Minutes 07/24/1991 R Parks & Recreation
Advisory Board
( PARAB )
Minutes
July 24 , 1991
MINUTES
'10 PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office
Naples, Florida
Wednesday, July 24, 1991
PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman
Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice Chairman
Ms. Geneva Till
Ms. Cherryle Thomas
I. CALL TO ORDER:
The meeting was called to order at 1:35 p.m.
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG:
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Ms. Geneva Till, motioned to accept the minutes. Mr. Gil Mueller seconded the
motion. Chairman Kobza said, "OK, we have a motion for approval of the minutes of
the meeting of July 24, 1991 and the minutes of Wednesday, June 26, 1990. There's
a second to the motion by Mr. Mueller, is there any discussion at all? OK There
being no discussion, all in favor signify by saying I. . . Opposed. . . motion passes
unanimously. "
ilk IV. REQUESTS FOR DISCUSSION - SPECIFIC UPDATE ITEMS:
Chairman Kobza said, "The next item is requests for discussion of specific update
items. In other words, highlighting items from the Reports/Updates list that we
would like to see discussed after our New Business/Presentations. On each of the
three Agenda Items under New Business today, we have a fairly significant amount of
material, and as I understand it, prepared presentations on the each of the three
items. " Mr. Murdo Smith said, "Yes. From what I understand, the Productivity
Committee Members who met with our Department, are here today to make a
presentation to the Board on their findings. " Then we have a presentation on
1 Bluebill, with a fairly significant discussion there. The Park Ranger Program will
be a fairly significant discussion. At this time, Mr. Murdo Smith introduced Ms.
Martha Skinner, Acting Public Services Administrator.
A. PRODUCTIVITY COMMITTEE REPORT:
Chairman Kobza, "Just by way of introduction, we reviewed the report as a Board,
and we had a special meeting on July 10, 1991, to discuss different aspects of the
report. There were quite a few questions from Board Members on virtually every
item. Mr. Brad Estes and Mr. Don York presented a report from the Productivity
Committee. Questions were asked by the Board Members regarding the report.
Mr. Don York said, "Let me preface before I start, that we tried to do a review of
this Department with as much objectivity as possible, and the report was by no
means meant to be a criticism of the staff or this body or anybody else. The only
thing we are trying to do, is what you're trying to do, and that's help the
4 Air
Citizens of Collier County. With that in mind, I will just kind of give you a
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rough brush of what we looked at, and then if you have any specific questions
Brad and I will be pleased to address them. We looked at a number of things, and
after we did, there were a number conclusions that we drew and be they good or bad,
they were conclusions that we drew. Consequently those conclusions became part of
this Report. It is our opinion that what is needed in Parks and Recreation, not
restricted to Parks and Recreation but probably to all branches of the County
Government. In the bureaucratic function, the day to day activities of any
governmental body, there is never an attitude toward making. . . or, an
entrepreneurial attitude. The problems that as we saw them, and believe me we've
tried to be objective as possible, is lack of consistency in fees. We have five
boat ramps, and we charge at one. Some beach access points we charge at, some we
do not. The Tennis facility on Marco Island, as we view it, is that we're
underwriting User Fees with County money. In essence, overall, that was kind of
what we saw. You saw specifics in the report, and we would be glad to address
those or any particular items. But, overall, we feel that the County has an
obligation to provide the citizenry of Collier County with the Capital Projects
(i.e. , Parks, Beach Access) , but we don' t feel that should be underwritten by the
tax payers. We feel that the people who use those facilities ought to pay for
them. The Commissioners do not agree on that in totality, as we have heard lately.
Another specific example would be the $96,000.00 a year we pay to the City of
Naples for Collier residents to use their beaches. As a County resident, if I want
to go to the City beach, I ought to be willing to pay for it and not have the
County pay for it. That is kind of what we came up with, and if you have specific
questions, we would be glad to address them"
The Board asked questions of Mr. York and Mr. Estes. Ms. Cherryle Thomas asked,
"Was a major concern of this committee, more staff or this concern that we're
spending money and not being able to justify the money being spent?"
Mr. Don York answered, "The overall concern of the committee was to see how
effectively you are spending tax dollars. In not only Parks and Recreation, but in
all Departments that come under the auspices of the County Manager. We are not
permitted to go into the Constitutional officers such as the Sheriff, or the Clerk
of the Courts, or any of those. These Departments are strictly those that report
to, or are under the jurisdiction of the County Manager. Our main concern was 'How
effectively are we spending tax dollars?"
Further discussion entailed beach fees, parking fees, the Ranger program, and the
Beach Task Force.
Chairman Kobza said, "Maybe our approach can be this. We recommended that we be
the core committee of the Beach Access and Beach Issues Committee and we were going
to hold public meetings in the Fall. I think this issue certainly falls into that
set of issues that we would examine, and invite public comment on. So, basically
what we're going to do is put all of the beach issues on our Agenda for a series of
public meetings through the Fall (September, October, November) and see if we can' t
come up with a collective policy or set of recommendations to the BCC for beach
policy, and it probably will incorporate many of the recommendations that you've
had as the Productivity Committee. But, I think that we owe it to the public,
because it's such an emotional issue, to hold some more public hearings where they
are well advertised and they attend them because we're going to hear a lot of
people on this issue. I think it would be a mistake to start making
recommendations without doing that. I think that's probably the approach we should
1 • take, and we will go down to the County building, and get the meeting room.
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It was agreed that Chairman Kobza would take the responsibility for meeting with
Commissioner Volpe on that issue, and tell him what we want to do, and then maybe
we can coordinate, and he can report back to the Parks & Recreation Advisory Board
at the August meeting. Mr. Gill Mueller asked about the memorandum from
Commissioner Volpe on the subject of the Beach Task Force. Mr. Murdo Smith
explained that Martha Skinner had a meeting with the County Manager, and expressed
PARAB's request to be the core of any committee set up on the beach issues. The
recommendation was that PARAB will be the committee, and if they want to invite
additional members as was outlined, it is up to PARAB.
Chairman Kobza suggested that he will meet with the Commissioner, meet with the
Manager's Office, and iron out that type of issue. He will also establish a
meeting schedule, and report back to the Parks & Recreation Advisory Board at the
August meeting. He is also assuming that everyone on the Parks & Recreation
Advisory Board will take the time to be at say, three evening meetings.
B. BLUEBILL PROPERTY UPDATE:
Mr. Art Jacob, president of the Vanderbilt Beach Property Owners Association was
present for this discussion. An Executive Summary regarding "presentation to the
Board of County Commissioner of bids received on that property know as the Bluebill
site" was passed out to each PARAB Member. The recommmendation by staff was that
the Board of County Commissioners review the bids received on the Bluebill site and
direct staff to proceed with Option Number Five as outlined within this Executive
Summary. If certain bids submitted for the purchase of the Bluebill site are
accepted, staff requests that the Board of County Commissioners authorize its
Chairman to execute Real Estate Agreements with that or those parties selected and
• any other documents required to proceed with closing the transaction with the
approved purchaser.
Mr. Jacob made a presentation on behalf of the Vanderbilt property owners
association. A long discussion took place concerning the Bluebill property and
access to the beaches in Vanderbilt area.
Chairman Kobza said, "For purposes of the record, I need to state my conflict, and
I filed a memorandum of conflict when the Bluebill property came before PARAB 1-1/2
to 2 years ago, and I won' t vote on any issues that relate to Bluebill property
under the Conflict Statute. However, the Statute does provide that I can engage in
discussion regarding the issue.
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Well then maybe our recommendation to the BCC should be to
have a study made either by an in-house person or an independent to determine
whether or not it should be sold individually, whether it should be sold as a
whole, at what point in time it should be sold, but the basic recommendation being
that it should be sold and let them decide the method that they're going to use. "
Mr. Murdo Smith asked if PARAB could add, "The refunding of the 306 FUND" to that.
To reimburse those funds that have been borrowed for Conklin Point. Mr. Gil
Mueller agreed. Mr. Gil Mueller commented, "That is a motion" Chairman Kobza
restated the motion to read, "A recommendation to the Board of County Commissioner
to, (A) Sell the property, (B) Replenish the 306 FUND, and (C) to obtain. . . " Mr.
Gil Mueller finished restating the motion to finish reading, " . . .in-house expertise
• or outside expertise to determine when the property should be sold, how it should
be sold, merchandised, etc. But, the basic recommendation being that the property
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should be sold. Ms. Geneva Till seconded, no further discussion, and the motion
Qpassed 3-0 with one abstention.
C. PARK RANGER:
3:45 p.m. Mr. Murdo Smith, "We have a short presentation, we'll go through some of
the aspects of the Park Ranger Program, and then we'd like to take you outside to
introduce you to April our horse, and show what April can do. " Ms. Nan Klein, made
a presentation regarding the Park Ranger Program. A discussion and answer period
followed. Items discussed included: Ranger duties, responsibility and
certification. Several questions were asked by Board Members pertaining to the
Ranger Program. A decision was made to continue the meeting, then proceed outside
to participate in a demonstration of the mounted patrol.
D. MR. THRALLS LACK OF APPOINTMENT:
• Mr. Murdo Smith, "Prior to being approved by the Board of County Commissioners, Mr.
Thralls called and said that he would like to be removed from contention. The BCC
is now re-advertising for that position. "
PARKING METERS-BUDGET REVIEW:
The County Board has been going through budget reviews. Staff had asked for a
certain amount of money in the Budget Review for parking meters. During review, it
was removed. But, the Board, because of the Productivity Committee's report,
requested our department to re-evaluate the issue. So staff prepared a very
comprehensive Boat Ramp report and it was handed out to each PARAB member for
e" review.
951 BOAT RAMP EXPANSION:
Mr. Gil Mueller, "We were going to look into the possibility of expanding the 951
boat ramp. Mr. Murdo Smith, "That's in this report. If we want to use the land to
expand parking, we must come up with a design to send to the State for approval. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "You mean use the property that might be available. " Mr. Murdo
Smith, "The State owns the property. The State wants to see a design so they can
give their approval or denial on what we want to use it for. It would cost some
dollars to do. So, if that's what the Board, or the County Manager wishes us to
do, we will proceed. "
PARAB'S AUGUST MEETING:
A discussion took place concerning the date and time for the August meeting. The
next meeting will be August 28 at 2:00. All succeeding meetings will be the fourth
Wednesday at 2:00 thereafter.
4:50 p.m.
25 METER POOL:
Chairman Kobza, "Murdo, quick question for you. Did the BCC decide to accept your
25 meter pool?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. " Chairman Kobza, "And that was partially
Cif because the YMCA is going to build a pool out here. " Mr. Murdo Smith, "No, I
believe the County Manager had expressed some concerns about the maintenance and
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upkeep costs of the larger pool, plus the additional construction costs. "
TIGERTAIL HAND RAKING:
Mr. Gil Mueller, "May I bring up two very positive things? First of all, as Murdo
knows, they raked Tigertail Beach. Hand raked it, Saturday, and there's a 400
percent improvement. It looks great! They're coming back out on Sunday to rake it
again. . .
FRANK MACKLE EXPANSION:
. . .secondly, was at Mackle yesterday,y y, and they are putting the finish painting
on and there is very little to do other than to clean up, and that's looking really
great! So a lot of progress is being made in both instances. I do think that they
are having a major meeting there tomorrow night incidentally, and there still is a
lot of windows that they have taken out which they're going to have to move before
that meeting. "
•
VIII. ADJOURNMENT:
Mr. Gil Mueller motioned to have a belated adjournment, after the horses. Ms. Geneva Till
seconded, and the motion passed unanimously with a 3-0 vote.
MS:rtd:003588
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MINUTES l/er510
PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office � `�, \
Naples, Florida `}l( i�/)
Wednesday, July 24, 1991
PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman
Mr. Gil Mueller, Vice-Chairman
Ms. Geneva Till
Ms. Cherryle Thomas
I. CALL TO ORDER:
The meeting was called to order at 1:35 p.m.
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG:
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
(This meeting was started without the tape being turned on to record, or the
secretary being present. So, this is where my minutes start.) Ms. Geneva Till
said, " . . .have decided that it was a good thing for us. . . "
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "OK. That was. . . The committee was referring to the
Productivity Committee, they had made a recommendation that we hire the Recreation
people back, and they had some concerns about the YMCA using our facilities. "
Ms. Geneva Till, "Well did we voice rejection on that?"
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "You had, I believe in the past meeting had recommended that
the YMCA be able to use our facilities. I was just giving a report to you of what
the Productivity had some concerns. . . "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "We discussed that last meeting, didn' t we Murdo? Or, last June
or July 10?"
Mr. Gary Franco said, " . . .prior to last meeting. "
Ms. Geneva Till, "Yeah. the time before. We did that. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Brad Estes and Don York are here from the Productivity, so I'm
sure that later on, if you want to get into any questions they'll be able to. . . I
believe that was a true statement. . . "
Chairman Kobza, "Can we have a motion?"
Ms. Geneva Till , "Well , I move that we accept them. "
Chairman Kobza, "If you want to take a couple extra minutes, I don' t want to rush
you through it. "
Ms. Geneva Till, "Well, I agree with that. "
1
Chairman Kobza, "Mrs. Till, would you like a couple of minutes?"
Ms. Geneva Till , "Yeah. Let's see. All right!"
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Wouldn' t the discussion of Wednesday, July 10, regarding the YMCA
be here in the Minutes?"
