Minutes 06/03/1992 R Parks & Recreation
Advisory Board
( PARAB )
Minutes
June 3 , 1992
MINUTES
PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Frank E. Mackle Jr. Community Park, Community Center
Marco Island, Florida, 33937
Wednesday, June 03, 1992
PRESENT: Ms. Cherryle Thomas, Chairman
Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice Chairman
Ms. Geneva Till
ABSENT: Mr. William Clendenon
Mr. Timothy Blackford
ALSO PRESENT: Thomas W. 011iff, Public Services Administrator
Murdo Smith, Acting Parks & Recreation Director
Gary Franco, Parks Superintendent
Mary Ellen Donner, Recreation Supervisor
Ramona Daugs, Secretary II
I. CALL TO ORDER: The meeting was called to order at 2:05 p.m.
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG:
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Approval of 27-Apr-1992 Minutes. Motioned by Ms.
Geneva Till , seconded by Mr. Gil Mueller, the motion passed unanimously
with a 3-0 vote.
IV. REQUESTS FOR DISCUSSION - SPECIFIC UPDATE ITEMS:
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "We're putting the basis on 'A' of Reports/Updates
today only, and if we have time we will discuss the others. We're going
to adjourn by 4:00 p.m. Let' s start on User Fees first. "
V. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS:
A. Report on Parks and Recreation Director:
Collier County advertised nationally to fill the Department
Director' s position. The Public Services Administrator has offered
the Parks & Recreation Department Director' s position to Mr. Steve
Brinkman, who is from Denton, Texas. Mr. Brinkman should be
starting sometime around 12-Jun-1992. Mr. Brinkman should be here
for the 22-June-1992 PARAB meeting.
B. Remote Controlled Cars - a presentation by Mr. Ian Hansen regarding
the use of County property for a remote control car track:
Mr. Hansen explained that remote control cars is a rapidly growing
sport throughout the United States,
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Florida especially. He passed out some publications explaining his
club "ROAR" , and also brought two models and two remote controls.
He also commented that a group in Coral Springs, Florida worked with
their Parks and Recreation Department to establish a track.
Mr. Hansen has a list of over 60 names of people who are right now
willing and looking forward to establishing a track and joining a
club in the Collier County area. He gave PARAB an explanation as to
what the club would request. PARAB directed staff to work with Mr.
Hansen and bring this issue back to them.
C. Summary of Budget 92/93:
Each PARAB member received a summary of what staff submitted to the
Budget office for our Department' s budget preparation this coming
fiscal year, 1992/93. Mr. Smith went over it briefly with PARAB.
On the left hand side of the summary sheet, is the General Fund,
which is 001. On the right hand side is the 111 Fund Fund, which is
Immokalee. On the General Fund our total appropriation for the
whole Department decreased by 1 .8 percent over this year' s budget.
Staff came up with some new ways to save some money, and with the
reductions in staffing, the total was decreased.
Ms. Cherryle Thomas asked if we deleted many services to get the
budget reduced this way? Mr. Murdo Smith' s comment was No.
Basically the service is the same. Mr. Gary Franco took a look at
some of the maintenance items that were possible to do this fiscal
year instead of next fiscal year. He also looked at the purchases
of some material , and if we needed that material or not.
Ms. Cherryle Thomas also asked if this figure was representing
October, when some of the employees may be gone. Mr. Murdo Smith's
comment was yes. However, our Department's review with the BCC is
on 19-Jun-1992. Then we are going to get into the Program Priority
Budget. We still have not discussed that with the BCC.
There was some questions about Immokalee' s Funds. Mr. Murdo Smith' s
comment was that Immokalee is a separate MSTD. Residents of
Immokalee are charged separately for their parks. Immokalee is a
separate taxing district.
VI. REPORTS/UPDATES:
A. User Fees -- Beaches:
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "The County Commission asked us to put together a
report on Beach parking fees and Boat Ramp fees. It was the idea
that I received from the Board that they wanted to do something in a
way of having a consistent policy for beach parking from one end of
the County to the other. Generally, what we've had in the past has
been a different fee for different parks. Well , generally the
parking fee is the same, but in some cases we don't have fees and in
some cases we do. The Board is looking for. . . (1) What are we doing
today? (2) What are the options? (3) Make some sort of a
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recommendation to make fees consistent. What I tried to tell the
board is, in terms of the maintenance costs, the cost to man the
parking booths, the parking fees don't cover our expenses. In
total , we generate $240,000 in revenue against expenses of $334,000.
We're short about $94,000 that' s made up through Advalorem tax
money. Now that has been status quo. We have always operated that
way, and that' s not particularly bad or good. That' s just the
breakdown of how revenues match our expenses today. "
Three legitimate options for the Board to consider if they want to
try and standardize the parking fee policy are:
The first option was to just have non-manned sites. This is
primarily a parking meter option in which you meter all the beach
parking sites. Given the total number of parking spaces we have, a
capital cost to do that would be $190,000. There are some possible
cheaper alternatives in terms of machinery that staff has found.
They are more sort of an on your own type of thing. You pay the
fee, take a ticket, and it assigns you to a spot. This would
require somebody in the form of a Ranger to go by and check to make
sure that everyone who' s in a parking space actually has a receipt
for the parking space. The revenues however, we would assume would
remain constant. If you keep the parking fee the same and simply
switch from manned sites to parking meters, your revenue would come
to $240,000. You'd actually make a profit going that way of about
$33,000 a year.
The Second Option is simply to continue the current method, but
increase the parking fee at each of the sites so that you would
offset the deficit that you have in your spending plan. To do that
would mean an increase in parking fees from $1.00 to $1 .75 at least.
That would produce that additional $106,000 revenue needed. That
covers that shortfall by increasing the fee by 75 cents. Mr. Thomas
011iff did make a recommendation to go ahead and increase parking
fees to $2.00 instead of $1 .75. It's easier to deal with from the
Parking Attendants standpoint, and it would also create a reserve to
Capital Expenditures in the way of benches, sidewalk repairs,
boardwalk repairs, and dune crossover kind of repair work that we
currently don't have funding for.
The Third Option, is simply not to charge at all . To do that, you
would actually increase the cost to the General Fund by an
additional $115,000 over what you're paying today. What you need to
consider there, which is kind of an oddity, is that we're currently
paying $155,000 to the City of Naples annually for free beach
parking. In total , to have a free beach parking program for all of
the County beaches would only cost us $208,000. Just slightly more
than what we pay the City to have free beach parking for the County.
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "Of the three, I did not make a recommendation.
I just wanted to provide the options and give the BCC a financial
snapshot of what would happen, should the BCC try to go with any of
those three. There's little changes that you could make to either
of them. It all depends on just where you stand. Staff is planning
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on taking this to the Board on 23-Jun-1992."
The only place we have meters currently is at Vanderbilt. Mr.
Thomas 011iff commented, by placing meters at those sites where
you've currently got no fee today, you end up with nothing but
revenue.
Further discussion then entailed the weighing and measuring of the
three different options. PARAB' s final decision was as follows:
Mr. Gil Mueller, "What do you think of experimenting with meters in
a given area? I 'm talking about a typical facility where you would
get a good analysis and an honest appraisal of how meters really
would work. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "I guess the first question would be, what are
you trying to find out? I think with meters you know certain
things. You're going to have a certain amount of vandalism, there's
going to be a certain cost to collect the money there, and there' s
going to be a certain administrative headache in chasing people who
get tickets and have to pay their fines. But, other than that, I
think you're going to have revenue, and you're not going to have
people expenses associated with it. You're also not going to have
security. That' s what you get with parking meters. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "It' s the consensus of the Board to let it show
in the minutes that Ms. Geneva Till , Mr. Gil Mueller, and myself
like option number two (2) as a recommendation. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "If this is to be in the form of a motion, if you
want something verbatim, we can do that, but I think Mrs. Thomas
pretty much capsulized. I 'd kind of like to again, for the staff to
recommend to the BCC to consider the experimental aspect of meters.
To see if they really work. It might be a winner. We might want to
do it all over, who knows. But then again, by the same token, it
might be a disaster. So, why not just go into it .lust a little bit
at first. "
Mr. Murdo Smith commented that we only basically have a couple of
sites where we can go into it, where we have unmanned booths.
Barefoot Beach, and Barefoot Beach Preserve. Barefoot Beach has
100 parking spaces and the Preserve has 67 parking spaces right now
with another 44 being planned for this year. We've also a small
area at North Gulf Shore for 26 meters. He also suggested to try
them at the boat ramps.
Staff submitted a document on User Fees that we have at each of our
Park facilities. Staff would like PARAB to review this information
for discussion at the next scheduled meeting.
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think on the Audit that we have three items that
4 /, we have to go back to the BCC for clarification on fee structures.
One was a fee policy for instructional classes, standardization
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throughout the County, and facility rental fees.
PARAB requested that staff then put this on the Agenda under
Reports/Updates for their next meeting.
Mr. Murdo Smith commented that Mr. 011iff is waiting for him to get
those three items back so that the BCC can approve the resolutions.
Mr. Thomas 011iff commented that the Audit talked about how we
develop our overhead charges for recreational programs, etc. Some
of that is actually going to take a little work to come up with.
For example: What is the actual cost to provide recreational
programs? What should the overhead fee be? It may not be just a
one meeting kind of an item. In fact, Mr. Thomas 011iff asked the
BCC in their strategic planning, is this going to be one of the
major items that this Division is going to try to capture this year
and that's going to be the whole fee structure in Parks and
Recreation. We'll be starting with this one, then Beach & Water
fees. Then we move right into the recreational side. We'll
probably end up doing Athletics as well . So, these things will be
popping up on your Agendas now for the next couple of meetings. "
B. Safe Swimming Area at Tigertail Beach
Mr. Murdo Smith commented that we have received the affidavit signed
by the County Commission. Now we have to send it to the State, and
then they'll be issuing us the approval to install the buoys at the
Tigertail Beach area. Mr. Gary Franco commented that actually,
we're sending it to Mark Miller, in Ft. Myers, and we should have
the permit rather shortly.
C. Budget - Program Priorities:
Staff has still not yet discussed this item with the BCC, however at
our June 19 meeting when we review the budget, the Board will
discuss it at that time.
D. Registration Forms - Hold Harmless Clause:
Mr. Murdo Smith included in PARAB' s package a response from the
County Attorney.
