Minutes 10/30/1991 S Parks & Recreation
Advisory Board
(PARAB )
Minutes
October 30 , 1991
SPECIAL MEETING
MINUTES
PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office
Naples, Florida
Wednesday, October 30, 1991
PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman
Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice Chairman
Ms. Geneva Till
Mr. William Clendenon
Ms. Cherryle Thomas
I. CALL TO ORDER:
The meeting was called to order at 2:08 p.m.
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG:
III. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS:
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: This is a special meeting called for the purpose of
discussion of a draft of the Land Use/Management Plan for the Barefoot
Beach Preserve. We have a presentation by staff. Would you like to
start with the Staff Presentation please.
A. DISCUSSION OF DRAFT LAND USE/MANAGEMENT PLAN FOR THE BAREFOOT BEACH
PRESERVE:
MR. MURDO SMITH: First I'd like to recognize a couple of people in
the audience. We have the County Manager, Mr. Neil Dorrill; Mrs.
Martha Skinner, the Acting Public Service Administrator; and Mr.
Ladd Ryziw from the Transportation Department. Chairman Kobza and
Board Members, our Department would like to present today for your
review, the first draft of the Land Management Plan for the property
leased from the State located directly south of the County's
Barefoot Beach Preserve. This property, leased from the state, is
approximately 156 acres, and has 5,000 lineal feet of beach. The
lease is for 50 years. The Land Management Plan is a requirement by
the state, and a draft must be submitted to the State for their
review by the end of November, 1991. Our staff, and Coastal
Engineering Consultants have prepared a draft. At this time I would
like to have staff present the Draft Management Plan for your
review. This presentation will take approximately twenty (20)
minutes, and then we could have discussion from the Board.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Good Afternoon Mr. Chairman and members of the
Parks and Recreation Advisory Board. My name is Gary Franco, I'm
the Collier County Parks Superintendent. The item listed on the
Agenda today, is the Conceptual Land Use/Management Plan for
Barefoot Beach Preserve. Barefoot Beach Preserve is located in
Northwestern Collier County, and is one of the few remaining
undeveloped barrier Islands in the the State, and Southwest Florida.
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It is bounded on the north by the Lely P.U.D. , to the west by the Gulf of
Mexico, to the south by Wiggins Pass and Delnor-Wiggins State Recreation area,
tiw and to the east by the tidal creeks and backwater swamp area. Let me give you
a brief history of the preserve. The County section encompasses 186 acres of
environmentally sensitive lands. It was purchased in 1987 from the Lely
Corporation for 3.1 million dollars. Located just to the south of that is the
leased portion of the preserve, and that encompasses 156 acres. Prior to
1972, this area was targeted for development. However, due to the lack of
Utilities, development did not occur. In 1972, and in subsequent years, the
State began to acquire parcels of that land under the environmentally
endangered lands act.
In 1990, the State and County entered into an Agreement whereas the
County could use this portion of land for 50 years. It is a Lease Agreement,
and in lieu of that developed a Conceptual Land Management Plan. Phase I
construction is complete. This is a paved parking area existing of 67 spaces,
and 42 spaces off the road parking. We also have three dune walkovers that
provide access to the beach.
The key management element or the key plan for the Management Plan is (1)
Passive Recreation, and (2) Preservation.
This whole area is invaded by exotics. Thus, we have a development plan
to remove the exotics from this area. There are basically five ecological or
environmentally zones located within the preserve. They are: (1) Pioneer
Zone, (2) Fore Dune, (3) Coastal Strand, (4) The Maritime Hammock, and (5) the
Backwater Tidal Area. What I'd like to do now, is have Ranger Klein, she is a
Park Supervisor, make a short slide presentation depicting these zones and the
Wildlife within those communities.
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: Good Afternoon Chairman, and members of the Parks and
Recreation Advisory Board. My name is Nan Klein, I'm the Park Ranger
Supervisor for the Collier County Parks and Recreation Department.
The Collier County Parks and Recreation Department is pleased and proud
to manage Barefoot Beach Preserve for the residents and visitors of Collier
County. The Preserve itself is a prime example of a sub-tropical coastal
strand, and mangrove estuarine system on a barrier island. It is one of the
few remaining undeveloped coastal areas in southwest Florida. I believe it's
actually one of only three in our area. There are five plant communities
within the Preserve.
Moving from west to east we first encounter the beach and pioneer zone.
The beach itself appears to be a very sterile environment. During the summer
months, however, the beach is in a flurry of activity. Sea Turtles come
ashore to nest from May to September. Collier County Park Rangers and
dedicated volunteers work through the night to screen and protect the nests
from predators. The female turtle returns to the gulf after laying her eggs,
never to return to this nest again. She repeats the process several times
during the nesting season, and then doesn' t lay eggs again for two to three
years. In about 60 days, up to 150 hatchlings emerge from each nest, and
scramble to the water. This year, Barefoot Beach Preserve, had 62 nests.
There were 4,812 healthy babies that made it to the water. Only 1 in 100 of
these hatchlings will survive to maturity in 15 to 20 years. During these
times, Parks Rangers offer guided nature walks to the public and hopes of
sharing this phenomena.
The beach is a fascinating place for passive recreation. In addition to
swimming and sunning, the area is an excellent spot for bird watching.*taw variety of shore birds live upon and nest hear including the endangered Least
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Tern. Southern Bald Eagles can be seen frequently here. There is a pair that
nests east of the Preserve and they use the entire Preserve for hunting
mostly, and perching.
The Pioneer Zone is where we begin to see stabilizing vegetation. Beach
Morning, Gloria, Railroad Vine, Beach Elder, and Inkberry are- commonly seen
here.
The Fore Dune has many of the plants seen in the Pioneer Zone, with the
most valuable being the Sea Oats. These plants have long roots that help hold
the sand in place and protect the beach from wind and wave erosion. The Sea
Oats catch wind blown sand and create a larger and stronger Dune. The process
is repeated over and over all the while increasing the width of the beach and
protecting the preserve and thus the mainland from storm damage.
In Barefoot Beach Preserve the typical Fore Dune vegetation, and the Dune
itself on the northern portion of the Preserve is virtually by the presence of
Australian Pine Trees. Many years ago, these trees were introduced to South
Florida, and they are not native to the area. There's no natural competition
to keep their growth in check. Australian Pines have a very shallow and
extensive root system. Their rapid growth and size quickly overshadow and
kill native vegetation on the Dune. Additionally, their root system acts as a
barrier to natural wind and wave action. Sometimes creating erosion of the
beach. Because of the shallow root system, these trees easily topple in
storms creating danger to life and property. These roots also create a
barrier to nesting sea turtles. Florida Park Service Rangers and Collier
County Park Rangers have in the past several years eliminated thousands of
young and mature Australian Pine trees by hand pulling and mechanical means.
In addition to sea oats, the Coastal Strand Zone exhibits small trees,
such as Sea Grape, Prickly Pare Cactus, and a variety of wildlife such as
Raccoons. We have Bobcat, Gray Foxes, Osprey, and an endless variety of
amphibians.
Traveling east in the preserve at a slightly higher elevation is the
Maritime Hammock. This plant community is characterized by broadly shaped
trees, and the Hammock provides increased shelter, shade, and humidity.
In addition to the wide variety of plants, there's an array of wildlife.
The threatened Gofer Tortoise feeds throughout the Preserve but lives
primarily in the Hammock. These Tortoises live in extensive underground
boroughs in families. The boroughs can provide homes for up to 29 other
species of animals.
In the Eastern portion of the Hammock there's a habitat for a variety of
tropical hardwood trees and ferns. The Beach and Pioneer zone, the Fore Dune,
Coastal Strand, and the Maritime Hammock combined are about 100 acres of the
Entire Preserve. Of this 100 acres, 80 acres are invaded with exotic
vegetation. There is about 80 acres all total of exotics. That's minus the
beach which is about 11 acres. So, you can say roughly the entire Preserve is
invaded.
In addition to Australian Pine Trees, there's extensive invasion of the
Preserve of the Brazilian Pepper. This invasive plant was introduced to
Florida as an Ornamental shrub. Pepper Bushes and trees crowd out native
vegetation at an alarming rate.
The eastern portion of the Preserve is dominated by over 200 acres of
mangrove islands and title creeks. In addition to protecting the mainland
coast during storms, the Mangrove Estuarine systems provide homes, breeding
grounds, and nurseries for up to eighty percent of Florida's seafood.
In this area, as well as the Gulf, you may see Manatees, Sea Otters, or
just enjoy a quite day of fishing for snook, tarpon, or red fish. In order to
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achieve our goal of preservation, several programs have been implemented, and
are planned by the Collier County Parks and Recreation Department. Park
Rangers attempt to educate the public on the importance of the Preserve.
Interpretive displays address a variety of topics, including sea turtle
information, and shelling, gofer tortoises, and environmental tips.
Additionally signage has been installed on Dune Crossovers explaining the
importance of sea oats and sand dunes.
Throughout the year, Ranger guided nature walks are offered to the
Public. Walks encompass areas of the beach and Hammock, and give a general
overview of the entire Preserve and it's importance ecologically. Off site
presentations are offered to any interested group requesting this service.
Subject matter ranges from a general overview of the Preserve, to any specific
natural resource related topic within the Preserve. Most off site Programs
are tailored to fit the needs of the group and special emphasis is places on
visitation.
Park Rangers patrol the Preserve regularly to encourage visitor
compliance and provide visitor services. Patrol methods include horseback,
walking, and all terrain vehicle. In addition to interpretation, protection,
and visitor services, Park Rangers and Parks and Recreation Maintenance Staff
are assisted in their efforts by volunteers from the Citizens Association of
Bonita Beach, the Friends of Barefoot Beach, and many caring individuals.
Through education, interpretation, and ordinance compliance, the Collier
County Parks and Recreation Department hopes to encourage appreciation and
respect for this magnificent resource. As we all know, it's this appreciation
that will guarantee protection and preservation. Thank you.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Thank you Nan. One of our first priorities is th Dune
Preservation Zone. Currently it is invaded by exotics. We plan to restore it
back to it's original condition through re-vegetation processes. Existing
already, is our paved parking area. Proposed for this year is the
construction of a bath house with dune interconnects as an interpretive nature
trail that runs the length of the preserve and also the construction of the
third parking area. That's to encompass roughly 44 cars, and it will be
porous in nature. The next proposal is to construct a new parking area
roughly at the County Line. That's to encompass about 100 spaces access to
the beach will be provided throughout the Preserve every 800 feet, and will be
connected through our Dune Boardwalk which is our Interpretive Nature Trail.
We also do have plans for a restroom and observation area located in the
southern portion of the Preserve.
Let's for a minute, talk about the Maintenance support facility. We
think it is vital here in Parks and Recreation that we have a Ranger Resident
on duty in that area. Too often many illegal activities that tak place within
the confines of the Preserve. Whether it be camping, poaching, illegal
fishing, dune destruction, etc. So we are proposing two Full-time Park
Rangers, one to be a Resident Certified Law Enforcement Officer. In these
austere times we have also given thought to the use of Volunteers, Support
Groups, and Community Service Workers to help us provide service to the
public. We would like to also decrease financial obligation to the Advalorem
Tax Base.
Finally, we have our interpretive canoe trail running throughout the
Preserve. That will be a minimal financial obligation, and that will be part
of our Visitor Services Program. Mr. Chairman, we'd like to turn the Program
back to you for any questions.
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CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: For the benefit of the audience, what we generally do,
after the staff presentation is, we have the Board ask questions directly, and
then we open it up for the Public Hearing and have the public's individual
comments or questions.
MS. CHERRYLE THOMAS: In what fiscal year is this proposed?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Mrs. Thomas this is over a 50 year period. So, we're not
asking the taxpayers to do this all in one shot. But, there is some phases of
it. The funds for construction this year (1991/92) , comes from the Regional
Park Impact Fees.
MR. MURDO SMITH: The Dune Restoration in that northern area is also in this
year's budget.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: You say that access to this area is through the Lely
P.U.D. ?
MR. GARY FRANCO: That is correct.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Don' t we have to go through a Gate House to get into
that development?
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MR. GARY FRANCO: That is correct.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Is that going to be a problem?
(7 MR. GARY FRANCO: Mr. Clendenon, staff feels that is an issue that has to be
decided by the local governing body and the Collier County Commission. I
don' t think that anybody here today go ahead and try to resolve that issue.
So, we're going to redirect that to the County Commission.
MR. MURDO SMITH: We have a Lease Agreement, Mrs. Till, with the State for the
southern portion. That's what the State have given us to manage for them.
That's a 50 year Lease.
MR. GIL MUELLER: That was a very thorough presentation, I know we all
appreciate it. I'm particularly impressed and surprised at the amount of
wildlife in that area. You made reference to several species that I was
astounded to here existed there. Bobcats, for example. I was reading in this
plan, on page 21, it says something about bears.
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: The habitat is suitable for black bears, however, because
of the development all around the preserve, and that whole section of Collier
County, the habitat has been reduced, that their are no bears existing in the
Preserve at this time. There used to be deer and bears there.
MR. GIL MUELLER: What's your thinking as far as people walking around in
there is concerned, and I'm thinking primarily those little things that
slither along the ground.
Ms. NANNETTE KLEIN: We have some very nice snakes in the Preserve. They are
friendly snakes.
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MR. GIL MUELLER: Is there some type of warning to caution people in the event
that there are poisonous snakes there? Are there poisonous snakes there?
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: The habitat is suitable for poisonous snakes.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Are people walking in those areas?
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: Well, we have people walking on an existing dirt path
through the Preserve. Primarily, the visitation is on the beach. But, we do
have walkers in a portion of the Hammock.
MR. GIL MUELLER: There again, it's simply suitable, they don' t necessarily
exist there. In that walk-over on page 26, Murdo, did you mention during our
last board meeting that the walkovers had begun?
MR. MURDO SMITH: We have constructed, three Dune Crossovers in our Portion of
the Barefoot Beach Preserve. We're in the process of reviewing and evaluating
a bid on the Bathhouse structure. Besides the parking lot, that is the only
Construction that we have done to date in that area.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Lastly, on pages 33, 34, 35, and 36 it was talked about the
Ranger that might be considered for there. What are we talking about money
wise in the event this ever became a reality?
MR. MURDO SMITH: You'd be talking about the possibility of some type of
trailer that would probably be in the neighborhood of $10,000.00.
MR. GARY FRANCO: It's not going to be a 3-2 with a pool. Believe me. It's
going to be something like a trailer that they have in State Parks, and a
Generator. That's basically it.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Is that considered a Resident Ranger then?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes. Anyone who lives on site is considered a Resident
Ranger.
MR. GIL MUELLER: This sounds like a pretty expensive undertaking. Does it
not?
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MR. GARY FRANCO: Not really. You may have to purchase a trailer and
generator, but that's about it. It's not going to anything lavish, and then
here's going to be a compound, so to speak, to put equipment. We're not going
to put a lot of money into that. Believe me.
MR. GIL MUELLER: But, you wouldn' t consider this until the park becomes
financially self sufficient. Would you?
MR. GARY FRANCO: No. But, I'm not sure that the Park will become financially
self sufficient. We have not addressed any fees and charges in this area.
MR. GIL MUELLER: It sounds like a pretty substantial financial undertaking
for a full time Resident Ranger in that park.
41411101 MR. GARY FRANCO: Currently within the Parks and Recreation Department, we
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have 360 acres of Park Land. That is Beaches, Community Parks, and
Neighborhood Parks. That would fit nicely in these 342 acres. So it's a big
undertaking. You're exactly right!
MR. GIL MUELLER: I can see what the magnitude of something like that, and the
complexity of that park, that a Ranger of that type would be a necessity.
But, the only thing that concerns me is the cost of doing so, and at the
present time, of course, this is a negative cost situation. I was just
wondering what the timing was, or what you've planned as far as that
particular park was concerned. I presume it won' t be in for quite a while.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Also within the language of the Agreement, we can revisit
priorities every five years. This is all to be done in phases.
MS. GENEVA TILL: About this roadway, fencing and barricading on page 33.
That roadway that has been developed scaring the length of the Preserve. Are
the Rangers going to have some kind of authority to stop people from going in
there?
MR. MURDO SMITH: We have the authority, and they do stop people now. We
placed some natural barriers in front of that road (i.e. Cabbage Palms) that
would stop the people from driving down that road with their vehicles.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I'd like to compliment you on your presentation.
Obviously you've put a lot of work into it. That's very evident by the
quality of your presentation. I do have a number of questions that I want to
ask. In reviewing the plan itself and the document that was prepared. First
of all, I want to understand what's the driving the Land Management Plan. Is
this a statutory requirement? Is this a requirement by virtue of our
Agreement with the State? Where exactly does the initiative come from to
develop a plan?
MR. GARY FRANCO: That is in the Agreement with the State Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: So by terms of the Agreement with the State then, we're
required to have a Land Management Plan for the State Preserve.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Correct. However, we would like to adopt and use it within
the County owned section of the Preserve also. So, we'll have a comprehensive
plan for the whole Preserve area.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: If adopted, would this be incorporated into our
Comprehensive Plan or would it require any County Comprehensive Plan
Amendments? Do you know?
MR. MURDO SMITH: This Parkland is included in our Growth Management plan as a
Regional Park facility.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Are we under any time constraints in adoption of the
Management Plan? Does the Agreement with the State require that we adopt it,
and/or that the County Board adopt it in a certain time frame?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. The Draft has to be submitted to the State by the end
of November. The State has two months to review it and send it back to us
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with comments or changes. Then the BCC has to approve it at that time.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: On page 37 it lists the public hearings, and it
basically, as I read it, recites the hearings before the Parks and Recreation
Advisory Board and then a County Hearing for adoption. I'm concerned that
with something of this level of importance, that all groups have the ability
to have input. Specifically, I'm thinking in terms of avoiding past issues
with Barefoot Beach, and making sure everybody again has that opportunity. I
know we have a lot of people here today from all segments of the area up
there, but my question is, are there any plans to have any public workshops
maybe in that area or involving specifically the community up there? I know
there's a large residential community there as well. Do you have any thoughts
on that?
MR. MURDO SMITH: We didn' t plan on having additional Public Hearings. We
thought that this would be all the necessary public meetings that we would
have.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: The history in the County has shown that the more the
public is involved and understands this type of plan the more willing
volunteers you're going to get, and the more cooperation. If there's anything
along those lines that we can accomplish it may be worthwhile to have a Public
Workshop.
I noticed that page 28 in the plan that it talks about boats, and the
prohibition of boats in the backwater areas and also what is designated as
being the swimming beach. I have two questions that are related to that
statement. One is this. Historically that beach is known as boaters beach,
and I'd be interested to understand how this type of prohibition would effect
the current boating activity that takes place. Has there been an effort to
understand where that boat traffic is generated, and how it might be impacted.
The second question is: How does this dovetail with our County-wide Ordinance
on vessel corridors and the boating activity within 500 feet of the beach.
MR. GARY FRANCO: The answer to your first question, Mr. Chairman, we are only
restricting access in the backwaters for the boating community. Boaters can
still have access to the south portion of this beach, and that's exactly where
they're going right now.
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: We have a lot of boaters that use the beach in particular
on the weekends, and we have had little or no problem with those boaters.
Basically what we have there, is an area that boaters use anyway. Boaters do
not interfere with the swimmers.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: How about the backwater areas? I've noticed there's the
houseboat activity, and little pontoon boats. Would this impact that
activity?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes. We're requesting to restrict access in the backwaters
to preserve our native vegetation back there. However, we are proposing an
interpretive canoe trail back in through those areas.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I would just want to make sure that we hear everybody's
input and that would seem to me to be one input that needs to be listened to.
At page 34 we talked about the Park Rangers a little bit, and I understand
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this is a plan only, but I'm trying to understand how the Park Ranger concept
in this park fits in with our County-wide parks policy and the Park Ranger
Program. Would this be an extension of that existing Program? Your proposal
for full time Rangers?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Correct
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: So all of the Park Rangers that we currently have in the
County-wide park system would also go into this Park as well.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Correct
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: We've been struggling to get Park Rangers throughout the
County. How can we justify full time Rangers at this facility, when we don' t
have even a part time Rangers at other facilities like Vanderbilt Beach Park,
Clam Pass Park, Tigertail, the Immokalee Parks, and so on?
MR. GARY FRANCO: The BCC has authorized the hiring of two part time Rangers
exclusively for the Preserve. This is 342 acres of environmental sensitive
area. That in itself probably should identify more Rangers than what we're
asking for. But, we're trying to limit the financial obligations to the
taxpayers.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I am concerned about the budgetary implications of this
program. Like, 80 acres of exotic removal. What is the real dollar cost of
that today? Because, just in my experience, that is an expensive program!
Have you made any efforts to put together a comprehensive cost analysis.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes. In this year's budget, we do have $57,000.00 for
exotic removal. That will will encompass 3100 lineal feet of beach. The
State has done a wonderful job with exotic removal. It's going to be an
ongoing process. However, the exotic control can be accomplished through
Rangers, support groups, and Community Service Workers.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: When you talk about Brazilian Peppers, and Australian
Pines, that's pretty expensive. Do we have a budgetary concept of what's
going to happen over a period of time? What's that cost going to be?
MR. MURDO SMITH: We're going to have to budget a certain amount of money per
year so that we can accomplish that. Just for an example, we could say
between 10 and 20 thousand dollars a year. Of course, it would be up to the
BCC whether they could approve that or not. That way, we would do it in
phases. We would tackle it ongoing throughout the budgetary process. I feel
that the exotic removal is probably never going to end. We're going to have
to keep after it all the time. So, it's going to be a basically an
operational budgetary amount that we'll have to put in the Budget in every
year.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: At the outset though, can we get some idea of what the
long term cost of this is? For instance, I know that when a developer is
faced with this kind of situation, where a developer has to do exotic removal,
they know on a per acre basis what the cost of doing that is.
MR. MURDO SMITH: I was just going to ask if possibly Mr. Jeff Moore would
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know a cost per hour. Jeff is with Coastal Engineering, and he has helped put
this plan together.
MR. JEFF MOORE: I'm Jeff Moore with Coastal Engineering. We've looked into
that issue quite in depth. This is a recurring problem in Collier County and
also projects that we're doing up in Lee County. I think the main thing you
need to be conscious of about this specific property is, we can not use
conventional techniques to bring this thing under control, because it is so
intermixed with the native vegetation. If we tried to bring in heavy
equipment, and started moving the exotics we'd do more harm than good. So,
we're going have to do this, and it's going to have to be done very carefully,
with more man power, and more lightweight equipment. Now, if you have to go
to that extreme then definitely it's going to cost more money. If you go in
and just strictly with the heavy equipment, it probably will cost you maybe a
thousand or two per acre. If you want to go more, you're inclined to hand
equipment and that type of nature work you're talking maybe ten times that
cost. It could run as high as $10,000 per acre.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Then 80 acres is $800,000.00.
MR. JEFF MOORE: That's right, but not necessarily all that has to be done at
once.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: No, and I understand that this is a ten year or longer
plan, but I just want to understand what that number is.
MR. JEFF MOORE: That's the worst case scenario. There's different research
efforts going on right now. In Australia, where a lot of these exotics came
from and also in South Florida they're looking at other biological controls.
So, maybe ten years down the road there will be some other ways to do this
vegetation control and not use the labor intensive techniques we're forced to
use right now.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: When you go through a plan of exotic removal, and we're
talking about doing this in phases. Do you have, I don' t want to say a
guarantee, but what I'm looking for is the probability of success of that type
of plan to prevent future infestation.
MR. JEFF MOORE: If we get the dominant species out now, which is probably the
Australian Pines, the normal native vegetation that inhabit wetlands would
have a chance to recover and stabilize it and if we have a continual
maintenance going in, pulling seedlings out before they reach the heights to
create problems again, you'll have a highly successful program.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I just want to make sure we're not going down the
slippery slope here where we start into a program and because we're into it,
then we're making more expenditures, but it doesn' t work. That is very
important, because I think as you've seen increased accountability in the
County and increased public concern over costs of County activities, that's
going to be a question that the public is very definitely going to be focused
in on.
MR. JEFF MOORE: Well, another thing you need to keep in mind, I'm a Landscape
Architect, and I work quite often with Coastal Engineers that are very much
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aware of what these exotics are doing and the erosion at the beaches, because
they've eliminated the whole dune support system that's behind it. Because
that vegetation just doesn' t have the structural intertwining root structure
to help support it. There's a lot of other communities that are facing the
same problems that this community is facing.
MR. GARY FRANCO: I just don't want to lead everybody down the path, and say
it's going to cost $800,000.00 for this removal. Because I'm not really sure
where that figure just came from. But, what we're saying, is we do have
in-house staff that currently do exotic removal within the confines of the
Preserve.
MR. MURDO SMITH: I've received a note. The Transportation Department also
has a long term commitment for environmental mitigation. There's a five year
plan of mitigation approved by the Board by resolution, and perhaps we could
look into getting some assistance in the way of exotic vegetation removal.
Ladd, if you would like to respond to that.
MR. LADD RYZIW: Good Afternoon Board, Mr. Chairman, public members. My name
is Ladd Ryziw, a Civil Engineer in the Transportation Department. Primarily a
roadway planner, designer, and constructor of Collier County Highway Systems.