Chairman Kobza, "This is. . . she. . . "
Mr. Gil Mueller, " . . .if there's any question. . . on the very bottom, there's some
question about that Mrs. Till, on page one, if you're still concerned. "
Ms. Geneva Till said, " . . .cause we're going to take this item by item and discuss
this Productivity Report. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I believe it was agreed in the last meeting, that we would
select specific areas of the Productivity Report, and then discuss them. I think
it was implied that maybe we could pick two, and discuss them each meeting,
depending upon their importance and the extent of whatever discussion was necessary
we wills pick one two or three, and discuss them each meeting. That was my
understanding of what we agreed. Was that the basicly accurate?"
Ms. Geneva Till, "Yeah. That is right. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Are we waiting for a motion to OK the minutes, or what?"
Ilib. Chairman Kobza, "We wanted to give Mrs. Till and extra couple review them. "
Ms. Geneva Till , "Well , I'm going to go with my motion that we accept these
Minutes. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Well , I' ll second the motion. "
Chairman Kobza said, "OK, we have a motion for approval of the minutes of the
meeting of July 24, 1991 and the minutes of Wednesday, June 26, 1990. There's a
second to the motion by Mr. Mueller is there any discussion, at all? OK There
being not discussion, all in favor signify by saying I. . . Opposed. . . and that
motion passes unanimously. "
IV. REQUESTS FOR DISCUSSION - SPECIFIC UPDATE ITEMS:
Chairman Kobza said, "The next item is requests for discussion of specific update
items. In other words highlighting items from the Reports/Updates list that we
would like to see discussed after our New Business/Presentations. I think that one
think that I'd just like to mention to the board. On each of the three Adgenda
Items under New Business today, we have a fairly significant amount of material,
and as I understant is, prepared presentaions on the each of the three items. Is
that. . . "
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "Yes. From what I understand, the Productivity Committee
Members who met with our Department, are here today to make a presentation to the
Board on their findings, and so forth"
Chairman Kobza, "OK. Then we have a presentation on Bluebill, with a fairly
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significant discussion there. The Park Ranger Program will be a fairly significant
•
discussion. We have a presentation that is going to be made on that as well. Am I
correst?"
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "Right!"
Chairman Kobza said, "OK. So, for purposes of this meeting we have a lot to get
accomplished in a fairly short period of time, and what I think we should try to do
is moderate our discussions with that in mind, so that maybe we spend an hour on
each one of those three items. Then we also have to discuss Mr. Thralls and that
appointment or lack of appointment or whatever happened there, in addition to
anything else. So, with that understanding, let's move forward, and try to
complete the presentations, and then discuss Mr. Thralls appointment, and then
let's see where we are at in terms of time at that point. And we can see if we
have more time for Report/Updates or anything else any Board member wants to
discuss. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "At what point shall we bring up this potential Beach Task Force
Situation? I would like a clarification of that. "
Chairman Kobza, "OK. And, so that will be one of our Report/Update items that we
add at the end of our Agenda. OK?"
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "OK. Very good! Thank you!"
Chairman Kobza, "OK. Let's go on to the next item on the Agenda. This item, under
New Business/Presentations, V. , A. , will be the Productivity Committee Report, and
as I understand it, Murdo, basically what we're going to have, is a presentation or
a just a response to questions that we might have about the report from the
committee members. I that?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I thought that Brad and Don would be here to make a
presentation. . . "
Chairman Kobza, "OK. That would be great! I'd very much like to welcome Brad
Estes, and Don York. You're the subcommittee members on the. . . appointed by the
BCC on Productivity And Efficiency Committee as examine Parks and Recreation. "
At this time, Mr. Murdo Smith introduced Ms. Martha Skinner, Acting Public Service
Administrator to those of whom did not know her.
A. PRODUCTIVITY COMMITTEE REPORT:
Chairman Kobza, "Just by way of introduction, and maybe for. . . We reviewed the
report at a Board, and we had a special meeting on July 10, 1991, to discuss
different aspects of the report. There were quite a few questions from Board
Members on virtually every item. So, I'm sure you'll have a lot of questions
today, but with that background, perhaps. . . Do you have a presentation. . . "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "Yeah. Don is going to go over it with you, and maybe we can
just get any questions in. "
Mr. Don York said, "I think that. . . Let me preface before I start, that we tried to
do a review of this Department with as much objectivity as possible, and the report
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was by no means meant to be a critism of the staff or this body or anybody else.
The only thing we are trying to do, is what you're trying to do, and that's help
the Citizens of Collier County. With that in mind, I will just kind of give you a
rough brush of what we looked at, and then if you have any specific. . . Brad, and I
will be pleased to address them. Brad, probably more so than myself. We looked at
a number of things, and after we did, there were a number conclusions that we drew
and be they good or bad, they were conclusions that we drew, and consequently
became part of this Report. It's our opinion that what's needed in Parks and
Recreation, not restricted to Parks and Recreation, but probably to all branches of
the County Government. In the bureaucratic function, the day to day activities of
any governmental body, there is never an attitude toward making. . . Or, and
entrepreneurial attitude. Making things pay for themselves, as we do in the
private sector. I shouldn' t say there is never, but that seems to be lacking in
every Department that we looked at. In many, many cases, there are ways that
things can pay for themselves, and we'll give you some specifics later on. The
problems that as we saw them, and believe me we've tried to be objective as
possible, is lack of consistency in fees. We have five boat. . . I'll give some
examples, five boat ramps in the County, we charge at one. Some beach access
points we charge, some we don' t. The Tennis facility down on Marco Island as we
view it, that we're underwriting User Fees with County money. In other words, if
people want to play tennis, they should be willing to pay for it. An illustration
that I gave to Murdo and his staff, was that I belong to a Country Club and I have
to pay for it. I play golf, I have to pay for it. People who want to play tennis
should have to pay for it, and not have it underwritten by the tax payers. In
essence, overall, that was kind of what we say. You saw specifics in the report,
and we'd be glad to address those on those particular items. But, overall, we feel
that the County has an obligation to provide the citizenry of Collier County with
the Capital Projects (i.e. , Parks, Beach Access) , but we don' t feel that, that
should be underwritten by the tax payers. We feel that the people that use those
facilities ought to pay for them. The Commissioners don' t agree on that in
totality, as we've heard lately. Another specific example would be the $96,000.00
a year we pay to the City of Naples for Collier residents to use their beaches. As
a County resident, if I want to go to the City beach, I ought to be willing to pay
for it and not have the County pay for it. That's kind of what we came up with,
and if you have specific questions, we'd be glad to address them"
Chairman Kobza said, "Mr. Mueller, would you like to start the discussion or the
questions?"
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "I agree. I have read your report. You and I have discussed
the report personally. I have read your report four times. I agree with 85
percent of it. I think you are right on. I am glad you did the report, and I am
hoping that something productive will come from that report. Rather than go into
the things that I personally agree with, I think there should be some blatant
inaccuracies corrected. The most. . . and I have 13 pages of notes that I have
written regarding your report. But, I think the most blatant inaccuracy , and I am
not criticising you, because I think perhaps. . . well, you can' t delve into
everything, it's impossible. You made a comment that the crime rate or words to
that effect, I can' t recall speciffically the verbage, was almost nill, or almost
inconsequential at the beaches, and so forth. I think that you'll find that you
would be amazed, for example, the number of cars that are broken into at our
beaches, particularly Tigertail beach. I mentioned that, because I want, perhaps,
to emphasize the importance of having an attendant there, regardless of whether the
place makes money, and I refer to Clam, or Vanderbilt, or Bonita, or whatever the
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case may be. Not only Tigertail, because Tigertail is making money. The fact that
we have to elaborate on the Ranger Program, I believe you were a little critical of
the Ranger Program, as I recall, that's a secondary factor. I disagree with you
there. I think the Ranger Program is extremely important. Vital! Other than
that, I think the report was right on, I personally am very glad that you did it.
I hope we can, as I said earlier, come up with something productive, as a result of
it. "
Mr. Don York said, "Let me just address the Ranger Program, if I may, just for a
moment. I don' t think that we feel that the Ranger Program is a waste of time.
Don' t get me wrong, but as it's currently structured it can' t be effective because
the Rangers have absolutely no power to do anything. They have no police powers
what so ever. We addressed that with Murdo, and he said that was being worked on.
But, as we saw it currently, there's not teeth in the Ranger Program. They have
not arrest powers, they can' t issue sitations, they can' t do anything. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Well, Mr. York, Murdo's more aboard on this than I am. Now,
didn' t something recently happen that gae them certain powers?"
Murdo Smith said, "Yes. I believe that within the last three weeks the Board of
County Commissioners approved Rangers to issue citations. The County Attorney is
in the process of. . . Gary you can help me out on this. I think they have to send
the name and so forth up to the State, and once that comes back, they will be able
to issue citations. I know Brad, and I, and Don talked at length about the
citation, and that was one of the main concerns that I think that the Productivity
Committee had. Getting those citations into effect. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "And now that they have that power. I think that it will
increase the potential effectiveness of the Ranger Program considerably. That
might help to aleviate one of your concerns, as far as that particular program is
concerned. Thirdly, and lastly, I'm particularly concerned about the Racquet Club.
I think your analysis of the Racquet Club, again, was right on. They've got some
big problems there, and hopefully they're going to be resolved very soon. But, I
appreciate the fact that you allaborate on that to the degree that you did in your
report. It's very important. "
Chairman Kobza said, "Mrs. Thomas do you have a specific question?"
Mr. Brad Estes said, "Let me add one thing about the Ranger Program, because I was
particularly concerned. I spent two (2) years looking at the Sheriff's Department
on another citizen's committee, and the cost of our Sheriff's Department is one of
the largest per capita in the State, and I really am concerned when we set up
duplicative services, and the Sheriff's still have to perform those services. If
you had a Ranger in the Park 24 hours a day, 7 day a week, the Sheriff is still
bound by law to go in there and Patrol it, and he does. You may not be satisfied
with the extent that it is patrolled, but I really have a big philosophical problem
with duplicative Police Department enforcement agency whatever, because somebody
doesn' t feel like the Sheriff is doing the job, because the Sheriff is empowered to
do everything you want him to do, and everything the Rangers are doing and more.
In fact the Rangers are in terms of burglaries. . . I don' t know what they do, if
they saw a burglary, because they're not really empowered to do anything except
call the Sheriff's Department. That's a major concern that I had, and it now, do
they. . . It's a 100,000 dollars a year and it's going to grow, because it's not
effective, because there's not enough. So that's going to turn out. . . " Brad also
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commented that the Sheriffs are empowered to do everything and the Rangers are not.
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "I don' t want to monopolize this, but, again I live a half a
block from Tigertail beach, and I've been fighting that battle for twelve years.
There have been any number of instances where we have called the Sheriff's
Department to come out, and I have to give you this off the top of my head, but
I'll bet that 30 to 40 percent of the time they don' t even respond, and when they
do respond, it's with a very unconcerned, lackadaisical attitude. So, I don' t
think we can depend too much on the Sheriff's Department to help us to any degree
at Tigertail or any of the beaches. That's why I think the Ranger Program has got
to supplement it, or do the things that we find the Sheriff's Department unwilling
to do. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "Well, in practice, I understand, but in theory I can never
agree with that, because this is. . . Constitutional responsibility. I talked to
the Captain of the Patrol Division, and he was very anxious to do whatever needs to
be done in Parks. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Well, they hadn' t been anxious at the substation on Marco
Island, I can gaurantee you that. "
Ms. Martha Skinner asked, "We're looking at possible parking meters. . . for the boat
ramps. . . to charge a fee, but as you know parking meters with no supervision there
or the electronic arm or whatever is going to be vandalized. You've got to have
somebody to collect money and somebody to site. . . .and I think that will require
Park Rangers, and even is we go into that aspect of charging fees, It'll be
recommended that we do. . . that we look at it. I think that we are going to
probably have to have one more Park Ranger to make this come off. Plus for the
fact that if you're going to have someone siting. . . If there's no one around,
they're not going to put the money in. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "I understand. If the Ranger Program could be offset by some
revenues, parking meters, or whatever, sitations, you know, those people should be
writing a certain number of sitations. "
Ms. Martha Skinner said, "I don' t think the Sheriff's Department wants to take on
that. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "No, and they won' t have to. "
Ms. Martha Skinner said, "Right. So that's why I would like to speak in behalf of
the Park Ranger Program. Not just doing what it is today, spending it. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "But you have to understand, that when I see one part of
Government not working, and another part of Government. As a citizen, I think Don
and I both agree on it. We've got to speak up and say, you know, we're paying
extra because you all can' t cooperate. "
Mr. Don York, "Or not doing you job. "
Mr. Gary Franco said, "May I say something? I think that as we develope, and if
you stick around for the Park Ranger Program, law enforcement is just a small part
4 of that program. As we tried to say before. So, there are the Sea Turtle
Monitoring Program, and a whole scoop of things. Maybe everybody will have a
6
little bit better handle on what the Ranger Program encompases after we have that
presentation today. "
Chairman Kobza said, "Mrs. Thomas, do you have a specific question?"
Ms. Cherryle Thomas asked, "Was a major concern of this committee, more staff or
this concern that we're spending money and not being able to justify the money
being spent?"
Mr. Don York answered, "The overall concern of the committee was to see how
effectively your spending tax dollars. In not only Parks and Recreation, but in
all Departments that come under the auspices of the County Manager. We are not
permitted to go into the Constitutional officers, such as, the Sheriff, or the
Clerk of the Courts, or any of those. These Departments are strictly those that
report or are under the jurisdiction of the County Manager, and our main concern
was 'How effectively are we spending tax dollars?' and. . . "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas asked, "From the survey, did you see a need for more
Recreational staff?"
