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Minutes 10/23/1991 R Parks & Recreation Advisory Board ( PARAB ) _Minutes October 23 , 1991 MINUTES PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office Naples, Florida Wednesday, October 23, 1991 PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice Chairman Ms. Geneva Till Mr. William Clendenon ABSENT: Ms. Cherryle Thomas I. CALL TO ORDER: The meeting was called to order at 2:00 p.m. II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG: III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Chairman Kim Kobza made some corrections to the minutes. Mr. Gil Mueller: Concerning the discussion regarding the reduction in concessionaire fees at Tigertail Beach. I had made a motion. Prior to that motion I made a comment, and I asked explicitly that the comment be included in the record. However, I noticed on page 17 there's no mention of this. I commented to the effect that because of the original demand by the County Environmental Department to stop raking the beach and the Park and Recreation Department's willingness to do so, we again, and I emphasize again find ourselves in the position of having to consider a reduction in another Concessionaires fees and consequently loosing the Park and Recreation Department and the Tax Payers additional revenue. However, I'm not convinced that attendance is down to that degree. I believe it is a result of seasonal conditions rather than the beach itself, however as a result, I make a motion that we accept Mr. Herbst's request to modify the Food and Beverage Agreement. Chairman Kim Kobza: The chair will entertain a motion for approval with the changes that I describe to the secretary, and also with the exception of item number C that appears on page 17 of the minutes of September 25, 1991. Mr. William Clendenon: I'll make the motion. Mr. Gil Mueller: I'll second it. Chairman Kim Kobza: Motion by Mr. Clendenon. Second by Mr. Mueller. 1 IV. REQUESTS FOR DISCUSSION - SPECIFIC UPDATE ITEMS: Chairman Kim Kobza: The next item of business then will be Requests for Discussion and before I go to Mr. Smith, I would like to ask, do the Board Members have any specific items off of the Report/Update List that you want spend extra time on when we get to that list? Mr. Clendenon? Mr. Mueller? Mr. Gil Mueller: There are some questions I had regarding the Park and Recreation Budget Submission List. Chairman Kim Kobza: I would like to once again talk about Vanderbilt Beach Turnaround and also a status report on our Community Center Construction. VI. REPORTS/UPDATES: A. BONITA BEACH PARK: Mr. Murdo Smith: We've had a request from Dr. Eisenbud who is here, to go over the traffic flows of the joint Lee County/Collier County Park. Mr. George Archibald, who is the Transportation Administrator for Collier County, is here and would like to make a little presentation this afternoon. Chairman Kim Kobza: All right. Dr. Eisenbud. For purposes of the record, would you state your full name and address please? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: I'm a resident of Barefoot Beach, I'm retired. Retired four years ago. Mrs. Eisenbud is here with me. We moved down and have been living on Barefoot Beach since that time. I have some- thing that I've passed out which I hope each of you have a copy of. I think in the interest of time, I was very careful to check on what your customs are, but I wasn' t sure that about 15 minutes would not be overstaying my welcome. So, I think the best thing to do, would be for me to actually read this and I can stop anytime if you like. I want to first thank you Mr. Chairman, and members of the Board for the opportunity to do this. Notice, that I'm not accompanied by a delegation. This is not a protest or a petition as you say, but rather an opportunity to cooperate with the County in an effort to solve a potentially serious problem which is the overburdened intersection of Bonita Beach Road, and Lely Beach Boulevard. Now that in itself is enough of a problem, but more specifically, we should be concerned about the traffic pattern just inside the intersection. Just inside the intersection patterns which are already unsafe and at times chaotic. This is Bonita Beach Road. I'm talking about this spot here. (pointing to the map) . That problem that we're talking about, is not so much, Bonita Beach Road itself, which in itself is a problem and Mr. Archibald's going to deal with that. But, the chaos that exists currently and will be aggravated later on between the Guard house, and the median and the access road which enters there. Now the recent decision by the Board of Commissioners to make the entrance to the Park off Barefoot Beach Entryway, and I think that it was arrived at, as our residents do, and our Association feels that it was arrived at without a careful inspection of the conditions of the site, without 2 consideration of data which is already available at the Department of Transportation. We believe the decision was premature, and essentially was arrived at on a political basis. There's no question in my mind that it was just waived through because of pressures from certain elements in the Community. Our Association is confident that further analysis will demonstrate clearly that retaining the existing location as the entry or exit to the combined park is not desirable. Furthermore we believe there are alternative solutions which will allay the concerns of the residents, and prove as well to be advantageous to the public in general, including the residents of Lee County. So let's talk first about the site itself. What are the sources of traffic that go past that point. First several thousand condominiums on Ft. Myers Beach and Hickory Boulevard and the entire population of the many beach front and backwater communities of Southwest Lee County. These people have no other satisfactory route to or from U.S. 41 other than to go up the Sanibel route. As a result, we believe having monitored this now for years, that most of the traffic that goes past that point makes a right turn up towards Ft. Myers Beach and the backwaters, and their vendors and their deliveries and so forth. You're involved with a community of several thousand individuals, and they don' t have any way to get to U.S. 41 except for that route. Now Barefoot beach itself. This is the only entrance to this residential community. When built out, there will be 686 residential units on Barefoot Beach, and if you use the index that I've been told to use, 2.1 population per residential unit. Barefoot beach will then have a population of approximately 1400 Collier County Residents, and that will happen within a very short time, because construction, unlike many other areas is going rapidly. Now the next item is that this is the only entry point to Barefoot Beach preserve which I said earlier is the Jewel in the Crown of the Parks Department, and we have been monitoring the cars going through there, and this is off season. On Sundays we've had over 200 cars going in and the number of parking spaces anticipated, I was told today is going to approach 200 and they'll all have to go in and out of that entrance. Since there's no charge for parking at the Preserve, and Delnor-Wiggins is charging $3.25 we've already begun to see in the Bonita Banner letters to the Editor about how come they are charging so much at the State park and we know where we can go. So we think it's going to be very heavy utilization during the tourist season. Let me put to rest now, the issue of the Guard House and the Gate open or closed. They way it works today is excellent. The gate is for all practical purposes open. But, everyone stops. Because most of the people don' t know where to go unless they're regular users. There are six different subdivisions in there and they stop at the Guard House, and the Guards are very polite and say "yes?" and they say "We want to go to Southport, etc. " or "We want to go to the park" and they just waive them through and they just click them in. It works just fine. However, there are times when the gate is down. It has to stay down, which is after sundown and so forth. I really think that on anticipating the possibility, there will be another community uprising in Hickory Shores and elsewhere about that gate this season. You must understand that the residents feel entitled to that protection. The property's been sold with that understanding, it's reasonable, it's not 3 holding things up, and in fact they receive important information when they come to the park and also about where to go. Mr. Gil Mueller: Let me ask you a question at this point. You said that the residents of Hickory Shores would object to having a Guard House there? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Based on experience last Winter, there's political issues involved, which we don' t understand, because every community (i.e. Quail Creek) has a Guard House. I think maybe the fuss was the fee. But whatever the fuss was it existed, it was in the papers, and I've said over and over again the residents took a beating for that one and we really had nothing to do with it. So you know about the preserve, and you know that we're going to have a lot of traffic there. Now let me add, something that you may not know, and that is, that at the South end of Lely Beach Boulevard, just short of the entrance to the preserve, a club is being built. It was the Orderly Club, but it's now been changed. It's been sold. It's called the Miramar. The plans that I've been discussing with Dick Klass, who has taken over the management of that, includes about 400 feet of beach front. That is, it's going to be located on about 400 feet of beach front extending through to the back, to the bay. They will have tennis courts, swimming pool, a building with a gymnasium, and refreshment center, a hot and cold cuisine restaurant. Chairman Kim Kobza: South of the condominiums? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: What I'm really trying to bring out for you to recognize, is that there's a lot of activity on Lely Beach Boulevard. Now finally we get to the problem of Bonita Beach itself which currently has at least two entrances. One of them is located at the entry to Barefoot Beach at the point that you see on your map. In other words, people come in off Bonita Beach Road, make a left or a right and then there's a guard house here. To get to the parking for the park, they have to make a right turn. Now here's what happens. Suppose the traffic is leaving the park. They exit the park and then where they exit is at right angles to Lely Beach Boulevard. They come in, it's at right angles to Lely Beach Boulevard. Then they have to cross the traffic that's coming in to Lely Beach Boulevard to get to the other side of the road, to make a left turn, to get to Bonita Beach Road. And of course this has already been a problem, because there isn' t any room for stacking there. Some of the residents, though I haven' t experienced this, claim that there have been near accidents. Another aspect of this, which I must point out to you is that whole entryway is owned by the residents. That's Lely Property, which is being transferred to our Master Association. We paid for the landscaping, we paid for the monuments, we paid for the paving, we maintain the Guardhouse and the Guards. So I think also inherent in this arrangement is very serious liability problems for Collier County in allowing that traffic to enter and come from our property on their way to. . . I don' t know, this is now Lawyer talk, but we feel that's a problem. We ought not to have the problem the uses of County parks, proverbial going on our property. As it is we are required by easement to permit the public to use Lely Beach Boulevard to the Preserve, but 4 that was an easement that was arrived at years ago, even though we maintain that road, and own it. It's permanently the access point to the preserve. So, those are some of the problems. Now let me just give you one moment on the History of this easement. I'm quoting now from the document which is available to you for inspection. It says, "For the term of this Easement shall be perpetual provided none the less that said easement shall terminate at such time as a second roadway, or an additional access other than herein conveyed is provided to above described parking lot adjacent thereto. " At the time this was done, according to Mr. Klass, and John Agnelli, and the Lely Corporation there was an understanding that this was a temporary arrangement and it implies, although it doesn' t say that. The residents have all sold their property with the understanding that was a temporary arrangement. Now moving along to the possibility of solving this. Here's where Mr. Archibald comes in. I think, in fact, it probably would be better for Mr. Archibald to discuss the alternatives to this current situation rather than my doing it. But, I do want to turn to paragraph five and I say, "A Bonus" . Now, in addition to the advantages of relocating that entrance, the winding road which leads to the parking at the beach at the west end is on a piece of property that currently belongs to Lely Development. If you'll turn the page and read the letter that I have from John Agnelli, He says further to our conversation I would verify that it is our intent to cooperate fully with respect to the relocation of the entrance. Then he says, Lely agrees that the roadway, and adjacent property will be deeded to the County if the access currently existing is closed. I took a look at it, and I think that would provide at least another 40 or 50 parking spaces. Now that's a valuable piece of property, and it will be transferred to the Management Association if it doesn' t go to the County. I think that's a bonus. I think that's a really excellent way to deal with that piece of property is to convert it to parking spaces. I think at this point, it probably is in order for Mr. Archibald to talk to you about some technical things, the traffic and the way to deal with it. Thank you very much. Chairman Kim Kobza: Dr. Eisenbud? Can I ask you a couple of questions? I gather from the intent of your presentation that what you're advocating is that the location of the entryway be at a place other than Lely Boulevard and what you're really saying is that there would be some type of mid-point entrance on that curve someplace. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Yes. We've talked about this. In fact, Mr. Archibald came up to look at the place with the residents and has helped us from a technical standpoint. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. But I just wanted to understand that is in fact what you're advocating. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: So, you're advocating extension of that parking Or lot to the East, and you're expanding it that way? 5 Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: Have you had any independent traffic engineering done? Or, has to your knowledge, John Agnelli or any of those people? <> Dr. Leon Eisenbud: John Agnelli asked Coastal to look at it. All they did was come up with alternatives. Chairman Kim Kobza: Mr. Archibald? Mr. Archibald: Thank you. Dr. Eisenbud asked me to attend this meeting to not only bring him up to date, but also to bring this Board up to date on the alternatives and the status of the discussion between Lee and Collier County from a traffic standpoint. You probably are more knowledgeable about some of the background than I am, but in essence, the problem we have is one that the residents within Lely Barefoot Beach object to having access to public parking through their entryway. The first thing that I did, was meet with the Association. Dr. Eisenbud had invited me, and I met with the Association. But, I did bring a little bit of a traffic report with me. Because, I'm probably the guilty party, causing the problem to begin with. I say that, because my recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners and to this Board for that matter is that we always keep the easement Collier County has that will inter- connect with Lee County. Always keep in mind, that we need to be assured that the access to that parking lot is through a signalized intersection. That was my premise all along, and that was one reason why I had recommended that the connection between Lely Barefoot Beach entrance road and the parking area that Lely built for the County, remain in place. Because as we know, in season, you can not make a west bound left turn on Bonita Beach Road. Even after four (4) laving, it may be very very difficult to be able to use either the Lee County or the Collier County parking area without that key ingredient. That is a signalized intersection of some kind. So, what we did after the meeting was to go ahead and take a look at signalized intersection locations. I'm going to give you all another map. Hopefully it won' t be too confusing, but another map that would show Bonita Beach Road, the entrance to the Lely Barefoot Beach, and then in red, I've attempted to outline three possible intersections. The first one that we've always concentrated on, and I've compared notes with my counterparts in Lee County, has been to recognize that if we signalize the Lely Barefoot Beach Intersection and the Condominiums on the north side of Bonita Beach Road as we connect their driveway at that location then we'll have a four way intersection. We can put up a traffic signal. It'll serve everybody, and if the Beach Parking is tied into it, then people coming and going from the Beach parking area can do just that. I was told a story, and I believe it very very much. It's that during season, the people that live in the Condominiums on the North side of Bonita Beach Road directly opposite the park, leave their condominium, get into their automobile, drive down to Bonita Beach Road, and they wait for a break in the traffic to make a left turn. There's no such thing as a break in the traffic. In fifteen or twenty minutes they 6 back up, and they go back to their Condominium, because there's no way they can get out onto Bonita Beach Road. That's been my concern, and that's why I've somewhat lobbied counter to the Lely Barefoot beach folks, that we need to keep the parking lot interconnected with Lely Barefoot Beach. At the meeting, some of the representatives of the Civic Association, came in with a very good recommendation to solve the problem. They asked us to go ahead and look into it. That is that they would forgo a signal at their entryway, and if the County could take the money from the Developer, and move the signal, go ahead and create another four way intersection just to the west. So the sketch that I've left with you is one that shows not only the intersection at Lely Barefoot Beach, but also the possibility of another location either immediately to the West, or one that lines up with the existing driveway to the north which is right here. So, what we're going back and looking at, is restricting access to Lely Barefoot beach for essentially only traffic coming from the East to the West which would be consistent with Collier County needs. So people coming from the east getting access to either the Preserve or the Parking area have an intersection to turn at, storing lanes and all that. Further to the east, we could develop an intersection here where we would have a driveway serving the Condominiums to the north, and a driveway serving the parking area to the south. Then, we would simply take the money for the signal, for Lely Barefoot Beach and relocat it to this point right here as an alternative. We're looking at that alternative to solve two problems; solve the concerns that the residents have, and also to meet a commitment; that the residents said that they would be willing to live under the four lane condition. The conditions were the median opening only provided for Westbound left turns and it prohibited North bound left turns which means everybody