Minutes 01/23/1991 R Parks & Recreation
Advisory Board
( PARAI 3 )
Minutes
January 23 , 1991
MINUTES
COLLIER COUNTY PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office
January 23, 1991
PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman ABSENT: Ms. Geneva Till
Mr. Steve Ball, Vice Chairman
Mr. Gil Mueller
Mr. Murdo Smith
Ms. Cherryle Thomas
I. CALL TO ORDER:
The meeting began at 1:35 p.m.
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Approval of the Minutes for the 11/28/90 and 12/27/90 meetings. Mr. Gil Mueller commented that he wants Mackie
Park left on the Action List until the construction is completed. Chairman Kobza had one change that needed to
be made on item number eight (8), which was the Pools. The second paragraph from the bottom, on the first full
page of that discussion. It said, "Mr. Kim Kobza said, I had a Developer/Benefactor from the community that's
ready to lay 4 million dollars on the table." It was a 1/4 million dollars. Since the County Manager, and the
Board of County Commissioners have already received a copy of the minutes, Chairman Kobza stressed the importance
of sending them a corrected copy as soon as possible because he did not want the County Commission misconstruing
that. Mr. Steve Ball moved to approve the minutes of November 28, 1990 and December 27, 1990 as presented, and
as modified by the Chairman. Mr. Gil Mueller seconded, and the motion passed unanimously. The vote was 3-0.
V. BONITA BEACH PARK:
Mr. Mike Dumbrowski, Coastal Engineering presented an update of joint Collier/Lee County Park site. The County
has been committed to this project by the Board of County Commissioners. An Inter-local Agreement is needed to
state duties/functions of each County. Cost of approximately $100,000 for Collier, depending upon location of
the entrance road, and approximately $800,000 for Lee County. This item will be on Action List and if necessary
Mr. Dumbrowski will return with updates.
IV. ACTION LIST:
5. POOLS:
Mr. Glen Bridges made a presentation of a history of the work that had been done in the past months on the
pool, which was Master Planned for the Golden Gate Community Park site. The pool is currently proposed for
funding the next fiscal year, and the Parks & Recreation thinking so far has been guided by the County
Growth Management Plan and the Golden Gate Park Master Plan. The task was to determine how an Olympic Pool
would best be sited at Golden Gate Community Park. The preliminary layouts show that the Olympic facility
was planned to include a 50 meter by 25 yard rectangular swimming pool. It would be about five (5) feet
deep. A 60 feet by 25 yard diving pool, which would be complete with one (1) meter and three (3) meter
spring boards, and then a ten (10) meter diving tower is in the Master Plan. There would be a warm-up spa
in the diving pool area, a wading pool, and a bath house. Initially, planning showed office space, locker
rooms, and a snack bar. The direction that Wilson Miller was given concerning the primary uses of this
facility were for recreational and instructional acquatics for all ages of the general public. But it
would be designed to the standards of organizations that govern swimming and diving competitions. Another
assumption was the pool facility would provide year round recreation. In other words, it would be heated,
and used by the general public. Since it would provide the capability of hosting local, state, or national
meets in swimming, diving, water polo, and synchronized swimming, research into the size facility required
to meet those standards would be required. We determined that for the pool facility itself, it would take
a little over a three (3) acre site as a minimum, it's about 360 feet by 360 feet. Located on the park
site, you are talking about an area about the size of our existing baseball field. The area just on the
west side of the soccer field where the existing children's play area is and Northeast of the
Administration building was selected for their preliminary layout of this facility. The site is not
generous. This also assumes that no new parking is constructed as part of the pool facility itself, but
instead the existing parking and proposed parking would be used for the facility, and then parking during
peak hours possibly would be a scheduling type of control. Proposed facilities include a: 50 meter
swimming pool, diving well, spa back behind the diving well, wading area, bath house, entrance to the bath
house, snack area, equipment room, the deck area around the pool allows for some bleacher viewing area, and
sidewalks. Estimated cost would be from 2.6 to three (3) million dollars to construct the facility. In
researching the literature, and the experience of the park staff, there is a growing trend in public pool
facilities towards something other than a conventional swimming pool. Moving towards a water park type of
facility where you would maybe put in a slide, a fountain, or a zero depth pool. The benefits of those
types of facilities is revenue generation. Depending upon what you do, you can generate revenue by
charging admission that would offset maintenance costs, operating costs, etc. In order to take the next
step in looking at that type of facility, more research needs to be performed. We have been talking with
other agencies, (i.e. City of Cape Coral Parks Department is planning a water park facility).
PARAB Meeting
1/23/91 minutes
Page #2
IV. ACTION LIST:
5. POOLS (continued):
They hired a specialty consultant to do a feasibility study, and looked at the demographics of the area,
projected attendance, the types of water park facilities that would be built, and arrived at an admission
charge. They projected revenues and then compared that to operating expenses. That area is a specialty
area, and there are several consultants around the country that have database from having done that, which
is useful. The next step after that, would be to redo the site plan if that changes any, do a preliminary
design and get that approved, and then move into final design, bidding, and construction. Chairman Kobza
requested to have an understanding of the revenues to be generated, and the thinking behind those
enhancements. He wants to make sure that as the demographics change over time, in the area too, that we
are not just building for today's demographics, but tomorrow's demographics. Murdo commented that when we
have baseball and softball going at night, the parking lot is jam packed. One of the solutions to the
parking problem would be to build a portion or the whole parking lot next to the softball fields. Mr.
Bridges commented that the county has parking guidelines on certain of our facilities. Assuming that they
are all fully used at the same time, we would need about 700 spaces. Mr. Steve Ball commented that it may
be such that we can only effectively operate 3/4 of the facilities at any any given time. Chairman Kobza
commented that we should ask the County Manager's office for guidance in the selection of a consultant with
respect to the revenue issues. Mr. Gil Mueller motioned that we make those recommendation's along those
lines that Mr. Kim Kobza specified. Mr. Kim Kobza, stated the motion is that we request guidance from the
County Manager's office with respect to the utilization of either in house resources or perhaps an outside
consultant for the purpose of providing us with recommendations and analysis on the feasibility of
construction of different alternatives to the Olympic Pool including specifically an analysis of the
revenue generating amenities as possible additions to the pool and also including an analysis of a design
alternative which incorporates competition type features to the pool. Perhaps, what we could do is to have
together with our request, a brief memo from Mr. Glen Bridges on which kind of summarizes on what's
happened to date, what they're cost would be and the County Manager can review that or the Assistant County
Manager and provide us with some direction. I think I'd encourage him to consult with you on the need for
an outside consultant versus in house. The motion passed unanimously, with 4-0 vote.
4. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING:
Mr. Edward Ewing demonstrated the electronic Park Master IV. Mr. Bob Legler presented a preliminary review
of some fees that we could generate at the 951 boat ramps. (1) staffing the parking lot full time (2)
going with parking meters (3) staffing the parking lot part time or (4) staffing just a couple of hours
on peek days. The only electricity there is for the security lights. There are only 16 spaces to park,
when those 16 spaces are full, people park along the roadway. There have been counts of 30 cars with
trailers parking there. The county doesn't own anymore property so there is no room to expand the lot.
Murdo suggested checking into the feasibility of getting some type of concession again at the Coast Guard
site as well as looking at other alternatives for additional revenue. Mr. Gil Mueller felt that it is
something we should be discussing; there are other places where revenue may be acquired through various
sites in the county also. Mr. Mueller also feels that the parking problem at the 951 boat ramp is only
just beginning. When the Marco Shores and the Lely Development goes on stream that boat ramp is going to
be probably the most popular boat ramp in the County.
NOTE: Lost tape. Remaining minutes from notes taken by hand only.
1. RECYCLING:
Bob Legler reported that 50 recycling containers are currently being placed out for bid by the Solid Waste
Department, and they will take approximately ten days to two weeks for bids. Gary Franco will help with
planning the placement areas within the parks. Bob Legler said that he had no information on recycling
bottles and plastics. No action required.
2. TIGERTAIL VEGETATION:
The Sea Turtle protection plan is completed, and the plan will be sent it to St. Pete as soon as possible
for review. Vegetation Planting and Maintenance approval plans will to before the BCC to assure
compliance. No sea turtles were counted at the beach this year. No action required.
3. IMMOKALEE AIRPORT PARK BATHROOMS:
Murdo Smith presented the plans. There were some concerns on septic tanks. The design is complete and
bids are at the Purchasing Department for this project. No action required.
6. VANDERBILT BEACH ACCESSES AND PARKING:
There is not an access there next to the state park. The Transportation Department will try to pursue the
access issue. We've been authorized to put some bicycle racks at the five beach accesses.
7. NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS:
Mr. Steve Ball requested that this subject be taken off the Action List until we come up with plan for
future sites etc. Closely look at the levels of services.
Page #3
PARAB Meeting
1/23/91 Minutes
8. COMMUNITY CENTERS:
Will be on the BCC Agenda for the 5th of February for approval. Chairman Kobza will attend the meeting.
9. FOOTBALL/SOCCER FIELD IMMOKALEE:
Wilson, Miller, Barton and Peek has received the references from Kelly & Bowden. Hopefully the contracts
will be signed and complete when returned, then the county will sign. Notice to proceed in mid February.
