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Minutes 08/28/1991 R Parks & Recreation Advisory Board ( PARAB ) Minutes August 28 , 1991 MINUTES PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office Naples, Florida Wednesday, August 28, 1991 PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman ABSENT: Ms. Cherryle Thomas Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice Chairman Ms. Geneva Till I. CALL TO ORDER: Chairman Kobza called the meeting to order at 2:05 p.m. II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG: III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Ms. Geneva Till moved to accept the minutes. Mr. Gil Mueller questioned the minutes of the last PARAB Meeting pertaining to the Rangers. Mr. Gil Mueller requested an almost verbatum copy of the PARK RANGER discussion from the minutes of the PARAB meeting of 07/24/91 . Chairman Kobza suggested to approve the minutes with the exception of what appears as sub-paragraph upper case C on page four. In other words, leave that out, and we'll approve them as they apprear, but for that one paragraph. Then, when PARAB is provided with full discussion of that paragraph, we can incorporate that into the Minutes. Ms. Geneva Till, changed her motion to exclude C. Park Ranger to be more fully covered and reflected in the minutes pending approval of that section. Mr. Gil Mueller seconded the motion. Chairman Kobza, "There's a motion and a second for approval of the minutes as presented of the meeting of Wednesday, July 24, 1991 , with the exception of that material which appears under sub-paragraph, upper case C of page 4 for which we're going to have a fully expanded narative of those minutes and that discussion for our review at our next meeting, which will be our September meeting. Is there any discussion on the motion? There being no discussion, all in favor signify by saying I. That approval passes unanimously. " (with a 3-0 vote) IV. REQUESTS FOR DISCUSSION - SPECIFIC UPDATE ITEMS: A. WILSON MILLER -- GARY FRANCO: The Wilson Miller Contract. We currently have a contract with Wilson Miller for the design of our phases for the Community Parks. However, that is called Professional Services Contract. In the course of that Professional Services Contract, it is sometimes necessary to have some Contract or Construction Management. What was requested was a change order to the contract for Construction Management in the amount of $36,000 to Wilson Miller. Basically it is for the three Community Centers (Immokalee, East Naples, and North Naples) . We are committed now to that expenditure with Wilson Miller. The discussion continued. Chairman Kobza commented that he is concerned about being/getting locked in with a single firm, be it for architectural, engineering, etc. work. He feel's there's a real value in continuity, but also doesn' t want to be so beholding to one Firm, or Architect, or Engineer. He would rebid that contract every year, or every couple 1 years if it was to do over again. Mr. Gil Mueller questioned whether to have in-house people capable of doing that, and didn' t think it necessary to hire additional people to perform that service. Mr. Gil Mueller asked Gary Franco for his opinion on what he thinks should be done. Gary Franco, "My opinion is that we have committed to Wilson Miller for the design of the Community Parks, whether it's Phase I, or Phase II. I think that we should go ahead and adjust the change order to the contract. Chairman Kobza commented that he doesn' t want to be going and making expenditures for things that are not close enough in our time line where we know we're going to construction on for Design Fees. The pool is one example. Mr. Gil Mueller motioned that PARAB recommend to the Board of County Commissioners, that those moneys be allocated and used according to pure specifications there and as they relate to Wilson Miller. However, with the additional recommendation that in the future that they consider other firms, electrical , engineering, architectural , etc. and consider them on a bidding basis. Ms. Geneva Till seconded the motion, the motion passed with a 3-0 vote. B. RENTAL POLICY: Lawrence Stillwell, from New York, requested the use the Frank Mackle Park facility for an Antique and Collectible Show. People would have to pay Admission to get in, and then if they so wish, buy items for sale at that show. The question was whether or not the Collier County Parks and Recreation Departmenbt is going to look at that kind of possible revenue generation. Presently, our Department's policies state that if you're going to rent an inside area and you are a for-profit group, the fee is $30.00 an hour. If you rent an outside area the fee would be $30.00 per hour. Mr. Stillwell has expressed an interest in renting the park for three days. In December of 1991, and in March of 1992. He is looking at a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. The times of shows are approximately 8:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Mr. Gil Mueller commented it would be acceptable, provided there was some definite stipulations, regulations that he had to adhere to as far as setting up booths, traffic management, etc. Staff commented it has far reaching implications. As read in the Executive Summary, we're trying to prohibit the use of County Parks for profit organizations for the sale of related, and to prohibit charging admission fees for any profit event held at a County facility. Chairman Kobza commented that he would not necessarily be opposed to a situation where you had a Parks sponsored Art Show where things were sold, or a Parks Sponsored Antique Show for that matter. Because there's a component that furthers the cultural awareness of the public. Staff commented that this might open the door to have flea markets and everything else in the parks. A definite understanding of what would be allowed is needed. Staff doesn' t want any fees and charges to restrict the use of our parks by other residents of the County. It was suggested that Mr. Stillwell use the large open space just north of the buildings, set up there, and not utilize the main building or the covered racquetball courts. That way, it wouldn' t interfer with any scheduled activities that might be planned. We're addressing charging admission for functions for a profit organization within the park boundaries. Chairman Kobza commented, the Policy ought to be that we're not absolutely prohibiting Concessionaires in our parks, but that the policy have specific criteria for when that happens. So it happens when you believe that there's a recreational value to it, that's a staff determination. In other words, it doesn' t interfere with the general public's use and enjoyment of the park. I think that to be safe we really need to have criteria for when you make those kinds of descisions. Mr. Gil Mueller motioned to recommend to the Board of County Commissioners, that they consider Mr. Lawrence Stillwell's request with the following stipulations. (1)That it be restricted to the open area, primarily north 2 of the two main buildings, not to include the enclosed building, and/or the basketball court. (2) That there not be an admission fee, or a general admiission fee charged to get into the park property including within the confines of the park on the basis that it would establish a questionable precident. However if they want to run the Antique Show, not to consider a percentage but our basic hourly rate of $30.00, then we could set up some type of fee basis with that, and people could come in here and buy what they want to buy. Chairman Kobza, "As I understand it, your motion Gil, is then for the specific application and also for the adoption of a policy. Is that correct?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "I hadn' t included that, but yes, I'm glad that you reminded me. " Chairman Kobza, " . . .and the adoption of a policy" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes, yes, include that. " Chairman Kobza, "That's a motion. Do we have a second on the motion?" Ms. Geneva Till seconded, and no further discussion, the motion passed unanimously with a 3-0 vote. C. INTER-LOCAL AGREEMENT: This is on Bonita Beach/Lee County Joint Parcel of land to be developed, and is being considered tomorrow. It has already been adopted by the Board of Lee County Commissioners. Basically, what it provides is a financial obligation of $60,000 to our parcel of land up there for improvements. Lee County is baring the brunt of the project, having restroom facilities, parking areas. The Board of County Commissioners in Lee County yesterday, has adopted that policy, and asking our Board to go ahead with it. The biggest part of the development is going on the Lee County side. The development is to take place according to the same plan that PARAB originally reviewed. We would be responsible for the maintenance of our section, and they would be responsible for the maintenance of their section. The fees and charges issue was to be descided later by both boards, if in fact that issue ever came up. That is not addressed in the Inter-Local Agreement. A Beach Parking Fee Policy would have to be one consistent Policy through both boards. Chairman Kobza commented that in this binding Agreement it would be prudent to have some verbage about how we're going to descide whether there would be a fee, and if so, how much that fee is. We don' t want to wait until after the fact, and the Agreement doesn' t address it. The caveat is, there must be a mechanism for setting a fee structure. Ms. Geneva Till commented that PARAB should do it soon, and it should be one of our primary considerations, and that we do put that statement in there, as our recommendation. PARAB did previously recommed the expenditure of $60,000. Chairman Kobza commented that he saw two problems with the Agreement. (1) I mentioned the fee issues to be addressed. (2) The other thing, there should be an incorporation of the site plan by reference to the Agreement, so that it's clear what Lee County is doing and it's clear what Collier County is doing. Chairman Kobza, I think we do have to keep in mind here, we did recommend to the BCC to spend the $60,000 at one point. I recommend approval of the agreement subject to three items. One is the inclusion of a section which provides the mechanics for establishing first whether there is a fee, if so, second, how much that fee is and how it's going to be charged, collected, and dispursed. Secondly I believe the agreement should incorporate the Site Plan, because I think it's important that there be a clear definition of who's responsibilities are what. OK? Thirdly, I think that there needs to be a section more explicitly dealing with the operational responsibilities of the park. In other words to what extent does Collier County have responsibilities and operations? What are our costs of operation? How are we going to bear those costs? The operational agreement is mentioned as an operations manual , but I'm not talking about the manual , I'm talking about the policy. So, the third item, which I'm on is putting some type of cap in place or having a clear understanding on: What our operating costs are, How 3 they're incurred, How they're paid, and so on. OK. I think, as a matter of policy, that needs to be in this agreement, and fourth the costs not exceed $60,000 in accordance with our previous recommendations to the BCC. That's a motion. " Mr. Gil Mueller seconded the motion. Both Lee County and Collier County Maintenance staff will be involved in that manual. " Chairman Kobza, "Understand, that the manual is different than the policy. with no further discussion the motion passed unanimously with a 3-0 vote. D. AMENDMENT TO CLAM PASS UTILITIES: Wilson Miller had the original contract for Clam Pass Utilities, and it was submitted to the state. The state had some revisions. The anticipated amount will be $6,000.00. Staff asked the Board for a recommendation to support that project. It's the relating to those utilities towards the beach path out there. Apparently there was some problems with the easement. So the easement had to be revised, and also the drawings have to be revised to reflect those type of revisions. It is an hourly rate, you have time, materials, and labor. It's just an estimated number of hours. Not to exceed $6000. Chairman Kobza, "The hard thing for me, is it's difficult to authorize expenditures for professional services without knowing the exact scope of work. If it's a few drawings, six thousand dollars is a lot of money, I mean to exixting drawings, because these are now on Computers. If I understand it right, they're on CAD (Computer Aided Design System) . A letter of submittal was provided to staff for the scope of services for that project. Chairman Kobza, "Just kind of for future reference, I would be more comfortable if I understood that and saw the letter, etc. " This project has been hanging around maybe a year and a half when Mr. O'Donnell was here. So staff would like to proceed. Chairman Kobza, "It's utilities that run out to the Concessions and all of that on Clam Pass, which would impact our ability to raise revenue. So, I'm sure we'd want to try to get done before season if possible. " Chairman Kobza, "I think the other positive thing is, now we're seeing material on Clam Pass Utilities project. Remember what it first went through? It went through Engineering, and it wasn' t brought to us. " Ms. Geneva Till moved to proceed with the expenditure (amendment) however with the stipulation that PARAB would like information on man hours involved, and expenditures, etc. We will go ahead and accept this now, so as not to be late. Mr. Gil Muellers seconded the motion. The motion passed unanimously with a 3-0 vote. V. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS: A. INTERVIEW FOR PARAB DISTRICT X44 (CITY OF NAPLES AREA): Staff had an application submitted by Mr. William Clendenon to be recommended for the PARAB District 4 seat. PARAB interviewed Mr. William Clendenon for the PARAB position stressing the importance of being at every meeting possible. Ms. Geneva Till , "I'll motion to welcome Mr. Clendenon, whole heartedly, and glad to have your here. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "to recommend to the BCC that they accept Mr. Clendenon's application. " Mr. Gil Mueller seconded. Chairman Kobza, "OK. Motion by Mrs. Till, Seconded by Mr. Mueller, the recommendation of acceptance of Mr. Clendenon's application to the Park and Recreation Advisory Board to the County Commission. " The motion passed unanimously with a 3-0 vote. CONKLIN POINT: Tom Donnegan from the Office of Capital Projects Management gave a presentation and 4 an update on this project including, information on the rezone. Westinghouse is requesting land for a private drive. All the PARAB Members express their concern for boat ramps that are not hard to get in an out of. Tom Donegan, "Right now we're on hold, so until we get a zone contract. Do we need any action on that, or is that just an update?" Gary Franco, "That was just an update & a presentation to keep the Board informed. " IV. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS (continued): E. COLLIER COUNTY RACQUET CLUB: Tom Donnegan is also spearheading the proposed renovations for court three, four, and five. Tom Donegan, "We put together a scope of services as to what we wanted to do on the Racquet Club, and we have continuing contracts with several engineering firms. One of which is Gee & Jensen. Now we're ready to take a work order to the Board. There's five courts there. Courts one and two, we weren' t planning on doing anything with. Those courts I guess are reported to be in substantial shape and not needed repair as far as the courts themselves are concerned. We do plan to look at the drainage for courts one and two. Courts, three, four, and five are exhibiting surface cracking, and ponding, and uneven playing surfaces. First of all we're going to make an overall drainage review of how the water gets off of that site. Because, they say when they have heavy rains to the east of the site, the drainage already fills up and water spills back onto the site that we have. We're also going to have a geo-tech guy come out and do some borings there to see what's going on, on courts three, four, and five. There may be deteriorating trees beneath the surface. Also, we're going to come up with a cost of repair to three, four, and five. We're aLso going to ask the consultant to come up with a design cost of play courts on three, four, and possibly five. So, we'll be able to compare what we want to do dollar wise. Whether we repair the courts that are there, or whether it's best to replace those courts with clay courts. We're going to come up with construction drawings and specifications for the repair/resurfacing of three, four, and five. They're going to provide the permitting for surface improvements and construction drawings and any improvements needed on the drainage, and also provide services, inspections during the times the work is done. We're hoping to get this work order on the BCC Agenda on Tuesday, so it can be acted upon the following Tuesday. Mr. Tom Donegan will check with the the Realty Department and see if they've got a drawing to see if there's enough room to put those in, and of course, if there is, and we're going clay courts, I guess we could find out what that would cost and also lights. RESULTS OF THE SURVEY: (see attached) COST BREAKDOWN: Staff presented a cost breakdown (see attched) for PARAB's review. We will bring it back to the Board again about fees and charges for the Racquet Club. No action was taken. V. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS: C. BOAT RAMP AT GOLDEN GATE CANAL: Gary Franco, "Mr. Chariman, we've had a request from the BCC to pursue the possibility of constructing a fresh water boat ramp along the Golden Gate Canal. Now that is within the Growth Management Plan. How that all came about, is. . . There have been some citizens in the North Naples areas which are bass fisherman, and they are having trouble launching their boats to access the canals and 5 waterways. Presently there is no fresh water boat ramp. So, we're asking the Real Property Department to explore the possibility of us purchasing some land. We would like some Board direction, approval, or recommendation on that specific subject. They didn't authorize staff to do it, they just asked us to explore the possibility. If that could be built, and if it was in the Growth Management Plan? At this time we have no dollar figure set for construction or anything like that. That's all got to be taken into consideration. If we don' t own a piece of property, we're going to have to go out and buy a piece of property. They're exploring the possibility that someone in the records had said that we may own a piece of property somewhere on 65th and 64th and 65th over here in the estates. However, I can' t confirm that. Mr. Gil Mueller, "Now Gary, can you explore that and find out whether we do and also come up with some cost figures on that?" Chairman Kobza, "Yes, I think I want to get a feeling for what the real need is. You know, I don' t have any way to make an informed descision on that. How many people would use it? What the real need is and also need, and how it relates to other programs. D. CONCESSIONS AT BOAT RAMPS: On the August 14th Workshop, the BCC had authorized staff to pursue in selected locations, namely 951 boat ramp and Bayview, to use Concessionaires at those sites. Whethere it be Bait and Tackle shops, gasoline, or whatever. To do that, we would also institute a Boat Launch Fee. It would be very similar to Caxambas. To where we get all Boat Launch Fees. The BCC has authorized us to do that, and and a reminder to the Board, I think they've also authorized Fees and Charges, and Beach realated activities to be reviewed by this Board here. So, they're directing us to explore that possibility of putting the Concession areas in place. At 951 there is a parcel of land that DER owns that we're trying to get. We have to come up with a Management Plan. Mr. Donnegan is going to work on that for us, and we will bring that to this Board. Gary Franco, "We would like a motion or a recommendation from this board for us to say yes we will pursue that possibility if we do have any RFP's, which is Request For Proposals for Concessionaires to use those facilities. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. Let's see then. I'd like to make a motion that we recommmend to the County Commissioners that staff persue information relative to the Concessionaires at the Boat Ramp facilities anD PARTICULARLY TO EXPEDITE, IF possible the investigation into whether or not the State Department's in on 951 . Is that what's necessary? Is that what you need basically?" Ms. Geneva Till, " . . .and Bayview. " Chairman Kobza, "We had a motion, on the Concessions, is it three boat ramps? So, do we have a second on that?" Ms. Geneva Till seconded, with no furthere discussionb, the motion passed with a 3-0 vote. E. DESIGNATED SWIMMING AREAS: This pertains to Tigertail beach. Persuant to the Florida Administrative Code. We designated swimming areas for safe swimming only area at Tigertail Beach. We need direction or approval, and a public meeting from PARAB and also the BCC to persue that as part of the requirement for the Administrative Code Florida to go ahead and actually construct that. That means that there is some Engineering fees to the tune of approximately $1900 (rough figures) . Another $1900 to actually put the markers in place. The Coast Gaurd would enforce that for a designated swimming area within those confines of Tigertail beach. Ms. Geneva Till , "Oh. I'll make a motion for that. Mr. Gil Mueller seconded, and with no further discussion the motion passed with a 3-0 vote. 6 VI. REPORTS/UPDATES: A. BONITA BEACH PARK: Chairman Kobza, "We've talked about Bonita Beach Park. . . " B. RECYCLING: Chairman Kobza, " . . . the Recycling Program I assume is working in full force. " Gary Franco, "Continuing. Yes. " C. TIGERTAIL VEGETATION: Chairman Kobza, "Tigertail Vegetation. Did we get that squared up?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. I think we did. The latest I've heard at least was Thursday. Shanahan talked to Harry Huber, and Harry said that they were still in the Mitigation Process and couldn' t do anything further with the mitigation. Until Rookery was completed, they couldn' t do any more at Tigertail. Is that accurate Gary?" Gary Franco, "Correct. Until the mitigation at Rookery Bay is complete, we will not do any clearing of that Vegetation line at Tigertail. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "What are we doing at Rookery now?" Gary Franco, "I really am not aware of too much of that project, but there is some type of mitigation we have to perform to clear that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes, I know. It hasn' t started yet?" Gary Franco, "I'm not sure, Gil. I really don' t know, I can find out for you though. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Would you just find out for the next meeting?" Gary Franco, "Sure!" D. IMMOKALEE AIRPORT PARK BATHROOMS: Chairman Kobza, "Immokalee Airport Park bathrooms. Are those completed?" Gary Franco, "Those are completed. We may want to take that off of the Report/Update list. " Chairman Kobza, "Let's go ahead and do that. " E. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING: Chairman Kobza, "I believe we addressed that. Would it be safe to take that off of the Report?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, Gary's going to get some information on that. " Gary Franco, "Well, you may want to leave that on the Report list, because we will come back to you periodically with Concessionaire, and things about parking. " F. POOLS (1.5 MILLION, COMPETITIVE): Chairman Kobza, "Question. Well, in light of the BCC's action yeaterday on the YMCA, does that impact what we're going to do on the pool site?" Gary Franco, "I have nothing to indicate that. As far as I know, we're still going to try to pursue, and explore the possibility of constructing the competitive swimming pool here at a cost of 1.5 billion dollars. " Chairman Kobza, "Is that the 25 meter pool?" Gary Franco, "It's the competitive. " Chairman Kobza, "Instead of the 50 meter pool?" Gary Franco, "Correct. " G. VANDERBILT BEACH ACCESSES AND PARKING: Chairman Kobza, "Vanderbilt Beach Access, I don' t think we need to talk about. " 7 H. COMMUNITY CENTERS: Chairman Kobza, "Community Centers we're two months behind. I had eluded to it before. I had heard that there was some problem between our architectural and our engineering on that job in North Naples. " Gary Franco, "There were some, Mr. Chairman, problems with the structural design of the hip trusses located on the roofing of that facility. However, that has been resolved. That is one of those type of situations where we've talked about it before, where the Construction Management Services are required. Mr. Gil Mueller, "The trusses weren' t made?" Gary Franco, "Yes they were, but the hip, where they joined up, up there, the angle wasn' t right. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Were the trusses made according to specifications?" Gary Franco, "Yes they were. Everything was made to specifications, however, it didn' t fit. So they have to make some field adjustments. " Chairman Kobza, "Is there additional cost to that?" Gary Franco, "No" Chairman Kobza, "Not to the County?" Gary Franco, "Not to the County. " I. FOOTBALL/SOCCER FIELD IMMOKALEE: Chairman Kobza, "Football/Soccer Field Immokalee?" Gary Franco, "That project had it's final completion. We may want to take that off of the Report/Updat list. We took ownership last Thursday, and we will let the Board know when we're going to have our formal dedication for that facility. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. I really want know about that too. When that is, because the last thing in Immokalee I think they'll do, so I want to know. OK. " J. FRANK E. MACKLE JR. BUILDING EXPANSION: Chairman Kobza, "The building expansion is completed, hopefully. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. I haven' t seen it, been over there for about a week or ten days. Two things actually. For quite a number of weeks, you come into the room, on the left hand side, there was a big strip that was unpainted, and that went on for weeks, and weeks, and weeks. It's a minor thing, but I'd like to see the building a hundred percent done instead of 99. Do you know if that's ever been taken care of?" Gary Franco, "The letter that we signed was of substantial completion. They have two weeks for final completion to rectify all those little minor, unpainted finished surfaces, or peeling of paint off the walls, or any type of clean-up work in there. " K. CONKLIN POINT BOAT RAMP: Chairman Kobza, "Conklin Point Boat Ramp we've talked about. " L. LISTING OF DONATED PROPERTY: Chairman Kobza, "Listing of Donated Property, has there been any follow-up on that?" Gary Franco, "I don' t have anymore information on that on that one particular subject. " Chairman Kobza, "I do want to follow up on that, I don' t want to let it die. I think that's an important issue to have an inventory of what property that we have as Parks, are available to us in the Parks Department, so then we can make some decisions on how to use it. " M. IMMOKALEE CHILD CARE CENTER: Chairman Kobza, "Immokalee Child Care Center? What was that all about?" Gary Franco, "I have no more information on that. I'm sorry. " Chairman Kobza, "OK" 8 N. CLAM PASS PARK: Chairman Kobza, "Clam Pass Park, I think we talked about" Ms. Geneva Till, "Did we tough that up here with the Amendment for utilities at Clam Pass?" Gary Franco, "Yes we did. " VII. NEW BUSINESS: Mr. Gil Mueller, "I was going to suggest that perhaps the subject, you know, we agreed in the last meeting, that we would take these individual issues in the Productivity Study one or two depending upon their scope in each of our meetings. As we did for example, the Racquet Club and this one. I was going to suggest that User fees would probably the most likely subject matter to take up in our next meeting. Now, maybe that isn' t such a good idea. Maybe it should be something else. " Chairman Kobza, "What would you think of requesting direction from the County Board on what they would like us to do on user fees. " Chairman Kobza, "I think the request is, we're available to meet with respect to those issues of beach usage, permit, you know user fees at the beaches. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Some consistency as far as fees are concerned throughout them. " Chairman Kobza, " . . .and just request direction from them as to the scope of what they would like us to do. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think that's a good idea. " Chairman Kobza, "Do you want to make a motion?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "You make the motion. You put it nicely. " Chairman Kobza, "Mrs. Till, would you like to that effect?" Ms. Geneva Till, "I'll make a motion that we request direction from the Board of County Commissioners as to what they would like to have us consider regarding fees and usage fees for our parks. " Chairman Kobza, "Including the beaches. OK A secon to that?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think we should say, fees throughout the entire Park and Recreation Department." Chairman Kobza, "OK. I'm with you there. " Ramona Daugs, "Geneva Till motioned to request direction from the Board of County Commissioners as to what they would like to have PARAB consider on fees and usage fees throughout the entire Parks and Recreation Department. " Chairman Kobza, "I think, you know, what you're going to find is most of the issues that we're after are in the beaches for starters. Chairman Kobza, "Why don' t we leave it at user fees?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. Alright. Let's leave it that way. OK" Mr. Gil Mueller seconded the motion, with no further discussion, the motion passed with a 3-0 vote. VIII. ADJOURNMENT: Chairman Kobza, "OK. A motion to adjourn?" Ms. Geneva Till, "I so motion. " Chairman Kobza, "Motion by Mrs. Till. Second by Mr. Mueller. All in favor signify by saying I. Adjourned. " rtd:003752 9 MINUTES PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office Naples, Florida Wednesday, August 28, 1991 , 0711/ 476211"77C. PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice Chairman ` 9 gleit- Ms. Geneva Till O 9 r/' ABSENT: Ms. Cherryle Thomas I. CALL TO ORDER: Chairman Kobza called the meeting to order at 2:05 p.m. II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG: III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Chairman Kobza, "The first item on the Agenda is approval of the Minutes of July 24th. meeting. " Ms. Geneva Till , "Well , I read those carefully, and I didn' t see anything. I move that we accept the minutes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I just had one question, if I may concerning those Minutes. On page four, column C, Park Ranger. Let me preface my question by asking a question, and I'm sure Gary, or somebody here will be able to answer it for me. When we discuss these things, and particularly when we make a recommendation to the BCC, are those recommendations written up on a separate memorandum Gary, or do they simply get these minutes and read these minutes?" Mr. Gary Franco, "I believe they get the minutes and read the minutes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I've never been clear. I've been going to ask that for months. " Gary Franco, "Yes. Neil reviews all the minutes of every PARAB meeting. " The Mr. Gil Mueller, "He does?" Gary Franco, "The County Manager's Office does. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I know some of the Commissioners read them too. " Chairman Kobza, "The othere thing they do though, Gil, which I should say too, is because I've seen it. When there's and Executive Summary on a particular issue, there will be a reference in the Summary to what PARAB's action has been. " Gary Franco, "Their vote. Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "So, it gets conveyed in two ways. One throught the minutes, and one through Executive Summaries on Agenda items that the Board is taking action 1 on. " Gary Franco, "Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. I think what Gil's getting at, is how complete a picture they get of what our discussion is. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, yes. That to some extent, but I've procrastinated in asking that question, and I made a note here to find out. Now that I know, why that's pretty well satisified me. But, now to ask another question. Concerning that paragraph C, page #4, the Ranger program. We spent a considerable amount of time discussing the Ranger Program. There were a lot of comments made. As a matter of fact, I think we made a specific request to the staff to make some sort of Financial Analysis as this thing progresses so that we can make a recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners, and I noticed that the paragraph that was included in the minutes was very brief and didn' t include hardly any of the comments that were made, and wasn' t at all in detail. I think that should have been recorded, and should have been a little more lengthier. This is general, quick bypass statement as far as I'm concerned. " Chairman Kobza, "Can we do this Gil, as a suggestion? It's on tape right?" Ramona Daugs, "Yes" Chairman Kobza, "Can we expand on that paragraph? Can we go back to the tape. . . " Ramona Daugs, "I can get a copy right now, if you want. I have a detailed expanded version. I can print it out and bring it to you right now, if you'd like. " Chairman Kobza, "Would that. . . " Ramona Daugs, "It's several pages long. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Mr. Chairman, may I make a suggestion? I would like to have, if this is agreeable with the rest of the Board Members. I would like to have the minutes of that discussion included in the minutes of today. In other words we would be getting a copy of that then presumably in two or three weeks or however long it takes. I want that to be recorded. I don' t thing that's something we can skip over quite as lightly as we have. That was my only recommendation as far as the Minutes of last meeting are concerned. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. Can we approve the minutes with the exception of what appears as sub-paragraph upper case C on page four? In other words, leave that out, and we'll approve them as they apprear hear, but for that one paragraph. Then, when we're provided with full discussion of that paragraph, we can incorporate that into the Minutes, because I want to see the full thing and then approve it. " Ms. Geneva Till, "I felt that way too when I read through these. I thought well, all I did was second, or make motions, and I thought I was doing quite a lot of talking last time. So, I felt like well, I didn' t know what. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I think it's an important issue, and I think that we have to. . . " 2 Ms. Geneva Till, "We all expressed how we felt about the Park Ranger program. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think the minutes, as they stand, just highlighted and generalized without any specific comments, and I think particularly the fact that we made a request to the staff, I think that should be definitely included in the Minutes. I would like very much for that to be recorded. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. So, can we have a motion for approval, but for that paragraph?" Ms. Geneva Till , "Yes, I'll change my motion to exclude C. Park Ranger to be more fully covered in our next months minutes. This month's minutes. Today's minutes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I would like to see it covered almost verbatum if that's at all possible. I will second the motion. " Chairman Kobza, "There's a motion and a second for approval of the minutes as presented of the meeting of Wednesday, July 24, 1991 , with the exception of that material which appears under sub-paragraph, upper case C of page 4 for which we're going to have a fully expanded narative of those minutes and that discussion for our review at our next meeting, which will be our September meeting. Is there any discussion on the motion? There being no discussion, all in favor signify by saying I. That approval passes unanimously. " (with a 3-0 vote) IV. REQUESTS FOR DISCUSSION - SPECIFIC UPDATE ITEMS: A. WILSON MILLER -- GARY FRANCO: Chairman Kobza, "OK. The next item on the Agenda is Requests for Duscussion. The item under sub-paragraph upper case A, is Wilson Miller -- Gary Franco. " Gary Franco, "Mr. Chairman, what we'd like to discuss there, is the Wilson Miller Contract. We currently have a contract with Wilson Miller for the design of our phases for the Community Parks. However, that is called Professional Services Contract. In the course of that Professional Services Contract, it is sometimes necessary to have some contract or construction management in some of these things (i.e. Mechanical Drawings, may not reflect adequately what we need to put in there) , we may have to have Jeff Hassle go out and do a field adjustment or come up with a different way to put the roof on, or electrical. What was requested was a change order to the contract for Construction Management in the amount of $36,000 to Wilson Miller. " Chairman Kobza, "To them? To that Contract?" Gary Franco, "Yes. To that Contract. " Chairman Kobza, "Let me ask you questions. This would go through Wilson Miller?" Gary Franco, "This will go through Wilson Miller to their four sites, and also Jeff Hassle. " Chairman Kobza, "Who's Jeff?" Gary Franco, "Jeff Hassle will be working with the electrical contract or 3 mechanical shop drawings for Wilson Miller. " Chairman Kobza, "Who is Jeff Hassle? Is he an independent. . . " Gary Franco, "Electrical Engineer" Chairman Kobza, "Is this for specific projects? Basically it is for the three Community Centers. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Which Community Centers are those?" Gary Franco, "Immokalee, East Naples, and North Naples. " Chairman Kobza, "Was that bid at all, or was that. . . " Gary Franco, "Yes. In the original contract however, it did not encompase construction management, just professional services. " Chairman Kobza, "What have we done in the past when, (i.e. like the ballfied.) Glen Bridges provided construction management services. Did he not?" Gary Franco, "Correct. And we always had enough money in there whether it was impact fee money or anything to absorb that in the costs. " Chairman Kobza, "So we paid it outside of the design contract?" Gary Franco, "Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "Let me just ask this. Is the design contract an open ended situation? Are we committed now to that expenditure with Wilson Miller?" Gary Franco, "We are committed to the expenditure to Wilson Miller. Correct. " Chairman Kobza, "I'll you what I'm a little uncomfortable with. This partially replects a change in my thinking over time. I remember very clearly when we approved the design contract for Wilson Miller. That was my first meeting as a PARAB Board member. I think back in January of 1988. For work that we have within the County that falls outside of the design work, I'm a little concerned. At least there are a lot of very capable Engineering Firms out there. Not just engineer but the architectural firms as well. I know that on the North Naples Community Park, that the Center at least I've heard through the grapevine there might have been some trouble with that architectural contract, or the back and forth between Wilson Miller and the Architects. I guess what I'm getting around to is, I think there's a real value in continuity. But, I also don' t want to be so beholding to one firm or one architect, or one engineer that we don' t have the ability to look at other resources. I think there are a lot of very capable firms that should at least have the opportunity to compete. You know, I've worked with a lot of the Engineers, so you get a feel for what their plusses and minuses are. At any rate, and also I think that's a very effective way of keeping our costs where they should be. You know, to do it again, I think with Wilson Miller, I would have broken that contract up rather than make it a million dollar committment to them over a period of 6 years. I would have rebid that contract every year, or every couple years. We can' t re-write history, I know that, but you see what I'm getting around to. This is a major expenditure when we go out and hire Engineers and 4 outside consulting firms. I would like to see that be more competitive to give other professionals an opportunity to at least offer their services. As it relates to this, I don' t really understand what the scope of the Change Order is, and whether others would do it, or should have an opportunity to bid it or not bid it. " Gary Franco, "That would be very difficult when they go ahead and supply the shop drawings and the architectural design, and then have another firm come in here and say no that's wrong. I think it would be a lot better to have Wilson Miller do it. But I share your philosophy, and I might point out that we are looking for different firms to do different projects. The Racquet Club is a good example. Gee and Jenson is going to have that project and Gee and Jensen out of Ft. Myers is going to have Conklin Point too. So, there is some truth to that philosophy so we also share that opinion. " Chairman Kobza, "I just know, that once you get locked in, then you're very much locked in. Because, it's like you just said, now we've got to go back to Wilson Miller to do it cost effectively, because they've got all the drawings. So effectively, once we start down that road where there are additional services are required, the only way we can do it efficiently is. . . . . .but then we'd be baholding to one number. " Gary Franco, "I think all we're trying to be, is competitive in the bidding process and keep everybody in the ball park there. I agree with that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I can see what Kim is saying. I've wondered about that myself. It's seems as though we've been locked in with Wilson Miller on just about everything. I don' t understand the reasoning for that, and the logic for it. But, in this particular case, it looked as though it would be unwise to change horses now. " Gary Franco, "Correct" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Furthermore, I was always under the impression in a situation like this, that supervision, or survelance. I'm not using the right construction word, is an integral part of the contract. I didn' t think it was necessary to hire additional people to perform that service. Secondly I have the feeling. . . Another thing that I've often wondered about, as to whether we don' t have in-house people, within the County Engineering Dept. , Electrical Dept. ect. to perform these services and save the $36,000. I would certainly think that we have people capable of doing that. If so, why aren' t they doing it? I'm not being being critical Gary, but I'm just asking. I though perhaps you might have an explanation. " Gary Franco, "Sure! Well, that contract is time and labor. So, if Gwen has to come out here and and spend five or six hour, or Jeff Hassle redoing drawings or something. That's the construction management part of it. Like I said, it would be kind of tough right now, to go Gee & Jensen and say can you do this, when Wilson Miller has all the drawings and architectural designs for the Community parks. I think, originally, that's how it came about, Phase I, Phase II, Phase III. So, I agree, you do get kind of locked in. But, we might have the same situation with Gee & Jenson. If we were going to have another phase of the Conklin Point thing. So I share your opinion. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You don' t think there are in-house people that could handle something like that?" 5 Gary Franco, "I think it might be all time consuming, and I tell you the truth. I think this right now is the cheaper way to go. It sounds like a lot of money, I understand. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, $36,000 here $36,000 there amounts to millions after awhile. " Gary Franco, "Oh! Sure it does!" Ms. Geneva Till, "Do they keep a file of thise studies? As long as I've lived here, they've always had somebody makeing a new survey. Do keep files of these plans and so on, so they can go back and get those out?" Gary Franco, "Of course we do!" Mr. Gil Mueller, "What's your opinion Gary? What do you think should be done? You have an insite into this thing. " Gary Franco, "My opinion is that we have committed to Wilson Miller for the design of the Community Parks, whether it's Phase I, or Phase II. I think that we should go ahead and adjust the change order to the contract in the tune of 36. But, with PARAB's recommendation to exhaust all other possibilities in looking at other architectural engineering firms throughout the County for the bidding process. I agree with that. Gee & Jensen is a good example, he's got two projects, and one is located down there for the Racquet Club. " Chairman Kobza, "What else are we locked into Wilson Miller on? That was a Design Contract, Phase II, Design only, and that includes the pools?" Gary Franco, "Yes" Chairman Kobza, "That includes. . . " Gary Franco, " . . . the Community Centers. The original Ballfield and Park layout, yes. The Master Plan. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, let me ask you something? Do we phase that? For instance. Let me give you an example. This is how I remember our original discussion back in January of 1988, I guess it was. One of the questions I had then, was why are we designing a pool that's not going to be built six years from now? Then, in the interim, we've now descided at least how it realtes to Golden Gate, that we're not building a 50 meter pool, we're building a 25 meter pool. OK. Was work done on the design for a 50 meter pool? Is all that work now not going to be used?" Gary Franco, "There are some designs for a 50 meter pool. However, the Board has allocated only a million five for a competitive pool, and that's the figure we have to work with. " Mary Ellen Donner, "The actual design of the pool may change, but the research that went into it. . . What kind of heating system? What kind of disinfection are we going to use? What kind of tile? Those kinds of things are constants, and although it might go from 50 meters to 25 meters, the research is still valid. " Chairman Kobza, "I can understand that part of it, I'm not as concerned about that 6 part of it, as I am that we may have drawings for a 50 meter pool or. . . You know, which is all draftsman time, and on, and on. " Mary Ellen Donner, "We had preliminaries. But, nothing that was. . . " Chairman Kobza, " . . .approved. I'll tell you what. Preliminaries cost money, and they sometimes cost you more money than your finals do. " Gary Franco, "Agreed. " Chairman Kobza, " . . .depending upon how you do it. " Gary Franco, " . . .because it involves the research. Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "This going on. . . I'm very in tune to this. I don' t want to be doing, and making expenditures for things that are not close enough in our time line where we know we're going to construction on for Design Fees. The pool is one example of something that jumps out at me. So, how are we going to deal with that?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I don' t think we have a choice. I think Gary put it aptly. I wish I could remember what you've said, I'd make a motion out of it. But, I think that's what we've got to do. We're hemmed in now, and I think it should be done with the stipulation that in the future that other companies be considered, and I feel that we've been locked in to Wilson Miller on many things that perhaps maybe we shouldn' t be. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, they're a good firm. They do good work. That's not the point. Let me ask you this. How much of that million dollars have we spent at this point?" Gary Franco, "Kim, I don' t have that exact figure right off hand. Chairman Kobza OK. Is it less than half, do you know?" Gary Franco, "I would have to do some research. I really don' t know. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, the way Gary stated it, I would support that as a resolution, but as a separate issue, I'm not going to let this just go, because I think it's very important that we efficiently objectively use public moneys. I'll tell you, all you've got to do, is sit down at a County Commission meeting and listen to the Tax Payers Action Group, and the Efficiency Committee, and look at the pressures that are on us for dollars. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think that's good. OK. Do we have to put this in the form of a motion then, is that what's expected?" Chairman Kobza, "I think that is, but as an assigned. I want to get a handle on where we are at in that Design Contract, and how what our methodology is going to be for expenditures of those design funds, because I feel like I don' t really have a grip on that right now. " Gary Franco, "OK. We will get that information to you. " 7 Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do you need a motion on that Gary?" Gary Franco, "We would like a vote by the Board of PARAB on which way to go on that, yes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK, let me see if I can phrase this properly. That we will recommend the Board of County Commissioners, that those moneys be allocated and used according to pure specifications there and as they relate to Wilson Miller. However, with the additional recommendation that in the future that they consider other firms, electrical, engineering, architectural, etc. and consider them on a bidding basis. Do you want to add anything to that Mrs. Till? Did I forget anything?" Ms. Geneva Till, "I think it's important that the County Commission realizes what Kim was saying about spending public money. It is one of our prime concerns too. I'll second that. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. We have a motion by Mr. Mueller, and a second by Mrs. Till. Is there any other discussion? There being no other discussion, all in favor signify by saying I. That passes unanimously. " B. RENTAL POLICY: Chairman Kobza, "Item sub-paragraph B. is a Rental Policy. " Gary Franco, "Yes, Mr. Chairman, that concerns our Rental of Facility policy. I will ask Mrs. Mary Ellen Donner if will want to expand on that pertaining to the Antique Show at Frank Mackle Park. " Mary Ellen Donner, "There's been a request by Lawrence Stillwell up in New York to use the Frank Mackle facility for an Antique and Collectible Show. Basically what he's been asking to use is the Room A, the Covered Basketball Court, and possibly if necessary a portion adjacent to going towards the soccer/football field to have an Antique Show that people would have to pay Admission to get into and then could if they so wished, buy items that are for sale at that show. There was just a question as to whether or not this Department, the County, is going to look at that kind of possible revenue generation? Presently, our Department's policies state that if you're going to rent an inside area, and you are a for-profit group, and inside area would be $30.00 an hour. If you are going to be doing fund raising, and an outside area would be $30.00 per hour. Mr. Stillwell has expressed an interest in renting the park for three days in a row. Two different dates. One in December, and one in March of 1992. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Mary Ellen, is this the same Antique, whatever, shows that they had on Marco for a number of years? They've had it over at the Catholic Church on a number of occasions. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Mr. Stillwell hasn' t run any on Marco. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "This is a new one?" Mary Ellen Donner, "This is a new one, as he presented to me. They have not as yet run a show on Marco. He's in charge of. . . He and his company run shows all up and down each of the coasts through season. He has not had a show, as of yet, on 8 Marco. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "How do you feel? You are more familiar with the schedule of events there at Mackie park than I am. Do you feel that this might interfere with some important scheduled events that regularly occur there?" Mary Ellen Donner, "He's looking at a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Two three day periods. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Two or three day period, correct. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "All day long, I presume. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Yes. They're looking at running approximately 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. or 8:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. We've always been very good at scheduling and adjusting schedules if need be, and if possible. When myself and the Park Program Supervisor first looked at this, there really wouldn' t be any conflict per say. We'd have to do a little bit of schuffling around, but nothing that would really inhibit or prohibit this kind of activity from going on. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, as far as I'm concerned, it would seem to me that this would be acceptable, provided there was some definite stipulations, regulations that he had to adhere to as far as setting up booths, as far as traffic management, that type of thing is of concern. I think you'd have to hire some off duty Deputy Sheriffs, and various other things often a show of that size would encompase. If those stipulations were specified to him, I personally see no reason why he should not utilize that facility. I might add the monetary aspect is attractive to me also. We could use the money!" Gary Franco, "OK. If I may interject here. The real issue here, is whether we want people charging admission to our parks. OK Which could be a dollar to get in or admission to an area of our park for the Antic show. Us, as a Parks and Recreation staff, don' t lean towards profit groups in our parks. In fact in the Executive Summary we're proposing to prohibit those type of policies. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, we charge for everything else on Marco Island. Why shouldn' t we charge for that?" Gary Franco, "I understand that Gil, but you know, it's going to be kind of difficult if you want to go over there on Marco, or. . . That's just not on Marco Island, this is going to be County wide. If you have to pay a dollar entrance fee, up here, to get into the park to go play tennis. Do you see what I'm saying?" Mary Ellen Donner, "I think possibly, what we originally looking at, was not. This might be reflective in the policy. We were not going to charge at an entrance gate. It was going to be. . . You'll still be able to use the park, the areas that are not being utilized by this specific group. So, it wouldn' t be to get in through the gates. It might very well be at the area that's corded off for that specific event. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Why are you charging to get in? Why shouldn' t the revenue come from the Concessionaire? Is this revenue going to the Concessionaire and not to the park?" 9 Mary Ellen Donner, "The revenue would be going to the Concessionaire. He is the one who would be charging people admission to the show. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I don' t know. That's something to think about. I see your point Gary, and I have some reservations too, quite honestly. I don' t know. " Gary Franco, "It has far reaching implications. As read in the Executive Summary, we're trying to prohibit the use of County Parks for profit organizations for the sale of related events, and to prohibit charging admission fees for any profit event held at a County facility. OK. So it has far reaching implications. It's just not this one vendor who wants to have something. " Chairman Kobza, "Can we make a distinction, maybe. I would not necessarily be opposed to a situation where you had a Parks sponsored Art Show where things were sold, or a Parks Sponsored Antique Show for that matter. You know, in other words, where the Parks and Recreation said, there was a group of coordinators and they would allow individual artists or antiquers is the correct nomenclature to come in and put on your show as part of, because there's a component that furthers the cultural awareness and all those kind of things. That to me seems to be a proper Parks and Recreational function. I guess, where I have a problem is, where we start just renting space for the sake of renting space. You can rent space. I can just see that being fraught with problems. You know, let's say, on this particular day we're making a commitment in August for a December situation. In December, all of a sudden, there's a public meeting that is critical to Marco Island. You know there can be. That's facility is used a lot. So, now we can' t find a place, because a business has a public facility tied up. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "This could be on a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Is that what you said?" Gary Franco, "Excuse me. You may open the door for anyone to have flea markets and everything else in here. Co-sponsorship, and this Rental Agreement, this Rental Policy is two complete different issues. " Chairman Kobza, "I think we have to have a more definite understanding of what would be allowed. For somebody to charge to get in a room at a public facility that's, you know. " Ms. Geneva Till, "It looks to me as though you want the people to pay for that hourly rent. " Chairman Kobza, "Right!" Ms. Geneva Till, "Which is what he sells. . . That won' t come out of his pocket. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I don' t see why he has to charge, lets just to say a dollar, or whatever the case might be at the gate. Why is that necessary? I would think that, and I agree with Kim, and I think Gary has the same feeling that to pay to get into a public facility, it just doesn' t set well with me. But, normally when you sign up for a show, you pay the concessionaire X number of dollars for such and such a size booth, and that's how he gets his revenue. Why does he in addition, have to have this hypothetical dollar fee at the entrance?" Ms. Geneva Till, "He wants the fee to pay for the rent. " 10 Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I can see why. He wants to have the money. But, what I'm saying, is I think that could be eliminated, if this were considered positive. . . " Gary Franco, "Our staff doesn' t want any fees and charges to restrict the use of our parks by other residents of the County. I think that if we do vote to go ahead with this policy, it would do that. " Mary Ellen Donner, "There was also some discussion on a case by case analysis. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, that's kind of what I was getting into. If you sponsor it, and you say, look. . . You're professionals in Recreation, I mean you've had schooling in that, you understand it. You bring expertise to your descision making process then. So, if you say, look there's a good reason to sponsor this event, and you take some control, and somebody comes into an event, and as and adjunct to that, would sell a painting or whatever. That's probably OK, but to just say, well we are going to rent space. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Would it be possible, and I'm not advocating that we approve of this, but let me throw this out for whatever it's worth. Could it be possible for him to use the large open space just north of the buildings. Set it up there, like they have at other antique type shows that I've seen, and not utilize the main building or the enclosed tennis courts. That way, it wouldn' t interfer with any scheduled activities that might be planned there. The only thing that could interfer with it, is maybe a soccer game on that huge field. Would that be possible?" Gary Franco, "Well, the Rental Policy doesn' t address whether it's inside the building or outside the building. It's the use of the County facility, the park land, for profit organizations. So, it's not a rental-room policy. We're not addressing those type of situations. We're addressing charging admission for functions for a profit organization within the park boundaries. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "What if and entrance admission were not charged Gary? What if it were taking place in that huge acerage just to the north of the building? Would that satisfy the. . . " Gary Franco, "As long as there's no charges involved, yes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You're not including people that walk up to the booth, and buy a vase or whatever the case?" Gary Franco, "No" Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. Why couldn' t then, I go back to my previous comment? Would that be acceptable?" Gary Franco, "It would be acceptable if we co-sponsored it, and somebody was going to sell something in our Park, and we were going to get X amount of percentage from that deal. However, you were not charged to get into the park and you were not charged to be admitted to confines of where this show was going to be. That's the whole issue right here. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Then if you were not charged to as you say, get into the confines of where the show would be, I wouldn' t approve of that either. " 11 Gary Franco, "Then we would probably consider that just like any other agreement that we have with a vendor in our park. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Because there are profit organizations that are using the facilities down there everyday. So, that's not something new. " Chairman Kobza, "I think the policy ought to be along those lines. The Policy ought to be that we're not absolutely prohibiting Concessionaires in our parks, but that the policy have specific criteria for when that happens. So it happens when you believe that there's a recreational value to it, that's a staff determination. It happens when it doesn' t interfere with other park realted activities. In other words, it doesn' t interfere with the general public's use and enjoyment of the park. " Gary Franco, "Yes. I believe the whole issue is whether admission is to be charged to the park or to the area. We're not saying anything else other than that. I think that what I'm hearing is that we don' t want admission or a dollar fee or a two dollar fee to restrict the access of the citizens of Collier County into the parks. However, to come and rental usage of the facility like we would rent this back room is still in effect. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's what I was primarily trying. . . " Ms. Geneva Till, " . . .just what we have in effect now. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do you need a motion on this?" Gary Franco, "Yes. We would like a motion, and just to make sure, what we are addressing here is admission fees or admission fees to a specific area in the park. Is that we would prohibit those type of things. We wouldn' t prohibit the actual concessionaire from coming into the park and us taking a percentage. We wouldn' t do that at all. It's just to charge people to come into an area of the park or admission. I'm sorry if I haven' t been explaining it right. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You've been explaining it very well. " Chairman Kobza, "I understand that. But, I think that to be safe we really need to have criteria for when you make those kinds of descisions. Because, just as soon =as we let one person in, then the next person's going to say, (Well so and so had an Antique Show why am I different?) . Well, you're different, because there was a recreational value in that. We made a determination (end of tape 1-A) . . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, " . . .retail operator in the state of Florida wanting to come in there, and demanding that they do, based on prior. . . " Gary Franco, "Sure! Or ordinance or our resolution would allow that. So, if we try to restrict that, but we're not really restricting the usage, just the fee charge in there per person, I think we could address that in the Executive Summary form, so I guess that's what we're asking for a motion. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Let me take a stab at it, and if anybody wants to jump in, and ad lib it. . . " Chairman Kobza, "You know, one thing we ought to do, before you do that, it is a 12 public meeting. Is there any public comment on it? (no response) OK. Begin then. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Let's recommend to the Board of County Commissioners, that they consider Mr. Lawrence Stillwell's request with the following stipulations. That it be restricted to the open area, primarily north of the two main buildings, not to include the enclosed building, and/or the basketball court. Secondly, that there not be an admission fee, a general admiission fee charged to get into park property on the basis that it would establish a questionable precident. What else, did I forget something?" Chairman Kobza, "I think the policy is what you're after, right?" Gary Franco, "Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "Because the policy. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Does that pretty well follow your thinking, your philosphy as far as that policy is concerned?" Gary Franco, "Yes. My philosophy is not to charge any admission fee, whether to get into the park or any. . . " Mary Ellen Donner, "area" Gary Franco, " . . .within the confines of the park. However, if they still want to run the Antique Show, then we could set up some type of percentage basis with that, and people could come in here and buy what they wanted to buy. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , then add there Ramona, add also including the confines of the park, however if they wanted to set up some sort of a. . . Well you. . . Gary hit it. Why don' t you follow pretty much what he said. I can' t recall it. But, I agree with that. That would be my recommendation. Ms. Geneva Till, "I'm a little unclear now, whether we're going for a percentage or whether we're going to go for the hourly rent on that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well he's paying the hourly rent. " Mary Ellen Donner, "He has offered to pay. " Ms. Geneva Till, "It's not the percentage?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Well, whether it be a percentage, or an hourly rate. A Facility Usage Fee. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I question the percentage. There's too many way to camouflage it. I think he should be charged a standard rate, whatever the rate happens to be, X number of dollars for so many days. Stay away from the. . . I don' t know if you can follow that Ramona, but. . . . . .not to consider a percentage, but our basic hourly rate. Also, you might want to include what that hourly rate is in this recommendation, because I'm sure none of the Commissioners know. " Chairman Kobza, "As I understand it, your motion Gil, is then for the specific 13 application and also for the adoption of a policy. Is that correct?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "I hadn' t included that, but yes, I'm glad that you reminded me. " Chairman Kobza, " . . .and the adoption of a policy" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes, yes, include that. " Chairman Kobza, "Are we OK now. That's a motion. Do we have a second on the motion?" Ms. Geneva Till , "I'll second that. " Chairman Kobza, "Second by Mrs. Till. Is there any other discussion at all? OK. There being no other discussion, please. . . Those voting in favor, signify by saying I. . . That passes unanimously. " C. INTER-LOCAL AGREEMENT: Chairman Kobza, "The Inter-Local Agreement. Now this is on Bonita Beach?" Gary Franco, "The Bonita Beach/Lee County Joint Parcel of land to be developed up there. " Chairman Kobza, "This is being considered, as I understand it, tomorrow?" Gary Franco, "Correct, it has already been adopted by the Board of Lee County Commissioners. Tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. at the Board meeting, in the Board room, they will discuss this in front of our Board and everyone is encouraged to attend. " Ms. Geneva Till, "That's tomorrow?" Gary Franco, "Tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. Yes mam. " Chairman Kobza, "Could you please summarize for us, Gary, what the agreement provides?" Gary Franco, "Yes, Mr. Chairman. Basically, what it provides is a financial obligation of $60,000 to our parcel of land up there for improvements. Lee County is baring the brunt of the project, having restroom facilities, parking areas, that type of thing. The Board of County Commissioners in Lee County yesterday, has adopted that policy, and asking our Board to go ahead with it. The total obligation, like I said, for Collier County, is somewhere in the neighborhood of $60,000. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Gary, I was reading page two down where is says (this agreement shall include as a minimum the following: Parking lot, Beach Access, Bath House, restroom regarding required landscaping, etc.) . Am I to presume then, that all of these costs will not exceed the $60,000 that we recommended that the County Commissioners not exceed?" Gary Franco, "Correct" Mr. Gil Mueller, "In other words, Collier County is only going to be obligated to 14 spend $60,000?" Gary Franco, "Correct" Mr. Gil Mueller, "They're going to get all that for $60,000?" Gary Franco, "We're going to get all that on $60,000 on our portion of the County ownbed property. The biggest part of the development is going on the Lee County side. OK. We will be able to use their facility. " Chairman Kobza, "Let me ask you some questions. Is according to the Original Site Plan that was presented to us? Is the development to take place according to the same plan that we originally reviewed?" Gary Franco, "The plan that was presented to the Board from Coastal Engineering, I believe, maybe 3-4 meetings ago. Something like that. Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. Is the access in the same place. There was quite a discussion on where the access was located whether it be in the existing or to the north around the curve?" Gary Franco, "Yes. It has been moved, and that is being reviewed by Mr. Archibald in the Transportation Department. That is not in the existing location as was shown to the Board here. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. Withing the Inter-Local Agreement, are we bound or not bound to fees? So, for instance, if we adopt a policy on Parking fees, does the Site Plan allow us to charge those fees or not allow us to, or how is that all going to the thinking on this?" Gary Franco, "Mr. Chairman, to be quiet honest with you. That had come up in discussion between both Counties, and I was involved in a Conference call. However, we did kind of avoid that issue. We don' t to be maybe the first to go ahead and start charging. Our fees are not compatible with Lee Counties fees. Say, if we opened up that property up there, they are charging 75 cents and hour for Beach Parking. Where we're charging maybe a dollar a day. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Lee County is at Bonita Beach?" Gary Franco, "Yes. So, that would have to be addressed again, through both boards some how. OK. We would be responsible for the maintenance of our section, they would be responsible for the maintenance of their section. OK. So, we're not giving away our property, and they're not giving away their property. " Chairman Kobza, "But, the Site Plan as I remember it had open access between. . . It made the whole parking lot one whole parking lot. So, once somebody's in they're in. Right. So, is that an issue to be descided later or what?" Gary Franco, "The use of fees and charges issue was to descided later by both boards, if in fact that issue ever came up. That is not addressed in the Inter-Local Agreement per say. " Chairman Kobza, "So, we're going to build a facility without addressing the fee issue in any form really. " 15 Gary Franco, "Correct" Ms. Geneva Till, "Our fee issue is going to come up for all over the County, as I recall. " Chairman Kobza, "Yes it is, but, see what I'm saying is. OK. It's a lot different in Collier County, we adopt the policy. But now, because the way this parking is laid out, can' t impliment that policy. " Gary Franco, "It would have to be one consistent policy through both boards. We would have to charge the same as they charge, that type of situation. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I wish that I could remember, and I try to find, I failed to find exactly what our recommendation was to the BCC in May or June. I can' t recall. I do remember that whatever recommendation it was, it restricted the expenditures to $60,000. But, I can' t recall the other details pertaining to that. Maybe someone else has handle on it. " Chairman Kobza, "I've got a. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "That was in May or June, Kim, I believe. " Chairman Kobza, "Yes. Yes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I have another concern when we're done with that. " Chairman Kobza, "In this binding Agreement, I just think that it would be prudent to have some at least verbage about how we're mechanically at least going to descide. Whether there would be a fee, and if so, how much that fee is. It's not addressed what-so-ever in here. At least they should have a paragraph that says, FEES, IF ANY, SHALL BE ESTABLISHED BY JOINT RESOLUTION OF BOTH BOARDS. It doesn' t address fees at all, and this is something you know, just like the Barefoot Beach situation where nobody. . . Everybody after the fact says well, the Agreement doesn' t address it. Let's not get ourselves into the same corner here. Let's say, OK, we did address it, and what we did was set up a mechanism at by which be descide what those fees are. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think that's a. . . . I know exactly what you mean. " Gary Franco, "Yes. Mr. Chairmant, on page 2, item E. It will be addressed somehow, if my memory serves me right, under Operations/Maintenance Guidelines Manual. However, that has yet to be developed. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Gary, where are you?" Gary Franco, "I'm probably on the Inter-Local Agreement itself. That's where it should be, but it's not specifically addressed. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think we've got to go back. Let's go back to Lely Barefoot Beach. Kim, you're right! I think that things progressed there without having some prior committments and agreements as far as fees and stuff like that are concerned. Gary, tell me this. What exactly is being accomplished at Lely Barefoot Beach as far as improvements are concerned?" 