Mr. Don York answered, "Oh Yeah!"
Mr. Brad Estes commented, "We didn' t understand why the Assistant Park Supervisors
had been cut. They were basically earning their keep, and now we're suffering, and
the Park Rangers are having to fill in. It didn' t make sense to me at all. "
Mr. Don York commented, "I think the biggest thing that we saw was, as such a Brad
just illustrated. They're people that are paying for themselves, and yet cut for
cutting sake, and that was not the place to cut. Where we saw the waste was. . .
Not waste, but where we saw there could be savings was in standardized user fees
throughout County Facilities. Now, we're not advocating that you should try to
collect a fee when it costs you money to collect it. Don' t get me wrong. But if
it can be collected, and it pays for itself, and ofsets the costs of other things,
then we should. And there should be ways to investigate it, not just say, 'Well it
costs more to collect it than it would be worth. ' It needs to be investigated.
How are there better ways to do it?"
Ms. Geneva Till said, "This Park Ranger Program, that's really wonderful what
you've come up with. I think it's great! Because it's going to make everybody
more concerned that they are able to perform a function, and they do, and we want
to improve on that. So that's good to have. I'm really glad to hear the reasons
why you are saying that, because now I think we have some direction of what needs
to be done, for. . . To make this efficient and cost efficient and workable in our
County. "
Chairman Kobza said, "I've got a few comments. From my vantage point I think the
report was very well done, and I thought the effort that you put into it was very
evident throughout the report. You examined all the issues that we've been dealing
with too in different ways. To a large degree, we try on a meeting to meeting
basis, we've always tried to implement some of the same philosophies to different
degrees. For instance, this year we had a very lengthy discussion, several
meetings where we increased User Fees, and I think we established User Fees for the
first time at our Community Centers, and tried to look at revenue generating types
of fees where they clearly made sense. You know where. . . I don' t know exactly how
7
you define that, but like in the adult softball programs for instance. I do see
part of the issue as being kind of philosophical, which is. . . . . .and I do disagree
a little bit with, you know the concept that all facilities have to pay for
themself for that facility as if it were in the private sector. I think the reason
to that, and it really is a philosophical difference is. . . you know, part of the
concept behind parks is that we're providing facilities for people that would not
be able to enjoy them in the private sector, for people that could not afford them
otherwise, and that's a function of Government. Especially I think where I am most
concerned about that is as it relates to kids, and underprivileged children, and I
am not. . . The adult programs, I don' t think we've ever instituted charges that have
been unaffordable. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "We don' t disagree on that. In the very beginning we state
that anybody under 18, there needs to be an exception made in terms of fees, and
you have to consider that. "
Chairman Kobza said, "Yeah. The beach parking issue of course is a very emotional
issue as well as a financial issue, if you will, and it's one that has been
addressed by not only us, and yourselves, but also. . . you know we went through a
very trying situation with Barefoot Beach, and that whole situation, and I think
what we did last year was try to stike kind of a compromise between the competing
philosophies. Basically what we did was, we said we should set the fees at the
beach at least equivalent to the point of the operating cost of those facilities.
So, I'm getting to a question here. One of the questions I had, in reading the
report was that your use of fees or your definition of what operating costs were is
definitely very different than the definition that we use for operating costs.
Last year, I think, we assumed that Tigertial was above the break even line, Clam
Pass and Vanderbilt were holding their own (for the first time, Clam Pass) , and
that Barefoot was . . .loser. Yet, in reading the report, it seems that probably, I
think you kind of laid it out. . . :
Mr. Brad Estes said, "We used a Business Management approach. In other words the
money has got to come from somewhere, and when Gary sends his people over to mow
the grass or to clean the parking lot, that's operating costs. If you send a Park
Ranger over to patrol, that somebody has got to pay that salary. That's an
operating cost. They were maybe indirect operating costs, but It's got to come
from somewhere. That's why we expanded, I think. . . "
Chairman Kobza said, "So, my question was, I need to understand those assumptions.
How did you get to those numbers?"
Mr. Brad Estes said, "They were produced by the staff, and anything that realted to
that park, not to that parking space, or to. . . I think it had some beach
maintenance in there. If you clean the beach, something other than, you know. . .
Passive beach activities should not cost anything. You ought to be able to walk on
the beach and not pay anything. It doesn' t cost us anything to put you there.
But, it's parking, if it's an improvement of bathroom, a beach cleaning fee,
patrol, whatever, then that's part of the costs. "
Chairman Kobza said, "So, how did you. . . Do you have a, like for instance a
schedule that you used to generate these numbers?"
Mr. Brad Estes said, "Yes. Murdo, I think you allocated crews and it was a
guess-timate in terms of what went where, between the parks. "
8
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "Kim, we supplied Brad and Don with the numbers and figures
that they had requested from. . . You know how much operations would cost, and so
forth. They asked for everything pertaining to that. Where as in the past we had
basically looked at the toll booths and their salaries, and so forth associated
with collecting a fee. That's where I think the difference is there, Kim. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "Actually, a true business approach is, you'd have to
advertise the cost of the improvements too. We didn' t even do that. So, really
that's the way its done. The capital costs in terms of an amoritazation of those
capital costs. "
Mr. Don York said, "But we discounted that. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "I don' t think that the people on the productivity Committee
necessarily meant to imply that all facilities should make money and/or pay for
themselves. That wasn' t your implication, was it?"
Mr. Don York said, "No. . . "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "I didn' t think so. "
Mr. Don York said, "The direction was that those facilities that can, should. OK?"
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "OK. Because there are facilities within the system that are
going to make money, there are facilities that aren' t, and there are also
facilities that are not making money. Let me be specific. A case in point. I
presume that Vanderbilt and Clam are not making money. I could be wrong about
that. But, the necessity to me, of spending the money, of having a gaurd or gaurds
at those places is vital. I think the natives would take the place apart if there
weren' t gaurds there. I know that's the case at Tigertail Beach. So, you're going
to have a deficit there, you're going to have. . . There going to go in the red,
just by virtue of that. So, those places are not making money. Hopefully one day
they will. There are also facilities within the system that should be making a
great deal more money. Perhaps that money can be used to sustain the facilities
that are not making money, or that have no feasible way of making money. I got the
idea that was your implication. Am I accurate?"
Mr. Brad Estes said, "I think we could look at the overall operation. For example,
beaches. Some are not going to make money, because you don' t have the activity
levels, but to begin with you are starting off with too low a fee. A dollar per
car is not enough. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "I agree a hundred percent. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "The impact of spreading that loss all over the entire County,
is not fair at all in terms of using County wide advelorum taxes. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Absolutely! I agree with you. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "It's not a County wide beach. . . and then we have regional
beaches. Those who use them should pay. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Absolutely!"
9
Mr. Don York said, "You know, I recognize that there are some statutorial
limitations as to what we can do with beach fees and fees for any of the facilities
that we have. But, personally, I have a really difficult time when we have a
citizen of Collier County that can go to Tigertail or whereever, and pay a buck to
park and yet somebody that comes here from New York or California or whereever and
drive a rental car, and they park for the same thing. I have a real difficult time
with that, for somebody that's out of the County. I see absolutely no problem with
somebody that drives up in a rental car, it's five dollars. I have no problem with
that at all. Statutorially I recognize there are problems with that, because we do
get some grant from the State. I think that when visitors come here, we owe
them. . . Yes they bring money into our County, but they need to pay for their
vacation. Part of that is that beach. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "A reasonable fee. I think what you said has been born out
to some degree by an increase in rates at the state beaches for example. They've
realized the necessity of having to do that. The division of the Marco Island
civic association, which is the residents beach association, the board of directors
had a meeting last week. They have decided, they must raise the rates. I think
it's three dollars, as I recall. So, I couldn' t agree with you more. The dollar
rate of charging to have people come in mass from other areas, a whole car load of
people that spend the entire day at the beach and pay a dollar is ludicrous. It's
ridiculous, I have to agree with you. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "One of the things that really is disturbing, is, you look at
Barefoot Beach, where at least a significant number of users are not County
residents. They're Lee County. They do it for free. Now Marco pays. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "That's right. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "I still don' t understand it. "
Ms. Martha Skinner said, "We're having our Attorney's group here look into that
question now, if we can charge out-of-staters more than local. So, they are
investigating that to see we can discriminate in that way or not. So, we are
trying to do something that way. "
Mr. Don York said, "All that we can say is that was the whole idea of the report.
Try to see ways of letting. . . making these things happen. "
Chairman Kobza said, "Let me ask a couple other questions that I. . . This relates to
a business perspective, I think, as well. Take for instance the case of Barefoot
Beach. We're talking about consistency in fees here, and this is something that we
grappled with last year when we made recommendations. . . At Barefoot Beach, we only
have currently 67 parking spots. That is currently in place, paved. . . "
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "Paved in place. Now there are some 40 unpaved areas on the
East side of the road. In next year's budget we anticipated in constructing the
additional 44 parking spaces associated with the third parking. . . "
Chairman Kobza said, "So that will put us at about 148 something?"
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "Yes. "
Chairman Kobza said, "OK. At Vanderbilt, how many do we have, 178?"
10
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "We have 125 in the parking lot, and 21 outside, and 6
handicapped, about 150. "
Chairman Kobza said, "So that would be comparable. "
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "At Clam Pass, you have 180, and at Tigertail it's about 180
cars also. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Yeah. They squeeze in 200 if they have to. "
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "All unpaved areas, we'll just say about 180. "
Chairman Kobza said, "So, to the extent that when we looked at it, the bottom line
at that time, when we reviewed it we only had 67 up there. And we said for 67 we
really can' t pay for the attendant. I think that was what it came down to. Now
we've got more spots, and so maybe if we hit 140, we're where we are at Vanderbilt.
My point is this, the few parks, like Clam Pass, for three years. The first three
years at Clam Pass using our old formula it didn' t break even. When all the
others did. It took a while for people to know where Clam Pass was, and that there
was a park there, and there was no signage really on the Highways leading to it.
Do you think that in the intial years of Barefoot you'll have the same kind of
issues? Should you differentiate kind of as a lost leader to get people familiar
that it's there, it's usable, try to get them in, and pump your demand up, and then
institute the fee?"
Mr. Brad Estes said, "Well, I think Bonita is a unique problem in itself because
you've got a hundred spaces sitting over there by the docks or whatever that area
for which we're getting no revenue at all. I'm an advocate of meters. Parking
meters. Then you don' t have. . . I mean your expense is a one time expense of 300
dollars, or whatever a meter is going to cost. and that's the enforcement of it.
Chairman Kobza said, "We looked at meters last year, and the expense, and I think
you had $40,000 and the number we were working with was $90,000. That was another
question. Where did you get your meter costs?"
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "We've considered the meters, but I think one of the
principal things that caused us, at that time, if my memory serves me correctly, to
advise the Commissioners not to consider meters. One of the factors was the
esthetics of the meters. I guess, if I remember, it was brought up in this
meeting, that a beautiful parking area, such as Clam Pass for example or the
Preserve, and there are others I'm sure would just be, to me at least, would be
devistated by parking meters every ten feet. That was one of the things, and I
think the cost factor was closer to the figure that Kim mentioned a moment ago,
than your guess-timate a few minutes ago. "
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "OK. I think that what may be the difference there was, I
don' t think that Brad was going to do the ones that we already, are gaurd was. I
think it was just the ones that were unmetered. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "Oh yeah. I think when you get into alot if you've got enough
money to support an attendant, that's highly favorable, because then you have some
degree of security, survelance, or whatever. But, you have like 25 spaces at
Seagate. Esthetically, I don' t know. "
11
Mr. Gil Mueller asked, "Are you talking in place of attendants at these beach
facilities for example?"
Mr. Brad Estes answered, "Not at Tigertail, because you can make money with an
attendant. The activity over there is adequate for. . . "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "I think the necessity of a body. . . (END OF TAPE 1, SIDE
A) . . .no question in my mind the importance of it at Tigertail, and I would guess
that that importance is just as significant in places like Clam, and Vanderbilt. I
can' t lay my finger on it exactly. Perhaps Kim can elaborate, but I've seen these
fellows be helpful in so many ways. Prevent, I'm sure, vandalism in many
instances. That's a guess-timate, but I can' t believe it hasn' t been effective. I
feel highly favorable about having attendants there. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "It's a bottom line descision. Can you afford it? Can you
make the money to cover it?"
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Well, as in some cases, these attendants, by virtue of the
fact that they are there, we're not going to make money at these facilities. Or,
not make as much money as we had in other facilities. But, I think it's a
necessary evil. I think it's absolutely important to be there. "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "Well, you take Bonita Beach, 100 spaces, that right there is
certainly a question mark as to why something doesn' t exist one way or another. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "As you pointed out, Mr. Estes, a moment ago, Bonita was a
very unusual situation. There were factors there. There were strong influences at
those meetings that influenced the powers that be to make descisions that they did.
I disagree totally with those influences. I think that we should elaborate on the
facility. We should have a gaurd there, we should charge for it. We paid 3.2
million dollars for it. It's ridiculous. Absolutely"
Chairman Kobza said, "One other thing. Gil and I both sat in the booths at
different times, and with all the parking gaurds. I took one of my Sundays, and I
went to Clam Pass, I took a couple hours with the gaurd there, and I went to
Vanderbilt and did the same thing. Went up to Barefoot and kind of got a feel for
how that operates. I think, one of my observations was kind of what Gil said. The
functions that they perform include heavy orientation towards not just the
security. . . Security was a big part of it. But, also the informational function
with the tourists. Where is such and such. Especially at Clam Pass, where the
Registry people were. . . Every other car in had a question. How do you get here?
how do you get there?"