I'm here also to essentially support the overall Park project here. The
Transportation Department has been supporting the Parks and Recreation
Department from a design standpoint. I wanted to give a little note to Murdo
in support of the potential costs of removal of exotics long term wise along
the preserve frontage. What I wanted to mention here, in support of the Parks
and Recreation Department from a funding standpoint for long term exotic
removal is the fact that during our design and construction of highways in
Collier County, we have various environmental commitments to local, state, and
federal environmental agencies, and we have to mitigate certain environmental
impacts. In order to offset some of the time and cost impacts on the
environment caused by highway construction, Transportation has presented a
five year environmental program to the Board of County Commissioners in the
terms of a Resolution which has been approved. What does that really mean as
far as this particular park project is concerned? What it really means is in
the future we'll be presenting to the environmental agencies, various
mitigation proposals to offset impacts on highways. There are six preserves
within the area of Collier County, and honestly I'm not sure if this
particular Preserve is listed, but there are six Preserves listed in this
Resolution whereby Transportation in years to come would be undertaking
environmental mitigation to offset roadway impacts. I wanted to kind of bring
that forth as far as a funding contribution of some sort. Murdo.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Thank you!
MR. JEFF MOORE: I'd like to clarify something. That 80 acre number that was
discussed earlier. That doesn' t mean that those whole areas are completely
dominated. Probably about six acres are completely dominated. That
$10,000.00 per acre would not be necessary for the whole 80 acres. The other
is probably something that Gary's staff could handle over a period of time.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mr. Moore, one final question on this. In the report on
page 33. It talks about the implementation of the barrier or gating on
State/County line or between the County Preserve and the State Preserve. I
11
understand the value of the barriers as to keeping vehicles in the confines of
the roadway and designate traffic areas preventing off-road activities with
vehicles. Is that the intent of that statement in the report?
MR. JEFF MOORE: Primarily. The only people that would be allowed beyond that
would strictly be the staff.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Does that imply the construction of another gate house at
the State/County line.
MR. MURDO SMITH: No. It could be a very simple gate or something like what
we have at the entrance to our park. That would not be a permanent type of
fence, and we wouldn't want to spend a lot of dollars doing that, but we would
like to have some type of barricade there.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I was real concerned about how that is done. I think
it's important that it be done in an aesthetically pleasing way, because this
is a very nice Preserve.
MR. JEFF MOORE: That's what we're going to recommend, is something that very
much blends in, that's compatible with the park kind of atmosphere.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Are there any other questions of Board Members at this
time?
MR. GIL MUELLER: I share your concerns, Mr. Chairman. I'm concerned about
the financial impact that this will have on the park districts. It's a
tremendous undertaking, obviously, and I guess my concern lays in the fact,
that so many of our other facilities or other sites are constantly needing
upgrading, renovation, improvement, being expanded upon, and I just hope that
this new venture won' t impair any of that or reflect badly on it. Our first
concern is to maintain and to improve the basic facilities that we have.
That's our first priority in my opinion. I would want to be very cautious in
proceeding too rapidly on this, because after all I don' t think it's that top
of a priority compared to some of the other problems we have throughout the
park district in upgrading the facilities.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Mr. Mueller, a lot of the funding, for the improvements at
this site will be through Regional Park Impact Fees, so they would not be
advalorem taxes. The equipment that would be necessary could also be
purchased out of Impact Fees.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I know this is difficult to answer, Murdo, but give me a
ballpark figure as to what percentage could be expected from Impact Fees.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Well, you're talking long term. All the improvements at
that facility could be taken out of Impact Fees. Currently we have budgeted
in the present budget funds to do work this year, which is coming out of
Impact Fees.
MR. GIL MUELLER: What do you think of probability of securing money through
the Tourist Development Tax? Didn' t we write a letter to somebody on that a
number of months ago, asking that question?
12
MR. MURDO SMITH: We have done it for actually two projects. We did it for
Vanderbilt Beach, and for some maintenance of the beaches. We asked for
Tourist Development tax money to fund those. You can receive a portion of
your maintenance cost out out of the Tourist Development Tax which would be
cleaning the litter, and so forth on the beach.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I understand. Well, that makes me feel a little bit better,
because I really don' t think that the taxpayers of Collier County would
necessarily be that enthusiastic about spending a great deal of money on this
park.
PUBLIC HEARING
3:13 P.M.
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: My name is George Fogg, I'm a Landscape Architect, and am
a resident at 628 Woodshire Lane. I am concerned about the light area on the
map. The in-holding, which seems to have been just hopped over. In my some
25 years of experience in designing and managing parks, inholding seemed to be
the most difficult thing that occurs. What's the status on that? Where is it
addressed? How is it addressed?
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Could you describe what in-holding is for the Board?
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: That's that white area. That's somebody else's private
property inside the park boundary.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes. That is within the Park Boundaries. However we do
have a twelve foot access that goes through that. That's called Gulf Bay
Drive. I believe the selling price is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.56
million dollars.
MR. GIL MUELLER: It's a strip of land, Gary? Who owns this?
EMILY MAGGIO: Could I make a comment? I could just tell you that I know the
lady that owns it. She refused to sell to the State when the others sold, now
she's trying to sell it individually. The price is 1 .5 million the last that
I heard.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: It could also be subject to condemnation.
EMILY MAGGIO: I suggested that too.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Where is it addressed in the plan?
MR. GARY FRANCO: It is called the out-parcel in the plan.
MR. JEFF MOORE: The current plan that I will elaborated upon that detail.
Because we've done some research recently on that, to identify existing
ownership, and existing access ways that do exist. As far as we could tell,
there is a right of way that exists right through the middle of it that will
allow access down to the the south beach. Also there is access along the
beach front itself. So, it doesn' t restrict access. The only concern that I
13
have, and I think staff has is that we don' t know just what the future plans
of that property is, and what kind of ramifications it has. We'd recommend
„ that the County with the State, purchase the property.
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: How are you controlling the number of users of the park?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Actually we are controlling parking places within the
confines of the Preserve. However, that is controlled by the number of
parking places available. Which is presently, right now 67 and 42.
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: I understand that concept. What methodology is used to
keep 67 or 100, or whatever number of cars only in that area?
MR. GARY FRANCO: We are in communication with the access point at the Lely
Development.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: To kind of capsulize that a little bit, is it fair to say
that in order to adopt a plan, we need to resolve the access issue. We need
to have a functioning understanding of the access issue in order to implement
the plan.
MR. GARY FRANCO: I don' t want to lose site of the fact that the planned
concept is the most important thing. Certainly there is an access issue. As
I've said before, I don' t think we can resolve that here today.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Well, I'm very familiar with it, having sat on the
Special Task Force together with Mrs. Ward and a number of other individuals.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: What's our ability to take Utilities down to the site?
What would be the provision for Utilities?
MR. MURDO SMITH: What the utilities would be, is when the Bath House is
installed down there, the utilities would be run to it at that time.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Would it be on septic? It's probably a terrible area for
that.
MR. LADD RYZIW: The utilities come down the access road, and right at the
terminus of the parking areas. Sanitary Sewer, and domestic water supply
systems are existing out there. The sewage is simply pumped to the north to
treatment areas. As to whether or not the existing utilities that are located
within the Collier County Park are extended south to the tip of the State land
holdings is something that really has not been decided upon.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: What would be the cost of doing that? How much lineal
footage are we talking about? Do you know what average for quite an extension
of those kind of utilities is?
MR. LADD RYZIW: the Park length is at 5,000 feet.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: But how much farther? You're saying they're already to
the County portion of the County Preserve area. Right?
`err MR. MURDO SMITH: Right. So, you'd be talking approximately half way, 2500
14
feet.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Do you have any concept of what that would cost? Would
you require Environmental Permits or installation of utilities.
MR. LADD RYZIW: Mr. Chairman, one thing to keep in mind is, utilities into
the State land holdings may not be permissive what so ever. But, in the area
of cost, it's because of the retrieving capacity and so forth, there's a lot
of issues behind it, that I would just like to say that it would be a
substantial cost, and if the Board wishes, I'd rather go ahead and prepare
probably to Mr. Smith here, a little statement on a cost.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I don' t want you to give us an opinion where you're not
sure of it.
MR. LADD RYZIW: I would say that it would be a substantial cost, a financial
impact on the project that may not have been originally planned for. But, I
did want to mention that the Utilities may not be permissive within a State
Park.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Thank you very much Mr. Ryziw.
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: Good Afternoon Mr. Chairman and Board Members. My name is
Emily Maggio, I live in Little Hickory Shores, I have been privileged to use
that beach for the 22 years that I've lived here. It's a beautiful area, it
deserves to be protected. I was only one of many who petitioned to have the
State initially buy it, and eventually the County buy it. At that time our
goal was to have the Public enjoy it. But to have a minimum amount of
development as possible, so as to preserve the natural resources.
A Ranger, even though I am concerned about taxes as anyone else, I think
a Ranger is imperative. I don' t believe this County has another park that has
the resources that this park has. In fact, that's another reason I fight
tooth and nail every time they want to dredge the pass because that's over
manipulation is going to spill over and damage these resources. Bear that in
mind. I don' t think it's a point that anyone has brought up to you, and you
should, because those boats are not going to be content just to go out the
pass, they are going to want to go north. The waters there are very shallow.
They're 18 inches to two feet. Eventually the people are not going to be
happy just to go out, they're going to want to go north and south and you're
never going to keep the boats out of there. I mean, it's going to be a real
problem! So, the best thing in my opinion, is to keep things as natural as
possible and let the natural resources and the natural constraints that they
put on things, be your growth management. Just refuse to manipulate them, and
that will provide for you effect resource management and growth management as
One of the points that I felt was not covered, and it was brought up, is
access. Access is paramount! In 1977, September 27, the Lely Barefoot Beach
PUD was approved by the County. At that point in time, the road right of way,
the easement was owned by the state. In December of 1977 when Lely sold part
of the property that they sold to the State. The following year on August
1st, the State and Lely entered into an Agreement whereby the State gave up
ownership of the right of way. What they got in return was, a permanent
easement for ingress and egress to the property. Only constraint on that is,
they can close the gate only after park hours. While there's a park any gate
would have to be opened to public traffic. Also, what the State got, was not
15
only the construction of the road, but the maintenance of that road in
perpetuity. The only reason I believe the State gave up ownership of that
right of way, which is the only access to their property, was because of what
they were given. These were very valuable considerations and Lely agreed to
them and signed.
Again, in 1988, the road was actually built. In fact, when Lely signed
this agreement in 1978 they made a commitment to the state to build that road
within three years. It was supposed to have been built by 1981, but was not.
In 1985, when Lely went to the County and got a PUD Amendment, they put a date
on building the road as June of 1989 and that's eventually when the road was
completed.
In 1988 Lely went again to the State because they had to relocate the
road. It was running through wetlands. So, they went to the state, signed
another agreement to move the location out of the wetlands. The wetlands,
incidentally, that those condominiums are now being built in. However, the
road got up on the high and dry. In this agreement, it again guarantees the
State's right of access to their property. It also spells out the conditions
for maintenance of the road which are Lely's and actually this is the first
time that it is mentioned that after Lely, it will be the homeowners that will
do it.
Lely should have informed anyone, because in 1977 or 1978 when all this
took place there were no homes.
In this agreement in 1988, it is spelled out, and it says that Lely
further agrees to advise any potential buyer of any property encumbered set
forth in Paragraph two of the existence of this agreement prior to the sale of
any property. So anyone who purchased after this definitely was mislead, if
they were not told about the easement.
When the County purchased the Property, there was a use access agreement
drafted. At a point in time, when we took on the lease of the property from
the state, we took on their rights. Therefore, we should have access over
that road during park hours, unrestricted.
We have a Ranger in the park who will determine the park is full, and at
which point cars will be turned away. I've heard it said, why should people
drive down that two miles, well who's to say when I start or while I'm at the
gate, or on my way down that a car isn' t leaving and will be coming out. If
you're going stop, an unnecessary trip, then you're going to have to put out
advisories all over the County to say "Don' t head for Lely Barefoot or any
other park, because the parking places are all taken. " and I realize there are
residents here from Barefoot beach, who I hope are friends of mine. I hope
they understand. These agreements were put in place long before there were
residents. There things that were given to the public were given in exchange
for ownership of that road. Therefore, we are entitled to these rights.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mrs. Maggio, outside of the access issue, did you. . . I
know that you're very involved in that area. Do you have other comments or
other thoughts on the Management Plan specifically?
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: I think, low key development was what we always had in
mind. We hope that the parking places will be limited, and really, if you
read that. . . I think you'll have an easier time preserving what's there by
minimizing the amount of development in parking and everything else that you
put there. As far as the exotics, I like to get out of the sun, when I'm on
the beach. Right now, the only thing is the Australian Pine. Those exotics
didn' t get there overnight. I don' t think you should consider taking them out
16
overnight, because they do provide habitat for some of the animals that you're
going to lose. So, if you do that, there's going to have to be, over a long
period of time, and with some very careful thought as to replacement. You
can' t just take down, a barrier island, I think if you strip it, it'll wash
away. You know, the Australian Pines may not be good, but they're there.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I think the Plan, if I read it correctly, contemplates
replenishment of the plant growth as part of the program.
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: I hope so! Like I say, I didn' t find a big problem with
it, like I say, it's low key, which is what we were contemplating, and I was
concerned.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: You know, I think we do in fact have copies of many of
those documents in our packet.
DR. LEON EISENBUD: I'm Leon Eisenbud, I'm President of the Barefoot Beach
Residents Property Owners Master Association. I think that the discussion
that Mrs. Maggio has brought up about access is really totally irrelevant.
However, having brought it up, I would like one minute, that's all, to just
read to her what it says in the document that I have. "The Board Agrees the
Standard Operating Procedure of recreational activities occurring on Property
will include limited number of vehicles accessing the property. To the number
of actual parking spaces located on the property. If parking becomes full,
and at times access to the property will be temporarily closed at the
intersection of Bonita Beach Road at the entrance of Lely Beach Subdivision.
Until such time that parking spaces become available. Upon request, the Park
Superintendent or his representative shall have the right to stop access to
the property when the parking lot is full.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: You know, I've provided a lot of latitude here to speak
on the access issue. But, I think we're all aware that it's been the subject
of a very long County Commission meeting, a Special Task Force is dealing with
it, the Attorney's Office is reviewing it. Any number of reviews, and I think
for purposes of today's hearing, at least, we'd like to focus on the
Management Plan, the environmental factors, what we see within the plan, and I
would just ask that we do some of that, because I think this could get to be a
very long drawn out discussion, and I would hate to do it at the expense of
some of these other issues in the plan. So, if you would just bear with me on
that point, I'd greatly appreciate it.
MR. DAVID W. WARD: I'm Dave Ward, I'm Vice President of C.A.B.B. (Citizens
Association of Bonita Beach) . We try to protect the public rights to public
land.
To your point, Mr. Kobza, as to the quality of the job that you're doing
with your plan for the park, I think It's tremendous! I think you've done an
excellent job! Your plan is past due at this particular time, as we know, and
your plan goes to the State for approval. I would assume that that they would
approve it. It looks great to me. I'm going to make a couple of suggestions
on your plan.
I think it's absolutely necessary with the large investment of a park
like this, and the resources that are involved here that you have a permanent
person there day and night. We know that Bonita Beach has been vandalized
several times. Wiggins Pass State Park has been vandalized. It's a
17
peninsula, it's isolated, people can come in with boats, and do damage, so you
really need a full time party there at night. If for no other reason, just to
let people know that there's somebody there that can hear what's going on.
I would like to see you have your Ranger Station up near the parking lot at
least. Because for one thing, it will be less costly for utilities.
I think there should be more provision for boating than your canoe trail.
There's a lot of people that use that waterway behind the park. I know, I'm
going to get people here that disagree with me, and try to keep people out of
these lands, in a way. But, my personal opinion is, if a person wants to come
in to that park from usually a small boat, maybe little bit larger than a
canoe or something, that they have someplace that they can picnic there.
They'll go out and swim on the beach, from the inland point of view. Because,
there's a lot of people that use the inland waterway that are not big boat
people. I mean you've got a beautiful park here. It's for the public that '
you're doing this. I believe. I hope. You don't have a sign out at the
road. There's a little sign there. It's white on white! You know, you can' t
even see it! It's down in the bush! It says, Preserve area! But, there's
supposed to be, in the PUD, a sign like all the parks. There's a big sign
coming into the Golden Gate Community Park, and at Barefoot Beach's Gaurded
entrance you don' t have any sign, and it's supposed to be on the Lely right of
way. I think the public is entitled to know that, that park is there, and I
think if you're going to all this effort, you should see to it, that it's put
there. It's in the PUD, the State would like to probably see that sign there,
because they spent money on that. So, that should be part of your plan.
MR. DAVID ADDISON: My name is Dave Addison, I'm a Biologist at the
Conservancy, and we're located at 1450 Merrihue Drive in Naples. Our interest
in this is from our involvement in the legal proceedings. I read over the
Management Plan, I've just got a couple of suggestions for Murdo and Gary.
I would suggest. . . I'm assuming that the boardwalk is going to go down
the existing dirt path. And, you're going to site a road, which I hope will
be a pervious type of road in this area.
It would help, I think a great deal, for DNR when they evaluate your
Management Plan, if you have a Habitat Map. It would show them specifically
what this road is going through, so they can evaluate the impacts of the road.
I think the same with the support facilities. If you decide to put the house
down where it is, or as this other gentleman suggested, maybe moving it back
up it might help.
The other point that Emily made, which was back to trying to maintaining
the character of this area. The mention is made of 100 parking spaces. I
think that's probably what you should look at as a limit, a maximum of what
you put in there. You know, in the future, I'm sure you'll probably phase
those in as you do it. If you end up with maybe two or three hundred parking
spaces down there, a lot of the experience that the people are seeking on the
beach, you'll end up with St. Petersburgh Beach. It just detracts from the
whole thing. I think everybody in the room understands that.
As far as the exotic control is concerned, I think Jeff Moore made a good
point in what he was saying, is you can pay us now, or pay me more later if
you don' t address the problem that you're going to be faced with. When you're
dealing with exotic removal, again, to get this plan approved by DNR I think
you need to go into a little bit more detail on exactly how you're going to
address this. Because, they're going to ask questions about that. The State
doesn' t like exotic plants, and with good reason. I've seen what they've done
litmw on Key Island, and I can certainly understand what Nan has said about the
18
problem they cause with erosion and with the Turtles trying to nest. You've
got money appropriated now to start working on the exotics up in the north
end?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Right, and the Dune Restoration in that area.
MR. DAVID ADDISON: I don' t know how you'll phase it, but I think you might
find yourself saving yourself a little bit of money as you develop this park.
If you try to get the exotics out before you get the Boardwalk in, because
that presents a barrier between the road and the beach. So, to try to get the
equipment back and forth there, it might be a little bit easier for you. I
think too, although it's not an idea without merit, the idea of prohibiting
boats on the back side of that is going to be met with a lot or resistance.
What I might suggest as an alternative is to restrict that to an idle speed
back there, but for sure ban the use of Jet Skis back there and probably on
the front of the beach. We've gotten a fatality down here at Hurricane Pass,
not long ago. Those things are fairly hazardous.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: That raises a question. Again, on our Beach Ordinance,
just a thought that comes to mind. It may apply on the seaward side of the
park facilities, but I'm not very sure that it would apply in the backwater
areas, and we may want to take a look at that.
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: It doesn' t apply in the backwater areas. Ordinance
number 89-11, the Beach and Water Safety Ordinance, is strictly for the beach.
What we're looking at on the Map might be confusing some people. A great
portion of that area your motorboats can' t get into. It's only suitable for
canoes. What we're looking at right here where we're proposing our canoe
trail, unless you had a small electric motor on a canoe or something, you
wouldn' t get through there anyway. People aren' t using that to begin with.
MR. DAVID ADDISON: Make sure you clarify that with the people.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: You know, I wasn' t thinking so much of the speed boats,
because I agree, the speed boats can' t get back in there. But, what I was
thinking of, like the pontoon boats that almost can go up on the beach.
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: It's very narrow. Some places are not even as wide as
the width of this table.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Well I think that does need to be clear then, to
explain it.
MR. DAVID ADDISON: The other thing I would suggest. . . This came up when we
brought the County Boat Ramp up before the EAC and another little project that
was going in there adjacent to that area. You might want to consider this for
your Boat Ramp too. Is, put some signage up on the beaches, or on that little
back bay area there where people pull up on the back side, that explains to
the people that it's a hazardous pass, and it's shallow, and you have to use
common sense and care when you go through it. It's been a long time since
I've been down there on a boat, but there was an are back in here where there
was some sand where people would pull up and park their boats on it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mr. Addison, thank you.
19
(5 minute break)
MS. BARBARA HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, Board, my name is Barb Hickman, I live at
102 Kaula Lane, Bonita Springs, Florida, 33923. I am representing "Friends of
Barefoot Beach Preserve" . I'm the President at this point. We're
Incorporating as a non-profit organization, and we were founded about six
months ago. We now have 88 paid members and a mailing list of about 200
people. Our main idea for this Preserve was to keep the Preserve as a
Preserve and help the Rangers as much as we could. We've expressed to the
Land Management Plan, that we like it, and we particularly desire to develop
and maintain the Preserve as a Habitat for the Native Plants and to Animals
living there. We feel that the Preserve, the land is so beautiful, that the
more we build on it, the less beauty we have. The environment is the
important thing. For the purposes of all we have listened to, we would like
to be about to get together with friends as a group, and maybe be able to, at
a different time come back and review it again. I believe this will happen,
because it's going to come back from the State.
We also would like to know, if there is in writing, what is the
difference between the term Park and Preserve? If this is in writing
anywhere? How to distinguish from one or the other? And, is the entire
State/County stretch Preserve, or is the County part of it a Park? What is
included in the term, Passive Recreation, which we did cover. We would like
to be able to get together again and have another meeting about this. I would
like to add that we're talking about the cost of this, and actually the more
pristine that we keep this, and less building, the less cost it would be to
keep it up. If you put in a home, and concessions, you have more up keep and
more costly expenditures. The way it is now, we think it is beautiful and we
think that most people that come in there, as far as concession, know what's
there and they're prepared to have their own soda, have their own food, and
have their own umbrella. There's no need to have these things available there
to rent, or to purchase.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mrs. Hickman, earlier in the presentation, I had
suggested the possibility of another meeting, a public meeting, perhaps an
evening meeting. So that as many people as possible could attend it. Do you
believe that it would be beneficial for your group and other people in the
community up there?
MS. BARBARA HICKMAN: The Friends might be willing to arrange this and have an
open meeting. I think also, another thing that people maybe don' t realize is
that maybe 50 percent of the people that use this Park are from Lee or out of
State. We're at the far end of this County up there, and if we have a
meeting, you're not going to get the people from the lower end of the County
perhaps to come.
MRS. MARJORIE WARD: Good Afternoon. My name is Marjorie Ward, I'm the
President of C.A.B.B. (Citizens Association of Bonita Beach) , and though the
name lends you to think that we're talking about Lee County, we are right on
the County line actually. We operate in both Lee and Collier Counties. We
are concerned with the beaches, and the sovereign right that the public has to
get to the beaches which are held by the Governor and Cabinet in Public Trust.
Three Hundred Sixty Five (365) days of the year, on Barefoot and Bonita Beach
we're doing the pickup. I'm only mentioning this, for the benefit of the
people who do not know where we come from, where our interest is, and we of
20
course have been very much concerned with Barefoot Beach Preserve Land and
work very hard to try to get. . . Most of what I would've said has already been
said by people before me, so I'm just going to try to hit by saying where our
association agrees with certain statements that have been made. For the
record, as far as what Emily Maggio has said relative to the access to the
park and the background we concur a hundred percent. We do feel that there is
a need for a full time Resident Park Ranger on the property, an around the
clock type. If not tomorrow, at least by the time a little bit more gets
invested into the park. The two closest State lands are Delnor-Wiggins State
Park in Collier County, which is on the other side of Wiggins Pass, and Lovers
Key, which is in Lee County and that is under the jurisdiction of the Park
Rangers. So, they have, in both places, they do have full time people in
there. As far as Delnor, they have actual homes that the Park Manager and the
Assistant Park Manager live in. On Lover's Key, the couple of Park Rangers
live in trailers. But, they are on the property, so that even at that there
has been vandalism that has occurred. They can' t be everyplace at the same
time, but at least it does deter some of the people if they know that there is
a policeman in uniform, it turns a few people off from trying to do things.
When they talked about jet skis, for heaven sakes, don' t allow any jet
skis the beach. When anybody is talking about trying to keep a pristine,
beautiful, peaceful, quiet, a place that you want to go, that is the biggest
problem that you can have to ruination of that whether they be the ones that
fly through the air and land on the ground, or jet skis.
Concessions is something that someone else brought up, and I will concur
with them. We have never felt too much need for a natural park to go into
concessions. I know there is a certain amount that most people feel are
necessary. The public that use the beach that are residents will bring their
own water, their own snacks, if they want to stay long enough in order to eat
or whatever the case may be. If you do go into concessions, try to keep it as
low key as possible, because if you don' t you've already got another job to
pick up trash after the people finish throwing their cans this way and their
potato chip bag the other way. It's an education process to try to get the
people to pick up after themselves.
There are a couple of other things that I wanted to mention. I do not
feel that 50 percent of the people that go to this beach are from Lee County
or are from out of State. But, if they are, it is because the signage at the
road is so small most people don' t realize that there even happens to be a
beach in there.