10. DIVISION RESPONSIBILITIES FOR 1991:
Chairman Kobza commented that all five PARAB members need to be present for this discussion to take place.
Chairman Kobza updated Cherryle Thomas on past discussion of this subject from the joint City/County
meeting. No action required.
11. LISTING OF DONATED PROPERTIES:
Murdo Smith commented that the list is not available yet from Real Property. Hopefully it will be
available by the next regular PARAB meeting. Chairman Kobza explained that we are gathering this
information for the whole area of this County. We will not get the list until Real Property is completely
• finished.
•
NOTE: Chairman Kobza suggested to have classification of items on the Action list. For example: Presentations
first, Items needing board action next, and then updated last. Chairman Kobza suggested to make ours
similar to the BCC consent agenda. Murdo Smith then suggested to put presentation under the heading of
"Old Business" on the AGENDA. Chairman Kobza will work with Murdo on the Agenda and Action list format for
the next meeting.
FRANK E. MACKLE JR. COMMUNITY PARK EXPANSION:
The contractor has the contract documents. They must sign them and return to the County, and will have
them back to us by Friday and will hopefully have notice to proceed by mid February.
TIGERTAIL FOOD CONCESSION:
We have gone over the proposal & the Vendor is meeting with his attorney for review of the contract and
then will return the signed contract to the County for signature. Hopefully they'll open by the end of
February.
RECREATIONAL FACILITIES OF AMERICA:
PARAB asked when this will be presented to the BCC? Murdo commented that the executive summary is
completed, and it is Scheduled for the 5th of February for the BCC Agenda.
VI. ADJOURNMENT:
Mr. Steve Ball motioned to adjourn the meeting at 4:00 p.m. Mr. Gil Mueller seconded, and the motion
passed unanimously.
rtd:003045
4
PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Golden Gate Cortumnity Park, Administrative Office
January 23, 1991
I. CALL TO ORDER:
Tape 1, side A, 00.0 -- Tape 1, side A, 00.1
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG
Tape 1, side A, 00.1 -- Tape 1, side A, 00.3
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Tape 1, side A, 00.4 -- Tape 1, side A, 05.9
V. BONITA BEACH PARK:
Tape 1, side A, 06.0 -- Tape 1, side B, 10.4
IV. ACTION LIST:
Tape 1, side B, 10.4 -- Tape 2, side B, 23.6
5. POOLS:
Tape 1, side B, 10.4 -- Tape 2, side A, 09.0
4. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING:
Tape 2, side A, 09.1 -- Tape 2, side A, end
1. RECYCLING:
Tape 2, side B, 00.0 -- Tape 2, side B, 03.1
2. TIGERTAIL VEGETATION:
Tape 2, side B, 03.2 -- Tape 2, side B, 08.8
3. IMMOKALEE AIRPORT PARK BATHROOMS:
Tape 2, side B, 08.9 -- Tape 2, side B, 11.3
6. VANDERBILT BEACH ACCESSES AND PARKING:
Tape 2, side B, 11.4 -- Tape 2, side B, 13.6
7. NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS:
Tape 2, side B, 13.6 -- Tape 2, side B, 15.4
8. COMMUNITY CENTERS:
Tape 2, side B, 15.5 -- Tape 2, side B, 17.6
9. FOOTBALL/SOCCER FIELD I KALEE:
Tape 2, side B, 17.7 -- Tape 2, side B, 18.5
10. DIVISION RESPONSIBILITIES FOR 1991:
Tape 2, side B, 18.7 -- Tape 2, side B, 20.6
11. LISTING OF DONATED PROPERTIES:
Tape 2, side B, 20.7 -- Tape 2, side B, 23.6
VI. ADJOURNMENT:
Tape 2, side B, 23.6 -- Tape 2, side B, <?>
rtd:003071
MINUTES (Long Version)
COLLIER COUNTY PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Golden Gate Cczm unity Park, Administrative Office
January 23, 1991
PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman ABSENT: Ms. Geneva Till
Mr. Steve Ball, Vice Chairman
Mr. Gil Mueller
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, (arrived at 2:20 p.m.)
Mr. Murdo Smith
I. CALL TO ORDER:
The meeting began at 1:35 p.m.
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG:
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Approval of the Minutes for the 11/28/90 and 12/27/90 meetings.
Mr. Gil Mueller commented that he didn't get his packet of material until
Monday, and as a result he really didn't have a chance to look at them closely.
Mr. Gil Mueller also commented that he didn't see a Mackie Park update on the
Action List.
Mr. Murdo Smith stated that it was not on there, and the reason why, was because
it went to the board, and the Board approved it. That's what we have been doing
in the past, when it was approved by the board, if there was something on the
Action List, we just took it off the Action List. If you want it left on there
until the construction is over, we can do that.
Mr. Gil Mueller commented, "I would appreciate that." I'd like to know. . .
Mr. Steve Ball, ". . .keep you informed on how it's going."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Exactly! I see Glen is in the Audience, and am sure that he
can tell us how this thing is. We had discussed attendance, absenteeism, etc.
two months ago. I don't believe that we have discussed it recently. Now this
might be something you would prefer Mr. Chairman, to post pone till the next
meeting. Because I know there's a time situation here. I also wondered about
the Tigertail Food Concessionaire agreement, and what stage that is."
Mr. Murdo Smith requested that Chairman Kobza switch the Agenda so Mr. Mike
Dombrowski, from Coastal Engineering could go first to do his program on Bonita
Beach Park, and if Mr. Glen Bridges could go second, to give us an update on
pools. Those changes were made to the Agenda and the Action List.
Chairman Kobza had one change that needed to be made on item number eight (8) ,
which is the pools. The second paragraph from the bottom, on the first full
page of that discussion. It said, "Mr. Kim Kobza said, I had a
Developer/Benefactor for the community that's ready to lay 4 million dollars on
the table." It should say, "I had a developer that was ready to contribute 1/4
million dollars" It was a 1/4 million, not 4 million dollars. Since the County
Manager, and the Board of County Commissioners have already
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PARAB Minutes (long version)
1/23/91
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES (continued) :
received a copy of the minutes, Chairman Kobza stressed the importance of
sending them a corrected copy as soon as possible because he does not want the
County Commission misconstruing that. Outside of that there were no other
changes.
Mr. Steve Ball moved to approve the minutes of November 28, 1990 and December
27, 1990 as presented, and as modified by the Chairman. Mr. Gil Mueller
seconded, and the motion passed unanimously. The vote was 3-0.
V. BONITA BEACH PARK:
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, Coastal Engineering gave us an update of what has been
going on between Lee County Parks and Recreation Department, and Collier County
Parks and Recreation Department concerning the park on Bonita Beach Road.
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "We have a beach access, that's almost one park with Lee
County at the northern end of Collier County that we want to make one big park
for the residents of Collier, Lee, and Bonita Beach. The Board of County
Commissioners, between Lee and Collier County has had a number of meetings over
the years, in terms of joint meetings to discuss issues that effect both sides
of the County Line. One of the issues that has been coming up, is of course,
the Bonita Beach Park, and Barefoot Beach Park on the Collier County side.
About five months ago, TPe County put out an RFP for the improvements at the
Bonita Beach Park in Lee County, and we were fortunate enough to be awarded that
contract. We focused on the Lee side first, because mainly they have the most
problems out of those two parks. There was more improvements than what had been
mentioned or had been anticipated for the Collier County side. So, we really
focused in on Lee County's Phase I of this project. The site is basically an
open beach site, a number of Australian Pines, there's really no defined
parking. The access to the site is along the bend of the Bonita Beach Road.
There is the Collier County side, which is very close to Lee County side, in
terms of trying to interconnect the two. In our Site Analysis, we've also done
a User Survey from another sub-consultant, who is a parks and recreation
consultant. Looked at the different types of uses, what people were looking for
in this park. We've looked at also, the n Mber of persons per vehicle, to try
to get some type of idea of a waste-water and water generation rate. So one of
the things that we were going to do, was to design a bath house facility.
Basically through our analysis, and working up a few conceptual plans, is that
we ended off coming up with this. (presentation) Some of the preliminary plans
was basically reiterating or mimicking what was existing there as having two row
of double parking. But, one of the things that we want to do, is try to have a
more park-like feature or image to this. . . Or basically parking lot. What
resulted, was a liner roadway that swerves through the park property with this
parking on either side, single parking, 90 degree angle, allowing two way access
throughout the park. Some of the features of this. . . As I mentioned that there
was Australian Pines, and we would be removing the exotics which basically
leaves no shading structures what so ever. One of the things that we were going
to be doing, was putting a number of shade structures throughout the park.
There was going to be in-between 10 and 12. These would be about 12 by 12 or
so, with picnicking, grill area to provide a picnicking and also for shade.