Mr. Don York said, "Which is precisely why you need to charge for it. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Exactly"
Mr. Brad Estes said, "I don' t have a big problem with it one way or another as long
as we at least break even on it. "
Mr. Don York said, "I don' t want to over simplify things, but, the way I view it,
and probably. . . I've been in the private sector all my life so I look at things
from a profit orient standpoint. As I view it right now, yes the parking meters
are going to cost money. Forget whether they're going to look aesthetically good.
12
talking about money now. If we don' t pay the city the 96,000. We've got 96,000
dollars we can go buy parking meters for. You go on a marketing campaign to sell
parking stickers to the County residents. If you want to use the beach, pay $15.00
or whatever that number is, you get a sticker on your car, you can park anywhere in
any of the County parks for nothing. OK. You have Ranger Program, a Ranger goes
around, and if there's a car there, and the meter is expired, and it doesn' t have a
sticker on it, he gets a 25 dollar ticket or a 15 dollar ticket. It's dollars and
cents. I mean it just makes sense to me. "
Chairman Kobza said, "You know, I keep coming back to this. I think there's a way
to kill both birds with the same stone. I'm really going to try to explore this.
But, I bringing up the example of Vancouver, British Columbia, Stanley Park. They
have a central ticket/sticker dispencer. So you don' t get involved in the cost of
the meter. You put your quarter in, you get your sticker, you put on your car, and
you go and park. You don' t have the esthetic problem, you don' t have. . . "
Mr. Brad Estes commented that it's a good idea.
Chairman Kobza " . . .and you can accomplish the same thing. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Murdo's written a letter to them. Didn' t you? We haven' t
had an answer yet. "
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "No we have not received an answer yet. We have a report,
Kim, that we submitted to you also today, and it goes through some of those items.
We considered that as the Electronic Metering Devise for lack of a better word. "
Chairman Kobza said, "It's just a little box like this. That's all it is. "
Mr. Don York said, "That could be installed at the boat ramps. "
Mr. Gary Franco said, "Just for point of clarification. I don' t think the
Productivity Committee ever said to replace human beings with the meters. The
meters were to be used at selected facilities where no fee is being charged right
now (i.e. 951 boat ramp) .
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "That's probably where the difference was in the $45,000
versus the $90,000. I think we had estimated also the meters to be about $300 a
piece or something like that. "
Chairman Kobza said, "Are there any other questions or comments at all? Gil? Do
you have any questions of us at all?"
Mr. Brad Estes said, "We dislike your recommendation on these items to the County
Commission. We are going to meet with them again in October. But, two issues that
I think are very important, is in increasing the beach parking fees, and an
abolition of the City parking fee that we're paying. One other thing that I would
also like to suggest, and I think this could be implimented Administratively, is
that the Park Supervisors become more responsible for not only developing their
revenue budgets for in the parks, but also becoming accountable for them , and that
being a part of their evaluation. A part, not solely, but a part of their
evaluation in terms of what their merritt raise will be, based on what they do to
earn their revenues. "
13
Chairman Kobza said, "On the Park Ranger Program, I think I might agree with part
of your conclusion for different reason, and I would go in a different direction
probably. Would you. . . I think that you would agree that a public presence on the
beach is important or some enforcement responsibility on the beach is important.
Do you agree with that?"
Mr. Brad Estes said, "It really varies. It depends upon your problems. "
Chairman Kobza said, "Would you have like a three wheeled. . . Whoever it is, whether
it's the Sherriff, or us, or whatever. . . "
Mr. Brad Estes said, "Well, I'll give you and example. Clam Pass, no, I don' t
think you need a thing at Clam Pass because you've got a concession stand out
there. The type of clientele typically is Tourists or Park Shore. "
Chairman Kobza said, "What about Vanderbilt, for instance?"
Mr. Brad Estes said, "At Vanderbilt you've got a seperate problem. You've got a
very long isolated beach, but before we know it, it's going to be all Condo's. So
the problem will diminish, I think. Like Naples. They patrol the beach, but where
do they have the problems? It's where there's not a presence of Condominiums or a
lot of population, things like that. Oh. They have drinking on the pier, but. . .
Port Royal, where a lot of homes are vacant. . . "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "While you are on that subject Mr. Estes, I have had notes
here for three months to ask that question. As far as our donation to the Naples
Park system for use of their beach, and it never seems to surface to the point
where I bring it up. I'd like to clarify that, now that you've brought it up.
What exactly. . . Murdo, would you explain to me what the reason for that is. I'm
sorry, but I'm not clear on that. I'd like to be. "
Mr. Don York said, "That's what we're trying to figure out. "
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "OK. I don' t know if I can give you the correct answer, but
I'll try to give you the answer. From what I recolect of this. . . Several years ago
the BCC approved paying the City of Naples a certain amount of money for letting
County residents use their beaches free. The City of Naples at that time was going
to start charging a parking fee at all beaches for the parking, and that was
associated with the cost for the beach maintenance that would be associated by
having the extra coming to the City beaches from the County, and that was a dollar
amount that was figured in. " We have budgeted $96,000.00 currently. In the past
they have billed us for more, but we haven' t paid more than that.
Mr. Gil Mueller, "So, in other words we are paying them $96,000.00 a year so people
from Collier County can park at the Naples beaches. " Many County people, about
40,000 do take advantage of it. That why are we donating 96,000 dollars of a
budget that we could use elsewhere.
Ms. Geneva Till said, "I'm one of those people that use that on a weekly basis, and
it is hard to find a place to park that is open for County Residents. "
Non-stickered cars can not park un-metered spots. You can park with your sticker
in the metered spots and not get a citation, but if you park without a sticker in
the stickered spots only you'll get a ticket.
14
Mr. Gil Mueller commented that it doesn' t make sense that if a person goes to the
Tigertail beach they have to pay $1 .00, but if they go to the city they don' t pay
anything.
Mr. Murdo Smith commented, but that's only if they have a city sticker. Otherwise
they are required to put money in the meter. Also that the impact of the County
residents using the city beaches was causing a concern with the city that it was
costing too much tax dollars to maintain the beaches, and that they would like to
have some type of renumeration from the County for the citizens using it.
Ms. Martha Skinner said, "The City of Naples wanted to go into this business of
charging so forth, and went to the County and proposed the County give them so much
money because the County residents use the beach. We didn' t have that many County
beaches, designated as such at that time. So, the BCC bought into that and agrees
to help with the maintenance and putting the meters in. All that The City had to
do was make this happen, and it's continued on without really anybody's OK. Those
meters are paid for, we have our own beaches now, and if County people want to go
to the beach, maybe they can go to the County beach free or pay a small fee rather
than us paying this for them. I think it has just been something that has gone on
from the past, that really never has gone down. And now you have a group of
Citizens that are really supportive of the County paying this for County residents
to go to City beaches, and they are involved in protecting that interest also. "
It was symbolic of City/County cooperation too.
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "The impact of the County residents using the City beaches
was causing a concern with the City that it was costing too much tax dollars to
maintain the beaches and that they would like to have some type of renumeration
from the County for the citizens using it to help with the expense of the
maintenance of the beaches and so forth. "
Mr. Don York said, "I would say to you at this time of the year, that anytime a
County resident can go to the beach and find any place that he wants to park. The
only time that you have problems, is during the Winter Season. I really don' t see
what the County residents benefit from this payment. If you go to the beach
there's either a parking meter, or you've got to have a ticket. It's about a
dollar and hour. "
Chairman Kobza said, "Maybe our approach can be this. We recommended that we be
the core committee of the Beach Access and Beach Issues Committee and we were going
to hold public meetings in the Fall , is what we anticipated. I think this issue
certainly Falls into that set of issues that we would examine, and invite public
comment on. Perhaps we could collectively address it at that point in time. So,
basically what we're going to do is put all of the beach issues on our Agenda for a
series of public meetings through the Fall (September, October, November) and see
if we can' t come up with a collective policy or set of recommendations to the BCC
for beach policy, and it probably will incorporate many of the recommendations that
you've had as the Productivity Committee. But, I think that we owe it to the
public, because it's such an emotional issue, to hold some more public hearings
where they are well advertised and they attend them because we're going to hear a
lot of people on this issue. I think it would be a mistake to start making
recommendations without doing that. I think that's probably the approach we should
take, and we will go down to the County building, and get the meeting room.
r Ms. Geneva Till commented that the earlier we get to this issue, the better.
15
Mr. Gill Mueller, commented, that he agrees. It was agreed that Chairman Kobza
would take the responsibility for meeting with Commissioner Volpe on that issue,
and telling him what we want to do, and then maybe we can coordinate, and he can
report back to the board at our August meeting. Mr. Gill Mueller asked about the
memorandum from Commissioner Volpe on the subject of the Beach Task Force.
Mr. Murdo Smith explained that Martha Skinner had a meeting with the County
Manager, and expressed PARAB's request to be the core of any committee set up on
the beach issues. The recommendation was that PARAB will be the committee, and if
they want to invite additional members as was outlined is up to PARAB.
Chairman Kobza suggested that he will meet with the Commissioner, meet with the
Manager's Office, and iron out that type of issue. He will also establish a
meeting schedule, and report back to the parab board at the August meeting. He is
also assuming that everyone on the PARAB board will take the time to be at say,
three evening meetings.
Mr. Gil Mueller and Ms. Geneva Till agreed that this is a big issue,' and would like
to get started on it as soon as possible.
Martha Skinner said, "That was two things, the city beach parking issue, and also
charging the beach fees. . . " .
Mr. Brad Estes said, "In our last Productivity Committee meeting too, we decided
that we would be a committee that will exist for follow through as well. "
Mr. Gil Mueller asked Mr. Don York and Mr. Brad Estes to come back at future
meetings when there are issues that would be interesting to them and could
contribute to.
Mr. Brad Estes, and Mr. Don York left the meeting at this time.
16
B. BLUEBILL PROPERTY UPDATE:
Mr. Art Jacob, president of the Vanderbilt Beach Property Owners Association was
present for this discussion. An Executive Summary regarding "presentation to the
Board of County Commissioner of those bids received on that property know as the
Bluebill site pursuant to Florida Statue 125.35" was passed out to each PARAB
Member. They are updating it and will make a change. They have re-examined, and
now in their recommendation, they are going put option number five as their
recommendation from staff from the Real Property Department. This is on page 3 at
the top. This recommendation states: "That the Board of County Commissioners
review the bids received on the Bluebill site and direct staff to proceed with
Option Number Five as outlined within this Executive Summary. I certain bids
submitted for the purchase of the Bluebill site are accepted, staff requests that
the Board of County Commissioners authorize its Chairman to execute Real Estates
Agreements with that or those parties selected and any other documents required to
proceed with closing the transaction with the approved purchaser. (revised
recommendation)
Martha Skinner commented, that she understood from Tom Oliff, and it's not as much
a Real Property issue, now it's turning into more of a Parks issue.
Also, Martha Skinner commented, they met as staff, and they decided that the Parks
Program (extended and present) needs money. We have depended upon the sale of
Bluebill property to finance, as you all know, some of these programs that we are
undertaking.
Martha Skinner also presented a Petition. They are: (1) to retain ownership of
that property located on Bluebill Avenue, previously intended for the construction
of a boat ramp, for possible future development as a beach parking facility; and
(2) Take action to obtain a beach access point at the extreme western end of the
Bluebill Avenue right-of-way. this means that beach go-ers will have to walk
across a bridge to get to the beach, which is quite a distance, and also the road
they would be walking along is a dangerously busy roadway.
Mr. Murdo Smith pointed out the property under discussion on the aerial map. This
property runs from Vanderbilt Beach Road, to the bridge. It is approximately five
acres of land, and the County purchased Conklin Point, and they removed some of the
reserve money in the 306 Fund, which is Parks Capital Improvement to purchase the
Conklin Point site, as a boat ramp. That was approximately 2.1 million dollars.
What the County had planned to do was sell the Bluebill property and recoup the
money into the 306 Fund. If we don' t do that, if we retain the property they we
will be "cash poor" in Fund 306. So, we would have to find some way of refunding
or replenishing the money in order to the the Capital Projects, which is also
listed on the Fiscal Impact portion of the Executive Summary. Or, we would have to
basically defer some capital projects (those that are planned this year and the
next two years) basically. The bids have come in a little lower than what was
anticipated. They are going to look at the highest and the best offers, but right
now it looks like the sale of individual lots (24 in all) would bring in more. The
petitioners access point, if successful, would be about a 20 foot easement. The
petitioners proposed parking site for beach access is a little over a half of a
mile to the beach, which include walking over a bridge. The roadway is extremely
hazardous, and a pedestrian bridge would have to be built.