The other subject I wanted to touch on, was when you're talking about the
removal of the exotics. I know, because I have been working for years now
with the State Park system and I know how the State feels as far as the
removal of exotics and returning everything to it's natural Florida
vegetation. However, there is a problem for anyone going a beach in the State
of Florida. There's a tremendous amount of revealing today about skin cancer
which is caused because people are in the sun too much. Now, when you are
removing the exotics, please do it in installments. So, when you remove them,
prepare that as a portion that as you take one out, you've already planted
something else in the vicinity before it is taken out. You've actually got a
lease for 50 years so you've got 49 more years in order to finish it. There's
a good many of us that'll be dead long before then. Incidentally! As far as
the basic plan is concerned, we are very much in agreement with it. It's very
much like what we had in mind years ago when it was contemplated even being
purchased, and how we hoped that most of it would be developed, and we think
there's been an excellent job done!
21
MRS. NAIDA EISENBUD: I'm Naida Eisenbud, I'm a resident of Barefoot Beach.
In the beginning we talked about the financial impact concern that you have
for the improvements. I should say, first hand, that this is terrific plan.
It's beautiful! it's well done! I'm a plant person, and I'm delighted with
everything that has been proposed. About the financial impact and your
concern for the money, perhaps required. I wasn' t around in 1987 when this
was decided upon. At that time, was there any discussion of when you agreed
or signed the Lease for the State, was there any discussion about financial
responsibility in maintaining it? Why are we concerned now? Didn' t you
expect these things to happen?
MR. MURDO SMITH: The State has had these requirements for quite some time and
I think that the County must assume some responsibility for some of these
improvements. But, I think like everybody said, this is a broad plan for the
Preserve, and it doesn' t have to happen overnight. We can work through the
budgetary problems, and hopefully with the assistance of the volunteers and
CABB we can make a dent in those things. But, as far as the funding
obligations, I'm sure that the County had some realization, of whose going to
be of some impact.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Thank you very much Mrs. Eisenbud. Mrs. Skinner, did
you have something to say.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I can' t speak fully for the County, but I would like to
explain the County's position on funding. Right now, as you know, we're into
a Recessionary Era. I've been with the County 22 years, and I've never seen
budgets quite as tight, and people being expected to do a lot more work than
usual and so forth. We also have some taxpayers out there, that any project
that comes up now that needs funded, they're against. This is not going on
just in Naples, it's going on everywhere. So, the County does know what
they're responsibilities are here, but it might be a slower development than
some people are expecting.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Is there any other public comment? (no response) OK.
If there's no other public comment at this time, we'll close the Public
Hearing, and we will begin a Board discussion towards a motion.
PUBLIC DISCUSSION CLOSED
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Just a couple of comments. I can see how much work
went in that. I've one small question that has to do with the Rangers. I
noted in the Plan that you are proposing that the Rangers be qualified as Law
Enforcement Officers. Will they be State Certified? Do you have to go
through the Police Academy?
MR. GARY FRANCO: That is correct.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: OK. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Just to share a couple of my thoughts. All other things
22
being equal, I would in some respects like to defer this issue, but I don' t
think that's very practical, because the County Board's going to meet in
November and I think they deserve our input, and we don' t have another meeting
scheduled and this is a Special Meeting for this purpose. So, maybe with
respect to some of these issues, they'll have to get worked out between now an
County Board approval regardless.
It seems to me, just from listening to the comments that we concur in the
concept that's presented by the plan, and the Audience and the Board pretty
much endorse the concept of preservation. Extremely low intensity, and
prevention of development, the regulation of the uses. So, I think in that
sense, we're all pretty much in harmony. Mr. Fogg spoke about the out-parcel
and the inholding situation. I think that, that issue should get addressed
prior to Plan adoption. I think there's an issue with respect to the
residence on site. Should there be an on site residence or not as part of the
Plan? That was also something that Mr. Fogg had discussed.
Mrs. Maggio addressed the number of issues. She talked in terms of the
exotics. I think there's an issue regarding the cost on the exotic removal.
She had a comment on the Environmental Study which is also something that Mr.
Mueller spoke to. What is the impact of Environmental on the beach, and I
think that much of that work has been done already, and my question would be:
Can it be incorporated into our plans? I think that the County has paid for a
lot of consulting on the environmental issues up there, and I'd like to see
some of that incorporated into the plan.
Mrs. Maggio raised the issue of the access thing. Paying the parking
fee, or no fees, or whatever. I think that's probably part of our County wide
review process when we sit and discuss User Fees. So I don' t know that we
need to specifically address that in the concept of the Plan. Mrs. Ward
mentioned the Permanent Resident, again, this goes to the Ranger issue. I
think another issue is the boating, as it relates to the beach front
environment. Maybe not the backwater because it's not navigable. Speeding
boats and the Jet Ski issue should be addressed.
Mr. Addison had a number of comments that I thought were very very good
comments. and drawing upon his expertise as a Biologist. I especially
concurred with his comment about maximizing the number of parking spaces a 100
and saying that in the Plan, not just providing for 100, but saying this is as
far as we go. He had a comment on having more detail on exotic removal and
the timing of exotics being out before the boardwalk came in. I thought that
was a very good comment. He made the comment regarding signage in the water
areas.
Mrs. Hickman and a couple of the other speakers raised the issue
regarding construction of concessions in the State Preserve area. I think
that's probably an important point that we should discuss a little bit. There
were a number of other issues raised that take place in the context of other
specific discussions we have on a County-wide basis relating to our Park
System, again the User Fees was a good example. The Park Ranger Program I
think was a good example. A couple of others. I think we probably should
discuss how we feel on those issues. I can tell you philosophically where I'm
coming from which is, the minimal amount of intervention in this environmental
system is what we should be striving for, because too often we do things and
we think we're improving by constructing and developing and that's just not
the case. I enjoy the system. I live up in the north side of the County. I
think we need to limit our intervention into this system as much as possible.
We do have to do some exotic removal. I think we ought to have a Plan, but I
think we ought to understand the cost of that, and the effectiveness of that
23
Plan. I don' t want to get started down the road towards exotic removal and
find out that we're into a bottomless pit of expenditure. I want to know
r exactly what that is, and how much it's going to cost us over time.
The boating issues I don' t think are too much issues in that area as long
as you do provide for the boating on the south part of the Preserve. I think
it's a fair trade-off to restricted, in the northerly two thirds of the
Preserve area, and that is pretty much what occurs today from what I've heard
myself.
I'm concerned about the utilities, and the extension of the utilities
both from a cost standpoint and related to development. The less we can
intrude and have to lay in utilities and everything else, I think the better
for the property. I think that's about it. Could we have some further
discussion on those issues?
MR. GIL MUELLER: I have a question that I wanted to ask Murdo, Mr. Chairman.
Correct me on this. I just want to clarify my own thinking on it. The Land
Management Plan as it exists, it's obvious you've anticipated much of what the
State is going to demand. When a Land Management Plan of this type is
submitted to the State, and they review it. What do they customarily do?
Make revisions or suggestions, send it back to you, you alter it, send it back
to them? What's the procedure?
MR. MURDO SMITH: I believe that is the procedure. We'll send it up to them.
They review it. They send back their comments and then we have to respond to
those comments that they put in the Management Plan.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Can we at that time alter in any way, or make additional
revisions, or additions to it, or must you stick to the original commitment?
Now
MR. MURDO SMITH: I think that you could make revisions at that time, but I
think you'd have to let them know what you're revising.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Oh. Sure! Sure! Prior to the time you send it back to
them obviously. So in other words, we do have a little time on this, it isn' t
something that we have to take action on necessarily.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. It's just basically a Draft, and then we'd want to get
it to the BCC so it can go to the State in a timely manner.
MR. GIL MUELLER: When you make proposals In a Land Management Plan of this
nature, it isn' t a positive commitment. They don' t necessarily hold you to
the things that you propose to do. But if they say yes, you must do that
sometime in the future?
MR. LADD RYZIW: Murdo, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a request to make a
little further statement.
MR. LADD RYZIW: I just had a couple of statements from a summarization
standpoint. One I wanted to just touch on, is kind of the purpose of the
Management Plan. Let me just go ahead and reference just exactly what it says
in the Lease Agreement. That the purpose of the Management Plan, is that it
provides a basic guideline for Management activities. It's broad based
Management Plan for activities that will occur in the park for a long period
of time. I'd like to go ahead and just offer a comment that the purpose of
24
the Management Plan, it's very broad based to provide a definition of what
Collier County would plan to do with the Park over a period of years and to
identify certain things. So to say, identification and a definition component
here. I think a lot of the comments that have been made here today refer to a
implementation plan if you will. If you look at the Park as a land
development endeavor, what we're really looking at here is coming up as a
follow up Plan to this particular plan to be approved by DNR is probably
coming with a program for implementation of the Preserve over a period of
years which would encompass probably environmental assessment, or
environmental impact statement areas. Probably the implementation program
would cover a lot of the financing aspects to the Preserve over a period of
years and how Collier County perceives the implementation of the Preserve, the
construction, the design, and so forth occurring in a period of years. How
it's going to be financed and various other very detailed aspects to the
implementation of this concept. That particular program is something I think
will probably cover a lot of the comments that have been made here by this
Board as well as by the public here.
MR. GIL MUELLER: What you're saying, is it's a submission of approval. Your
submitting this for the approval of what you tentatively plan to do. Is that
the essence of it?
<cut to here>
MR. LADD RYZIW: That's correct.
MR. GIL MUELLER: But, you aren' t necessarily committed legally, or otherwise
to doing all the things that are contained in this. You are submitting this
for the State's initial approval?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: For a concept.
MR. GIL MUELLER: But, as far as specifics are concerned, you are not going to
be held by the State to fulfilling those specifics?
MR. LADD RYZIW: Yes. I would tend to agree with you 100 percent, I don' t
don' t think the Staff & DNR is not a position to make any commitments, or as
part of the approval of the Management Plan to make any approvals or
acknowledgments on any specifics. Such as where perhaps a guard house will be
located. People need to keep in mind that this particular implementation Plan
that I keep speaking of, a work plan, or whatever you'd like to call it, keep
in mind that when we start implementing various components, and Collier County
start implementing various components of the Preserve we're looking at as many
25
as probably twelve (13) environmental agencies that get involved in the
various approval processes. So, DNR is the only responsible agency for the
Land Management itself, as kind of a land owner. I also wanted to mention
that it's right in the Lease Agreement that it's broad based. It provides
basic guidelines for an overall management activities and also its subject to
review by the parties every five years.
MR. MURDO SMITH: It could be amended, but they have to approve of the
amendment.
MR. GIL MUELLER: In other words if we were to make a motion to accept this
concept, this proposal, and it went to the next level of being submitted to
the State, there would be the opportunity at later date for revisions
providing it would be submitted to the State. Is that the procedure?
MR. LADD RYZIW: I would say absolutely. I would say yes. I think what's
important for this Board to recognize as well as the public in opinion, is the
generalized uses that Collier County's proposing. The uses for the land
itself. I think that's extremely important! I think the boating issue, I
think the overall usage. The detailed issues of perhaps the level of detail
of exotic removal, the exact location perhaps of the guard house, and those
type of things will around for quite a few years. But I think the general
type uses of the Jet Skiing, the boat access, and the amount of vehicular
traffic, parking lots, those general type uses out here on a land mass is
going to be extremely important. It is going to be extremely scrutinized by
DNR. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Just a second. Now, Mr. Ryziw, I have a little trouble
with what you are saying. Basically what I hear you saying is, "Well, we
don' t have to go to the tenth level of detail in what we're reviewing" , and I
appreciate that. I understand what you're trying to accomplish here, because
we obviously don' t have all the environmental assessments in hand, and the
habitat surveys and all that type of thing. But, on the other hand, I think
that we need to have a level of detail. This Plan ought to have a section on
implementation. Just if it's a broad statement on how we're going to do that,
because if we don' t understand the feasibility of implementation, I think it
makes it more difficult to understand what it is we're approving in terms of a
plan. We have to know that we can do what it is we're talking about doing.
MR. LADD RYZIW: Mr. Chairman, I didn' t mean to dismiss it as being a separate
plan. It could be linked to this overall general management plan. It's a
decision of the Department of Parks and Recreation.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: There's a lot of input being made by the public here,
which I thought were excellent ideas. As we vote on this plan, I don' t. . . You
know, we're to the point of decision. These people came here to speak, and
they had a lot of input, it was good input, I think the County Commission
ought to be aware that these are some of the things that the public is
thinking about when they review this plan. I don' t want to get away from that
either. Do you know what I'm saying here?
MR. LADD RYZIW: I agree with you.
*ftwo, (end of Tape #2-B)
26
MR. LADD RYZIW: What I feel comfortable with saying here, is that the overall
Management Plan that Staff has put together, I believe it's and excellent
overall Plan. Very broad based, it goes for a definition, and identification.
Keep in mind, more importantly, that the underlying purpose of the Management
Plan is to put forth Collier County's admission statement, objective, and
purposes. That's how I'm going, in disagreement. Keep in one thing in mind,
that the implementation period for this Preserve, no one has really
established that yet. As Murdo mentioned, it's going to be over a period of
time. It may occur in 10, 15, or 20 years. So, I think the follow up
document to the Management Plan is so much more of a Implementation Plan.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Or that could be part of this though.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Murdo, what do you need then? Do you need a motion from
this Board as far as this thing is concerned?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. Well, we have to go before the BCC to present this to
the State. What we would like, is approval from you to do that. If you want
us to put in specific things, we could try to accommodate some of those things
that the public has brought up. They've brought up some, like the Board has
said, some excellent concerns and questions, and I think we can get together
with the consultants and see if we can work on some of these concerns that
they have before we submit it to the BCC.
MR. GIL MUELLER: You don' t need us to specify any of those particular things
that you considered?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. I've been taking some pretty decent notes on. . .
MS. GENEVA TILL: That out parcel, there. It seems to me that we should. . .
That should be something that if there's a condemnations suite or something
that should come before we start any of the other things with that. We surely
don' t want a Condominium, we don' t want anything that's going to destroy what
we have there. If something can be done first, that should come first before
we start on any of it. That includes the Guard <02.4> Condemnation Suite on
that!
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. Well, we'll check to see what the County Attorneys
Office's feeling is on that out parcel, if it's going to be a negative, or
whatever.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I'll make a motion that this Board advise the Board of
County Commissioners that they accept this Land Management Plan Draft for
Barefoot Beach Preserve. Accept the concept of this Plan then.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. We have a motion.
MS. GENEVA TILL: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Seconded by Mrs. Till. Now, discussion on the motion.
Can we make some reference to the other comments and concerns that were
brought forward today? Not that we have to specify each one, but I think that
those have to be transmitted to the County Board and also worked on as part of
the process between not and the time of the County Board Meeting.
27
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well , I'll make an Addendum to that motion that Murdo
incorporate those suggestions and those comments by our speakers today, and
submits this for County Board Commission approval.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. In other words, that they be considered by staff
prior to County Commission approval, and that the Plan address the issues that
have been presented by the audience and also by the Board Members?
MR. GIL MUELLER: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Mrs. Till, It's your second on the motion.
MS. GENEVA TILL: I' ll accept the Addendum.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. We have a motion and a second. Is there any further
discussion by the Board Members? (no response) OK. If there's no further
discussion by the Board Members, the motion is to recommend approval in
concept of the Plan as prepared by the Staff for Management of the Barefoot
Beach Preserve, and to further have the Staff review the comments that have
been made by the audience participants and by the PARAB Board members prior to
submission to the County Board and to make provisions or alternative
provisions in the plan accordingly. Is that a fair characterization of the
motion?
MR. GIL MUELLER: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK, It there's no further discussion, then I'd like to
take a vote. All in favor, signify by saying I. . . Was that unanimous? Mrs.
Thomas? Unanimous? OK. That motion passes 5-0. That's unanimous. OK. I'd
like to thank everybody for appearing today, and I know it takes a lot of time
out of your days too, and this is very helpful input!
MR. MURDO SMITH: OK. Thank you very much.
B. USER FEES:
MR. GIL MUELLER: During the meeting on Wednesday, October 23, Murdo had
mentioned that he had contacted Mr. Dorrill and asked him. He polled the
Board, determined whether we should discuss User Fees and you had not
heard at that point. However, I think you said that you were going to
pursue it. You're going to talk about it. He called me this morning, and
that's one of the things I've discussed with him, and I asked him whether
or not he felt that it would be a good idea if this board discussed User
Fees. Neil Dorrill totally approved of that, and I asked him if he would
pass that word on to you at today's meeting. I have a feeling that he did
not have the opportunity to do so, because he had to leave early.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: He has meeting with some of the Commissioners. I
have a meeting with him in the morning though. So, if there's anything
that you would like me to talk to him about.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, in as much that he did not have the opportunity to
formally pass that on to Murdo, I'm bringing the subject up. Murdo might
want to confirm with him. . .
28
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I brought it up all ready to Mr. Dorrill and Ms.
Pike, his Assistant, and they told me to review some memos and Board
information going back to that item that where it was said that the BCC
would like for us to have the. . . There was a memo from Commissioner Volpe
that came down, and wanted a 15 member Task Force, etc. Then PARAB came
back and said that you thought you were the Board, that you were doing
this, the Board was already in place, and he said he thought that was a
good idea if you would invite some other outsiders (i.e. City of Naples
representative) to go ahead and start reviewing and see what we could come
up with, with a unified, maybe a beach access fee, or not fee, or whatever
the feeling of the people that were involved in this study. But, he would
like for you all to go ahead with the study.
MR. GIL MUELLER: So, can this be placed on the Agenda for the November
meeting then?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: For the Board Agenda?
MR. GIL MUELLER: For this Board's Agenda.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: This Board. Yes. I started to say you don' t want to
go to the Board. . . Murdo, that's. . . I don' t want to set your Agenda Kim,
if that's all right with you all, and discuss how you want to proceed with
that.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: We're very anxious to get into a discussion of that
issue.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: OK. The Productivity Committee as you know, has
highly recommended that we do this. But, there are a lot of objections.
All kinds.
MR. GIL MUELLER: To what?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: To the Fees being charged. They call the beach as
God's gift to us and we shouldn' t charge for that.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: We're willing to take the issues on.
MR. GIL MUELLER: That's what Mr. Dorrill said this morning, and my
comment to him was, that I think we've got to standardize these fees. I'm
not necessarily we've got to charge certain fees at certain places. But,
I think we've got to have some standardization.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Exactly! Are you going to charge at some beaches
and not at others? I mean see here you go, and the argument is that you
go to the expense of paying this person to collect fees, and it doesn' t
even pay the salary of the person that you hired to collect the fees.
Well, it pays part of it.
MR. MURDO SMITH: It pays most of everybody's fees.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Would you be here to participate in that discussion?
You obviously have some very positive thoughts on it. I think you could
29
contribute a great deal.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I can' t. I'm just telling you all the things I get
telephone calls about on this at my office. But, people have real strong
feelings, and I'm telling you when you start this Public Hearing, the
process, you're going to be blasted from this side and that side and it's
going to be hard to come up with something that's going to please
everybody.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Well, that's part of the responsibility that we
accept of that <?>.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Exactly!
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: We've always been able to reach a consensus.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, it's an important item on that Productivity Study,
and I think that it has a priority.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: And the BCC wants this done. I mean they want this
reviewed, they want some action taken on it. So, I would say go ahead and
proceed.
MR. GIL MUELLER: There are other topics that we could discuss, such as
the. . . Well, I wrote them down here somewhere. . . But, this one has been
hanging there for quite a number of months and I think we ought to get to
it.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: You all had decided to wait until the Fall when more
people that would be concerned about this would be back. I don' t know if
you want to hold Public Hearings here, if you want to hold them different
places, if you want to schedule them in the Board Room? What are your
plans? Or, do you meet next time to make a plan?
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, do you feel it's important to hold it public? For
us to. . . In the discussion of unifying and standardizing fees, to the best
degree possible for at least similar sites. Do you think it's necessary
for us to have an elaborate Public Discussion on this?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I think that's what they are looking for. They want
input from all interested or concerned citizens. From the City, from
Marco, from every place that there are beaches in the area. They want the
people that are accessing those beaches to know there's Public Hearings
and be able to attend. In places that may be central located would be.
The central location might be the Board Room.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well then, let me ask you another question. Do you. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: We're talking about Boat Ramp Fees and everything. I
know what you're saying.
MR. GIL MUELLER: That's what I'm going to say. We have Boat Rental
sites, we have beaches, we have tennis courts, we have various categories
of user facilities. Were you thinking that we would just discuss Beach
30
User Facilities or encompassing the entire. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: No. I think you're going to have to do the boat ramp
and the beach. I don' t think you need to go too far afield in who is
going to pay fees to play Baseball, and who is going to pay fees to do
tennis. And that kind of thing. I think you're going to get so wide
spread that you're going to go off in other directions. But, I think
you're going to set the precedent by establishing a uniform, whatever, not
to do, or to do. Whatever you come up with will probably interface with
the charges for the other services at the Parks or relate to.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: One thing we may want to keep in mind, is we've got
three Board Member expirations on term coming up that are imminent, and
mine's one of them, I think. Who else?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Mrs. Till, and Mr. Clendenon.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: So, I'm sure there will be re-appointments, but on
the other hand. To the extent that there may not be, we may. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: You'll have new Board Members maybe, unless. . .
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: All I'm saying is, you don' t want to get foot on
either side of the fence, so that part of the discussion occurs with
certain Board Members and part of is it occurs with others.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I think it would be very unproductive to. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Wait until all this is set.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, that and I can' t envision for example, new Board
members coming into this thing. Assuming that there might be new Board
members. I hope there won' t be and I hope that we retain the same crew.
But, if we had new Board Members, to take this issue up, and do a good job
on it. I think it would be chaotic.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Well, you're also going to have to consider what
Commissioner Volpe wants, and the fact that he wants some organizations to
be involved in this.
MS. GENEVA TILL: Well, see that's where I. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: You see. You're going to have other opinions coming
in anyway.
MR. GIL MUELLER: What other organizations does he want?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: City of Naples, because the beach parking with the
City he wants brought in with this too.
MR. GIL MUELLER: In other words, does he want these people notified
before the November meeting, that we are going to be. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Yes. Whenever we are going to have the public
31
meeting. I think you probably need one meeting of your own people here to
set something in place. Schedule the Public Hearing Meetings and where
you're going to have them, and what you're going to discuss, more or less.
What do you think, Kim? I'm not Chairman.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Well, we've tried to do this a couple of times, and
we seem to keep going back and forth with it. Back in July or June, I
think I was saying we really ought to have right down at the County Court
House, evening meetings, schedule three of them, or two of them, and start
the discussion. Get it resolved.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I think you're right. Do you think you ought to pin
down exactly what you're going after?
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I don' t think our scope should go much beyond the
beach issues and the boat ramp issues, those two things.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Then you're going to have to advertise, say where and
when it's going to be, and it's open to the public.
MR. MURDO SMITH: We could do the same we did for this meeting. We
advertised in the Naples Daily News. There was going to be a public
meeting for this specifically, and what we could do, is make sure that the
Naples Daily News gets the Press Release that states what we'd be
discussing.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I think we ought to do that right away, and have
those meetings in November, if we're going to do it, because my fear is if
you had a different board member and that. . . You know, so you'd have the
meetings and then you'd have to vote on issues after the meetings with new
Board members. That doesn' t. . .
MR. GIL MUELLER: No it doesn' t. . . That's a big problem. What if that
happens, were we to have a meeting in November or a meeting in December
and then possibly a new Board member in January, it's going to be chaotic.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Maybe your member might want to extend their term of
service by three months.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Kim, why don' t you and Murdo get together, decide
what we want to talk, make up and agenda, pick a date, advertise it in the
paper, and we'll be there.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK.
MS. GENEVA TILL: I've already submitted my application back and talked
with Ms. Filson today.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Tomorrow is the last day, right?
MR. MURDO SMITH: I believe it's the end of this month.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, I don' t want to have to get into this thing in
November and December, and then find ourselves with a bunch of new faces
32
possibly in January or February, and then have to go through this whole
business again with new people and educate them. To me that would be a
disaster.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: If we do this, I would do it in November.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Make up an Agenda. Pick a date. Advertise it.
Write me a letter, as you usually do.
MR. MURDO SMITH: We could go ahead and schedule it for our next meeting,
and that way we could advertise it, and tell everybody at the regular
scheduled meeting their going to discuss beach parking fees.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: No, I think it should be a separate meeting.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Do you think so?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Oh yeah. I think public hearings should be.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I would do an evening meeting even.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: An evening meeting, and just limit it to this. . .
MR. GIL MUELLER: OK. How soon can we get something like that off the
ground considering the advertising factor and so forth.
MR. MURDO SMITH: It could be relatively quick. A couple weeks.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well shall we tenatively set a date then?
MR. MURDO SMITH: OK. When is Thanksgiving?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Well you're going to have to call Barbara Pedone and
find out when you can get the Board Room. When it's not vacant.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Let's try. . . What night is good? Wednesday night?
Thursday night? Tuesday night?
MS. GENEVA TILL: Monday or Tuesday.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Tuesday night the Board might still be in a meeting
there. Wednesday night they have meetings. Monday night or Thursday
night would be a good night.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Do you have a calendar there Murdo?
MR. MURDO SMITH: No I don' t I can go get one though.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I've got one.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Why don' t we do it on Monday night?
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: And before Murdo goes to press on the Agenda, you
make sure that you approve of it first.