Before the improvements or what is existing now is about 100 cars. With this
plan, it continues to be about 100 or 105 depending on how our Engineer kind of
twixt the site plan. Another thing that we are going to be doing is with D & R
Permitting, they very much see their Dune Enhancement that is either a dune
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PARAB Minutes (long version)
1/23/91
V. BONITA BEACH PARK (continued) :
enhancement that's either fortifying the existing dune, or at least dune
plantings. However, we had quite a bit of public input on this through the CAB
and also the Bonita Beach Association that there's a number of people that like
going down at night and seeing the sunset. So, what we proposed was, focusing
the people that come down for that one hour at night within this (display) area
in the dune enhancement would be low growing kind of transitional type of
species and the rest of the park would be sea oats, sea grapes, a great number
of cabbage palms, and so forth. The roadway was going to be a pervious surface
with a crushed shell rolled into it, and one of the things that we'll start to
look at, is maybe even doing the parking this way, and maybe putting an inch or
a half an inch of washed crushed shell, and to kind of give it more of a beach
atmosphere or beach image. The plan right now, is that the parking areas would
be four (4) inch geoweb with crushed shell overlaying. Another feature of the
park, is to have a bath house, which consists of some office and storage space
and men's and ladies room and also the dunes would be crossed over by a number
of walk-over accesses. So basically, it is a full feature park. We are also
looking at the direction of Lee County as providing a kind of playground for the
youngsters with some kind of climbing apparatus within this area (display) .
Collier County's participation in this is in one of two areas. One it
interconnects the two parks, which you can see is the transition between the Lee
and Collier County side. Secondly it is to provide a secondary access to the
site. What we have come up for the, and just conceptual, that we have done in
the last week or so. The County is the interconnection of the two parks
Q (display) . Basically, what it would be doing was interconnecting the two, and
taking out some of the paving within this, and rearranging the parking somewhat
to try to change the capacity of it. To make it more of a park like feature,
trying to expand the landscaping in through the park and try to get a continuous
park atmosphere. One of the other problems that is within this park, is that
they have a poor drainage problem that will be addressed also. I'm not sure if
it's just a problem of capacity, or if the out-falls are just are not large
enough for this. Another thing that we are going to be doing, is the same as
the Lee County side, is providing a number of shade structures. This kind of
backs right up nicely within the existing vegetation, that we'd be able to sneak
those shade structures within it, and provide grills and picnic areas. We would
be providing another dune access or walk-over through this area (display) right
here to try to support this area. One of the things that we were looking at,
was also to provide a crushed shell pathway along this Southern boundary of the
park. One of the things that when we initially were doing the conceptual design
of this was the issue of access. As you remember, the access is now through the
bend, which we have found out has turned out to be a very dangerous situation,
that looking at the transportation, there has been a number of accidents there.
On the other plan, we move the access to the north, at the farthest most point
of the Lee County property. At that point, we were just going to have a double
entrance and continue the entrance into Collier County basically, as it is
through the Lely Beach Park. Our initial plan was to have right in, right out,
left out, you know, double entrance here (display) and continue this entrance in
through here. But we started looking at, on a more hard-line scale and better
scale of drawing, was that this curve coming around here, and proceeding north,
it resulted in a poor transition. It resulted in a jog that we had some severe
concerns about in terms of danger that if having something that's a two (2) or
three (3) car capacity to turn left. We don't believe that it provides adequate
amount of site for safe turning motions. So one of the things that we've looked
at was to just have a right in, and a right out. Still providing just the
access in through Lely Beach Park. The third option, which I think works the
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PARAB Minutes (long version)
1/23/91
V. BONITA BEACH PARK (continued) :
best, was to eliminate this point through Lely, and move this a little bit to
the west, to align with the condominium that is on the Lee County side and
providing a nice intersection. And, that's what resulted from this rendition
here. Coming up with a double turn, within this access, and at the same time we
really don't lose much parking because of the areas that we could possibly take
in here (display) and also expand, we could also even provide a Cul-de-sac.
But, basically, that's where we are right now. In terms of the Lee County side,
we're hard-lining the drawings, we're doing the engineering drawings of it, we
hope to be going into the D & R permitting within the next two (2) to three (3)
weeks, and we've already met with D & R in Tallahassee to discuss the project,
and they've so far seemed very favorable of it. Of course you never know until
you go into the permitting aspect of it. But that's basically a brief
description of what is occurring, I'd like to spend more time on questions if
you have any."
Mr. Steve Ball, "What kind of approvals from the Counties are necessary or has
that already been taken care of?"
Mr. D unbrowski, "This was the conceptual Master Plan, which was brought to the
Lee County BCC and was approved for their side of the line. We are probably
going to need to go to the Collier County BCC within the next few weeks and at
least get approval in terns of the access into it. Murdo and I have sat down
and discussed this project, just over the last few day. As a matter of fact, we
4:, have a meeting next week with the Collier County Transportation Department to
try to hammier this out and go in with support on both ends."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Is there funds from both Counties to do the improvements that
are suggested."
Mr. Dombrowski, "Lee County does have about $800,000.00 to do that. Most of it
is going to be used for the infrastructure and road improvements. I think we
came out with about $600,000 or $700,000 for the improvements on one of our
estimates. Murdo would know more about the Collier side."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "From what I understand, there is going to be a percentage of
design fee, and the percentage of the construction costs that Collier County is
going to have to pay. I don't know how much that will be yet, but from what I
understand, the regional impact fees would be used for that project."
Mr. Steve Ball, "That's quite an improvement over what's there. It's going to
be a nice change. I like the shell idea too for the parking area, instead of
just having it paved."
Mr. Dombrowski, "One of the problems with that impervious surface was with D & R
requirements, it's a lot more difficult to get a permit, even though it is a
County project and also there is an issue of short parallel coverage, we're
basically 100% and their guidelines are more like 60%. But, we're decreasing
the amount of impervious surface, as compared to what's existing to what we're
proposing using the type of materials that they kind of like to see. The dune
enhancement, you know, we'll be doing that on both sides of the line. So we
feel that there's a lot of favorable improvements in this to gain their
approval."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Is that restaurant still there, right next door?"
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PARAB Minutes (long version)
1/23/91
V. BONITA BEACH PARK (continued) :
Mr. DXunbrowski, "Yes. Doc's is still there. Test week I heard that there was a
movement to get that removed. Because, to tell you the truth, on the other side
of Doc's they have about a three acre beach site there which would possibly
interconnect the whole parcel."
Mr. Steve Ball, "It looks like there's a drainage pipe that goes across the
road, or what is that?"
Mr. Mike Dxunbrowski, "It's a bike path, as a matter of fact, I think it's
existing now, or at least a portion of it. There's a bike path that goes along
on the opposite side, so we're just going to connect those two in."
Chairman Kobza, "Is this where the intersection is up there? Is the
intersection you referred to, moving the access."
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "No. That will be up here (display) . This actually
basically comes like this. What's existing here now, is the entrance to that
condominium. There's about four (4) or five (5) towers on the Lee County side.
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I've observed that beach on any number of occasions, and
observed license plates, and I find that the majority of the people there using
the beach are Lee County people. I'm just wondering how that will correlate now
with this arrangement with Collier County. How that can be balanced out
someway."
(j., Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "In our user survey, and I don't know the exact numbers
that we did our user survey that identifies the distribution between Lee and
Collier County. I'm not exactly sure, but I can give that to Murdo, and update
you on the next one."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'd like to have that."
Mr. Mile Dombrowski, "But, it was pretty even, and although that there are a lot
of Lee or Collier County plates, it's not really indicative of if they're from
that. Because in some portions of Bonita, it's closer to go down to Collier
County to get License plates. That's one thing that we have found out about
that area."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "That's not the norm though. Well, I was just concerned about
an imbalance here, that Collier County Tax payers' , paying for this versus Lee
County Tax payers, because as you know, we don't change to get in to that beach
and we're not gaining any revenue from it, and I'm wondering if any additional
substantial investment in it is advisable."
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "My understanding with the financial aspect of it is
anything that occurs on whoever's side of the line, is that county is
responsible for it. Collier County is not paying for the design or construction
of the Bath House, or any of the improvements within Lee County. Collier County
is just going to be responsible for refurbishing what's existing there now. One
of the things that we believe that's going to happen, is how the parking lot
situated on the Collier County side, it's not fully utilized to it's potential."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Which parking lot are you referring to, the one that you turn
right to, immediately off the highway, or the one that you go through the gate
on down to Barefoot?"
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V. BONIZA BEACH PARK (continued) :
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "It would be this Barefoot beach park which is where you
access it through Lely and come down, and take a sharp turn down around, it's
existing there now. During they survey, although it was only taking place over
four (4) days, while the Lee County parking areas were at capacity, Collier
County side was at 50% or less. People just don't know. It doesn't really have
an identity of getting into it. There's no real access, to identify it as a
park. Most of the people bypass Lely's entrance, and use Lee County's. They
just don't know how to get into it."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I think that as Lely Barefoot becomes better recognized,
and more highly used, and they realize how beautiful that beach is, and what
excellent facility it is, I think that will change. There'll be more people
using it, and again, this is highly speculative on my part, but I would be
concerned with putting any additional amount of money into this thing. We've
already put an enormous amount of money into it, and still not charge to get
into the beach. With the thought in mind, that the majority of the people are
from Lee County. Somehow there's an imbalance in my mind on that. Maybe it's
reconcilable, but right now, I'm a little uneasy about it."