Mr. Art Jacob, "One: We have plenty of density at Vanderbilt Beach with all the
r`✓ condos and homes on both sides. Particularly on the west side. Then we've got six
17
condo buildings north of Bluebill, and that creates traffic. Then we've got
Delnor-Wiggins State Park and that creates traffic which sometimes backs up all the
way to U.S. 41 . that half mile is a hazardous half mile. Of course the question
though, is the State owns that. It is a part of Delnor-Wiggins State park. . . .we
talked today about our own parking lot near the Ritz Carlton hotel. It is
under-utilized. Partly our fault. I don' t think it is well marked. However,
Murdo and I have been promised better signage for that parking lot. The County
also owns a 60 foot right of way north of Bluebill, and that would provide just as
many parking places, if parking places were the question. In land it's worth a
whole lot less money. The Bluebill site is the land that was going to be used as a
boat ramp. We hope that we convinced everybody that putting a boat ramp here is
unsafe, and a little bit stupid, because we're in a 'no wake' area, far from the
pass, every reason in the world. This isn' t the best water to boat in. The land
is valuable. It could be a park, and I'm sure my members wouldn' t have any
objections to a well maintained park. I think we've have objection to 22 building
lots, and 22 driveways going out onto an already overcrowded street. Particularly
when we have a nice right-of-way on the north side of the roadway where diagonal
parking could be provided and metered. The parking issue has been mentioned a
great many times. . . " Mr. Art Jacob then went on to suggest that staff sell this
property as a single unit to a developer, who then could develop it. Mr. Art Jacob
suggested to buy the empty lot agacent to the Vanderbilt Beach parking lot.
Martha Skinner commented that the Real Property Department is checking on that
right now, to see if they can get the owner to sell.
Mr. Art Jacob suggested that it makes more sense to put a parking lot there at
Vanderbilt Beach Road. The reasons being: (1) It is a commercial area, where as
the Bluebill property is mostly residential, (2) It is closer to the beach in
distance compared to the Bluebill property, (3) The same person who maintains that,
could maintain this somehow, and (4) It is a place where we would not object to
parking meters where as we would object to meters at the Bluebill site. We
objected strenuously to parking meters on the Bluebill property because it is
non-visible from the street, it is well hidden, and have a feeling that meters
would need replacing on a regular basis. The one thing that we're concerned about,
it that we don' t want the spectacle of another boat ramp coming into Vanderbilt
Beach. We think that we could get our members to say that we will lessen the deed
restriction, because only seventeen lots of these are good lots to build on. These
last six lots are next to the bridge. They are shallower, and noisier, will have
less access. It is also a concern that we've heard, that the utilities have a lift
stations on the northwest corner of the intersection, and had reserved lot one of
the Vanderbilt beach side of that intersection to move this lift station.
Ms. Martha Skinner said, "Well that is in question right now. They are checking
with the Eco. Department now to see if that is actually necessary or not, and I
asked the same question. So, I really don' t think a firm decision has been made. "
Mr. Art Jacob said, "We are concerned! (1) This lift station is an abomination at
the moment, it has a design flaw. On certain days of the week or evenings, the
odor is unbelievably bad. (2) If they move it, they will probably correct that
design flaw, but they're not particularly pretty buildings, if they're buildings at
all. I would guess that seriously reduced the value of the property to Developers
a bit, and set the tone, for the entire corner. "
Mr. Art Jacob said, "I came to you to tell you how the neighbors feel about it, and
18
to give you some background. It could make a nice little County park. Can the
County afford another pocket park? The main thing is landscaping and all that"
Ms. Cherryle Thomas said, "But are the citizens that live out there in agreement
that it's too valuable for a parking lot? This piece of property. "
Mr. Art Jacob said, "I think it is, I haven' t seen the petition, but I personally
think it is, and as a county tax payer, I think I'd rather see my money. . . this
can be developed as a very nice community of homes, and it will be taxable.
consider, this whole area is water front. It's a fairly modest waterfront
community, but today our taxes are about six million dollars a year on Vanderbilt
beach. This is an area less than half a mile square, so add 20 more homes to about
3-4 thousand dollars a home in taxes, and I think you're improving the tax base.
That's a consideration that I hope every department is taking. To get as much out
of this land as we can, particularly when we have alternatives. " Another
alternative is, if we need a parking lot, we have to buy land, the land across the
street is worth close to $40,000 per acre where the Bluebill property is worth
approximately $210,000 an acre. If we buy that, we'd get as much parking as we
want, for less.
Chairman Kobza said, "For purposes of the record, I need to state my conflict, and
I filed a memorandum of conflict when the Bluebill property came before the board
1-1/2 to 2 years ago, and I won' t vote on any issues that relate to Bluebill
property under the conflict statute. However, the statute does provide that I can
engage in discussion regarding the issue. This is something I happen to know quite
a bit about. I've been very involved in, and I just want to share a perspective
with the board, having to do with many of the things that art mentioned by also
condensing it down a bit. When Bluebill was proposed for the boat ramp site, they
went out and got appraisals. The appraisal numbers at that time, for the Bluebill
property were about 1 .3 million dollars. There were a variety of appraisals done
as to what that property is worth. What drives the value of that property, is the
fact that it's waterfront type property. OK. So, when we held on to it, we held
on presuming that the values were still there. Because the market has decreased,
that has impacted the value of it. But, there are others factors that are
impacting the value of it as well, from a developers standpoint on the property in
whole. This is where I deviate from Real Property 180 degrees. I don' t think that
they have any real ability to go out and sell these one lot at a time, and that's
not even viable in my mind at least as an option, and I will kind of lead you
through that a little bit. One thing, this has got an environmental problem,
because this is all mangroves here, and when this canal was recently dredged, about
three years ago, and it was done after the developer on the south side of the canal
went out and got permits. It took him two years to get permits. There is a
seawall on the southern side and not on the north side. So, it's not the same type
of water-front you would have to do is try to get the permits with the sate and
potentially remove those mangroves, which is just impossible for the developer to
do, or you'd have to riffraff in some fashion, and bring your docks out more
perpendicular, and that conceivably can be done at least in some places along here.
OK. That one problem you'd have in utilizing it as waterfront property. But it
could be done, it it were done in a planned development. So that's one issue. The
other issue is, this Bluebill avenue here is the sole access to the north end of
Vanderbilt beach. It is your emergency access as well as the day to day access.
So, when ambulances, fire trucks, etc. have to go over this bridge, this is the
only way they can come in. The proximity of Bluebill to this property makes it
fir► more difficult to develop, because you have these lots right on the sole access. I
19
don' t know what the average daily traffic is, but I can tell you, it's really
noisy. I live on the other side of this canal, and there are actually seven or
eight homes on the south side of the canal right now. We are impacted by the
traffic. I can hear what goes on out there all the time. So, if you're right next
to it, you have that problem. But that's a problem that a developer would have to
deal with. The way that a developer would do that, would require installing a
landscape wall, or some type of buffering to Bluebill Avenue. This location of the
sewer re-pump station as was originally bid, at least in my mind the bids that came
back the value went down, because it made it very difficult for a developer to go
in there and build right next to a sewer re-pump station, and that station. . . I'm
very familiar with that issue, lectured about it, and found out about that location
very accidentally. What it does is create hydraulic pressure to make sure the
sewage which comes from the north goes out to the sewage treatment plant, which is
located farther east on immokalee road. That station can be located anywhere,
going up the line or down the line east or up almost half a mile or a mile, and
achieve that. So, you're taking a 100-150 thousand dollar lot out of the revenues
that we're getting, to put in land cost as a sewer re-pump station. So, that was
one of those things that took the bid down. OK. So that's a third issue. All
this relates to the values and that's what you've got to get to in the options"
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "I was looking at the memo to Ron Mc Lemore from Mr. Murdo
Smith dated June 27, 1991 . Does this tie in with what you're talking about as far
as landscaping, and the purchase of the 1 .25 acres of property, etc. ?"
Chairman Kobza said, "No. That is the turnaround at the end of Vanderbilt Beach
Drive. So, then the questions, there are a couple of issues. Do we take any of
the existing bids, as one option? Do we go and look for new bids, repackage it,
because we need the money, and look for new bids? That's the second option. Do we
let real property sell these one lot at a time, and put 22 driveways out here on
the street? Which is very realistic and is going to happen! But, that's the third
option. OK. A fourth option would be, do we keep the property, and don' t do
anything at the current point in time? The fifth option would be, do we keep the
property, and utilize it for beach parking? We can create some options.
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "I have some reservation about utilizing that as a pocket
park. " Chairman Kobza agreed.
Chairman Kobza said, "Let's discuss some of that a bit. The land cost, even if you
look at it on the low end, for the beach parking, would be whatever the value of
that waterfront property woulad be. So, the land cost for that would be as high
as, let's say it's 2.25 million, which was on of the bids. . . "
Ms. Martha Skinner said, "Besides improvements" .
Chairman Kobza said, "Besides improvements, just the land portion of it. what land
costs. . . "
Chairman Kobza said, "To compare apples and apples, you need to look at how much
parking we create with the land that's available, and what it costs. So that's a
key number. Whatever the value of that is, that's the cost of creating that
parking. The County has 100 total feet of right-of-way here, and this roadway
(Bluebill Avenue) is located on the south 50 feet of that. So, we have another 50,
and I think it's 60 feet up to the north of Bluebill that is currently completely
un-utilized. The County owns that. Zero land cost!"
20
The County does not pay taxes to themselves. Chairman Kobza said, "The
right-of-way could be used for parking. So that's one option we could
use, at zero land cost. We can sell Bluebill, and have those revenues
back in the 306 fund, and the other funds we took money form to buy
Conklin Point, or we have to go borrow those moneys someplace basically
to replenish those funds, or we won' t be building the boat ramp, or some
combination of those things, because we don' t have cash to do it. If we
don' t sell Bluebill. OK?
Chairman Kobza said, "OK. When we bought that site, we bought it for 2 million and
75 thousand dollars. OK. When we bought that, we took the money to buy that, from
the 306 fund which was money previously designated for capital projects within the
next couple of years (i.e. olympic swimming pool, boat ramps, the multipurpose
building, community center, etc.) .
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "All the reserves, were combined to purchase the Conklin
Point property. "
Chairman Kobza said, "So all of our cash went out that fund. "
Mr. Murdo Smith said, "We had to borrow money, in order to build those
two community centers this year, because we were cash poor. We had to
borrow approximately 1.3 million dollars. Now, we're still paying the
bank that money back until we sell, or do something with the Bluebill
property. Until we replenish those funds and pay that note back, we have
to pay interest on it. "
Chairman Kobza said, "To be able to go forward with the swimming pool,
and with the boat ramp, and the other community parks, we've got to have
the cash to do that. The cash will either come out of this property, or
we go borrow it, or we won' t do the projects. Those are the options.
or, we defer it from other budget items, but I don' t think we have
anywhere to pull form now. "
Ms. Martha Skinner said, "Our deficit is going to be greater. "
Mr. Murdo Smith commented that we have the impact fees.
Chairman Kobza said, "That's true, the impact fees are still there. They
could fund one or more of those projects. But not. . . I don' t think they could do
everything. "
In the Executive Summary they could pick up that shortfall under Impact
Fees over a period of time. If you use the money that's in the north
naples impact fee district, you may be able to do these projects this
year. The boat ramp could perhaps be done, and the pool too. What would be done,
is the shortfall we'd have, we would take the impact fee funds that are the 1.6
million, and we would put that into the Bluebill property.
Chairman Kobza explained that parab need to make recommendation to the bcc on what
to do with this property. Do we want to keep it for beach parking, or should we
sell it and use the other properties for alternative parking, or acquire another
site, or whatever the other options might be. Mr. Gil Mueller commented that he
personally would not be in favor of utilizing it as a pocket park, so to speak. He
21
used plummer park, out on Marco Island as and example. Unless this park could be
utilized, there'd be facilities there and people could utilize it for some
practical purpose, I would be very much against turning it into a park. For
example he feels that plumber park on marco island hardly ever has anybody in the
park. It's a county responsibility, and I can' t see where very many people are
getting any benefit from it. But, I would be against turning this into what I
would term an extremely passive park. "
Mr. Art Jacobs interjected that it doesn' t make sense to take what is a potential
tax benefit, because that property is very valuable, and you could turn it into tax
dollars. We all live on waterfront, on beautiful pieces of property. Those of us
who live on the beach itself have the beach. We don' t need a park there, to be
honest. Ms. Cherryle Thomas agreed. Mr. Art Jacob said, "The big hangup on
putting parking there all depends whether you're going to get the right-of-way from
the state at Delnor-Wiggnins park. We have found that the people who run it are
not the most cooperative with us over a period of time. So, if you make parking up
there, you're going to make people walk across that unsafe bridge, they're not
going to have a place to go, unless they go into the state park and pay $1 .00 by
walking, or if they want a free beach access the first one is all but 10 feet wide
and is a good long walk.
Ms. Martha Skinner commented that she does think it would create problems too, for
a while, for the Vanderbilt Inn On The Gulf.
Mr. Art Jacob said, "A lot of people would be using that facility. . . the deputy
sheriffs will park there all the time, for a while, because people were using his
property as an access, and he had no control over them. So he put the fence up,
which angered some of the neighbors. It's unfortunate, but it did. So now, we've
got three beach accesses there. They are 10 feet wide, and there is a legal cloud
over them. We've got a great beach access to the south, we would love to have
restroom facilities there. It's not over-utilized. People can get to it easily.
they can walk a little bit south, and be in front of the Ritz Carlton, and it's
county property. They can walk north and be in front of some hospitable people.
That makes sense. North at this point, without that access, doesn' t make sense.
It also doesn' t make sense to take that beautiful piece of property and turn it
into a park that's going to cost the county a lot of money.
Chairman Kobza commented that he want to see this be a good economic decision. It
was suggested to wait as long as we can before we sell, in hopes that the market
will get better, or at least until we reach a critical point. A critical point
will however be reached by October, unless the bcc decides to put some other funds
into the 306 account.
Mr. Gil Mueller suggested that if the BCC knew we had this in our pocket, perhaps
they would be inclined to advance money on the basis of the fact that when this
materializes, why it'll improve the financial picture.
Mr. Murdo Smith commented they've done that with the community centers already.