33
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: There is three hot issues. That's the Beach Parking
Sticker issue. Should be continue to pay all that money for County to go
free. The unified beach parking for all of our beaches, and the Boat Ramp
Fees. That's the three issues.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I was under the impression, Mrs. Skinner, that the Board
had already decided to pay that, whatever it is.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: They're studying it right now. I think Mr. Woodruff,
Mr. Dorrill, and Mr. Yonkowski, and their Finance Director are all talking
about what they honestly should pay. What are legitimate charges and so
forth.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, if they are going to be deciding this. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Let me find out tomorrow if we even need to address
that issue at this point. OK.
MR. MURDO SMITH: I think we have to be very careful too, on what's going
to happen if the City starts charging County residents to get stickers.
OK. We may have people here voicing their concerns about beach parking
fees. So I think that, that's going to be an issue that you have to be
concerned with, because the County and the City right now are at odds
about what they're going to pay for this, because last year the payment
that we made was approximately 160 some thousand dollars, and this year
it's supposed to be more. I've got 96 budgeted, and we've heard anywhere
upwards $216,000. So, I think we have to be careful of how we. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Not only that, the City right now is plugging tickets
or marking tickets some way, that they are only good for six months
because this think is in limbo.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Why should the taxpayers of Collier County pay to allow
certain individuals to go free to a specific beach when the other beaches
they have pay.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Then the County residents would say. . .
MR. GIL MUELLER: Would you explain that to me Mrs. Skinner, I know you
know all about this.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: No, I don' t know all about it, but you have people on
the other hand saying those beaches are in the County and they should have
access to them. Free access to those beaches.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, then they should have free access to Clam, and
Vanderbilt, and Tigertail.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Oh yes! They feel that way!
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. Very, very strongly!
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Look! Let's do this. We've got to approve the
contract don' t we?
34
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes, I would like to talk to you about the contract for
the bath house.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. We've left this, that we're going to establish
an agenda. I'm going to do that with Murdo. We're going to get dates,
we're going to have Hearings, and I'll give the Board the dates and times
and the agendas, and we're going going to have meetings. Do you want to
have one? Two? Let's do two.
MS. GENEVA TILL: One prior to.
MR. GIL MUELLER: It won' t be necessary to talk to Mr. Dorrill? We have
your approval to proceed with that?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Go ahead!
MR. GIL MUELLER: OK
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I'll tell him in the morning, and if he says now,
I'll get back to you.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: You know, and that is if he does say no.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well told me yes, this morning on the telephone.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Let's make sure though that we've got that
authority. I do not want to be a renegade situation.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: You are not going to be. I won' t let that happen
either.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: All right! That aside. We have a contract we have
to consider.
C. CONTRACT FOR THE BAREFOOT BEACH BATHHOUSE:
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. At the last PARAB Meeting last week, I presented a
Bid for a Bathhouse a Barefoot Beach and the Board questioned some of the
amounts in there for specific items (i.e. the Building, and the
walkaways) . We went back and reviewed the Bid. In the bid document
itself, the gentlemen who was the low bidder, stated on the bid document
that decking was included in the boardwalks. We would like have the PARAB
Board recommend that the lowest responsive bidder be awarded the bid,
based on those assumptions. However, I have another little kicker I want
to through in there. We want to try to go back and see if we can get that
down to a little bit. . . Well, there's two aspects. There's the
Bathhouse, and then there's a Dune Crossover Walkway that is in there
also. One is part of the whole Dune Walkway system, but it's being used
as a handicapped access. The other part is the Bathhouse. The Bathhouse
was actually only like about $100,000.00 the rest of it was for the Dune
Clearing, and so forth. So, what we would like to do, it go back to that
bidder, and see if we get it reduced some. We'll have to say like about
$160,000 or $150,000 in that neighborhood. What I would like to do
though, is not to hold up the process, if you could give us your blessing.
35
Say, "OK. Go with the lowest responsive bidder" , which would be that
Vanderbilt Bay and then see if we can make some adjustments in the scope
of it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Maybe I'm a little more keyed into the fairness issue
in bidding, but if you go back and open discussions with the low guy,
don' t you have a responsibility to give the other people fair opportunity
to. . .
MR. MURDO SMITH: There's a County Purchasing Policy that you can
negotiate to some point with the bidders.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: It sounds like a pretty significant negotiation.
It's not even up to the amount, the Purchasing Policy says that we have
the right to negotiate. It's basically about 25%. That's when they start
getting saying, "Well now you're really starting to cut back on some
people's bids" .
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. So, it's within our policies. We're OK there.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Next question. Vanderbilt Bay? Did you do any
checking? They have not done any work for the County? Did they have
similar projects? Are they qualified?
MR. MURDO SMITH: I checked with Ladd, who has been working with that for
us. He said that they're a good company and so forth. He's checked them
out. They thought that the prices that they gave were very competitive.
He's in the Transportation Department.
MR. MURDO SMITH: If we're going to have a special meeting in November,
maybe what we could do, is I could fill you in on what's happening with
that Bid at that time too. I don' t want to. . . I know your concerns, Kim,
and if you want to bring it back at that time. We won' t do anything that
is against County Purchasing Policy. You could have a motion if you want,
or if you want to wait until the next meeting, that's fine with me.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I guess what it all comes down to is we are relying
upon you to steer us in the right direction, and I have faith in you doing
that. I just. . . This has been a pet peeve with County Bidding
Procedures, is that if they know the process, then anybody can come in and
low bid.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Right. Then you go the opposite way.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Yes. So, As long as you're satisfied we're staying
within those procedures.
MR. MURDO SMITH: We would not go beyond the County Procedures.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I want to put the issue to bed. Is there a motion?
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: I make a motion that we award the contractor the
36
lowest bid, but having them subject to being about to go in with further
negotiations within County Purchasing Policies.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Motion by Mr. William Clendenon. Is there a
second. The motion made by Mr. William Clendenon is that we accept the
lowest responsive bidder, subject to being about to go in with further
negotiations within County Purchasing Policies. That's Mr. Clendenon's
motion. Is there a second to that?
MS. GENEVA TILL: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Seconded by Mrs. Till. Is there any further
discussion? (no response) If there's no further discussion, all in favor
signify by saying "I" . . . Unanimous. OK. Now, are we all set, or is. . .
MS. CHERRYLE THOMAS: I don' t know anything about it. I wasn' t here, so
do you want my vote for yes? Or, do you want me just to abstain?
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: It's your decision as to what you do on your vote.
MS. CHERRYLE THOMAS: Well, I'll leave it up to Murdo. I'm requesting his
judgment. I wasn' t here. I didn' t go through the packet, so I don' t know
what you're all talking about.
MR. MURDO SMITH: We're talking about the Bathhouse at Barefoot.
MS. CHERRYLE THOMAS: I can abstain or vote, but it's his opinion.
MR. MURDO SMITH: OK. We could probably have you abstain, since you don' t
feel comfortable with it. That would be the best way to do it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Four to zero with one abstention.
D. FRANK MACKLE COMMUNITY CENTER PUNCH LIST:
MR. GIL MUELLER: One last comment, for me at least. I don' t know if
you're aware of this, but there is still a number of minor things that
have to be accomplished at FMCP. I talked to Bill Flynn, who is the
County man, and he tells me that he has called Lynch every week for seven
weeks asking them to please come out and finish these little bitty things.
They have not done so. My question to him was, do we owe them any money?
He said yes, we owe. We owe them $15,000. But, obviously it has no
effect on Lynch Construction. How can we avoid that in future instances?
This is a good instance where perhaps it might be avoided, and a
contractor simply not coming back and finishing the job, and not caring
particularly about the $15,000 that we're owing. Can that be incorporated
into a contract some way that he will relinquish that amount as of a given
time.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Oh sure! We can tap into that retainage if he does not
do the job, or else we have a bond. . .
MR. GIL MUELLER: Was that the case with the Mackle Park expansion?
37
MR. MURDO SMITH: We can do that. I have to get with Mr. Flynn. I
haven' t talked to Mr. Flynn on that.
MR. GIL MUELLER: This doesn' t amount to a thousand dollars worth of
effort.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. I'll check on that with Mr. Flynn in the morning
and see what we can do.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I think Lynch should be told, "You either get out here
and you do those things or you're out $15,000.00".
IV. ADJOURNMENT:
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Do we have a motion for adjournment?
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: I'll make the motion.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Motion made by Mr. Clendenon for adjournment. Is
there a second?
MR. GIL MUELLER: I'll second.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Seconded by Mr. Mueller. All in favor. . . We stand
adjourned.
MS:rtd:003859
iomr
38
COLLIER COUNTY PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD AGENDA
OCTOBER 30, 1991
The Parks and Recreation Advisory Board will hold a Special Meeting on
Wednesday, October 30, 1991, 2:00 p.m. at the Golden Gate Community Park in
the Administrative Office located at 3300 Santa Barabara Boulevard.
2:00 p.m. I. CALL TO ORDER:
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG:
2:05 p.m. III. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS:
A. Discussion of Draft Land Use/Management Plan for
the Barefoot Beach Preserve.
3:05 p.m. IV. ADJOURNMENT:
MS:rtd:003833
I
SPECIAL MEETING
411:1; MINUTES (Long Version)
PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office
Naples, Florida
Wednesday, October 30, 1991
PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman
Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice Chairman
Ms. Geneva Till
Mr. William Clendenon
Ms. Cherryle Thomas
I. CALL TO ORDER:
The meeting was called to order at 2:08 p.m.
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG:
III. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS:
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: This is a special meeting called for the purpose of
discussion of a draft of the Land Use/Management Plan for the Barefoot
Beach Preserve. We have two members that'll be coming. We have a
presentation by staff. Would you like to start with the Staff
Presentation please.
A. DISCUSSION OF DRAFT LAND USE/MANAGEMENT PLAN FOR THE BAREFOOT BEACH
PRESERVE:
MR. MURDO SMITH: First I'd like to recognize a couple people in the
audience. We have the County Manager, Neil Dorrill. Martha
Skinner, the Acting Public Service Administrator. and Ladd Ryziw
from the Transportation Department. Chairman Kobza and Board
Members, our Department would like to present today for your review,
the first draft of the Land Management Plan for the property leased
from the State located directly south of the County's Barefoot Beach
Preserve. This property, leased from the state, is approximately
156 acres, and has 5,000 lineal feet of beach. The lease is for 50
years. The Land Management Plan is a requirement by the state, and
a draft must be submitted to the State for their review by the end
of November, 1991. Our staff, and Coastal Engineering Consultants
have prepared a draft. At this time I would like to have staff
present the Draft Management Plan for your review. This
presentation will take approximately 20 minutes, and then we could
have discussion from the Board after that.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Good Afternoon Mr. Chairman and members of the
Parks and Recreation Advisory Board. My name is Gary Franco, I'm
the Collier County Parks Superintendent. The item listed on the
Agenda today, is the Conceptual Land Use/Management Plan for
11:1 Barefoot Beach Preserve. Barefoot Beach Preserve is located in
Northwestern Collier County, and is one of the few remaining
1
undeveloped barrier Islands in the the State, in Southwest Florida. It is
bounded on the north by the Lely P.U.D. , to the west by the Gulf of Mexico, to
the south by Wiggins Pass and Delnor-Wiggins State Recreation area, and to the
east by the tidal creeks and backwater swamp area. Let me give you a brief
history of the preserve. The County section encompasses 186 acres of
environmentally sensitive lands. It was purchased in 1987 from the Lely
Corporation in the tune of 3 .1 million dollars. Located just to the south of
that is the leased portion of the preserve, and that encompasses 156 acres.
Prior to 1972, this area was targeted for development. However, due to the
lack of Utilities, development did not occur. In 1972, and in subsequent
years, the State began to acquire parcels of that land under the
environmentally endangered lands act. In 1990, the State and County entered
into an Agreement whereas the County could use this portion of land for 50
years. It is a Lease Agreement, and in lieu of that developed a Conceptual
Land Management Plan. Can you please turn your attention to the existing
Conditions map. Presently, this is our entrance gate (pointing to the map)
located at the Preserve. The is our access road. Phase I construction is
complete. This is a paved parking area existing of 67 spaces, and 42 spaces
off the road parking. We also have three dune walkovers that provide access
for beach goers. The Coastal Construction control line runs roughly in this
area, and all development is to the west of that line, and in areas targeted
for exotic removal. If I can call you attention to this area right here
(again, pointing to the map) , the key management element or the key plan for
the Management Plan or the two key elements of it, is (1) Passive Recreation,
and (2) Preservation. This whole area is invaded by exotics. Thus, we have a
development plans to remove the exotics from this area. There are basically
five ecological or environmentally zones located within the preserve. They
are: (1) Pioneer Zone, (2) Before Dune, (3) Coastal Strand, (4) The Maritime
Hammock, and (5) the Backwater Tidal Area. What I'd like to do now, is have
Ranger Klein, she is a Park Supervisor, make a short presentation and slide
presentation depicting these zones and the Wildlife within those communities.
Nan?
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: Good Afternoon Chairman, and members of the Parks and
Recreation Advisory Board. My name is Nan Klein, I'm the Park Ranger
Supervisor for the Collier County Parks and Recreation Department. The
Collier County Parks and Recreation Department is pleased and proud to manage
Barefoot Beach Preserve for the residents and visitors of Collier County. The
Preserve itself is a prime example of a sub-tropical coastal strand, and
mangrove estuarine system on a barrier island. It is one of the few remaining
undeveloped coastal areas in southwest Florida. I believe it's actually one
of only three in our area. There are five plant communities within the
Preserve. Moving from west to east we first encounter the beach and pioneer
zone. The beach itself appears to be a very sterile environment. During the
summer months, however, the beach is in a flurry of activity. Sea Turtles
come ashore to nest from May to September. Collier County Park Rangers and
dedicated volunteers work through the night to screen and protect the nests
from predators. The female turtle returns to the gulf after laying her eggs,
never to return to this nest again. She repeats the process several times
during the nesting season, and then doesn' t lay eggs again for two to three
years. In about 60 days, up to 150 hatchlings emerge from each nest, and
scramble to the water. This year, at Barefoot Beach Preserve, we had 62
nests. There were 4,812 healthy babies that made it to the water. Only 1 in
100 of these hatchlings will survive to maturity in 15 to 20 years. During
2
these times, Parks Rangers offer guided nature walks to the public and hopes
of sharing this phenomena. The beach is a fascinating place for passive
recreational past times. In addition to swimming and sunning, the area is an
excellent spot for bird watching. A variety of shore birds live upon and nest
hear including the endangered Least Tern. Southern Bald Eagles can be seen
frequently here. There is a pair that nests east of the Preserve and they use
the entire Preserve for hunting mostly, and perching. The Pioneer Zone which
is part of the beach, is where we begin to see stabilizing vegetation. Beach
Morning, Gloria, Railroad Vine, Beach Elder, and Inkberry are commonly seen
here. The Fore Dune has many of the plants seen in the Pioneer Zone, with the
most valuable being the Sea Oats. These plants have long roots that help hold
the sand in place and protect the beach from wind and wave erosion. The Sea
Oats catch wind blown sand and create a larger and stronger Dune. The process
is repeated over and over all the while increasing the width of the beach and
protecting the preserve and thus the mainland from storm damage. In Barefoot
Beach Preserve the typical Fore Dune vegetation, and the Dune itself on the
northern portion of the Preserve is virtually eliminated by the presence of
Australian Pine Trees. Many years ago, these trees were introduced to South
Florida, and they are not native to the area. There's no natural competition
to keep their growth in check. Australian Pines have a very shallow and
extensive root system. Their rapid growth and size quickly overshadow and
kill native vegetation on the Dune. Additionally, their root system acts as a
barrier to natural wind and wave action. Sometimes creating erosion of the
beach. Because of the shallow root system, these trees easily topple in
storms creating danger to life and property. The tree roots also create a
barrier to nesting sea turtles. Florida Park Service Rangers and Collier
County Park Rangers have in the past several years eliminated thousands of
young and mature Australian Pine trees by hand pulling and mechanical means.
In addition to sea oats, the Coastal Strand Zone exhibits small trees, such as
Sea Grape, Prickly Pare Cactus, and a variety of wildlife such as Raccoons.
We have Bobcat and Gray Foxes their, Osprey, and an almost endless variety of
amphibians. Traveling east in the preserve at a slightly higher elevation is
the Maritime Hammock. This plan community is characterized by broadly shaped
trees, and the Hammock provides increased shelter, shade, and humidity. In
addition to the wide variety of plants, there's an array of wildlife. The
threatened Gofer Tortoise feeds throughout the Preserve but lives primarily in
the Hammock. These Tortoises live in extensive underground boroughs in
families. The boroughs can provide homes for up to 29 other species of
animals. In the Eastern portion of the Hammock there's a habitat for a
variety of tropical hardwood trees and ferns. The Beach and Pioneer zone, the
Fore Dune, Coastal Strand, and the Maritime Hammock combined are about 100
acres of the Entire Preserve. Of this 100 acres, 80 acres are invaded with
exotic vegetation. There is about 80 acres all total of exotics. That's
minus the beach which is about 11 acres. So, you can say roughly the entire
Preserve is invaded. Indigent to Australian Pine Trees, there's extensive
invasion of the Preserve of the Brazilian Pepper. This invasive plant was
introduced to Florida as an Ornamental shrub. Pepper Bushes and trees crowd
out native vegetation at an alarming rate. The eastern portion of the
Preserve is dominated by over 200 acres of mangrove islands and title creeks.
In addition to protecting the mainland coast during storms, the
Mangrove Estuarine systems provide homes, breeding grounds, and nurseries for
up to eighty percent of Florida's seafood. In this area, as well as the Gulf,
you may see Manatees, Sea Otters, or just enjoy a quite day of fishing for
snook, tarpon, or red fish. Collier County Parks Rangers and a number of
3
concerned volunteers are diligently to properly care for these precious
resources. In order to achieve our goal of preservation, several programs
have been implemented, and are planned by the Collier County Parks and
Recreation Department. Park Rangers attempt to educate the public on the
importance of the Preserve. Interpretive displays address a variety of
topics, including sea turtle information, and shelling, gofer tortoises, and
environmental tips. Additionally signage has been installed on Dune
Crossovers explaining the importance of sea oats and sand dunes. Throughout
the year, Ranger guided nature walks are offered to the Public. Walks
encompass area of the beach and Hammock, and give a general overview of the
entire Preserve and it's importance ecologically. Off site presentations are
offered to any interested group requesting this service. Subject matter
ranges from a general overview of the Preserve, to any specific natural
resource related topic within the Preserve. Most off site Programs are
tailored to fit the needs of the group and special emphasis is places on
visitation. Park Rangers patrol the Preserve regularly to encourage visitor
compliance and provide visitor services. Patrol methods include horseback,
walking, and all terrain vehicle. In addition to interpretation, protection,
and visitor services, Park Rangers and Parks and Recreation Maintenance Staff
are assisted in their efforts by volunteers from the Citizens Association of
Bonita Beach, the Friends of Barefoot Beach, and many caring individuals.
Through education, interpretation, and ordinance compliance, the Collier
County Parks and Recreation Department hopes to encourage appreciation and
respect for this magnificent resource. As we all know, it's this appreciation
that will guarantee protection and preservation. Thank you.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Thank you Nan. OK. Let's take a look at the Conceptual
Land Management Plan now. Just to orient everybody, this is our access up
here (pointing to map) or gated up here. One of our first priorities, is dune
preservation zone. Currently it is invaded by exotics. We plan to restore it
back to it's original condition through re-vegetation processes. Existing
already, is our paved parking area, proposed for this year, is a construction
of a bath house with these dune interconnects as an interpretive nature trail
that runs the length of the preserve and also the construction of the third
parking area. That's to encompass roughly 44 cars, and it will be porous in
nature. The next proposal that we do have, is to construct a new parking
area roughly at the County Line. Right there at the State and County Line.
That's to encompass about 100 spaces. access will be provided throughout the
preserve area 800 feet, and will be connected through our dune boardwalk which
is our interpretive nature trail. We also do have plans for a restroom and
observation area located in the southern portion of the Preserve and then also
to allow this construction to take place at the southern portion of Wiggins
Pass. That again, is just our Dune Boardwalk. Let's for a minute, talk about
the Maintenance support facility. We think it is vital here in Parks and
Recreation that we have a Ranger Resident on duty in that area. Too often
times there are too many illegal activities taking place within the confines
of the Preserve. Whether it be camping, poaching, illegal fishing, dune
destruction, etc. So, what we are proposing, is two new positions. Two
full-time Rangers. One to be a Resident Certified Law Enforcement Officer.
In these austere times we have also given thought to the use of Volunteers,
Support Groups, and Community Service Workers to help us provide service to
the public. We would like to also decrease financial obligation to the
Advalorem Tax Base. Finally, we have our interpretive canoe trail running
throughout the Preserve. That will be a minimal financial obligation, and
4
that will be part of our Visitor Services Program. Mr. Chairman, we'd like to
turn the Program back to you for any questions.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. For the benefit of the audience, what we generally
do, is after the staff presentation, we have the Board ask questions directly,
and then we open it up for the Public Hearing and have the public's individual
comments or questions. Then after we close the public hearing, then we go
back to the Board for discussion. So, at this time, what I'd like to do is
begin with Mrs. Thomas. Mrs. Thomas, do you have any specific questions?
MS. CHERRYLE THOMAS: In what fiscal year is this proposed in?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Mrs. Thomas this is over a 50 year period. So, we're not
asking the taxpayers to do this all in one shot. But, there is some phases of
it. This construction to take place this year (1991/92) , is from the Regional
Park Impact Fees.
MR. NEIL DORRILL: In relation to the Bath House Facility, would you show that
to her, and also, that second parking lot, is that in this year's fiscal year?
MR. MURDO SMITH: That's in this year.
MR. GARY FRANCO: That's in this year, and so is the Bath House Facility.
Roughly these areas right here, and the dune-interconnect, and the exotic
removal.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. The Dune Restoration in that northern area is also in
this year's budget.
MR. GARY FRANCO: So, actually, as we're looking at it, we're pretty far well
along in the County owned section of the Preserve.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mrs. Thomas do you have any other questions? Mr.
Clendenon?
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: You say that access to this area is through the Lely
PUD?
MR. GARY FRANCO: That is correct.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Don' t we have to go through a Gate House to get into
that development?
MR. GARY FRANCO: That is correct.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Is that going to be a problem?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Mr. Clendenon, staff here feels that is an issue that has to
be decided by the local governing body and the Collier County Commission. I
don' t think that anybody here today go ahead and try to resolve that issue.
So, we're going to just re-direct that to the Commission.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mrs. Till?
5
MS. GENEVA TILL: I embarrassed. I'm sorry to be late. I tried. I see in
one of these exhibits that this is to be managed as a passive recreational
area. Is that still. . . Now are we still thinking always as a passive
recreational area in this Preserve?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes. Mrs. Till.
MS. GENEVA TILL: That's going to include what now?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Interpretive Nature trails, sun bathing, canoeing, etc.
But, there are two key elements to the Management Plan. That is Preservation
and Passive Recreation.
MS. GENEVA TILL: OK. Now my other question is, you've probably touched on
it, but why is Lely giving the County such an excellent piece of property?
What was there in that? What was the trade-off? Why are we getting this?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Well, actually we purchased this property from the Lely
Corporation in 1987 for 3.1 million dollars.
MS. GENEVA TILL: We have a Lease Agreement, Mrs. Till, with the State for the
southern portion. That's what the State have given us to manage for them.
That's a 50 year Lease.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mrs. Till?
MS. GENEVA TILL: I'm finished, thank you.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mr. Mueller.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I'll just direct my question to Nan. That was a very
thorough presentation, I know we all appreciate it. I'm particularly
impressed and surprised at the amount of wildlife in that area. You made
reference to several species that I was astounded to here existed there.
Bobcats, for example. I was reading in this plan, on page 21, it says
something about bears.
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: The habitat is suitable for black bears, however, because
of the development all around the preserve, and that whole section of Collier
County, the habitat has been reduced such, that their are no bears existing in
the Preserve at this time. There used to be deer and bears out there.
MR. GIL MUELLER: What's your thinking as far as people walking around in
there is concerned, and I'm thinking primarily those little things that
slither along the ground.
Ms. NANNETTE KLEIN: We have some very nice snakes in the Preserve. They are
friendly snakes. Well, there are snakes everywhere Mr. Mueller.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Is there some type of warning to caution people in the event
that there are poisonous snakes there? Are there poisonous snakes there?
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: The habitat is suitable for poisonous snakes.
6
MR. GIL MUELLER: Do we have a sign up there warning people to be cautious and
aware of the fact that there is that type of danger there?
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: No we don' t.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Are people walking in those area?
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: Well, we have people walking on an existing dirt path
through the Preserve. Primarily the visitation is on the beach. But, we do
have walkers in a portion of the Hammock. I've spent a lot of time in the
woods there. I have not seen, personally, any poisonous snakes there. I've
seen some Black Racers. The habitat is suitable to that. I don' t doubt that
there are poisonous snakes there.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Oh. There again, it's simply suitable, they don' t
necessarily exist there. OK. I see. In that walk-over on page 26, Murdo,
did you mention during our last board meeting last week I think it was, that
the walkovers had begun?
MR. MURDO SMITH: We have constructed, Mr. Mueller, three dune crossovers
already in our Portion of the Barefoot Beach Preserve. We're in the process
now, of reviewing and evaluating a bid on the Bath House structure which is up
there. Besides the parking lot, that is the only Construction that we have
done to date up in that area.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I somehow had the impression that the walkovers were in the
process of Construction. Maybe I misunderstood you.
MR. MURDO SMITH: The walkovers are Engineered and Designed at the present
time. They just have not gone out for Bid at the present time.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Speaking of the Construction of the Bath House, wasn' t there
some information that you were going to have for us today concerning the Bath
House?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Is that relevant to this discussion?