Chairman Kobza, "When this park is completed, how many parking spots will there
be total?"
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "There'll be between 200 and 250, depending on what happens
to the access road. 100 on the Lee County, and I think right now, there's about
120 existing on the Collier County side. We're trying to increase that."
Chairman Kobza, "Will the final plan take it over 120 on the the Collier County
side?"
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "It may. Because weren't you also looking at possibly
expanding some of the parking up into this area (display) which used to be the
access road."
Chairman Kobza, "Now, is this a unified plan where the parking is continuous?
Is that correct? So, it really doesn't matter if you're coming in from the Lee
County side or the Collier County side. I presume it's open to everybody.
There's flow throughout the whole of the plan?"
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "Right! It'll be one continuous roadway throughout the
park, the beauty about having the two different entrances is that the northern
one is capturing the most of the traffic that comes from the north, that's the
right hand turn. This one will be capturing everything that comes in from
either Bonita or traveling west on Bonita Beach Road."
Chairman Kobza, "On that access point. How far is that proposed access point
from the entrance to the Lely Barefoot?"
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "It's about 160 feet."
Chairman Kobza, "You said that was the preferred access point."
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "In our view, yes. At least with Lee County, and it's
something that's we're also going to be discussing next week between Murdo and
Collier County's Department of Transportation (DOT) ."
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V. BONITA BEACH PARK (continued) :
Chairman Kobza, "What's the logic, why is it preferred?"
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "The First that that is does is give it it's own identity
saying this is the entrance to the park. The difference between these two, is
it's inconvenient for the people that use it. They really don't know that it's
there. Especially now that they're looking into. . . There's a joint agreement
about the improvements of Bonita Beach Road. Our discussion with Lee and
Collier DOT's that they feel someplace within this area that the four laning
will probably end. Which will provide a nice transition into the the four lane.
This will also be a good opportunity of possible signalization in the future.
And again, it's providing turn lanes, it's benefits both the condominium
association, and also just flow through traffic on Bonita Beach Road. We really
do not like having double access into the Lee County Side, just because of the
safety issue. Hazard traveling around from west, and you go around that bend to
the north, and there's just not enough clearance or view that you could possibly
see somebody turning if there's one (1) or two (2) . Lee County's standards are
two (2) to three (3) storage lanes for left hand turns. That almost brings it
right into the curve."
Chairman Kobza, "Does this plan then reduce the access points from three (3) to
two (2) as you proposed it?"
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "In essence, yes. You could count one, two, three, and
then these would. . . two be eliminated, and the third. . . and would be moved down
into the very northern extreme of the Lee County Project, and what that does
also, it gets it off of the bend, which we have some concerns about in terms of
siting distance for safety."
Chairman Kobza, "Do you feel comfortable with. . . Conceptually, that approach,
hits me as being the best approach limiting the access points. With that many
cars parking around that roadway, are you going to have more potential for
bottleneck within the parking lot itself?"
Mr. Mike Dunbrowski, "Actually, kind of on an average with beach parks, there is
about 1-1/2 car per day turn over. Possibly once the sun goes down, that's
sometimes when you get the biggest concentration of traffic leaving the park.
But with anything moving to the north up to Estero Island, would have to come
out through here, which there is going to be adequate amount of space for
turning movements. It would be a left hand turn lane, and there would also be
an adequate amount of space to o. That also gives the possibility in the future
that there is a bottleneck and a problem that it gives a better possibility of
signalization at that site."
Chairman Kobza, "I'm saying within the site itself, Do you have adequate space
for traffic?"
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "Yes. There should be. It's a 24 foot wide road, it's
right angle parking. One of the issues that Murdo brought up was people
speeding through this. One of the things that we looked at and going to put on
is speed bumps in the attempt of slowing down the traffic."
Chairman Kobza, "To my knowledge, Murdo, is this the first time that this has
come before us on the Bonita Beach Park"
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V. BONITA BEACH PARK (continued) :
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes"
Chairman Kobza, "I just wanted to say I really appreciate having this issue
before us, because I think it properly should be here, and we should be informed
of what's going on."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'm not so much concern about how it's going to be done. I'm
just curious, Mike, how did this thing get off the ground and who inaugurated
it, who suggested it, etc."
Mr. Mike Dumbrowski, "I guess this has been something that was discussed over
the years and just kept on building, and throughout the number of associations
that are up, you know within that, especially the Citizens Advocate Group of
Bonita Beach. The majority of the work has been funded by Lee County. As a
matter of fact, with Collier County coming in on the tails of Lee County, we're
actually decreasing a good amount of the cost for Collier. Because especially
to do the improvements, we're trying to do everything at once in terms of the
design documents, the construction drawings. The permitting is also going to be
expensive going through D & R beaches and shores. We're putting it all
underneath one application, so that in that aspect. . ."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "This is all news to me. I have not even heard of this before,
I haven't even heard rumors of it, and I guess I am a little shocked, in as much
as we've just finished up with this Lely Barefoot thing. Beautiful place. Much
money involved. That we're getting involved in something like this at this
time. I'm not so sure. With the money situation being what it is, that it's a
good idea. I'd like to know more about it."
Chairman Kobza, "I think this was a project of the joint Lee County/Collier
County Commission meeting. I know that one of the issues discussed was the
1 widening of Bonita Beach Road, and that's been a long standing issue. But now
the only remaining issue, is the funding of the bridge that's located just
before the park. But then the other issue was once that four laning is
accomplished, what are those people going to in terms of beach facilities and
everything else. I think this was kind of a product of those joint discussions,
and I can kind of understand why it didn't come down here, because the fact is
it was not spontaneous per say, but it certainly was at the initiative of the
County Boards working together."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "When is this going to be presented to the Collier County
Board?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "It all depends upon when we approve of one of the access
points, Gil. Hopefully we can get it within the next couple of weeks to the
board. Because the Board has of course, the ultimate decision on moving the
access, and so forth."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "The decision is to whether or not Collier Count will
participate in this."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "From what I understand, Collier County's already made the
commitment that they will participate in this, because we've been told to work
with Coastal Engineering and Lee County Parks and Recreation to develop this
park by the BCC."
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V. BONITA BEACH PARK (continued) :
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Again, I'm a little surprised. I'm not implying for a moment
that everything that they do relative the Park Board has to come through us.
But I'm a little surprise that this subject hasn't come up with us a long time
ago, because I think that we should be in a position to advise the Collier
County Board. As a matter of fact, I think that's our job, as to what we think
of this idea. Or am I on the wrong track here?"
Chairman Kobza, "I think it was because of the way it was initiated as between
the County Boards. It's not really within the normal channel of things or items
that we have full control over, and can start from scratch, and say let's bring
it to our process and. . ."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "It seems to me Kim, that the advisability of getting involved
in this thing is something that would be very pertinent to our job."
Chairman Kobza, "That's why my comment to Murdo, which is. . . You know they've
brought it back to us now, and we are looking at it, we're being informed, and
I'm presuming that if decisions are made with respect to proposed charges, etc. ,
we are going to have some input into it."
Mr. Steve Ball, "I think part of it to, was the study was actually initiated by
Lee County. They put together the RFP, and the funds to get where we are so
far, and probably that had a lot to do with the process that's it's gone
through."
Chairman Kobza, "Has there been any discussion or any plan for charges at all?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Not that I'm aware of."
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "I know that Lee County was possibly considering if not a
guard house, metering. But, at this time they've deleted that. For one thing
it was an aesthetic reason."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Have you been to their County Parks Board?"
Mr. Mike DXunbrowski, "I'm not sure if they have one. This was again, a
direction of the Lee County Board. The Master plan had been back to the Lee
County BCC and was approved. Actually where the public input had come in, is
that we had one workshop in Bonita Springs. We probably had about 30 or 40
people in the Bonita area, north Collier County area that reviewed it, and gave
comment."
Chairman Kobza, "How will policing take place?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "We have to come up with an Interlocal Agreement between
Collier and Lee County of what functions both parties will perform up there. Be
it maintenance, policing, improvements, and everything else. I believe that's
all included in there. So that will be addressed at that time."
Chairman Kobza, "So when do you expect that to come before us? Sometime after
construction, or. . ."
Mr. Murdo Smith ,"Hopefully it will come before construction."
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V. BONITA BEACH PARK (continued) :
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Mike, what kind of money are we talking about here. Give me a
Ballpark figure on this. The overall project."
Mr. Mike Dumbrowski, "Well the difference between the two entrances as compared
to what was originally proposed on this entrance here (display) was
approximately about $42,000."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I'm referring to the overall plan, all of the costs."
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "Yes. I'm trying to add everything up, so. . . The
difference between this (display) and this (display) right here, this (display)
was only about another $15,000. Again, I'm not sure if it's going to be Lee's
or Collier's. So that's (display) 15. We're talking about landscaping,
possibly 10 to 15 thousand. The interconnection between the two, in terms of
extending the roadway, taking out the asphalt within here, paving this (display)
little bit, that could be about (give or take about 100% or so, could be about
$7,500 to $10,000. Probably a Boardwalk that goes for about anything between
$20 to $22 per square foot. The structures could be upwards around $2,000 a
piece. Proposed conceptual, we're putting in at least six (6) of them. So that
will be about $18,000 or so."