Ms. Cherryle Thomas asked if the money we spent to buy conklin point was worth it.
Staff said yes.
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Assuming we're recommending the property be sold, then at
what point should we recommend that? Should we get it off the ground right away,
22
or should we hold it until the Real Estate and the Economy Picture looks a bit
brighter?"
Mr. Art Jacob said, "One of the bids was for 2.1, but it was to be paid over a 2
year period, which doesn' t help you a whole lot. The next lowest bid was closer to
what the original appraisal on that property was, 1 .3 million, and your shortfall
is so great on the Conklin Point property, i don' t think you can afford to take it.
i think it's worth closer to two million. "
Ms. Martha Skinner said, "If they were to take the 2.1, maybe the recommendation
could be to take the 2.1 for 24 months, and the BCC could advance, transfer, money
from somewhere to go ahead with these projects to be paid back in 24 months. i
don' t know if that's feasible. "
Chairman Kobza said, "Normally how a property owner would sell this property, they
would have a feasibility expert help you package the property to maximize it's
value and sell it like that, and they would have somebody advise them as to what's
the best thing time, maximize value, etc. "
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Well do we have that capability within the County?"
Chairman Kobza said, "I think that's something the County Manager should address.
Real Property's way just doesn' t make a lot of sense. We need to have somebody
that knows marketing, and does that for a living"
Mr. Gil Mueller said, "Well then maybe our recommendation to the BCC should be to
have a study made either by an in-house person or an independent to determine
I Cr wither or not it should be sold individually, whether it should be sold as a whole,
at what point in time it should be sold, but the basic recommendation being that it
should be sold and let them decide the method that they're going to use. "
Mr. Murdo Smith asked if PARAB could add, "The refunding of the 306 FUND" to that.
To reimburse those funds that have been borrowed for Conklin Point. Mr. Gil
Mueller agreed.
Mr. Gil Mueller commented, "That is a motion"
Chairman Kobza restated the motion to read, "A recommendation to the Board of
County Commissioner to, (A) Sell the property, (B) Replenish the 306 FUND, and (C)
to obtain. . . " Mr. Gil Mueller finished restating the motion to finish reading,
. . .in-house expertise or outside expertise to determine when the property should
be sold, how it should be sold, merchandised, etc. But, the basic recommendation
being that the property should be sold. Ms. Geneva Till seconded, no further
discussion, and the motion passed 3-0 with one abstention.
NOTE: VANDERBILT BEACH TURN-A-ROUND:
Mr. Art Jacob commented, "It is a little bit frustrating. Murdo remembers the day
we had the General Manager of the Ritz and a whole bunch of people from our
Association, and a wholde bunch of people from. . . Other people from the Ritz, and
4 or 5 people from Parks & Recreation. Coming down Vanderbilt Beach Road, when
you get to the stop sign, if you continue, you come to a paved turn-a-round. There
are six handicapped parking spots there, many park illegally at the handicapped
spots. It's gated with an old rusted chain link fence gate, it's falling over, and
it looks like the devil. It certainly doesn' t reflect the neighborhood that it's
23
in. We've got a five star property down here, and they use that gate, so I said to
the General Manager at one point, that he ought to replace the gate because you use
it. When they have beach parties, they ask Parks and Rec. to come out and open it,
so they can run. . . It's sort of an exchange. I think you'll find that the
Sherriff keeps some vehicles in that parking garage for emergency use, just to the
east. So, they always used it. It's just off to the side.
Mr. Gil Mueller asked Mr. Jacob how they have used that beach facility.
Mr. Jacob answered, "If he has a beach party, a convention group or something like
that, he gets access to the beach, they take a four-wheel drive vehicle and
deliver the good to the party site. And then come back and have them lock the
gate, and I don' t know why there'd be any objection to that, and they've done it
since they've opened the hotel. But, it is County property. This is a hammock
that is very desirable beach property. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "There's a ramp across there as I recall. A boardwalk. "
Mr. Art Jacobs and Mr. Murdo Smith said, not yet.
Mr. Art Jacobs, "We're saposed to have one. The guy at the Ritz said, I will do
more than put up a gate, I'll assign my people to come and maintain your parking
area. We were happy. We had volunteers out there on Earth Day, and cleaned the
whole place up. Then, I don' t know where the ball went, but the ball certainly
went somewhere, and we're still waiting for the other shoe to drop, because the
Ritz is angry with me, because nothing has happened. I'm a little angry because
nothing has happened. It's not the way it's saposed to have been. You came out
and put curbing in, and I watched them do it. The plans are beautiful, and we
would like to see the County get started on that. I read in the paper that you're
asking for some public grant money to help fund that. That would be great! This
is one of the few areas like this in all of North Naples. In fact, it's probably
the only one where you can drive right to the beach, turn-a-round, drop your stuff
off, and move away to park. A restroom area is needed up there also. "
Chairman Kobza, "We did make a request to the Tourist Development Council for
$70,000 to complete that. "
The County Manager's office is still reviewing all the applications to see which
ones they will consider.
Mr. Murdo Smith, "We also have the moneys for a dune cross over that we are in the
process of working out. It's there. We've just got to get our permits together,
and our construction plans. It the state approves them, we'll get that there. "
Mr. Art Jacobs, "The important thing, is that you've got some volunteers. We can
provide you with volunteers to help clean. "
C. PARK RANGER:
3:45 p.m.
Mr. Murdo Smith, "We have a short presentation, and then we'll go through some of
the aspects of the Park Ranger Program, and then we'd like to take you outside to
introduce you to April the horse and show what April can do. "
24
Ms. Nan Klein, "Hello everybody. My name is Nan Klein, and I'm Park Ranger
Supervisor with Collier County Parks and Recreation Department. I want to thank
all of you for inviting me here today. A short slide program will give a brief
overview of the Park Ranger Service, and then we'll have a few questions, and I
have our horse outside, so we can give you a little demonstration too. In 1988,
Collier County Government realized the need for additional compliance of Park
Ordinances and interpretive programs to promote awareness of resources within the
Collier County Parks system. The Park Ranger Program was implemented at this time.
The circumstances that prompted the need were the rapid population growth, and the
increased recreational needs of the community and visitors. The entire park system
encompases the maintenance of 54 recreational sites including: Community Parks,
Neighborhood Parks, Athletic Sites, and Beach & Water Parks. The goal of the Park
Ranger service is to provide protection and build respect for all the resources.
There are two objectives being met to reach the goal. One is fair enforcement of
ordinances. In our section, we prefer to use education. We feel that education,
not punishment, is the goal while encouraging compliance of ordinances. A positive
approach to park visitors so far has always created positive returns. The second
objective of the program is public relations and interpretation of the resources
and all of our facilities. Park Rangers are sometimes the only Department Employee
that the visitor comes in contact with. The impression the Ranger leaves with the
visitor has a lasing effect. If the Ranger explains the relationship between the
visitor and his environment, and the visitor understands, we become closer to the
goal of park protection. Last year alone, Collier County Parks were visited nearly
a million times by residents and the tourists. This year, since the beginning of
October, Park Rangers have patrolled park sites, as of the end of June 4,506 times
and we've had personal contact with visitors 46,964 times, and we have presented 40
interpretive programs. Rangers provide a uniformed presence throughout the system
to encourage compliance and provide information. We all work in staggered work
shifts and we're in the field seven days a week. Each one of us has completed a 40
hour Park Ranger Academy, 20 hours of Compliance Service training, we're all
certified in First Aide and CPR, and additionally as most of you probably know
we've recently been certified to issue citations for misdemeanor violations within
Park boundaries. Are regular duties include patrol, observation, and securing our
facilities, making visitor contacts, providing assistance to visitors and
co-workers, patrolling special events, developing and presenting formal
interprative programs. We've also developed and implimented interpretive signage
at Clam Pass, Tigertail, and Barefoot Beach Preserve Parks. The brochures that
you've received today were published with our Macintosh computer, in the front
office, camera ready for the printer. Park Rangers involve the Community in a
number of special projects, including tree plantings and beach clean-ups.
Currently this year, from May 1, to October 31, we're responsible for the
monitoring of Sea Turtles at Barefoot Beach Preserve. Incidentally, we have 59
nests. Along with Volunteers, we patrol the beaches for nesting turtles, we screen
and protect all the nests from predators (mostly racoons in that area) , and finally
we ensure the safety of the hatchlings on their way to the gulf. Park Rangers also
do some exotic erradicaiton. We've removed several hundred Austrailian Pines from
our beaches. We work also in designing and maintaining display cases we've had
installed at Bayview Park, Tigertail, and Barefoot Beach Preserve. We have also
developed and implimented a beach vendor permitting process for the entire County.
The Beach Vendor Permitting process is to provide safety and reasonable regulation
for water vessel rentals. We travel from site to site, in four wheel drive economy
pick up trucks. The trucks are equipped completely with first aid kits, light, two
way radios, jumper cables, flairs, blankets, mini compressors, hydraulic jacks,
binoculars, cameras, and tool boxes. While on site, we travel by walking, we have
25
one all terrain vehicle that we use, or we go by horseback. The mounted patrol has
been in service since May of 1990. It is a highly visible type of patrol.
Visitors requiring assistance have an easy time finding a mounted Ranger, and our
field of view is greatly increased. On this particular horse, April, I'm about 8
feet tall. During Special events when there is thousands of Visitors this is
especially important. Park patrol horses are trained by Park Rangers to control
crowds, maintain order, extracate vehicles, stop altercations, and patrol all while
remaining calm. Currently one horse is in service. Two others are in training.
Jazn, is a 10 year old Arabian Gelding that has recently been assigned to our
section. He's actually been in the park a couple of times, and is almost ready to
go, so you should be seeing him soon. This type of patrol has very positive impact
with the public. The horses are very gentle and they're friendly. I've never once
had a negative comment. We're able to cover more area in less time than walking,
and we can access remote areas with ease. Places where vehicles, and all terrain
vehicles can' t get in. That's it, I hope that I've been able to help you
understand a little about what we do. We have a program similar to this for
children that we use a lot. Each Ranger is required to do one interpretive
project a month. They could be a slide program, posters in our display cases, or
children's nature games, nature walks on the beach. Park Ranger's have to be at
all Special Events. We have one Ranger that is assigned full time for turtles.
Interpretive programs are mostly put together on our own time. At this time of
year we are wrapped up a lot with the turtles in Barefoot on the north end. We
have one Ranger that is assigned full-time with the turtles. That's a middle of
the night shift. They work from 9:30 at night to 6:00 in the morning. He goes
out, closes Community Parks, get his ATV and works the third shift with the
Turtles. Other than that we're in the Community Parks. We stop by the
neighborhood Parks. During the Winter, we go with priorities. If things are
hopping in Community Parks, we're full time in Community Parks, or if things are
hoppinng at the beach we're there. Right now unfortunately, we have a very tiny
percentage of time on interpretive programs. It's just a little bit more than just
law enforcement, or ordinance enforcement, so breaking time down at the beaches and
everything. Strictly law enforcement the Ranger will do that at every site he/she
pulls into, but it may only be like 15 to 20 percent of the time.
Martha Skinner commented that if we go into the parking meters, or other type of
fee collections the Park Rangers will also be responsibile for siting and fees
collections and things like that. It will increase that time and decrease some of
the other functions they are doing.
Nan Klein, "I would say we are almost entirely compliance orientated right now. We
try to throw in education whenever we can. Every site we go to, that is what our
primary objective is, make sure everything is safe. We do a visual of equipment,
and so forth, safety things, and we just go out among the people and talk, and see
what's going on. So, we do compliance everywhere we go. It's the majority of our
job. We're always trying to sneek in educational, but. . . "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "It's basically compliance through education. It's not compliance
by going out and slapping fines on people, but to educate the people of what we
have there, and what they should do. "
Nan Klein, "Some examples of that: (1) In our approach, the way we approach
things, is someone is at the park, and they have a dog, we don' t have a wall up.
It's. . . (Hi! How are you? Oh you have the cutest dog, I'm a dog person.) Talk
for a while, and then usually the person says. . . (Oh! I thought you were coming
26
over here to tell me I couldn' t have a dog in the park!) We'd say. . . (Well, you
aren' t.) Then they leave. It's always compliance. We're always encouraging
compliance. We don' t have the type of stone-wall approach to it. It's a friendly
approach, it's an educational approach. (2) When we are talking to people on the
beaches, and they're on the sea oats, we don' t rush up there and say (A11 right!
Get all your stuff out of the sea oats!) . We talk with them for a while, and we
explain what we are doing. "
As far as the citations: Mr. Gary Franco, "There is direct conflict with the
Department of Leisure Services and Parks and Recreation to go out and just for the
sake of slapping on a quota system issue people sitations in their parks. That's
not what we're saposed to be doing. We will for major violations. "
Nan Klein, "We don' t have a problem with citing people. We are very happy to be
certified for that as a matter of fact. We have very few problems in our park.
The things that we have that we would want to cite for are people that drive up in
the park, right past all the signs, through the dunes, then get their car stuck on
the beach and yell at us because it's our fault because they didn' t see the sign.