MR. MURDO SMITH: It'd be something that would be after this. Yes.
MR. GIL MUELLER: OK. Lastly, on pages 33, 34, 35, and 36 it was talked about
the Ranger that might be considered for there. What are we talking about
money wise in the event this ever became a reality?
MR. MURDO SMITH: You'd be talking about the possibility of some type of
trailer that would probably be in the neighborhood of $10,000.00.
MR. GARY FRANCO: It's not going to be a 3-2 with a pool. Believe me. It's
going to be something like a trailer that they have in State Parks, and a
Generator. That's basically it.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Is that considered a Resident Ranger then?
7
rnk
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes. Anyone who lives on site is considered a Resident
Ranger.
MR. MURDO SMITH: They've be basically on-call 24 hours a day.
MR. GIL MUELLER: This sounds like a pretty expensive undertaking. Doesn' t
it?.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Not really. You may have to purchase a trailer and
generator, but that's about it. It's not going to anything lavish, and then
here's going to be a compound, so to speak, to put equipment. We're not going
to put a lot of money into that. Believe me.
MR. GIL MUELLER: But, you wouldn' t consider this until the park becomes
financially self sufficient. Would you?
MR. GARY FRANCO: No. But, I'm not sure that the Park will become financially
self sufficient. We have not addressed any fees and charges in this area.
MR. GIL MUELLER: It sounds like a pretty substantial financial undertaking
for a full time Resident Ranger on that park.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Currently within the Parks and Recreation, we have 360
acres of Park Land. That is Beaches, Community Parks, and Neighborhood Parks.
That would fit nicely in these 342 acres. So it's a big undertaking. You're
exactly right!
MR. MURDO SMITH: I think what the object of having a full time Ranger there,
Mr. Mueller, would be for protection of the park. We've had some concerns at
night and so forth. There's a lot of negative activities, and so forth going
on up there (i.e. camp fires on the beach, and so forth) . The State does that
a lot in their parks (i.e. Delnor-Wiggins Pass) . They have a on-site Ranger
that basically stays there. They pay him a salary, and he is on call 24 hours
of the day. That's basically the same type of concept that we were trying to
put in this Preserve. To preserve the Beach and so forth. Natural Resources.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I can see what the magnitude of something like that, and the
complexity of that park, that a Ranger of that type would be a necessity.
But, the only thing that concerns me is the cost of doing so, and at the
present time, of course, this is a negative cost situation. I was just
wondering what the timing was, or what you've planned as far as that
particular park was concerned. I presume it won' t be in for quite a while.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Also within the language of the Agreement, we can revisit
priorities every five years. We can modify the language for revisiting
priorities. So, if do not get this accomplished, they we can maybe do it in
the next five year plan, or something. This is all to be done in phases.
It's not just, here it is, and next year, or something like that.
MR. GIL MUELLER: OK. That's all the questions that I have Mr. Chairman.
MS. GENEVA TILL: About this roadway, on this Fencing and Barricading on page
33. That roadway that has been developed scaring the length of the Preserve.
Are the Rangers going to have some kind of authority to stop people from going
8
in there?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes Madam, we will. We have the authority, and they do stop
people now. We went up and placed some natural barrier in front of that road
(i.e. Cabbage Palms) that would stop the people from getting down that road
with their vehicles.
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: There was several accesses. For years, the Preserve was
used as party central. Like we've stated in the Management plan, there's a
road that scars the length of the Preserve. Off that road there were off
shoots all the way in to bring your vehicle to the beach. What we did along
the roadway is we brought in several cabbage palm trees, and basically closed
those off. But, the main road that's scarring the length of the Preserve is
not closed off, because we feel we need that emergency access. We'll go down
there on our ATV's. We use that for horseback patrol, we use it in nature
walks. The Rangers say that I always creep around back there. So, we use it
as a patrol road right now. We don' t bring our trucks down there. We're
trying to get it back together.
MS. GENEVA TILL: But are people still. . . that's. . . route extended. . . has
it slowed down, or. . . ?
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: It's slowed down a lot, and we're trying to keep a handle
on it. But, we're asking for a gate, and a fencing structure so that if
there's an emergency, we can open the gate for EMS or other law enforcement.
But, it's pretty essential really.
I AP
MR. GARY FRANCO: Mrs. Till, the area in question, you're referring to is
right here. However, that is exactly where our elevated nature trail is going
to be constructed. So, actually our access road will be in this neighborhood
here (pointing to the map) . On the plats, it's referred to as Gulf Bay Drive.
MS. GENEVA TILL: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. I'd like to compliment you on your presentation.
Obviously you've put a lot of work into it. That's very evident by the
quality of your presentation. I do have a number of questions that I want to
ask. In reviewing the plan itself and the document that was prepared. First
of all, I want to understand what's the driving the Land Management Plan. Is
this a statutory requirement? Is this a requirement by virtue of our
Agreement with the State? Where exactly does the initiative come from to
develop a plan?
MR. GARY FRANCO: That is in the Agreement with the State Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: So by terms of the Agreement with the State then, we're
required to have a Land Management Plan for the State Preserve areas.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Correct. However, we will like to adopt that, and use it
within the County owned section of the Preserve also. So, we'll have a
comprehensive plan for the whole Preserve area.
( CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: If adopted, would this be incorporated into our
Comprehensive Plan or would it require any County Comprehensive Plan
9
Amendments? Do you know?
MR. MURDO SMITH: This is included, Kim, in our Growth Management plan as a
Regional Park facility. The acres are included in there already. So, that is
already included in that plan.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Are we under any time constraints in adoption of the
Management Plan? Does the Agreement with the State require that we adopt it,
and/or that the County Board adopt it in a certain time frame?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. The Draft has to be submitted to the State by the end
of November. The State has two months to review it and send it back to us
with comments or changes. Then the BCC has to approve it at that time. It
was a year from the signing of the document that we had to present the plan.
We've had an extension. I believe the first one was supposed to be submitted
to the State by June, but we received an extension.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. On page 37 it lists the public hearings, and it
basically, as I read it, recites the hearings before the Parks and Recreation
Advisory Board and then a County Hearing for adoption. I'm concerned that
with something of this level of importance, that all groups have the ability
to have input. Specifically, I'm thinking in terms of avoiding past issues
with Barefoot Beach, and making sure everybody again has that opportunity. I
know we have a lot of people here today from all segments of the area up
there, but my question is, are there any plans to have any public workshops
maybe in that area or involving specifically the community up there? I know
there's a large residential community there as well. Do you have any thoughts
on that?
MR. MURDO SMITH: We didn' t plan on having one. We thought that this would be
this meeting and the meeting at the BCC would be all the necessary public
meetings that we would have for that. But, you know, we can have meetings if
you wish.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Well, the other thing I was thinking in terms of there is
the Draft contemplates a high level of volunteer effort. I think that, you
know, the history in the County has shown that the more the public is involved
and understands this type of plan the more willing volunteers you're going to
get, and the more cooperation. If there's anything along those lines that we
can accomplish it may be worthwhile to have a Public Workshop. I'm just
throwing it out as an idea to you. If it's not feasible, I can understand
that, but if it is feasible, then maybe that's something we can do. I noticed
that page 28 in the plan that it talks about boats, and the prohibition of
boats in the backwater areas and also what is designated as being the swimming
beach. OK. I had two questions that were related to that statement in the
plan. One is this. Historically that beach has had, kind of. . . I don' t know
if you'd call it a reputation, but. . . . . .is known as boaters beach, and I'd
be interested to understand how this type of prohibition would effect the
current boating activity that takes place. Has there been an effort to
understand where that boat traffic is generated, and how it might be impacted.
I know, I think there are fishing activities that take place. I'm not a
fisherman myself, so I don' t quite understand that part of it. But, I think
there are some fishing activities. So that's one question. The second
question is: How does this dovetail with our County-wide Ordinance on vessel
10
1
1
corridors and the boating activity within 500 feet of the beach. So, how does
' 4::)
this plan square with that Ordinance?
MR. GARY FRANCO: The answer to your first question is, Mr. Chairman, we are
only restricting access in this area (pointing to map) for the boating
community. Boaters can still have access to the south portion of this beach,
and that's exactly where they're going right now.
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: Basically that outlines their area. We have a lot of
boaters that use the beach in particular on the weekends, and have had little
or no problem with those boaters. Basically what we put up there, is an area
that they use anyway. They don' t interfere with the swimmers, and we follow
the natural line of things on that.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. How about the backwater areas? I've noticed, like
there's the houseboat activity, the little pontoon boats, I guess is the way
of saying it, that go back in there. Would this impact that activity?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes. We're requesting to restrict access in the backwaters
to preserve our native vegetation back there. However, we are proposing an
interpretive canoe trail back in through those areas.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Would you post that? Would sign it?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. So you'd have signage up that would indicate the
existence of that regulation. Have you made that an attempt to discuss that
specific part of the proposal with the boating community in any respect like
the Auxiliary Coast Guard. I don' t know if there's a local fisherman's group
up there. Maybe the marinas in that area. You know, it's a fairly small
boating population.
MR. GARY FRANCO: We have not to date done that. However, we can make it a
stipulation. We can explore that possibility for you.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. I would just want to make sure that we hear
everybody's input and that would seem to me to be one input that needs to be
listened to. OK. At page 34 we talked about the Park Rangers a little bit,
and I understand this is a plan only, but I'm trying to understand how the
Park Ranger concept in this park fits in with our County Wide Parks Policy and
the Park Ranger Program. Would this be an extension of that existing Program?
Your proposal for full time Rangers?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Correct
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. So all of the Park Rangers that we currently have in
the County Wide Park system would also go into this Park as well. The Park
Rangers that would serve here would go into the pool of our County Wide Park
Rangers that served throughout the County. Is that correct?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Correct
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. You know, this is kind of related, but I'm trying to
11
understand how that fits with our current budget constraints and our resources
that we use at other Parks. We've been struggling to get Park Rangers
throughout the County. How can we justify full time Rangers at this facility,
when we don' t have even a part time Rangers at other facilities like
Vanderbilt Beach Park, Clam Pass Park, Tigertail, the Immokalee Parks, and so
on? How do those two things square?
MR. GARY FRANCO: I see Mr. Dorrill has just left the building. But, he has
authorized the hiring of two part time Rangers exclusively for the Preserve.
OK. This is 342 acres of environmental sensitive area. That in itself
probably should identify more Rangers than what we're asking for. But, we're
trying to limit the financial obligations to the taxpayers. (end of tape 1-A)
We're going to rely on them heavily for support.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Well, you know, I appreciate that, and this is a
proposal, but I think in our budget discussions like every year, you know,
we've gone back and forth on this with the Board where advocated adding Park
Rangers to our beaches, and we're cut back. Here, this plan contemplates two
full time Park Rangers and two part time. I just, you know, for instance,
just to give you a thought, at Wiggins Pass they have full time Rangers and as
a result of that the fees at Wiggins Pass are $3.50 per car. I would want to
understand what the trade off are between fees and Rangers. You know, it the
costs of putting two full time Rangers up there is increased admissions. I
don' t know. The public could have a hard time with that. I could see that
developing.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Currently, there's no admission charge for that park.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: You know, I understand that, but you know, we've
discussed user fees and we've talked about what we're doing on a County Wide
basis and so forth. I think that's a key issue.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Sure.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. The final think and I'll be quiet, or two things I
guess. I'm concerned about the budgetary implications of this program. Like,
80 acres of exotic removal. What is the real dollar cost of that today? What
would that program cost? Because, just in my experience. That's an expensive
program! You know, that could what? Have you made any efforts to put
together a kind of comprehensive cost analysis of what is contemplated by this
management plan?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes. In this year's budget, we do have $57,000.00 for
exotic removal. That will will encompass 3100 lineal feet of beach. OK.
Which will bring us back into here (pointing to the map) . The state has done
a wonderful job down here, with some exotic removal. It's going to be an
ongoing process. However, the exotic control can be accomplished through
Rangers, support groups, and Community Service Workers. So, other than man
power, there's not going to be a whole heck of a lot that should require
additional funding.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Well, 80 acres of exotic removal though, Gary, that's. . .
When you talk about Brazilian Peppers, and Australian Pines, and I mean,
that's pretty expensive. Isn' t it? Do we have a budgetary concept of what's
12
going to happen over a period of time? What's that cost going to be?
MR. MURDO SMITH: We're going to have to, Kim, probably budget a certain
amount of money per year so that we can accomplish that. Just for an example,
we could say between 10 and 20 thousand dollars a year to accomplish that type
of thing. Of course, it would be up to the BCC whether they could approve
that or not. That way, we would do it in phases. We would tackle it ongoing
throughout the budgetary process. I feel that the exotic removal up there is
probably never going to end. We're going to have to keep after it all the
time. So, it's going to be a basically an operational budgetary amount that
we'll have to put in the Budget in every year to help control that situation.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. At the outset though, can we get some idea of what
the long term cost of this is. For instance, I know that when a developer is
faced with this kind of situation, where a developer has to do exotic removal,
they know on a per acre basis what the cost of doing that is. That's a
function of what the infestation is. How expensive it is. It's a function of
the locational features, and so on.
MR. MURDO SMITH: I was just going to ask if maybe Jeff would know an idea on
that. Jeff is with Coastal Engineering, and he was one of the people who
helped put this plan together. Jeff Moore.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Mr. Moore would you state your name an address for
the record please?
MR. JEFF MOORE: Yes. I'm Jeff Moore with Coastal Engineering. I'm a planner
working on the plan that was planned for the County. We've looked into that
issue quite in depth, because we've also. . . The is a recurring problem in
Collier County and also projects that we're doing up in Lee County. I think
the main thing you need to be conscious of about this specific property is, we
can not use conventional techniques to bring this thing under control, because
it is so intermixed with the native vegetation. If we tried to bring in
heavy equipment, and started moving that stuff out with that material, we'd do
more harm than good. So, we're going have to do this, and it's going to have
to be done very carefully, with more man power, and more lightweight
equipment so we do less damage to this area. So, we can recover faster. Now,
if you have to go to that extreme then definitely it's going to cost more
money. If you go in and just strictly with the heavy equipment, it probably
will cost you maybe a thousand or two per acre. If you want to go more,
you're inclined to hand equipment and that type of nature work you're talking
maybe ten times that cost. It could run as high as $10,000 per acre.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Then 80 acres is $800,000.00.
MR. JEFF MOORE: That's right, but not necessarily all that has to be done at
once or included.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: No, and I understand that this is a ten year or longer
plan, but I just want to understand what that number is.
MR. JEFF MOORE: That's the worst case scenario. There's different research
efforts going on right now. In Australia, where a lot of these exotics came
from and also in South Florida they're looking at other biological controls.
13
So, maybe ten years down the road there will be some other ways to do this
vegetation control and not use the labor intensive techniques we're forced to
use right now.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: When you go through a plan of exotic removal, and we're
talking about doing this in phases. Do you have. . . I don' t want to say a
guarantee, but what I'm looking for is the probability of success of that type
of plan to prevent future infestation. Like, for instance, if we go out an
spend $800,000. Assume the control program, that it does in fact take place.
What is the likelihood that the plan, or that activity is going to be
effective?
MR. JEFF MOORE: If we get the dominant species out now, which is probably the
Australian Pines, which is doing the worst harm right now, cut the shading out
all of the undershrub, if we get that out, immediately like within the next
five or six years, the normal native vegetation that inhabit wetlands would
have a chance to recover and stabilize it and if we have a continual
maintenance going in, pulling seedlings out before they reach the heights of
them starting to create problems again, you'll have a highly successful
program. Then you'll have a continual expense you're going to have to budget
to keep it from going back to where it was originally. It's all based upon
whether you've got the follow-up work or not. If it's not there, then you
will have it recur again.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I just want to make sure we're not going down the
slippery slope here where we start into a program and because we're into it,
then we're making more expenditures, but it doesn' t work. That is very
important, because I think as you've seen increased accountability in the
County and increased public concern over costs of County activities, that's
going to be a question that the public is very definitely going to be focused
in on.
MR. JEFF MOORE: Well, another thing you need to keep in mind, is since. . . I'm
a Landscape Architect, and I work quite often with Coastal Engineers that are
very much aware of what these exotics are doing and the erosion at the
beaches, because they've eliminated the whole dune support system that's
behind it. Because that vegetation just doesn' t have the structural
intertwining root structure to help support it. There's a lot of other
communities that are facing the same problems that this community is facing
that it's going to have to be addressed, or you're going to have more storm
damage problems that's going to be worse expense wise than verses what's this
things going to run on.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: In other words, you get into more beach re-nourishment
activity. . .
MR. JEFF MOORE: That' right! You're going to have the tradeoffs. I mean,
where do you spend you dollars? You try to eliminate a problem that really
might get to be more. In other aspects, or even the storm protection, things
like of that nature, than you would probably, if this thing wasn' t taken care
of, you know, you're putting some areas in jeopardy.
MR. GARY FRANCO: I just don' t want to lead everybody down the path, and say
it's going to cost $800,000.00 for this removal. OK. Because I'm not really
14
sure where that figure just came from. But, what we're saying, is we do have
ID in-house staff that currently does exotic removal within the confines of the
preserve. We can get you a cost estimate.
MR. JEFF MOORE: Gary, what I'm talking about, is the large trees. That's
where the most expense is.
MR. GARY FRANCO: You're talking about the Australian Pines.
MR. JEFF MOORE: Right. The Australian Pines, and going back in there and
cutting out some of the badly infested Brazilian Pepper areas. That's where
your big expense lies. Then again those figures are off the top of my head,
and they are subject to change.
MR. GARY FRANCO: I just don' t want anybody to believe it's going to cost
$800,000.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Kim, I've got a note, that the Transportation Department
also has a long time commitment for environmental mitigation. There's a five
year plan of mitigation approved by the Board by resolution, and perhaps we
could look into getting some assistance from that in the way of mitigation
removal. Ladd, if you would like to respond to that, or. . .
MR. LADD RYZIW: I'd be glad to Murdo.
MR. MURDO SMITH: This is Ladd Ryziw from the Transportation Department. Ladd
has worked with us extensively on this project also.
fir' MR. LADD RYZIW: Good Afternoon Board, Mr. Chairman, public members. My name
is Ladd Ryziw, a Civil Engineer in the Transportation Department. Primarily a
roadway planner, designer, and constructor of Collier County Highway Systems
that you see everyday driving, before you, and so forth. I'm here also to
essentially support the overall Park project here. The Transportation
Department has been supporting the Parks and Recreation Department from a
design standpoint and so forth. I wanted to tonight, give a little note to
Murdo in support of the potential costs of removal of exotics long term wise
along the preserve frontage. What I wanted to mention here, in support of the
Parks and Recreation Department from a funding standpoint for long term exotic
removal is the fact that during our design and construction of highways in
Collier County, we have various environmental commitments to local, state, and
federal environmental agencies, and we have to mitigate certain environmental
impacts. It's kind of a known factor. Today, it's becoming much more
extensive. In order to offset some of the time and cost impacts on the
environment caused by highway construction, Transportation has presented a
five year environmental program to the Board of County Commissioners in the
terms of a Resolution which has been approved. What does that really mean as
far as this particular park project is concerned? What it really means is in
the future we'll be presenting to the environmental agencies, various
mitigation proposals to offset impacts on highways. In the resolution, there
are six different preserves listed as far as areas for potential mitigation
due to impacts by the highway projects. There are six preserves within the
area of Collier County, and honestly I'm not sure is this particular Preserve
c is listed, but there are six Preserves listed in this Resolution whereby
Transportation in years to come would be undertaking environmental mitigation
15
to offset roadway impacts. I wanted to kind of bring that forth as far as a
funding contribution of some sort. Murdo.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Thank you!
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Ladd, let me clarify something. Does that mean that the
Transportation Department, through their Ordinance and throughout their
mitigation efforts then can go in and help us remove these removals from the
Preserve? Is that what you're telling us?
MR. LADD RYZIW: I'm saying that would be a correct statement in a sense.
Again, I need to emphasize that the BCC approved the Resolution. It's a
beginning point. We're in the birthing stage of the Resolution. There's
going to be some follow-up Ordinances and so forth. But, we're looking at a
pretty major undertaking. We're looking at a five year environmental program.
The next step is to get the funding support from the BCC as part of the
Roadway Improvement program as a separate Line Item. But, yes, I am saying
that. That we're going to be looking around different parts of Collier County
in order to mitigate impact from the Highway projects. Simply we'll want to
go ahead and do it comprehensively instead of doing it fragmentarily and so
forth, in order to gain the long term big picture benefit if you will. So,
again, in time to come, the Lely Preserve could be one of the Candidate sites
for the mitigation, and it would wind up as being obviously an inter-
departmental type of funding contribution if you will.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Do you know of any other Department in the County that is
concerned about beach erosion. In the County, that it would involve in the
exotic removal event, the beach erosion? Would that be in your Department, or
Pollution Control?
MR. LADD RYZIW: Martha, I could not speak on the beach erosion.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Well that to me, is one of the biggest facts back here.
I'll show you pine closer to the beach, and their surface roots. The beach
has eroded under that. There are no roots going <coughing ?>.
MR. LADD RYZIW: That's a very good point, and Jeff could probably forward
that statement, but as far as the potential commitment, from Transportation
Services for exotic removals, it is a very good possibility that could occur.
MR. JEFF MOORE: I'd like to clarify something. That 80 acre number that was
discussed earlier. That doesn' t mean that those whole areas are completely
dominated. Probably, the worst is about six acres that's completely
dominated. So, you should take that in proportion. That $10,000.00 per acre
would not be necessary for the whole 80 acres. The other is probably
something that Gary's staff could handle over a period of time.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Mr. Moore, one final question on this. In the
report at page 33 I think it is. It talks about the implementation of the
barrier or gating on State/County line or between the County Preserve and the
State Preserve. I understand the value of the barriers as to keeping vehicles
in the confines of the roadway and designate traffic areas preventing off-road
activities with vehicles. Is that the intent of that statement in the report?
16
MR. JEFF MOORE: Primarily. The only people that would be allowed beyond that
would strictly be the staff. Where they would have to go down to their
maintenance things.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Is that Statement in the report? Does that imply the
construction of another gate house at the State/County line.
MR. MURDO SMITH: No. It could be a very simple gate or something like what
we have put up at the entrance to our park. But basically, that would
probably go away in time as the boardwalks and so forth we'll put in there, so
nobody could drive down there anyway. That would not be a permanent type of
fence, and we wouldn' t want to spend a lot of dollars doing that, but we would
like to have some type of barricade there.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I was real concerned about how that is done. I think
it's important that it be done in an aesthetically pleasing way, because this
is a very nice Preserve. If it could be a wooden structure.
MR. JEFF MOORE: That's what we're going to recommend, is something that very
much blends in, that's compatible with the park kind of atmosphere is what
we're trying to do.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Are there any other questions of Board Members at
this time? (no response) OK, if there are no other questions. . .
MR. GIL MUELLER: I have a question. It isn' t necessarily a question, but I
share your concerns, Mr. Chairman. I'm concerned about the financial impact
that this will have on the park districts. It's a tremendous undertaking,
obviously, and I guess my concern lays in the fact, that so many of our other
facilities or other sites are constantly needing upgrading, renovation,
improvement, being expanded upon, and I just hope that this new venture won' t
impair any of that or reflect badly on it. Our first concern is to maintain
and to improve the basic facilities that we have. That's our first priority
in my opinion. I would want to be very cautious in proceeding too rapidly on
this, because after all I don' t think it's that top of a priority compared to
some of the other problems we have throughout the park district in upgrading
the facilities. Just a statement. Not a question.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Mr. Mueller, a lot of the funding, and so forth for the
improvements at this site will be through Regional Park Impact Fees, so they
would not be advalorem taxes. The equipment, and so forth, that would be
necessary could also be purchased out of that. Possibly some money from the
Tourist Development Tax, if that is straightened out, or approved, from the
lawsuit, could be used for some of the beach maintenance. So, we could limit
the amount of advalorem taxes for people, if those types of funding could be
used for that. That's just a response Mr. Mueller.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I know this is difficult to answer, Murdo, but give me a
ballpark figure as to what percentage could be expected from Impact Fees.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Well, you're talking basically on a long term. All the
improvements at that facility could be taken out of Impact Fees. Currently we
have budgeted in the present budget funds to do some work up there this year,
which is coming out of Impact Fees.
17
MR. GIL MUELLER: What do you think of probability of securing money through
the Tourist Development Tax? Didn' t we write a letter to somebody on that a
number of months ago, asking that question? Who was that again?
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Commissioner Volpe
MR. MURDO SMITH: We have done it for actually two projects. We did it for
Vanderbilt Beach, and for some maintenance of the beaches. We asked for
Tourist Development tax money to fund those? You can receive a portion of
your maintenance out of the Tourist Development Tax for beach maintenance,
which would be cleaning the litter, and so forth on the beach, so that would
give us some assistance there. I can not give you a percentage of what it
would be, I'm sorry about that, but I can not give you a percentage.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I understand. Well, that makes me feel a little bit better,
because I really don' t think that the taxpayers of Collier County would
necessarily be that enthusiastic about spending a great deal of money on this
park.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Let's hear from the public. I think I want to start by
saying we very much appreciate the public attendance at this meeting. I helps
us greatly to have public input into our discussions. I would invite any
member of the public that would like to speak, if you would first begin by
identifying yourself by name and address for the record. We'd greatly
appreciate it.