Mr. Gil Mueller commented that the only reason he questioned the
Hold Harmless Clause, is because there were quite a few negative
comments about it.
Ms. Mary Ellen Donner commented that when there is a transaction
involving money, the forms are always used.
Mr. Murdo Smith commented that they are basically a reservation
type of form. Whenever anyone reserves a facility, they complete
that form.
E. Picnic Tables for Immokalee:
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We are waiting for receipt of those picnic tables. We anticipate it
within the next two or three weeks.
Ms. Cherryle Thomas commented that she has been receiving numerous
complaints about no electricity for the vendor stands, and requested
staff to look into redoing that.
The Park Maintenance section in Immokalee is doing some repairs to
the softball field. They're putting up some wind screening, we're
going to place new clay on the infield. We issued the Sheriff out
there keys to the racquetball courts, as requested. Also the
drinking fountains are going to be replaced.
Ms. Cherryle Thomas requested a portable phone for Immokalee
Community Park. She also commented that was high on Sheriff
Saunders list, that they thought a portable phone is necessary.
Staff will check into it further.
Ms. Geneva Till commented that she talked to Commissioner Goodnight
and she said that the people around Big Cypress would like to have
some kind of recreation facilities out there.
Mr. Thomas 011iff commented that we are doing two things out there.
(1) The GAC Land Trust Group is trying to decide how to sell the
land and spend the money, and they want Parks & Recreation to build
a Community Park in the Estates. GAC is pursuing now, some tracts
of land there that are of the size 25-35 acres that could
accommodate this, and try to find one that all the people are
willing to sell . They don't have condemnation abilities. They've
got to try and find land owners that are willing to sell . Staff
gave them sort of a price list on how much it would cost to build
certain things in a park, and we're waiting now to hear back from
them. (2) Also, Mr. Thomas 011iff stated that he talked to
Commissioner Goodnight about the Big Cypress School this morning,
and she indicated that she wanted us to pursue some sort of Joint
Use Agreement with the School so we could have somebody go by and
open up the fence at the school and close it at a certain time so
the residents out there can use the school facilities even after the
school is closed and on weekends. Staff will have to meet with the
Principal and then the School Board.
Ms. Cherryle Thomas commented that she was told there is a group
that will be asking to appear before PARAB on this item, when school
gets out.
Mr. Murdo Smith commented, in the budget for this year for
Immokalee is a request for a Park Ranger, which is an expanded
service. The BCC has to approve that at the 19-Jun-1992 meeting,
9:00 to 10:30 a.m.
F. Immokalee Community Park Amphitheater Renovation:
Mr. Gary Franco commented, that the pre-bid conference is set for
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6-Jun-1992 in Immokalee at the Amphitheater. That means the award
or the bid tabulations will be held on 22-Jun-1992, and then
hopefully some time very shortly we'd award a Contract.
G. Reorganization of Parks and Recreation positions:
As you know three positions in our Department were eliminated. The
three positions were Recreation Superintendent, Beach and Water
Supervisor, and Racquet Sports Supervisor. Of those three people
that were in those positions, staff has worked out something with
two of them. So, two so far will be remaining with the Department.
We still have to locate a position for the person who had the Beach
& Water Supervisor's position. So, Mary Ellen is now the Recreation
Supervisor, and Ed Torroni is now working with Jim Thomas in
Athletics as a Park Program Supervisor.
Mr. Thomas 011iff commented that we've already hired the new Parks
and Recreation Director. He should be here June 15. We've made a
recommendation to fill a position at Frank E. Mackle Jr. Community
Park. We've also filled the Ranger' s position on Marco with an
in-house person. So, now we've got another Ranger vacancy. All of
our Summer interns are filled. The Community Center Aide for the
East Naples Community Park is filled. So as far as the positions
that we have, we're almost full staff with the exception of the
Assistants to the Community park which have never been filled.
Mr. Gil Mueller asked what Bob Legler' s responsibilities were. Mr.
Murdo Smith, "He's the Beach & Water Supervisor. He's in charge of
all the Beach & Water sites throughout the County, the parking
attendants, and also the concessionaires on the beaches. "
Mr. Gil Mueller asked how will those things be covered once the
position is vacant, and are they being covered now. Mr. Thomas
011iff commented that coverage will be by the Park Ranger section,
and just everybody trying to absorb a little bit of the
responsibility across the board. This will provide a little less
supervision. We're going to have to do with a little less.
Hopefully the employees that we have are good enough so that we
don't have to supervise them as much. We also filled the Fiscal
Clerk' s position and she should be with our Department starting
6-Jul-1992.
We're also advertising for a Park Program Leader in Immokalee for
the Gymnasium at the Middle School .
H. Internal Audit Update:
Basically the three items the Internal Audit said that we needed to
address is in the fee policy area. What we would like to do, is
over the next couple of meetings go through that and discuss fees
with you.
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "Just so you know too. I 've been in Departments
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throughout the County as they've been audited, and this was a good
audit. This was about the third one that we've had. If that's all
the auditor could find for a Department that does as much fee
collection as this one does, they're doing a heck of a job.
Generally they're gutting Departments and making them revise all
their processes and procedures. They had very little to say. They
said basically we do things right, you just need to go to the Board
and have them bless the way you do them. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "That was those three items on the fee policy of
how we charge for programs and rentals of facilities."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. I 'm going to make a statement. I 'm happy to
see the corrective action regarding accurate reporting of revenues
that's finally been inaugurated. I 've brought this subject up many
many times for the past four years. After I have noticed
questionable handling at Caxambas Pass, sport equipment
concessionaire at Tigertail , and Clam Pass. So, I 'm glad that this
audit I think inspired this. Because it can't help but bring more
revenue in. And I really hate to see those guys get away with it. "
I. Conklin Point Boat Ramp:
This is just an update on how we're doing with the plans. Monday,
we had our 70 percent plan review with the Engineers. We're 70
percent complete. Staff had some questions on some of the
electrical , but basically the buildings, the location of the ramp,
and everything else is set. We're just reviewing some of the
underground now. We should be getting that back within the next
month on a final review.
We also have sent away a second response to the state for questions
that they had asked about the boaters registration funds that we
would like to use to build this facility. As we have said before,
we're hoping to get about $505,000 dollars to offset the cost of
this park. The land is cleared, and that is about it right now.
Staff is also trying to draft an agreement with the Coast Guard
before we go to bid because the Coast Guard is a tenant of the
building that we're building there. Before we actually start to
build a building with the Coast Guard in it, we want to make sure we
have an agreement with them.
J. Clam Pass Park Utilities:
This Tuesday there is an Executive Summary in front of the County
Commission which provides for them a couple of options to provide
water, electricity, and telephone to the end of Clam Pass Park. The
BCC asked for this report as quick as we can get it done. The
options that we've got are generally running things down the
Boardwalk where the old drawbridge was. Those waters used to be
called navigable waterways. We understand now, that distinction is
probably going to be lifted from that water and we can eliminate the
need to have that drawbridge there anymore. What they're trying to
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do is just call it basically a flushing system that is not
navigable. That drawbridge has never been opened for sailboat
traffic. It has been opened once annually for maintenance to make
sure that it still works. But, the public has never used it. But,
we hope we're in a position now to be able to go back down the
boardwalk running some water from the County's water line, some
electricity which we are going to size to meet the existing pod, and
another third pod of the same type of facility that's there. We're
not trying to build an electrical system that will handle a 250 seat
restaurant. What we're trying to do, is handle what' s there, and a
little bit more. All of those options are less than $280,000.
There are four different scenarios they can choose, but each of
those is less than $280,000 depending upon which way the BCC wants
to go. Again, by contract, the Registry has to pay for 50 percent
of the cost of that, and the County currently has in it' s budget
$156,000. So the funds are all in place to do the project whichever
way the BCC decides.
K. Pools:
Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "We're getting towards the end of the design
phase of the pool that's going to be located in Golden Gate
Community Park. What we have is an eight lane, 25 meter by 25 yard
swimming pool with an activity pool that is going to be zero to 18
inches in depth for the smaller kids. We also have a slide pool , a
double loop slide with a definite drop pool separate from the other
two. I 've been having probably three meetings a week on the types
of equipment, the types of concessionaire equipment, the chairs,
everything you can possibly think of. Murdo, the design team, and I
meet once every two weeks to further the designs and figure out
interiors, exteriors, material , landscaping, etc. We are looking
for a final by the end of June. We're looking to go out to bid
sometime in July and awarding the contract and starting of the pool
sometime in September. "
Ms. Geneva Till , "Are you planning to have family memberships?"
Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "We've proposed, pursuant to the approval of
the BCC, fees for single families, children, seniors, passes,
instructional lessons, and various other programs. But we will
bring that before PARAB first, before going to the BCC for
approval . "
Mr. Murdo Smith commented that he will bring the design along to the
next PARAB meeting.
L. Vanderbilt Beach Accesses & Parking:
We've basically started Phase II, putting in some landscaping and
removing some exotics. The Phase II is the complete landscaping of
the turn-around.
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M. 951 Boat Ramp Parking:
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "We have included the Goodland Marina as part of
the Capital Budget for the BCC's consideration rather than just
taking it as a separate item to them. Just as a budget they will
see the total cost for both land purchase and construction for that.
We just frankly don't have the cash for the entire project, so we're
showing the land purchase only. The land itself is valued at one
million dollars. They has also been talk about the idea of swapping
some land that the County owns (i .e. Bluebill ) for some property on
Goodland. That will be a BCC decision when it comes down to the
budget. It's an ideal location, but it' s a pretty hefty price tag
as well . We've got some boat ramp requirements in the Growth
Management plan. Whether the Board's willing to spend that kind of
money for boat ramps or not, I don't know.
N. Collier Bonita Beach Park Project:
It was agreed to take this issue off the agenda.
0. Barefoot Beach Preserve:
The Bath House opened 26-May-1992. The Dune restoration work is
going on, and also the Boardwalk construction. Sometime in July we
are supposed to have the whole project complete.
Mr. Gil Mueller asked when staff thought this facility will be
completed to the extent that we can justify charging a fee to get
into that park like we do at other beach parks. Staff commented
that we're in the process right now of designing and putting out for
bid an additional 44 parking spaces, which was a third parking lot
never built in Phase I .