Those are the type of things we thought important enought to cite people for. The
people that are every night bringing in a case of beer to the ball game, after
we've told them over and over. We are happy to cite people that do that. But, we
hope that we don' t get into a situation where someone says (OK. You guys aren' t
turning in enough citations) . First of all, then also all that money goes to the
court, and then we'd have to stay in court all day. "
Chairman Kobza, "First of all, I think that's probably a natural consequence. I
mean I wouldn' t want you to not give citations because you're going to be in
Alp-
court. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "What we're looking at, Kim, is someone who's just got a. . . Comes
into the park with a beer, for example. You don' t run up to that person and cite
him the first time. Maybe you just tell him the first time, (Please, know you're
not saposed to have a beer. . .) and usually what they do is (Oh! I didn' t know, and
they'll. . .) . But, if you get that person like Nan said, that keeps bringing a case
of beer in, then we have the authority to issue that citation. Also, parking
offenses, we can patrol the parking lots, because of parking offenses, we can issue
citations right there. "
Nan Klein, "We think it's a very positive change. We're glad that we don' t have to
call anybody, as far as we are concerned. Out of a million people, there is a few
people that keep irritating us, and we're not afraid to give them a ticket at all.
I have not had them printed yet, althought he form is approved. Whenever it comes
back from Tallahassee, we'll probably send it to the printers right then. We are
all ready to go. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas asked how the environmentalists are dealing with the
biodegradables from the horse?
Chairman Kobza said, "I want to focus a little bit on the cost side of it. There
is specific questions that we're getting consistently hammered at, and I think that
we ahve to be specific in our thinking on the cost side. That we're getting the
maximum. We have to be able to articulate if we're getting the maximum exposure
or what is being spent. I think that to prevail on the public discussion and the
continuation and expansion of the program we're going to have to be to do that.
27
0
Just in my experience with the political end of things. What types of things from
your perspective would improve our ability to provide and deliver services? For
instance, one of my reaccuring thoughts is that we have four Rangers spending a lot
of road time which could otherwise be spent with a presence in the park. I don' t
know that I really fully subscribe to a 15 minutes snapshot of a Community park,
and that's enforcement, or that's presence. OK, and it takes and hour to get there
and you've got 15 minutes in the park. See, that's not a very good trade-off. But
to say that it takes 15 minutes to get there, and there's and hour in the park.
That's a little different situation. So how do we accomplish that?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "Well, Gary & I talked about this quite a lot. We would be ever so
happy to be in districts. You ought to have Rangers in districts the same as the
park service in districts, and the the Ranger be responsible for that district.
There would be probably beaches in that district, and Community Parks in that
district. With the exception of Immokalee, and no beaches. To have someone do
their 40 hours in a district, we have not been able to do because we lock the
parks, we're just spread out all over, there is not enough people to do it. "
Chairman Kobza, "So, is one more Ranger going to provide the ability to do that?"
Ms. Martha Skinner, "Not for the new one being hired, because that position has
Barefoot Beach full time. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "We had asked for an additional Park Ranger in order to get into
that districting concept. That would give us basically five Park Rangers plus the
one from Barefoot Beach that we could work out some schedule. Like, say Nan will
4 be here in the Golden Gate area. That's your area, and we'll work out a work
schedule where you can be the most effective in your area. That would mean that
you would go to the Golden Gate Commmunity Park, Aaron Lutz, Palm Springs, places
like that and spend some time there. That's what we had tried to do with the
additional Park Ranger. However, it was rejected. In order to set up the program
with the new Ranger with a truck, uniform, etc. the estimate was approximately
$50,000. The salary of the Park Ranger is a small part of that, but the vehicle
and so forth. . . The Board had asked us to say maybe we can get a tradeoff by not
buying a new vehicle and things like that, however they wouldn' t go for that they
just cut the position. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do you feel Nan, that there is some duplication here, as far as
the Sheriff's responsibilities and the things that you're attempting to do. Do you
feel that perhaps we should solicit the Sheriff's Department to assume more
responsibility consequently giving you the opportunity to do other things that you
might find necessary to do. What I'm saying is. . . I have some concerns that some
of the things that you're doing, being asked to do, are basically the Sheriff
Department's responsibilities. They are being paid to do this, and they should do
it. They are not doing it at the present time. I think you should be doing some
other things that fall within your capability and your bailiwick that are
important. My question being, don' t you think that we should solicit the Sheriff's
Department to assume some of those more serious for want of a better discription.
Serious responsibilities. "
Ms. Nan Klein, "We work very well with the Sheriff's office. In certain areas in
particular. North Naples, excellent! We have a very good working relationship
C with North Naples with the Sheriff's office. Marco is so so. When there is a true
evergency, they come for us, right away. The thing that they have trouble
28
understanding, when we've called them before, and why we are so glad to have our
certification for citations, is on resource violations. They're great on
(i.e. if a husband and a wife are arguing) we don' t touch that. We call the
Sheriffs Office. They have arrest powers, and that's what they're there for. If
somebody, I've had this happen, drove up on a dune and tore it up, and I couldn' t
get the State Officer there, and the Sheriffs Officer came. He wasn' t sure what to
write. So, in certain cituations they're great! In other situations we handle
some of the other resource violations, that type of thing. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "What is the little girl that runs aroung Tigertail Beach on that
Three Wheel thing? What category does she fit into?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "She's a Community Service Officer. She's a not certified Law
enforcement officer. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, we have the Marine Patrol, the Sheriffs Dept. , the
Community Service Officer, now it seems to me that they should, this would be
assuming more responsibility but I'm repeating myself, which will allow your people
to do other things that are also very important to accomplish and I questions
whether they are fully assuming those responsibilities. "
Ms. Nan Klein, "Well, I can say, in that particular case at Tigertail beach, she's
really good. She helps out a lot. She get's after the park visitors. She's very
good!"
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well we had an incident recently at Tigertail beach where a
family was walking out from the end of the beach towards Sand Dollar, and they were
at a point where it drops off. I noticed this, and so I went down to the beach,
and I told her about it, and she said 'Well I'm sorry, I don' t know what I can do' ,
and I said why don' t you run your little cart down there and tell those people
they're in danger. Well she said 'That's not my responsibility. ' So went over and
talked to the Marine Patrol person sitting in his boat there on the beach. He said
it was not his responsibility. Now who in the world's responsibility is it to keep
those people from conceivably drowning?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "We feel like that's our responsibility. I'm not saying it is, or
it isn' t. I don' t want to have an opinion about they're office, but we feel that's
our responsibility. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "First of all, doing what they're saposed to be doing, and second
of all, again, whether they couldn' t take over some of the responsiblities that
your'e involved in. "
Ms. Geneva Till, "Nan, what if you aren' t there on site and you see this danger and
these people are on site? I would think that anyone could help out. "
Ms. Nan Klein, "I have to say, just for the flip side of it. The people in the
Sheriffs office are trained differently than us. They have a different approach.
They are on the look out for criminal behavior, or criminal mischief. A lot of
environmental things might not interest them. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "They're jobs are to serve and protect the public. That in
essence is they're job. This would be an instance of protecting the public, so I
can' t agree with you there. "
29
Mr. Murdo Smith, "If it's the same spot we're looking at Gil, we have also
installed signs there. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Murdo, they ignor those signs. The signs are a prtection in the
event they drown. That they can' t turn around and say that the County has not
adequately warned us. We've done our job. You've done your job. But if some
idiot wants to swim across at the wrong tide in twenty feet of water and drown, it
is his perogitive. "
Chairman Kobza, "How much equipment do we have devoted to this program?"
Staff answered, "We four trucks, all equipped, and each one of those units cost
about $14,000 and the equipment maybe a couple thousand dollars. An additional
expanse of a radio which is about $2,000 plus misc. supplies would run about
another $1,000. Most of their things are a one time purchase. We have one beach
vehicle, and it is stored at North Naples. It is carried on a little trailer. "
Chairman Kobza, "Do you ever use that at Vanderbilt Beach?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "Not too much at Vanderbilt, because it is so small. Up at the
Preserve it is used, and run all the way up to the other park there, Barefoot
Beach. We use it down at Tigertail. It is a four wheeler. "
The Rangers were just assigned two more horses, so we have three horses.
Ms. Nan Klein, "Actually Wendy is learning how to ride right now. The Gray Gelding
has already been in the parks. He needs some fine tuning, and so does Wendy, and
they should be in service together. We have a three year old colt who may be ready
within a year, maybe earlier than that. "
Chairman Kobza, "What's the cost of upkeep on horses like that?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "Animal Control Dept. feeds them, so they get the grain and hay, and
I think Mr. Staudenmaier told me it was a dollar a day. They have the stable, and
all the facilities up there, and he feeds them. It costs us in our equipment (i.e.
like our trucks is a one time purchase) , some things wear out (i.e. bridals) , and
the only other thing that I buy is feed supplements. There is certain requirements
that horses need in this type of heat. So, Animal Control doesn' t buy those. I
get electrolites, and certain vitamins that they need. I pay the veteranerian. "
Chairman Kobza, "How long does it take to transport a horse from where they're
kept?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "At Animal Control on Airport Road. It takes me 15 minutes to get
here, for North Naples beaches it's the same as when I'm driving regular about 20
minutes. "
Chairman Kobza, "Under what circumstances do you determine that you use a horse as
opposed to going in a vehicle? How do you make that determination?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "Barefoot Beach Preserve the horse is perfect for. Round trip down
to the pass and back, I have three miles. I can cover that whole three miles
silently number one, I and see everything, I sneak through the woods and get all
the guys that are doing bad things. Community Parks, I can see everything. The
30
horse is perfect. I go into the Community Park with the exception of behind the
other side of the racquetball courts, or on the other side of the building, I can
see almost everything in one shot at a Community park. That's how I make those
kind of determinations, (i.e. Is it going to benefit me? Can I see? Do I have a
long way to go?) . "
Chairman Kobza, "Do you generally do it everyday or three days a week? How do you
decide something like that?"
Mr. Gary Franco, "Nan has recently. . . She has been out in the field exclusively
almost five days a week. I would say on the average at least two to three times a
week she's patrolling on horseback"
Ms. Nan Klein, "Actually, when I'm patrolling, you very rarely see me on an ATV or
in a truck in the park. I'm usually walking or on horseback. "
Ms. Martha Skinner, "Nan, could you just walk us through very quickly one typical
day in a Ranger's life, from the time you start, where you go, and what you do that
day. "
Ms. Nan Klein, "A typical day in a Ranger's life would be for instance. . . (End of
Tape 2-B) Go to where ever you vehicle is. We have vehicles parked all over the
County. Come to Golden Gate. We use the Racquet Center for a Ranger Station now.
You pick up your patrol log, and review the other Rangers patrol logs to see what
happened after you left last night. Answer any kind of messages on the thelephone
answering machine. Then you hit the road. At this time of year, on that shift,
we're into the Summer Camps interpretive prorams. So, very often a typical day at
this time of year is get all that done in the Office with the patrol logs, run out
and do a slide program, or a nature game with the children at one or maybe two
community parks, and then you're off and running. It's almost time for the ball
games to start, so you start going around a loop to the ball games. Then its time
to close the parks. Also right now we're squeezing in a trip to Barefoot because
our hatchlings are coming out just after sunset. Then back to Golden Gate to hang
up your log and all that kind of stuff, and lock up this park. We also do the
school system. We've been trying for a long time. This year it's kind of catching
on. We did all of Bethune, I think Wendy had 280 or some phenominal day, she had
back to back programs all day with the children there. Joe Boscaglia did Golden
Gate Elementary, the entire first grade there. So we're now making some
appearances in schools too. I think that's going to catch on too, because they
have budgetary problems. "
Ms. Geneva Till, "I think they cut back in 4th Grade Science trips, so you all will
be great if you can fill in that slot. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'm sure Nan, that you have done a remarkable job as far as these
horses are concerned. You're obviously very dedicated. In all honesty, I have
owned as many as five horses over a period of 20 years. I've raised horses.
Horses are expensive. They're a problem, they can be a pain in the. . . They're
dangerous, I have personally experienced some terrible accidents. I've been thrown
from horses many times, my kids have been kicked, and unless this is done right, I
is potentially a dangerous situation. I would want to be very sure that these
horses are trained properly. I think you used the word crowd control. If that's
how they are going to be used, then they've got to be disciplined and you've got to
be darn sure. I've seen horses kick people, and put them in hospitals for weeks.
31
It's not a pretty site, believe me! I am not convinced that these horses are all
capable of doing that, I'm concerned about the costs. Not only the vet bills, the
feed, the stabling, the trainer, the trailering, the time that it takes you to
train. I know you certainly give us a great deal of time and do so dilligently.
Perhaps, as a suggestion, maybe what we might be able to do, is to keep a close
accounting of what this is costing over a period, let's say a year. Keep and exact
record of what this is costing, and then compare it at a later date with another
alternative method of accomplishing the same thing. Because, I know horses, and
believe me. . . You talk about getting three horses, and that's fine, but horse
people. . . That's a little trick that horse people have. When a horse gets too
expansive to handle, they offer them to somebody and think they're getting a great
deal. Actually, they're so glad to get rid of the darn things because it's costing
too much to own them. So, that's probably what's happened in this case. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "These were horses that were abused, and the one that Nan has
outside has several stab wounds all over it. They were confiscated by the County. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "That might not be the case here, but believe me, as I said
earlier, I know horses, and they can be extremely costly, they be can be extremely
dangerous. And if you're going to use them for crowd control, they better darn
well be trained, because you can end up with a multi-million dollar law suit on
your hands. "
Ms. Martha Skinner, "Have you had any concern as far as liability, thus far?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "Oh! You mean if that something that happened? I gues you know I
I 4111. could maybe sum it up a little bit for you. First of all, I have to confess, I'm
not originally a Park Ranger. I've always wanted to be a Park Ranger, but I
started out in the horse business. That's what I actually went to school for,
training, and I've been with horses about 25 years, I've been riding them.