(7 PUBLIC HEARING
3:13 P.M.
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: My name is George Fogg, I'm a Landscape Architect, and am
a resident at 628 Woodshire Lane. I am concerned about the light area on the
map. The in-holding, which seems to have been just hopped over. In my some
25 years of experience in designing and managing parks, inholding seemed to be
the most difficult thing that occurs. What's the status on that? Where is it
addressed? How is it addressed?
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Could you describe what in-holding is for the Board?
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: That's that white area. That's somebody else's private
property inside the park boundary.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes. That is within the Park Boundaries. However we do
have a twelve foot access that goes through that. That's called Gulf Bay
Drive. This is owned by a private individual. I believe the selling is
somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 .56 million dollars.
MR. GIL MUELLER: It's a strip of land, Gary? Who owns this?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Neither DNR or the County. It's just a private individual.
When that was sub-divided into narrow beach-front lots, prior to 1972, we
surmised that's how.
MR. GARY FRANCO: Is that addressed somewhere in here?
18
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I apparently didn' t see that.
EMILY MAGGIO: Could I make a comment? I could just tell you that I know the
lady that owns it, is the lady that has owned it all these years. She refused
to sell to the State when the others sold, now she's trying to sell it
individually. The price is 1 .5 million the last that I heard. I did call the
DNR, and encouraged them to get off their duff and buy it before some
private. . .
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: It could also be subject to condemnation.
EMILY MAGGIO: I suggested that too.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Where is it addressed in the plan?
MR. GARY FRANCO: It is called the out-parcel in the plan.
PRIVATE CITIZEN: But is the solution of the problem addressed in the plan?
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Is there a page reference in the plan as to where that
is?
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: Page 27.
MR. JEFF MOORE: The current plan that I have. I've elaborated upon that
detail a little bit. Because we've done some research recently on that, to
identify existing ownership, and existing access ways that do exist. To
verify that we do have access to get down to the south part. As far as we
could tell, there is a right of way that exists right through the middle of it
that will allow access down to the the south beach. Also there is access
along the beach front itself. So, it doesn' t restrict access. The only
concern that I have, and I think staff has is that we don' t know just what the
future plans of that property is, and what kind of ramifications it has. We'd
recommend that the County with the State, the purchase of the property. Money
is definitely the tough thing to overcome, but it doesn' t really obstruct the
plan itself. It's a long term process. Without that input, we just don' t
know.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Thank you very much Mr. Moore. Mr. Fogg, if you'll
continue please.
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: Yes. It is perhaps far more critical than has been
addressed at this point. Assuming that for whatever the reason, the person
decides to build a high-rise condominium there. Or, decide I want to build a
house down there, or whatever. Put a trailer, you're talking about putting a
trailer, put a trailer down there.
MR. GARY FRANCO: RO and Agricultural I think, is the zoning requirements
within that parcel.
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: Or, a trailer park, or whatever. You've got to provide
access then. You know, you've got all the problems of access. In other
19
words, there are major complications with that inholding that you clearly
understand. They have to be resolved in the planning process, or at least
clearly addressed as to what direction that resolution will take. A second
thing, I assume is in there, and I just didn' t understand it, is an area for
maintenance. We talked about our residential area, but I didn' t see or hear
in regards to the maintenance area. Are you going to put the maintenance area
down in that location?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Yes. It's the Ranger Resident, and Maintenance Support
Facility. I believe I commented on that.
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: OK. How are you controlling the number of users of the
park?
MR. GARY FRANCO: Actually we are controlling parking places within the
confines of the Preserve. However, that is controlled by the number of
parking places available. Which is presently, right now 67 and 42.
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: OK. I understand that concept. What methodology is used
to keep 67 or 100, or whatever number of cars only in that area?
MR. GARY FRANCO: We are in communication, and not to open it up to a "can of
worms" , but we are in communication with the access point at the Lely
Development. We issue instructions to that, and they do not tell us when to
open up or say to allow cars through that parcel. So they are under our
directions through the Park Ranger program. The people that work for Nan, by
radio, telephone, and when the parking lot gets full, "please put your sign
out that says PARKING LOT FULL" .
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: To kind of capsulize that a little bit, is it fair to say
that in order to adopt a plan, we need to resolve the access issue. We need
to have a functioning understanding of the access issue in order to implement
the plan.
MR. GARY FRANCO: I don' t want to lose site of the fact that the planned
concept is the most important thing. Certainly there is an access issue. As
I've said before, I don' t think we can resolve that here today, but there is
an access issue.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Well, I'm very familiar with it, having sat on the
Special Task Force together with Mrs. Ward and a number of other individuals.
MR. GEORGE E. FOGG: I just have two other quick points. The phasing, I
assume the phasing map is part of this. I know it's been referred to, so I
assume that it will be included. Also, I take with a great deal of concern
your desire to have a residence on the site. I have been through this issue
many, many, many times in the various Park Agencies I've worked for. Almost
invariably the conclusion was, that a residence on the site was not
necessarily the best direction to go in. I know the issues involved the
saying that you get protection to the site, I also know that there are other
problems that come with it. For instance, it is understood when you put a
residence on the site, he no longer has any privacy. They do then try to
establish some sort of privacy, some sort of control of their lives, and it
becomes a continuous problem between and does a person have any rights at all.
20
That is does the Ranger have any rights at all, can in any way isolate himself
from the Public. I know on the surface it sounds like a good idea, but I
think there is some very serious issues involved with it. Of course, if we're
going to put the building down there, and you are going to have a generator,
then of course we have that intrusion into the site. I question whether
that's a desirable thing. Basically I question the need for a Residence and
the location, and the location for the Maintenance area. I have reservations
whether that is the most appropriate location for it. But, from a Management
standpoint, maybe it is. I just think it need carefully considered whether
that is the right spot for it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Mr. Fogg, I think you kind of touched on one other
thing. What's our ability to take Utilities down to the site? What would be
the provision for Utilities? When you have a resident there, or even for our
parking lighting, what's contemplated?
MR. MURDO SMITH: What the utilities would be, is when the Bath House is
installed down there, the utilities would be run to it at that time.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Would it be on septic? It's probably a terrible area for
that.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. We have sewer up to the. . . Maybe Ladd can give me a
little help with this, since he's worked on that utility, and the road, and so
forth. We have, I believe utilities all the way to the southern end our our
property do we not Ladd? If you could help me out as far as that goes? Then
what we'd do is just run the utilities down the rest of the. . .
MR. LADD RYZIW: Murdo, that's a correct statement. The utilities come down
the access road, and right at the terminus of the parking areas. Sanitary
Sewer, and domestic water supply systems are existing out there. The sewage
is simply pumped to the north to treatment areas. As to whether or not the
existing utilities that are located within the Collier County Park are
extended south to the tip of the State land holdings is something that really
has not been decided upon.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: What would be the cost of doing that? How much lineal
footage are we talking about? Do you know what average for quite an extension
of those kind of utilities is?
MR. LADD RYZIW: Murdo, the Park length is at 5,000 feet.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: But how much farther? You're saying they're already to
the County portion of the County Preserve area. Right?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Right. So, you'd be talking approximately half way, 2500
feet.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: So 2500 feet, what? Do you have any concept of what that
would cost? Let me ask you this. Would you require Environmental Permits or
installation of utilities. I'm sure you would. Just like Clam Pass. Right?
That same situation?
21
MR. LADD RYZIW: Mr. Chairman, one thing to keep in mind is, utilities into
40 the State land holdings may not be permissive what so ever. But, in the area
of cost, it's because of the retrieving capacity and so forth, there's a lot
of issues behind it, that I would just like to say that it would be a
substantial cost, and if the Board wishes, I'd rather go ahead and prepare
probably to Mr. Smith here, a little statement on a cost. But, I would not
like to give you some numbers and. . .
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Yes. I don' t want you to give us an opinion where you're
not sure of it.
MR. LADD RYZIW: I would say that it would be a substantial cost, a financial
impact on the project that may not have been originally planned for. But, I
did want to mention that the Utilities may not be permissive within a State
Park.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Thank you very much Mr. Ryziw.
(end of Tape #1-B)
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: Good Afternoon Mr. Chairman and Board Members. My name is
Emily Maggio, I live in Little Hickory Shores, I have been privileged to use
that beach for the 22 years that I've lived here. It's a beautiful area, it
deserves to be protected. I was only one of many who petitioned to have the
State initially buy it, and eventually the County buy it. At that time our
goal was to have the Public enjoy it. But to have a minimum amount of
development as possible, so as to preserve the natural resources. They are
unique to Florida. They deserve to be protected. A Ranger, even though I am
concerned about taxes as anyone else, I think a Ranger is imperative. I don' t
believe this County has another park that has the resources that this park
has. In fact, that's another reason I fight tooth and nail every time they
want to dredge the pass because that's over manipulation is going to spill
over and damage these resources. Bear that in mind. I don' t think it's a
point that anyone has brought up to you, and you should, because those boats
are not going to be content just to go out the pass, they are going to want to
go north. The waters there are very shallow. They're 18 inches to two feet.
Eventually the people are not going to be happy just to go out, they're going
to want to go north and south and you're never going to keep the boats out of
there. I mean, it's going to be a real problem! So, the best thing in my
opinion, is to keep things as natural as possible and let the natural
resources and the natural constraints that they put on things, be your growth
management. Just refuse to manipulate them, and that will provide for you
effect resource management and growth management as well. A very good points
has been brought up. One of the points that I felt was not covered, and it
was brought up, is access. Access is paramount! I have some documents here
that I find out that you people have not had. That concerns me! In 1977,
September 27, the Lely Barefoot Beach PUD was approved by the County. At that
point in time, the road right of way, the easement was owned by the state. In
August or December. I think December, 1977 is when Lely sold part of the
property that they sold to the State. The following year on August 1st, the
State and Lely entered into an Agreement whereby the State gave up ownership
of the right of way. What they got in return was, a permanent easement for
ingress and egress to the property. Only constraint on that is, during park
hours. They can a gate, and they can close the gate only after park hours.
22
While there's a park any gate would have to be opened to public traffic.
Also, what the State got, was not only the construction of the road, but the
maintenance of that road in perpetuity. The only reason I believe the State
gave up ownership of that right of way, which is the only access to their
property, was because of what they were given. These were very valuable
considerations and Lely agreed to them and signed. Again, in 1988, the road
actually built. In fact, when Lely signed this agreement in 1978 they made a
commitment to the state to build that road within three years. It was
supposed to have been built by 1981, but was not. In 1985, when Lely went to
the County and got a PUD Amendment, they put a date on building the road as
June of 1989 and that's eventually when the road was completed. In 1988 Lely
went again to the State because they had to relocate the road. It was running
through wetlands. So, they went to the state, signed another agreement to
move the location out of the wetlands. The wetlands, incidentally, that those
condominiums are now being built in. However, the road got up on the high and
dry. In this agreement, it again guarantees the State's right of access to
their property. It also spells out the conditions for maintenance of the road
which are Lely's and actually this is the first time that it is mentioned that
after Lely, it will be the homeowners that will do it. It also in here makes
it a legal, although it was always and always should have been. . . Lely should
have informed anyone, because in 1977 or 1978 when all this took place there
were no homes. They always under an obligation to inform people about the
public easement through there. In this agreement in 1988, it is spelled out,
and it says that Lely further agrees to advise any potential buyer of any
property encumbered set forth in Paragraph two of the existence of this
agreement prior to the sale of any property. So anyone who purchased after
this definitely was mislead, if they were not told about the easement. When
CP'
the County purchased the Property, there was a use access agreement drafted.
Personally I question the County entering into that with a limited number of
cars to the number of parking places given the fact that these agreements
existed, and Lely knew they existed. But, at a point in time, when we took on
the lease of the property from the state, we took on their rights. The Lease
Agreement that we have from the State right on the front page gives us full
rights for quiet, I don' t know the exact word, I've got it in here, but we are
to use the property with all the State's rights coming to us. Therefore, we
should have access over that road during park hours, unrestricted. We have a
Ranger in the park who will determine the park is full, and at which point
cars will be turned away. I've heard it said, why should people drive down
that two miles, well who's to say when I start or while I'm at the gate, or on
my way down that a car isn' t leaving and will be coming out. If you're going
stop, unnecessary trip, then you're going to have to put out advisories all
over the County to say "Don' t head for Lely Barefoot or any other park,
because the parking places are all taken. " and I realize there are residents
here from Barefoot beach, who I hope are friends of mine. I hope they
understand. These agreements were put in place long before there were
residents. There things that were given to the public were given in exchange
for ownership of that road. Therefore, we are entitled to these rights. Can
we give up what was given to us? And they get to keep what was given to
them? I don' t think that's what the State had in mind, I don' t think that's
a fair scenario. I understand that maintenance of that road is expensive. I
feel for them. I certainly do, but I think that the matter is really between
the developer and the homeowners. As I say, I don' t want to start problems,
but now here's a new add that just appeared, first time, in a paper, and this
is typical, and this is for the Condominiums that are there. Now they're
23
{
talking about 31 acre private club, where 3-1/2 miles of your own beach are
just. . . Well three and a half miles of beach is from Beach Road all the
ways. . . Now they're claiming the whole thing is private. In here it mentions
the streets are so quiet you couldn' t even here a bicycle. Well, somebody is
misleading somebody, and this kind of stuff is not making it any easier for me
to come or to have to stand up and argue for rights that are mine under these
agreements legally enforceable agreements that have been in force for years.
The State has not agreed to give anything up. It is upsetting for me to have
to do this. These people are my neighbors. I like many of them. I have much
in common with them, and would like to remain on a friendly basis. However,
this is a topic that I don' t think we can compromise because we will get
nothing for it!
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mrs. Maggio, outside of the access issue, did you. . . I
know that you're very involved in that area. Do you have other comments or
other thoughts on the Management Plan specifically?
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: I think, as I say, low key development was what we always
had in mind. We hope that the parking places will be limited, and really, if
you read that. . . Marge went up to Washington and took part in a National
Parks thing and one of the things that people said about parks was the number
of people in there. In other words, if you can control how many people, so
that you don' t have Coney Island, the park is much more of an enjoyable
experience. I think you'll have an easier time reserving what's there by
minimizing the amount of development in parking and everything else that you
put there. As far as the exotics, I like to get out of the sun, when I'm on
the beach. Right now, the only thing is the Australian Pine. Those exotics
didn' t get there overnight. I don' t think you should consider taking them out
overnight, because they do provide habitat for some of the animals that you're
going to lose. I mean where are they going to go. So, if you do that,
there's going to have to be, over a long period of time, and with some very
careful thought as to replacement. You can' t just take down, a barrier
island, I think if you strip it, it'll wash away. You know, the Australian
Pines may not be good, but they're there.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I think the Plan, if I read it correctly, contemplates
replenishment of the plant growth as part of the program.
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: I hope so! Like I say, I didn' t find a big problem with
it, like I say, it's low key, which is what we were contemplating, and I was
concerned. As soon as I heard that parcel was for sale, I called the real
estate person, and the lady is adamant. I think the only way the State is
going to get it, is to condemn it, because they made her mad somehow, and she
refused to sell to them then, and the Real Estate man indicated to me, she
didn' t even want to talk to them. So, I think condemnation is going to be the ,
only way you're going to get that piece of property. OK. I thank you very
much. I would be happy to have you copy these documents.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: You know, I think we do in fact have copies of many of
those documents in our packet. We have the Lease Agreement. . .
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: That's all that's in there. The other Agreements with the
State are not in there.
24
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. I think, just a point of reference, I am very
familiar with the other Agreements, I've read a number of times on this issue.
Just so you're aware. Mr. Mueller, you had a question.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, Mrs. Maggio, you mentioned the environmental impact of
the dredging of Wiggins Pass affected by habit of beach, and justifiably so.
Wasn' t there not an Environmental Study, or hasn' t there been an Environmental
Study made as to what impact that dredging might have?
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: No. That's one of the things that upsets me terribly!
There has never been an Environmental Study for what you have there, what
conditions may exist. I mean, I can tell you, because I live on the waterway.
The amount of wildlife and the fish. It's wonderful! It's a beautiful
resource and it's a public waterway. But, development is encroaching, and
they have no idea what's going on with the waterway. If in fact is one more
straw going to break the camel's back? They don' t know that.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, I don' t understand, because we do Environmental
Studies, and we have studies of Environmental Studies in the County, and I
can' t believe that something. . . I'm not doubting your word, don' t
misunderstand me. But, I can' t believe something that's taken place like
this, that there hasn' t been some sort of a study as to the impact that might
have on the environment. You say it has not?
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: It has not, where this particular project and it really
hadn' t when it was done the first time. In fact, I don' t understand how the
State issued a permit for the dredging, because the post project monitoring
for the 1984 dredging was never done. They have done no monitoring after this
particular failed attempt and they're going to do it again, twice in one year.
Anybody that thinks that's not going to effect these resources is kidding
themselves!
MR. GIL MUELLER: Could very well be. I have one more question, Mr. Chairman,
and then I'll give it up. You mentioned, unrestricted access. Would you
clarify that. What you specifically mean as far as unrestricted is concerned?
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: Well, that means that the public is allowed to drive down
Lely Boulevard to the park, unrestricted during park hours. That means no
stopping at any gate. I know there are speed bumps and I understand the
reason for the speed bumps. But, unrestricted means without stopping to
answer to anyone.
MR. GIL MUELLER: You're saying they should have access without paying a
parking fee?
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: Well, you know how I feel about parking fees. Unless you
can show me that there's a benefit to paying someone to collect a parking fee,
I'm opposed to it. For instance. I can come here to this particular park
(Golden Gate Community Park) , for which I am a taxpayer. Parks are one of the
things, I happily report, I can come to this particular park, park my car, I
can get out of my car, and I can walk over and look at the trees and the
birds, I can spread my towel on the grass and I can sunbathe. I can come in
and use the facilities, you have running water, air conditioning, whatever. I
don' t pay a dime. If I try to do that self same thing on the beach, you want
25
to charge me a dollar.
401) MR. GIL MUELLER: Do you drive to Tigertial, or Clam Pass, or Vanderbilt?
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: No I don' t!
MR. GIL MUELLER: How do you feel about paying to park at those places? If
you were to go there, how would you feel about it?
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: I don' t go there. I don' t think we should have to pay. I
don' t think that paying that man, who sits out there in his own little
air-conditioned booth with his toilet, while the people who go to Vanderbilt
Beach have no facility, other than maybe some running water, I don' t see how
paying him. . .
MR. GIL MUELLER: I have to correct you there. The little booth for example
at Tigertail is about the size of half of this table, and it's hardly a
comfortable spot. He doesn' t have a toilet. So, it isn' t that soft a
situation. He's the recipient to a lot of abuse from the public and it isn' t
that easy of a job. I know that's a fact. OK. I just wondered how you felt
about. I believe that we should have access to the beach. I wouldn' t
question that for a moment. We should have a right to walk there. But, if
you come there and you park, it's my opinion that there should be a minimal
fee charged.
MS. EMILY MAGGIO: Well, I understand that the Park Board has always
recommended that, and what I'm saying to you, is I disagree because I don' t
see the benefit to paying the dollar to that gentleman who doesn' t. . . In fact
at Clam Pass, he's a mile away from the beach, I don' t understand how that
enhances the beach experience. In fact, the money collected doesn' t ever
cover the cost of paying these people.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Thank you for your opinion.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK.
DR. LEON EISENBUD: I'm Leon Eisenbud, I'm President of the Barefoot Beach
Residents Property Owners Master Association. I think that the discussion
that Mrs. Maggio has brought up about access is really totally irrelevant.
However, having brought it up, I would like one minute, that's all, to just
read to her what it says in the document that I have. "The Board Agrees the
Standard Operating Procedure of recreational activities on Property
will include limited number of vehicles accessing the property. To the number
of actual parking spaces located on the property. If parking becomes full,
and at times access to the property will be temporarily closed at the
intersection of Bonita Beach Road at the entrance of Lely Beach Subdivision.
Until such time that parking spaces become available. Upon request, the Park
Superintendent or his representative or his assignee shall have the right to
stop access to the property when the parking lot is full. Now Emily, if you
want to make that trip down from Bonita Beach Road to this point, which I
believe is 1-1/2 miles and find it full, and have to turn around and go back
out, I don' t even know where you're going to wait. Wouldn' t it be more
convenient for you, for the Guard to tell you, at the intersection, point to
the sign and say, see they radioed down to us, the lot is full, why don' t you
26
go into Bonita Beach Park there, or move over to the side and wait until
somebody leaves. So, first of all, we clearly have need. We've been
assigned, not a right, but we've been requested to provide someone at that
point who will close the gate so that people can not make that unnecessary
trip of one and a half miles in each direction. OK.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: You know, I've provided a lot of latitude here to speak
on the access issue. But, I think we're all aware that it's been the subject
of a very long County Commission meeting, a Special Task Force is dealing with
it, the Attorney's Office is reviewing it. Any number of reviews, and I think
for purposes of today's hearing, at least, we'd like to focus on the
Management Plan, the environmental factors, what we see within the plan, and
I would just ask that we do some of that, because I think this could get to be
a very long drawn out discussion, and I would hate to do it at the expense of
some of these other issues in the plan. So, if you would just bear with me on
that point, I'd greatly appreciate it. Mr. Ward.
MR. DAVID W. WARD: First off, I'm Dave Ward, I'm Vice President of C.A.B.B.
(Citizens Association of Bonita Beach) and we are a Beach Association. We try
to protect the public rights to public land and so forth. To your point, Mr.
Kobza, as to the quality of the job that you're doing with your plan for the
park, I think It's tremendous! I think you've done an excellent job! Your
plan is past due at this particular time, as we know, and your plan goes to
the State for the State's approval. I would assume that that they would
approve it. It looks great to me. I'm going to make a couple of suggestions
on your plan. I mentioned this one the other day. I think it's absolutely
necessary with the large investment of a park like this, and the resources
that are involved here that you have a permanent person there day and night.
We know that Bonita Beach has been vandalized several times. Wiggins Pass
State Park has been vandalized. It's a peninsula, it's isolated, people can
come in with boats, and do damage, so you really need a full time party there
at night. If for no other reason, just to let people know that there's
somebody there that can hear what's going on. This is a bad time right now.
You might wake up and find a headline that it's been burned down or something,
right after Halloween. This is when it was raided once before. I would like
to see you have your Ranger Station up near the parking lot at least. Because
for one thing, it will be less costly for utilities. It puts them more in the
middle of the situation. It puts them more at the head of the problem. I
know some people say, "Well the State has theirs back in, to protect the
Ranger from the public and annoying him, but after all, I think if he accepts
that job, it's a full time job, that's part and parcel of the job and goes
along with it. " I think there should be more provision for boating than your
canoe trail. There's a lot of people that use that waterway behind the park.
I know, I'm going to get people here that disagree with me, and try to keep
people out of these lands, in a way. But, my personal opinion is, if a
person wants to come in to that park from usually a small boat, maybe little
bit larger than a canoe or something, that they have someplace that they can
picnic there. They'll go out and swim on the beach, from the inland point of
view. Because, there's a lot of people that use the inland waterway that are
not big boat people. They're just average Joe, like you an I. They don' t
have a 32 foot craft, you know. Then also after all the people north of
there, they're are applying for a lot of docks. They get to use their boats,
and there's no reason the public shouldn' t have the same right, because we
spend our money for that land too, I think we're too, and I think we should
27
Or
look out for that. I don' t want the land to be overused, but I think you
should have a little area to get some. . . There's one other objection. I'm
going to say something about. . . I could talk with Emily, talked quite a long
time, but I've read the thoughts. What she said, every word of it's the
truth, and I know that she's 100 percent right on it. I'm going to avoid that
issue with one exception, and that is in the PUD. I mean you've got a
beautiful park here. It's for the public that you're doing this. I believe.
I hope. You don' t have a sign out at the road. There's a little sign there.
It's white on white! You know, you can' t even see it! It's down in the bush!
It says, Preserve area! But, there's supposed to be, in the PUD, a sign like
all the parks. There's a big sign coming into this park right here, and you
don' t have any sign, and it's supposed to be on the Lely right of way. I
think the public is entitled to know that, that park is there, and I think if
you're going to all this effort, you should see to it, that it's put there.
It's in the PUD, the State would like to probably see that sign there, because
they spent money on that. So, that should be part of your plan. I think I've
said enough.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Are there any questions of Mr. Ward? (no response) OK,
next public speaker please? Thank you very much Mr. Ward!
MR. DAVID ADDISON: My name is Dave Addison, I'm a Biologist at the
Conservancy, and we're located at 1450 Merrihue Drive in Naples. Our interest
in this now, is from our involvement in the legal proceedings of, I guess
actually in a round about way, of a purchase and acquisition of somebody's
property here that we've got in the County Park right now. But I read over
the Management Plan, I've just got a couple of suggestions for Murdo and Gary.
I would suggest with respect to. . . I'm assuming the boardwalk is going to go
down the existing dirt path now right? And, you're going to site a road,
which I hope will be a pervious type of road in this area. It would help, I
think a great deal, for DNR when they evaluate your Management Plan, if you
have a Habitat Map. It would show them specifically what this road is going
through, so they can evaluate the impacts of the road. I think the same with
the support facilities. If you decide to put the house down where it is, or
as this other gentleman suggested, maybe moving it back up it might help.