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Why would it be necessary to wait until this
additional parking is available to begin to charge a fee to get into
that park?"
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "It wouldn't. "
Mr. Gil Mueller questioned staff's and Tom 011iff' s thinking as far
as getting to the point of charging a parking fee. He also
commented that it just seems as though that could bring in some
additional revenue, solve some of our monetary problems, and in a
way other parks are subsidizing the Preserve which to him doesn't
seem fair. Mr. Thomas 011iff commented that staff could add this to
the Executive Summary scheduled to go before the BCC on 23-Jun-1992
as part of the fee item for beach and boat ramp parking fees, to
make a recommendation that also be included as a fee charged beach
park, whether it be manned or metered.
Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. Then I would like to make a motion to that
effect then, that you include in your Executive Summary that the BCC
consider inaugurating a fee in as much as the facilities are pretty
much available now, which was, I understand the reason that nothing.
was done prior to this until we can justify it that we couldn't
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start to charge a fee. Ms. Geneva Till seconded the motion, and it
passed with a 3-0 vote.
P. Collier County Racquet Club:
The Insurance, Bonding, and all those papers have been signed by the
Contractor. Tom Donegan and staff are looking for a Preconstruction
meeting some time at the beginning of next week to go ahead and get
started with the Tennis Courts at the Racquet Club. Mr. Gil Mueller
commented that he was really pleased to hear that there is some
progress being made on that.
VII. NEW BUSINESS:
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "Capital Projects is working on another Executive
Summary as a request of the BCC which is part of the expansion of
Tigertail Parking lot. Basically, there are three options to look at.
Option 1: It is very difficult to obtain a permit for expansion on the
existing property which is in the middle of a wetland area. There is a
little bit of an upland in the middle of all the Mangroves. We can try
to get a permit to carve a driveway over there. This is a very, very
difficult process. It took staff three years to get the permit for the
expansion of parking for that park before.
Option 2: Purchase some of the residential lots which front the park
along Spinnaker Road. This was talked about before, and some of the
homeowners along Spinnaker Road were opposed to the idea of the
increased traffic or the look that it would add to their neighborhood.
It probably would be cheaper and much easier to permit this option
because most of those lots are already cleared and have no mangrove
problems at all on them. For location they are right there at the park.
As part of the Executive Summary, there will be an attachment showing
what is for sale, what is the asking price, what is the appraised value
of those, and how much square footage of land it would take to equal the
amount of parking that you could put on the site that we currently have.
We thought we can get another 120 parking spaces on the upland area
inside that mangrove. How many lots would it take to equal 120 parking
spaces hasn't been figured out yet. Mr. Gil Mueller commented that
there would be considerable local opposition to this option.
Option 3: It's called lot K. It's about 1/4 of a mile away from
Tigertail . The idea was to create a parking lot there, and to try
either working out some form of trolley transportation with the existing
transportation companies on the island or develop some sort of
transportation program on our own to shuttle people back and forth from
that parking lot to Tigertail .
All three of the options are difficult, and they've got a down side to
each of them. But those are the options that the BCC will get, and
they'll also get some price tags for each. Before the item goes to the
BCC and as soon as the Executive Summary is done, Mr. Thomas 011iff will
send PARAB a copy of it. If PARAB has some comments that you want to
make about that Executive Summary they were asked to call staff.
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Mr. Gil Mueller, "Dick Shanahan asked me to speak before the Board on
that, and I recommended that they get this thing off the ground just as
soon as possible, because I remember like Murdo, that the problems that
came up when they put in the parking lot originally. It took three
years. But, there's ample land to do it in the interior as opposed to
along Spinnaker. But, I think it would just take an awful long time.
It's going to be necessary though. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "That will be on the BCC Agenda the 16-Jun-1992."
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "The other item that I have is just a note to you
that Murdo and I put together the Capital Budget for the Parks program
based on the Growth Management Plan. But, both of us realized, in
putting that plan together that there was some things that we'd like to
change. I 'm not sure, in all of the budgets that we have, that we're
spending the money that we have collected in Impact Fees in other places
where you get the most bang for the public's buck in those budgets. I
just think over five years since that plan was adopted, things have
changed. Especially in some of the places (i .e. Immokalee, Golden Gate
Estates) . I think originally there was not a Community Park in Golden
Gate Estates because it was always intended to have a Regional Park
somewhere in the Estates area. Because the Board made some changes,
we're not going to build a Regional Park for years, so there is no close
Community Park to the Golden Gate Estates area, even though it' s
probably the fastest growing area in all of Collier County. Just some
small changes like that. We're going to be working on some amended plan
ideas. But, we're going to be looking at this Board to be the one who
tells whether or not where we think we ought to be spending the money to
make some sense. We are going to try to come back and say, there' s a
big demand for soccer or baseball and softball fields or some of those
kinds of things in each of your respective areas. Hopefully you can
give us some kind of feedback, so we can take that back to the BCC and
say we'd like to amend an entire Growth Management Plan and show them
the changes. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "We'll certainly do our best. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Maybe we should even put that on requests for
discussion so that we stay on target with each area. "
VIII. ADJOURNMENT:
PARAB decided not to have a PARAB meeting in July, 1992.
Mr. Gil Mueller motioned to adjourn the meeting at 4: 12 p.m. Ms. Geneva
Till seconded, and the motion passed with a 3-0 vote.
MS:rtd:004474
17-Jun-1992 Wed 10:12
12
MINUTES (long version)
PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Frank E. Mackle Jr. Community Park, Community Center
Marco Island, Florida, 33937
Wednesday, June 03, 1992
PRESENT: Ms. Cherryle Thomas, Chairman
Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice Chairman
Ms. Geneva Till
ABSENT: Mr. William Clendenon
Mr. Timothy Blackford
ALSO PRESENT: Thomas W. 011iff
Murdo Smith
Gary Franco
Mary Ellen Donner
Ramona Daugs
I. CALL TO ORDER: The meeting was called to order at 2:05 p.m.
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG:
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Approval of 27-Apr-1992 Minutes. Motioned by Ms.
Geneva Till , seconded by Mr. Gil Mueller, the motion passed unanimously
with a 3-0 vote.
IV. REQUESTS FOR DISCUSSION - SPECIFIC UPDATE ITEMS:
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "We're putting the basis on 'A' of Reports/Updates
today only, and if we have time we will discuss the others. We're going
to be out by 4:00 p.m. Let's start on User Fees first, since that' s
what we were most interested in from our last two meetings, and then if
we have time, for the remaining Updates or if one these of the remainder
is very important to you, you have something you want to bring to our
attention, then just pick it out for us, and bring it up. OK"
VI. REPORTS/UPDATES:
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "We'll start on User Fees - Beaches. " Mr. Murdo
Smith, "Mr. 011iff was going to be here to present that. Could we wait
just a little bit. I could go through some of the other new business
items for you. "
1
V. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS:
A. Report on Parks and Recreation Director:
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I 'd like to give you an update on the Parks and
Recreation Director' s position. They have offered the position to
Mr. Steve Brinkman, who is from Denton, Texas. Mr. Brinkman should
be coming in sometime around the middle of this month. So, we'll
have a new Director and he'll be here for the June meeting. "
PARAB commented that they have had better communication from Murdo
and staff then they did with the previous Director and
Administrator.
The County advertised nationally to fill the Department Director's
position. Mr. Gil Mueller asked the age of the new Director.
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Murdo, does that mean that it may be a
possibility that he may restructure this meeting, and that you all
may not get to come. Every Director that comes in, has that
privilege. Does that mean that you won't be coming anymore?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think that that we'll all still be coming. It
all depends on items and so forth brought before the board. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I would think that Murdo would have to be here,
because consistently even when Mr. Brinkman' s predecessor had been
to supply information. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "It's good to have these people here too, because
they know more about what' s going on in their sections than I do. "
B. Remote Controlled Cars - a presentation by a group regarding the use
of County property for a remote control car track:
Mr. Murdo Smith, "We had a gentleman call us about a month ago and
requested a piece of land for remote control cars. A little off the
track kind that you see running around. I told him that we would
bring it before the PARAB for review. " Since this gentleman was not
yet present, PARAB decided to table this issue temporarily until he
arrives. What they were looking for, was a small piece of land
where they could have some parking, and build a track and so forth
for their off the road cars. Risk Management doesn't have a real
problem with it. We don't either. Ms. Cherryle Thomas commented
that on the Immokalee Highway there is a remote control raceway
going up. (to be continued)
2
C. Summary of Budget 92/93:
O Mr. Murdo Smith, "You received in your packets for last week, a
summary of what we submitted to Budget for our Budget preparation
this year. I would just like to go over briefly with you what it
consists of. On the left hand side of your sheet, is the General
Fund, which is 001. On the right hand side is the 111 Fund Fund,
which is Immokalee. On the General Fund our total appropriation for
the whole Department decreased by 1.8 percent over this year's
budget. I think staff did a good job. They came up with some new
ways to save some money, and also with some reductions and so forth
in staffing, that has brought it down. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Did we delete many services to get it down
this way?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "No, basically the service is the same. Gary took
a look at some of the maintenance items that possibly we can do this
year instead of doing next year. Things like that. And, looked at
the purchase of some material , if we needed to or not. Overall ,
generally we went down a little bit."
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Good. Now is this figure representing
October, when some of the Employees may be gone?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. But, we have our review with the BCC on the
19th of June and then we are going to get into the Program Priority
Budget. We still have not discussed that with the BCC. We had that
scheduled approximately six or seven times. It kept getting
delayed. That's why I did not make the Immokalee meeting, because I
was told I had to be there until the Board finished with Emergency
Services and going with us. They didn't get to us, so they're going
to do it at the Budget review times. We'll go over our Program
Priority Budgeting at that time. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Does this have anything to do with Paragraph F,
page 10 of last month's Minutes? I was not aware of this. Neither
were any of the other Board Members, and Gary mentioned that he
would get us more information and we'd discuss it this meeting. Can
you enlighten us a little bit on that?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Immokalee is a separate MSTD. That residents of
Immokalee are charged separately for their parks and so forth out
there. It' s a separate taxing district for that. Why? I think it
had something to do when it was involved in the double taxation with
the City because some of those issues out there in Immokalee, are
not close to the Naples area as far as distance. They've got their
own taxing district out there, for things in Immokalee because most
of the people who live in Naples don't travel out to Immokalee to
utilize the facilities out there."