living in the Lely Barefoot Community can go to the east and they can come from the East to the West. But, they can' t go back to the west or the North without going to the East. Now if I haven' t confused anyone. . . But in essence, they've agreed to some access constraints which will make a good access to their community and also to the preserve. At the same point in time, if we are able to move the signalized intersection to the West a little bit, then we would still serve the very very important concern of having the Lee County and the Collier County Beach Parking area controlled through a signalized intersection where people can come and go. Ms. Geneva Till: I have a question. You said "if we can move that signal" . Now what would preclude moving that? I mean, what are the conditions there? Mr. Archibald: We've met with Lee County last week to make sure that both Counties are looking at some of the same criteria. Typically, from a transportation standpoint, what we look at is the appropriate site conditions, the appropriate distance, and storage lanes that are required for turning movements, we look at the decision time for certain traffic movements. Our biggest concern, is that we've got a big sweeping curve here, which people that are coming Southbound lickety- split, and all of a sudden, we put up a signal there. We need to make sure that there's 7 plenty of advance warning so people can get prepared to stop. So, we're looking at the design here or that other location which would be right over to the east of that. So we're looking at two different locations to make sure we can come in with a safe intersection. If we can, then that may be the solution to not only the problem that's been presented to the Lely Barefoot Beach residents, but also it would provide for good access to the parking area because we know that we're going to be constrained at this location up in Lee County. So, we're not going to have much of an intersection here (pointing to map) , because of some right-of-way constraints. So we need to have, again, a signalized intersection, and this may be the location. So that's what we're looking into. All I'm doing today, is giving you a little bit of a run-down on what the staff is looking at. There's not enough information for the staff or for the Parks Board to make a recommendation at this point in time. Mr. Gil Mueller: Mr. Archibald, I can appreciate Dr. Eisenbud's concern as far as the congestion at this intersection. Not only would it be difficult for the residents of Lely Barefoot Beach or the general public, it would be a burden for the guard. No question about it. But, does your drawing reflect the drawing that we saw here a few months ago that Coastal Engineering gave us? Maybe this is an identical drawing, I don' t know. Chairman Kim Kobza: That's the Site Plan. Mr. Archibald: Mr. Smith loaned that. So it must be the same one. Mr. Gil Mueller: Then this drawing is the same plan that the County Commissioners approved in conjunction with the Lee County Commissioners here a while back, three or four weeks ago? Mr. Archibald: The parking plan is. The Board had indicated at that time, this access to Lely Barefoot Beach Boulevard be maintained until such time as the Study Phase be completed. Mr. Gil Mueller: The Study Phase, in order to alleviate this congestion, and put in another intersection such as you've outlined here? Mr. Archibald: Yes. Mr. Gil Mueller: I thought that the plan that Coastal Engineering submitted to the BCC was pretty well solidified. I didn' t realize the door was still being opened as far as establishing an intersection here was concerned. Mr. Archibald: Their plan is solidified from the standpoint of the parking area and the improvements. The item that's been up in the air and remains up throughout, is. . . Where do we interconnect the two? How do we interconnect it to not only under the two lane conditions, but also under the four lane conditions. That's what we are going to be looking at. Also, as a result of analyzing that with the Lee County 8 Transportation people, we'll coordinate that with both Counties. We've also done some traffic projections and some traffic analysis up there and I think we all need to know that I don' t foresee the access to the parking area as being a hazard. There's going to be operational problems, and I that's what Dr. Eisenbud is outlining. I don' t foresee that as being an overwhelming problem because the traffic volumes that are generated within the Lely Barefoot Beach Development are going to be so large compared to the traffic volumes generated by the parking area, that this will be relatively a small volume. But it's still a volume that the Gate Guard has to deal with. Mr. Gil Mueller: Do you feel that eventually the access to the so-called Lee Collier Parking arrangement and access to the Lely Barefoot through the Lely residential area will have to be separate? It's two separate entrances, they can't be as they are now, in conjunction with one another. Mr. Archibald: I have no problem with what's there right now. Now the question is, there's a group out there, the Lely Barefoot Homeowners that do object to it. They have the problem with it, and they have a traffic concern, and there's a couple of solutions to that. Mr. Gil Mueller: But, if it's connected? If this Lee/Collier parking thing is connected with the Lely Barefoot entrance as it exists now, that congestion will continue, will it not? Mr. Archibald: Oh yes! Mr. Gil Mueller: Isn' t that what we're trying to eliminate? Mr. Archibald: I think the proposal that we've got here will sever those two connections and as a result will improve conditions. Mr. Gil Mueller: Well that's what I asked before. Will they be separate access points? Mr. Archibald: Yes. What you'll end up with, will be two intersections. There'll be an intersection with Lely Barefoot Beach that will not have a signal, and then you'll have an intersection immediately to the West which will have a signal. What we're proposing, and we haven' t talked with the Lely people about it to any great degree, but we would be expecting the dollar commitments that Lely has to signalize their intersection. That those dollar commitments be transferred, and those funds be used to install the signal that will serve the parking area. Chairman Kim Kobza: Could I ask some questions? What is the ADT on Bonita Beach Road? ADT is Average Daily Traffic. Mr. Archibald: Right now, under the two lane condition, it's about 18,500 cars. We projected that out to the year 2000, and you're looking at the 28 to 29 thousand cars on Bonita Beach Road. So, that's err✓ a straight line growth rate of 5%. It may be a little high, because 9 that area is going to have to build out. During the peak season of the year, during the season where all the tourists are down, I think we all know that road is going to need four laning and that design is under way right now. Chairman Kim Kobza: What is the trip generation potential of the multi-family and the. . . Well, of the residential area of the Preserve areas of Barefoot Beach? Do we have an idea of what that is? Mr. Archibald: Yes. I've got a projection of all of that by different entities of use. Both the 1990 figures and our projections build that on the year 2000. What we're looking at in terms of traffic going in and out of there right now, is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,000 trips from the residential units, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 trips from the Beach Parking and the Beach Preserve. Now as the residential area builds out, my figures reflect about 700 units to build out, and Dr. Eisenbud has corrected me to indicate that there's going to be only about 686 instead of 700. We're in the same ball- park, but in addition to that, there may be a Club/Restaurant facility that we'd have there. So, I think we're in the ballpark, but my numbers may be a little low. They may be a little bit high on build out, but at build out, the residential units are going to increase the traffic generation from about 2,000 to over 4,000 vehicles per day coming and going. The Preserve, we expect would produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 trips at the peak. The interconnection with this would produce probably another 600 trips. So, the beach parking and the beach preserve could generate over 1,000 trips. That's what the Gate Guard at the Lely Barefoot Beach Boulevard entrance would have to deal with. That's part of the trips that we would be relocating to another intersection. Chairman Kim Kobza: How much latitude do you have in moving the existing entrance to the condominium entrance on the North side? Do you have any latitude on where that goes? Mr. Archibald: Yes. We've got in essence, three locations that it could be placed. Chairman Kim Kobza: It could be placed in any of these three? Mr. Archibald: Yes. The reason we picked those locations, is that they're between buildings, and they line up with the parking thoroughfare that's there right now. Chairman Kim Kobza: The thing that I'd be worried about with going to entrance. . . Well, I could ask you one other question. What is the distance between Lely Drive, and these other two possible relocations of the signalized intersections? Mr. Archibald: Probably in the neighborhood of three to five hundred feet. Chairman Kim Kobza: If you were to move the intersection, how would you accommodate people that are coming from the East to make a turn 10 into Barefoot Beach Preserve, and Lely? Would you have a stacking lane there? So, they would be. . . I guess the answer to that would be, they've got a free shot when the signal is right. Although, the problem is to the extent that you have people up on the Bonita Beach Condominiums coming out. Then, they have the right of way before your people turning in from the east. Right? Mr. Archibald: What you're going to have, is typically the people turning at Lely Barefoot Beach Boulevard without a traffic signal, they're going have a certain number of seconds to execute their west-bound left turn before the traffic from either the park or the Condominiums to the north, before those movements catch up to them. Chairman Kim Kobza: Would you have a turnaround for them, where they could make a right hand turn onto Bonita Beach Road? The bridge is not far down. Isn' t that the problem? Mr. Archibald: Well, yes and no. When we design the four lanes we would expect that there would be a U-turn provision at the first median opening. But we may not have a median opening between their entrance, and the bridge itself. There may be a median opening for west bound movements, but not necessarily for U-turns. So I think we would have to go down to the second location probably before they would have an opportunity to make a U-turn. Mr. Gil Mueller: Mr. Chairman, may I make a suggestion? Suggestion, then I have a question. Mr. Archibald is a traffic expert, and I don' t think this Board is qualified to discuss or certainly not to make a recommendation as to how, who should turn left and right, and who can' t turn right, and who can go forward. That's his expertise, and I'm sure he'll figure it out very nicely. We have a pretty good Agenda here. But, the one thing that bothers me, Coastal Engineering presented this to the Board of County Commissioners, and they agreed to do it. Didn' t they take into consideration the potential congestion that was going to exist as far as the entrance in to this thing? Wasn' t that pre- determined and established at the time they went into this Agreement with Lee County? Mr. Archibald: Yes. That was discussed. That was included in the Agreement with a provision that would allow the Collier County to control that. Keep in mind, one of the comments I made early on, is that the traffic being generated by the parking area here is relatively small. My recommendation to the Board was one that's going create what we call side street friction. But, you're going to have such a higher volume of traffic coming and going from the residential area, that this isn' t necessarily going to create a most overwhelming problem that gate guard will have to deal with. By coming up with a solution we've talking about, it may make their job a little easier and it may reduce some of the congestion at that intersection. But as Dr. Eisenbud outlined, even after we've relocate this, the residents up there are going to continue to have a problem with the Guard Gate. Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, it just appears to me that there wasn' t a great deal of consideration given to this traffic problem, the entrance 11 situation to the parking lot areas. A great deal of consideration wasn' t given to this when they entered into this Agreement with Lee County. I would think that it would have been established and an integral part of this entire agreement to determine what that was going to be long before now. Because they certainly knew that there'd be a problem at the Lely Barefoot entrance. That's obvious. Mr. Archibald: We knew we would have a problem in there. As a result there was a special clause that was put into the Lee County Agreement to allow Collier County the ability to control that. But, I don' t think, and the Board I think has discussed this very briefly, is that they realize there's going to be a solution. That solution will probably come about the time it's four laned. So, until that Traffic Study has been done, I think the Board indicated that the Agreement and the provisions that were outlined when the Board took action were consistent, and would satisfy our immediate needs. I think everyone knew that when we designed four lanes we've got to solve that problem. Mr. Gil Mueller: Is that pretty much what you agree with, Dr. Eisenbud? Is that how you see it? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Not entirely. We became involved in this discussion when the Commission acted approximately three or four weeks ago and stated quite positively in fact there was some discussion about it, and there was a representative from another Civic Association that made a presentation about it. The Commission said, "Yes. We're going to retain that entrance from Lely Beach Boulevard" . So we said, "Wait a minute! We came into this whole thing with the understanding that it's temporary" and that's when we got involved. I said in my statement, that I don' t think anybody ever looked at the kind of things that Mr. Archibald is looking at. Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, that's exactly my question. That's what I'm trying to establish. It looks to me like they completely blew it! Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Yes. It was astonishing to me how quickly that went through, without any consideration of the impact it would have on the residents of Barefoot Beach. But, you've got the residents of the condominiums on the other side, and you've got the people going into the Preserve. I wonder if I would take one moment to tell you how it goes. That will just illustrate the kind of problems we have in there. First of all, these people should know that the Guard does not work for the County. The Guard is paid by us. The Guard has no responsibility to direct traffic there. I mean, why should he do that? His job is to raise and lower the gate when somebody approaches the Community and wants to come in, or to make the telephone call. Chairman Kim Kobza: Well, wait a second Dr. Eisenbud. Isn' t that. . . You know, I have an appreciation for that, but that in and of itself is a fairly in depth discussion and you know, we spent a lot of time, and I did, on a Special Task Force, Gil was there too, you know, addressing those issues as it relates to the Guard, as it relates to permits, as it relates to location, Guard Shack, the legal rights of all the parties, and everything else. So, you know, I want to be a little 12 careful in our discussion of what those respective rights are because I think that's a fairly complex set of issues in and of itself. Are there any other questions of Dr. Eisenbud? Mr. William Clendenon: I have a one question. You mentioned that by relocating this entryway into the parking lot, that you would have room for, I believe 40 additional parking spots? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Well, I walked over there and looked at it. That's a long winding road, and on either side, I think you could have at least twenty on each side. Mr. William Clendenon: Has there been any discussion with Lely about building this? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Well, once the property is deeded to the County, it would be taken care of during the construction of the entire combined park. That's my assumption. Chairman Kim Kobza: Are there any other questions. (no response) OK. Doctor Eisenbud, thank you very much for appearing. Chairman Kim Kobza: Are there any additional questions of Mr. Archibald? Mr. Archibald: Thank you for your time. Chairman Kim Kobza: Thank you very much. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Mr. Kobza, if you'll forgive me. On the issue of the Guard function, I'm going to have our attorney check that out. I mean, I don' t understand what you said and how you can possibly make the Guard in any way responsible for County traffic. So, I'll ask our attorney to check that. Chairman Kim Kobza: Well, Doctor Eisenbud, I appreciate the fact that you pay for the Guard that's there. But, I think the issue is how the Guard is utilized, and that is also the access point to the County Beach Preserve, and that has been an issue of a great debate as you know and what that Guard's rights are, in terms of allowing people in and out of that access point. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: That's legalities for me. I have to turn that over to our Attorney. Chairman Kobza: Sure. Thank you Mr. Archibald, this is a public hearing. Would anyone else want to speak on this issue at all? If there is no additional discussion then, as I understand it, there's no PARAB action required. Mr. Murdo Smith: No. It was just an update. Chairman Kim Kobza: I'd like to thank everybody for their presentations. 13 V. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS: A. BAREFOOT BEACH PRESERVE BATH HOUSE BUILDING BID: Chairman Kim Kobza: Next item of business, the Barefoot Beach Bath House Building Bid. Mr. Murdo Smith: This is a bid that was placed out for the Bath House Facility at the Barefoot Beach Preserve. The Bid was advertised on September 20, 1991. The Pre-Bid conference was held on September 26, 1991. The Bid was opened on October 9, 1991 . Six Bids were received. I believe that you have a tabulation sheet of all the Bids that were received. The lowest bidder or lowest responsive bidder is Vanderbilt Bay Construction Inc. Their total cost for the project was approximately $184,600. Ladd Ryziw, who is the Engineer Project Mgr. , Micah Massaquoi, who is the Senior Engineer, and I are going over these bids to make sure they're all accurate. and we have a couple of questions on the Vanderbilt Bay Construction Bid that they have submitted. However, they feel that the bids will be fairly well substantiated and will be correct. So, what we're going to recommend is that when staff has reviewed the Low Bidders Options, that this Board direct us to take the Low Bidder and proceed to go to the BCC with it. If there are any questions, I'll be glad to answer them. I do have a plan of the Bath House if anyone would like to see it. Chairman Kim Kobza: In the Summer we were talking about the alternatives at the Barefoot Beach Preserve, what we were going to do, or not do, and this was one of the issues that was at least partially discussed in the Task Force. So, now are we endorsing the construction of the Bath House by approving this bid? Mr. Murdo Smith: The Transportation Department and our Department are looking at the bids to see that it is correct. Because his bid is substantially lower than everyone else's. Ms. Geneva Till: Well, would you get back to us again. Mr. Murdo Smith: We could come back to you, if you wished at the Special Meeting on the 30th. Mr. Dave Ward: For the record, my name is Dave Ward. I'm Vice President of CABB (Citizen's Association of Bonita Beach) We've been interested in Parks and Collier County for a long time. The question I have is very simple. You have a parking lot in there, or several of them, where you pull off on the right hand side of the road, and then you have stretches on the left hand side or the east side where there's parallel parking to the road. Down in there, just before you get to the end though, is that big dune and the boardwalk that comes up to the dune. As I was looking at your original plan to this, it showed a parking lot in there where that dune is. It showed three parking lots and you actually only have two. Then it showed a parking lot that was planned on, and it was the state land. What's holding the parking lot up? Mr. Murdo Smith: Right now Mr. Ward, we have that parking lot 14 scheduled for construction this year. Mr. Dave Ward: Then all that fill there is going to be used. Mr. Murdo Smith: For some parking, yes sir, they're going to move it around so they could get around the dune. But, that parking lot is in the plans for this coming year. Mr. Dave Ward: How many cars will be in the parking lot? Mr. Murdo Smith: Approximately 44. That would be the third parking lot. What we did, is we broke it down into Phases. The first two parking lots was basically the first phase, the bath house was the second, and the additional parking lot would be like the third phase. Chairman Kim Kobza: Mr. Ward, do you support the construction of the Bath House that we were just discussing? Mr. Dave Ward: Certainly! Beautiful! I've seen the plans before, and I thought they were very similar to the ones that's going up in Lee County. I was kind of surprised to see a refreshment stand up there. Of course, you're in an isolated area, and I suppose you do need it. A lot of people bring their own stuff to the beach though. Chairman Kim Kobza: Mr. Ward thank you very much for appearing and I always appreciate when you and Mrs. Ward and your group come down and participate, because it helps us. It gives us more information to know what's going on there, and to make a decision. So, we appreciate it. B. USER FEES/BEACH PARKING: Mr. Murdo Smith: At the last meeting, you had requested that I contact the County Manager by either memo or directly and ask him for direction that this Board should take regarding beach parking issues. I did talk to the County Manager last week and his recommendation was that he would like to check to see that the full Commission voted on having you as a Task Force to review the Beach Parking issue, prior to you going ahead and starting. Chairman Kim Kobza: Historically there have been maybe three camps of thought, if you will on user fees at the beach parks. (1) One has been that we charge no fees. That the beach should be free, and for the benefit of everybody, with free and open access to it. Like our community parks. We have open access to those. So that's been one line of thought. (2) The second line of thought has been we should charge admission fees, which are equal to our cost of operations of the beach facility. In other words, we take that cost, and we should at least break even. The operations of the park should not cost us more that what we raise in revenue at park facilities. I think historically, that's what we've at least tried to do from a philosophical basis, not that we cheat, but that's what we try to do. OK. So that's the second line of thought. (3) The third alternative which I think the Productivity Report leans toward a little bit, is that you should charge what the market 15 will bear for those facilities. In other words that the beach park facilities be a money maker to the extent that they can subsidize other park operations. The example of the State park charging $3.50 and us charging $1 .00 a car is that example to the extreme. So, the Productivity Report people would probably say, you go to the $3.50 number and be competitive with the state park. So, I don' t say that's a perfect analysis, but I think a correct characterization. How do the Board members feel about those different philosophies? Mr. William Clendenon: Well, my first thoughts there, is there's no such thing as a free ride. It would be ideal, if everybody could go without paying a nickel, but let's be practical. There are expenses involved. My initial inclination after reading all of this, is to go the Parking Meter route. You have a tremendous investment in buying these meters and installing them. but, on the other side of the coin, you don' t have to pay man power to collect the fee. Do we have any feel for how much Parking meters cost? Mr. Murdo Smith: They are approximately $200.00 a piece. Mr. Gil Mueller updated Mr. William Clendenon on PARAB's action of approximately a year ago, of voting for Toll Booths and against parking meters and the reasons behind that decision. After this brief update, Mr. Clendendon changed his viewpoint. Mr. Gil Mueller: The main thing that concerns me is the lack of consistency throughout the park program. Mr. William Clendenon: Agreed that there should be consistency in fees. At one of the Budget Meetings the Commission decided to leave things the way they are for right now, and to continue to charge a dollar. Ms. Geneva Till: Number one, I think for having no fees, that's just not feasible. Since being on this Board, I've realized how expensive it is, and it's a luxury that we all love and there's no free ride. But, I don' t think it ought to be a money maker either. I like the second part. If you use the park you pay for it. Because there are people that don' t go to the beach! I love to go to the beach, and I don' t mind paying. Whatever it is, I want to go to the beach! But there are people that if it has to paid for, I don' t think it should be • in the form of taxation on everybody. It should be, if you use it, you're willing to pay for it. So, I would definitely go with number two. And to make it the same all over. Chairman Kim Kobza: I'm very much of a kindred soul with Mrs. Till and I think the issue is going to be that the Productivity set cost of operation above where we previously had understood the cost of operation to be. So, it all depends on what you throw into that equation. So, what I think it will come down to, is what do we view as being within the cost of operation, and do we have to raise fees to 16 support that cost of operation. If we accept the Productivity Committee's report/conclusion, we probably have to add $2.00 per car fee to meet what they've defined as the cost of operation. So, that's where I wanted to start that discussion a little bit. I thing something we're going to need from you, Murdo, do you agree with the Productivity Committee on cost of operation? What are the elements of the Cost of operation? Do we through the Beach Supervisors into that equation? We had that discussion before. Are they throwing the Park Rangers in? We need to understand those things to be able to look at this intelligently. Mr. Murdo Smith: The only place we would not be able to give you an actual count would be Barefoot Beach and possibly Vanderbilt may be a little bit off, because what we do is we count the cars and the people in the cars when they come in to the parking lots. However, at Vanderbilt you have an access area where you can get on the beach without going to the parking lot. But at Clam Pass and Tigertail we can give you a fairly close estimate of how many people we have there. Chairman Kim Kobza: Well, you'll try to bring this back before us as soon as possible? Mr. Murdo Smith: As soon as I get an answer, I will let you know. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. VI. REPORTS/UPDATES: A. BONITA BEACH PARK: (previously discussed) B. RECYCLING: Mr. Murdo Smith: Recycling. We should probably take that off, because that's an on-going process now. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. C. TIGERTAIL VEGETATION: Mr. Murdo Smith: Tigertail Vegetation. I've talked to Jerry Neal from the Office of Capital Projects this week, and I was expecting to be doing some weed removal at Tigertail this week or next week. However, the State still has to give us the OK to proceed. We're in the process of doing some work at Rookery Bay. Once the state feels that we have done enough to satisfy them, then we can go ahead and remove the vegetation at Tigertail. Mr. Gil Mueller: Murdo, as you probably know, the big issue on Marco Island now is the controversy of changing of the regulations at the Residents Beach. The second issue at this time is the condition of Tigertail Beach. Not only the quality of the water, but the continued 17 existence of that vegetation. Quite frankly it's gotten to be a laughing matter, it really has. I'm reflecting what I hear. People have lost confidence in the promises that this will be taken care of, and this is going to be cleared up. Because this has been going on now for years. There's been continued promises and other than some initial removal the beach still really doesn' t look that good. People just don' t believe what is being promised them anymore, and I can understand that. I just wonder whether the liaison between the County and the DER, what exactly are they doing? Are they pushing these people? Why can' t we expedite this? This has been going on for years and has gotten to be ridiculous. Mr. Murdo Smith: One of the conditions in the permit that was received from the DER was to do the mitigation at Rookery Bay first and then they will give us permission to remove the vegetation. It's been raining quite a bit down on Marco at Rookery Bay, and I guess the area where they were mitigating had some problems with the muck, and so vehicles couldn' t get in. Mr. Gil Mueller: So, what you're saying is that we continue to be at the mercy of the DER and when they get around to doing this in their good slow time, why then we have to coordinate our efforts. That's really what it boils down to, isn' t it? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Once they give us the OK to go ahead, we will do it as soon as we can. r D. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING: Mr. Murdo Smith: We're in the process of getting some estimates from Engineers to see how much it would cost to do some designs for additional parking. Once we get those designs, we'll get with Real Property to see if the State will give us the OK to acquire some additional land for parking. We're looking at possibly going to the south side of the ramp and adding twenty cars for parking down there. Mr. Gil Mueller: Have we approached the State on that? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. We've written some letters to the State and the State seems to be in agreement with our request. It's just that we've got to get some plans done. Mr. Gil Mueller: No possibility of that materializing for this coming season I bet? Mr. Murdo Smith: No sir. The big thing we'll have there is the permitting. Mr. Gil Mueller: I was thinking of Caxambas Boat Ramp down there, Murdo. This question occurred to me the other day. How do we know, for example, that the concessionaire at Caxambas is giving us a fair shake. How do we know that we are getting "X" percentage of his gross. I know we get a flat fee. And that applies to any of our concessionaires. 18 Mr. Murdo Smith: We get daily cash register receipts which are audited on a monthly basis. They are given to Finance, Finance reviews them, and then they audit them every once in a while. E. POOLS: Mr. Murdo Smith: We're in the process of starting up the design of the pool for this facility. Like I've said in the past, it's reduced from an Olympic Pool to what they call a competitive type pool now, which will be a 25 meter by 25 yard. We're looking at putting in a slide, and possibly a zero depth area so that people can walk into the pool. So it'll be like a recreational, competitive type pool for both people. F. VANDERBILT BEACH ACCESSES & PARKING: No discussion. G. COMMUNITY CENTERS: Mr. Murdo Smith: They're moving right along. The substantial completion dates are the middle of November. They will probably not be at final completion until mid-December. H. FRANK E. MACKLE JR. PARK BUILDING EXPANSION: Chairman Kim Kobza: Is that completed yet? Mr. Murdo Smith: Not the final punch list. We have to have a final meeting down there. There's 10 or so items to be completed. Mr. Gil Mueller: Who is the liaison for the County that deals with the Contractor? Is that Bill Flynn? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Mr. Gil Mueller: He works with Heyward Boyce? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Mr. Gil Mueller: Because there a number of things down there that have not been completed. They have been staying that way for months, and nothing's been done about it. Little things. It would take someone a couple hours to complete them. In other words, the thing is 98.5% done. I just don' t know why the Contractor doesn' t send somebody down there. Bill Flynn is the guy that would be responsible for that? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Bill Flynn is the one that the County has overseeing the project for our Department. Mr. Gil Mueller: OK. I'll have to do something about that, because that's ridiculous. The panels are lopsided, the baseboard on two sides and then on one side they ran a two by six. I don' t know why in the world they ever did anything like that. The tile is cracked. OK. 19 I. CONKLIN POINT BOAT RAMP: Mr. Murdo Smith: I don' t have any updates from the last time. J. LISTING OF DONATED PROPERTY: Chairman Kim Kobza: Have we received anything. Mr. Murdo Smith: Nothing on that yet. K. IMMOKALEE CHILD CARE CENTER: Mr. Murdo Smith: . . .we haven' t heard anything on Immokalee Child Care. L. CLAM PASS PARK: (no discussion) VII. NEW BUSINESS: A. PARKS & RECREATION BUDGET SUBMISSION: Mr. Gil Mueller: I noticed here, there was $10,000.00 for landscaping at Tommie Barfield. Where are they going to put landscaping there? Mr. Murdo Smith: We're trying to landscape some around the tennis courts and down along the front of the road. Mr. Gary Franco: Correct. The landscaping also includes sodding. Mr. Gil Mueller: Isn' t that School property? Mr. Murdo Smith: It is School property, yes. But, we use it. We have the tennis courts and the ballfield and we do have a responsibility to keep it looking nice. Mr. Gil Mueller: The other item is Tennis & Basketball Improvements under Racquet Club, there's $69,000.00 Now I'm not under the impression that we have that much money. Do we? Mr. Murdo Smith: No sir. The tennis and basketball court improvements - there's some other funds for other courts throughout the County that need to be re-surfaced also (i.e. Coconut Circle, Poinciana) . Mr. Gil Mueller: It includes other facilities too. I see. OK. At Frank Mackle Community Park I noticed there was a dividing wall for the new addition for $25,000. What's happened on that? Mr. Murdo Smith: We did receive a cost estimate from the Contractor. Bill Flynn is checking it out to make sure that it will be sufficiently supported down there by the beam that they were planning on installing. Mr. Gil Mueller: But, we're going to do it though? 20 Mr. Murdo Smith: The direction that I was given, was that when we get the price, and it's all figured out, go back to the Board and they will let me know if I can have the money for it or not. B. VANDERBILT BEACH TURNAROUND: Chairman Kim Kobza: Just so the Board's aware. I sent a letter to the Manager and each of the Commissioners, asking them to expedite the Vanderbilt Beach Turnaround improvement. Commissioner Volpe has sent a memorandum to the same effect to the County Manager's office, and you should receive a copy of that hopefully together with the recommendation that we made. That will help to move along that turnaround restoration. Mr. Murdo Smith: I'm in the process right now of getting a legal opinion from the County Attorney to see if we can use the Impact Fees to do that project. Once I get the opinion we will proceed with it. C. EXPIRATION OF 3 PARAB MEMBERS TERMS: Mr. Murdo Smith: Three PARAB Member tenures are expiring at the end of this year. I believe that you have received a letter from Sue Filson as to whether you would wish to reapply and I just wanted to make sure that you knew when the deadline was. I believe it's by November first. D. SPECIAL MEETING SCHEDULED ON NOVEMBER 30, 1991: Mr. Murdo Smith: I would just like to remind you of the meeting next week. That's on the Barefoot Beach Management Plan. E. REGISTRY'S PETITION LAST MONTH: Mr. Gil Mueller: Murdo, what exactly is the situation as far as that Golden Gate Community Center is concerned? What exactly is this situation as far as the Parks and Recreation Department's involvement in that? Is it an integral of your whole operation, or some other stipulations that exempts it from certain conditions? Mr. Murdo Smith: They're under our Department. However, they are under a separate taxing District which basically pays for all the operations at that center. It is a County facility. The BCC run it. So, they are theoretically under our jurisdiction. They have their own Advisory Board that deals with all their operations. VIII. ADJOURNMENT: Ms. Geneva Till motioned for adjournment. Mr. William Clendenon seconded the motion. With no further discussion the motion passed with a 4-0 vote. Meeting was adjourned. MS:rtd:003824 21 4 MINUTES (long version) PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office Naples, Florida Wednesday, October 23, 1991 PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice Chairman Ms. Geneva Till Mr. William Clendenon ABSENT: Ms. Cherryle Thomas I. CALL TO ORDER: The meeting was called to order at 2:00 p.m. II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG: III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. The first item of business is the approval of the Minutes of the September 25, 1991 meeting. I have just a few comments, which were principally typographical comments that I want to go over before approval. Ramona, do you have a copy of those Minutes? Ramona Daugs: Yes Murdo Smith: I do. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. In the heading in the month on page one there's a mis-spelling there. Murdo Smith: Oh, OK Chariman Kobza: Page four, third paragraph from the bottom where it says, "Mr. Popper" , and his comments, that should read " . . .all we are talking about is the addition of a deck. " Are you with me on that? Murdo Smith: Um-Hum Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. On page nine, in about the middle of the page, my comment there where it begins, "Would you be open to limitation of the number of events per week. . . " and it says, " . . .you said probably not more than two per season. " What that should say is, two per week during season. OK. Page 10. Are you still with me? Murdo Smith: Um-Hum 1 Chairman Kim Kobza: Page ten, second paragraph from the bottom. OK. And, "X munber of dollars for the use of the facility, so much per person. " OK. Restrict the wait. OK. Page twelve, in about the middle of the page, the comment by Mrs. Till saying "I feel this is well thought out" I think that's saposed to be. OK. Then at the bottom of that same page, the last sentence, it says "Anther thing, what would keep other condo, hotels, etc. from doing this same. . . " thing I think is that word " . . .along with the entire stretch of beach. . . " . OK. Those were my only comments with respect to the minutes. Were there other questions or comments from the board members? Mr. Gil Mueller: Concerning the discussion regarding the reduction in concessionaire fees at Tigertail Beach. I had made a motion. Prior to that motion I made a comment, and I asked explicitly that the comment be included in the record. However, I noticed on page 17 there's no mention of this. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. What would that be? What whas the. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: Page 17 about two thirds of the way down. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Mr. Gil Mueller: It simply says, "A discussion was held regarding. . . " There was no mention of that comment at all. Chairman Kim Kobza: What was the comment that should have been included? Mr. Gil Mueller: Well I wrote the comment out. I have it here verbatum if you'd like me to read it. It's a little lengthy, but I wanted explicitely to have that comment go into the record. Chairman Kim Kobza: Could be do this? Could you describe what it relates to for us? Because Ramona can pick it up off the tape. Mr. Gil Mueller: Prior to my making the motion that the board agreed to the reduction in concessionaires fees. I said I wanted to make a comment, and I wanted the comment either to be seperate or to be included as part of the motion. I wanted it recorded, and there was nothing in the minutes about it. Chairman Kim Kobza: What is the comment? Mr. Gil Mueller: Well as I said a moment ago, I reread the comment. Chairman Kim Kobza: Sure! Go ahead! Mr. Gil Mueller: Let's see here. Where does it begin? I commented to the effect that because of the original demand by the County Environmental Department to stop raking the beach and the Park and Recreation Department's willingness to do so, we again, and I emphasize again find ourselves in the position of having to consider a reduction 2 in anothere concessionaires fees and consequently loosing the Park and Recreation Department and the Tax Payers additional revenue. However, I'm not convinced that attendance is down to that degree. I believe it is a result of seasonal conditions rather than the beach itself, however as a result, I make a motion that we accept Mr. Herbst's request to modify the Food and Beverage Agreement. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Could we do this? Could we except out that item with a motion for approval? In other words, let's have Ramona go back to the tape, and type that comment. Mr. Gil Mueller: OK Chairman Kim Kobza: OK, and then we'll review that for approval submitted with the minutes of our next meeting. Mr. Gil Mueller: OK. Fine! Chairman Kim Kobza: How does that sound? Mr. Gil Mueller: Fine! Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. So having said that, the chair will entertain a motion for approval with the changes that I describe to the secretary, Ramona, and also with the exception of item number C that appears on page 17 of the minutes of September 25, 1991. I C Mr. William Clendenon: I'll make the motion. Mr. Gil Mueller: I'll second it. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Motion by Mr. Clendenon. Second by Mr. Mueller. Any discussion? (no response) There being no discussion, all in favor signify by saying I. . . and that motion passes unanimously. OK. IV. REQUESTS FOR DISCUSSION - SPECIFIC UPDATE ITEMS: Chairman Kim Kobza: The next item of business then will be Requests for Discussion and before I go to Mr. Smith, I would like to ask, do the Board Members have any specific items off of the Report/Update List that you want spend extra time on when we get to that list? Mr Clendenon? Mr. William Clendenon: No Sir! Chairman Kim Kobza: Mr. Mueller? Mr. Gil Mueller: There are some questions I had regarding the Park and Recreation Budget Submission List. That we didn' t get to last time. If we have the time, this meeting, I'd like to ask those questions of the staff. But we can wait until other people have spoken for that if Cyou like. 3 Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. I think that would be a good thing to do. I would like to once again talk a little bit about Vanderbilt Beach Turn-A-Round and also a status report on our Community Center Construction. OK. Having said that, Mr. Smith, you have asked that the Bonita Beach Park Presentation be. . . VI. REPORTS/UPDATES: A. BONITA BEACH PARK: Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes, . . .be brought up for discussion at this time. We've had a request from Dr. Eisenbud who is here, to go over the traffic flows of the joint Lee County Collier County Park. Dr. Eisenbud is here and he would like to discuss that. We also have George Archibald, who is the Transportation Administrator for Collier County, here and I think they would like to make a little presentation this morning. So Dr. Eisenbud. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Let me just understand something. Is this in the nature of a Public Petition then? Mr. Murdo Smith: It was just brought up for discussion. Chairman Kim Kobza: Is Mr. Archibald going to make a presentation too? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. I believe so. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Alright. Dr. Eisenbud. For purposes of the record, would you state your full name and address please? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Do you prefer me here or at the corner of the table? Chairman Kim Kobza: The podium would be great. If you want to move that forward, please feel free to do that. We have a small. . . (Dr. Eisenbud proceeded to move the podium forward about six feet) Good. Good. Good. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: I'm Leon Eisenbud, I'm a resident of Barefoot Beach, I'm retired. Retired four years ago. Mrs. Eisenbud is here with me. We moved down and have been living on Barefoot Beach since that time. I have something that I've passed out which I hope each of you has copy of. I think in the interest of time, I was very careful to check on what your customs are, but I wasn' t sure that about 15 minutes would not be overstaying my welcome. So, I think the best thing to do, would be for me to actually read this and I can stop anytime or If you like, wait until the end of it and ask the questions or discuss it afterwards. But, either way the best way to do this is generally not to ramble along, but to read the statement. So by way of introduction, I want to first thank you Mr. Chairman, and members of the Board for the opportunity to do this. Notice, that I'm accompanied by a delegation. This is not a protest or a petition as you say, but rather an opportunity to cooperate with the County in an effort to ,„ solve a potentially serious problem which is the overburdened 4 intersection of Bonita Beach Road, and Lely Beach Boulevard. Now that in itself is enough of a problem, but more specifically, we should be concerned about the traffic pattern just inside the intersection. Just inside the intersection patterns which are already unsafe and at times caotic. Let me first of all (he proceeded to pass out a map of the intersection which the PARAB Members already had a copy of) you all should have a map. If you have not got that, Ramona was good enough to make some copies. I'm going to hand those out. Mr. Murdo Smith: I think everyone has it. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: OK. I'm going ask you if I may come up like this to just recognize that the spot that I'm talking about, is right here (pointing to the map) . This is Bonita Beach Road. I'm talking about this spot here. (pointing to the map) . The problem that we're talking about exists right here (pointing to the map) . This is a median that which is planted, the black line there. So, you'll all appreciate what I'm referring to. This is the road that is connected, a windy road, to a parking area for Bonita Beach. Everybody has that in mind now? OK. That problem that we're talking about, is not so much, Bonita Beach Road itself, which in itself is a problem and Mr. Archibald's going to deal with that. But, the chaos that exists currently and will be aggrivated later on between the Gaurd house, which is this black square, and the median and the access road which enters there. Now the recent descision by the Board of Commissioners to make the entrance to the Park off Barefoot Beach Entryway. I call that the entryway. They have suggested that it be a permanent exit or entrance. I think that it was arrived at, as our residents do, and our association, feels that it was arrived at without a careful inspection of the conditions of the site, without consideration of data which is already available at the Department of Transportation. We believe the descision was premature, and essentially was arrived at on a political basis. I watched the Commission meeting. There's no question in my mind that it was just waived through because of pressures from certain elements in the Community. Our Association is confident that further analysis will demonstrate clearly that retaining the existing location as the entry or exit to the combined park is not desirable. Furthermore we believe there are alternative solutions which will allay the concerns of the residents, and prove as well to be advantageous to the public in general, including the residents of Lee County. So let's talk first about the site itself. You already cry to me with this, but I'm going to take advantage of your generosity and just review it quickly. What are the sources of traffic that go past that point. First several thousand condominimums on Ft. Myers Beach and Hickory Boulevard and the entire population of the many beachfront and backwater communities of Southwest Lee County. These people have no other satisfactory route to or from U.S. 41 other than to go up the Sanibel route. As a result, we believe having monitored this now for years, that most of the traffic that goes past that point makes a right turn up towards Ft. Myers Beach and the backwaters, and their vendors and their deliveries and so forth. You're involved with a community of several thousand individuals, and they don' t have any way to get to U.S. 41 except for that route. Now Barefoot beach itself. This is the only entrance to this residential community. When built out, there will be 686 5 residential units on Barefoot Beach, and if you use the index that I've been told to use, 2.1 population per residential unit. Barefoot beach will then have a population of approximately 1400 Collier County Residents, and that will happen within a very few weeks, because construction, unlike many other areas is going rapidly. The Condo units themselves are under built construction. There are 12 six story Condos that are virtually sold out. So we're going to see this population. Chairman Kim Kobza: Dr. Eisenbud? Do you know the breakdown of multifamily and single family in that 686? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: I didn' t bring those, where I can tell you. Chairman Kim Kobza: Those two have different trip generation rates if I. . . Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Right! Especially with the difference in seasons. There are going to be something like 328 Condo Units, and the rest are individual homes. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Now the next item is that this is the only entry point to Barefoot Beach preserve which I said earlier is the Jewel in the Crown of the Parks Department, and we have been monitoring the cars going through there, and this is off season. Still on Sundays we've had over 200 cars going in and the number of parking spaces anticipated I was told today is going to approach 200 and they'll all have to go in and out of that entrance. Since there's no charge for parking at the Preserve, and Delnor-Wiggins is charging $3.25 we've already begun to see in the Bonita Banner letters to the Editor about how come they are charging so much at the State park and we know where we can go. Well of course they're going to come to the free park, and they should. So we think it's going to be very heavy utilization during the tourist season. Let me put to rest now, the issue of the Gaurd House and the Gate open or closed. They way it works today is excellent. The gate is for all practical purposes open. But, everyone stops. Because most of the people don' t know where to go unless they're regular users. There are six different subdivisions in there and they stop at the Gaurd House, and the Gaurds are very polite and say "yes?" and they say "We want to go to Southport, etc." or "We want to go to the park" and they just waive them through and they just click them in. It works just fine. However, there are times when the gate is down. It has to stay down, which is after sundown and so forth. I really that on anticipating the possibility, that there will be another community uprising in Hickory Shores and elsewhere about that gate this season. You must understand that the residents feel entitled to that protection. The property's been sold with that understanding, it's reasonable, it's not holding things up, and in fact they receive important information when they come to the park and also about where to go. 6 Mr. Gil Mueller: Let me ask you a question at this point. You said that the residents of Hickory whatever it is subdivision would object to having a Gaurd House there? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Based on experience last Winter, there's political issue involved, which we don' t understand, because every community (i.e. Quail Creek) has a Gaurd House. Mr. Gil Mueller: I don' t see the logic to it. If it's a private community. . . Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Well, It is a private community and yet there was. I think maybe the fuss was the fee. But whatever the fuss was it existed, it was in the papers, and I've said over and over again the residents took a beating for that one and we really had nothing to do with it. So you know about the preserve, and you know that we're going to have a lot of traffic there. Now let me add, something that you may not know, and that is, that at the South end of Lely Beach Boulevard, just short of the entrance to the preserve. A club is being built. It was the Orderly Club, but it's now been changed. It's been sold. It's called the Miramar. The plans that I've been discussing with Dick Class, who had taken over the management of that, includes about 400 feet of beach front. That is, it's going to be located on about 400 feet of beach front extending through to the back, to the bay. They will have tennis courts, swimming pool, a building with a gymnasium, and refreshment center, a hot and cold cuisine restaurant. They're sending out a survey. Chairman Kim Kobza: Where's that located again? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Let's see now. It's located between the cottages and the condos. It's about 300 or 400 feet from the entrance of the preserve. Chairman Kim Kobza: On Barefoot Beach? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: On Lely Barefoot Beach. Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: You're within the residential areas there? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: So in otherwords if you're going down the beach, you have the horseshoe pods. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: That's the Beach Gardens on the right had side. Chairman Kim Kobza: On the right hand side? Are you saying it's between there and the Condominiums? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: No. It's further south than the condos. Chairman Kim Kobza: South of the condos? 7 Dr. Leon Eisenbud: The only thing that's closer to the preserve I think are the cottages. Chairman Kim Kobza: So this would be on Barefoot Beach closer to the County Park. Down the beach from the condominium? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: That's right. Same road, but down further. Now the plans for that are interesting. The people who buy condos in the Barefoot Beach club, those 348 people have been obligated to purchase memberships in that club. How they arrange that is their business. So you've got those people. But, in addition is and exchange program being developed with other clubs. So, we expect that will increase the traffic too. What I'm really trying to bring out that you recognize, is that there's a lot of activity on Lely Beach Boulevard. Now finally we get to the problem of Bonita Beach itself which currently has at least two entrances. One of them is located at the entry to Barefoot Beach at the point that you see on your map. Is everybody able to see that spot? It's a. . . Let's see, it's right here. In other words, people come in off Bonita Beach Road, make a left or a right and then there's a gaurd house here. To get to the parking for the park, they have to make a right turn. Everybody clear about the location? OK. Now here's what happens. Sappose the traffic is leaving the park. They exit the park at the point and then where they exit is at right angles to Lely Beach Boulevard. They come in, they look at the map, it's at right angles to Lely Beach Boulevard. Then they have to cross the traffic that's coming in to Lely Beach Boulevard to get to the other side of the road, to make a left turn, to get to Bonita Beach Road. And of course this has already been a problem, because there isn' t any room for stacking there. The gaurds try to help with the traffic, but when there's a lot of people leaving, that happens when it rains as you know. From both directions. They flee from the Preserve, and they run from the Bonita Beach Park, and they all converge at that one point trying to get out, and there's no stacking room, and it has been difficult. Some of the residents, though I haven' t experienced, claim that there have been near accidents. Another aspect of this, which I must point out to you is that whole entryway is owned by the residents. That's Lely Property, which is being transferred to our Master Association. We paid for the landscaping, we paid for the monuments, we paid for the paving, we maintain the Gaurdhouse and the Gaurds. So I think there also inherent in this arrangement very serious liability problems for Collier County in allowing that traffic to enter and come from our property on their way to. . . I don' t know, this is now Lawyer talk, but we feel that's a problem. We ought not to have the problem the uses of County parks, preverbial going on our property. As it is we are required by easement to permit the population to use Lely Beach Boulevard to the Preserve, but that was an easement that was arrived at years ago, even though we maintain that road, and own it. It's permanently the access point to the preserve. So, those are some of the problems. Now let me just give you one moment on the History of this easement. I'm quoting now from the document which is available to you from inspection. It says, "For the term of this Easement shall be perpetual provided no the less that said easement shall terminate at such time as a second roadway, or an additional access other than herein conveyed is provided to above 8 described parking lot adjacent thereto. " At the time this was done, according to Mr. Class, and John Agnelli, and the Lely Corporation there was an understanding that this was a temporary arrangement and it implies, although it doesn' t say that, but it certainly implies that at some time in the future, a second roadway would be available. The residents have all sold their property with the understanding that was a temporary arrangement. Now moving along to the possibility of solving this. Here's where Mr. Archibald comes in. I think, in fact, it probably would be better for Mr. Archibald to discuss the alternatives to this current situation rather than my doing it. But, I do want to turn to paragraph five and I say, "A Bonus" . Now, in addition to the advantages of relocating that entrance, the winding road which leades to the parking at the beach at the west end is on a piece of property that currently belongs to Lely Development. If you'll turn the page and read the letter that I have from John Agnelli, He says further to our conversation I would verify that it is our intent to cooperate fully with respect to the relocation of the entrance. Then he says, Lely agrees that the roadway, and adjacent property will be deeded to the County if the access currently existing is closed. I took a look at it, and I think that would provide at least another 40 or 50 parking spaces. Now that's a valuable piece of property, and it will be transferred to the Management Association if it doesn't go to the County. I think that's a bonus. I think that's a really excellent way to deal with that piece of property is to convert it to parking spaces. I think at this point, probably is in order for Mr. Archibald to talk to you about some technical things, the traffic and the way to deal with it. Thank you very much. Mr. Gil Mueller: May I ask you some questions? It's been a number of months since we've discussed this Board at least has discussed this Lely Barefoot thing in any depth. I'd just like you to clarify some things. Your map. . . Does the end of your map here down in the lower left hand corner, where is that in relationship to the map up there? Mr. Murdo Smith: I could probably show you. This is basically the end of that map right there. This part right here (pointing to the map) . This is the Collier County parking lot here (pointing to the map) , the Lee County parking lot here (pointing to the map) . Mr. Gil Mueller: Where is it in relationship to the green map on the bottom there? Mr. Murdo Smith: This here (pointing to the Master Plan Map)? Mr. Gil Mueller: Yes. Mr. Murdo Smith: That's private property. There's condominiums and so forth there. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: That's the Villas. Mr. Murdo Smith: Our entrance comes in. . . Up here it shows it on this map coming in through here (pointing to the Master Plan Map) . This ,,wi„ point is approximately right here. Are you with me now? 9 Mr. Gil Mueller: This point is right there? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. This point here, is right here. Mr. Gil Mueller: Where is this point? Mr. Murdo Smith: Right here. Mr. Gil Mueller: Oh! I see! Mr. Murdo Smith: This is the County, this is our parking lot right here, this part right here, and it comes out makes a little S curve and goes up, which is this right here. Mr. Gil Mueller: So this point is this point. Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Mr. Gil Mueller: OK. That helps me tremendously. Chairman Kim Kobza: Dr. Eisenbud? Can I ask you a couple of questions? I gather from the intent of you presentation that what you're advocating is that the location of the entryway be at a place other than Lely Boulevard and what you're really saying is that there would be some type of mid-point entrance on that curve someplace. Well, I asked a minute ago what you're. . . Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Yes. We've talked about this, in fact Mr. Archibald was very good. He came up to look at the place with the residents and has helped us from a technical standpoint. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. But I just wanted to understand that is in fact what you're advocating. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Yes Chairman Kim Kobza: Then you're saying as part of that approach, that the drive that currently exists to the East, in stead of being dedicated to the homeowners and that land would potentially be available for parking as well. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: It would make sense. Chairman Kim Kobza: So, you're advocating extension of that parking lot to the East, and you're expanding it that way? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Yes Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Have you had any independent traffic engineering done? Or, has to your knowledge, John Agnelli or any of those people. . . Dr. Leon Eisenbud: John Agnelli asked Coastal to look at it. All they `r did was come up with alternatives. 10 Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Coastal's working for the County. I'm saying, have you gave any seperate traffic. . . Dr. Leon Eisenbud: That's the Association Chairman Kim Kobza: Or the association? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: No we have not. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. I may have some other questions for you, but those are. . . Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Thanks. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Mr. Archibald? Mr. Archibald: Thankyou. I need to explain a little bit. Dr. Eisenbud had asked me to attend this meeting to not only bring him up to date, but also to bring the Board up to date on the alternatives and also the status of the discussion between Lee and Collier County from a traffic standpoint. You all probably are more knowledgable about some of the background than I am, but in essence, the problem we have is one that the residents within Lely Barefoot Beach object to having access to public parking through their entranceway. The first thing that I did, was meet with the Association. Dr. Eisenbud had invited me up there. I met with them. I was not tarred and feathered. But, I did bring a little bit of a traffic report with me. We did some extrapalations. Because, I'm probably the guilty party of causing the problem to begin with. I say that, because my recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners and to this Board for that matter is that we always keep the parking lot that Collier County has that will interconnenct with Lee County. . . Always keep in mind, that we need to be assured that the access to that parking lot is through a signalized intersection. That was my premise all along, and that was one reason why I had recommended that the connection between Lely Barefoot Beach entrance road and the parking area that Lely built for the County, that it remain in place. Because as we know, in season, you can not make a west bound left turn on Bonita Beach Road. Even after four (4) laning, it may be very very difficult to be able to use either the Lee County or the Collier County parking area without that key ingrediant. That is a signalized intersection of some kind. So, what we did after the meeting in Lely, Lely Barefoot Beach, was to go ahead and take a look at signalized intersection locations. I'm going to give you all another map. Hopefully it won' t be too confusing, but anothere map that would show Bonita Beach Road, the entrance to the Lely Barefoot Beach, and then in red, I've attempted to outline three possible intersections. The first one that we've always concentrated on, and I've compared notes with my counterparts in Lee County, has been to recognize that if we signalize the Lely Barefoot Beach Intersection and the Condos on the north side of Bonita Beach Road as we connect their driveway at that location then we'll have a four way intersection. We can put up a traffic signal. It'll serve everybody, and if the Beach Parking is tied into it, then people comeing and going from the Beach parking area can do just that. I was told a story, and I believe it 11 very very much. It's that during season, the people that live in the Condominimums on the North side of Bonita Beach Road directly oposite the park, they leave their condo, they get into their automobile, they drive down to Bonita Beach Road, and they wait for a break in the traffic to make a left turn. There's no such thing as a break in the traffic. In fifteen or twenty minutes they back up, and they go back to their Condo, because there's no way they can get out onto Bonita Beach Road. That's been my concern, and that's why I've somewhat lobied counter to the Lely Barefoot beach folks, that we need to keep the parking lot interconnected with Lely Barefoot Beach. At the meeting, some of the representatives of the Civic Association, the Homeowners Association, came in with a very good recommendation to solve the problem. They asked us to go ahead and look into it. That is that they would forgo a signal at their entranceway, and if the County could take the money from the Developer, and move the signal, and with that money, go ahead and create another four way intersection just to the west. So the sketch that I've left with you is one that shows not only the intersection at Lely Barefoot Beach, but also the possibility of another location either immediately to the West, or one that lines up with the existing driveway to the north which is right here. So, what we're going back and looking at, is restricting access to Lely Barefoot beach for essentially only traffic coming from the East to the West which would be consistent with Collier County needs. So people coming from the east getting access to either the Preserve or the Parking area have an intersection to turn at, storing lanes and all that. Further to the east, we could develop and intersection here where we would have a driveway serving the Condos to the north, and a driveway serving the parking area to the south. Then, we would simply take the money for the signal, for Lely Barefoot Beach and relocated it to this point right here as an alternative. We're looking at that alternative to solve two problems. Solve the concerns that the residents have, and also to meet a commitment that the residents said that they would be willing to live under the four lane condition. The conditions were the median opening only provided for Westbound left turns and it prohibited North bound left turns which means everybody living in the Lely Barefoot Community can go to the east and they can come from the East to the West. But, they can' t go back to the west or the North without going to the east. Now if I haven't confused anyone. . . But in essence, they've aggreed to some access contraints which will make a good access to their community and also to the preserve. At the same point in time, if we are able to move the signalized intersection to the west a little bit, then we would still serve the very very important concern of having the Lee County and the Collier County Beach Parking area controlled through a signalized intersection where people can come and go. Ms. Geneva Till: I have a question. You said "if we can move that signal" . Now what would preclude moving that? I mean, what are the conditions there? Mr. Archibald: We've met with the official with Lee County last week to make sure that both Counties are looking at some of the same criteria. Typically, from a transportation standpoint, what we look at is the appropriate site conditions, the appropriate distance, and 12 storage lanes that are required for turning movements, we look at the descision time for certain traffic movements. Our biggest concern, is that we've got a big sweeping curve in here which people that are coming Southbound lickety split, and all of a sudden, we put up a signal there. We need to make sure that there's plenty of advance warning so people can get prepared to stop. So, we're looking at the design here (pointing to map) or that other location which would be righ over to the east of that. So we're looking at two different locations to make sure we can come in with a safe intersection. If we can, then that may be the solution to not only the problem that's been presented to the Lely Barefoot Beach residents, but also it would provide for good access to the parking area because we know that we're going to be constrained at this location up in Lee County. So, we're not going to have much of an intersection here (pointing to map) , because of some right-of-way constraints. So we need to have, again, a signalized intersection, and this may be the location. So that's what we're looking into. Mr. William Clendenon: On your chart there, the street going into the Lee County Condos? Does that exist now? Mr. Archibald: Yes it does. We have some arials that show that, and on the sketch, I've tried to outline where the Condominium footprints are, and you'll see that we can locate the intersection either in line with the current access point, or we can move it over a little bit. That could also be constructed to a line between the Condos and line up with Collier County. So there's actually three different locations where we can have signals and four way intersections at some future point in time. Part of our study would determine which one is the best, whether or not we could go to one of the western locations, and under what conditions would be end up constructing it. Whose money would we end up using to improve the intersection itself, and make sure that both Counties will sign off on it. (End of Tape 1-A) Ms. Geneva Till: . . . to say well, if we can do this, maybe we can do that, but we hope we can put this right there, but it's not really giving much direction. How safe are you. If we say, Yes we're going with your recommendation? Mr. Archibald: All I'm doing today, is giving you a little bit of a run-down on what the staff is looking at. There's not enough information for the staff or for the Parks Board to make a recommendation at this point in time. But we've looked at it, and we feel pretty confident that we can do a little bit more work, and probably come up with a design. That design is what Dr. Eisenbud wants to look at, to make good sure it's acceptable to his Association, and that's what we want to look at to make good sure it'll function realitive to getting people in and out of the parking area, and too that it needs to meet transportation standards. So, all I'm doing, is giving you'll a little preview of what we're looking at. Once we come in with the final design, it probably will be very appropriate for us to bring that back to you, and then we would be making a recommendation that we feel a certain design would be appropriate at a certain location and we would recommend that. 13 Mr. Gil Mueller: Mr. Archibald, I can appreciate Dr. Eisenbud's concern as far as the congestion at this intersection is concerned. Not only would it be difficult for the residents Lely Barefoot Beach or the general public, it would be a burden for the gaurd. No question about it. But, does your drawing reflect the drawing that we saw here a few months ago that Coastal Engineering gave us? Maybe this is an identical drawing, I don' t know. Chairman Kim Kobza: That's the Site Plan right there. Mr. Archibald: Mr. Smith loaned that. So it must be the same one. Mr. Gil Mueller: Then this drawing reflects that, obviously. This is the same plan that the County Commissioners approved in conjunction with the Lee County Commissioners here a while back, three or four weeks ago? Mr. Archibald: The parking plan is. The Board had indicated at that time, this access to Lely Barefoot Beach Boulevard be maintained until such time as the Study Phase will be completed. Mr. Gil Mueller: The Study Phase, in order to alleviate this congestion, and put in another intersection such as you've outlined here? Mr. Archibald: Yes. Mr. Gil Mueller: OK. See, I thought that the plan that Coastal Engineering submitted to the BCC was pretty well solidified. I didn' t realize the door was still being opened as far as establishing an intersection here was concerned. Mr. Archibald: Their plan is solidified from the standpoint of the parking area and the improvements. The item that's been up in the air and remains up throughout, is. . . Where do we interconnect the two? How do we interconnect it to not only under the two land conditions, but also under the four lane conditions. That's what we'r going to be looking at. Also, as a result of analysing that with the Lee County Transportation people, we'll coordinate that with both Counties. We've also done some traffic projections and some traffic analysis up there and I think we all need to know that I don' t forsee the access to the parking area as being a hazard. There's going to be operational problems, and I that's what Dr. Eisenbud is outlining. I don' t forsee that as being an overwhelming problem because the traffic volumes that are generated within the Lely Barefoot Beach Development are going to be so large compared to the traffic volumes generated by the parking area, that this will be relatively a small volume. But it's still a volume that the Gate Gaurd has to deal with. Mr. Gil Mueller: Do you feel that eventually the access to the so-called Lee Collier Parking arrangement and access to the Lely Barefoot through the Lely residential area will have to be seperate? It's two seperate entrances, they can' t be as they are now, in conjunction with one another. 14 Mr. Archibald: I have no problem with what's there right now. Now the question is, is that there's a group out there, the Lely Barefoot Homeowners that do object to it. They have the problem with it, and they have a traffic concern, and there's a couple of solutions to that. Mr. Gil Mueller: But, if it's connected? If this Lee/Collier parking thing is connected with the Lely Barefoot entrance as it exists now, that congestion will continue, will it not? Mr. Archibald: Oh yes! Mr. Gil Mueller: Isn' t that what we're trying to eliminate? Mr. Archibald: I think the proposal that we've got here will sever those two connections and as a result will improve conditions. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: Well that's what I asked before. Will they be seperate access points. . . Mr. Archibald: Yes Mr. Gil Mueller: . . .as apposed to having them connected. Mr. Archibald: What you'll end up with, will be two intersections. There'll be an intersection with Lely Barefoot Beach that will not have a signal, and then you'll have an intersection immediately to the west which will have a signal. What we're proposing, and we haven' t talked with the Lely people about it to any great degree, but we would be expecting the dollar committments that Lely has to signalize their intersection. That those dollar committments be transferred, and those funds be used to install the signal that will serve the parking area. Chairman Kim Kobza: Could I ask some questions? What is the ADT on Bonita Beach Road? ADT is Average Daily Traffic. Mr. Archibald: Right now, under the two lane condition, it's about 18,500 cars. We projected that out to the year 2000, and you're looking at the 28 to 29 thousand cars on Bonita Beach Road. So, that's a straight line growth rate of 5%. It may be a little high, because that area is going to have to build out. During peak the season of the year, during the season where all the tourists are down, I think we all know that road is going to need four laning and that design is under way right now. Not the construction, but the design. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. What is the trip generation potential of the multi-family and the. . . Well, of the residential area of the Preserve areas of Barefoot Beach? Do we have an idea of what that is? Mr. Archibald: Yes. I've got a projection of all of that by different entities of use. Both the 1990 figures and our projections build that on the year 2000. What we're looking at in terms of traffic going in and out of there right now, is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,000 Naar trips from the residential units, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 oak 600 trips from the Beach Parking and the Beach Presereve. Now as the residential area builds out, my figures reflect about 700 units to build out, and Dr. Eisenbud has corrected me to indicate that there's going to be not only about 686 instead of 700. We're in the same ballpark, but in addition to that, there may be a Club/Restaurant facility that we'd have there. So, I think we're in the ballpark, but my numbers may be a little low. They may be a little bit high on build out, but at build out, the residential units are going to increase the traffic generation from about 2,000 to over 4,000 vehicles per day coming and going. Then with parking areas, it's not going to increase that much. The Preserve, we expect would produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 trips at the peak. The interconnection with this would produce probably another 600 trips. So, the beach parking and the beach preserve could generate over 1,000 trips. That's what the Gate Gaurd at the Lely Barefoot Beach Boulevard entrance would have to deal with. That's part of the trips that we would be relocating to another intersection. Chairman Kim Kobza: What is the trip generation of the condominimum • units on the North side of Bonita Beach Road? Do we have any idea of what that comparatively would be? Mr. Archibald: Do you recall the number of units? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: It's in the hundreds, but it's not in the thousands. Mr. Archibald: If we assume that we've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 units there. I'm not sure whether I'm in the ballpark. . . Chairman Kim Kobza: 500 Multi-family? Mr. Archibald: Yes. I believe that's all multi-family. Each one produces somewhere in the neighborhood of six trips a day. So, you've the potential of at 3 ,000 trips coming from the residents on the north side. Of course the solution for them, in addition to the solution for the Lee/Collier Parking area is the exact same solution really. You need a signal system to be able to stop the traffic to allow for the traffic movements to enter Bonita Beach Road, and that same signal that stops the traffic, can in fact allow traffic to enter Bonita Beach Road from the adjacent intersection. In this particular case that's why we're saying that if we have a signal just to the west of the Lely Barefoot Beach Entrance, then that signal may function to allow the people from Lely Barefoot Beach to make a right turn. Chairman Kim Kobza: How much latitude do you have in moving the existing entrance to the condominium entrance on the north side? Do you have any latitude on where that goes? Mr. Archibald: Yes. We've got in essence, three locations that it could be placed. Chairman Kim Kobza: It could be placed in any of these three? 16 Chairman Kim Kobza: Well, wait a second Dr. Eisenbud. Isn' t that. . . You know, I have an appreciation for that, but that in and of itself is a fairly in depth discussion and you know, we spent a lot of time, and I did, on a Special Task Force, Gil was there too, you know, addressing those issues as it relates to the Gaurd, as it relates to permits, as it relates to location, Gaurd Shack, the legal rights of all the parties, and everything else. So, you know, I want to be a little careful in our discussion of what those respective rights are because I think that's a fairly complex set of issues in and of itself. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: As I stated, I don't want to have a confrentation. That's not my style. I'm only pointing out to you that the Gaurd is paid by the residents of Barefoot Beach, and his jurisdiction, he's not an officer of the law, his juriscidtion is strictly related to people who are coming through that Gaurd house. Now let me say what I said just a minute ago about what happens there. This is a frequent occurrence. Somebody comes up in a car and stops at the gate, says "I have my wife, my three children, and my mother-in-law, and a picnic lunch, and want to go to the preserve. Now visualize this. The Preserve lot is full. Where is he saposed to go? He can go around the Gaurd House and come out the other side and then he can wait, because there is a turn-off. Where's he saposed to wait. There is no place for waiting people who are anxious to go to the preserve. That's the kind of small restricted access area essentially that I'm reffering to, that even today does not permit adequate control, staffing, or for people that want to go up to the Preverve. I think, from my standpoint, and from our Association's standpoint I think we've accomplished what we wanted to today in that you understand that there is a problem up there and that we are asking you to assist us in developing the solution to the problem. I didn' t come in here to say that we don' t like anything. I'm merely saying that statistics and traffic patterns should be studied, and that has been done, and since it seems to me there is an alternative plan, that has come up, that we would be satisified if you would recommend that to the Commission that's the better way to go, instead of leaving it as it is. Keep in mind again, about the parking area that you would gain if we close off that entrance. Chairman Kim Kobza: Are there any othere questions of Dr. Eisenbud? Mr. William Clendenon: I have a one question. You mentioned that by relocating this entryway into the parking lot, that you would have room for, I believe 40 additional parking spots? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Well, I walked over there and looked at it. That's a long winding road, and on either side, I think you could have at least twenty on each side. Mr. William Clendenon: Has there been any discussion do there at Lely about who would build these. . . Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Well, once the property is deeded to the County it would be taken care of during the construction of the entire combined park. That's my assumption. 20 Mr. William Clendenon: Didn' t Lely build the parking lot in the first place? Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Did he build that parking lot in the first place? I doubt it. Mr. William Clendenon: Yes. I believe he did. Chairman Kim Kobza: Any other questions of Doctor Eisenbud? Mr. Gil Mueller: I think we can assure Doctor Eisenbud that, I agree with what you say. It doesn' t look to me like a tremendous amount of consideration was given to the traffic problem when they entered into this Agreement with Lee County. I agree with one of the statements you made earlier, as far as the methods and the influences, involved. But, I don' t think you'll have any problem in working this out with Mr. Archibald. He's done this many many times before. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Are there any other questions. (no response) OK. Doctor Eisenbud, thank you very much for appearing. Mr. Archibald, I've got a couple of questions for you. You know, I am, I think we need to be concerned about the trade-offs that are getting made here. You know, essentially we've got one potential problem that we're trying to remedy, which is the people coming out of the lot, the inner-connected lot, and there be and interfearance with the Gaurd Shack and maybe that's livable, maybe it's not livable. I think I heard you say Mr. Archibald, that you don' t perceive that as a tremendous problem. Or, how do you. . . OK . . . and I'm not sure I do either, at this point. I want to keep an open mind I guess on that issue. What I am interested in, is these additional parking spots. Do you agree that we could get 40 additional parking spots out of that additional space? Mr. Archibald: I'm not sure. That's something we're going to have to look into. I think that the idea is to take part of the roadway that is there now, and re-construct that into a parking area, and it's relatively confined, allowing to be able to get into and out of it. So, I think that's one of the issues that we have to look at, in addition to the best locaction of an intersection. Chairman Kim Kobza: Because I think there are two issues that would fall out of an alternative. One issue would be. . . Probably three issues. One issue would be: We don' t want a lesser level of service for those people utilizing Barefoot Beach Preserve as a result of this alternative signalization, which is, the people coming from the East to the West and that's the same problem they would share with Dr. Eisenbud. I think, the second thing is: Obviously the cost question. By relocating the intersection, do we incurr additional potential cost in our site plan, or in the implementation of our design for the inter-connect. I think we budgeted $70,000 for that interconnect if I remember my numbers right. By doing this, say they took care of the cost of the signals, that's fine! But, what about our landscaping? What about our asphalt pattern? What about the cost of whatever it is Noe we have to do there? Is there any increase to us in that? Then, I 21 think the third thing is: Are we receiving as a County, a benefit of Beach Access because we can have 40 additional spots if that's the number? Or, is there another number? And, what's the cost of that? Those would seem to be the issues that I would want to a. . . You know maybe there are some others too, that should be. . . Mr. Archibald: There are, and I think that's one reason why you should expect us to make a more thorough report and return that to you. There's another player in this of course and that's the condos on the north side, and we would expect them to recognize we're a big benefit, and as a result, play a part in it, and providing some of the cost measures that may apply, depending upon where there entrance is moved, if it is moved. So, yes, I think the costs have to be brought into perspective along with all the people that we be asking to absorb any increase in cost. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Are there any additional questions of Mr. Archibald? (no response) Mr. Archibald: Thank you for your time. Chairman Kim Kobza: Thank you very much. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Mr. Kobza, if you'll forgive me. On the issue of the Gaurd function, I'm going to have our attorney check that out. I mean, I don' t understand what you said and how you can possibly make the Gaurd in any way responsible for County traffic. So, I'll ask our attorney to check that. Chairman Kim Kobza: Well, Doctor Eisenbud, that's not really. . . I appreciate the fact that you pay for the Gaurd that's there. But, I think the issue is how the Gaurd is utilized, and that is also the access point to the County Beach Preserve, and that has been an issue of a great debate as you know and what that Gaurd's rights are, in terms of allowing people in and out of that access point. So, I'm a. . . You know, I recognize the issues. Let me just put it that way. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: That's legalities for me. I have to turn that over to our Attorney. Chariman Kobza: Sure. OK. Thank you Mr. Archibald, this is a public hearing. Would anyone else want to speak on this issue at all? (no response) OK. If there is no additional discussion then, as I understand it, there's no PARAB action required. Mr. Murdo Smith: No. It was just an update. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. I'd like to thank everybody for their presentations. Dr. Leon Eisenbud: Thank you very much! Chairman Kim Kobza: We'll look forward to seeing everybody again. OK. rrir 22 V. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS: Chairman Kim Kobza: What is the next item of business? Mr. Murdo Smith: The next one would be Barefoot Beach Preserve Bath House. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Is that what the consultants are here to speak on? Mr. Murdo Smith: No. I was going to speak on that one. Chairman Kim Kobza: What are the consultants here to speak on? Mr. Murdo Smith: I don' t think they're here for anything? Chairman Kim Kobza: At all? Mr. Murdo Smith: No, I think they were just going to be here for the traffic. . . Chairman Kim Kobza: For the Barefoot Beach thing? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. A. BAREFOOT BEACH PRESERVE BATH HOUSE BUILDING BID: Chairman Kim Kobza: Next item of business, the Barefoot Beach Bath House Building Bid. Mr. Murdo Smith: OK. Mr. Gil Mueller: Smack that gavel a couple of times, we're out of order. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Next item of business, the Barefoot Beach Bath House Building Bid. Mr. Smith? Mr. Murdo Smith: OK. This is a bid that was placed out for the Bath House Facility at the Barefoot Beach Preserve. The Bid was advertised on September 20, 1991. The Pre-bid conference was held on September 26, 1991. The Bid was opened on October 9, 1991. Six Bids were received. I believe that you have a tabulation sheet of all the Bids that were received that we had sent to you in your package. What we're doing at the present time is the lowest bidder or lowest bidder Vanderbilt Bay Construction Inc. Their total cost for the project was approximately 184,600 dollars. Ladd Ryziw, the Engineer Project Mgr. , and I, and Micah Massaquoi, Senior Engineer are going over these bids to make sure they're all accurate and so forth, and we have a couple of questions on the Vanderbilt Bay Construction Bid that they have submitted. However, they feel that the bids will be fairly well substantiated and will be correct. So, what we're going to recommend is that when staff has reviewed the Low Bidders Options, that this 23 Board direct us to take the Low Bidder and proceed to go to the BCC with it. If there are any questions, I'll be glad to answer them for you. I do have a plan of the Bath House if anyone would like to see it. Chairman Kim Kobza: I think that would possibly be helpful to us. I think one of the questions, Mr. Smith, is I wasn' t aware that. . . Well, let me put it this way. In the Summer we were talking about the alternatives at the Barefoot Beach Preserve, what we were going to do, or not do, and this was one of the issues that was at least partially discussed in the Task Force. So, now are we endorsing the construction of the Bath House by approving this bid? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Mr. Murdo Smith: This is something that basically a, it was. . . (end of tape #1-B) . . . the best one here. What I'll do is just pass it around here so everybody can see. These are the elevations that we have on the building. Mr. William Clendenon: Is this what it would look like south of the beach? Mr. Murdo Smith: Right. It's a building with a deck for some sitting around. Covered. There's a handicapped walkway going up to the Bath House. Ms. Geneva Till: Where are the Boardwalks? Mr. Murdo Smith: Right here. Ms. Geneva Till: It's so extensive here, I can' t understand why. . . Mr. Murdo Smith: Right. That's one of the things that we're thinking. We're looking at the bid that the Gentleman had for the Boardwalk, and we believe that he has also included some of the decking in with his bid. We're looking at that proposal that he submitted. The walkway has a handicapped ramp, to get up to the Bath House facility. This is the boardwalk that they're talking about, Mrs. Till. It's this boardwalk right here. It comes from the parking lot up around and into the back of the Bath House. Because of the elevation of the Bath House, we had to design a way that a handicapped ramp could get up there, and that is the Boardwalk that is costing the 64,000 dollars. However, I believe that they have also taken in part of the decking in that cost. Because his building price is a little bit lower than everyone elses. Mr. William Clendenon: Yes. That 62 is awful high compared to some of the others. Ms. Geneva Till: Yes. When the others are building it for 22. I don' t know. That just doesn' t quite ring through, that should be 24 there. Mr. Murdo Smith: The Transportation Department and us are looking at that to see that it is correct. Because his building is substantially lower than everyone elses. So, he's probably <7> what we're <7> there. Chairman Kim Kobza: That makes me very uncomfortable. This difference, because this building 72 versus 139, and I know that might be what he did, but what if it's not what he did? Mr. Murdo Smith: We're checking into that right now Kim, to make sure that the bid is correct and that it is a good bid as far as those figures are concerned. Ms. Geneva Till: Well, would you get back to us again, before. . . Mr. Murdo Smith: Well, we could probably come back to you, if you wanted to on you Special Meeting on the 30th. I think you have a Special Meeting. We could possibly have it by then for you. If not, it may slow down the process if we have to wait for the next meeting. What I'd like to do, is if we can get a recommendation, that we've reviewed these bids and we find that they're correct, and go with the lowest responsive bidder. That's what we would do. Mr. William Clendenon: In other words go with. . . Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. The lowest responsive bidder. I mean, we would basically do that anyway. Chairman Kim Kobza: Do you have any other questions for him, Mr. Clendenon? Mr. William Clendenon: No sir. Chairman Kim Kobza: Can you describe any other projects that Vanderbilt Bay has built that I would know of? Mr. Murdo Smith: I don' t know of any right now. Chairman Kim Kobza: Have they done any other works for Parks and Recreation. Mr. Murdo Smith: Not that I'm aware of. Chairman Kim Kobza: This would be their first draft? Mr. Murdo Smith: This would be their first draft. Chairman Kim Kobza: Do we have experience with the other bidders (i.e. Cross & Cross)? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. We have experience with at least two of them that I know of. 25 Mr. Gary Franco: McGovern and Cross & Cross. Chairman Kim Kobza: What's the likelyhood of being able to check these numbers before the meeting on the 30th? Mr. Murdo Smith: I think we'll be able to do that. In fact, their doing it right now. It's just that we haven' t got all the information together. Chairman Kim Kobza: I'm certainly willing do it. The Board's pleasure is. . . But, boy I'm sure uncomfortable. Ms. Geneva Till: I'm uncomfortable with that, if we find that they are right or they're wrong that you're going to to ahead and write them in. That word "if" in there kind of bothers me. Mr. Murdo Smith: OK. Well what we do, is we take the lowest responsive bidder. If there was a problem with his bid, you know then. . . But, he seems to think it's correct. Mr. Gil Mueller: Why don' t you get the information for us, for the 30th. That's only going to delay it a week, and then everybody's mind is going to be at ease, and one week more or less, is insignificant compared to the overall picture anyway. Chairman Kim Kobza: Question. Are these moneys coming out of impact fee? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: Is it, what? The North Naples. . . Mr. Murdo Smith: It'll be the Regional Park Impact Fee moneys. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Are these the only moneys coming out of that. . . What's the fund balance in the Regional Park Impact Fee? Mr. Murdo Smith: These were funds that were budgeted last year for this project, and we're just carrying forward that money to next year. It has already been budgeted last year, but the project hasn' t been completed until the start of this year. I don' t know exactly what the balance is, but you've got almost two million dollars in there or something like that. Chairman Kim Kobza: Does the park currently warrant this expenditure, the usage of the park, and the usage levels. Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. On the weekends right now. Gary, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but we're getting over 150 cars in there a day. What's happening, is that we need to have the facilities there at that park. Tigertail has it, and of course we're going to have a big parking lot. Now' Chairman Kim Kobza: How are we going to maintain this facility, in 26 light of our current budget crunch? Mr. Murdo Smith: Currently, we're in the process of hiring two part time Park Rangers. Part of their responsibility will be to maintain that facility. Mr. Gary Franco: Staffing and Maintenance. Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Staffing and Maintaining it. Chairman Kim Kobza: So, the Park Rangers are going to get into the maintenance of the facility too? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: Is that a departure from how we use the Park Rangers, or. . . Mr. Murdo Smith: A little bit, but since they will be there basically, all day long, we're going to have them handle that too. The Parks and Recreation Maintenance Staff will still be doing the maintenance on the other things, like the mowing, and so forth. We'll have the Park Rangers just do a little bit of maintaing the bathrooms. Chairman Kim Kobza: Where would the boardwalks be located? How many boardwalks are there, and where are located? Mr. Murdo Smith: OK. There's only one boardwalk in question on this. It is a walkway, or it's a handicapped access basically from the parking lot to the bath house. The elevation is high, and we had to, instead of having a steep slope, we put a walkway around the back of the building that gradually goes up, so that the wheel chairs can get up on that access. Chairman Kim Kobza: How long and how wide is that boardwalk? Mr. Murdo Smith: It's going to be five foot wide. It's going to be a thousand square feet. Its not going to go to the beach. This is the parking lot, this is where the bath house is going, the walkway will come up around the back and go here. These walkways go to the ones that are existing, and go down to the beach. They're going to connenct. These are not being built today. We're going to eventually connect these. That's in another Phase. Chairman Kim Kobza: How wide are the existing walkways there? Mr. Murdo Smith: Five feet. Chairman Kim Kobza: I've got a question for you, as it relates to the width of the walkways. Does five feet give us adequate emergency access? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. The ramps are not designed to have a ambulance run on them. 27 Mr. Gary Franco: It's not vehicular. Mr. Murdo Smith: But, they can get down with their stretchers and so forth. Chairman Kim Kobza: Five feet wide, you can get a stretcher down there and back? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. So, we'll re-examine this at the 30th. meeting? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK Mr. Murdo Smith: We'll go ahead and re-examine the numbers again, and I'll get back to you on the 30th regarding if that is an accurate assumption of course. Chairman Kim Kobza: Are there any other questions of Mr. Smith at all? (no response) OK. Is there any public comment at all? (no response) OK. That Agenda Item then will be held over to the 30th. Public Comment: I have a question. Chairman Kim Kobza: Sir, if you would approach the podium and state your name and address for the record. Mr. Dave Ward: For the record, my name is Dave Ward. I'm Vice President of CABB (Citizen's Association of Bonita Beach) We've been interested in Parks and Collier County for a long time. The question I have is very simple. You have a parking lot in there, or several of them, where you pull off on the right hand side of the road, and then you have stretches on the left hand side or the east side where there's parallel parking to the road. Down in there, just before you get to the end though, is that big dune and the boardwalk that comes up to the dune. As I was looking at your original plan to this, it showed a parking lot in there where that dune is. It showed three parking lots and you actually only have two. Then it showed a parking lot that was planned on, and it was the state land. What's holding the parking lot up? Mr. Murdo Smith: Right now Mr. Ward, we have that parking lot scheduled for this year to be constructed. Mr. Dave Ward: Then all that fill there is going be used by used. Mr. Murdo Smith: For some parking, yes sir, they're going to move it around so they could get around the dune. But, that parking lot is in the plans for this coming year. A+rr Mr. Dave Ward: How many cars are for the parking lot? 28 Mr. Murdo Smith: Approximately 44. That would be the third parking lot. What we did, is we broke it down into Phases. The first two parking lots was basically the first phase, the bath house was the second, and the additional parking lot would be like the third phase. Chairman Kim Kobza: Mr. Ward, a question for you. Do you support the construction of the Bath House that we were just discussing? Mr. Dave Ward: Certainly! Beautiful! I've seen the plans before, and I thought they were very similar to the ones that's going up in Lee County. I was kind of surprised to see a refreshment stand up there. Of course, you're in an isolated area, and I sapose you do need it. A lot of people bring their own stuff to the beach though. Chairman Kim Kobza: I know your group's been very active with respect to Barefoot Beach. So you do support construction of this kind of bath house? Mr. Dave Ward: Oh yes! I think it's great! I'll refer to my wife a little bit. I'm sure she does too. Mrs. Ward: There are no facilities of any sort down there at all, and it certainly is needed, because a type of facility that's necessary especially in a desolate section. People have to have something they can use. 1 Chairman Kim Kobza: Will that facility have communications? Will we have a phone down there? i i Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. i Mr. Dave Ward: No, I think it's tremendous! It's beautiful! I'm sure that there's a very definite need for it. I would go further to say that in your ultimate plans for the State Park land, that I would like to see a bath house down below the parking lot further. I don' t you have any provision for it in your preliminary plans. I would like to see something down there, because it's quite a walk for some. I'm sure a lot of people will be walking down the beach and so forth. In the State Parks their using these Swedish Culvis Multrins or something like that. That's probably what should go in down there at the end. I'd recommend that, and I hope you give that a thought. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Well, Mr. Ward thank you very much for appearing and I always appreciate when you and Mrs. Ward and your group come down and participate, because it helps us. It gives us more information to know what's going on there, and to make a descision. So, we appreciate it. Mrs. Ward: We had hoped to get here in time, but we were a little late for the discussion which had to do with the combination of Barefoot and Bonita and that was particularly what we had come for. Because of coming late, we don' t know just exactly what has been discussed before, so that's why we didn' t put any input into it. I 29 Chairman Kim Kobza: Well, I suspected that was the case. I think the good thing there is that it is coming back before us, and basically what was discussed, was that there are several alternatives and Mr. Archibald is going to look at each one without having the descision at least from a recommendation from our standpoint made at this point in time. Mrs. Ward: You're talking about the entrance? Chairman Kim Kobza: The entryway. There is quite a few factors there, of course our interests are very similar to yours, which are to get people in and out our park very efficiently as we can. But that was a good discussion from a standpoint that nothing has happened at this point in time. We haven' t made a recommendation, and if we expect to in the future when Mr. Archibald comes back. Mr. Dave Ward: When will that be? Chairman Kim Kobza: Whatever monthly Agenda they come back, that's staff's perogative to bring that before us again. Mr. Dave Ward: Because see, our interest is to get an Interlocal Agreement signed and get something moving, because anything else is procrastinating by one party or another. It isn' t really helping the situation, because Lee County is ready to go, and When you're ready to go at the State, you better make a move or you're going to have problems. So, it's important. Chairman Kim Kobza: Well, we appreciate that. We appreciate your coming. Mrs. Ward: Are you aware of the fact that Lee County has the permit from the Governor and the Cabinet. September 24th. the Governor and Cabinet voted unanimously to approve the plans for Lee County. So, everything there is set to go, with the exeption of the fact that it hindges upon the joining of the two parks to each other, and it is going to take that much longer before there is some type of a descision there. Chairman Kim Kobza: From our standpoint, we will do everything we can to move it along, from our boards position. We certainly aren' t a holdup to anything. We act on things as they're brought to us, and if necessary, we have special meetings. But, we will not be the bottleneck to any of that. So, OK? Mrs. Ward: Well, the Board indicated, and I don' t know if any of you were present, at the last meeting that they had on that particular subject, was that as far as the access off of Lely Boulevard, as it exists, I believe it was unanimous, and those that spoke out were very eminently opposed to changing anything off of Lely Boulevard. In other words, they wanted to keep the entrance on the Collier side exactly where it is at the present time. Mr. Gil Mueller: Why would they have wanted that, Mrs. Ward? Why 30 would they have wanted that entrance as it exists now, to continue on? That was what Dr. Eisenbud, who appeared here to criticise. Mrs. Ward: Well we came in while he was speaking, so I really don' t know what he has said. Mr. Gil Mueller: Maybe you would like to see a copy of his a. . . Mr. Dave Ward: Yes. I think I can answer his question Marge, if you will. I believe that it was discussed. And when it was mentioned that the Lely entryway should have a left turn lane and traffic light there. There is a point of law by the State DOT that you can' t have another stop light on top of that one. So, they couldn't do that. So, they just. . . They wanted to keep it so they were sure they wanted to have an entrance to your park. I mean you wouldn' t have an entrance to your park. See my reasoning. Chairman Kim Kobza: Well, I think that what's happened here, is this. The County Commission did act in the right, and I caught part of that discussion. The framework is a public initiative and a staff initiative asking us to consider some alternatives as recommendations to the Board which essentially do the same the thing, in their eyes at least. Or, may do the same thing in their eyes as the Lely entrance by restricting what the Lely people can do coming out of Lely boulevard situation. So, they've got to come back to us, and as I said, we'll have a special meeting, or It'll be our monthly meeting. Mrs. Ward: The Board of Commissioners has been advised, I may be repeating something that he said, because I was reading this instead. but, part of the PUD, the Lely Development bid with the County, was that they were to at the time a stoplight was installed at Lely Boulevard, they were saposed to pick up part of the tab of that, and also to pay for a left turn lane, and if they put a traffic signal or a turn lane in someplace else, then the County Tax Payers have to pay the full amount, where as Lely is saposed to pay it. Chairman Kim Kobza: I think you did miss that part of the conversation which was Lely will pay for the signal and the turn lane. Mrs. Ward: But, if you put an entrance someplace else into the County Park, then you could have the traffic backed up all the way down the road, whereas if everybody goes in and out where the traffic signal happens to be, you keep the traffic moving along the road. Chairman Kim Kobza: I think what would help there, is what Mr. Archibald's presentation was. When he comes back again, I would very much urge you to participate in that conversation because he had a very technical discussion that I thought was worthwhile. Mr. Dave Ward: OK. There is one thing when they were talking a little bit. I just had one question that the Agreement between Lely and the County is different. It's aside from the Agreement with the State, and the Preserve. There's saposed to be a traffic lane provided for the public. 31 Chairman Kim Kobza: Mr. Ward, not to cut you off, but, I understand that there were multiple Agreements and we're not going to resolve r those issues today. Believe me! So, if you could just bare with me. When this issue of this intersection comes back before us, I would very much encourage you to attend and help us in that conversation. Mr. Murdo Smith: I will contact them personally. Chairman Kim Kobza: Mr. Smith will give you and Mrs. Ward a call to make sure that you have a copy of the Agenda, and the opportunity to attend. OK? Mr. Dave Ward: Fine! Understood! Chairman Kim Kobza: Thank you very much. We're going be fairly late today, so I wanted to move on in the Agenda. (5 minute break) B. USER FEES/BEACH PARKING: Mr. Murdo Smith: At the last meeting, you had requested that I contact the County Manager in either memo or directly and ask him as a direction that this Board should take regarding beach parking issues and so forth. I did talk to the County Manager last week and his recommendation was that he would like to check to see that the full Commission voted on having you as a Task Force to review the Beach Parking issue, prior to you going ahead and starting. His recommendation was to wait until he gets back to us, and he can direct x us on what he wants the Board to persue. If you want to discuss it today you can, however if you just want to move on, it's fine with me, it's up to you Kim, and the Board. I'm sure the County Manager will get back to Martha Skinner relatively soon. Chairman Kim Kobza: Historically there have been maybe three camps of thought, if you will on user fees at the beach parks. OK. (1) One has been that we charge no fees. That the beach should be free, and for the benefit of everybody, with free and open access to it. Like our community parks. We have open access to those. So that's been one line of thought. (2) The second line of thought has been we should charge admission fees, which are equal to our cost of operations of the beach facility. In other word, we take that cost, and we should at least break even. The operations of the park should not cost us more that what we raise in revenue at park facilities. I think historically, that's what we've at least tried to do from a philisophical basis, not that we cheat, but that's what we try to do. OK. So that's the second line of thought. (3) The third alternative which I think the Productivity Report leans toward a little bit, is that you should charge what the market will bear for those facilities. In other words that the beach park facilities be a money maker to the extent that they can subsidize other park operations. The example of the State park charging $3.50 and us charging $1.00 a car is that example to the extreme. So, the Productivity Report people would probably say, you go to the $3.50 number and be competive with the y,r state park. OK. So, I don' t say that's a perfect analysis, but I think 32 a correct characterization. How do the Board members feel about those different philosophies? Mr. William Clendenon: Well, my first thoughts there, is there's no such thing as a free ride. It would be ideal, if everybody could go without paying a nickle, but let's be practical. There are expenses involved. My initial inclination after reading all of this, is to go the Parking Meter route. You have a tremendous investment in buying these meters and installing them. but, on the other side of the coin, you don' t have to pay man power to collect the fee. Do we have any feel for how much Parking meters cost? Mr. Murdo Smith: They are approximately $200.00 a piece. Mr. Gil Mueller updated Mr. William Clendenon on PARAB's action of approximately a year ago, of voting for Toll Booths and against parking meters and the reasons behind that descision. (see discussion of the Minutes for April 19, 1990) After this brief update, Mr. Clendendon changed his viewpoint. Mr. Gil Mueller: The main thing that concerns me is the lack of consistency throughout the park program. Mr. William Clendenon: Agreed that there should be a consistency in fees. At one of the Budget Meetings the Commission decised to leave things the way they are for right now, and to continue to charge a dollar. Ms. Geneva Till: Number one, I think for having no fees, that's just not feasible. Since being on this Board, I've realized how expensive it is, and it's a luxury that we all love and there's no free ride. But, I don' t think it ought to be a money maker either. I like the second part. If you use the park you pay for it. Because there are people that don' t go to the beach! I love to go to the beach, and I don' t mind paying. Whatever it is, I want to go to the beach! But there are people that if it has to paid for, I don' t think it should be in the form of taxation on everybody. It should be, if you use it, you're willing to pay for it. So, I would definitly go with number two. And to make it the same all over. Mr. Murdo Smith: What the County Manager wanted to do, is to make sure the whole Board was in agreement before you go on and do that, because that can be a long lengthy discussion, if you're going to invite the public and everything. You're going to get people who agree with you and people who disagree. I think the County Manager just wanted to make sure that's what the whole Board wanted PARAB to do, raise the fees, keep them the same, or do away with them. Ms. Geneva Till: I think Neil should know, that we're green for go. Let's not put this off. 33 Chairman Kim Kobza: I'm very much of a kindred soal with Mrs. Till and I think the issue is going to be that the Productivity set cost of operation above where we previously had underst000d the cost of operation to be. So, it all depends on what you throw into that equasion. So, what I think it will come down to, is what do we view as being within the cost of operation, and do we have to raise fees to support that cost of operation. So, it might be that we have to you know. . . If we accept the Productivity Committee's report/conclusion, we probably have to add $2.00 per car fee to meet what they've defined as the cost of operation. So, that's where I wanted to start that discussion a little bit. I thing something we're going to need from you, Murdo, is do you agree with the Productivity Committee on cost of operation? What are the elements of the Cost of operation? Do we through the Beach Supervisors into that equatision? We had that discussion before. Are they throwing the Park Rangers in? We need to understand those things to be able to look at this intelligently. (End of Tape #2-A) Mr. Murdo Smith: The only place we would not be able to give you an actual count would be Barefoot Beach and possibly Vanderbilt may be a little bit off, because what we do is we count the cars and the people in the cars when they come in to the parking lots. However, at Vanterbilt you have an access area where you can get on there without going to the parking lot. So with that, we wouldn' t be able to know. But at Clam Pass and Tigertail we can give you a fairly close estimate of how many people we have there. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Well, you'll try to bring this back before us as soon as possible? Mr. Murdo Smith: As soon as I get an answer, I will let you know. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. VI. REPORTS/UPDATES: Chairman Kim Kobza: On the Report/Update List, Murdo, items of special interest on those list. Do you just want to take a run down through them? Mr. Murdo Smith: Do you just want to hit the first two you have requested, first Kim, or just go down through them? Chairman Kim Kobza: Why don' t you go through the list and we'll hit the two. A. BONITA BEACH PARK: Mr. Murdo Smith: Bonita Beach Park is. . . Chairman Kim Kobza: We've talked about that. 34 B. RECYCLING: Mr. Murdo Smith: Recycling. We should probably take that off, because that's an on-going process now. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. C. TIGERTAIL VEGETATION: Mr. Murdo Smith: Tigertail Vegetation. I've talked to Jerry Neal from the Office of Capital Projects this week, and I was expecting to be in doing some weed removal at Tigertail this week or next week. However, the State still has to give us the OK to proceed. We're in the process of doing some work at Rookery Bay. Once the state feels that we have done enough to satisfy them, then we can go ahead and remove the vegetation at Tigertail. Mr. Gil Mueller: Murdo, as you probably know, the big issue on Marco Island now is the controversy of changing of the regulations as the Residents Beach. The second issue at this time is the condition of Tigertail Beach. Not only the quality of the water, but the continued existence of that vegetation. Quite frankly it's gotten to be a laughing matter, it really has. I'm reflecting what I hear. People have lost confidence in the promises that this will be taken care of, and this is going to be cleared up. Because this has been going on now for years. There's been continued promises and other than some initial removal the beach still really doesn' t look that good. People just don' t believe what is being promised them anymore, and I can understand that. I just wonder wether the liaison between the County and the DER. What exactly are they doing? Are they pushing these people? Why can' t we expedite this? This has been going on for years and has gotten to be ridiculous. Mr. Murdo Smith: One of the conditions in the permit that was received from the DER Gil, was to do the mitigation at Rookery Bay first and then they will give us permission to remove the vegetation. It's been raining quite a bit down on Marco at Rookery Bay, and I guess the area where they were mitigating, they had some problems with the muck, and so forth and vehicles couldn' t get in. But, they're really going at it now. Mr. Gil Mueller: So, what you're saying is that we continue to be at the mercy of the DER and when they get around to doing this in their good slow time, why then we have to coorelate our efforts. That's really what it boils down to, isn' t it? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Once they give us the OK to go ahead, we will do it as soon as we can. Mr. Gil Mueller: But, can they just continue to procrastinate and take their time and do it in whatever speed and fashion they want to, and we have to stand idelly by and accept that? Is that the way things are? Mr. Murdo Smith: It's a condition of the permit. But, hopefully it 35 should be within. . . Mr. Gil Mueller: People don' t believe it anymore. They just say, "Yes. We've heard that song and dance so many times before, we don' t think anything's ever going to happen. " and we're loosing people at Tigertail. They're leaving. They come their with their kids, and they look at the water, they smell the water, and the walk away. That's not the direct problem that we're discussing as far as the vegetation is concerned. It's and allied problem. It's really too bad! It's a disaster! Chairman Kim Kobza: So, how long will it take for this mitigation? Mr. Murdo Smith: I don' t really have a set date, Kim. Mr. Gil Mueller: Who is the liaison? Jerry Neal? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes Chairman Kim Kobza: Do you have any other questions about Tigertial. Mr. Gil Mueller: No. It's ridiculous! D. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING: Mr. Murdo Smith: We're in the process of getting some estimates from Engineers to see how much it would cost to do some designs and so forth additional parking down there. Once we get those designs, we'll get with Real Property to see if the State will give us the OK to acquire some additional land down there for parking. We're looking at possibly going to the south side of the ramp and adding anywhere from like twenty cars for parking down there. Mr. Gil Mueller: Have we approached the State on that? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. We've written some letters to the State and the State seems to be in agreement with our request. It's just that we've got to get some plans done, and you know, the cost of those, and so forth. Work that out as far as budgetary concerns. Mr. Gil Mueller: No possibility of that materializing for this coming season I bet? Mr. Murdo Smith: No sir. The big thing we'll have their is the permitting. Mr. Gil Mueller: I was thinking of Caxambas Boat Ramp down there, Murdo. This quesiton occured to me the other day. How do we know, for example, that the concessionaire at Caxambas is giving us a fair shake. How do we know that we are getting "X" percentage of his gross. I know we get a flat fee. And that applies to any of our concessionaires. Mr. Murdo Smith: We get daily cash register receipts which are 36 0 audited on a monthly basis. They are given to Finance, Finance reviews them, and then they audit them every once in a while. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Any other questions for 951 Boat Ramp? E. POOLS: Mr. Murdo Smith: We're in the process of starting up the design again of the pool for this facility. Like I've said in the past, it's reduced from an Olympic Pool to what they call a competitive type pool now, which will be a 25 meter by 25 yard. We're looking at putting in a slide, and a possibly a zero depth area so that people can walk into the pool. So it'll be like a recreational, competitive type pool for both people. Ms. Geneva Till: Are there any times entered into that? Mr. Murdo Smith: The time frame is that we're saposed to be starting construction this budget year, 1991/92, on that facility. Chairman Kim Kobza: I'm concerned about the design fees. Are they utilizing the prior design? How much more was left to do? Mr. Murdo Smith: Quite a bit was left to do. Kim, they had basically just done some research into what types of gutters and so forth are going to be used, and they've just done that. 0 Chairman Kim Kobza: Do we pay them hourly? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. It's and hourly fee. When they went into the contract they gave an hourly rate plus they gave us an overall for the whole project for the Phase 2. But it's based on hourly rates and how long they think they would spend on it. Chairman Kim Kobza: Is there a percentage component of that design? Mr. Murdo Smith: Completed? Chairman Kim Kobza: Right! Mr. Murdo Smith: I believe it would be about ten percent. Chairman Kim Kobza: Did the design costs decrease when we decreased the size? Mr. Murdo Smith: I think it will. I've haven' t discussed that with them yet. Chairman Kim Kobza: In other words, you know we were going to design an almost two million dollar facility, now we're going to design a million and a half dollar facility. So, are design fees in that a hundred and fifty thousand dollars? 37 Mr. Murdo Smith: No. I can' t give the exact cost, but it's a lot less than that. It was not 10 percent of that figure. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. I want to be careful on our consulting and design fees because that's such a sensative issue in the County right now. Because it makes good business sense too, you know. For that matter, I think we have an obligation to watch the Tax Payers money. OK. F. VANDERBILT BEACH ACCESSES & PARKING: No discussion. G. COMMUNITY CENTERS: Mr. Murdo Smith: They're moving right along. The substantial completion dates are the middle of November. They will probably not be at final completion until mid-December. Chairman Kim Kobza: What has been the construction period on the North Naples Center. All three of them were started pretty much the same time. Mr. Murdo Smith: The North Naples one will be the first one to be complete. Chairman Kim Kobza: From beginning to end, how long did it take to build that? Mr. Murdo Smith: Six months. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. So, we're not having our November at the Community Center. OK Mr. Murdo Smith: No. Chairman Kim Kobza: Any other questions on the Community Centers? Ms. Geneva Till: That's North Naples, East Naples, and . . . Mr. Murdo Smith: . . .and Immokalee. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Are staffing for those is going to begin in January or is it going to begin in June? Mr. Murdo Smith: We have put the request in for the additional staff that we need at the present time. The other positions, the Assistant Park Program Supervisors, they are still frozen until the County Manger opens them up. C 38 1 H. FRANK E. MACKLE JR. PARK BUILDING EXPANSION: Chairman Kim Kobza: Is that completed yet? Mr. Murdo Smith: Not the final punch list. We have to have a final metting down there. There's 10 or so items to be completed. Mr. Gil Mueller: Who is the liaison for the County that deals with the Contractor? Is that Bill Flynn? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Mr. Gil Mueller: He works with Heyward Boyce? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Mr. Gil Mueller: Because there a number of things down there that have not been completed. They have been standing that way and staying that way for months, and nothing's been done about it. Little things. It would take someone a couple hours to complete them. In other words, the thing is 98.5% done. I just don' t know why the Contractor doesn' t send somebody down there. Bill Flynn is the guy that would be responsible for that? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Bill Flynn is the one that the County has overseeing the project for our Department. Mr. Gil Mueller: OK. I'll have to do something about that, because that's ridiculous. The panals are lopsided, the baseboard on two sides and then on one side they ran a two by six. I don' t know why in the world they ever did anything like that. The tile is cracked. OK. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Any other questions on that item? I. CONKLIN POINT BOAT RAMP: Mr. Murdo Smith: I don' t have any updates from the last time. Chairman Kim Kobza: Are they still speaking with Westinghous? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: This is really pushing our Construction schedule back, isn' t it? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: Do we have the funds to begin Construction at Conklin Point? So, the whole discussion is delaying initiation of construction at this point. Do you know if we have the money to do it? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Mr. Murdo Smith explained where the location of Conklin Point is, to Mr. William Clendenon. 39 J. LISTING OF DONATED PROPERTY: Chairman Kim Kobza: Have we received anything. Mr. Murdo Smith: Nothing on that yet, . . . K. IMMOKALEE CHILD CARE CENTER: Mr. Murdo Smith: . . .we haven' t heard anything on Immokalee Child Care. . . L. CLAM PASS PARK: Mr. Murdo Smith: . . .and the Clam Pass Park we had the discussion at the last meeting, and I have not heard of any updates on that. I would like to add a couple of things, Kim, if I could. VII. NEW BUSINESS: Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Let's do the Parks and Recreation Budget Submission. A. PARKS & RECREATION BUDGET SUBMISSION: Mr. Gil Mueller: I noticed here, there was $10,000.00 for landscaping at Tommie Barfield. Where are they going to put landscaping there? Mr. Murdo Smith: We're trying to landscape some around the tennis courts and down along the front of the road were we not Gary. Mr. Gary Franco: Correct. The landscaping also includes sodding. Mr. Gil Mueller: Isn' t that School property? Mr. Murdo Smith: It is School property, yes. But, we use it. We have the tennis courts and the ballfield on there, and we do have a responsibility to keep it looking nice. Mr. Gil Mueller: OK. The other item is Tennis & Basketball Improvements under media and Racquet Club to the far right, there's $69,000.00 now I'm not under the impression that we have that much money. Do we? Mr. Murdo Smith: No sir. The tennis and basketball court improvements - there's some other funds for other courts throughout the County that need to be resurfaced also (i.e. Coconut Circle, Poinciana) . Mr. Gil Mueller: It includes other facilities too. I see. OK. At Frank Mackie Community Park I noticed there was a dividing wall for the new addition for $25,000. What's happened on that? Mr. Murdo Smith: We did receive a cost estimate from the Contractor. Bill Flynn is checking it out to make sure that it will be sufficiently 40 supported down there by the beam and so forth, that they were planning on installing. He's talking with some Architects and so forth to see if it's going to be OK. Mr. Gil Mueller: But, we're going to do it though? Mr. Murdo Smith: The direction that I was given, was that when we get the price, and it's all figured out, go back to the Board and they will let me know if I can have the money for it or not. Mr. Gil Mueller: OK. I just wondered if it was still in the mill. B. VANDERBILT BEACH TURN-A-ROUND: Chairman Kim Kobza: You received a copy of my letter. Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Did you receive a copy of Commissioner Volpe's Memorandum? Mr. Murdo Smith: NO. Chairman Kim Kobza: OK. Just so the Board's aware. I sent a letter to the Manager and each of the Commissioners, asking them to expedite the Vanderbilt Beach Turn-A-Round excavation. Commissioner Volpe has sent a memorandum to the same effect to the County Manager's office, and you should receive a copy of that hopefully together with the recommendation that we made. That will help to move along that turn-a-round restoration. Mr. Murdo Smith: When I had talked to the County Manager, I'm in the process right now of getting a legal opinion from the County Attorney if we could use the Impact Fees to do that project. Once I get that, if there's a yes, we will proceed with it. C. EXPIRATION OF 3 PARAB MEMBERS TERMS: Mr. Murdo Smith: There's some PARAB Member times or tenures that are expiring at the end of this year. I believe that you have received a letter from Sue Filson as to whether you would wish to reapply and I just wanted to make sure that you knew when the deadline was. I believe it's by November first. Ms. Geneva Till: I've already returned mine. Mr. William Clendenon: I did too. I wrote to Commissioner Volpe, I wanted to be reappointed. Mr. Murdo Smith: I think, Kim, you're the other one also. Chairman Kim Kobza: Right! I got a letter. Mr. William Clendenon: To be honest with you, I didn' t realize that I 41 was accepting an unfilled position. When the letter came in, I was really amazed! Will you be advised who they select to be the members? Mr. Murdo Smith: What ususally happens, Mr. Clendenon, is the same way that you were put on the board. If there's usually other members or other people that apply, and the BCC wishes to retain you and Mrs. Till, that's what usually happens. We retain them, and tell the people that the existing person has considered another term. If there's someone who doesn' t do it, we bring these applications to the Board here. The PARAB Board reviews them, and then they bring the people in and interview them, and they make their recommendations to the County Board. D. SPECIAL MEETING SCHEDULED ON NOVEMBER 30, 1991: Mr. Murdo Smith: I would just like to remind you of the meeting next week. That's on the Barefoot Beach Management Plan. Chairman Kim Kobza: Can we limint the length of that meeting somewhat. Now, you're asking the Conservancy to come in? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. I'm sure there's going to be some people. Mrs. Ward will be here and those people who are interested in the Preserve will be here. We should have a little discussion. Chairman Kim Kobza: If we say if we can do that in an hour and a half or so, is that feasible? Do you think it'll take longer than that? Mr. Gary Franco: I think the presentation, Mr. Chairman, will take about a half hour to fourty five minutes. Which will leave us fourty five minutes for discussion. It may not even take that long. It's pretty comprehensive and simple plan. Mr. Murdo Smith: It's just the Management plan, and what we're going to be doing with the beach down there. Chairman Kim Kobza: Are there any other problems. . . E. REGISTRY'S PETITION LAST MONTH: Mr. Gil Mueller: Last month during the discussion concerning the Registry's Petition to enlarge the facility at Clam Pass and the other things that they wanted to do there. I questioned whether or not there were exceptions in the Park and Recreation District to serving alcohol. You said that the Golden Gate Community Park had this priveledge, depending upon certain circumstances. The Attorney, Mr. McMackin, gave me some literature to read. Which I did. I've found that there are many ramifications to doing this, and many stipulations. Murdo, what exactly is the situation as far as that Community Park is concerned? They are referring to the one over here on Golden Gate Blvd. are they not? 42 Mr. Murdo Smith: The Community Center. Yes. Mr. Gil Mueller: What exactly is this situation as far as the Parks and Recreation Department's involvement in that? Is it an integral of you whole operation, or some other stipulations that exempts it from certain conditions? Mr. Murdo Smith: They're under our Department. OK. However, they are under a seperate taxing District which basically pays for all the operations and so forth over at that center. It is a County facility. The BCC run it. So, they are theoretically under our jurisdiction. They have their own Advisory Board that deals with all their operations over there. Ms. Geneva Till: People don' t understand that. Mr. Gil Mueller: I don' t think I still understand it to tell you the truth. In other words, what is the difference between this facility for example, and that facility? Mr. Murdo Smith: That's under a special taxing district. Mr. Gil Mueller: Why is it under a Special Taxing District? Ms. Geneva Till: Yes. That's what I want to know too. Because I helped pay for that, voted for it, and I thought it was ours in Golden Gate until last month. I didn' t know. I've wanted it under this. When I was on that Advisory Board, I wanted it here, but to know we do it ourselves. We're no part of the County. But the people thing we're not. Mr. Gil Mueller: How did that happen? Mr. Murdo Smith: Back in 1977, when they built that facility, the tax payers of Golden Gate voted for it. I can' t remember how it was handled. I can' t if the County loaned them the money to build it right off the bat, and then their taxes come back and pay for it. I really don' t know Gil. Mr. Gil Mueller: The tax payers of Golden Gate paid for the thing in it's entirety? Ms. Geneva Till: Yes! Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Ms. Geneva Till: There's four square miles there of people that paid for that. I think it's four. I've paid about $45.00 a year all these years for that Community Center thinking it was ours. Mr. Gary Franco: Yes. They have their own budget, and everything else. `.,r Mr. Gil Mueller: They have their own budget, they run it themselves, 43 and they paid for it. Yet, the Collier County Parks & Recreation Department owns it. Mr. Murdo Smith: No. The BCC own the property. It is a County facility. Mr. Gil Mueller: It's a really a weird setup! Ms. Geneva Till: Yes it is! Mr. Gil Mueller: And somehow there has been a stipulation, or a condition established, and ordinance I presume, that allows them, under certain circumstances to serve liquor down there? Mr. Murdo Smith: Yes. Mr. Gil Mueller: So, in other words, I have to presume from that, that Mr. McMackin's illustration is rather an exception rather than the rule. In other words, I don' t see how we can use that facility to condone serving liquor in other parks when it's totally an exception to the rest of the County Parks and Recreation sites and facilities. Well that's a question that I'll have to answer myself. Mr. Murdo Smith: I guess that would be more or less a legal question, really. I don' t think I could give you an answer. Mr. Gil Mueller: I don' t think that's a good illustration frankly, but I wondered. I still don' t understand how something like that can be run, or how it can evolve. But, I guess that's history. Chairman Kim Kobza: Any other questions or comments or anything? (No response) VIII. ADJOURNMENT: Ms. Geneva Till motioned for adjournment. Mr. William Clendenon seconded the motion. With no further discussion the motion passed with a 4-0 vote. Meeting was adjourned. MS:rtd:003824 I I 44