I've seen where the end of the road is there, and there might be some space,
there might be some privacy for whoever might end up out there. The other
point that Emily made, which was back to trying to maintaining the character
of this area. The mention is made of 100 parking spaces. I think that's
probably what you should look at as a limit, a maximum of what you put in
there. You know, in the future, I'm sure you'll probably phase those in as
you do it. If you end up with maybe two or three hundred parking spaces down
there, a lot of the experience that the people are seeking on the beach,
you'll end up with St. Petersburgh Beach. It just detracts from the whole
thing. I think everybody in the room understands that. As far as the exotic
control is concerned, I think Jeff Moore made a good point in what he was
saying, is you can pay us now, or pay me more later if you don' t address the
problem that you're going to be faced with. When you're dealing with exotic
removal, again, to get this plan approved by DNR I think you need to go into a
little bit more detail on exactly how you're going to address this. Because,
they're going to ask questions about that. The State doesn' t like exotic
plants, and with good reason. I've seen what they've done on Key Island, and
I can certainly understand what Nan has said about the problem they cause with
erosion and with the Turtles trying to nest. In fact, there's places on Key
28
Island where on High Tide, you can' t really get from one end of the beach to
the other, your just blocked off by these Australian Pines that have all
fallen into akimbo into the water. Another suggestion, and you're going to be
facing this problem. You've got money appropriated now to start working on
the exotics up in the north end?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Right, and the Dune Restoration in that area.
MR. DAVID ADDISON: OK. I don' t know how you'll phase it, but I think you
might find yourself saving yourself a little bit of money as you develop this
park. If you try to get the exotics out before you get the Boardwalk in,
because that presents a barrier between the road and the beach. So, to try to
get the equipment back and forth there, it might be a little bit easier for
you. I think too, although it's not an idea without merit, the idea of
prohibiting boats on the back side of that is going to be met with a lot or
resistance. What I might suggest as an alternative is to restrict that to an
idle speed back there, but for sure ban the use of Jet Skis back there and
probably on the front of the beach. We've gotten a fatality down here at
Hurricane Pass, not long ago. Those things are fairly hazardous.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: All right. Jet Skis in the back water areas and the
beach areas?
MR. DAVID ADDISON: I would say, ship'm all back to Japan. They are a
headache, and they are a hazard. Another thing. . .
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: That raises a question. Again, on our Beach Ordinance,
just a thought that comes to mind. It may apply on the seaward side of the
park facilities, but I'm not very sure that it would apply in the backwater
areas, and we may want to take a look at that.
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: It doesn' t apply in the backwater areas. Ordinance
number 8911, the Beach and Water Safety Ordinance, is strictly for beach,
which is clearly defined in the Ordinance. What we're looking at on the Map
might be confusing some people. A great portion of that area your motorboats
can' t get into. It's only suitable for canoes. See, what's east of that is
the channel that everybody's been using. What we're looking at right here
where we're proposing our canoe trail, unless you had a small electric motor
on a canoe or something, you wouldn' t get through there anyway. People aren' t
using that to begin with.
MR. DAVID ADDISON: Make sure you clarify that with the <cough> people,
because for them to see motorboat operators, they'll really run off the wall!
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: Yes. Well they don' t go in there anyway, they don' t fit.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: You know, I wasn' t thinking so much of the speed boats,
because I agree, the speed boats can' t get back in there. But, what I was
thinking of, like the pontoon boats that almost can go up on the beach.
MS. NANNETTE KLEIN: It's very narrow. Some places are not even as wide as
the width of this table.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Well I think that does need to be clear then, to
29
explain it.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. We'll clarify that, like Dave said, in the Plan.
MR. DAVID ADDISON: The other thing I would suggest. . . This came up when we
brought the County Boat Ramp up before the EAC and another little project that
was going in there adjacent to that area. You might want to consider this for
your Boat Ramp too. Is, put some signage up down there on the beaches, or on
that little back bay area there where people pull up on the back side, on
occasion. I don' t know whether that's changed, and you can' t get up there or
not. Put some signage up there that explains to the people that it's a
hazardous pass, and it's shallow, and you have to use common sense and care
when you go through it. It's been a long time since I've been down there on a
boat, but there was an are back in here (pointing to map) where there was some
sand where people would pull up and park their boats on it.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Well that's being dredged.
MR. DAVID ADDISON: Well, it'll fill back up! I guarantee that! Other than
that, I think you've got a pretty good Plan. The question is spelling it out
so when it goes to the State, because in the end, it's the State's land that
you're doing this on, so that they know just exactly what they're getting
into. As far as the dredging is concerned, it'll just fill back up.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mr. Addison, thank you.
(5 minute break)
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Could I get a feeling for how many more speakers we have.
How many more speakers would like to speak on this issue? One, Mrs. Ward,
two, OK. Anyone else? Thank you.
MS. BARBARA HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, Board, my name is Barb Hickman, I live at
102 Kaula Lane, Bonita Springs, Florida, 33923. I am representing "Friends of
Barefoot Beach Preserve" . I'm the President at this point. We're
Incorporating as a non-profit organization, and we were founded about six
months ago. We now have 88 paid members and a mailing list of about 200
people. Our main idea for this Preserve was to keep the Preserve as a
Preserve and help the Rangers as much as we could. We've expressed to the
Land Management Plan, that we like it, and we particularly desire to develop
and maintain the Preserve as a Habitat for the Native Plants and to Animals
living there. We received a draft only one week ago, so we have not had an
opportunity as a group to go over it. Most of our members, I think, would be
very acceptable to it, but there are areas of concern and differences of
opinion. For example, the individuals objected to the addition of previously
unscheduled parking in the State portion of the Preserve. Others have
objected to the construction of Concessions, or the Boardwalk. Still others
have expressed opposition to any development at all. It is not surprising
that there are differences. We feel that the Preserve, the land is so
beautiful, that the more we build on it, the less beauty we have. The
environment is the important thing. For the purposes of all we have listened
to, we would like to be about to get together with friends as a group, and
maybe be able to, at a different time come back and review it again. I
believe this will happen, because it's going to come back from the State. We
30
also would like to know, if there is in writing, what is the difference
between the term Park and Preserve? If this is in writing anywhere? How to
distinguish from one or the other? And, is the entire State/County stretch
Preserve, or is the County part of it a Park? What is included in the term,
Passive Recreation, which we did cover, I believe for this which would be just
the canoeing and the walking on the beach. We would like to be able to get
together again and have another meeting about this. I would like to add that
we're talking about the cost of this, and actually the more pristine that we
keep this, and less building, the less cost it would be to keep it up. If you
put in a home, and concessions, you have more up keep and more costly
expenditures. The way it is now, we think it is beautiful and we think that
most people that come in there, as far as concession, know what's there and
they're prepared to have their own soda, have their own food, and have their
own umbrella. There's no need to have these things available there to rent,
or to purchase.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mrs. Hickman, earlier in the presentation, I had
suggested the possibility of another meeting, a public meeting, perhaps an
evening meeting. So that as many people as possible could attend it. Do you
believe that it would be beneficial for your group and other people in the
community up there?
MS. BARBARA HICKMAN: It could be. It might be able to be arranged. Friends
might be willing to arrange this and have an open meeting. I don' t know. I
think also, another thing that people maybe don' t realize is that maybe 50
percent of the people that use this Park are from Lee or out of State. So,
this is. . . We're at the far end of this County up there, and if we have a
meeting, you're not going to get the people from the lower end of the County
perhaps to come.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Well, what I was thinking, in terms of is a meeting in
that area as kind of, not a town hall meeting, but like that for that. Is
there a facility in that area that would support a public meeting.
MS. BARBARA HICKMAN: Yes. I think there is. It could be made available.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Now, the thing that I'm a little concerned about is
I wouldn' t want to take staff time if it wasn' t, and especially the evening
hours, if it wasn' t going to be well attended. Do you think that type of
thing would be well attended? Do you think there's enough interest?
MS. BARBARA HICKMAN: I have no idea. We can' t make a promise on that.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: You're as close to that beach as anybody is, if it's
Friends of Barefoot Beach, and that's your intent, and the people that are
living up there. Do you think the interest level is high enough in this type
of. . .
MS. BARBARA HICKMAN: Not in Barefoot itself. I think the important thing
here, there again is if we have this kind of a meeting, it's going to be about
the date or the access. It's about the Park. That's what this always turns
around to become, and that's not what the meeting would be about. I think
you're going to end up with the same old meeting.
31
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Well that's kind of what I was after. I just
wanted to get a feel for what your feelings might be on that. Thank you very
much. OK. There was one other speaker. Mrs. Ward?
MRS. MARJORIE WARD: Good Afternoon. My name is Marjorie Ward, I'm the
President of C.A.B.B. (Citizens Association of Bonita Beach) , and though the
name lends you to think that we're talking about Lee County, we are right on
the County line actually. We operate in both Lee and Collier Counties. They
are concerned with the beaches, and the sovereign right that the public has to
get to the beaches which are held by the Governor and Cabinet in Public Trust.
This is where we come from and as a matter of fact, as far as the.. . . . . .not
Barefoot Beach, the Preserve Land that the Barefoot Beach, County Park land we
have. For the last six years, we have done the daily maintenance in that
park as Murdo can verify. 365 days of the year, on Barefoot and Bonita Beach
we're doing the pickup. I'm only mentioning this, for the benefit of the
people who do not know where we come from, where our interest is, and we of
course have been very much concerned with Barefoot Beach Preserve Land and
work very hard to try to get. . . where the County got into the act to try to
get the State to buy as much of it as possible and keep as much of that as
beach frontage, and public land, park land rather than to have it turn it into
condominiums or hotels. Most of what I would've said has already been said by
people before me, so I'm just going to try to hit by saying where our
association agrees with certain statements that have been made.
(end of Tape 2-A)
MRS. MARJORIE WARD: For the record, as far as what Emily Maggio has said
relative to the access to the park and the background we concur a hundred
percent. We do feel that there is a need for a full time Resident Park Ranger
on the property, an around the clock type. If not tomorrow, at least by the
time a little bit more gets invested into the park. As one gentleman
mentioned earlier, it may have certain drawbacks for the Park person that's
there, but as far as protecting the rights of the County, the State, and the
public, there's someone on board, in the event that a fire would start, or any
other type of emergencies. There's someone there with authority that could go
ahead and get the proper protection in there as soon as possible. As far as a
full time resident is concerned on the property, this is not a true. . . I'll
mention the two state parks that are closest because Barefoot Beach Preserve
still is State Land. Leased to the County, but it still belongs to the State.
The two closest State lands are Delnor-Wiggins State Park in Collier County,
which is on the other side of Wiggins Pass, and Lovers Key, which is in Lee
County and that is under the jurisdiction of the Park Rangers. So, they have,
in both places, they do have full time people in there. As far as Delnor,
they have actual homes that the Park Manager and the Assistant Park Manager
live in. On Lover's Key, the couple of Park Rangers live in trailers. But,
they are on the property, so that even at that there has been vandalism that
has occurred. They can' t be everyplace at the same time, but at least it does
deter some of the people if they know that there is a policeman in uniform, it
turns a few people off from trying to do things. When they talked about jet
skis, for heaven sakes, don' t allow any jet skis off of the beach. When
anybody is talking about trying to keep a pristine, beautiful, peaceful,
quiet, a place that you want to go, that is the biggest problem that you can
have to ruination of that whether they be the ones that fly through the air
and land on the ground, or jet skis. Once they get a foothold in, believe me,
32
I've been battling them on Bonita Beach and once they get in, it's almost
impossible to get them out. Concessions is something that someone else
brought up, and I will concur with them. We have never felt too much need for
a natural park to go into concessions. I know there is a certain amount that
most people feel are necessary. But, by the same token, felt that you've
taken care of it for the tourists and you would be taking care of the people
that live there. Because the people that use the beach that are residents
will bring their own water, their own snacks, if they want to stay long enough
in order to eat or whatever the case may be. If you do go into concessions,
try to keep it as low key as possible, because if you don' t you've already got
another job to pick up trash after the people finish throwing their cans this
way and their potato chip bag the other way. It's an education process to try
to get the people to pick up after themselves. There are a couple of other
things that I wanted to mention. I do not feel that 50 percent of the people
that go to this beach are from Lee County or are from out of State. But, if
they are, it is because the signage at the road is so small most people don't
realize that there even happens to be a beach in there. They go by because
there isn' t a large enough sign to see it. And a gate house of any sort is
intimidating to individuals. they figure that's private property on the other
side of it and they don' t bother to go in to find out what there is in there.
So, I think that if they realize that there was a beach in there, there would
be a lot more people using it. The other subject I wanted to touch on, was
when you're talking about the removal of the exotics. I know, because I have
been working for years now with the State Park system and I know how the State
feels as far as the removal of exotics and returning everything to it's
natural Florida vegetation. However, there is a problem for anyone going a
beach in the State of Florida. There's a tremendous amount of revealing today
about skin cancer which is caused because people are in the sun too much.
Now, when you are removing the exotics, please do it in installments. I know
you're going to prefer, for financial reasons, but when you come to removing
them along the beach, if you take out an Australian Pine, I know the whole
history of them as far as erosion and the the fact that nothing grows
underneath, and the state's attitude, Collier County's attitude, etc. But, if
you take out one of those big ones that does provide a place for someone to
put a couple of chairs, a chaise lounge, or a blanket underneath, and stay out
of the sun, when they go to the beach. When you take it out, have something
ready already planted in that vicinity which will provide some shade. In
other words, don' t go through as was done in the section of Barefoot beach is
right behind the public County Park that's adjacent to Bonita Beach. There
were some beautiful Australian Pines in there, and when the Developers go in,
there wasn' t a thing left. Everything went, and there was nothing left but
hot sand. There was no shade, and no place that anyone could get under. So,
when you remove them, prepare that as a portion that as you take one out,
you've already planted something else in the vicinity before it is taken out.
I'm talking about the beach. I'm not talking about back in. But, when it
does come to even the back in portion, and you're talking about the cost of
removal of exotics. Our association now for about two years has been working
periodically out at Lovers Key State Recreation Area. Some of the work that
we've done out there enabled us to get it opened to the public, because there
was no money coming down from Tallahassee to provide anything. So, we went
out there, and have gone out there to get it open, in crews, with our own
equipment, our own labor, anywhere from maybe 5 or 6 people up to 35 people at
a time. We've gone through and cut out the Brazilian Peppers, Australian
Pines, etc. in order to get the park opened for the State. We continue to do
33
it. We were just out there about two weeks ago and doing the same thing,
because it is a land area comparable to Barefoot, and we've done it on a
shoestring. Because we've worked maybe one or two Park Personnel and a lot of
volunteers in taking the things out. It takes longer, it's harder,
but it doesn' t have to be, as long as you don' t have a deadline that you've
got to get a certain amount done in a certain time. You can stretch it out,
and the money shouldn' t scare you as far as the cost to take it out, because
substantiating what Jeff Moore said, that is much as Lovers Key is. You can' t
go in with equipment and cut them out, because there's a Mangrove and there's
a buttonwood, a gumbo limbo. Things of this sort are in there. You can' t go
through and just cut a swap, because when you do, you're removing all the
original native Florida Vegetation. It's difficult for someone that's not
experienced to even be about to tell the difference between the two. So, a
lot of it has to be handled by hand. It is a way, as long as you're not in a
rush and as you put other things in as you take them out on the beach, and the
back if you don' t that's up to you. But, you don' t have to go in and just
sweep everything through at one time. You've actually got a lease for 50
years so you've got 49 more years in order to finish it. There's a good many
of us that'll be dead long before then. Thank you. Oh! Incidentally! As
far as the basic plan is concerned, we are very much in agreement with it.
It's very much like what we had in mind years ago when it was contemplated
even being purchased, and how we hoped that most of it would be developed, and
we think there's been an excellent job done!
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Are there any other public speakers at all?
MRS. NAIDA EISENBUD: I'd like to make a comment. I'm Naida Eisenbud, I'm a
resident of Barefoot Beach. In the beginning we talked about the financial
impact concern that you have for the improvements. I should say, first hand,
that this is terrific plan. It's beautiful! it's well done! I'm a plant
person, and I'm delighted with everything that has been proposed. About the
financial impact and you concern for the money, perhaps required. I wasn' t
around in 1987 when this was decided upon. At that time, was there any
discussion of when you agreed or signed the Lease for the State, was there
any discussion about financial responsibility in maintaining it? Why are we
concerned now? Didn' t you expect these things to happen?
MR. MURDO SMITH: I wasn' t at the signing either, but the State has had these
requirements for quite some time and I think that the County must assume some
responsibility for some of these improvements. But, I think like everybody
said, this is a broad plan for the Preserve, and it doesn' t have to happen
overnight. We can work through the budgetary problems, and hopefully with the
assistance of the volunteers and CABB and that up there, we can make a dent in
those things. But, as far as the funding obligations, I'm sure that the
County has some realization, of whose going to be of some impact.
MRS. NAIDA EISENBUD: Whether it's State owned, or County owned, it is the
taxpayers facility and it's our Preserve, and it's ours to preserve. We have
to look at it that way. Remember that it has to be preserved. It's unique!
I'm a plant person. We talked about Australian Pines, and the consequences of
beach erosion and the benefit of shade. I think it's a lot better to use
umbrellas for shade to prevent cancer, than to allow these big trees to pull
away the soil and do away with natural planted vegetation which is there. I
never take a walk that I don' t pull up a seedling, and Australian Pine.
34
They're all over! You can' t keep them under control! They drop seeds and
they start up like bad pennies. We talked a little bit about the back bay
area. It's really not navigable. I don' t think we should worry a great deal
about offending any boaters that might want to come in. I think that once
they see it's dense vegetation, they'll back off. There was also discussion
of the signage. In the the County Agreement it says very clearly, a sign
design shall be submitted to the Board for approval prior to construction of
said sign. The Board agrees that the entrance sign to the park shall be of
the same size and design specification as required of other signs located at
the entrance to Lely Beach Boulevard. So this is not something that was
decided upon by Barefoot Beach residents. It was a County Agreement. Thank
you.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Thank you very much Mrs. Eisenbud. Mrs. Skinner, did
you have something to say.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I can' t speak fully for the County, but I would like to
explain the County's position on funding. Right now, as you know, we're into
a Recessionary Era. I've been with the County 22 something odd years, and
I've never seen budgets quite as tight, and people being expected to do a lot
more work than usual and so forth. We also have some taxpayers out there,
that any project that comes up now that needs funded, they're against. This
going on just in Naples, it's going on everywhere. So, the County does know
what they're responsibilities are here, but it might be a slower development
than some people are. . .
MRS. NAIDA EISENBUD: I appreciate that!
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Is there any other public comment? (no response)
OK. If there's no other public comment at this time, we'll close the Public
Hearing, and we will begin a Board discussion towards a motion. Mrs. Thomas
would you like to begin the discussion? Do you have any thoughts, Mr.
Clendenon?
PUBLIC DISCUSSION CLOSED
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Just a couple of comments. I can see how much work
went in that. I've one small question that has to do with the Rangers. I
noted in the Plan that you are proposing that the Rangers be qualified as Law
Enforcement Officers. Will they be State Certified? Do you have to go
through the Police Academy?
MR. GARY FRANCO: That is correct.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: OK. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mrs. Till?
MS. GENEVA TILL: Well, I feel that this is a good plan, I think it shows a
lot of work, and there's just one thing. I feel like this probably will be
taken care of too. About the public usage, and it did not have any fees, and
the parking and so on. Be sure that our Legal responsibility is taken care
of. OK.
35
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Mr. Mueller?
MR. GIL MUELLER: No. I voiced my comments during the discussion. I have
nothing more to say about it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Just to share a couple of my thoughts. All other
things being equal, I would in some respects like to defer this issue, but I
don' t think that's very practical, because the County Board's going to meet in
November and I think they deserve our input, and we don' t have another meeting
scheduled and this is a Special Meeting for this purpose. So, maybe with
respect to some of these issues, they'll have to get worked out between now an
County Board approval regardless. It seems to me, just from listening to the
comments that we concur in the concept that's presented by the plan, and the
Audience and the Board pretty much endorse the concept of preservation.
Extremely low intensity, and prevention of development, the regulation of the
uses. So, I think in that sense, we're all pretty much in harmony. I was
going through of different people that spoke, and I thought there were some
very good comments made and questions raised. I would like to see addressed
in some fashion. Mr. Fogg spoke about the out-parcel and the inholding
situation. I think that, that issue should get addressed prior to Plan
adoption. I think there's an issue with respect to the residence on site.
Should there be an on site residence or not as part of the Plan? That was
also something that Mr. Fogg had discussed. Mrs. Maggio addressed the number
of issues. I don' t that's in context of this Plan that we need to get into
the access issues, although I appreciate the fact that it exists, and I think
they need to be addressed. She talked in terms of the exotics. I think
there's an issue regarding the cost on the exotic removal. She had a comment
on the Environmental Study which is also something that Mr. Mueller spoke to.
What is the impact of Environmental on the beach, and I think that much of
that work has been done already, and my question would be: Can it be
incorporated into our plans? I think that the County has paid for a lot of
consulting on the environmental issues up there, and I'd like to see some of
that incorporated into the plan. Mrs. Maggio raised the issue of the access
thing. Paying the parking fee, or no fees, or whatever. I think that's
probably part of our County wide review process when we sit and discuss User
Fees. So I don' t know that we need to specifically address that in the
concept of the Plan. Mrs. Ward mentioned the Permanent Resident, again, this
goes to the Ranger issue. I think another issue is the boating, as it relates
to the beach front environment. Maybe not the backwater because it's not
navigable. Speeding boats and the Jet Ski issue should be addressed. Mr.
Addison had a number of comments that I thought were very very good comments.
and drawing upon his expertise of a Biologist. I especially concurred with
his comment about maximizing the number of parking spaces a 100 and saying
that in the Plan, not just providing for 100, but saying this is as far as we
go. He had a comment on having more detail on exotic removal and the timing
of exotics being out before the boardwalk came in. I thought that was a very
good comment. He made the comment regarding signage in the water areas. I'm
trying not to be repetitive as amongst the people. Mrs. Hickman and a couple
of the other speakers raised the issue regarding construction of Concessions
in the State Preserve area. I think that's probably an important point that
we should discuss a little bit. There were a number of other issues raised
that take place in the context of other specific discussions we have on a
County-wide basis relating to our Park System, like again the User Fees was a
good example. The Park Ranger Program I think was a good example. A couple
36
of others. I think we probably should discuss how we feel on those issues. I
can tell you philosophically where I'm coming from which is, the minimal
amount of intervention in this environmental system is what we should be
striving for, because too often we do things and we think we're improving by
constructing and developing and that's just not the case. I enjoy the system.
I live up in the north side of the County. Beautiful facility! Just
gorgeous! I think we need to limit our intervention into this system as much
as possible. We do have to do some exotic removal. I think we ought to have
a Plan, but I think we ought to understand the cost of that, and the
effectiveness of that Plan. I don't want to get started down the road towards
exotic removal and find out that we're into a bottomless pit of expenditure.
I want to know exactly what that is, and how much it's going to cost us over
time. The boating issues I don' t think are too much issues in that area as
long as you do provide for the boating on the south part of the Preserve. I
think it's a fair trade-off to restricted, in the northerly two thirds of the
Preserve area, and that is pretty much what occurs today from what I've heard
myself. I'm concerned about the utilities, and the extension of the utilities
both from a cost standpoint and related to development. The less we can
intrude and have to lay in utilities and everything else, I think the better
for the property. I think that's about it. Could we have some further
discussion on those issues?
MR. GIL MUELLER: I have a question that I wanted to ask Murdo, Mr. Chairman.
Correct me on this. I just want to clarify my own thinking on it. The Land
Management Plan as it exists, it's obvious you've anticipated much of what the
State is going to demand. When a Land Management Plan of this type is
submitted to the State, and they review it. What do they customarily do?
Make revisions or suggestions, send it back to you, you alter it, send it back
to them? What's the procedure?
MR. MURDO SMITH: I believe that is the procedure. We'll send it up to them.
They review it. They send back their comments and then we have to respond to
those comments that they put in the Management Plan.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Can we at that time alter in any way, or make additional
revisions, or additions to it, or must you stick to the original commitment?
MR. MURDO SMITH: I think that you could make revisions at that time, but I
think you'd have to let them know what you're revising.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Oh. Sure! Sure! Prior to the time you send it back to
them obviously. So in other words, we do have a little time on this, it isn' t
something that we have to take action on necessarily.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. It's just basically a Draft, and then we'd want to get
it to the BCC so it can go to the State in a timely manner.
MR. GIL MUELLER: When you make proposals In a Land Management Plan of this
nature, it isn' t a positive commitment. They don' t necessarily hold you to
the things that you propose to do. But if they say yes, you must do that
sometime in the future?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Ladd?
37
MR. LADD RYZIW: Murdo, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a request to make a
little further statement.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Sure! Go ahead.
MR. LADD RYZIW: I just had a couple of statements from a summarization
standpoint. One are I wanted to just touch on, is kind of the purpose of the
Management Plan. Let me just go ahead and reference just exactly what it says
in the Lease Agreement. That the purpose of the Management Plan, is that it
provides a basic guideline for Management activities. It's broad based
Management Plan for activities that will occur in the park for a long period
of time. I'd like to go ahead and just offer a comment that the purpose of
the Management Plan, it's very broad based to provide a definition of what
Collier County would plan to do with the Park over a period of years and to
identify certain things. So to say, identification and a definition component
here. Murdo and I spent a few hours discussing a kind of follow up Plan to
the Management Plan. I think a lot of the comments that have been made here
today refer to a implementation plan if you will. If you look at the Park as
a land development endeavor, what we're really looking at here is coming up as
a follow up Plan to this particular plan to be approved by DNR is probably
coming with a program for implementation of the Preserve over a period of
years which would encompass probably environmental assessment, or
environmental impact statement areas. Probably the implementation program
would cover a lot of the financing aspects to the Preserve over a period of
years and how Collier County perceives the implementation of the Preserve, the
construction, the design, and so forth occurring in a period of years. How
it's going to be financed and various other very detailed aspects to the
implementation of this concept. That particular program is something I think
will probably cover a lot of the comments that have been made here by this
Board as well as by the public here.