Ms. Geneva Till expressed her disappointment that the swimming
facility at the Golden Gate is only half the size of what we were
going to build. Murdo explained that the cost is still the same as
what the Growth Management Plan started with. It was approximately
3
1.5 million when Growth Management started with the swimming pool .
Murdo commented that what happened with the swimming pool is that
for awhile there is got a little bit bigger than it was intended
to, and now it's been put back down to where it should be. Murdo
commented that if PARAB wanted to get into more detail and depth on
that he can get something together for the next meeting. PARAB
declined the offer and was satisfied with Murdo's explanation.
B. Remote Controlled Cars - a presentation by a group regarding the use
of County property for a remote control car track: (continued)
Mr. Hansen, "What it is basically, is a rapidly growing sport that' s
growing on a major way throughout the United States. Florida
especially! " Mr. Hansen passed out some publications explaining
what they are, and also brought 2 sample models. Mr. Hansen
commented that a group in Coral Springs, Florida worked with their
Parks and Recreation Department to establish a track. Right now
they have a private track, but it's being run to make money, and
Nothing is being put into the facility. He has a list of over 60
names of people who are right now willing and looking forward to
establishing a track and joining a club. They want to establish a
non-profiting club that would be registered with the State. They've
already gone ahead and drawn up rules. They race the cars, have
world Championships, etc. It's a serious sport! The cars are
non-pollutant. They are electrical . To assemble the cars, the kit
alone would cost you about $150 and then the electronics. For under
$500 you could get into the sport. It' s a family oriented sport
with members age 6 to 60. There's a governing body in the United
States called ROAR. If you are a member of that, as a club, you are
covered by a million dollar liability insurance. They are looking
for an area about 250 feet square. It doesn't need to be clean.
All they want is a spot. They will clear it if necessary. They
will get clay and foot the expense for that between club dues and
race fees. All they need from the Parks and Recreation Department
is a spot and some kind of water supply in which to maintain the
track. There's an on-road track version of this. There' s a private
facility for that on Immokalee Road that just opened up. Lights
would be nice later on, but they don't expect that. The club fees
and dues would furnish the electrical side of it. The batteries for
the cars charge right off your car battery, so until we come up with
the funds to have access to an electrical supply, we could keep
using car batteries. Tampa just had a national race, and they
worked with the Parks and Recreation Dept. The world championships
just in Detroit were in a Parks and Recreation facility. Las Vegas
just opened up another one there. The trend right now, in the sport
is to work with the Parks and Recreation Dept. They would like to
work with us as far as trash pick-up, etc. They were looking
towards a $20.00 membership, and a race fee. That would maintain
the track, get us to play, hopefully furnish a computer lap turning
system eventually. At the end of that, if there was anything over,
just to donate whatever remainder there was to whatever the Parks
and Recreation Department would like to donate it to.
4
Ms. Cherryle Thomas commented that the one on Immokalee Highway,
she's seen families with their lawn mowers cutting the grass. Mr.
Hansen commented that it is a family oriented sport. It's a need
for the Community right now. There are a lot of people doing it,
and there are a lot of people doing it.
If Parks and Recreation Department would do this for them, their
time frame on getting the land would be as soon as possible.
Mr. Murdo Smith commented that they are also looking for parking to
be associated with the 250 foot square area. They're looking for
between 50 and 100 parking spaces. The track itself it only 180 by
80.
Ms. Geneva Till asked if we have room for something like this.
Mr. Murdo Smith, commented that the only problem we have now with
the parking spaces at all our parks, as you know at Golden Gate,
parking is a premium. In the Master Plan, it' s not planned for.
Mr. Hansen, commented that they're not looking for prime land, that
it could be just a piece of scrub land just as long as they have
parking next to it. Some of the places that they go to (i .e.
Orlando, Tampa) have given these people and area that's not
improved. One is in the sewage treatment area. It's just an area
with no stumps, but the trees are still there, and people will park
between them. They don't tear up anything. As long as they can get
anywhere close where they can haul their supplies to it. They're
not looking for paved parking. Just as long as you can drive up to
somewhere like that. Basically that' s all they've done. They
haven't given a great deal .
Mr. Murdo Smith, "What we would have to do, if the Board recommended
that we look into getting them some land and so forth, what we'd
probably wind up doing is getting into some kind of lease agreement
with them. We have a lease agreement with Model Aeronautics of
Naples for some property down on Manatee Road. That' s they type of
situation we would have to get into with the Remote Control Car
Club. We would have to go through the County Attorney's office for
the lease.
Since there were no further questions from PARAB, Ms. Cherryle
Thomas suggested to have Murdo look into this and bring it back to
PARAB concerning if there's available space, if it's conducive to
what we want in Parks and Recreation. Bring us an opinion back, and
then we will go from there. Mr. Murdo Smith commented that he will
work with Mr. Hansen, see if we can come up with some spot, and
bring it back to PARAB at the end of this month probably.
5
VI. REPORTS/UPDATES:
C
A. User Fees -- Beaches:
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "The County Commission asked us to put together a
report to them on Beach parking fees and Boat Ramp fees. It was the
idea that I got from the Board that they wanted to do something in a
way of having a consistent policy for beach parking from one end of
the County to the other end for boat ramps. Generally, what we've
had in the past has been a different fee for different parks. Well ,
generally the parking fee is the same, but in some cases we don't
have fees and in some cases we do. The Board is looking for. . . What
are we doing today? What are the option? Make some sort of
decision to make it all consistent. This Executive Summary, in
fact, even when I read it. It's rough reading. You can slice this
a bunch of different way, but what I tried to tell the board is, in
terms of the maintenance costs and the cost to man the parking
booths, the parking fees don't cover our expenses. In total , if you
look at the second paragraph there under Considerations, the
Summary, is that basically we generate $240,000 in revenue against
expenses of $334,000. We're short about $94,000 that' s made up
through Advalorem tax money. Now, that's sort of just been a status
quo. We've always sort of operated that way, and that's not
particularly bad or good. That' s just the breakdown of how revenues
match our expenses today. What I tried to do then on the second
page, is try and outline what I thought are three legitimate options
for the Board to Consider if they want to try and standardize the
Apt parking fee policy."
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "The First Option was to just have non-manned
site. This is primarily a parking meter option where you go to all
the beach parking sites and you meter those sites. Given the total
number of parking spaces that we had, we came up with a capital cost
to do that of $190,000. That is putting parking meters at each of
the sites. There are some possible cheaper alternatives in terms of
machinery that Murdo and Gary have found that are more sort of on
your own, take a ticket and it assigns (I assume that you've paid
the money) you to a spot. It would require somebody in the form of
a Ranger to go by and check and make sure that everyone who's in a
parking space actually has a receipt for the parking space. Those
kinds of things. It's a new enough, that I wasn't comfortable
enough to put it in an Executive Summary. But, we went ahead and
showed $190,000 for capital fees. There revenues however, we would
assume would remain constant. That would be, if you'd go ahead and
kept the parking fee the same as you did, just simply switched from
manned sites to parking meters. Your revenue would stay to $240,000
so you'd actually make a profit going that way of about $33,000 a
year. "
3 L
6
}
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "The Second Option then, was simply to continue
the current method, but increase the parking fee at each of the
sites so that you would offset the deficit that you have in your
spending plan. To do that would mean an increase from $1.00 to
$1 .75. That would produce that additional $106,000 revenue. Again,
if you would remember from the first page you were about $94,000
short. So that covers that shortfall by increasing the fee by 75
cents. I did go ahead and make a recommendation. Instead of being
$1 .75 we go ahead and increase it to $2.00. One, it's easier to
deal with from the parking attendants standpoint, and it creates a
reserve to capital expenditures in the way of benches, and sidewalk
repairs, and boardwalk, and dune crossover kind of repair work that
we currently don't have funding for. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "The Third Option, I call it the Little Hickory
and Bonita Shores alternative. This is simply, don't charge at all .
There is a constituency out there that would really like to see the
Commission eliminate beach parking fees altogether. To do that, it
shows here that you would actually increase the cost to the General
Fund by an additional $115,000 over what you're paying today. What
you need to consider there, which is kind of an oddity, is that
we're currently paying $155,000 to the City of Naples annually for
free beach parking. In total , to have a free beach parking program
for all of the County beaches would only cost us $208,000. So, it's
just slightly more than what we pay the City to have free beach
parking for the County. It's kind of an interesting situation that
we've got, that we actually pay a $150,000 to the City for free
beach parking in the City, yet we'll charge people to park at the
County beaches. It's kind of just an odd situation that we have. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "Of the three, I was smart enough not to make a
recommendation. Generally, the Board is split on these kinds of
things, and I just wanted to provide the options and try and give
them a financial snapshot of what would happen, should they try to
go with any of those three. There's little changes that you could
make to either of them. It all depends on just where you stand. If
you think that beach parking is a General Fund/Property Tax kind of
an item that should be that everyone pays so that everyone can have
free access, then that's the option that you choose. If security is
important, and it's something that you think that the beach parks
should provide a certain amount of security, then a manned site sort
of answers that. But then, the situation in the middle, is one
where you're simply trying to collect fees that match our expenses,
and the easiest way to do that is through parking meters. That's
about the simplest way that I can try to break it down for the
Board. I 'm planning on taking this to the Board the last meeting in
June. Which is the 23rd. I 'm looking to this board for some sort
of recommendation to the County Commission. "
Ms. Geneva Till , "I realize the beaches make my property value. But
I have a pretty strong feeling that people who use beaches should
pay for them. I would lean away from that being general , free for
f everybody. We looked quite a bit into those meters. Remember, Kim
was looking at the Park Master System. I would, right at this
7
}
{
point, I like option number two better. I don't think that people
mind it. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "The third paragraph on the second page, talking
about the revenue and the expenses and the deficit and so forth. I
was curious as to how expenses were broken down. In this other
sheet that we received, Beach & Park Revenue Including Sales Tax, of
course it just shows revenue. It doesn't show expenses. I spoke to
BJ, who talked to Murdo about this, and Murdo said that Tom might be
bringing a breakdown of the expenses with him. That's what I was
looking forward to have, because you can't judge something like this
by just looking at revenue. " Mr. Thomas 011iff, "As part of the
attachments to this Executive Summary, is a Summary of Revenues,
Expenditures, and then there is also a breakdown at each facility."