Probably training them for 15 or more. I agree with you totally. Horses can be
expensive, they can be very dangerous, the liability tricky. I'm in an
organization, Mounted Police use from all over the Country belong to an so forth.
Liability is always in our magazines and so forth. All that can happen. I can
tell you that the horse that I have out here has had here moments. Not in a park
though. Not with a crowd. I trained her for a year steady, on the farm, and then
I took her to a National Mounted Patrol training in North Florida also. Training
is a continuous process. I mean, I don' t just. . . I train here all the time. I
don' t think, OK, she got that done, so I never have to do it again. I train all
the time. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, you know and I know Nan that you have a bid, tremendously
powerful animal with a very small brain that requires continuous training. I'm
glad you're consious of that because it concerns me. "
Ms. Geneva Till, "Do we have liability insurance?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "I don' t personally have anything, although is made available to me
as a member of the National Mounted Services Organization. The County has
liability insurance. I have to tell all of you though, that horses are big and
powerful, and they can be potentially dangerous and this and that and the other
thing. There are certain rules that I go by. No-one feeds the horse, I never hold
anybodys baby for a picture, no one ever rides the horse, or anything like that.
4 Safety is absolutely first with me! If my horse feels tense, I don' t go in. "
32
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, they're as unpredictable an animal as I've ever known in my
life. I'm glad to here you feel so confident. That makes me feel better, but I'm
just. . . "
Ms. Nan Klein, "I wouldn' t to hesitate to back off from a situation if there's a
potential problem. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK I'm glad to hear you say that, because it concerns me, and we
don' t need a problem like that right now in the Parks and Recreation Dept. We have
other problems. One other thing, I was under the impression that this Sea Turtle
monitoring business was the responsibility of the Environmental Department.
They're paying somebody $28,000 to protect sea turtles. Why are we involved in
that?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "The Department of Natural Resources is. . . I don' t know what
department the money comes from, but that's for the renourishment area down on
Marco that they've paying a consultant. Barefoot Beach Preserve, no one in the
State or the Conservancy for years has been monitoring it. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "But I got the impression, from what you said earlier, that you're
spending a considerable amount of time monitoring baby sea turtles and it just
doesn' t seem to me that should be the responsibility of the Park and Recreation
Department. Monitoring Sea Turtles. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "It's at one of our Park sites Gil. We'll probably wind up doing
the same thing at Tigertail or having a contractor come and do that also. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "It's not the Environmental Department's responsibility?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Not that I know of. "
Chairman Kobza, "One preception, and I'm kind of picking up a little bit on what
Gil's saying. I think that would probalby be a good idea to try to provide the
basis for evaluation of the Program at specific points in time. You know you're
very committed to the program. That's very apparen to me. That comes through, and
I know you believe in everything you're doing, and you communicate that very well.
Sometimes what happens in your relm is very apparent to you, and it's not so
apparent to political bodies, because those people are not by nature in what they
do are necessarily going to be familiar with it. OK I think that perception. . . I
just know one of my misperceptions with the horses was 'Man this has to be a lot
more expensive that putting a 3 or 4 wheeler out on the beach and doing it that
way. ' You've changed that a little bit, I can understand some pluses that I
couldn' t understand before, but I think that to explain it well, and to be able to
respond to inevitable questions that are going to come, if not this year, next, and
not next year the following. You're going to have to provide the basis for
evaluation and have something to point to. I think that the issues that Gil raised
are good issues. Those are the kinds of things that are going to be asked on a
repeated basis and it may not be this County Commission, it may be another one. I
t may not be this board, it may be the next board. I think you have to be smart
about this. The first time that somebody gets injured by a County Park Ranger
horse, you're going to hear a public outcry! Oh my gosh! The worse thing would be
is it'd be a kid at an event or something (i.e. Kids Day) . I hate to see the
program rise and fall on that and not have the ability to evaluate it, and say Oh!
we had a near miss. We learned from that, and we modified the program in this
33
fashion. I think that would be the smart thing to do, in my mind. I think too,
that if we look at this a year from now, and we can say (i.e. The costs are
comparitively small) that give us a better filiment of our responsibility as
opposed to us just saying (i.e. Well, we think the costs are mimimal becauue. . .) .
If we have actual costs to deal with. . . You see some of the things that we go
throuugh in terms of parking fees. You know what's the cost of attendance at the
beaches. Do you get a feel for what I'm. . . "
Ms. Nan Klein, "I know exactly. . . "
Ms. Martha Skinner, "I think you're right on the money. I think we have to justify
using this method over the ATV. See what falls out. What's the best method?
What's the most cost effective? We're going to have to do that at some point in
time. It's better to go ahead and do it now. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Ms. Skinner, I don' t think we should get too involved, and go
overboard on this horse thing, until we're sure we're on solid ground. I have a
feeling maybe we have a tendancy or that we are inclined to do that. Let's tread
carefully and make sure that's the proper route. You can make a tremendous
investment in this thing and find out it isn' t the proper route to go. So let's be
caution and not go overboard on all this horsing around. "
Chairman Kobza, "This program is very centered around Nan and her ability as, you
know, 25 years in horse background. "
Ms. Nan Klein, "Yes, But as her proficiency in that is recognized, she is quite
qualified then to do the training. . . "
Chairman Kobza, "Yeah. That's good. Thank God we have her. But, as a program,
when we go into. . . God forbid if anything would happen to Nan, or whatever. Then
would we have somebody as qualified?"
Ms. Martha Skinner, "Well, then I think she'll have to work with Gary and train
him. "
Chairman Kobza, "We need to have a basis for evaluation. I think we have to be
able to respond to questions and say. . . Yes, we have an ongoing evaluation program,
and this is what it is. We evaluate A, B , C. . "
Ms. Martha Skinner, "Do any other Counties in the State have a Ranger Program that
you are aware of?"
Ms. Nan Klein, "Actually, most of the Counties in the State have mounted police.
It's becoming more and more popular again. Haveing mounted using Police
Departments. Downtown Ft. Myers has it, Sarasota just came on board. Horses are
really coming back. They're coming back strong for inner City worker Police
Departments. They're used a lot for gang work and drug work. Tampa has mounted.
As far as Rangers, it's hard for me to say. State parks use them in big parks, in
big areas. We have kind of a unique Ranger Program because we're not certified Law
enforcement officers. We have what one person called one time, a pure Park Ranger
Program. There's a lot of Law enforcement certified Rangers. They all work for
police departments though, that are on horseback. National park service of course
uses horses. "
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Mr. Gary Franco, "We are in the process of attracting a different cost accounting
function associated with the Ranger Program. Specifically with the horses. At
some point in time, we will be able to give that information to you. Also, just
like law enforcement is not the primary goal or job of the Ranger Program, neither
are the horses. That's just another tool that we use to perform our functions, and
that's called Mounted Patrol, so please keep that in mind. "
Ms. Nan Klein, "Animal Control helps a lot. They feed and house the horses, Mr.
Staudenmeir bought the horse trailer, stuff like that. So a lot of the expenses
are covered by animal control. It's not just us. "
Nan left at this time to change into her riding gear, and to prepare the horses for
the remainder of her program, which was held outside.
D. MR. THRALLS LACK OF APPOINTMENT:
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Mr. Thralls was saposed to be approved by the BCC yesterday as a
member of the advisory board. . . Mr. Thralls called us early in the morning, and
and said that he had been asked to be appointed to the City's advisory board, and
if there would be a conflict in serving them both. We said that we didn' t think
there was a problem with serving them both, but we did check with the County
Managers to see and there was no problem. Sue Filson was presenting the item to
the BCC, and I believe that Mr. Thralls called at that time, and said that he would
like to be removed. Take it out of contention. The BCC is now readvertising for
that position. "
PARKING METERS-BUDGET REVIEW:
The County Board has been going through budget reviews. Murdo had asked for a
certain amount of money for next year's parking meters. At that time that we were
going through review, it was terminated. But, the Board, because the
Productivity's report. . . They want us to look into that. So, Murdo and staff
prepared a very comprehensive Boat Ramp report and it was handed out to each PARAB
member for review. We're going to go back and see what they want to do, and which
direction to take, and Marth Skinner was going turn the report in to the County
Managers office for feedback the following day. Martha Skinner asked for a
recommendation from PARAB.
951 BOAT RAMP EXPANSION:
Mr. Gil Mueller, "We were going to look into the possibility of expanding the 951
boat ramp. I think Property Management, or whatever they call themselves what
going to look into whether or not there was any additional property available
adjacent to that site. Did anything ever come of that?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "That's in this report. If we want to use that, we must come up
with a design to send to the State for approval. In order do that. . . "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "You mean use the property that might be available. "
Mr. Mudo Smith, "The State owns the property. What they want to see is designs.
They want to see a design so they can give their approval or denial on what we want
to use it for. It would cost some dollars to do. So, if that's what the Board, or
the County Managers wishes us to proceed in doing, that's in this report. Expanded
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parking. "
PARAB'S AUGUST MEETING:
Chairman Kobza, "Two things that we need to do. Are we having an August meeting.
We had said that if there were any month that we were going to delay, and not have
a meeting, it would be August. "
Ms. Geneva Till, "That's true. I might not be here. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "I won' t be here. I'll be in Talahassee for a little while. "
Ms. Geneva Till, "I think that's the week that our school is out. I won' t be here
either. "
Chairman Kobza, "If we move it to shortly after Labor Day, like in the first couple
weeks of September, would. . . Say we had enough business, would it be OK if I
requested that Murdo set a special meeting for like the second week in September?"
Mr. Gil Mueller, "And have then have another meeting in September?"
Ms. Martha Skinner, "Where are you going to start the public hearings? Are going
to have to cut up for that beforehand?"
Chairman Kobza, "That's going to depend upon what the outcome is for this. . . "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Boy! I don' t know! There's so much to be accomplished. There's
so much that we've got to do! I hesitate to either eliminate a meeting or to push
it back up. Would it be convenient to you Mrs. Till if we were to have it the week
prior to the the time that you're going to be gone?"
Ms. Geneva Till, "I think, that starting that 22nd. that you're going to have meet
here at 2:00 rather than 1:30. Would that make a big difference to these meetings?
Wether we start at 2:30 rather than 1:30, or start without me. Because I'm just a
few blocks down here on Santa Barbara, and I would come directly here. I think
that's the week that we're going to be starting that. "
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I personally would have no problem with that. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "I'm home every Friday, but I'm gone Monday to Thursday. "
Chairman Kobza, "I think there are two things. Number one, you're asking to change
the time of the meetings, and part of the problem is that staff starts taking off
at five. So that is the problem. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "All that really. . . Persons here is Ramona and I. We can just
accomodate you all. "
Chairman Kobza, "Mrs. Thomas would later work?"
Ms. Geneva Till, "2:00 be better than 1:30?"
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "It is not a discussion with me at all, because I won' t even
be here. "
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Chairman Kobza, "No. Not. . . Generally. "
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Oh. You're talking the other. Starting in September?"
Mr. Gil Mueller, "2:00 as opposed to 1:30? That's fine with me, sure!"
Chairman Kobza, "On August, if we would move the meeting ahead to say the third
Wednesday instead of the fourth Wednesday?"
Ms. Geneva Till, "No. I believe the fourth is better. Let's keep it. "
Chairman Kobza, "And if we would have our new appointment at that time, at the
August meeting?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I hope! I can' t gaurantee. "
Ms. Geneva Till, "Listen! I think it's the third Wednesday that I would have a
problem. Yeah. That will be alright with me. The 28th. would be better. "
Chairman Kobza, "At two o'clock then on the 28th?"
Mr. Gil Mueller, "And you will be here regardless? OK"
Chairman Kobza, "OK So our meeting will be August 28th at 2:00. OK Then it will
be the fourth Wednesday at 2:00 thereafter. "
4:50 p.m.
25 METER POOL:
Chairman Kobza, "Murdo, quick question for you. Did they decide to accept your 25
meter pool? Did they get to that?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "25 meter pool. "
Ms. Martha Skinner, "That's what the funding is for. "
Chairman Kobza, "Is the 25 meter pool?"
Ms. Martha Skinner, "um-hm"
Chairman Kobza, "And that was partially because the Y is going to build a pool out
here. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "No, I think it was just because the County Manager had expressed
some concerns about the maintenance and upkeep costs of the larger pool, plus the
additional construction costs. "
Chairman Kobza, "OK"
Ms. Martha Skinner, "Quite a bit more!"
0 Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yeah. It was almost 3 million dollars versus half of that."
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TIGERTAIL HAND RAKING:
Mr. Gil Mueller, "May I bring up two very positive things? First of all, as Murdo
Knows, they raked Tigertail Beach. Hand raked it, Saturday, and there's a 400
percent improvement. It looks great! They're coming back out on Sunday to rake it
again. All will the little hand rakes. So the beach is looking good other than
isolated places of islands of vegetation. . .
FRANK MACKLE EXPANSION:
. . .secondly, I was at Mackie yesterday, and there are putting the finish painting
on and there is very little to do other than to clean up, and that's looking really
great! So a lot of progress is being made in both instances. I do think that they
are having a major meeting there tomorrow night incidentally, and there still is a
lot of windows that they have taken out which they're going to have to move before
that meeting. "
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Did they get a CO on using the complete building?"
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, they'll probably just be using the old parts, the existing.
I have to check and see if they got a CO on the building yet, to use it. . . We are
saposed to take those windows out of there so we can use them again. "
VIII. ADJOURNMENT:
Mr. Gil Mueller motioned to have a belated adjournment, after the horses. Ms. Geneva Till
seconded the, and the motion passed unanimously with a 3-0 vote.
41: TD:003588
C
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