MR. GIL MUELLER: What you're saying, is it's a submission of approval. Your
submitting this for the approval of what you tentatively plan to do. Is that
the essence of it?
MR. LADD RYZIW: That's correct.
MR. GIL MUELLER: But, you aren't necessarily committed legally, or otherwise
to doing all the things that are contained in this. You are submitting this
for the State's initial approval?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: For a concept.
MR. GIL MUELLER: But, as far as specifics are concerned, you are not going to
be held by the State to fulfilling those specifics?
MR. LADD RYZIW: Yes. I would tend to agree with you 100 percent, I don' t
don' t think the Staff & DNR is not a position to make any commitments, or as
part of the approval of the Management Plan to make any approvals or
acknowledgments on any specifics. Such as where perhaps a guard house will be
located. People need to keep in mind that this particular implementation Plan
that I keep speaking of, a work plan, or whatever you'd like to call it, keep
in mind that when we start implementing various components, and Collier County
start implementing various components of the Preserve we're looking at as many
38
as probably twelve (13) environmental agencies that get involved in the
various approval processes. So, DNR is the only responsible agency for the
Land Management itself, as kind of a land owner. I also wanted to mention
that it's right in the Lease Agreement that it's broad based. It provides
basic guidelines for an overall management activities and also its subject to
review by the parties every five years.
MR. MURDO SMITH: It could be amended, but they have to approve of the
amendment.
MR. GIL MUELLER: In other words if we were to make a motion to accept this
concept, this proposal, and it went to the next level of being submitted to
the State, there would be the opportunity at later date for revisions
providing it would be submitted to the State. Is that the procedure?
MR. LADD RYZIW: I would say absolutely. I would say yes. I think what's
important for this Board to recognize as well as the public in opinion, is the
generalized uses that Collier County's proposing. The uses for the land
itself. I think that's extremely important! I think the boating issue, I
think the overall usage. The detailed issues of perhaps the level of detail
of exotic removal, the exact location perhaps of the guard house, and those
type of things will around for quite a few years. But I think the general
type uses of the Jet Skiing, the boat access, and the amount of vehicular
traffic, parking lots, those general type uses out here on a land mass is
going to be extremely important. It is going to be extremely scrutinized by
DNR. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Just a second. Now, Mr. Ryziw, I have a little trouble
with what you are saying. Basically what I hear you saying is, "Well, we
don' t have to go to the tenth level of detail in what we're reviewing", and I
appreciate that. I understand what you're trying to accomplish here, because
we obviously don' t have all the environmental assessments in hand, and the
habitat surveys and all that type of thing. But, on the other hand, I think
that we need to have a level of detail. This Plan ought to have a section on
implementation. Just if it's a broad statement on how we're going to do that,
because if we don' t understand the feasibility of implementation, I think it
makes it more difficult to understand what it is we're approving in terms of a
plan. We have to know that we can do what it is we're talking about doing.
MR. LADD RYZIW: Mr. Chairman, I didn' t mean to dismiss it as being a separate
plan. It could be linked to this overall general management plan. It's a
decision of the Department of Parks and Recreation.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: There's a lot of input being made by the public here,
which I thought were excellent ideas. As we vote on this plan, I don' t. . . You
know, we're to the point of decision. These people came here to speak, and
they had a lot of input, it was good input, I think the County Commission
ought to be aware that these are some of the things that the public is
thinking about when they review this plan. I don' t want to get away from that
either. Do you know what I'm saying here?
MR. LADD RYZIW: I agree with you.
(end of Tape #2-B)
39
MR. LADD RYZIW: What I feel comfortable with saying here, is that the overall
Management Plan that Staff has put together, I believe it's and excellent
overall Plan. Very broad based, it goes for a definition, and identification.
Keep in mind, more importantly, that the underlying purpose of the Management
Plan is to put forth Collier County's admission statement, objective, and
purposes. That's how I'm going, in disagreement. Keep in one thing in mind,
that the implementation period for this Preserve, no one has really
established that yet. As Murdo mentioned, it's going to be over a period of
time. It may occur in 10, 15, or 20 years. So, I think the follow up
document to the Management Plan is so much more of a Implementation Plan.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Or that could be part of this though.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Murdo, what do you need then? Do you need a motion from
this Board as far as this thing is concerned?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. Well, we have to go before the BCC to present this to
the State. What we would like, is approval from you to do that. If you want
us to put in specific things, we could try to accommodate some of those things
that the public has brought up. They've brought up some, like the Board has
said, some excellent concerns and questions, and I think we can get together
with the consultants and see if we can work on some of these concerns that
they have before we submit it to the BCC.
MR. GIL MUELLER: You don' t need us to specify any of those particular things
that you considered?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. I've been taking some pretty decent notes on. . .
MS. GENEVA TILL: That out parcel, there. It seems to me that we should. . .
That should be something that if there's a condemnations suite or something
that should come before we start any of the other things with that. We surely
don' t want a Condominium, we don' t want anything that's going to destroy what
we have there. If something can be done first, that should come first before
we start on any of it. That includes the Guard <02.4> Condemnation Suite on
that!
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. Well, we'll check to see what the County Attorneys
Office's feeling is on that out parcel, if it's going to be a negative, or
whatever.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I'll make a motion that this Board advise the Board of
County Commissioners that they accept this Land Management Plan Draft for
Barefoot Beach Preserve. Accept the concept of this Plan then.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. We have a motion.
MS. GENEVA TILL: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Seconded by Mrs. Till. Now, discussion on the motion.
Can we make some reference to the other comments and concerns that were
brought forward today? Not that we have to specify each one, but I think that
those have to be transmitted to the County Board and also worked on as part of
the process between not and the time of the County Board Meeting.
40
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well , I'll make an Addendum to that motion that Murdo
incorporate those suzgestions and those comments by our speakers today, and
submits this for County Board Commission approval.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. In other words, that they be considered by staff
prior to County Commission approval, and that the Plan address the issues that
have been presented by the audience and also by the Board Members?
MR. GIL MUELLER: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Mrs. Till, It's your second on the motion.
MS. GENEVA TILL: I'll accept the Addendum.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. We have a motion and a second. Is there any further
discussion by the Board Members? (no response) OK. If there's no further
discussion by the Board Members, the motion is to recommend approval in
concept of the Plan as prepared by the Staff for Management of the Barefoot
Beach Preserve, and to further have the Staff review the comments that have
been made by the audience participants and by the PARAB Board members prior to
submission to the County Board and to make provisions or alternative
provisions in the plan accordingly. Is that a fair characterization of the
motion?
MR. GIL MUELLER: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK, It there's no further discussion, then I'd like to
take a vote. All in favor, signify by saying I. . . Was that unanimous? Mrs.
Thomas? Unanimous? OK. That motion passes 5-0. That's unanimous. OK. I'd
like to thank everybody for appearing today, and I know it takes a lot of time
out of your days too, and this is very helpful input!
MR. MURDO SMITH: OK. Thank you very much.
B. USER FEES:
MR. GIL MUELLER: During the meeting on Wednesday, October 23, Murdo had
mentioned that he had contacted Mr. Dorrill and asked him. He polled the
Board, determined whether we should discuss User Fees and you had not
heard at that point. However, I think you said that you were going to
pursue it. You're going to talk about it. He called me this morning, and
that's one of the things I've discussed with him, and I asked him whether
or not he felt that it would be a good idea if this board discussed User
Fees. Neil Dorrill totally approved of that, and I asked him if he would
pass that word on to you at today's meeting. I have a feeling that he did
not have the opportunity to do so, because he had to leave early.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: He has meeting with some of the Commissioners. I
have a meeting with him in the morning though. So, if there's anything
that you would like me to talk to him about.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, in as much that he did not have the opportunity to
formally pass that on to Murdo, I'm bringing the subject up. Murdo might
want to confirm with him. . .
41
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I brought it up all ready to Mr. Dorrill and Ms.
Pike, his Assistant, and they told me to review some memos and Board
information going back to that item that where it was said that the BCC
would like for us to have the. . . There was a memo from Commissioner Volpe
that came down, and wanted a 15 member Task Force, etc. Then PARAB came
back and said that you thought you were the Board, that you were doing
this, the Board was already in place, and he said he thought that was a
good idea if you would invite some other outsiders (i.e. City of Naples
representative) to go ahead and start reviewing and see what we could come
up with, with a unified, maybe a beach access fee, or not fee, or whatever
the feeling of the people that were involved in this study. But, he would
like for you all to go ahead with the study.
MR. GIL MUELLER: So, can this be placed on the Agenda for the November
meeting then?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: For the Board Agenda?
MR. GIL MUELLER: For this Board's Agenda.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: This Board. Yes. I started to say you don' t want to
go to the Board. . . Murdo, that's. . . I don' t want to set your Agenda Kim,
if that's all right with you all, and discuss how you want to proceed with
that.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: We're very anxious to get into a discussion of that
issue.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: OK. The Productivity Committee as you know, has
highly recommended that we do this. But, there are a lot of objections.
All kinds.
MR. GIL MUELLER: To what?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: To the Fees being charged. They call the beach as
God's gift to us and we shouldn' t charge for that.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: We're willing to take the issues on.
MR. GIL MUELLER: That's what Mr. Dorrill said this morning, and my
comment to him was, that I think we've got to standardize these fees. I'm
not necessarily we've got to charge certain fees at certain places. But,
I think we've got to have some standardization.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Exactly! Are you going to charge at some beaches
and not at others? I mean see here you go, and the argument is that you
go to the expense of paying this person to collect fees, and it doesn' t
even pay the salary of the person that you hired to collect the fees.
Well, it pays part of it.
MR. MURDO SMITH: It pays most of everybody's fees.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Would you be here to participate in that discussion?
You obviously have some very positive thoughts on it. I think you could
42
contribute a great deal.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I can' t. I'm just telling you all the things I get
telephone calls about on this at my office. But, people have real strong
feelings, and I'm telling you when you start this Public Hearing, the
process, you're going to be blasted from this side and that side and it's
going to be hard to come up with something that's going to please
everybody.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Well, that's part of the responsibility that we
accept of that <?>.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Exactly!
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: We've always been able to reach a consensus.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, it's an important item on that Productivity Study,
and I think that it has a priority.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: And the BCC wants this done. I mean they want this
reviewed, they want some action taken on it. So, I would say go ahead and
proceed.
MR. GIL MUELLER: There are other topics that we could discuss, such as
the. . . Well, I wrote them down here somewhere. . . But, this one has been
hanging there for quite a number of months and I think we ought to get to
it.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: You all had decided to wait until the Fall when more
people that would be concerned about this would be back. I don't know if
you want to hold Public Hearings here, if you want to hold them different
places, if you want to schedule them in the Board Room? What are your
plans? Or, do you meet next time to make a plan?
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, do you feel it's important to hold it public? For
us to. . . In the discussion of unifying and standardizing fees, to the best
degree possible for at least similar sites. Do you think it's necessary
for us to have an elaborate Public Discussion on this?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I think that's what they are looking for. They want
input from all interested or concerned citizens. From the City, from
Marco, from every place that there are beaches in the area. They want the
people that are accessing those beaches to know there's Public Hearings
and be able to attend. In places that may be central located would be.
The central location might be the Board Room.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well then, let me ask you another question. Do you. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: We're talking about Boat Ramp Fees and everything. I
know what you're saying.
MR. GIL MUELLER: That's what I'm going to say. We have Boat Rental
sites, we have beaches, we have tennis courts, we have various categories
of user facilities. Were you thinking that we would just discuss Beach
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User Facilities or encompassing the entire. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: No. I think you're going to have to do the boat ramp
and the beach. I don't think you need to go too far afield in who is
going to pay fees to play Baseball, and who is going to pay fees to do
tennis. And that kind of thing. I think you're going to get so wide
spread that you're going to go off in other directions. But, I think
you're going to set the precedent by establishing a uniform, whatever, not
to do, or to do. Whatever you come up with will probably interface with
the charges for the other services at the Parks or relate to.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: One thing we may want to keep in mind, is we've got
three Board Member expirations on term coming up that are imminent, and
mine's one of them, I think. Who else?
MR. MURDO SMITH: Mrs. Till, and Mr. Clendenon.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: So, I'm sure there will be re-appointments, but on
the other hand. To the extent that there may not be, we may. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: You'll have new Board Members maybe, unless. . .
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: All I'm saying is, you don' t want to get foot on
either side of the fence, so that part of the discussion occurs with
certain Board Members and part of is it occurs with others.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I think it would be very unproductive to. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Wait until all this is set.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, that and I can't envision for example, new Board
members coming into this thing. Assuming that there might be new Board
members. I hope there won' t be and I hope that we retain the same crew.
But, if we had new Board Members, to take this issue up, and do a good job
on it. I think it would be chaotic.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Well, you're also going to have to consider what
Commissioner Volpe wants, and the fact that he wants some organizations to
be involved in this.
MS. GENEVA TILL: Well, see that's where I. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: You see. You're going to have other opinions coming
in anyway.
MR. GIL MUELLER: What other organizations does he want?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: City of Naples, because the beach parking with the
City he wants brought in with this too.
MR. GIL MUELLER: In other words, does he want these people notified
before the November meeting, that we are going to be. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Yes. Whenever we are going to have the public
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meeting. I think you probably need one meeting of your own people here to
set something in place. Schedule the Public Hearing Meetings and where
you're going to have them, and what you're going to discuss, more or less.
What do you think, Kim? I'm not Chairman.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Well, we've tried to do this a couple of times, and
we seem to keep going back and forth with it. Back in July or June, I
think I was saying we really ought to have right down at the County Court
House, evening meetings, schedule three of them, or two of them, and start
the discussion. Get it resolved.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I think you're right. Do you think you ought to pin
down exactly what you're going after?
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I don' t think our scope should go much beyond the
beach issues and the boat ramp issues, those two things.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Then you're going to have to advertise, say where and
when it's going to be, and it's open to the public.
MR. MURDO SMITH: We could do the same we did for this meeting. We
advertised in the Naples Daily News. There was going to be a public
meeting for this specifically, and what we could do, is make sure that the
Naples Daily News gets the Press Release that states what we'd be
discussing.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I think we ought to do that right away, and have
those meetings in November, if we're going to do it, because my fear is if
you had a different board member and that. . . You know, so you'd have the
meetings and then you'd have to vote on issues after the meetings with new
Board members. That doesn't. . .
MR. GIL MUELLER: No it doesn't. . . That's a big problem. What if that
happens, were we to have a meeting in November or a meeting in December
and then possibly a new Board member in January, it's going to be chaotic.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Maybe your member might want to extend their term of
service by three months.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Kim, why don' t you and Murdo get together, decide
what we want to talk, make up and agenda, pick a date, advertise it in the
paper, and we'll be there.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK.
MS. GENEVA TILL: I've already submitted my application back and talked
with Ms. Filson today.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Tomorrow is the last day, right?
MR. MURDO SMITH: I believe it's the end of this month.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, I don' t want to have to get into this thing in
November and December, and then find ourselves with a bunch of new faces
45
possibly in January or February, and then have to go through this whole
business again with new people and educate them. To me that would be a
disaster.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: If we do this, I would do it in November.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: Make up an Agenda. Pick a date. Advertise it.
Write me a letter, as you usually do.
MR. MURDO SMITH: We could go ahead and schedule it for our next meeting,
and that way we could advertise it, and tell everybody at the regular
scheduled meeting their going to discuss beach parking fees.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: No, I think it should be a separate meeting.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Do you think so?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Oh yeah. I think public hearings should be.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I would do an evening meeting even.
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: An evening meeting, and just limit it to this. . .
MR. GIL MUELLER: OK. How soon can we get something like that off the
ground considering the advertising factor and so forth.
MR. MURDO SMITH: It could be relatively quick. A couple weeks.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well shall we tenatively set a date then?
MR. MURDO SMITH: OK. When is Thanksgiving?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Well you're going to have to call Barbara Pedone and
find out when you can get the Board Room. When it's not vacant.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Let's try. . . What night is good? Wednesday night?
Thursday night? Tuesday night?
MS. GENEVA TILL: Monday or Tuesday.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Tuesday night the Board might still be in a meeting
there. Wednesday night they have meetings. Monday night or Thursday
night would be a good night.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Do you have a calendar there Murdo?
MR. MURDO SMITH: No I don' t I can go get one though.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I've got one.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Why don' t we do it on Monday night?
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: And before Murdo goes to press on the Agenda, you
make sure that you approve of it first.
46
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: There is three hot issues. That's the Beach Parking
Sticker issue. Should be continue to pay all that money for County to go
free. The unified beach parking for all of our beaches, and the Boat Ramp
Fees. That's the three issues.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I was under the impression, Mrs. Skinner, that the Board
had already decided to pay that, whatever it is.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: They're studying it right now. I think Mr. Woodruff,
Mr. Dorrill, and Mr. Yonkowski, and their Finance Director are all talking
about what they honestly should pay. What are legitimate charges and so
forth.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, if they are going to be deciding this. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Let me find out tomorrow if we even need to address
that issue at this point. OK.
MR. MURDO SMITH: I think we have to be very careful too, on what's going
to happen if the City starts charging County residents to get stickers.
OK. We may have people here voicing their concerns about beach parking
fees. So I think that, that's going to be an issue that you have to be
concerned with, because the County and the City right now are at odds
about what they're going to pay for this, because last year the payment
that we made was approximately 160 some thousand dollars, and this year
it's supposed to be more. I've got 96 budgeted, and we've heard anywhere
upwards $216,000. So, I think we have to be careful of how we. . .
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Not only that, the City right now is plugging tickets
or marking tickets some way, that they are only good for six months
because this think is in limbo.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Why should the taxpayers of Collier County pay to allow
certain individuals to go free to a specific beach when the other beaches
they have pay.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Then the County residents would say. . .
MR. GIL MUELLER: Would you explain that to me Mrs. Skinner, I know you
know all about this.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: No, I don' t know all about it, but you have people on
the other hand saying those beaches are in the County and they should have
access to them. Free access to those beaches.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well, then they should have free access to Clam, and
Vanderbilt, and Tigertail.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Oh yes! They feel that way!
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. Very, very strongly!
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Look! Let's do this. We've got to approve the
contract don' t we?
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MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes, I would like to talk to you about the contract for
the bath house.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. We've left this, that we're going to establish
an agenda. I'm going to do that with Murdo. We're going to get dates,
we're going to have Hearings, and I'll give the Board the dates and times
and the agendas, and we're going going to have meetings. Do you want to
have one? Two? Let's do two.
MS. GENEVA TILL: One prior to.
MR. GIL MUELLER: It won' t be necessary to talk to Mr. Dorrill? We have
your approval to proceed with that?
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: Go ahead!
MR. GIL MUELLER: OK
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: I'll tell him in the morning, and if he says now,
I'll get back to you.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: You know, and that is if he does say no.
MR. GIL MUELLER: Well told me yes, this morning on the telephone.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Let's make sure though that we've got that
authority. I do not want to be a renegade situation.
MS. MARTHA SKINNER: You are not going to be. I won' t let that happen
either.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: All right! That aside. We have a contract we have
to consider.
C. CONTRACT FOR THE BAREFOOT BEACH BATHHOUSE:
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. At the last PARAB Meeting last week, I presented a
Bid for a Bathhouse a Barefoot Beach and the Board questioned some of the
amounts in there for specific items (i.e. the Building, and the
walkaways) . We went back and reviewed the Bid. In the bid document
itself, the gentlemen who was the low bidder, stated on the bid document
that decking was included in the boardwalks. We would like have the PARAB
Board recommend that the lowest responsive bidder be awarded the bid,
based on those assumptions. However, I have another little kicker I want
to through in there. We want to try to go back and see if we can get that
down to a little bit. . . Well, there's two aspects. There's the
Bathhouse, and then there's a Dune Crossover Walkway that is in there
also. One is part of the whole Dune Walkway system, but it's being used
as a handicapped access. The other part is the Bathhouse. The Bathhouse
was actually only like about $100,000.00 the rest of it was for the Dune
Clearing, and so forth. So, what we would like to do, it go back to that
bidder, and see if we get it reduced some. We'll have to say like about
$160,000 or $150,000 in that neighborhood. What I would like to do
though, is not to hold up the process, if you could give us your blessing.
48
Say, "OK. Go with the lowest responsive bidder", which would be that
Vanderbilt Bay and then see if we can make some adjustments in the scope
of it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Maybe I'm a little more keyed into the fairness issue
in bidding, but if you go back and open discussions with the low guy,
don' t you have a responsibility to give the other people fair opportunity
to. . .
MR. MURDO SMITH: There's a County Purchasing Policy that you can
negotiate to some point with the bidders.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: It sounds like a pretty significant negotiation.
It's not even up to the amount, the Purchasing Policy says that we have
the right to negotiate. It's basically about 25%. That's when they start
getting saying, "Well now you're really starting to cut back on some
people's bids" .
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. So, it's within our policies. We're OK there.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Next question. Vanderbilt Bay? Did you do any
checking? They have not done any work for the County? Did they have
similar projects? Are they qualified?
MR. MURDO SMITH: I checked with Ladd, who has been working with that for
us. He said that they're a good company and so forth. He's checked them
out. They thought that the prices that they gave were very competitive.
He's in the Transportation Department.
MR. MURDO SMITH: If we're going to have a special meeting in November,
maybe what we could do, is I could fill you in on what's happening with
that Bid at that time too. I don' t want to. . . I know your concerns, Kim,
and if you want to bring it back at that time. We won't do anything that
is against County Purchasing Policy. You could have a motion if you want,
or if you want to wait until the next meeting, that's fine with me.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I guess what it all comes down to is we are relying
upon you to steer us in the right direction, and I have faith in you doing
that. I just. . . This has been a pet peeve with County Bidding
Procedures, is that if they know the process, then anybody can come in and
low bid.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Right. Then you go the opposite way.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Yes. So, As long as you're satisfied we're staying
within those procedures.
MR. MURDO SMITH: We would not go beyond the County Procedures.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: I want to put the issue to bed. Is there a motion?
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: I make a motion that we award the contractor the
49
lowest bid, but having them subject to being about to go in with further
negotiations within County Purchasing Policies.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Motion by Mr. William Clendenon. Is there a
second. The motion made by Mr. William Clendenon is that we accept the
lowest responsive bidder, subject to being about to go in with further
negotiations within County Purchasing Policies. That's Mr. Clendenon's
motion. Is there a second to that?
MS. GENEVA TILL: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Seconded by Mrs. Till. Is there any further
discussion? (no response) If there's no further discussion, all in favor
signify by saying "I" . . . Unanimous. OK. Now, are we all set, or is. . .
MS. CHERRYLE THOMAS: I don' t know anything about it. I wasn' t here, so
do you want my vote for yes? Or, do you want me just to abstain?
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: It's your decision as to what you do on your vote.
MS. CHERRYLE THOMAS: Well, I'll leave it up to Murdo. I'm requesting his
judgment. I wasn' t here. I didn' t go through the packet, so I don't know
what you're all talking about.
MR. MURDO SMITH: We're talking about the Bathhouse at Barefoot.
MS. CHERRYLE THOMAS: I can abstain or vote, but it's his opinion.
MR. MURDO SMITH: OK. We could probably have you abstain, since you don't
feel comfortable with it. That would be the best way to do it.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Four to zero with one abstention.
D. FRANK MACKLE COMMUNITY CENTER PUNCH LIST:
MR. GIL MUELLER: One last comment, for me at least. I don' t know if
you're aware of this, but there is still a number of minor things that
have to be accomplished at FMCP. I talked to Bill Flynn, who is the
County man, and he tells me that he has called Lynch every week for seven
weeks asking them to please come out and finish these little bitty things.
They have not done so. My question to him was, do we owe them any money?
He said yes, we owe. We owe them $15,000. But, obviously it has no
effect on Lynch Construction. How can we avoid that in future instances?
This is a good instance where perhaps it might be avoided, and a
contractor simply not coming back and finishing the job, and not caring
particularly about the $15,000 that we're owing. Can that be incorporated
into a contract some way that he will relinquish that amount as of a given
time.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Oh sure! We can tap into that retainage if he does not
do the job, or else we have a bond. . .
MR. GIL MUELLER: Was that the case with the Mackle Park expansion?
50
MR. MURDO SMITH: We can do that. I have to get with Mr. Flynn. I
haven't talked to Mr. Flynn on that.
MR. GIL MUELLER: This doesn' t amount to a thousand dollars worth of
effort.
MR. MURDO SMITH: Yes. I'll check on that with Mr. Flynn in the morning
and see what we can do.
MR. GIL MUELLER: I think Lynch should be told, "You either get out here
and you do those things or you're out $15,000.00" .
IV. ADJOURNMENT:
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: OK. Do we have a motion for adjournment?
MR. WILLIAM CLENDENON: I'll make the motion.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Motion made by Mr. Clendenon for adjournment. Is
there a second?
MR. GIL MUELLER: I'll second.
CHAIRMAN KIM KOBZA: Seconded by Mr. Mueller. All in favor. . . We stand
adjourned.
MS:rtd:003859
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