Murdo passed out copies. Mr. Gil Mueller, "First of all the fact
that the Commissioners elected to give in the next fiscal year
$155,000 to the City of Naples, was their decision. I still , and I
ask this question on any number of occasions. . . What prompted them
to do this? What's the logic behind it? Murdo and a few other
people have tried to explain this to me, and I still don't
understand it. Tom, would you give it a shot? What' s the logic to
paying for some people' s use of the beach to Naples, when others of
the same taxpayers have to pay to use those same beaches out of
their own pocket?" Mr. Thomas 011iff, "I think, in this case it was
a question of equity is all . They don't like seeing unincorporated
citizens having to be treated differently than incorporated
residents. They were getting ready to establish a system, so that
City had free beach parking, County residents paid for beach
parking. So they've become almost a two class system of beach
goers. What they were saying is that the City has decided, through
Advalorem taxes to pay for their portion of beach expenses. County,
if you want to participate in that, here's your bill . If you don't
then we're going to collect that money from the County residents
through parking fees. So, what they're saying, is in the County,
you've decided a different philosophy. You're going to charge
everybody that goes to the beach, and in the City we're going to
decide we're not going to charge anybody. But, if you're going to
go to the City then this is the contribution we're going to need,
otherwise we're going to have to create this two-class system for
beach goers. So, rather than County residents having to pay, City
residents not paying, The BCC thought to keep everything as
equitable as we can, we just pay the bill . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "But
it County residents elect to go to City beaches, as apposed to other
beaches, then I think they should be willing to pay for that. But
that's just my opinion. I don't think it's fair to the taxpayers to
give the City of Naples. . . Anyway, that has somewhat of a bearing
hear on the bottom line of the costs, be that as it may. I guess
about two years ago the meters came up, and I think we got into it
on two or three different occasions. We had quite a bit of material
that Murdo had supplied us. If my memory serves me correctly, I
think that we had recommended that the BCC consider placing meters
in specific places. Places that they chose as somewhat of an
f experimental nature. In other words, no-one seemed to be actually
sure whether meters were a good route to go or not. There was a
8
tremendous amount of gray area, as far as getting involved, and the
initial expenses is considerable. So, I think our recommendation to
the BCC was that they place meters in specific places one of them
was Vanderbilt, if I 'm not mistaken. To how it went. To see
whether there was any degree of vandalism, whether the cost of
collection was excessive, all the other ramifications of having
meters. Obviously, it didn't fly with the BCC, because they didn't
do it. I still kind of cling to that, and think that might not be a
bad idea. I personally, don't think much of meters. I think they
are not desirable from and aesthetic standpoint. I 'm afraid that
vandalism is going to run rampant. But, by the same token, perhaps,
to put meters in given places, places that the County Recreation
Department staff is familiar with, where vandalism might be minimal ,
might be and interesting experiment. Rather than go into the thing
to any appreciable degree in cost. That was our recommendation. As
I said, if my memory serves me correctly."
(end of tape 1, side A)
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Lastly. I think this is lastly, I am very much
opposed to the third alternative. I see no reason why someone who
is enjoying the fine facilities that this department has, whether it
be boat ramps or whether it be beach facilities or whatever,
shouldn't be willing to pay a minimum charge. Certainly I don't
think that anyone contest the fact that charges are minimal . I 'm
generalizing. There might be some charges that some people consider
excessive. I 'm not familiar with. But, I 'm referring primarily to
beach parking, and other services that the Parks and Recreation
Department supplies. Why anybody wouldn't be willing to. . .
Particularly in lieu of the fact, that supposedly statistics
indicate, and I 've heard quotations from 70 to 90 percent out of
County individuals. It just varies, depending upon who's ax is
getting ground. It' s ludicrous, a carload of people pulls into
Tigertail beach to enjoy a whole day at the beach to pay a dollar.
I 'm very much in favor of increasing it to two dollars. But, I 'm
very much against the mind-set that the taxpayers should have to pay
or subsidize through Advalorem taxes, beach access for primarily
out-of-towners. I don't think that's fair to the taxpayers. I
think that to pursue that, would incur the ire of a number of tax
watch organizations and number of other individuals. I really think
that there's only a minimal amount of people. . . A good part of them
are not even in Collier County, don't even live in Collier County
that are pursuing this. I 'll be quiet now. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "The County operates parks, some happen to be
beach parks, some happen to be community parks, some happen to be
maybe regional parks. Why the distinction is made between charging
to park at a beach park, versus a entry charge or a parking charge
at a community park. We allow anybody to come into a community park
and use the tennis courts or any of the racquetball facilities for
free and the County General Fund basically pays for all of the
Maintenance on this park that you see. What's the distinction that
we're making between a beach park and a community park. I don't
know that I have a real good answer for that."
9
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Somehow it doesn't gel , at least in my mind, for
someone to come and use (i .e. Tigertail ) that facility and be
charged $1.00 for a family to enjoy a day at the beach. It seems to
be a lot more justified than someone coming over hear for a
taxpayers association in the evening and have to pay a parking fee.
To me their in the same family but they're not closely related.
Again, like you, I can't explain why. It just doesn't make sense. "
Ms. Geneva Till , "Beach re-nourishment is such an important and
expensive thing that is happening right now. The County parks
aren't really in the center of that now, but who knows when they
could be. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas asked about the demonstration of the Park Master
parking system that was done at a previous PARAB meeting. What it
was, is that you would mark your spaces that you would have at the
various parking lots 1 to 100 or whatever you would have. What
you'd do, is park in the numbered space, and walk up this machine
say at the entrance of this beach facility, and put in your money
and the parking space you had, and it would give you a receipt.
But, there again, you'd have to have someone to go by and check to
make sure that the people were paying. Staff contacted Vancouver
and they have the same type of system.
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Did we put those meters in as a demonstration
to see if it would work?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "No. We have parking meters up at Vanderbilt. We
have approximately 21 ."
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Are we saying they work? Are we saying that
it' s cost effective? Are we saying that our Park Rangers don't have
a lot of responsibility as it relates to these meters?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "They don't right now, because I don't think they
can issue parking citations right now. They would have to go back
to the state to get the authority to issue parking citations. "
Ms. Geneva Till , "How long have they been there, Murdo?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "At Vanderbilt, I think approximately 1984. "
Ms. Geneva Till , "All right. How's vandalism there?"
Mr. Gary Franco, "Vandalism is minimal and revenues generated on a
monthly basis is somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 dollars for
those 21 meters. They are used. It's very good, however, the
Sheriff's Department sees to it that it' s enforced. They'll come
past, and if there' s a car in there that didn't pay, they'll issue a
citation or ticket. They're pretty good about it. That's the whole
secret to the system."
10
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Now, if I can get this right Tom, you're
saying that the BCC would like for us to make a decision on one,
two, or three as our recommendation to them?"
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "I 'd like for you to, because I 've got to take
this back to the Board. They asked for it. It would be nice if we
could have some recommendation from PARAB about where they would
like to see the Board to head. "
Ms. Geneva Till , "I 'm leaning towards two."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I still think that there are some facilities that
would necessitate a parking meter and I 'm sure that staff is more
familiar with those facilities and what they might be than I am.
There are others where I think it would be ludicrous (i .e.
Tigertail ) . I can't imagine after Tigertail , if the parking zones
at Tigertail are expanded, I would presume that it's possible to
double them if a parking system were put in. Not like the one that
they put in, but a practical parking lot possibly to the north. I
assume that the parking spaces would be doubled. I am confident
that to eliminate a guard there, or some supervisor on site would be
detrimental not only from the standpoint of public relations,
because those fellows do perform that service there' s no question
about it. But, from a standpoint of vandalism. Vandalism has been
a problem down there, I guess it always has been. It was
particularly bad this past year, I understand. Without someone on
site, at a beach facility like Tigertail to watch things, I think
that you would not only have parking mayhem down there, you'd have a
considerable amount of vandalism, if the lot were unmanned. I 'm
very much in favor of keeping a guard there. If the Board were to
consider a suggestion of using certain facilities as somewhat of an
experiment as far as parking meters are concerned, I think that
Tigertail would be the last place they would want to put them.
That' s my opinion. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Currently we have manned each parking access at
Vanderbilt, Clam Pass, and Tigertail . Vanderbilt has 125 spaces,
Clam Pass has 180, and Tigertail has 180 give or take a few. That's
what we basically figure it on. I agree with Gil . At Tigertail , it
might be a mess during the Tourist Season if you didn't have any
Attendants there, or a supervisor there to control the parking out
front, because it gets jammed at 10:00 a.m. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "That's the other thing that you can certainly
do. The BCC has asked for us to provide them some alternative for
having a consistent policy across the County. But, if you, because
you have a little better knowledge about the actual different beach
parks don't feel that you can have a consistent policy across where
Tigertail needs to be manned, while Vanderbilt and Clam Pass and
some others can be metered and that's the recommendation, then
that's fine. I can take that to the BCC as well . "
11
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think the parks vary so much in not only in
their geographics, the type of community they're in, I don't think
that you can just cart blanche blanket it with the same sort of
approach. It requires a little different tactic."
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Well , how about Clam Pass? Do we have
meters?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "No. We have 4 part-time employees. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "And Tigertail we have manned. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "The only place we have meters currently is at
Vanderbilt. It's only on the road. The parking lot is manned. The
places where we don't have any parking meters right now, or any
manned facility is our Barefoot Beach Preserve, Barefoot Beach,
North Gulf Shore Boulevard, and of course some our boat ramps do not
have any fees associated with them also. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Well , it looks like we can't put everybody in
the same bowl . "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well if Tom could possibly. . . "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, " . . .write our request into this, they way we
giving it. You know, we don't think that Tigertail should be
included, whatever Gil makes his motion."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I 'm just going to throw this back at the staff,
and at Tom, to see what they think of this idea and whether they
think it makes sense because Murdo and Gary and Tom and the rest of
the folks there on staff know each site there intricately and they
they know what type of controls are applicable to each individual
site far better than we do. If we could recommend to the BCC, or
suggest to the BCC that they would allow the staff to perhaps
expand on the parking meter aspect of this and try it in certain
areas to see how it flies, to see what the problems are, how it
seems to work out, and then if it's successful , if it seems to go
well , perhaps expand it to other facilities. "
Ms. Geneva Till , "Well , that's really what number two says."