16 Gary Franco, "We are right now working on the Management Plan for the area. That has to go before the state, and that is one of the mandates from the state on the land that we had leased and also that the state owns. The rough draft has to be accomplished by I believe it's November. In the next two months. OK. That calls for all type of Dune Crossovers, exotic removal, dune restoration, and those type of things. We also are in the process right now of having a complete signage program for that facility also. There is also to be built is the bath house up in that area. So, within probably the next year, you're going to see a whole bunch of different things developing at the Preserve parcel. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I don' t know, this whole Lely Barefoot Beach thing has been a big question mark in my mind. I have never for the life of me been able to understand why we charge at all the beaches with the exception of Lely Barefoot Beach. We paid three point million dollars for this beach, and then we have no charges for it. You would have to presume, one of the reasons being is that we don' t have a bath house, we don' t have some of the other amenities that the other beach facilities have. But still, now we are going to get involved with Lee County, and their beach. How is this going to reflect on whatever progress we make on Lely Barefoot? That's a Collier County Beach, and I think that would have some prerequisite, some priority. " Gary Franco, "I don' t want to get. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "It doesn' t look as though we've made a lot of progress. " Gary Franco, "I really don' t want to try to. . . I'm going to side step here a little bit. I really don' t want to try to involve anybody here in speculation. All we know, is that we were directed by the BCC to address the fees and charges at that facility at a later date. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "At Lely Barefoot?" Gary Franco, "Yes. At a later date. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "We're putting the cart before the horse in my opinion. " Gary Franco, "Yes. That was per BCC mandates, and they were going to address it at a later date. Now, when later? I'm not sure. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, that was part of our commitment, when we were going to have our meetings. . . Mrs. Till, do you have some input here?" Ms. Geneva Till, "Well, I think that should be included in this park, that we do add a statement, something that leaves the door open that we can address that, charging those fees. " Gary Franco, "I'm pretty sure that things of that nature may be addressed tomorrow at that Board meeting. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Yes, but may? Don' t you think they should be addressed?" Gary Franco, "I can' t say what's going to be addressed or not. " Chairman Kobza, "I think it is up to us, PARAB, to make a recommendation, and we've 17 reviewed it, and can say, OK, we recommend approval except that subject to the caveat that the agreement include language which provides a mechanism for setting a fee if any for charges if any. " Ms. Geneva Till, "And that has to be included in the agreement?" Chairman Kobza, "Yes. If it's not, how are they going to. . . What if one jurisdiction says, I want the fee to be $2.00, and the other jurisdiction says, well it should be 50 cents, or who knows. Or, let me turn it around. What if Lee County says, 75 cents an hour a space, and Collier County's policy is free admission or a buck a car, or two bucks a car. See what I mean? There's no way. . . So, the caveat is, there must be a mechanism for setting a fee structure. " Ms. Geneva Till, "This tells me that we do it soon. It should be one of our primary considerations, and that we do put that in there. We recommend it. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, as you said Gary, you know, whatever affiliation this has as far as Lely Barefoot is concerned, I guess is irrelavent at this point. But, I've never been enthusiastic about this Agreement personally, because I think that it will primarilly benefit Lee County, and I think that it's been proven. Even the young guy that was here that represented the Engineering Firm said that his Survey showed, that what, 75%, 80% of the Cars were from Lee County?" Gary Franco, "I believe that it was somewhere in that figure. Correct. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "So, what Collier County. . . In effect, what Collier County tax payers are doing, they are subsidizing a park that most of Lee County people are going to use. It seems to me as though they're dragging their feet and making progress at Lely Barefoot that they paid 3.2 million dollars for, and they're not even charging to get in there. Now, if that makes sense to anybody? I'd like them to explain it to me! That's my feeling as far as this whole thing is concerned. " Chairman Kobza, "OK, I think we have to take a direction, and I think one thing we've got to promote, is we did recommend the expenditure of $60,000. So the question is this. To the agreement, I see two problems with it. I mentioned the fee issues to be addressed. The other thing, there should be an incorporation of the site plan by reference to the Agreement, so that it's clear what Lee County is doing and it's clear what Collier County is doing. We need a motion. Is there public discussion at all? (no response) We need a motion and a second on that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'm not enthusiastic about this, and I'd rather not. . . A motion? You're going to have to make it. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, I'll tell you what. The only time I can make a motion, I was going to say is if they're three members. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Then why don' t you do it. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Well, I'd rather if you would do it, but, I don' t feel exactly like Gil does, about not liking it at all, because I think you do have to. This is something that is going to benefit us. We don' t to look as though we're going to be fighting Lee County. Lee Couty. . . But I do think fees should be addressed. The fee schedule should be addressed before we can enthusiactically say yes, we're going to do this. We have to have that in here. " 18 Mr. Gil Mueller, "Mrs. Till, I hesitate to belabor this, but I must say this. It just seems as with the many things that the Parks and Recreation Department could be spending their budget on, not only as they relate to beach facilities throughout the County, the many important things, the very necessary things, to get involved even if it's only $60,000 and I question whether that will be the ultimate limit of this thing. It just seems unnecessary to get involved with Lee County, and pay money to a facility that's going to be used mostly by Lee County people. The tax payers will be paying for this. That sets badly with me, and I don' t like it, and I don' t approve of it. So, maybe you better make the motion. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, maybe I should make the motion on this particular thing, and I think we do have to keep in mind here, we did recommend to the BCC to spend the $60,000 at one point. I recommend approval of the agreement subject to three items. One is the inclusion of a section which provides the mechanics for establishing first whether there is a fee, if so, second, how much that fee is and how it's going to be charged, collected, and dispursed. Secondly I believe the agreement should incorporate the Site Plan, because I think it's important that there be a clear definition of who's responsibilities are what. OK? Thirdly, I think that there needs to be a section more explicitly dealing with the operational responsibilities of the park. In other words to what extent does Collier County have responsibilities and operations? What are our costs of operation? How are we going to bear those costs?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Kim, the operational agreement or semi-operational agreement isn' t in this at all?" Chairman Kobza, "Well it's mentioned as an operations manual, but. . . I'm not talking about the manual , I'm talking about the policy. This is much like the City of Naples situation where first of all we start out and say, well we'll contribute, it's fairly modest the first year, and then the second and third year it esclates. So, the third item, which I'm on is putting some type of cap in place or having a clear understanding on: What our operating costs are, How they're incurred, How they're paid, and so on. OK. I think, as a matter of policy, that needs to be in this agreement. Mr. Gil Mueller, "Is it necessary, do you think, refresh they're memory that we had originally recommended to the County Commissioners that our costs not exceed $60,000 maximum. Chairman Kobza, " . . .and Fourth, the costs not exceed $60,000 in accordance with our previous recommendations to the BCC. That's a motion. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's a motion? I'll second the motion. Chairman Kobza, "OK. Is there any other discussion?" Ms. Geneva Till, "This manual that you're talking about. Who's going to be working on that manual so this will be spelled out, what we were concerned about?" Gary Franco, "Both Lee County and Collier County Maintenance staff will be involved in that manual. " Ms. Geneva Till, "You all will be involved in that manual?" 19 Gary Franco, "Yes mam. Also, I just wanted to remind the PARAB Board, that it is at one o'clock tomorrow in the board room. " Chairman Kobza, "Understand, that the manual is different than the policy. . . Is there any other discussion on the motion? (none) OK. Then let's take a vote on that. All in favor signify by saying I. That motion passees unanimously. " (with a 3-0 vote.) Mr. Clendenon, "Can I make a comment?" Chairman Kobza, "Sure!" Mr. Clendenon, "As a matter of general information, a few years ago I had a friend that operated concession on that beach. I used to help him out. So, I was pretty familiar what when on at that beach, and for your information, that is the beach for the people from Immokalee. It's the most convenient beach, it's easily accessible, and on the weekends there are an awful lot of people from Immokalee that come down to that beach. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's a good point. Frankly, I had forgotten about that. You're absolutely right! That makes me feel a little better about it!" Mr. Clendenon, "It's not just Lee County. " Ms. Geneva Till, "It's hard for me to pay for Lee County. I'm Collier County. So we can' t share. I want to share. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, my comments were based on 4 or 5 observations of my own that I counted liscense or their liscense plates. And then the gentleman that was here that day from Coastal Engineering confirmed the liscense plate situation. " Mr. Clendenon, "Well, those people from Immokalee, they just don' t come downtown Naples. They don' t go into the state park because of the fee. So they can go to that park. No parking. At that time there was no charge for parking or anything else. It's a pretty good beach. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's a valid point. " D. AMENDMENT TO CLAM PASS UTILITIES: Chairman Kobza, "OK. The next item is the Amendment to the Clam Pass Utilities. Mr. Franco?" Gary Franco, "Yes. Wilson Miller is going. . . We're going before the Board on the 10th. of September. They had the original contract for Clam Pass Utilities, and it was submitted to the state. However, the state had some revisions. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Where are you?" Gary Franco, "Clam Pass Utilities Amendment" Mary Ellen Donner, "Item D" Mr. Gil Mueller, "It's on your Agenda. Yes. We don' t have anything further on +r+ it. " 20 Ms. Geneva Till, "Oh. All right!" Gary Franco, "OK. However, it did go to the state, and they have some revisions in the easement itself, which will require some more drawings and surveying to be done by Wilson Miller. The anticipated amount will be $6,000.00. We're asking the Board for a recommendation to support that project. " Chairman Kobza, "What's the scope of work that's to be done?" Gary Franco, "It's the relating to those utilities towards the beach path out there. Apparently there was some problems with the easement. So the easement had to be revised, and also the drawings have to be revised to reflect those type of revisions. " Chairman Kobza, "So, this is just for redrawing of easments?" Gary Franco, "Yes, and some more surveying. " Chairman Kobza, "There is actually surveying involved in that?" Gary Franco, "Yes" Chairman Kobza, "Do they have to monument where the easement is or going to be?" Gary Franco, "Correct. Location of the easement. " Chairman Kobza, " . . .any discussion at all. (no response) You're comfortable with this? You've reviewed the amount of money? Are they charging. . . Where is the six thousand dollars come from? Is it an hourly rate?" Gary Franco, "Yes. It is an hourly rate, you have time, materials, and labor. " Chairman Kobza, "Is it an estimated number of hours?" Gary Franco, "It's just an estimated number of hours. Not to exceed $6000. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You're more familiar with that thing than I am, Kim. " Chairman Kobza, "The hard thing for me, is it's difficult to authorize expenditures for professional services without knowing the exact scope of work. If it's a few drawings, six thousand dollars is a lot of money, I mean to exixting drawings, because these are now on Computers. If I understand it right, they're on CAD (Computer Aided Design System) . So, if they change some lines, and. . . You know, it's not like it used to be, where you sat down at the drawing table and drew everything out. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "How do they arrive at the six thousand dollars?" Gary Franco, "It's the estimate of the Survey Party to go down there and work out in the field, and also to revise the drawings. There's a set hourly rate. It escapes me right now what it is. I don' t remember exactly what the hourly rate is. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You don' t remember what the hourly rate is?" 21 Gary Franco, "No I don' t. " Chairman Kobza, "Did they provide the letter of submittal to you?" Gary Franco, "Yes" Chairman Kobza, "It's break down?" Gary Franco, "That would be in the scope of services for that project. Correct. " Chairman Kobza, "Just kind of for future reference, I would be more comfortable if I understood that and saw the letter, etc. " Gary Franco, "Sure!" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do you want to delay that, Kim? Can it be delayed?" Chairman Kobza, "They've got to get going on that work. " Gary Franco, "That has been hanging around maybe a year and a half when Mr. O'Donnell was here. The Clam Pass Utility Project. So we would recommend that if we can proceed, we'd like to proceed. " Chairman Kobza, "That's a long time. " Gary Franco, "Yes. I remember now. That's. . . Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "Any comment or motion?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "You know, you hate to delay something like this further, and it's not a tremendous amount of money. But, as Kim said, you'd like to at least specifically know where these expenditures are going before you OK it. If there was some way of delaying this for a short period of time, that would be my preference. That's not possible, or badly advised, why then of course we can' t do it. " Gary Franco, "Maybe we may be able to approve it and submit the man hours, labor, time and materials that were required to accomplish that to the board. Is that possible?" Ms. Geneva Till, "Like when?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "So it'll be done right away?" Gary Franco, "Yes. As soon as I can get my hands on it. Sure. I can call Mr. Bridges up, and have him submit those to us, and they may be on file right now, I just don' t know if they're in this office right now. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. I'd feel better with that, myself. " Ms. Geneva Till, "I'm reluctant to accept this without full details. But, if we have to do it. . . " 22 Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do you need a motion on that Gary?" Gary Franco, "I would like a motion, and I would like the Board to understand that probably if we don' t get that thing passed, or approved to, it's going to take another month before you all address it again, and I don' t know what the time frame is for all those type of. . . It will delay the project substantially. " Chairman Kobza, "The one thing I do want to say, is that has been a long delayed project and needs to get going. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Is it that important that. . . " Chairman Kobza, "Yes. Very much so. It's utilities that run out to the Concessions and all of that on Clam Pass, which would impact our ability to raise revenue. The whole nine yards. So, I'm sure we'd want to try to get done before season if possible. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I didn' t think you needed a motion or a recommendation from this group for something like that. " Gary Franco, "We would like one. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You'd like one, but it isn' t necessary. " Gary Franco, "We would like one. Just pure courtesy type of thing. We'd like to try to bring everything we can before this board. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I appreciate that" Chairman Kobza, "I think the other positive thing is, now we're seeing material on Clam Pass Utilities project. Remember what it first went through? It went through Engineering, and it wasn' t brought to us. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Well , I move we accept this. " Mr. Gil Mueller, " . . .with those stipulations. " Ms. Geneva Till , " . . . that in the future we would like to know how the man hours involved. We will go ahead and accept this now, so as not to be late. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'll second that motion. " Chairman Kobza, "OK, we have a motion and a second, is there any further discussion?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Could Ramona read back that motion, from what Mrs. Till said?" Ramona Daugs, "Geneva Till motioned to accept the motion in the future would like information on the man hours involved. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "We recommended that we proceed with this. The expenditure of this money, however, in the future. . . " 23 Ramona Daugs, " . . .would like information on man hours involved, and expenditures, etc. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. We have a motion and a second, all in favor signify by saying I. OK. That passes unanimously. " V. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS: Chairman Kobza, "The next item on the Agenda is the Collier County Racquet Club. Would there be any disposition for the Board to do the interviews first, and come back to the Racquet Club?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "It's fine with me. " Ms. Geneva Till, "I think we should" Chairman Kobza, "Because I think the Racquet Club could be approved once we get done. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. Sure!" Gary Franco, "Mr. Chairman, may I also advise, that we have Mr. Tom Donnegan here in the Audience. " (end of Tape 1-B) (PARAB took a 5 minute break at this point because of an important telephone call) Chairman Kobza, "OK. We were saying Gary, the interviews for the PARAB district is going to move up, and you started to say something else about another. . . " Gary Franco, "I thought we might also want to also address. . . Tom Donnegan is here from the office of Capital Projects Management. He's going to give us an update about Conklin Point. However, he also is the one in charge of putting out the scope of services for the Collier Racquet Club. So he might want to present and update on that too. " Chairman Kobza, "So let's do A. (Interview for PARAB District #4) , B. (Conklin Point), and then go back to E. (Collier County Racquet Club) and the presentation. " Gary Franco, "That'll be fine!" Chairman Kobza, "Will that be OK" Ms. Geneva Till and Mr. Gil Mueller approved. A. INTERVIEW FOR PARAB DISTRICT #4 (CITY OF NAPLES AREA): Chairman Kobza, "The next item then will be the Interview for the PARAB District #4, which is the City of Naples, and I'll turn it over to you. " Gary Franco, "OK. We had. . . If I can just gather up my thoughts here for a second. 24 We had an application submitted by Mr. Bill Clendenon to be recommended for the PARAB District 4 seat. He had applied through Sue Filson, I believe and we need to go ahead and see it that's permissable here. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. Generally, thanks very much for coming! Generally we just like to ask a few questions. I think that what I would like to do is maybe start with Mrs. Till. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Well, the only thing that I want to him to know, is this is quite a long meeting. There's time involved. You need to be aware that it takes all afternoon. I want you to know, but otherwise, I'm glad for you to be here. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "There are occasions when we have two meetings a month, but that doesn' t happen any more than two or three times a year. " Mr. Clendenon, "For your information, I'm a professional loafer, I'm retired, and so have nothing but time. " Chairman Kobza, "Mrs. Till do you have any other comments?" Ms. Geneva Till, "No that will be all" Chairman Kobza, "You've got quite an impressive Naval record here. I read this earlier, and I read it again. I wondered, and also noticed here in the last paragraph that you became a Deputy Sheriff for the Collier County Sheriff's office, a Corrections Officer, and I curious as to why after considerable length of service with the Navy and I would presume retirement after that time, that you would then become involved with the Collier County Sheriff's office. Was it a lack of something productive to do?" Mr. Clendenon, "No. When I came down here, my intent was to have fun in the sun. You know, you can only play so much golf, fish so much, and pretty soon, it get's to you. I was out at the County Courthouse one day on some other business, and I had just read an article in the Newspaper about the City Jail. They were building a new jail, and they were going to be hiring some Corrections Officers. Well I was over at the County Complex on some other business, and I walked by the Sheriff's office, and I said, I think I'll go in and ask him. What is a Correction Officer. I didn' t even know. So, I went in to talk to him, and before the day was over, I was hired. I said, my gray hairs don' t frighten you? They said, well we like to have a few gray hairs around it lends stability. So, I became a Corrections Officer, and a Jailer if you prefer it. Worked in the old jail in the complex. Did several months out of Immokalee Stockade, and then back to the old jail again. At that time we were about 3 or 4 months away from finishing building J. The County in it's wisdom had. . . the other contract for a clean-up contract. So they called me in and asked me if I would like to assume that job. I said yes I would. So I became the Clean-up Contractor for Building J. Every morning, I'd go over there with trustees, and we'd work all day. We hauled out litteraly tons of material that the contractor just dropped. But, we it ready for operation. When we moved over there, I was appointed as the Services Officer. I was Trustee Manager, I ran the Kitchen, I ran the Library, I ran the Laundry, I did all of the common areas, I was responsible for buying all of the cleaning materials and products, I maintained the stock levels on all the inmate uniforms, blankets, linens. I did everything except ramrod inmates. I had two other Deputys that worked with me. " 25 Mr. Gil Mueller, "Mr. Clendenon, are you a beach walker or a boater, or tennis player, or a basketball player. In other words, what I'm saying is Sir, are you a user of Park & Recreation facilities?" Mr. Clendenon, "You go through these stages. One time I bought a boat, and I am a beach walker. I do go to the beach, and I used to play a lot of golf, but that wears out after awhile. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "The only other thing that I would want to comment about, and that is that we hope that whom ever fills this position, which we're very anxious to fill, would try and be at most every meeting they possibly can. I think this is important. I know many of us and particularly those of us that are employed, sacrifice that to come particularly Kim to come to these meetings and give it a great deal of time. I think that the attendance record be good. I know that others share that same concern. Then an acquaintanc with the facilities too. Particularly the facilities within your own district. The obligation is to be familiar with it, throughout the system, but particularly with your own district. I think it's important to visit them. " Mr. Clendenon, "Well, to comment on the first part of your remark, I have no other obligation, so there is no reason why I can' t attend every meeting. I would plan to if I was accepted to this position. I like to think that I am a participating citizen. I think everybody, every real dedicated citizen should take part in his Government. In other words you have to pay your own taxes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Very good. Thank you. " Chairman Kobza, "I don' t think there's much more that I would add. Attendance is important, all of us bring a bit of background to the Board, and everybody's insite has always been very important, because we all see another dimension. I don' t think there's ever been an occasion when somebody's insite particularly wasn' t Valuable, because they are. So I would welcome a real interest, a high interest level. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "What is the proceedure, Mr. Chairman, as far as this interview is concerned. Do we do anything further?" Chairman Kobza, "Just to speak with him, and then we make a recommendation to the County Board. OK. So, it's a little different situation, So far as there's one applicant, usually and we interview them one at a time. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do we need a motion on this? I think that's probably appropriate. I'd forgotten. It's been a while since we've done this. OK. I would like to make a motion. . . " Ms. Geneva Till, "I'll motion to welcome Mr. Clendenon, whole heartedly, and glad to have your here. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "to recommend to the BCC that they accept Mr. Clendenon's application. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. That's a motion. Is there a second?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'll second it. " 26 Chairman Kobza, "OK. Motion by Mrs. Till , Seconded by Mr. Mueller, the recommendation of acceptance of Mr. Clendenon's application to the Park and Recreation Advisory Board to the County Commission" Mr. Clendenon, "If I may, and I apoligize, because this is a heck of a way to get started, but I would like to be excused, because I have not planned to spend the entire afternoon here. " Chairman Kobza, "That's fine. " Mr. Clendenon, "I have some other business I have to take care of this afternoon. " Chairman Kobza, "You would be able to make our September Meeting?" Mr. Clendenon, "Oh. Yes sir. " Chairman Kobza, "It's the fourth Wednesday, and it's at two o'clock. " Mr. Clendenon, "It's always the fourth Wednesday?" Chairman Kobza, "Fourth Wednesday of the month, at two o'clock unless we set otherwise or have an emergency meeting. " Mr. Clendenon, "I assume that I will hear from Sue, that the County Commissioners have approved it. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You'll hear from them. " Chairman Kobza, "We need to take a vote. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Oh. we haven' t done that yet?" Chairman Kobza, "NO. All in favor signify by saying I. And that make it unanimous. " Mr. Clendenon, "I will look forward to your next meeting" Ms. Geneva Till, "OK. Bye, bye!" B. CONKLIN POINT: Chairman Kobza, "The next item is the Conklin Point issue. " Gary Franco, "Mr. Chairman, we have Tom Donnegan from the Office of Capital Projects Management. He will give us a little presentation and an updat on that project including, I believe, it was just rezoned. Tom. " Tom Donegan, "I work for the County. I'm with the Capital Projects management group. I'm and Engineer and I read project management of several of the jobs that we were involved in. I've been following along with Conklin Point here for awhile trying to see how we can move on that. I've been invited here to kind of give you an update on Conklin Point. I'll just kind over it as I know it. I may not know 27 all the facts, but I worked with Kevin O'Donnell in the earlier days in this thing when we were getting started. I've Murdo and a few people in the Parks Department. As it started out, we made a contract and I'm going to address it the way I know it, and with the Capital Projects we've made a Contract with an Architect and an Engineer to do a Master Plan on Conklin Point site. That was after it's purchase by the County. That was back in 1990, and it was presented to the Board in October 30th of 1990. At that meeting, the Board approved the occlusion of the Coast Gaurd Auxilliary and it to have a place there at that site. The Master Plan, I don' t know if you're familiar with it, but I have a drawing of it here just to refresh you, to see what we've done. The firm Gorm, McGahey, and Lee were the Architects working with our people. Have you seen this? You've seen it in a fancier form, colored pictures, this is what was presented to the Board. That property is about a six acres. To the north is Wiggins Pass Marina, to the South is the Cocohatchee River and it's right along Vanderbilt Drive. The County owns show here, the L section. It's a beautiful section, it's going to be a real nice place for the County, and one positive think that we have going here, it's something that the people are going to enjoy. This little piece of property out here is an island, and that Island has been purchased by Westinghouse. They're over here now. When we made this developement, there wasn' t any owner. That's since been purchased by Westinghouse. It has a picnic area here. This is all that exists today. This was all developed about, I guess 10 years or so ago, and they were going to put some condominimums out here. This was a sales office at that time. There was a gate here, and it's still there. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Is that building usable?" Tom Donegan, "Well, no. We're going to take these buildings down. The only thing they are is mobile trailers and they're not substantial enough, so they're going to be removed. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "There was a building over here somewhere. " Tom Donegan, "Well, there's a building right here which is a gate house. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. The Gate house, but then I thought there was a building. . . " Tom Donegan, "Oh. That's this building right here. " Ms. Geneva Till, "You say this is a picnic area now?" Tom Donegan, "No. It's not being utilized for anything now. It's kind of empty. In some of this landscape. . . There's a wall here, they're going to continue to use. The docks are existing. This is going to be new here, it's the boat launch area, we've tried to lay it out so we get a maximum number of trailers in here. That's what she looks like. That was done by an Architect of another firm, but then we decided we wanted to go ahead and get the OK to start designing this facility. So, we went out, and in accordance with our purchasing policy interviewed architects and engineers to do this job. Actually we went from the Engineer side, because it's mostly engineers. It's going to be a launch area, it's going to be parking, car parking and that type of thing so we selected and engineer. After interviewing several. The Engineer that was selected to be recommended to the Board was Gee & Jensen. It's firm in Ft. Myers that specializes in designing boat launch facilities and they've had a lot of background in that. " 28 Mr. Gil Mueller, "Is that the firm that you spoke of earlier?" Gary Franco, "Correct. Wilson Miller was one of the bidders, and however, the committee selected Gee & Jensen. " Tom Donegan, "Well, there was seven or eight people proposed on it and Gee & Jensen was selected. We had some other short lists. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Are they the people who are doing the Marco Island Fire Department Building?" Tom Donegan, "Yes. They've been selected for that. " Gary Franco, "They're pretty well known in Ft. Myers. They're pretty reputable. " Tom Donegan, "We've worked with them. We've got an agreement worked up and ready tp present to the Board, but it hasn' t gone to the Board yet. As I said, the Westinghouse people have purchased property, and they've been talking to the County about the entrance way to their property, just how our launch are will blend in or how it will coordinate with what they're doing. So while that discussion is going on, we have not presented this thing to the Boards for action. However, we've been carrying forth on the plan to get this thing developed. We have done several things because the project is behind schedule. I think this, as you know, as far as a CIE project, and that's my interest, because I'm involved in CIE, we'd like to see this CIE which has to do with the Concurrency in the Growth Management Plan start taking place, so we want to move the project along as fast as we can. We undertook to a small contract with Gee & Jensen to help us out in getting this thing started. Some of the things that we have done. We have completed a to-po survey on that area, and are ready to do some CAD drawings. We have met with the Collier County Development Group and made a pre-application of an SDP on that project. We've met with the South Florida Water Management District so we can get ready to do a Water Management application. We've gone to the Collier County Planning Commission with a provisional use application, and that was accepted pending the acceptance by the Board of County Commissioners on the ZRO which is the rezoning meeting which is going to take place September 17th. Then they'll have the opportunity to accept the re-zone. A ZRO is a County Wide Rezoning, it effects this particular area also. But, the provisional use will be accepted at that meeting I believe, or we hope anyway. The planning commission, they like the idea, looking at the plan he said, let's move forward with it and we'd like to see actually even have more places to park there if that's possible. So, we want to look at this plan to see if we can get more trailer things in there without eating up into the park area. We met with the Environmental Advisory Board on August 21st. which was just last week sometime, and they approved the plan, and they also had a comment they'd like to see more trailers get in there and they liked the plan. So, we're moving along in that position. Right now, we're kind of on hold because we've used our Purchase Order with Gee & Jensen at this time, we're waiting for the Board to take action on this operation. I think it's an opportunity to have a nice park developement there. Westinghouse is as I say, talking to the County to see how they can coordinate use of their island, because they have to have. . . There is a common area there. Right now the common driveway will serve that island. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "In other words they're going to have access through this park? Westinghouse will?" 29 Tom Donegan, "Yes. There is an easement there. " Ms. Geneva Till, "I would hope they're going to coordinate with us, rather than the othere way around. " Tom Donegan, "Well, I hope so to. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Do you have any feelings of changing? Are you calling the shots or are they calling the shots?" Tom Donegan, "They would like to consider maybe having some more property there, which is now outlined in our master plan. So the master plan may be revised that way to take care of their needs. If anything like that happens, we would certainly look for something in return to the County. " Chairman Kobza, "Question for you. When you say they're looking for something. Can you tell me what they're looking for specifically? Are they going to take, for instance, are we considering selling them the east half of the property or is it just the dockage, or is it access, or what is it exactly?" Tom Donegan, "They have looked for some way that they could get a seperate roadway entrance into the property. One way that they've talked about is to get some of this area here. Possibly we'd have to build a new bridge across probably, and to relocate these launch facilities to this location. This comes out here like so. This is all water here, this is water here, this is a bridge, this is water here, These are some of the docks for the marina, and they have a petition in to put a large boat storage area launching facility over there. That doesn' t interfere with anything we're doing. " Chairman Kobza, "Tom, one thing that I want to say, is that it's excellent that you've gone through this work. I'd just tell you it's great that we've got these steps out of the way. You're really moving fast in those portions. A couple things about the site plan I want to ask. Are we going to utilize the existing structure for the Gaurd house. " Tom Donegan, "It's not planned to. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. So that's coming out, and we're going to put a new structure in. " Tom Donegan, "Right now, this is not showing with a gaurd house see. They have a small little building right here. I think it's going to be new with a gate here so there could possibly be some charges for using this boat launch facility. Was not any plan to have a charge for using the park facility. " Chairman Kobza, "What kind of signage are we. . . " Tom Donegan, "We really haven' t considered any signage yet. " Chairman Kobza, "One thing I noticed about the plan, that I want to keep in mind, is the interior landscaping needs to be as good as it can be. You know, in terms of mature plantings. . . " Tom Donegan, "There's a good share of these trees that exist today. I don' t know 30 if you've been out to that site, but a lot of these trees are there. Of course, we will try to maintain and save every tree there, because there is some very good landscaping there now. " Chairman Kobza, "And also, so that we not just have unbroken asphalt, and start collecting like a parking lot. OK. Question for you. The dockage down there. How long are those docks? They're fairly short, aren' t they?" Tom Donegan, "Fairly Short. Maybe 15 or 20 feet or so. " Chairman Kobza, "So we would utilize them for small boats. Would we charge for that?" Tom Donegan, "There's no plan for that as yet as to how we would plan for this, charge for it. We just thought maybe this way it is now, with the people using the park and pull up here and so forth. " Chairman Kobza, "Who gets to use those slips? Anybody?" Tom Donegan, "They're not rented slips. We hadn' t planned it that way. " Chairman Kobza, "Anybody that pulls their boat up can have a picnic there, or not? OK. Does your office maintain the channel markers going out?" Tom Donegan, "The Channel markers themselves will probably be part of the. . . There is some work going through our office, and I'm not up-to-date on it, but of course, Wiggins Pass, dredging, and things like that. So, maybe there is some Channel Markers there that we would have to be involved in. " Chairman Kobza, "On thing that I was very concerned about, and I do boat this area, so I know it pretty well. You know it's a manatee. . . I mean there are a lot of manatees back there, and as it. . . " Tom Donegan, "The Environmental Advisory Board put some stipulations onto us. You have to have Manatee Alert posted in all this area here. We also have to have a posting on safe boat handling, and small boat handling, and fishing tips. " Chairman Kobza, "How about no wake to the. . . " Tom Donegan, "We didn' t get into the No Wake discussion. Chairman Kobza, "OK, and also around the southerly side of that, is there not some burried cable in there that's going over to the other development? It's a condominium development. " Tom Donegan, "I don' t know if there's any cables there. There is a bridge right here, it could go under or may be attached to the bridge right here. " Chairman Kobza, "One of the things that I would like to see, is if we're going to use this as a public facility, and put all the public into those back waters there, we need to have that well marked up to the channel , because the public can stray into those water to the north. . . " Tom Donegan, " . . .back over here is a lot of mangroves and shallow water. During 31 low time there is no water. All the PARAB Members express their concern for boat ramps that are not hard to get in an out of, without a steep slope. Mr. Gil Mueller. "The only thing that concerns me about this, is this Westinghouse property back here and the accessibility. I can envision a Lely Barefoot beach in reverse situation here. In effect, that's what it is. I would give a recommendation, or to the Commissioners is in order, if that's what we're aiming for, I'd strongly advise that plans be made now to allow them to put their own road in back here. This would develope probably into a problem. With Condominimums back here, and all the boats and their trailers coming through, oh boy!" Chairman Kobza, "That could really rearrange this whole Master Plan. " Tom Donegan, "Yes, it will. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Is there means to put a road in here?" Tom Donegan, "The roads will be here off of Vanderbilt drive. . . .we'd have to change our launch area. . . . . .we were quite concerned about launching into the Cocohatchee River. There's not any depth to the canal" Mr. Gil Mueller, "All I'm saying, is that Westinghouse is going to put Condominimums here and their access is through this park, we're going to have the same problem we have at Lely Barefoot, probably even worse. It's a reverse Lely Barefoot situation. " Chairman Kobza, "If you do enter into a sale of part of this property, do you have to go back through all of the approvals again? The Environmental Advisory Committee?" Tom Donegan, "I'm not sure. " Chairman Kobza, "The Provisional Use?" Tom Donegan, "I would hope that we wouldn' t have to go through the provisional use again. We may have to go back, and designate the change in the site plan, or something like that. " Chairman Kobza, "We'd have to spend whatever new moneys, would be referred to new architectural?" Tom Donegan, "We would hope that if there is any of that, it would be handled by the people over here that are requesting the change. " Chairman Kobza, "Yes. So you'd have to be reimbursed for all that. Plus that would. . . . . .and we'd need to be well paid for that. " Tom Donegan, "If there were ever a fee emposed here, and I suspect, I hope that one day fees will be standardized within the County, there's going to have to be a gaurd there, and he's going to be up to collecting money, and the people from the Condominimum will be going back and forth, and it's going to be a real mess. It's a possibility, that if we do this, we might have to read into this area here. " 32 Chairman Kobza, "What is the current time table? Is that still May of 1992?" Tom Donegan, "It would me, right now we're on hold, so. . . . . .well , until we get a zone contract. We've been these things along on provisional use. The next that happens, is that it goes to the Board for a ZRO, and for approval of this Provisional Use on September 17th. " Chairman Kobza, "That's almost automatic, as I understand it. I watched the Westinghouse application before the Planning Commission, and I think if they'd get theirs, obviously, we'll get ours. " Tom Donegan, "Yes. I think that's true, but right now until we get an assignment, with what's going to happen here, and make a contract with a designer, we're not moving. We're on a wait stage. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. Any other questions at all?" Ms. Geneva Till, "What's ZRO stand for?" Chairman Kobza, "Zoning Re-evaluation Ordinance. That's where they are taking existing zoning designations and changing those designations that are consistent with the Comprehensive Plan. So, Commercial to Residential or in this case, I think this property is zoned residential. Do we need any action on that, or is that just an update?" Gary Franco, "That was just an update & a presentation to keep the Board informed. " IV. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS (continued): Chairman Kobza, "OK. So the next item that will. . . " Gary Franco, "I'm sorry. I might ask Tom to stay there. He will now give us an update into the Racquet Club facility, and where we stand, and then we get into a discussion. " E. COLLIER COUNTY RACQUET CLUB: Chairman Kobza, "OK So, the next item on the adgenda is Roman numeral four, sub-paragraph upper case E, the Collier County Racquet Club. " Gary Franco, "Yes. I had said that Tom Donnegan could also spearheading the renovations or the proposed renovations for court three, four, and five. He has developed a scope of services to be put out, and he will take it from here and tell you where he stands on that project. " Tom Donnegan, "We a. . . I didn' t realize that I was going to be talking about this today. . . Murdo, we'd put together a scope of services as to what we wanted to do on the Racquet Club, and we have continuing contracts with several engineering firms. One of which is Gee & Jensen. We had talked to Gee & Jensen about doing this little job for us, which is a small job. So, Gee & Jensen has worked with us, and visited the site. We had been down there twice. Once with the Parks people, and once with Gee & Jensen. Looking over to what's really needed down there, and 33 to what we should be doing. We visited back with Murdo, and now we're ready to take a work order to the Board. In other words this is part of their annual contract with the work order, to have Gee & Jensen start the work, and what they propose to do, is something like this (plan was shown) . There's five courts there. Courts one and two, we weren' t planning on doing anything with. Those courts I guess are reported to be in substantial shape and not needed repair as far as the courts themselves are concerned. Three, four, and five. . . although we do plan to look at the drainage for courts one and two. . . .plan on looking at the drainage at the whole site. The drainage may be causing some of the problems. Three southerly courts, three, four, and five are exhibiting surface cracking, and ponding, and uneven playing surfaces. So what we plan to do there is. . . First of all we're going to make an overall drainage review of how the water gets off of that site. Because, they say when they have heavy rains to the east of the site, the drainage already fills up and water spills back onto the site that we have. So, we're going to see if we can' t get some of that water off of the site. So, we're going to look at that. We're also going to have a geo-tech guy come out and do some borings there to see what's going on, on those courts three, four, and five. Whether it's tree limbs? Because we understand there used to be all those pine trees up close to the site. They were going to take them out, and the limbs may be. . . . . . the roots may be deteriating under the surface. We're going to look at that. On. . . From that. . . . . .and also, we're goin to come up with a cost of repair to three, four, and five. The cost of repair would be to restore the courts with the present cushion surface. We're also going to ask the consultant to come up with a design cost of play courts on three, four, and possibly five. So, we'll be able to compare what we want to do dollar wise. Whether we repair the courts that are there, or whether it's best to replace those courts with clay courts. So, we'll have costs good for being able to do that. We're going to come up with construction drawings and specifications for the repair/resurfacing of three, four, and five. And also prepare construction drawings for making three, and four, clay courts. And also we'll have a construction drawings and specifications for lighting of courts three and four and possibly five. Again we have several combinations here, so after we get the prices, we can decide just what we want to do. They're going to provide the permitting for surface improvements and construction drawings and any improvements needed on the drainage, and also provide services, inspections during the times the work is done. We're hoping to get this work order on the BCC Agenda on Tuesday, so it can be acted upon the following Tuesday. That would. . . I hope to get the Engineering done in something like 30 days, and select a contractor, and then get the work done in about 45 days. To try to get it done before the season gets too heavy. So, we're coming up with various combinations here, as to you might want to do, and how much it's going to cost for each one of the selections to be made. I know there's a lot. . . I understand that there's been a survey made, and there's some interest in clay courts. " Gary Franco, "Correct. The results of the survey have come back, and I will turn that over to Mary Ellen here in a second so she can present the results of the survey. I think what Tom was saying is very important. We're using different combinations to get the biggest amount of (end of tape 2-A) . . . . . .going to look at courts number three and four for clay, for lighting. Maybe try to turn court number five into clay, maybe light that. We're just going to see how much money it's going to cost per court, and then we'll know what we're going to do with it. Unless you have any other further questions from Tom, we can have Mary Ellen give you the results of the survey. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "The one thing I wanted to ask you about the. . . I have not seen 34 the conclusions of these surveys, although I am aware of the degree of response, and I am aware of which way the theme has swung, just by virtue of talking to just about everybody there. The reason I bring that up, is. . . I believe there is a map, at least according to. . . What's Shanahan's secretary's, Sue Block is that here name, Brock, whatever. She was asked last Thursday to determine whether there was a property map from Real Property to determine whether or not there was ample property to add courts. She had she had a map. However, she thought there was an improved map available. I wondered whether anyone here had seen that map? Whether or not there was room to add courts to the south?" Tom Donnegan, "I've not seen that map. I don' t know. I know there's some space back there. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, the only reason I bring that up, I thought perhaps you might be interested in pursuing that because she was going to get it for Dick Shanahan. He might have it. Obviously if additional courts were to be considered, they couldn' t be added to the west, because of the utility lines, power poles. The only place, really, would be to the south where the pine trees are. Whether or not there is sufficient room there, I don' t know. But this map would certainly show that. " Gary Franco, "Gil, I do believe there is sufficient room to add course. We do own that property over there. Just how many courts we can squeeze in there, we don' t know at this time. But, there is at least enough room to put like two more courts or something of that nature. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. Additionally, I wasn' t aware that number four was in that bad of shape. It's been three and five that are in terrible, terrible shape! Now, maybe four is I haven' t played on it. " Mr. Tom Donnegan, "Towards the back fence line, the south fence, there seems to be some ponding and some wavyness into the terrain there. It would be resurfaced at the same time. Well, we'll put some borings out there and find out. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Put borings on three?" Mr. Tom Donnegan, "Both. Three, Four, and Five. " Gary Franco, "Gil rational, was there's that we just didn' t want to put in one clay court on number 3 and have the asphalt court on number 4. We thought that we should either have them both at the cushioned surface, have them both clay court surface. We could probably get the job done for the same amount of money as opposed to like doing one. So that's the different combinations we're looking at here. But, Tom was going to do an in depth study and see what's going on out there and if possibly it would start to deteriorate even further. We'll know that when Geo-Tech or the samplings. Right Tom?" Mr. Ton Donnegan, "Yes. I'll check with the Realty Department and see if they've got a drawing of the. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You migh check with her, because she was going to pursue this last Thursday, and she's. . . . " Mr. Tom Donnegan, " . . .see if there's enough room to put those in, and of course, if 35 there is, and we're going clay courts, I guess we could find out what that would cost also. " Mr. Gil Mueller, " . . .and lights. That's important. " Chairman Kobza, "I've got a couple of questions. Is the money funded in the preliminary budget, or where does the money come from?" Mr. Tom Donnegan, "There's money in the present budgets to do the Engineering Cost Study that we're talking about now, and there's money in budget plan to be about to do something like $50,000.00 worth of repair on the courts. " Gary Franco, "Correct. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Would you mind repeating that last sentence, I was consentrating on writing something. " Mr. Tom Donnegan, "There's enough money I understand, today, to do the engineering in the existing budget and that engineering fee is going to be at maximum of $11,600. The estimate of cost to do that upgrading, we don' t know yet. But there's $50,000.00 in next year's funding for that. That should take care of what needs to be done I think. " Chairman Kobza, "Where's the $50,000 coming from? What fund?" Gary Franco, "Maybe I can clarify that. In fiscal year 1990/91 budget which is the professional services. That is coming out of this year's moneys. OK The BCC Has approved, in next year's budget, 1991/92, for a $50,000 in Line Item. . . Improvements General to upgrade those courts. That's where that's coming from, and that should have been approved at the Budget Workshop. " Chairman Kobza, "Is that General Advelorum?" Gary Franco, "Yes. General Fund. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "My understanding there was a approval at the budget workshop. " Gary Franco, "Correct. Yes, so $50,000 is obligated for improvements at that facility. What $50,000.00 gets us? We don' t know at this point, but we'll find out. " Chairman Kobza, "A couple of things. Just points. You know we don' t want to be far sited in our expenditure, and like for instance, we're talking about lighting two courts, mayben not the third, it would seem like when you had someone out there putting in the lighting for the first two courts, it would be comparitively less expensive to put in the lighting for the third. " Mr. Tom Donnegan, "The reason why we said lighting for the two courts, 3 & 4, is because that conduit is already in the ground. That's why. . . . . . there's a reasonable cost to do that. If you go to five, that mean's that's new conduit. " Chairman Kobza, "OK That was one of my questions there, and likewise, potential construction. . . Let me ask you, Tom, is it possibly less expensive to build a new clay court than it is to take an existing court and try to make that into a 36 different type of surface and taking that apart? Or, can you reuse the subgrade? Is that the thinking?" Mr. Tom Donnegan, "I don' t really know until be get this boring how much sub-base you're going to have to remove. You might have to remove it and replace it. We may find that the cost of repairing those things is more than the cost of a new clay court. Because, clay courts. . . I don' t know the difference between the numbers quoted, it's been about $17,000.00 or something like that. " Chairman Kobza, "How do you improve drainage when you've got an existing condition like that?" Mr. Tom Donnegan, "Well, you may have to change the swales somewhat. " Chairman Kobza, "Is it the swales, or is it the surface of it?" Mr. Tom Donnegan, "Well no, those courts are fairly flat. But they'll take water runing on them from off court or as well as water coming off court and running out. It may be a slight pitch so that they do get some draining. I think they'd probably put a little crown in those things so they. . . " Chairman Kobza, "Right. That's what I was thinking. Is the drainage problem generated by off-site factors?" Mr. Tom Donnegan, "I don' t know. . . It's just heresay, but some work done on the east property line may have changed some of the drainage on the courts. " 4 wow Mr. Gil Mueller, "I kind of doubt whether there's a serious drainage problem there. I've moped out and roled out that court many, many, many times in the wee hours of the morning, and I've not noticed that there was a serious drainage problem from surrounding property. The court itself just does not drain properly. Even if there were, a swale of sorts would solve that problem very quickly. If there were drainage from the outside. " Mr. Tom Donnegan, "Yes. That's what we're hoping. That this is not a major drainage problem. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I also think, and I'm certainly not an expert on this, and this is just a guess, perhaps. But, I'll bet most anything, that the reason that court is sinking is because there have been pine trees burried there and they've deteriorated and the ground's coming down. So, I think it's going to be important for the course, and I think the same thing applies to five. Playing on five is like running up hill and running down hill. It's that bad! There's about a five or six inch drop. " Mr. Tom Donnegan, "There's a continual slope to the west? I'll look at all of those things and come back with some recommendations. " Chairman Kobza, "You are saying that constructions could commence 45 days after your engineering is done. " Mr. Tom Donnegan, "NO. It would be able to start if we can make a contract. That usually takes 3-4 weeks at the very fastest. Two months at the normal. Then you have to have some construction time which could maybe be 45 days. " 37 Gary Franco, "Excuse me Mr. Chairman, but I think what actually Tom is saying. That after he developes his scope of services, you still have to prepare the necessary bidding document through Purchasing, and then a construction person would be able to after he bid on the job, be awarded the contract, and perform the scope of work. So, it's going to be a little bit of time. " Chairman Kobza, "January 1? February 1?" Gary Franco, "We're hoping before that. " Mr. Tom Donnegan, "It's December 1 . There's a lot of work to be done on that though. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's good news. I was fearful that we'd have a much worse seniero, and I'm pleased to hear you say what you just said. " Gary Franco, "Thank you very much Tom. The next item would be the results of the survey. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Just for everybody's knowledge, there was a survey taken at the Racquet Club, between 8-3-91 and 8-22-91 . There were 232 people who responded. Basically, what we were asking them. . . Do they prefer the existing cushion or do they prefer clay when we go to re-do the courts? Of the 232 people, 185 or 79 percent said that they prefer replacing the existing surface with clay. So that left twenty one (21) percent or fourty seven (47) people who said that they prefer the existing cushion. There was a little bit of room for additional comments. Fourty four (44) people asked to provide lights on more of the courts. Two (2) people asked us to improve the lighting that is now on the courts. Nine (9) people wanted us to build more courts. One (1) person each said clay was too costly to maintain. One (1) person said needs better maintenance. One (1) person said fix existing courts. One (1) person had a question, who will take care of the clay courts? One (1) person needed more access to bathrooms. One (1) person asked, will the cost go up? One (1) person asked that we need more squeegees. That was the information that we got back from the survey. " Chairman Kobza, "How was this survey taken?" Mary Ellen Donner, "The survey was distributed throught the Racquet Club, to the people who use the Racquet Club. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "By the way, the people down there, particularly the two ladies down there really went out of their way to make sure that everyone was aware of this survey, and even encouraged people very gently to respond to it, and to reply. That's the reason I think we got this good response. I think it's a tremendous response myself. " Chairman Kobza, "I'd probably be that one person that would say, what if the costs go up? How would that impact their response? Clay courts are better to play on than hard courts are, but if you ask that question. . . Would you prefer to clay courts if it were to cost you another X number of dollars to play? What would the response be?" Mary Ellen Donner, "We're still going to have minimally two (2) cushion courts with 38 the possibility of three. So, we didn' t address any sort of fee differential or increase or anything along those lines. We were meerly trying to find out what kind of surface the people would prefer. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "However, Kim, to answer your question, I discussed this on many occasions. Almost all the guys that I play with, probably 30 or 40 of them. There was only one person which objected to an increase in fees. They all agreed that this is still a very good deal as far as fees at Tennis courts are concerned. There's only one person which objected, but they said that they wouldn' t mind paying more money if there was a greater degree of maintenance there. I think they are entitled to that if they pay more money. So that perhaps might answer your question. " Chairman Kobza, "I'm always concerned about the cost versus demand. With they type of faciltiy, we want it used as much as possible, and we want to make sure it's not. . . That itself as much as possible. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, they turn people away down there, because of lack of additional lighting. I do know, that at the Marriott, where they have mostly clay courts, you can' t get a court there during the season. People gravitate towards the clay courts when you reach a certain age. " Chairman Kobza, "OK, is there any additional staff presentation on this agenda item?" Gary Franco, "I think Mr. Mueller had asked for a cost breakdown of the bugetary process for the Racquet Club, and I thought he may want to discuss that at this meeting. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I did have some questions. I was just questioning, on this cost breakdown, for example, in the first paragraph Personal Services, it gives salary amounts and it gives salary benefits. It seemed to me, that the difference between the base salary and the salary benefit was excessive. Particularly in the 1 FT Supervisor category where you have a benefit. . . Based on a salary of $21,000 you've got a benefit of $7,600 additional. That's 30 percent. From my knowledge of the business that I'm part owner of, and other businesses that I'm familliar with, the additional benefit costs are not that great a percentage. In fact, they're not anywhere that near that great a percentage. I wonder why they would be that amount in these two instances?" Mary Ellen Donner, "These benefits. The salaries with benefits that you're looking at, are set by the County. These are County wide benefits that all full time employees receive. That includes your workers compensation, your insurances, your disabilities, Hospitalization, Retirement, a portion of your medical. That's set by the people down in main office. " Chairman Kobza, "So, in other words, there are different grades within the County, and so these people fit into a certain pay grade and a certain step and whatever they fit into. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Right" Chairman Kobza, "Whatever they fit into is the same as whatever that step is on a 0 County wide basis wether that person's working in Utilities, Parks, or 39 Transportation or etc. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Those benefits are calculated on a percentage. An actuary percentage. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'm aware that they are quite a bit more than the average business allows for salary benefits, and that's why I wondered why they were that amount. OK. The other think I wanted to ask about, it you have a 10 percent Administrave Cost. What is that?" Mary Ellen Donner, "That is a portion of the Racquet Sports Supervisor's salary. That may include a portion. It's just clerical. It's a portion my salary that the time that I spend dealing with. . . Obviously 10 percent is not a huge deal. Obviously my salary spreads over a lot. But, that 10 percent are administrative. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You mean, the costs that are paid are paid to you to administrate these salaries?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Me, and the Racquet Sports Supervisor, the paperwork that we process. Any of the administrative costs for processing. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Humor! OK! Under Operating costs, we've got and excess of $20,000. I realize that some of this is for Part Time Help. " Mary Ellen Donner, "I can basically tell you, if you want to know what that comprises. For example, the contract services includes the Tennis Pro, any of the lessons or the Summer Camps that are taught. Those types of things that are in that Contract Services. The Lipton Bus trip runs through that contracted line. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Wouldn' t that be paid for under salary?" Mary Ellen Donnner, "No" Mr. Gil Mueller, "For the Instructors to instruct the kids and so forth. . . as part of their salary. The paragraph above?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Salaries are in there. No. There are contracted personnel who do teach above and beyond. Like for example, this last Summer Camp, we had 40 children. So did not only Jeanine teach, but so did a Contracted Pro, because one Tennis Instructor can not handle 40. It includes, for example, rentals of the bus when we go on trips. This contracted services, althought one tends to think of it as being a Tennis Pro. . . There are many, many things that go into that particular line item. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's another thing I wanted to ask you about. We haven' t had a Pro down there in a long, long, long time. That's why I wondered why there would be that figure for a Pro. " Mary Ellen Donner, "The contracted Pro, the gentleman I am speaking about, this last year. His name was Mike. His per hour contractural salary would come out of that contract services. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Out of that 10,000 dollars?" 40 Mary Ellen Donner, "Correct. The Personal Services are full time people only. Out of the Contract come your part time help. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Minor Operating, Pro Shop, $6500?" Mary Ellen Donner, "That is the equipment and so forth that is bought for the Pro Shop, and in tern re-sold back to the Public. The $6500 is the budgeted amount to buy on re-sale equipment. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Where, then, and perhaps I've over looked it. Where is the revenue from this $6500 sale" Mary Ellen Donner, "The revenue is under Revenue. It's kind of misleading. You have an expenditure and a revenue. The revenue does get deposited into a Pro Shop revenue account. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Oh. It's down under Anticipated Revenue. Well I didn' t see Pro Shop in there, that's why I wanted to. . . " Mary Ellen Donner, "The Pro Shop is in there. It's in that lump sum. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do they make any money on that Pro Shop, Mary Ellen?" Mary Ellen Donner, "$6500 is the budgeted amount. To date, they have not expended that $6500 and to date we have made $5308. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "What you're saying then, is these are all budgeted amounts. No necessarily specific expenditures. " Mary Ellen Donner, "These are what we have incurred, and this is what we have projected back when we were looking at the Productivity Report in Line Items and so forth. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "What does the Pro Shop make? I have my doubt. It doesn' t seem as thought anybody ever buys anything there other than the occasional tennis ball. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Year to date, they have make $5300. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's included in that 50?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Yes" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Maintenance Costs, electricity, $7200. This is budgeted amount? This isn' t actually an amount that's been spent?" Mary Ellen Donner, "This is budgeted. " Chairman Kobza, "What did we spend last year?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Last year we spent. . . " Gary Franco, "That almost remains a constant, by the way. $7200 seems like a lot of money, but if we could show you some of the stuff that we've for turning the I 41 lights on here, and everything, it's relatively low figure. " Mary Ellen Donner, "That's basically what we spend. We spend about $7200 down there. " Gary Franco, "Now, that is electricity for the whole site. Just not for the lights. It's also the airconditioner inside, etc. " Chairman Kobza, "$600 per month. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. How can we make this situation a break even proposition do you think? What do you think could be done? I'm not saying make money down there, but there's been threats and suggestions that unless this thing can start to show a little better profit picture, why maybe another facility. " Gary Franco, "I think we're taking a step in a positive direction. We're in compliance with the productivity report. We are trying to upgrade those courts in liew of saying that maybe we can raise the court fees, the permit fees, or whatever andother fifty. Whatever this board directs us to do. We will bring it back to the Board again about fees and charges for the Racquet Club. Mary Ellen and Cliff had worked on that. Of course if we're going to upgrade the facility, we're going to charge a little bit more too. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. Well I think that would be acceptable. " Gary Franco, "That will narrow the gap, I believe. If we go ahead and light that facility, then from what I understand from everyone is telling me, those courts will be busy all season long. You're turning people away, because there's no lights on three and four. That's going to be extra revenue too. How much? I don' t know. But, I know it's going to narrow the gap quite a bit. So we're anticipating that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, then I think some of the other things that I had written down would be premature as far as suggestions as to how costs can be contained, and additional revenue can be produced. Perhaps then, the best thing to do would be to wait until there's been some progress as far as improving that facility and then getting into that. " Gary Franco, "Then this board will address those fees and charge issues. Correct. " Chairman Kobza, "How much is a court hour? What's the charge for tennis?" Mary Ellen Donner, "It depends if you are a permit holder, or a non-permit holder. There are different categories down there. There is also resident and non-resident. So, for example, and hourly court for a singles player, if you were to go down there, and you were a resident of the island, it would be four dollars. If you are a non-resident, it would be five dollars. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. What's the breakdown? Ninety percent residents? Ten percent non-residents? Different than that?" Mary Ellen Donner, "The majority of residents, I would say probably a good ninety percent. I would suspect. " 42 Chairman Kobza, "So, we're probably weighted towards and average of $4.00 per court hour. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Correct" Chairman Kobza, "Is that the principal source of revenue?" Mary Ellen Donner, "The permits that. . . You can buy a permit, and then you. . . It's very hard to say. Most people are residents. I would say probably we had sold a hundred permits this last year. Many, many more people than a hundred play on those courts. " Chairman Kobza, "How much does a permit cost?" Mary Ellen Donner, "A permit for an adult. For example, if you are a resident, is a hundred dollars. " Chairman Kobza, "So a thousand dollars of our revenue comes from permits. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "But you have to consider that there are doubles. . . . " Mary Ellen Donner, "Right. There is a singles permit, a doubles permit, and a family permit. It's very. . . " Chairman Kobza, "OK. It the 100 permits encompass all permits?" Mary Ellen Donner, "The hundred is a total. For example, this last year, we had sixty two singles permits, thirty couple permits, and eight family permits. And for example, the permit for a resident for a single is a hundred, a couple is a hundred and fifty, and for a family is a hundred and seventy five. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Is this the only racquet club in the County?" Mary Ellen Donner, "This is the only facility that the County operates. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Then we pay more too, as a permit holder when we join a league, everybody pays an additional seven dollars. " Mary Ellen Donner, " . . .depending on the length of the league" Mr. Gil Mueller, " . . .and then you supply the balls. So you pay for the permits you pay the seven dollars, and you supply the balls. " Mary Ellen Donner, "If you are a permit holder. If you are not a permit holder, league's more expensive. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Right!" Chairman Kobza, "Out of our revenues $12,100 comes from permits, using your numbers. " Mary Ellen Donner, "These are the permits to date. Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "of this revenue, $12,000 comes from permits. " 43 Mary Ellen Donner, "I didn' t actually calculate the dollars. I trust your figures. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, I'm just taking 62 x 100 is 6200; 30 x 150 is 4500 and 8 x 175 is fourteen hundred, so that's 12,100 dollars. Let me tell you what I'm getting at. The deficit is $30,000, and we would have to have an additional 7500 hours of play time as a result of the improvements at four dollars per hour to cover the deficit. " Gary Franco, "Based on the fees and charges that we have in place right now. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "If the fees and charges were increased, if some of the unnecessary costs that have been. . . " Gary Franco, "Correct. There's some fine tuning that we may be able to perform at that establishment. Sure!" Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's right. If some of those costs were eliminated, that would influence it, Kim. " Chairman Kobza, "I'm just saying it's 21 hours of play time additional, per day. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Keep in mind too, we're only talking about permits here. There's Racquet ball down there. There are leagues. There are lessons. There are a variety of services that are offered down there that you may not. . . I don' t know. Depending how we descide to go, you're looking. . . Last year when we raised the fees, we only raised the permit fee. We didn' t raise any of the other fees. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You know, the other thing too. I just happened to think of it. It's never occurred to me before. There are times over at Mackle park where rooms aren' t available, and people just have to go to the resort. Why couldn' t they be using that upstairs room? It's a nice room. " Mary Ellen Donner, "They do. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "For meetings? Who uses it?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Last year, we had a. . . I believe it was two rentals. The rental fee actually is fifteen dollars an hour. " Gary Franco, "Well it is a minimal use. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Very minimal, but people for some reason. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Don' t you think that could be expanded on?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Sure!" Mr. Gil Mueller, "The people at Mackle Park could say, tell them. Well we don' t have room for you here. However, there is a room with a kitchen, and they could just do just about anything there. " 44 Mary Ellen Donner, "Sure! I mean obviously the size of the room has some bearing on it. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "As a way of increasing the revenue, that's one of the things I had in mind, but hadn' t written down. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Yes. That's a possibility, but again the size of the room is somewhat limiting as to the size of the meetings you could actually host. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, it's almost as big as that small room over at Mackle park when it's divided. " Chairman Kobza, "I think what we need to keep in mind though, and what I was getting at, is what Gary basically says. The improvements will generate the additional revenue to cover the gap. OK To some extent, there are non-tennis items that might help do that. So, that's fine. But, if you do take. . . However you get there, you know, permits are currently twenty percent of our revenues. So, we principally rely upon leagues and all of the charges. So, if you follow that, then even at five dollars and hour resident, that's seventeen hours of additional play time per day that you need to generate to cover the deficit. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Seventeen hours per day?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Divided over five courts. " Chairman Kobza, "Seventeen play hours per day, divided over those five courts. " Gary Franco, "Which is not a lot. It sounds like a lot, but it really isn' t. " Chairman Kobza, "No. That could happen, and that's a yearly average. That's year round. Seventeen hours, including the summertime. So if you take it in the season, most of it, you've got to do significantly better than that. " Mary Ellen Donner, "I'd also like to bring up too, that when we do get to discussing after the improvements are done. When we get to disussing fees, and so on and so forth, it might be of worth to note that there other tennis courts on Marco, and we've made a little bit of comparison study with what they charge and what the City charges, and what Ft. Myers charges. We're kind of running right down the middle of that road. We're not the least expensive, we're not the most expensive, and we have to be sensative to where that saturation point's going to be. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Who's less expensive Mary Ellen?" Mary Ellen Donner, "On public courts for example, at the YMCA on Marco and annual fee of a hundred dollars for a single. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "They've raised their rates though. Haven' t they?" Mary Ellen Donner, "This was done three weeks ago. That's equal to what we are. We're a hundred dollars, they're a hundred dollars. At the City of Naples, for a city resident, for a single it is ninety dollars. You know, Ft. Myers is a hundred and thirty two ($132) . So we are kind of all the way down, in all the areas, and you have to keep in mind who's got hard courts, who's got clay courts, what kind of 45 services (end of tape p2-B) . . . . . .when we get to that point. " Chairman Kobza, "I think what we would do, you know, in all fairness to though, you'd take the additional expenditure and would amortize that into the cost. If you were in business, that's what you'd do. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. Over a period of time. " Chairman Kobza, "Right! We're just treating that fifty as kind of a throw away. " Gary Franco, "It does appear on the ballot sheet somehow, doesn' t it. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. Well that satisifies me. I'm a lot smarter about the Racquet Club. Any other questions at all?" Ms. Geneva Till, "That $30,000.00 over a period of years, that amounts to some money. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, that's true Mrs. Till, but if you read this Productivity Report and you looked at what some of the other facilities throughout the County are costing us that are producing no revenue what so ever, that's miniscule. I'm not condoning that. I personally don' t like it. I don' t think it shoud exist. I think it could be corrected, and I'm not using the other facilities as an example necessarily. But, we are. . . I won' t use the work loosing, but we are expending hundreds of thousands of dollars in other facilities throughout the County. . . Look in your Productivity Report. . . .and getting no revenue. There's no revenue coming from this facility, is there? Here at Golden Gate?" Gary Franco, "Revenue from this facility? Light meter money, but it's minimal. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Light meter money. A quarter for fifteen minutes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "There's no facility coming from the North Naples tennis court?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Just light meters. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "But, there's no revenue coming from the East Naples courts. Eight lighted courts. . . " Mary Ellen Donner, " . . .and lesson fees. " Mr. Gil Mueller, " . . . the costs are astronomical. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Lesson fees, and they do run leagues there as well. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'm not justifying this situation by pointing that out. I merely saying, because I want this improved. I'd be very happy if it were improved. " Chairman Kobza, "I think we're taking the right course of action here. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think so. " Chairman Kobza, "You know, we're trying to narrow the gap a little bit, and if we don' t quite get there, we're still making. . . " 46 Mr. Gil Mueller, "And the irony is, that. . . I will say this one last time, and I promise never to bring that up again. There are 33 courts in the County. Marco Island has two of the worst tennis courts of throe thirty three, and people are paying to play on them, and they are getting all the rest of them free, and they're inexcellent shape. There is and irony there, that I think is just not justifiable. " Chairman Kobza, "Well they're probably some of the old ones. " Mary Ellen Donner, "They were built way back. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I would say that they are probably some of the oldest. But that, doesn' t mean that they shouldn' t be maintained. " Chairman Kobza, "No. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying their probably the oldest. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I wanted to ask you too. Where does Mr. Torroni's salary come in on all this, on this Balance Sheet?" Mary Ellen Donner, "It doesn' t. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "It's not on here at all?" Mary Ellen Donner, "The ten percent includes a portion of his salary. That ten percent administrative up top. A portion of his salary is calculated into that. " Gary Franco, "Mr. Mueller, it's important to know, that he is the Tennis Supervisor throughout Collier County. " Mary Ellen Donner, "The Racquet Sports Supervisor for Collier County" Mr. Gil Mueller, "I thought part of his salary was allocated here somewhere?" Mary Ellen Donner, "It's in that ten percent Administrative. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Just in the ten percent?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Yes sir. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. Straighten something out for me. What is our responsibility as far as the two Barfield courts are concerned. They're on school property obviously. What is our responsiblity there, and what control do we have over those courts?" Mary Ellen Donner, "We maintain those courts. " Gary Franco, "They are in our inventory list, and we are responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of those courts including lighting. Like the replacement of bulbs, and etc. " Mary Ellen Donner, " . . .and meters. " 47 Gary Franco, "So, if it needs to be resurfaced, we do it. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I never really knew if it was a part of the school facility. It isn' t our property, per say. It's school property. The Parks and Recreation Department simply maintains it? OK. Thank you. I have one last thing on the Racquet Club. This is long overdue. It should have been done a long time ago. You're familiar with the Collier County Parks and Recreation Department Registration Application?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Yes sir. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Would you tell me how this thing came about?" Mary Ellen Donner, "That is a Board of County Commissioner approved document for registration, and Finance has mandated to us, that any transaction, monetary transaction, be you registering for programs or in the Racquet Club's case, if you're purchasing an item, for any refund, or transfer that form has got to be filled out. Yes sir. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Have you read this?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Yes I have. Many times. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think, and I'm being facetious, but one morning some lawyer, excuse me Kim. . . " Chairman Kobza, "go ahead" 1 ire Mr. Gil Mueller, " . . .had nothing else that morning but dream this ridiculous thing up. I'd think you'd have to be out of your mind to sign it. In fact, what it does, let's use it in reationship to the Racquet Club. It says, that you shall hold harmless the Collier County Racquet Club for any. . . . I'm going to read it. . . to hold harmless the Collier County Parks and Recreation Department any Employee of the Collier County against any and all claims on behalf of any person or legal entity arising from Applicant's use of premises. It goes on, and on, and on for a full paragraph of legal-ees. It says in effect that you can have hole in your court, you can have hills on your court, you can have broken fences, you can hurt yourself, but you can' t hold the people responsible that are negligent in giving you a proper facility, and I still say that anybody that would sign this has got to be out of his mind. We've had people refuse to play down there. When they look at this, they simply won' t sign it. I think it's ridiculous!" Mary Ellen Donner, "I have been directed by both the Legal Department as well as the Finance Department that this piece of paper has got to be signed. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'm not criticizing you for it. Please don' t mis-understand!" Mary Ellen Donner, "No, I understand, and it can be quite time consuming in actually filling that. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You notice that Kim is refusing to read this, because he didn' t. . . " Chairman Kobza, "No. I've read it. I know it's. . . " 48 Mr. Gil Mueller, "Would you advise your client to sign something like that, Kim? Let me ask you a question? Where else throughout the Parks and Recreation Department are these used?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Everywhere" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Everywhere? Mary Ellen Donner, "In my section, in my programming or anything from registering for a softball team to anytime that you pay. That's the form that you should fill out. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "How about when you launch a boat down at Caxambas? How about when you go to a beach?" Mary Ellen Donner, "I'm only talking for Recreation. I can' t speak for beaches, or. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "It would seem to me, that if that's the premise, then this should be filled out by anybody that uses a Park and Recreation facility, and you say where they pay. " Mary Ellen Donner, "In my section, any program or any. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , I don' t know about your section, but why? I don' t understand this. Why isn' t it used throughout the whole Department then? Mary Ellen Donner, "I don' t know. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Because it's a ridiculous thing! I personnally have not signed this. I will not sign it, because I think that to sign this you have to be a little bit out of balance. I'D LIKE TO HAVE SOMETHING DONE ABOUT THIS. WHAT TO YOU SUGGEST I DO?" Chairman Kobza, "I think maybe the way to approach it, would be to ask the County Attorneys office to. . . " Gary Franco, " . . .for a legal interpretation?" Chairman Kobza, "Right!" Gary Franco, "or a request for legal service or something like that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I don' t need a legal interpretation of this. I can read it, and I know what it says. It says that the County can provide any sort of service they want, any type of facility, let it be run down, but if you get hurt on that facility, you can' t hold them liable. " Ms. Geneva Till, "We do the same in our Church Gil. We have Mothers Morning Out, we have a thing that they said we should have something similar to this so that it releases the Church from responsibility. We have to have mothers sign that. " 49 Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , then, it would seem to me as if something like this is going to be required, we should provide a much safer facility, in many areas than we do. I wouldn' t sign this thing, simply on the basis that it's very likely, well people have gotten hurt at the Racquet Club on those courts. They've fallen as a result of the courts being in bad repair for so long. Well , I'll persue it. Just thought I'd bring it up, and I'm not criticizing you. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, there may be a less ownerous form that could be done and maybe the County Attorney's office could keep it in mind that it maybe scares away some people. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I saw a fellow come into the Parks and Recreation Department, and when he read this he laughed and said you've got to be kidding, and he walked out. I mean that's how laughable it is!" Mary Ellen Donner, "That form was actually developed by the Attorney's office. I believe it was. Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "The objective is to limit the County's liability in situations as which they're not a fault, and so maybe there's another way to accomplish that objective, and maybe the Attorney's Office could take a look, keeping that in mind. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'll persue it. " Chairman Kobza, "Maybe that's something we could convey to them. I don' t know if it takes board action at this time, but maybe you could. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well , I've been asked any number of times by people down there. What about that form, and I keep putting it off, and hiding it, and shoving it under things, and so forth, and I thought this would be a good opportunity to bring it out in the open. So, now I know about it. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. Is there anything else that we have on this item? (no response) OK. We don' t need any action on this item at this point? Correct?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "I don' t" V. NEW BUSINESS/PRESENTATIONS: C. BOAT RAMP AT GOLDEN GATE CANAL: Chairman Kobza, "The next item is the boat ramp at the Golden Gate Canal" Gary Franco, "Mr. Chariman, we've had a request from the BCC to pursue the possibility of constructing a fresh water boat ramp along the Golden Gate Canal. Now that is within the Growth Management Plan. How that all camp about, is. . . There have been some citizens in the North Naples areas which are bass fisherman, and they are having trouble launching their boats to access the canals and waterways. Presently there is no fresh water boat ramp. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You mean that big canal that goes through right over here Gary?" 50 Gary Franco, "Yes. We were going to let them try to develop this little portion of our canal over here where that little boat ramp is. However, the swimming pool is going to encompase that whole area. So, we're asking the Real Property Department to explore the possibility of us purchasing some land and maybe it could be located right over there, we just don' t know, across the canal, for access, for a public boat ramp. We would like some Board direction, approval, or recommendation on that specific subject." Ms. Geneva Till, "A lot of people are launching their boats along that canal or the one going. . . I don' t know the names of that canal, but it's by the parkway, by the bridges there. Every day, every weekend, there's a lot of people using that. It seems there is a need I guess for that. " Gary Franco, "I've never really realized it, but there is a lot of people out there that have expressed a need for a boat launching facility. " Chairman Kobza, "I think we've got to be very careful about the placement of such a facility, and especially as it realtes to residential usages. I just can' t emphasize that enough. " Ms. Geneva Till, "All of those streets empty into that Golden Gate Canal. " Chairman Kobza, "You know, in terms of our priorities, I'm just looking at it in terms of where our priorities fall. " Ms. Geneva Till, "It would be good, if they're going to. Because, that Grey Oaks, that big development, that's saposed to come in there along the 68th. street area. If you were going to do it, now would be the time to get your land. " Chairman Kobza, "How much. . . What kind of costs, or you know, what'd the BCC say? What exactly did they ask us for?" Gary Franco, "They didn' t authorize staff to do it, they just asked us to explore the possibility. If that could be built, and if it was in the Growth Management Plan? At this time we have no dollar figure set for construction or anything like that. That's all got to be taken into consideration. There is no property right now, so the first thing to do is probably you have to. . . If we don' t own a piece of property, we're going to have to go out and buy a piece of property. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "We do not own any property adjacent to, or on the canal at all. It's a long canal!" Gary Franco, "No sir!" Ms. Geneva Till, "My son-in-law owns some of that. They're exploring the possibility that someone in the records had said that we may own a piece of property somewhere on 65th and 64th and 65th over here in the estates. However, I can' t confirm that. We're exploring that possibility and we can let you know about that at later date. But, to the best of my knowledge, I'd have to say, no we don' t with the qualification that maybe we do. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Now Gary, can you explore that and find out whether we do and also come up with some cost figures on that?" 51 Gary Franco, "Yes. Certainly!" Chairman Kobza, "Yes, I think I want to get a feeling for what the real need is. You know, I don' t have any way to make an informed descision on that. How many people would use it? What the real need is?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "They want to bass fish in the canal?" Gary Franco, "At least to launch their boats into the fresh water canals. Yes sir! Because, bass fishing is a pretty big thing down here. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Yes. I can even tell when the Bass are running. I'm on a canal. The boys will run to get their poles, and there they are. " Chairman Kobza. "So we need more information for that. " Gary Franco, "Please tell me what you're saying. You need more information for. Are you directing us to explore that possibility and bring it back to you?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's right. Information concerning cost, the possible location, and particularly the possibility that we have property. " Chairman Kobza, "Right! . . .and also need, and how it relates to other programs. Gary Franco, "So, you're actually in agreement with the board as to. . . Don' t do anything, but explore it and bring it back to both Boards. " Chairman Kobza, "Right! More information on it. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "So we can advise the BCC a little more intelligently. " D. CONCESSIONS AT BOAT RAMPS: Chairman Kobza, "Concessions at the Boat Ramps" Gary Franco, "OK. I believe this was brought up. . . At least some of the information was brought up at the last meeting. On the August 14th Workshop, the BCC had authorized staff to pursue in selected locations, namely 951 boat ramp and Bayview, to use Concessionaires at those sites. Whethere it be Bait and Tackle shops, gasoline, or whatever. To do that, we would also institute a Boat Launch Fee. It would be very similar to Caxambas. To where we get all Boat Launch Fees, but we actually don' t own the Boat Launch Facility. The BCC has authorized us to do that, and and a reminder to the Board, I think they've also authorized Fees and Charges, and Beach realated activities to be reviewed by this Board here. If you remember, the beach activities and the fees. So, they're directing us to explore that possibility of putting the Concession areas in place. At 951 there is a parcel of land that DER owns that we're trying to get. We have to come up with a Management Plan. Mr. Donnegan is going to work on that for us, and we will bring that to this Board. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. We discussed that last meeting. Didn' t we? We were going to come up with some sort of. . . The State required a Management Plan prior to the time that they would make any committment with us. " 4 52 Gary Franco, "Correct! Right!" Chairman Kobza, "I think as part of our Site Plan on Conklin Point we ought to anticipate the possibility of Concessions. " Gary Franco, "Correct! That whole fees and charges, and boat launching, and parking permits. . . I know that this Board is going to explore all those avenues. " Chairman Kobza, "OK!" Ms. Geneva Till, "We should do that, and not post-pone it!" Chairman Kobza, "That's right!" Mr. Gil Mueller, "We can certainly look into the possibility of a Concessionaire at Bayview. There's nothing that would hold that up, is there?" Gary Franco, "No. Not at all. " Mr. Gil Mueller, " . . .and then that could proceed. The others, of course I think really, the placement of a Concessionaire at 951 would depend on whether or not additional property were available, because there's what? Only 17 parking spaces down there. Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "Do you need action from us on this item?" Gary Franco, "We would like a motion or a recommendation from this board for us to say yes we will pursue that possibility if we do have any RFP's, which is Request For Proposals for Concessionaires to use those facilities. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. Let's see then. I'd like to make a motion that we recommmend to the County Commissioners that staff persue information relative to the Concessionaires at the Boat Ramp facilities and particularly to expedite, if possible the investigation into whether or not the State Department's in on 951 . Is that what's necessary? Is that what you need basically?" Ms. Geneva Till, " . . .and Bayview. " Gary Franco, " . . .and Bayview. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes I was thinking of Bayview, I didn' t say it. " Gary Franco, "We need authorization to pursue both of those avenues. While we're also talking about this, let me bring up the issue, this does not address Lake Trafford. We a recommendation from the Board concerning Lake Trafford also about fees and charges. However, I would like to remind the Board that there is a Concession in place there at Lake Trafford. A little bait and tackle shop, which makes a lot of money. They're the only game in town. There's limited parking at Lake Trafford for us. Maybe to go in there and try to put in another Concessionaire, it may not be a wise move. " Chairman Kobza, "Let's do the three. " 53 Gary Franco, "So, you might want to encompase that all in one. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Begin to think that maybe we should do like we did originally. It's been years ago. It's to jump in the mini-van and take a look at some of these places after Mr. Clendenon comes aboard. To familiarize him, I think that would be a good thing. It would be helpful for him and also for me. " Ms. Geneva Till, "It would for me too, because I don' t even know this Conklin Point. " Gary Franco, "I think we've upgraded a lot of our facilities, and I think you may be impressed upon what we have done, so maybe it's about time we did take a little tour. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "There's no question about it, I sure we will be. Maybe we ought to think about something. What do you think, Kim?" Chairman Kobza, "Absolutely! I couldn' t agree more with you. I don' t think we're going to get the whole County in one day. I think we should try to district it. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Shall we plan something definite? Would that be a possibility, Gary?" Gary Franco, "Yes it would. It would be a real possibility!" Mr. Gil Mueller, "I remember the last time, we had to beg, borrow, or steal a van from somewhere. Can you pull the same act?" Gary Franco, "We may be able to get a County van. I know Murdo's got a van and he wouldn' t have any objection to us getting his van. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Fleet management has an Aerostar Van that's available for use. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Maybe we ought to think about it. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Yes. Before the weeds come up. For my information, I need to know where these things are. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, I think we're overdue for a trip to North Naples for instance. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I agree. Immokalee too. Maybe hit the beach things. Maybe we could plan tentativly on doing this in October. I would really like sort of a visual refresher course. " Chairman Kobza, "Ok. Well, let's do that. Let's plan on it. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Could we take an area, like North Naples, and then go to someplace there and have our meeting. Look it over, and then, so we know what we're talking about. " Chairman Kobza, "Let's do that. We could have our meeting maybe in the school site in North Naples. The other possibility is the Community Center, but that's going to be done in December is it?" 54 Mary Ellen Donner, "mid-November" Gary Franco, "The Community Centers, just for the Board's information, they're running roughly two months behind schedule. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Why. Too much rain?" Gary Franco, "Well the weather is one thing, and the Contractor does think that'he can make up the time. So, that is not unusual for the Contractor to be behind schedule. Let's plan on doing that in the October meeting. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, what I was going to say, is maybe in November we can go to the Community Center and have our meeting. " Ms. Geneva Till, " . . .have our meeting. Look at the County property in that area, and then have our meeting. " Chairman Kobza, "We had a motion, on the Concessions, is it three boat ramps? So, do we have a second on that?" Ms. Geneva Till, "I'll second that. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. Do we have any discussion on that motion? (no response) OK. All in favor signify by saying I. That passes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Gary, give me a time factor on this. A time factor as far as giveing Mr. Clendenon aboard on this thing. Do you think he'll be here for the next meeting?" 4 Gary Franco, "He may be here. I think that the other gentleman that approved, but then declined the thing. He was real close to being in there by the next month I think. It was a couple of weeks. " Chairman Kobza, "We'll get him in right away. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Good!" E. DESIGNATED SWIMMING AREAS: Gary Franco, "Yes. Mr. Chairman, this pertains to Tigertail beach. Persuant to the Florida Administrative Code. We designated swimming areas for safe swimming only area at Tigertail Beach. We need direction or approval, and a public meeting from PARAB and also the BCC to persue that as part of the requirement for the Administrative Code Florida to go ahead and actually construct that. " Ms. Geneva Till, "What does that mean now?" Gary Franco, "OK. That means that there is some Engineering fees to the tune of approximately $1900 (rough figures) . Another $1900 to actually put the markers in place. It would be two pilings with a symbol on top of it. OK? In which the Coast Gaurd would enforce that for a designated swimming area within those confines of Tigertail beach. " i 55 Chairman Kobza, "Does that seperate them from the Boat traffic?" Gary Franco, "Tentatively we are going to move the boats down to the right hand side and let the boats go out through that little pass, or something up there, and a set safe swimming area would be designated between Sand Dollar Island and the Existing Public Beach. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "The boats, the jet skis, the submarines. " Chairman Kobza, "A question on the Jet Skis. Now, are they going to be allowed in the safe swimming area?" Gary Franco, "No. Designated swimming only. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Somebody, Kim, is going to get sliced up. " Chairman Kobza, "Yes. I was down there for the Chamber of Commerce. The Chamber of Commerce Seminar at the Marriot, the State one, and walked down there. Yes. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "The boats come zipping in and out of those swimmers, and the jet skis. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. Do we have a motion?" Ms. Geneva Till , "Oh. I'll make a motion for that. I think we should have that appear in A. instead of E. It was an important one that we do follow through. " Mr. Gil Mueller seconded the motion. Chairman Kobza, "We have a motion, and a second. Do we have any other discussion at all? (no response) All in favor signify by saying I. It's approved" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Incidentally, you don' t want some sort of obnoxious boys bouncing around out there. What type of gaurds or bouys or whatever put in. . . Are there just things floating in the water. Is that what they do, Gary?" Gary Franco, "No sir. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Is there a chain, or some sort link between them?" Gary Franco, "There are no bouys. They are markers, or pilings, sunk into the ground. So, all you will see, is a piling with a symbol on top of it, and another piling with a symbol on top of it. There's only going to be two places there. So, anything within the confines of that, that's where you can swim and the Coast Gaurd and everybody else will be able to enforce that now. So actually the placing of bouys because someone will cut them, or take them, or whatever. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Will they move some of the Concessionaire's equipment down, possibly to the North or to the right as you face the water so they will launch from a little safer distance?" Gary Franco, "They will launch from a safer distance and it will also give the beach goers some more prime beach area to bath in. " 56 VI. REPORTS/UPDATES: Chairman Kobza, "OK. Let's go to our Report/Update list just very briefly. " A. BONITA BEACH PARK: Chairman Kobza, "We've talked about Bonita Beach Park. . . " B. RECYCLING: Chairman Kobza, " . . . the Recycling Program I assume is working in full force. " Gary Franco, "Continuing. Yes. " C. TIGERTAIL VEGETATION: Chairman Kobza, "Tigertail Vegetation. Did we get that squared up?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. I think we did. The latest I've heard at least was Thursday. Shanahan talked to Harry Huber, and Harry said that they were still in the Mitigation Process and couldn' t do anything further with the mitigation. Until Rookery was completed, they couldn' t do any more at Tigertail. Is that accurate Gary?" Gary Franco, "Correct. Until the mitigation at Rookery Bay is complete, we will not do any clearing of that Vegetation line at Tigertail. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "What are we doing at Rookery now?" Gary Franco, "I really am not aware of too much of that project, but there is some type of mitigation we have to perform to clear that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes, I know. It hasn' t started yet?" Gary Franco, "I'm not sure, Gil. I really don' t know, I can find out for you though. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Would you just find out for the next meeting?" Gary Franco, "Sure!" D. IMMOKALEE AIRPORT PARK BATHROOMS: Chairman Kobza, "Immokalee Airport Park bathrooms. Are those completed?" Gary Franco, "Those are completed. We may want to take that off of the Report/Update list. " Chairman Kobza, "Let's go ahead and do that. " E. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING: Chairman Kobza, "I believe we addressed that. Would it be safe to take that off of the Report?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, Gary's going to get some information on that. " 57 Gary Franco, "Well, you may want to leave that on the Report list, because we will come back to you periodically with Concessionaire, and things about parking. " 4 F. POOLS (1.5 MILLION, COMPETITIVE): Chairman Kobza, "Question. Now that the Golden Gate pool issue. . . Well, in light of the BCC's action yeaterday on the YMCA, does that impact what we're going to do on the pool site?" Gary Franco, "I have nothing to indicate that. As far as I know, we're still going to try to pursue, and explore the possibility of constructing the competitive swimming pool here at a cost of 1 .5 billion dollars. " Ms. Geneva Till, "I hope we're going to stay with that, because all of the switching around and all, we're going to have enough. . . . . . two of them at least with the constant. . . " Chairman Kobza, "Is that the 25 meter pool?" Gary Franco, "It's the competitive. " Chairman Kobza, "Instead of the 50 meter pool?" Gary Franco, "Correct. " Ms. Geneva Till, " . . .50 now. " IChairman Kobza, "OK" G. VANDERBILT BEACH ACCESSES AND PARKING: Chairman Kobza, "Vanderbilt Beach Access, I don' t think we need to talk about. " H. COMMUNITY CENTERS: Chairman Kobza, "Community Centers we're two months behind. I had eluded to it before. I had heard that there was some problem between our architectural and our engineering on that job in North Naples. " Gary Franco, "There were some, Mr. Chairman, problems with the structural design of the hip trusses located on the roofing of that facility. However, that has been resolved. That is one of those type of situations where we've talked about it before, where the construction Management comes in, and they may have to go on-site and look and revise their drawings to make that thing work. So, yes, there was some problems, but they have been rectified. " Chairman Kobza, "Was Wilson, Miller, not on top of the Construction Management, or what's the story there?" Gary Franco, "Well, again, Wilson Miller was to provide professional services. Sometimes when you draw something in the Construction Design plans and actually try to go out in the field, it doesn' t work, so you may have to revise the plans or make field adjustments, and that happens in construction from time to time. " 58 Mr. Gil Mueller, "The trusses weren' t made?" Gary Franco, "Yes they were, but the hip, where they joined up, up there, the angle wasn' t right. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Were the trusses made according to specifications?" Gary Franco, "Yes they were. Everything was made to specifications, however, it didn' t fit. So they have to make some field adjustments. " Chairman Kobza, "Is there additional cost to that?" Gary Franco, "No" Chairman Kobza, "Not to the County?" Gary Franco, "Not to the County. " Chairman Kobza, "So, somebody else has to eat that, other than the County. OK" I. FOOTBALL/SOCCER FIELD IMMOKALEE: Chairman Kobza, "Football/Soccer Field Immokalee?" Gary Franco, "That project had it's final completion. We may want to take that off of the Report/Updat list. We took ownership last Thursday, and we will let the Board know when we're going to have our formal dedication for that facility. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. I really want know about that too. When that is, because the last thing in Immokalee I think they'll do, so I want to know. OK. " J. FRANK E. MACKLE JR. BUILDING EXPANSION: Chairman Kobza, "The building expansion is completed, hopefully. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Yes. I haven' t seen it, been over there for about a week or ten days. Two things actually. For quite a number of weeks, you come into the room, on the left hand side, there was a big strip that was unpainted, and that went on for weeks, and weeks, and weeks. It's a minor thing, but I'd like to see the building a hundred percent done instead of 99. Do you know if that's ever been taken care of?" Gary Franco, "The letter that we signed was of substantial completion. They have two weeks from. . . . Murdo signed it just before he went on vacation, Bill Flynn signed it today. They have two weeks for final completion to rectify all those little minor, unpainted finished surfaces, or peeling of paint off the walls, or any type of clean-up work in there. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Otherwise, I think it looks great!" Gary Franco, "So, within two weeks we will sign the final completion. " 59 Chairman Kobza, "Is the mission accomplished on that? Did it come off the way you though it would, and all that? Was it worth it?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "You know, I hate to dwell on trivia, but I will. Maybe this is just me, but see what you think of it. You have this big beautiful building. It's a meeting room, mostly used I would say by adults. All over the walls you have these little crayon drawings. There's something about it that doesn' t set well with me. You've got all these crazy little drawings plastered up over all the walls throughout. Now, maybe that doesn' t bother anybody else. But, somehow, it looks like a nursery, rather than a meeting room. Does that bother anybody else?" Ms. Geneva Till, "How was it used?" Mary Ellen Donner, "It's a multi-use purpose. " Ms. Geneva Till, "It's adults that's using it. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Couldn' t there be a buletin board, you know, maybe with a frame on it, . . .so that can be restricted to a given area rather than covering all of the walls. " Mary Ellen Donner, "I will mention that to Gina. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'm not the only one that feels that way. There was quite a bit of comment at a recent meeting they had there. It's not a big issue, but I thought I'd mention it. " Mary Ellen Donner, "That's OK. We'll take care of that. Consider it done, and 4 116 Summer Camp is over. " Chairman Kobza, "OK" K. CONKLIN POINT BOAT RAMP: Chairman Kobza, "Conklin Point Boat Ramp we've talked about. " L. LISTING OF DONATED PROPERTY: Chairman Kobza, "Listing of Donated Property, has there been any follow-up on that?" Gary Franco, "I don' t have anymore information on that on that one particular subject. " Chairman Kobza, "I do want to follow up on that, I don' t want to let it die. I think that's an important issue to have an inventory of what property that we have as Parks, are available to us in the Parks Department, so then we can make some decisions on how to use it. " M. IMMOKALEE CHILD CARE CENTER: Chairman Kobza, "Immokalee Child Care Center? What was that all about?" Gary Franco, "I have no more information on that. I'm sorry. " 60 now Chairman Kobza, "OK" N. CLAM PASS PARK: Chairman Kobza, "Clam Pass Park, I think we talked about" Ms. Geneva Till, "Did we tough that up here with the Amendment for utilities at Clam Pass?" Gary Franco, "Yes we did. " VII. NEW BUSINESS: Chairman Kobza, "OK. Is there anything else? I may just mention one thing to the Board. I did get chance to talk with Commissioner Volpe about the meeting <>. One 0 of his suggetions was that we should wait for Board Direction to us. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Oh, all right!" Chairman Kobza, "Not to just go off on our own and do it, but to have the Board ask us to do it, and so that's probably a good comment. I think they need to define what our mission is so that we have a clear understanding of what issues . . . " Mr. Gil Mueller, "But, too often Kim, and certainly I imagine we've followed that directive. But, too often the Board is inclined to make up their mind on things, and then we hear about it two months later. Then we sit an contemplate and make a recommendation that just is you know, is after the fact. I don' t want that to happen. I was goint to suggest that perhaps the subject, you know, we agreed in the last meeting, that we would take these individual issues in the Productivity Study one or two depending upon their scope in each of our meetings. As we did for example, the Racquet Club and this one. I was going to suggest that User fees would probably the most likely subject matter to take up in our next meeting. Now, maybe that isn' t such a good idea. Maybe it should be something else. " Chairman Kobza, "What would you think of requesting direction from the County Board on what they would like us to do on user fees. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Yes. So that they're aware that we're ready to go on that one. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "So that they know we're thinking about it, and we're discussing it, and maybe it will keep them from. . . " Chairman Kobza, "I think the request is, we're available to meet with respect to those issues of beach usage, permit, you know user fees at the beaches. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Some consistency as far as fees are concerned throughout them. " Chairman Kobza, " . . .and just request direction from them as to the scope of what they would like us to do. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think that's a good idea. " Chairman Kobza, "Do you want to make a motion?" 61 Mr. Gil Mueller, "You make the motion. YOu put it nicely. " Chairman Kobza, "Mrs. Till, would you like to that effect?" Ms. Geneva Till, "I'll make a motion that we request direction from the Board of County Commissioners as to what they would like to have us consider regarding fees and usage fees for our parks. " Chairman Kobza, "Including the beaches. OK A secon to that?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think we should say, fees throughout the entire Park and Recreation Department. " Chairman Kobza, "OK. I'm with you there. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'd like to there that again. This is important. Can you read this back to us Ramona, Please?" Ramona Daugs, "Geneva Till motioned to request direction from the Board of County Commissioners as to what they would like to have PARAB consider on fees and usage fees throughout the entire Parks and Recreation Department. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do you think that's sufficient?" Chairman Kobza, "I think, you know, what you're going to find is most of the issues that we're after are in the beaches for starters. If we do have public hearings that are at night at public meetings, we probably want people. . . . . . the beach environment. Specifically, we've done a lot in terms of softball fees, the setting rates in our Community Centers. " Ms. Geneva Till, "Well, we've already said this about Barefoot Beach with fees, and Lee County. . . to follow to that. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I hope we're wording that right. " Chairman Kobza, "Well, I think they'll get the idea. That we're asking them for some direction. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Then what if they say, no. Don' t do it Ramona Daugs, "Do you want me to leave fees out of there, and just put user fees. " Ms. Geneva Till, "I think that would be enough. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "User fees throughout all of the County Parks and Recreation facilities. " Chairman Kobza, "Maybe in accordance with the Productivity Committee's recommendation. Maybe we better leave it as it is. OK. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "You could say considering the Productivity. . . Consistent with the investigation of the Productivity Study. Well maybe you'reI just want them to get the right idea from us. " 62 Chairman Kobza, "Why don' t we leave it at user fees?" Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. Alright. Let's leave it that way. OK" Mr. Gil Mueller seconded the motion. Chairman Kobza, "So a motion and a second. OK. Do we have any other discussion? (no response) All in favor signify by saying I. The motion carries. Chairman Kobza, "A motion for adjournment?" Mary Ellen Donner, "I have one more thing. It won' t take long. The Florida Park and Recreation Association, which is the professional Association of. . . (end of Tape 3-A) . . .conference down on Marco Island, at Marco Island Marriott, starting the third, the day after Labor Day, and going through the eighth. The general opening session is going to be held on Wednesday, the fourth at 6:30 and Senator Fred Dudley is going to be addressing, and I wanted to extend and invitation to the Parks and Recreation Advisory Board, that if you are interested in attending. These Park and Recreation People are from all over the State, and there'll be 650 professionals in the field down at Marco Marriott. It begins on the third, runs through the Sunday, but the actual opening session is on Wednesday at 6:30 and if anybody is interested in attending, we'd be more than pleased to have you there. " Chairman Kobza, "Now, is this a group of seminars?" Mary Ellen Donner, "Yes. They are professional. Everything from Parks, to Recreation, to Environmental, to Park Rangers. All sorts of sessions run concurrently throughout the day. " Chairman Kobza, "Geez! That's nex week. " Mary Ellen Donner, "Next week. Starts the day after Labor Day. " Ms. Geneva Till, "If we can go to some of the seminars that would be held, that would be beneficial, it seems to me. " Chairman Kobza, "Is there a cost. . . " Mary Ellen Donner, "For example on the opening session, you'd be. . . This district, of which I am the District VI Director. We would pick up any costs that would be incurred for an opening session. As far as the other sessions, depending on what you wanted to go to, I can give you a listing of what's going to be offered, you could either co-ordinate it through myself, or I'm sure I could work out a deal. There shouldn' t be any cost involved. " Chairman Kobza, "I would like to know what's offered, I think. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "I would like to know also. " Mary Ellen Donner, "I can give you that on your way out. " Chairman Kobza, "My only problem, is, I think I've got meetings then. " I 63 Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I don' t know, I have an invitation to play tennis, in Palm Springs next week, and I kind of think that's what I'm going to do. But, I wish I could attend. " Mary Ellen Donner, "It runs all week. " Chairman Kobza, "I may do that. I may go to that. " Mary Ellen Donner, "I'll give you the information. " VIII. ADJOURNMENT: Chairman Kobza, "OK. A motion to adjourn?" Ms. Geneva Till, "I so motion. " Chairman Kobza, "Motion by Mrs. Till. Second by Mr. Mueller. All in favor signify by saying I. Adjourned. " Mr. Gil Mueller, "Gary, I think you and Mary Ellen handled this beautifully!" MS:rtd:003699 64