Mr. Steve Ball, "What are those?"
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "These will be support of the shade and picnic area
structures."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "What about parking, blacktopping, that type of thing?"
Mr. Mike Dimnbrowski, "Right now, The only portion of the parking lot of that has
failed, is within this area (display) . The amount of improvements that go on
within this area, could be phased over time. The two big issues right now, is
the access, and the interconnection. If Collier County decides that year after
year, that they'll budget 'X' amount, they could go into landscaping next, one
of the things was the sand and shell pathway to try to direct traffic, try to
taking out some of the asphalt to provide some islands. Off the top of my head
it could be anything between 20 and 60,000 dollars."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Are you talking about the total amount?"
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "Yes".
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I was already up to 88, not talking about the most resent.
So, I think it will be in excess of $100,000. Do you have any ideas about how
this will be prorated between the two different counties, in terms of who pays
how much? Or, would it be prorated?"
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "Well, just what you have, 88 to 100,000 for Collier
County. Lee County's will probably be in the area of about $800,000. In terms
of who's going to be paying, again, Collier County is going to be paying for the
improvements on their side of the line, and Lee county is going to be paying for
the improvements on their side of the line."
Mr. Steve Ball, "So really the cost on the Collier side, is going to be, the
access. . . It is relatively minor in terms of the overall park facility.
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V. BOND BEACH PARK (continued) :
Mr. Mike D unbrowski, "Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Collier County
possibly looking at the possibility of providing a bath house or at least
restrooms at this park?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I don't know. I don't think we're going to provide restrooms
at that facility."
Mr. Mike Dombrowski, "I remember talking to Cliff, and he was saying that
possibly they were to have some. One of the things that this plan does, is that
it provides a bath house on the Lee County side, but that could be used by both
side, or whoever needs to use them."
Chairman Kobza, "Is there any board action. . ."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "No. I don't think that we need any board action. Like Mike
said, we're going to go over to the Transportation Department to make sure that
the entrance, and so forth is OK, and of course that has to go before the BCC."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "You're referring to just the entrances Murdo, not the overall
project?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Well, we want to take the overall project also to the board
just to show them what's been going on. I'm not sure if they are aware of
what's been going on with it."
Mr. Steve Ball, "How about when it comes time to approve the cost associated
with this? Would that information come back to us for review?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "It'll probably have to go to them for approval anyway, so
it'll probably have to go to you guys too.
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well that will give us a chance to look into it, and at least
investigate it."
Mr. Steve Ball, "I understand your concerns, but it seems to me that the overall
plan is a very good one, and Collier County is going to benefit a lot from it."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. Because what well have to bring back to you is the
interlocal agreement anyway."
Mr. Mike DuMbrowski, "By that time we should have pretty much, hard-line
drawings. One of the concerns that I have is that we are going to be going into
D&R within the next two two to three weeks. There's a minimum amount of change
in their eyes in terms of impervious surfaces and whatnot on the Collier County
side. With major renovations, to plan, but with the Collier County side your
only talking about three (3) or four (4) thousand square feet of material
change.
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Also, one of the big factors is the entrance. Since the BCC
has to approve the entrance that we have, I thought that I thought that it may
be a good time to let them know also what's going on up there since they haven't
seen it. I think Mike is looking on some direction also on the entrance. Once
he gets that direction, then we'll know more about the project cost, and so
forth, and what to proceed with the permitting on."
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V. BONITA BEACH PARK (continued) :
Chairman Kobza, "I think that's a great entrance idea. I'm very familiar with
that park, and I think that probably makes a lot of sense."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "As long as this will come back to us, and we will have the
opportunity to analyze it further, think about it further, and look into it a
little bit further, and advise the board, I think that will subside for the
moment. But, again, Collier County is recently on this posterity program, which
is long overdue, and I guess I'm just a little reluctant to become too
enthusiastic about investing more money into a park that is used in majority by
people from another county. Somehow, that incongruous in
my mind. But, I'd like to know more about it."
Chairman Kobza, "One thing I want to say to Gil, and I do live up in that area,
is that we utilize Ft. Myers beach in that area more than you might think. A
lot of the people from north Naples, with this kind of facility there, I think
would use it. I go up to Lely Barefoot or Ft. Myers even Vanderbilt's right
down the street. So, I think it'd be interesting to know what the user surveys
said, because that'll tell the story right there. That should give us a pretty
good grasp, on what those percentages are. But, I think we're going to get more
benefit out of this thank might initially be apparent. I guess we'll get
another shot at it. Especially with the beach access issue being so prevalent
and dominant in public conversation, we've got to do everything we can to
encourage beach access."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Would you like me to keep this on the action list?"
Chairman Kobza, "Yes. I don't know what the board's feeling on that."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Sure! At least we cant get a status on where it's at as it
goes through the process."
Mr. Mike Ihmbrowski, "Sure! I'd be more than happy to come here and update how
on what we're going through."
Chairman Kobza, "OK, so we'll put it on the Action List and review it, and if we
need to make decisions, you'll bring it back to us. Next item.
IV. ACTION LIST:
Chairman Kobza, "Next we're going to take the pool item from number five on the
action list."
5. POOLS:
Mr. Glen Bridges, "Murdo had wanted us to come today and give a short
presentation. It's kind of a history of some of the work that had been done in
the past months on the pool, which was Master Planned for this park site. So,
I'll just take a few minutes to go over some things, then we can look at some
drawings, and then we can generate some discussion. The pool is currently
funded for construction the next fiscal year, and the Parks & Recreation
thinking so far has been guided by the County Growth Management Plan and the
Golden Gate Park Master Plan. The Growth Management Plan, talks about an
Olympic Pool and what we had done to date is. . . The task was to determine how an
Olympic Pool would best be sited at Golden Gate Community Park. The preliminary
Page #13
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1/23/91
5. Pools (continued) :
layouts that we'll get in a minute show that the Olympic facility was planned to
include a 50 meter by 25 yard rectangular swimming pool. It would be about five
(5) feet deep. A 60 feet by 25 yard diving pool, which would be complete with
one (1) meter and three (3) meter spring boards, and then a ten (10) meter
diving tower. There would be a warm-up spa in the diving pool area, there would
be a wading pool, and there would be a bath house. Initially, planning showed
also room for an office space, locker rooms, and a snack bar. The direction
that we were given, talked about the primary uses of this facility would be for
recreational and instructional aquatics for all ages of the general public. But
it would be designed to the standards of same of the organizations that govern
swimming, diving type competitions (the High School, federations, and the NCAA,
and other national organizations) . Another assumption that was used was that
the pool facility would provide year round recreation. In other words, it would
be heated, and be used by the general public, but at I said it would provide the
capability of hosting local, state, or national meets in swimming, diving, water
polo, and synchronized swimming. So, we had done some research into the size
facility required to meet those requirements and the types of equipment that
would be required. What we looked at, we've got a Master Plan of the park site,
and we determined that for the pool facility itself, it would take about, a
little over a three (3) acre site as a minimum. Three acres, in terms of a
square, is about 360 feet by 360 feet. . . .So if you locate that on the park
site, you are talking about an area about the size of our existing baseball
field. In looking at the Master Plan, we selected the area just on the west
side of the soccer field where the existing children's play area is and
Northeast of the Administration building. So, that's the site that was selected
for our preliminary layout of this facility. The site is not generous, but we
felt that the separations that were provided between the soccer field, the
canal, the parking, and this building were minimal, but were adequate. This
also assumes that no new parking is really constructed as part of the pool
facility itself, but instead the existing parking and proposed parking would be
used for the facility, and then parking during peak hours possibly would be a
scheduling type control would help out there. Again, we've got two other boards
that show just a little bit larger scale of the facility showing: 50 meter
swimming pool, diving well, spa back behind the diving well, wading area, bath
house, entrance to the bath house, snack area, equipment room, the deck area
around the pool allows for some bleacher viewing area, and sidewalks. At this
level of detail, in talking with other agencies that have built this type of
facility, and in talking with the pool equipment suppliers, and all, our
estimate of constructing this type of facility would be from 2.6 to three (3)
million dollars. So, that would be constructing the entire facility, including
the diving well and all. The Parks & Recreation Department staff felt that this
was the first step of the planning of the pool facility. This kind of gets us
at a benchmark to go from, since this work was done, last year, there's been a
few contacts made with some other agencies, Parks Departments, who had built
pool facilities. Just in researching the literature, and the experience of the
park staff, there is a growing trend in public pool facilities towards something
other than a conventional swimming pool. Moving more towards a water park type
of facility where you would maybe put in a slide, or a fountain, or a something
called a zero depth pool. Which is kind of a wading pool as it starts out with
basically zero depth and goes dawn, so it provides a big beach area for people
to just splash around in. The benefits of those types of facilities is revenue
generation. Depending upon what you do, you can generate revenue by charging
admission that would cover maintenance costs, operating costs, that sort of
thing. So, I think in order to really take the next step in looking at that
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PARAB Meeting
1/23/91
5. Pools (continued) :
type of facility, if it's so desired to look at that type of facility, there's a
little bit more research to be done. We have been talking with some of the
other agencies, for example the city of Cape Coral Parks Department is planning
a water park facility. What they did is, hired a specialty consultant to do a
feasibility study, and looked at the demographics of the area, and projected
attendance, and looked at the types of water park facilities that would be
there, and arrived at an admission charge. They projected revenues and then
compared that to operating expenses. That area is sort of a specialty area, and
there are several consultants around the country that do that sort of thing.