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Right! "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's the one that I 'm in favor of incidentally."
Ms. Geneva Till , ". . .to include the manning of the larger parks and
metering those smaller parks. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "I 'm for number two on my personal judgment of
the three. "
12
Mr. Gil Mueller, "What's your thinking on that Murdo? Don't you
think that the application of these things depends pretty much on
the individual site, and the ramifications that are involved in each
individual site?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. Like right now we have facilities to guard
houses at those three locations. We have a couple where we don't
have any facilities there (i .e. Barefoot Beach, and Barefoot Beach
Preserve) . We also don't have any facilities really at Gulf Shore
Boulevard North as far as a collection booth, or some type of
facility like that. I don't know if you would like to try parking
meters at Barefoot Beach, or Vanderbilt. At Vanderbilt we have a
manned station there already. So, I guess I would suggest not
putting them at the manned stations right away. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "I have a problem in spending money for a meter
to see it they work or not. If somebody was giving them to you for
free to let us have a 108 day approval on them. That would be fine.
Supposed we put them in there and they don't work, and we spent this
money. We all know we have been cut severely with budget. So we're
not here to disperse money to let them ride, and that's my only
means of putting meters in other places. If staff can come up with
somebody who is favorable and wants to put those meters in on a
demonstration basis."
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "One of the options that you've got, is those
places where you don't have parking at all , no fees today. By
installing meters you end up with nothing but revenue, no expenses."
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "You mean like Bayshore and 951 boat ramps where
we could conceivably use meters?"
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "Yes. That' s pretty much what that second option
is. Basically you increase the parking fee at all of those sites
that are manned, leave the people there. At those other sites that
are smaller and don't have Parking Attendants, you install meters,
but make sure the fee is up to $2.00 a day."
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "So we still have to spend money. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "You have to spend some money. You'll end up
making that money back. "
It was suggested that the Sheriff's Department will become involved
with the metering option.
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I realize the aesthetics aren't a primary factor.
Although it would seem that in the Parks and Recreation part of the
County aesthetics would be a factor, because that's what it's all
about to some degree. I personally think that meters are
detrimental to the esthetic. I can't imagine for example, rows and
rows of meters up at that beautiful Lely Barefoot Beach Park and I
can't imagine them at Tigertail either. I think they're unsightly.
As I said, that's not a primary consideration, I guess. "
13
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "We need to come up with some kind of consensus
for a recommendation for Tom. Geneva, you're for number two?"
Ms. Geneva Till , "Yes"
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Gil , are you for number two?"
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , if number two. . . I guess Tom or Murdo
commented that they felt that my suggestion was pretty much included
in number two. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "Well , in terms of Tigertail , what it would do
with number two is we'd continue to have the facility manned all the
hours that the park is open and it would increase the parking fee
from one to two dollars per day."
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Can you live with that Gil?"
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , I think Tigertail would be the last place
that you'd want to put a bunch of meters."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think also, that we'd have to mention too that
the Beach Parking Permit would also still be available at our
Department. Right now it' s $20.00 per year. I don't know if you'd
want to increase that or not. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "What do they do in Naples, Murdo?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "The permits are free. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Ours used to be 30 dollars."
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "We didn't sell too many of those. Then we put
them on sale for 20."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "You (Geneva) asked before about who picks up the
money, and you (Tom) said that the Sheriff's Department"
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "I thought that she was talking about fines. In
that case for people that were illegally parked at the meters. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Our Rangers can't write out a ticket?"
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "No. They don't have police powers."
Mr. Gary Franco, "They can issue citations, however, what we issue
right now, is a notice to appear, and you can't put a notice to
appear on a car. A notice appear means that you have to appear in a
court room. "
14
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I don't think that's an important factor anyway,
because most of them simply tear up the ticket and throw it on the
ground before they anyway it seems. Then I 'd like to ask the
question, who actually picks up the money? I 'm sure you've taken
that into consideration?"
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "We have, but I 'm not real happy with the answer
with that I 've got right now. Right now, Finance is telling us,
they would prefer having two people so that there's a check and
balance of people handling cash. So when there's somebody handling
the cash, there' s somebody else who's making sure that they're not
pocketing some of that cash. That's a finance issue. I 'm not sure
that the cost benefit's not going to kill you on that. So, I want
to try to see if there's not a way that we can come up with
something that's either a non hands on cash method where you can
actually put something up to the machine and the cash goes directly
in there and hands don't ever get to touch it. We'd probably use
our existing Ranger, since I don't think that you really have to
empty meters every day. The Rangers in their regular rounds
probably would do that. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Maybe I 'm being naive, but I don't think that
would present a problem. I would trust somebody to do that."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "It does mount up, if you think about it, after
awhile. That is Finance's one check and balance to make sure. Like
the audit that you reviewed last time. That was one of the items
previously that they have discussed with us about taking the money
out of the meters at Vanderbilt. We should have two people do it at
all times. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "We'll do something to make sure there's some
integrity on who handles the money. If there's a way that I can do
it without two full people, I 'll try and do that. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "What do you think of experimenting with meter in a
given area? I 'm talking about a typical facility where you would
get a good analysis and an honest appraisal of how meters really
would work. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Well , the one thing I could tell you Gil , is the
City of Naples has quite a few meters and I think they have 900 and
they seem to do very well with the City. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "I guess the first question would be, what are
you trying to find out? I think with meters you know certain
things. You're going to have a certain amount of vandalism, there's
going to be a certain cost to collect the money there, and there's
going to be a certain administrative headache in chasing people who
get tickets and have to pay their fines. But, others than that, I
think you're going to have revenue, and you're not going to have
people expenses associated with it. You're also not going to have
security. That's the whole thing. That's what you get with parking
meters. "
15
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Tom, I think it's the consensus of the Board
to let it show in the minutes that Geneva, Gil , and myself like out
of the three, number two as a recommendation. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "If this is to be in the form of a motion, if you
want something verbatim, we can do that, but I think Mrs. Thomas
pretty much capsulized. I 'd kind of like to again, for the staff to
recommend to the BCC to consider the experimental aspect of this.
To see if it really works. It might be a winner. We might want to
do it all over, who knows. But then again, by the same token, it
might be a disaster. So, why not just go into it .lust a little bit
at first. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Well , we only basically have a couple of places
where we can go into it, where we have unmanned booths. Lely
Barefoot and Barefoot Beach Preserve. Barefoot Beach has 100
parking and the Preserve has 67 spaces right now with another 44
being planned for this year. Then we've got a small area at North
Gulf Shore for 26. We could try it at the boat ramps. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "My only suggestion is, if we're going to do it
on a trial basis, let's not do it up at Barefoot Beach first. I 'll
incorporate that into the Executive Summary then. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "That would be fine. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "We also submitted into your package for last time,
User Fees that we have at each of our Park Facilities (i .e.
Community Centers) . We weren't going to really discuss it at the
last meeting because in our Audit we were supposed to address some
fee issues. What I wanted to do is give you some time to look at
those to sort of get familiar with them so possibly at the next
meeting we could put that as one of the main topics to discuss. I
think on the Audit that we have three items that we have to go back
to the BCC for clarification on fee structures. One was a fee
policy for instructional classes, standardization throughout the
County, and facility rental fees. We want to change those around a
little bit, and it has to go back to the BCC for approval . "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "OK. So at our next meeting, you want to put
that on our Reports?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. I would like to have that as one of the New
Business/Presentations and discuss that at that time, because I know
Mr. 011iff is waiting for me to get those three items back so that
the BCC can approve the resolutions. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "Beyond that even, I think the Audit talked about
how we develop our overhead charges for recreational programs and
things. Some of that is actually going to take a little work to
come up with what is the actual cost to provide recreational
programs, what should the overhead fee be. It may not be just a one
meeting kind of an item. In fact, I 've told the Board in their
strategic planning, is this going to be one of the major items that
16
this Division is going to try to capture this year and that's going
to be the whole fee structure in Parks and Recreation. Starting
with this one, the Beach & Water fees and then we move right into
Recreational side, we'll probably end up doing Athletics as well .
So, these things will be popping up on your Agendas now for the next
couple of meetings. "
It was decided that we're not going to have a PARAB meeting in July,
1992.
(3:25 p.m.)
B. Safe Swimming Area at Tigertail Beach
Mr. Murdo Smith updated. We have received the affidavit signed by
the County Commission. Now we have to send that to the State, and
then they'll be issuing us the approval to install the buoys at the
Tigertail Beach area. Actually, we're sending it to Mark Miller, in
Ft. Myers, and we should have the permit rather shortly.
C. Budget - Program Priorities:
Staff has still not yet discussed that with the BCC, however at our
June 19 meeting when we review the budget, the Board will discuss it
at that time.
D. Registration Forms - Hold Harmless Clause:
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Mr. Mueller I believe I put in your package a
response from the County Attorney. Is there anything else that you
want me to clarify?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "No. The only reason I
mentioned that Murdo, is because there were quite a few negative
comments about this." When there is a transaction involving money,
they are always used. It's basically a reservation form. Whenever
any reserves a facility, they fill that form out.
E. Picnic Tables for Immokalee:
We are waiting for receipt of those picnic tables. We anticipate it
within the next two or three weeks.
Ms. Cherryle Thomas commented that she has been receiving numerous
complaints about no electricity for the vendor stands, and requested
staff to look into redoing that.
The Park Maintenance section is out in Immokalee doing some repairs
to the softball field. They're putting up some wind screening, they
are going to be replacing the flag, we're going to put new clay in.
We issued the Sheriff out there keys, like you had requested.
Drinking fountains are going to be replaced.
17
Ms. Cherryle Thomas requested a portable phone for Immokalee
Community Park. She also commented that was high on Sheriff
Saunders list, that they thought they needed a portable phone.
Staff will check into it further.
