a pre- construction meeting, and we went through the things we were supposed to Itdo and what they expected us to do before they started work. Last 20 Wednesday, Gary's crew took down the fencing that they were required to and did cutting on the asphalt. Gary's crew did a great job, they were in and out of there in about a day. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I was amazed at how much they accomplished in what. . . Wednesday and Thursday? I was over there Friday, and I couldn't believe they accomplished all that. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "And in fact we had given them three days just in case anything happened. It seemed to go real well , and they were out of there real quick. Road & Bridge was supposed to go in today and start removing the asphalt, but they started on Friday and they got about half the courts done in one day. So, the notice to proceed will be 25-Jun-1992. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think. . . Murdo, what inspired that contractor was, that he caught wind of the fact that unless he got his act in gear the thing might go out for bid again. Because he procrastinated unbelievably long. " Mr. Timothy Blackford, "I have just one quick question. Did I hear you say that there' s going to be an Annual Membership? How's that going to work?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "There is an Annual Fee for court use for the Racquet Club. That is something that Mary Ellen, I, and some people at the Racquet Club will have to look at now, because, of course there's going to be clay courts there. Everywhere else around town and the rest of the state, fees for clay courts are always a little higher because of the maintenance. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do you think we can hypothetically shoot for a meeting, let' s say the first week in August?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Sure!" Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "That' s probably all going to be tied into that Fee Policy that we're shooting to have done in August. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I was thinking that a meeting to establish some new managerial policies there to establish some new approaches to managing might be in order. We're starting a brand new ball game, and perhaps I could make some suggestions based on many comments that I 've heard from the users of that facility that might be helpful . All in a constructive approach I might add. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "Any other questions on the Racquet Club?" (no response) 21 {{ is L. Remote Controlled Cars: Mr. Murdo Smith, "To tell you the truth, I haven't done anything else since last meeting. I just haven't had time, and in fact I 've talked to Mr. Hansen last week and I told him the same thing. " Mr. William Clendenon, "I'll make a motion that this meeting be adjourned." VII. NEW BUSINESS: Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Is there any new business before we adjourn? (no response) If not, I have to have a second on the motion. " VIII. ADJOURNMENT: Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. I 'll second it. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "All in favor? (I) This meeting' s over. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "Now we will not be having a meeting next month. Where would you like to have the August meeting?" Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Let's go back to the same place these two guys went in the beginning. Our old place, Golden Gate! " The meeting was adjourned at 3:50 p.m. MS:rtd:004695 11-Aug-1992 14:30 22