They have database from having done that, that is useful. So, that's one thing
that would need to be talked about, if we want to pursue that avenue. You may
want to get in touch with one of those folks, and talk with them in a little
more detail about what's required to do that feasibility study. I guess, if it
is determined to do that, then the next step after that, would be to redo the
site plan if that changes any, do a preliminary design and get that approved,
and then move into final design, bidding, and construction. Like I said, I
think the facility is budgeted for construction this coming fiscal year. When
we were looking at some of the 50 Meter diving pool type equipment we got some
information from pool suppliers which show a cross section of the pool facility,
and it shows the diving tower, depths, and dimensions of the pool and all."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Like Glen said, the area that the swimming pool is in, is a
rather small area for that pool. However, the facilities and so forth will fit
in that area. If we do go to some type of zero depth, we'd want to try to keep
both the competition aspect and the zero depth aspect in there also."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Can you do that?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think we can. I've seen various pools where they have the
zero depth. Glen can show you. Coming out at the bottom of the swimming pool
there, right in that area there (display) and still have the lanes for swimming
going east to west and it should be OK. I don't know if you could ever get an
Olympic swimming team to swim in it, but for local competition, I think it can
be done. That may generate more revenue also. There again putting a slide in
somewhere might also generate revenue. I think maybe we should, before we put
those type of facilities in there, maybe get some type of revenue consultant to
give us an estimated cost on how much money we can make off of those facilities
in this area, before we spend the extra money to put those in there. It might
not be a bad idea."
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "Are you saying that these zero depth pools, if it's
feasible, will come into phase to build this big Olympia pool since we don't
have it the budget for '93 to build the swimming pool?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think the Olympic pool is in '92, I believe. But I know, it
was the next priority that the Parks and Rec. Advisory Board wanted to build
anyway. So, we were going to try to move it up one year, if I remember
correctly."
Chairman Kobza, "My previous notes were at 2.3 million, and now we're at 2.6 to
3 million dollars. Do you remember? When we had talked with Kevin about this
before, it was 2.3 million. Does the 2.6 to 3 million incorporate, for
instance, the enhancements, the slide, is that what's going in there? What's
going in there?"
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PARAB Meeting
1/23/91
5. Pools (continued) :
Mr. Glen Bridges, "That wouldn't include the slides. That would include the
Bath House, Diving Pool, towers and all."
Mr. Steve Ball, "The diving part of it wasn't in the original?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I always thought. . . Even in the minutes it was 2.6."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "It is 2.6. It says right here."
Chairman Kobza, "OK. I would like to have an understanding of the revenues.
Generating. The thinking behind those enhancements. The revenue portion of
this thing. A lot of municipalities went through, I don't want to say it. It
was a fad, or it was certainly a period of time where they'd get into golf
course development, and they'd be able to operate municipal courses at a profit.
So, they all went out and purchased Golf courses. Or many municipalities did
during the late 70's early 80's, and then after they got a few years into it,
they found out that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be, and there's a
difference between public administration, and private administration in that
type of resource. I want to make sure that as the demographics change over
time, in the area too, that we're not just building for today's demographics,
but tomorrow's demographics. It might be that we're saying 'OK! We'll generate
X amount of revenue today with these resources' , but does that assumption hold
true five (5) , ten (10) , or even (20) years from now as people age. Those are
just some questions that come to mind. I don't know the answers to those
questions, but I'd like to have an understanding of the thinking behind water
slides, and I really want to know that."
Mr. Steve Ball, "I'm interested in those activities that can generate revenue.
I'm also interest in the competition aspect. Of that facility and the benefits
of that as well. I'd hate to see it be and either/or. If we can have both it's
great!"
Chairman Kobza, "In other that you would rather see the competition. . ."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Personally, yes. Because you can go to the beach, and have a
lot of the play end of facilities."
Chairman Kobza, "Is there a place to move the facilities that are being
displaced?" Mr. Murdo Smith, "The only facility that we would displace would be
the children's play area, and it would be moved next to the community center in
some location."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Is this parking existing on the end of the Ball-fields?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "No!"
Mr. Steve Ball, So that is some potential additional parking area. Does this
facility get extremely crowded with parking?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes. When we have the baseball and softball going at night,
it is jam packed. Gwen, and I, and Gary, and everyone else has talked about the
parking problem that we'd have , if we put the swimming pool in there. It seems
like one of the solutions to the parking problem would be constructing a portion
or if not, that whole parking lot down at that other side there. Because
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5. Pools (continued) :
basically the softball and soccer, and people would all park down there, thus
relieving some of the congestion in this parking lot."
Mr. Steve Ball, "If this facility is full, where do people park now?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I've seen them up on the road up here. It's been so full in
here, they used to park all over the entrance grass, they used. Both isles have
been full out here, and they even park on this grassy area that we have out
here, and even that's been completely full during the summer months. Just at
night during the summer months, when you have little league going on, Babe Ruth,
and you also have Men's softball, and so forth going on."
Chairman Kobza, "How many additional spots would this type of pool facility
require? Theoretically, if we were using County standards?"
Mr. Glen Bridges, "If we were using county standards, it would require 336
spaces. That's based on, this area of pool, we have one space for 50 square
feet of pool. It turns out to 336."
Ms. Cherryle Thomas, "How many are you providing in this drawing?"
Mr. Glen Bridges, "When it is all constructed, it is about a total of 474."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Do you have an idea of what the deficiency overall would be for
the entire site."
Mr. Glen Bridges, "Well, it's kind of guess work, and how you want to play the
n Mbers type thing. The County has guidelines on certain of our facilities out
here, like the tennis courts, and racquetball courts are three (3) spaces per
court. Then there are things like the children's play area, picnic pavilion,
and all that. You just have to kind of take a stab at it. The best stab that
we've made, is if you counted up all of the facilities out here, and assuming
that they're fully used at the same time, you would need about 700 spaces.
Using kind of a reasonable guideline. So there's a deficiency there. But,
you're talking about at a peek time that really is not reasonable."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "A peek time that we may never achieve. That's where we feel
that that additional parking lot down to the eastern side of the park will
alleviate a lot of the congestion here once the pool facility is built."
Chairman Kobza, "Well, it seems to me that is an absolute requirement. I don't
see how you could build a facility and not build that parking lot."
Mr. Steve Ball, "As a mater of fact, you might have to even go through some type
of variance process, just to only build that amount."
Chairman Kobza, "You're really implementing a shared parking philosophy if you
do this."
Mr. Steve Ball, "It might be such that you can only effectively operate 3/4 of
the facilities at any given time. Which might be a reasonable thing to do as
well, and you probably don't have many occasions where more than that is under
operation."
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5. Pools (continued) :
Chairman Kobza, "But it's certainly a question. Looking at this, there's really
no room for expansion of those parking facilities either. Like, the canal is
the boundary on the one side."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Has any consideration been given to removing any of the
facilities such as one of the softball fields?"
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Putting it elsewhere, you mean?"
Mr. Steve Ball, "Yes. Seeing how we have more than one softball field, it is
potential to remove one of them and replace it with the pool facility thereby
increasing the amount of area for parking."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Would it be possible at some future date perhaps for us to go
out and walk this? To see exactly what we're talking about? I'm having a
difficult time visualizing it from that sketch. Wouldn't that type of exposure
benefit us? Could we do that Murdo?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "We could go out there now, if you want to go out real quick."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I think we have a time problem here. Kim said something
about having to leave, and Steve did too, and I know there are other important
things on the agenda. Unless the board doesn't think that's necessary. I
personally would like to do it."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "If you don't have anywhere to go afterwards Gil, you and I
could walk out there and I could show you the spot."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "We might come up with some suggestions to you or some ideas as
to how this could be juggled around."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Maybe we should just do it on our own."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I would like Murdo to accompany us, so that he can tell
us where we're. . . Could we do it at a later date?"
Chairman Kobza, "One thing on Steve's comment. If we were forced into a
position where we had to remove something. You could be forced into that
position. You could go ahead and construct the facility, and find out it's very
popular, and then you've got the parking problem, and then you're going to have
to deal with it."
Mr. Steve Ball, "The benefit of a facility like this, talking about the control,
it is all regulated by the county, so you can regulate the use, and try to
coordinate the uses at different times and hopefully that would be sufficient
for the parking problem."
(jokingly) Chairman Kobza, "We'll have picketing by the softball players and the
pool people at the same time."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Well, if you're going to play softball, you'll have to ride
with somebody that swims."