Ms. Geneva Till commented that she talked to Commissioner Goodnight
and she said that the people around Big Cypress would like to have
some kind of recreation facilities. Mr. Thomas 011iff commented
that we are doing two things out there. The GAC Land Trust Group
out there is trying to decide how to sell the land and spend the
money, and they want Parks & Recreation to build a Community Park in
the estates. GAC is pursuing now, some tracts of land there that
are of the size 25-35 acres that could accommodate and try to find
one that all the people are willing to sell because they don't have
condemnation abilities. They've got to try and find land owners
that are willing to sell . Staff gave them sort of a price list on
how much it would cost to build certain things on a park, and we're
waiting now to hear back from them. Also, Mr. Thomas 011iff stated
that he talked to Commissioner Goodnight about the Big Cypress
School this morning, and she indicated that she wanted us to pursue
some sort of Joint Use Agreement with the School so we could have
somebody go by and open up the fence after the school is closed and
close it at a certain time so the residents out there can go use the
school facilities even after the school is closed and on weekends.
Staff will have to meet with the Principal and then the School
Board. Ms. Geneva Till commented that they didn't want the YMCA
swimming pool , because they'd have to pay to use it. But this short
of thing would be a use for that, and perhaps you could get the
people to agree to a Park. Ms. Cherryle Thomas commented that she
was told that there is a group that will be asking to appear before
PARAB on that area, when school gets out. That we could hear there
concerns at that time.
Mr. Murdo Smith commented that also in the budget for this year in
Immokalee, they have also requested a Park Ranger, which is an
expanded service. The BCC has to approve that at the June 19 9:00
to 10:30 a.m.
F. Immokalee Community Park Amphitheater Renovation:
Mr. Gary Franco commented, that the pre-bid conference is set for
June 6 in Immokalee at the Amphitheater. That means that the award
or the bid tabulations will be held on June 22, and then hopefully
some time very shortly we'd award a Contract.
G. Reorganization of Parks and Recreation positions:
As you know three positions in our Department were eliminated. The
three positions were Recreation Superintendent, the Beach and Water
Supervisor, and the Racquet Sports Supervisor. Of those three
positions, the people who were in those positions, we have worked
out something with them that they will be remaining with the
Department. There is still one position. Two of the three are
18
still with our Department and will remain in a different position,
however we still have one that we have to locate a position for.
So, Mary Ellen will be with us, and so will Ed Torroni .
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "I guess that Murdo's already told you that we've
already hired the new Parks and Recreation Director. I wish I 'd
been able to time his arrival with meetings of yours so that you
could have met him. But, you will . He should be here the June 15.
As he comes, my way of saying thank you to these guys. Because they
did a heck of a job over the course of a year to holding up the
Department without a Director. Going through Reorganizations and a
lot of things. They had no Division Administrator at the time
either. The Department, even though they don't think so, got a lot
done over the course of the year. If you look, the facilities look
as good as they have ever. The recreational programs, even though
the budgets have been gouged. The programs that we do offer are as
good as anywhere you'll go in the state and find. I think it's a
result of the people who work 60 and 80 hours a week. Sometimes
doing whatever it takes to keep the program running. I think we
almost killed Jim Thomas in the process. " Ms. Geneva Till , "Well ,
I 'm repeating myself now Tom, but this is for you. We've had more,
better, and complete information with these people aboard than we
did when we had the other additional people. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff also commented that we've made a recommendation
for the person for Frank E. Mackle Jr. Community Park this facility.
We also had filled the Ranger's position here on Marco. The person
has also moved from in-house. So we've got now another Ranger
vacancy, which we'll hopefully fill within the next couple of weeks
as well . All of our Summer inters are filled. The Community Center
Aides in East Naples are filled. So as far as the positions that we
have, we're almost full staff with the exception of the Assistants
to the Community park which have never been filled. We put in a
request for two of the five and we understand that we're still under
a freeze, but these are our highest priority positions, if we get
the opportunity to fill those. Those were Frank E. Mackle Jr.
Community Park and Veterans Community Park. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "What were Bob Legler's responsibilities?" Mr.
Murdo Smith, "He was our Beach & Water Supervisor, and was in charge
of all the Beach & Water sites throughout the County, the parking
attendants, and the concessionaires also. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "How
will those things be covered, and are they being covered?" Mr.
Thomas 011iff, "Between Nan in the Ranger side and just everybody
trying to absorb a little bit of the responsibility across the
board, I think that's just generally what's going to have to happen.
Now you're going to have a little less supervision. Just pure and
simple, we're going to have to do with a little less. Hopefully the
employees that we have are good enough so that we don't have to
supervise them as much. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "We also filled the Fiscal Clerk' s position. So,
we should have somebody on board in about a week. "
19
i
Mr. Murdo Smith, "We're also possibly looking for a Park Program
Leader in Immokalee. We're interviewing right now. "
H. Internal Audit Update:
Basically the three items the Internal Audit said that we needed to
do was in the fee policy going back to the Board. What we would
like to do, is over the next couple of meetings go through that and
discuss that with you. So, I think we'll be able to discuss that
while we're going through the fee process. Mr. Thomas 011iff, "Just
so you know too. I 've been in Departments throughout the County as
they've been audited, and this was a good audit. " This was about
the third one that we've had. Mr. Thomas 011iff, "If that's all the
auditor could find for a Department that does as much fee collection
as this one does, their doing a heck of a job. Generally they're
gutting the Departments and making them revise all their processes
and procedures. They had very little to say. They said basically
we do things right, you just need to go to the Board and have them
bless the way you do them. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "That was those three
items on the fee policy of how we charge for programs and rentals of
facilities and so forth. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. I 'm going to make
a statement. I 'm happy to see the corrective action regarding
accurate reporting of revenues that's finally been inaugurated.
I 've brought this subject up many many times for the past four
years. After I have noticed questionable handling at Caxambas Pass,
sport equipment concessionaire at Tigertail , and Clam Pass. So,
I 'm glad that this audit I think inspired this. Because it can't
help but bring more revenue in. And I really hate to see those guys
get away with it. " Mr. Gary Franco, "Basically they were instructed
to issue receipts for every transaction, and have grand total
capabilities. Those type of things and match gross revenue receipts
on a monthly basis. So, they're in compliance now. "
I. Conklin Point Boat Ramp:
This is just an update on how we're doing with the plans. Monday,
we had our 70 percent review with the Engineers. We're 70 percent
complete. We had some questions on some of the electrical , but
basically the buildings, the location of the ramp, and everything
else is set. We're just reviewing some of the underground now.
But, 70 percent of the plans are complete. We should be getting
that back within the next month on a final review. We also have
sent away a second response to the state for questions that they had
asked about the boaters registration funds that we would like to use
to build this facility. As we have said before, we're hoping to get
about 505,000 dollars to offset the cost of this park. The land's
cleared, and that' s about it. We're 70% along with the designs, so
within the next month we should have 100% design and then we'll be
putting it out for bid to construct it at that point. Mr. Thomas
011iff, "We're also trying to cut the agreement with the Coast Guard
on that before we go to bid on that thing, because the Coast Guard
is a tenant of the building that we're building there. Before we
actually start to build a building with the Coast Guard in it, we
want to make sure we have an agreement with them. "
20
J. Clam Pass Park Utilities:
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "This Tuesday there is an Executive Summary in
front of the County Commission which provides for them a couple of
options to provide water, electricity, and telephone to the end of
Clam Pass Park again. Just because of the timing of this meeting, I
couldn't run that by this board first, but the County Commission's
asked for this report as quick as we can get it done. Primarily
because the Fire Department is still continuing to put a little
pressure on us. As you recall C0'd as yet. After two years of that
second pod being built there. The options that we've got are
generally running things down the Boardwalk where the old drawbridge
was. Those waters used to be called navigable waterways. We
understand now, that distinction is probably going to be lifted from
that water and we can eliminate the need to have that drawbridge
there anymore. What they're trying to do is just call it basically
a flushing system that is not navigable. Which means then, that all
of this effort and exercise for the last four or five years has been
a waste of time and that we run water, electricity, and whatever we
want to down the actual boardwalk itself. That drawbridge has never
been opened for sailboat traffic. It has been opened once annually
for a maintenance opening to make sure that it still works. But,
the public has never used it. So, basically they have cost us that
many years and that amount of dollars in pursuing options down the
beach in Engineering fees and things for basically a worthless
effort. But, we hope we're in a position now to be able to go back
down the boardwalk running some water from the County's water line,
some electricity which we are going to size to meet the existing pod
and another third pod of the same type of facility that's there.
We're not trying to build and electrical system that will handle a
250 seat restaurant. What we're trying to do, is handle what's
there, and a little bit more. Because we don't know of any
proposals out there right now to do anything other than that, so
we're just building to what we think should be built out there. All
of those options are less than about $280,000. There are four
different scenarios they can choose, but each of those is less than
280,000 depending upon which way the Board wants to go. Again, by
contract, the Registry has to pay for 50 percent of the cost of
that, and the County currently has in it's budget 156,00 dollars.
So the funds are all in place to do the project whichever way the
Board decides. There's some jack and bore work to be done, and it's
a real expensive project just going down a boardwalk that is 3,000
feet long is feat in itself. To try to salt-water protect all the
lines and things. But hopefully, according to Jerry Neal in Capital
projects, that permit's in hand, to be ready to construct in
December if the Board makes a decision. "
K. Pools:
Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "We're getting towards the end of the design
phase of the pool that's going to be located in Golden Gate
Community Park. What we have is an eight lane, 25 meter, 25 yard
swimming pool with an activity pool that's going to be zero to 18
inches in depth for the smaller kids. We also have a slide pool , a
double loop slide with a definite drop pool separate from the other
21
two. We've gone and gotten designs on the Bath Houses, the
Equipment Room. I 've been having probably three meetings a week on
the types of equipment, the types of concessionaire equipment, the
chairs, everything you can possibly think of. Murdo and I and the
design team probably meet once every two weeks to further the
designs and figure out interiors, exteriors, material , landscaping,
that kind of stuff. We're looking for a final by the end of June.
We're looking to go out to bid sometime in July and awarding the
contract and starting of the pool sometime in September. "
Ms. Geneva Till , "Are you planning to have family memberships?"
Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, "We've worked out. . . Proposed, pursuant to
the approval of the BCC fees for single families, children, seniors,
passes, instructional lessons, various other programs. But we will
bring that here first before we go to the BCC for approval . " Mr.
Murdo Smith, "What we can probably also do, is at the next meeting,
bring the design along. "
L. Vanderbilt Beach Accesses & Parking:
We've basically started into the Phase II, putting in some landscap-
ing and removing some exotics up there. The Phase II is the
complete landscaping of the turn-around. We've just started to get
in the process (i .e. getting some picnic tables, etc.) . This is
just on-going at the present time.