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5. Pools (continued) :
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think that once that other parking lot to the east is built,
and a lot of the softball players and that come in one car. The people that go
to the swimming pool, is basically come in 4-5 people to a car. It is you
bathing load. It is family oriented and so forth. I think that parking we have
here now will probably be sufficient for that unless it is at a high use time."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Historically, the parking standards are inaccurate for use,
with probably some exceptions of some commercial facilities. But, it might be
such that we could have a facility built and closely monitor it. Then if it
does become a problem, consider something that will change it."
Chairman Kobza, "I guess the question today then, is, should we be in a position
of asking either the County Manager's office or the BCC or someone to move
forward with the. . . Somehow we have to get into the revenue generating
question."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think that something we should do, is possibly get Wilson
Miller to get some type of a revenue consultant to see if it's feasible to put
this revenue enhancement stuff in here like the slide, or the zero depth pool,
and so forth, to see if it's cost effective and go from that standpoint."
Chairman Kobza, "Or maybe just saying it a different way. To advise us on the
feasibility of different alternatives and that we're not predisposed to one or
the other. Tom Oliff did at one point, there is a predisposition within the
county right now, to use our own resources where possible. I understand what
you're suggesting to us Glen, in terms of a consultant. But, I at least think
that we should probably give the Manager's office a chance to make suggestions
to us before we forge into recommending that to the County Board."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Yes. It might be something that the. . . You mentioned that
you've been in contact with other communities, and getting some figures might be
as easy as that. Getting in touch with them, getting figures from what kind of
revenue they've generated, and how, and taking a close look at that."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, in your conversation with Tom Oliff, you say he
suggested that."
Chairman Kobza, "That was a little different situation, but basically, yes he
did."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, I think that's what we should do."
Chairman Kobza, "I think what we probably ought to do, is ask the County
Manager's office for guidance in the selection of a consultant with respect to
the revenue issues. What else should we put in there? We believe at this time,
that the revenue issues should be addressed to allow the full planning process
to go forward. And therefore, based upon that we would like to ask the County
Manager's office to provide us guidance with respect to either outside selection
of a consultant or in house resources that would be utilized for that type of
consulting. How's that?"
Mr. Steve Ball, ". . .and for various alternatives to fund the facilities, and for
various types of amenities in the facilities"
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5. Pools (continued) :
Chairman Kobza, "Right! To analyze the feasibility of different alternative
approaches to construction, including the possible addition of revenue
enhancement amenities."
Mr. Gil Mueller, I think you put that nicely, and I can't remember exactly what
you've said, but if it's in the form of a motion let's. . ."
Chairman Kobza, "Well, let me entertain a motion along those lines. and I'll
restate the motion, if I can do it."
Mr. Gil Mueller motioned that we make those recommendation along those lines
that you (Mr. Kim Kobza) specified just a moment ago, which you better repeat.
Mr. Steve Ball seconded.
Mr. Kim Kobza, the motion is that we request guidance from the County Manager's
office with respect to the utilization of either in house resources or perhaps
an outside consultant for the purpose of providing us with recommendations and
analysis on the feasibility of construction of different alternatives to the
Olympic Pool including specifically an analysis of the revenue generating
amennities as possible additions to the pool.
Mr. Steve Ball, "I think that maybe one of those design alternatives should be
for a competitive type of facility. One of the alternatives I think that we are
interest in, is to have a facility that we could use for competition."
Mr. Kim Kobza, "And also including and analysis of a design alternative which
incorporates competition type features to the pool."
Mr. Glen Bridges can give us the name of some people they've talked to. A
consultant that did the work for Cape Coral. It was a $20,000.00 study that he
did for Cape Coral.
Mr. Kim Kobza, "Perhaps, what we could do is to have together with our request,
a brief memo from Mr. Glen Bridges on which kind of summarizes on what's
happened to date, what you think needs to happen next, and the possibility of
outside consultants, and what they're cost would be and the County Manager can
review that or the Assistant County Manger and provide us with some direction.
I think I'd encourage him to consult with you on the need for an outside
consultant versus in house. The motion passed unanimously, with a 4-0 vote.
4. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING:
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I have one other gentleman who's been here the whole time, I
don't know if you want to go into that now. But, Mr. Ed Ewing from Ewing
Industries. I know that sometime ago we have been asked to get a demonstration
of parking. . . So Bob contacted Ed, and we got him at this meeting to go over
this, a guess it's a parking meter basically."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "This is relative to the 951 Boat Ramp?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yes, It would be relative to the 951."
Chairman Kobza, "Let's move item number four up then."
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4. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING (continued) :
Mr. Murdo Smith, "If you want to discuss the 951 in conjunction with this, or go
through first, and discuss that later?"
Chairman Kobza, "Why don't we have the demonstration. This is item number four,
for purposes of discussion today, the 951 Boat Ramp."
Mr. Edward Ewing, "Ladies and Gentleman, I'm Ed Ewing, I do represent
Schlumberger here in the State of Florida, and Schlumberger is a six (6) billion
conglomerate. Our U.S. Service office for parking and transit systems is in
Chesapeake, VA. What we have here is a machine, and if you all would like to
come out and give it a little closer look, you might get a little bit more out
of it. This is a very sophisticated electronic computerized money grabber.
It's a multistrength machine as compared to the individual parking meter spaces.
I sold parking meters for 6 years, so I know a little bit about those. This has
it's applications especially in lots and in garages where you have an area that
you particularly don't want to gum up with a little tomb stone, this is what I
call parking meters now. Basically, there is two types of machine, this is the
Park Master IV and it's the latest generation. It is a display or a numbers
space unit, which in other words, if you have a parking lot you either have the
numbers of the spaces on the pavement, or on a sign, or curb stop, or wherever
it is convenient. It will vary from lot to lot. The other thing, it does not
have the keyboard. That's the Park Master III. That is one where you drive in,
and get your ticket and you'd have to go back to your car and put it on the
windshield, which is fairly inconvenient. So we're selling more of these, than
the Park Master III. There is 20,000 of these over in Europe of the
Schlumberger Park Masters. In Florida, I have 4 over in Pompano, 3 in
Beachloft, 1 in Bograham. I have 2 in a parking garage in Ft. Lauderdale, and
they just ordered and additional 10 for that particular garage. We have four in
Sarasota, and they are supposed to be buying 5 more. We are very much in touch
with Lee County, and they are generating a lot of revenue up in Lynn Hall Park,
downtown Ft. Myers Beach, and they are going to possibly take the meters out of
there, put in them in some smaller beach access lots where this would be
economically feasible, and they are alto talking about Bowman Park and Carl
Johnson Park. Were going to pretend that we're in space number 520. It tells
you right here your space number is 520, and of course it has the time you're
putting the money in. This shows you paid a quarter, and the date is 1/23/91,
and you just silly press the green button. If you want to put in 2 quarters,
nickels, dimes, it will take anything. It will will you the space number, how
much money I put in, it will then show the date, and the time you put the money
in, and the time it will expire. So if somebody goes to the beach, and they
say, "Oh! Gee! How much time do I have on the meter?", now with parking meters
they won't be able to tell. With this (receipt) in their possession, it will
tell what time I'm going to have to go back. Now, the other thing, that is
possible, is you'll see on the literature that I gave you can use a bill
acceptor. It will accept one's, five's, ten's, or twenty's. Whatever you want.
Also, you have a card, which is a debit card that you can sell, and that will
give you twenty five dollars or fifty dollars. I left some of those laying
around. They are fifty dollars. OK, here we're going to go with 563. Again,
the space number is 563, put the card in with the arrow up, and the blue button
will let you buy as many units of time as you desire. In other words, if you
just want an hour. Press it once. If you want 2, you press it twice. It keeps
track, and shows you the balance you have left on your card. In this case it's
$45.25. Push it a third time, and we're down another quarter, and we've bought
three hours. On this particular machine, the fourth push won't allow you more
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4. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING (continued) :
parking, so it will automatically issue you a receipt. You have to pull the
card out first, this prevents you from accidentally leaving it in there, because
the receipt will not print until the card is pulled out. This (receipt) will
show $1.00, and it will show four hours, through the line. Enforcement."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Mr. Ewing, a couple of questions. You say this will only
allow you to park four hours?"
Mr. Edward Ewing, "No. That is all to what you want to program. You can
program it to twenty four hours if you want, 7 days a week. It's very easy to
do, it could all be programmed. In other words, with parking meters as an
example. In know, in St. Petersburg, where I live, they changed rates four or
five years ago. This cost them $18,000.00 plus hundreds of man hours of time to
change the mechanisms and coin slots and all that in meters, to accoimuodate the
new time. With this, if you want to say charge $.50 an hour, and all of a
sudden you say, "Hey! That isn't enough!" you want to charge $.75 or a $1.00,
your personnel will come done, press a few buttons, and you have your rate
change automatically."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "What is your experience with vandalism on these things?"
Mr. Edward Ewing, "Very, very good."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Can they be insured?"
Mr. Edward Ewing, "Well, Sarasota asked that. They wanted vandalism and junk.