M. 951 Boat Ramp Parking:
Mr. Murdo Smith, "951 Boat Ramp, I think Tom had discussed that at
the last meeting about the possibility of looking at Goodland
Marina, at another additional site. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "We have included that as part of the Capital
Budget for the BCC's consideration rather than just taking a
separate item to them. Just as a budget they will see the total
cost for both land purchase and construction for that. We just
frankly don't have the cash for the entire project, so we're showing
the land purchase only. The land itself is valued at 1 million
dollars. They've also talked about the idea of swapping some land
that the County owns up on Bluebill Avenue for some of that property
there on Goodland. That will be a BCC decision when it comes down
to the budget. It's and ideal location, but it's a pretty hefty
price tag as well . We've got some boat ramp requirements in the
Growth Management plan. Whether the Board's willing to spend that
kind of money for boat ramps or not, I don't know. "
N. Collier Bonita Beach Park Project:
It was agreed to take this issue off the agenda.
22
0. Barefoot Beach Preserve:
The Bath House is open. It opened May 26. We didn't have a ribbon
cutting, just because we felt it would look like a ribbon cutting
for a restroom. The road extending south from that Bath House is
fenced off. That's the Dune restoration work that's going on, and
also the Boardwalk construction. It's on track now, in fact we
could use some of that Boardwalk that McGovern has built. Sometime
in July we are supposed to have the whole thing complete.
Mr. Gil Mueller asked when staff thought this facility will be
completed to the extent that we can justify charging a fee to get
into that park like we do in all the rest of the parks. Staff
commented that we're in the process right now of designing and
putting out for bid, and additional 44 parking spaces up there.
There was a third parking lot that was never built in the first
phase. It is now going out for bid. Mr. Gil Mueller, "Why would it
be necessary to wait until this additional parking is available to
begin to charge a fee to get into that park?" Mr. Thomas 011iff,
"It wouldn't. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "What is the staff and your
thinking Tom, as far as getting that going is concerned? It just
seems as though that could bring in some additional revenue and
solve some of our monetary problems and in a way, other parks are
subsidizing it, which doesn't seem fair. I think I 'm on the right
track there. " Mr. Thomas 011iff, "No that's correct, and if you
would like as part of that fee item for beach & ramp fees for us to
make a recommendation that also be included as a fee charged beach
park, whether it be manned or metered, we can sure do that. " Mr.
Gil Mueller, "You're referring to the Executive Summary that you
presume is going to come before the BCC on June 23rd?" Mr. Thomas
011iff, "Yes" Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. Then I would like to make a
motion to that effect then, that you include in your Executive
Summary that the BCC consider inaugurating a fee in as much as the
facilities are pretty much available now, which was, I understand
the reason that nothing was done prior to this until we can justify
it that we couldn't start to charge a fee. That's going to be a
problem though, isn't it? Trying to work that out with Lely.
That's going to be a tough one. Don't you think?" Mr. Thomas
011iff, "I 'm not sure that it wouldn't be easier in terms of Lely's
perspective than what's happening today. If you're charging a fee,
then you know how many cars you've got in, how many spaces you've
got available, and you've got a lot better control I think than what
we have today. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Rather than letting a lot of
people simply pass through and possibly not having the parking for
them and driving around. Yes. That's a good point! Well , at any
rate put that in the form of a motion. Put a period just prior to
my other comment about it being a problem. I 'd like to include
that. Is there a second?" Ms. Geneva Till seconded the motion, and
it passed 3-0.
P. Collier County Racquet Club:
The Insurance and the Bonding and all those papers have been signed
by the Contractor. They were submitted to purchasing this week.
Purchasing submitted and approved. Risk Management has since sent
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them in to the County Attorney's office. We should be having them
approved in the next day or so. Tom Donnegan and I are looking for
a Pre-Construction meeting some time in the beginning of next week
to go ahead and get started with the Tennis Courts at the Racquet
Club. Mr. Gil Mueller commented that he was really pleased to hear
that there is some progress being made on that.
VII. NEW BUSINESS:
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "I have two items. One, is that Capital Projects is
working on another Executive Summary as a request of the Board which is
part of the expansion of Tigertail Parking lot. What are the options in
that? Basically, there are three they way we look it. (1) There is a
very difficult to obtain permit for an expansion on the existing
property which is in the middle of a wetland area. There is a little
bit of an upland in the middle of all the Mangroves. We can try to get
a permit to carve a driveway over there. Very, very difficult process.
It took staff three years to get the permit for the expansion for that
park. Very, very tough permit to get. (2) To purchase some of the
residential lots which fronts that park along Spinnaker Road. They had
talked about that before, some of the home owners along Spinnaker Road
were apposed to the idea of the increased traffic or the look that it
would add to their neighborhood. But that is and option. It probably
would be cheaper and much easier to permit option because most of those
lots are already cleared and have no mangrove problems at all on them.
For location they are right there at the park. There will be an
attachment showing what is for sale, what is the asking price, what is
the appraised value of those, and how much square footage of land it
would take to equal the amount of parking that you could put on the site
that we currently have. We thought we can get another 120 parking
spaces on the upland area inside that mangrove and how many lots would
it take to equal 120 parking spaces I don't know yet. " Mr. Gil Mueller
commented that there would be considerable local opposition to that. Mr.
Thomas 011iff , "(3) The third option is one that I like even less.
It ' s called lot K. I 'm not sure of the exact location, but it's about
1/4 of a mile away from Tigertail . The idea was to create a parking lot
there. And to try either work out some form of trolley transportation
with the existing transportation companies on the island or develop some
sort of transportation program on our own to shuttle people back and
forth from that parking lot to Tigertail . Just for shear logistics I
think you see why that's probably my least favorite idea followed very
closely by wetland permits for expansion inside of existing Tigertail .
All three of the options are difficult, and they've got a down side to
each of them. But those are the options that the Board will get, and
they'll also get some price tags for each. Before the item goes to the
Board, as soon as the Executive Summary is done, it should be within the
next day or two, I will send you a copy of it, just so you can see it.
If you've got some comments that you want to make about that Executive
Summary, call Murdo or myself and just let us know. Gil , I 'm sure
you 're going to be interested, and you'll probably want to attend. " Mr.
Gil Mueller, "Dick Shanahan asked me to speak before the board that, and
I recommended that they get this thing off the ground just as soon as
possible, because I remember like Murdo, that the problems that came up
24
when they put in the parking lot originally. The DER, the DNR, and the
DAN. It took three years. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "And even then, it still
wasn't paved. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "But, there's ample land to do it in
the interior as apposed to along Spinnaker. But, I think it would just
take an awful long time. It's going to be necessary though." Mr.
Thomas 011iff, "That will be on the Agenda the 16-Jun-1992. " Mr. Murdo
Smith, "Any comments. When would you like those back by, Tom?" Mr.
Thomas 011iff, "Any comments that you would have to make would probably
be needed to be made by that Friday, the 12-Jun-1992 if I 'm going to be
able to at least know what they are so that I can forward those on to
the Board. "
Mr. Thomas 011iff, "The other item that I have is just a note to you
that Murdo and I put together the Capital Budget for the Parks program
based on the Growth Management Plan. But, both of us realized, in
putting that plan together that there was some things that we'd like to
change. I 'm not sure, in all of the budgets that we have, that we're
spending the money that we have collected in Impact Fees in other places
where you get the most bang for the public's buck in those budgets. I
think they were originally drawn up as a very good ideas behind them. I
just think over five years since that plan was adopted, things have
changed. Especially in some of the places (i .e. Immokalee, Golden Gate
Estates) . I think originally there was not a Community Park put there,
because it was always intended to have a Regional Park somewhere in the
Estates area. Because the Board made some changes, we're not going to
build a Regional Park for years, so there is no close Community Park to
the Golden Gate Estates area, even though it's probably the fastest
growing area in all of Collier County. Just some small changes like
that. We're going to be working on some amended plan ideas. But, we're
going to be looking at this board to be the one who tells whether or not
where we think we ought to be spending the money to make some sense. We
are going to try to come back and say, there's a big demand for Soccer
or Baseball and softball fields or some of those kinds of things in each
of your respective areas. Hopefully you can give us some kind of
feedback, so we can take that back to the BCC and say we'd like to amend
an entire Growth Management Plan to like this and show them the
changes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "We'll certainly do our best. " Ms. Cherryle
Thomas, "Maybe we should even put that on requests for discussion so
that we stay on target with each area. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "It's going to be more important to have a full
contingency here as far as the Board Members are concerned. " Ms. Geneva
Till , "You know, when people don't come, what would be the possibility
of having more than five. If two are always going to be gone. We only
have three minds. " Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "I think we got into that
before and everybody says that it would be too much of a hassle to add
two or more. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "It's based on the districts. " Ms.
Cherryle Thomas, "We'll then you'd have to have a representative from
each one of us, so it would have to be five more." Mr. Murdo Smith, "I
think that we've been pretty good in the past few months with the new
members. I know Mr. Blackford is out of town on business, so he had
called and told us that he couldn't make it. Mr. Clendenon's sick
today. So, hopefully at the next meeting we'll at least have four
members. "
25
Mr. Murdo Smith, "With the new Director coming in, I 'd just like to kind
of take the opportunity to thank you all for your help and support in
the past year and a half. I 'd like to thank staff for the great job
that they did keeping the Department going. I 'd like to thank Tom and
everybody else for all their support. It's been an interesting year and
a half." Mr. Gil Mueller, "Murdo, Mrs. Till said it very appropriately.
We've had such tremendous cooperation from you and the rest of your
staff this past 18 months. Far be it for me to say that we didn't even
miss a Director. "
VIII. ADJOURNMENT:
Mr. Gil Mueller motioned to adjourn the meeting at 4:12 p.m. Ms. Geneva
Till seconded, and the motion passed with a 3-0 vote.
MS:rtd:004474
26
MEMORANDUM
TO: PARAB Members
FROM: Murdo Smith, Acting Parks and Recreation Director
DATE: June 2 , 1992
RE: Executive Summary - Beach and Water Facilities
Budget Policies for FY 92/93 Budget
Attached is an Executive Summary that Mr. 011iff, Public Services
Administrator, will be discussing during the User Fee agenda
item at the PARAB meeting to be held tomorrow, June 3rd.
MS/bj