I said sure, and we went back to Schlumberger and they said, "Yes. For $1,000 a
year for a unit, if you want it, we don't feel it's necessary". This is nine
(9) gauge steel. I will show you here in a minute. Nobody has ever got a penny
out of this. Now, over in Europe the Spanish Revolutionaries decided there must
be a lot of money in that machine and they took plastic explosives, put it in
here, and they sort of wiped out all of the software inside. But they still
didn't get any of the money. There's an inner safe, again with nine (9) gauge
steel inside and there's a big plate here, where you collect the money. I'd
like to go into it a lot more, but I know you're in a hurry, so I'll just try to
hit some of the high points here. You say, "How do you enforce it?". If
there's only a few in the lot, you do it one way, if the lot's almost full, you
do it the reverse. The enforcement people press the star and a code number,
which we're using the year here, and it'll say "paid spaces" or "unpaid". OK,
I'm going to select paid, because we don't have many people in there. It will
say, "beginning space number". This particular machine starts from 5 to 700,
and then it will give you a printout rather showing who has paid and how much
time they have remaining. This is beginning number 500. Now, 520 has paid,
he's got 56 minutes left, 526 has an hour and nine minutes left, 563 had three
hours and seven minutes left. If anybody is in any space except those three,
they get a ticket just like a violation of the parking meter. So, it's enforced
very similar to a parking meter, except they don't have to go around every meter
to enforce. They do it right from the printout. When I was putting this on,
I accidentally dropped one of the bolts, and it went right into the money slot.
So jammed this release by doing that, and am going to have to turn it almost
upside-down to get it out. But, I can show you basically the collection
procedure. This is a full proof system. This key goes up in here, you turn it,
and push down on this handle, pull it out, and that will release the money into
this container. So, as that is done, and this
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4. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING (continued) :
is pulled out, it automatically locks and there's only one pull allowed per
collection. In other words, there's a lock on here that the finance office or
the bank, whoever count the money, has to open up with a key that the collecting
person doesn't have and they count the money, and they give it one more pull for
them for the next collection. So, nobody can tough the money, unless they run
off with the whole canister. But, other than that, there's no way they can do
it. So, you have a full proof collection system. I'll just open this up
briefly to show you. This is all nine gauge steel, it's all computer welded,
and the locks if you notice, there's a piece that comes down. Of course they
can break into parking meters. Nobody has ever got a nickel out of a Park
Master. I thought a lot more people would try, but of all the installations I
have done so far, nobody has even tried."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "You say, this comes equipped with a bill changer, or is that
an accessory or what?"
Mr. Edward Ewing, "Not a changer. It's an accessory. Not a bill changer, but
rather a bill acceptor. In other words, if you put a dollar in, you are not
going to get any change. You will get a dollar's worth of parking, yes. That
is an add on. It's a bigger cabinet of course to accommodate that. But very
frankly, the bill acceptor is nice to have a higher rate. There going to
provide airports now in places where the rate is real high. Their coming out
now, with one that will accept "Visa" and "Mastercharge". It isn't economically
feasible to do that."
Chairman Kobza, "You had to put your parking spot number in. Now, when you're
going to a park though, you don't know what spot you are going to park in."
Mr. Edward Ewing, "No. You look at your space number after you park your car.
Then you walk to the machine, put your money in. You know your space number
then, after you park. He has to go in and actually park at a space before so he
knows what n Mber to put in here. That's on a big sign as you come in.
"Remember you Space number, pay at any machine first." If you have 2 or 3 of
these machines, they all interconnect. If you were, Let's say there's a long
beach, and if you were to have your initial deposit in this particular machine,
and then let's say you walked up the beach and ran into somebody and got to
talking and said, "Oh may heavens! My time is about up!" If there was a
machine, let's say 200 feet closer, they could just simply go to that other
machine an add time, because it's all interconnected and it would add that time
to that particular person's space number. Another big advantage is the amount
of maintenance that's cut way down on parking meters and collection times. If
you've got 100 parking meters, it's going to take you usually 45 minutes to an
hour at least, to collect. If you've got fast, efficient employees, if you goof
off on the job a little, it's going to take you an hour and a half. Here, a
minute or less."
Chairman Kobza, "How long has the ones been in Pompano Beach?"
Mr. Edward Ewing, "About three and a half years, I would say."
Chairman Kobza, "And the one at the boat ramp?"
Mr. Edward Ewing, "That one's been there probably two and a half years. You
see, they had three in the big lot to start. That's a block from the beach,
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4. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING (continued) :
it's used as a county parking lot."
Chairman Kobza, "Have you provided Murdo with the names of people that we could
contact that are responsible for maintenance and also collection, and
enforcement, and all those types of. . ."
Mr. Edward Ewing, "Yes. Did I leave that with you last time Murdo?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "OK, I hope I have got it with me here."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Mr. Ewing, I'm a little afraid to ask this question. How
much?"
Mr. Edward Ewing, "Not bad! The basic machine and this is with one full year
warranty where you have no expense whatsoever. That includes Schlumberger
flying one of those technicians in, if your people. . . See, they will train when
they install it. See they install it there is a big service manual, plus they
will train for two to three days, whatever it takes, to get your people
qualified. It's all modular. It's mainly a matter of pulling one out, and you
have spare parts to start, and you take one out, put the other one in. It
doesn't happen often, but when it does, you call your 800 number and they've got
a replacement for that part that just went off the shelf, to you overnight
federal express. So you're never in a lurch. Like I say if it's something that
your man can't figure out, or your lady that's doing the collection or the
maintenance or whatever. Then they will put that man on the plane in and down
here. Pompano, very frankly, with our Park Masters II's, when we first had them
in, we had some problems. They weren't continuous problems, but they were
enough that it wasn't comfortable. What Schlunberger did, at the time, they
were coming out with Park Master IV, their warranty was already up on the two,
but they were still taken care of regardless. They said, look, rather than try
to cure the computer glitch that we have here on the machines, they gave them
all brand new ones with brand new warranties."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "How much did you say that machine was?"
Mr. Edward Ewing, "This basic machine without the card reader or the bill
acceptor is between 9 and 10 thousand. The card reader is $2500 approximately,
and the reason I say that, is they just come out with a new price sheet that I
still haven't got. But, thesP are very close, and it depends, to bid, then we
don't right down and tell you exact dollars. The bill acceptor is the most
expensive of the auxiliary pieces, is about $5600. But, you are talking a quick
return on them, if they're going for a facility that you are now not generating
money. More facilities and counties are going to have to come to it, because of
budget crunches and the shortages in the state. They are all cutting back, and
that's why I say, that actually with this unit, recession doesn't necessarily
hurt it. Sometimes it helps it. Because cities and counties have to get their
revenue. A user fee, of course is a pretty fair way of paying for things.
Chairman Kobza, "OK. Do you want to continue that discussion Murdo? Do you
have anything to add to that at all?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Bob had done a preliminary review of some fees that we could
generate at 951. We came up with basically four types of way that we could
generate money at 951 boat ramp. One way, staffing the parking lot full time,
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4. 951 BEAT RAMP PARKING (continued) :
and we didn't think that was a very economic way, because I don't think we could
gain any money in return. One was going with parking meters. The other one was
staffing part time, just a couple of hours on peek days. Basically, weekends.
Bob can go into some of these if you'd like some detail into it. How he came
about his figures and so forth. Since he's here, we might as well have him
speak."
Mr. Bob Legler, "It seemed to me, that the hest way was with the part-time
staffing. I could use attendants from Tigertail for two or three hours, and
only on busy days. If the whether turns bad, we could say, just don't go down
that day. That would be the most profitable. The problem would be, the county
insists that we issue cash register receipts."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "The only electricity, Gil, that we have at 951, is for those
security lights. We'd have to ask FPL to get some electric."
Mr. Bob Legler, "You'd have to have the guy carry the cash register down, set
the table up to set the cash register on. It would be a little bit of a problem
on who would be working that day, so they could switch this equipment back and
forth. It could be done."
Chairman Kobza, "How about this type of system?"
Mr. Bob Legler, "I think it's a great system, but not for there. Because they
wouldn't park. . . There's only sixteen parking spaces. When those 16 spaces are
full, they park on the road. So if they're going to have to pay, they won't
park in the spaces, they'll park on the road."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Well, of course, now we are into an area of law enforcement.
They shouldn't be allowed to park on the road. I went by there two hours ago,
and you've got to slow down because they're parked on the road. Sometimes one
wheel on the road."
Mr. Bob Legler, "Gil, I don't know if you'd want to limit that to just sixteen
boats being able to launch there."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Is there more property there Murdo?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "No. Not that I know of Gil."
Mr. Bob Legler, "Same as Bayview, they're up and down the streets, because there
are so many people that want to use the boating facility."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "There's no more property there?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Not that I'm aware of. I know at one time we had requested
the. ."
Mr. Steve Ball, "It's all wetland there for Seagulls."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "Yeah. I think just going to the south they said that you
couldn't use that, because they were four lane."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "The County doesn't own anymore property there?"
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Coo 4. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING (continued) :
Mr. Murdo Smith, "No."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "You know, that is going to be a real problem someday. I'm
thinking when the Marco Shores thing and the Lely Development goes on stream,
that boat ramp is going to be probably the most popular boat ramp in the
county. Maybe we're premature on this, I don't know, but, I think it's well
worth talking about it at least."
Mr. Bob Legler, "We're wondering about that Coast Guard Station there, and have
been wondering it that could be used."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "What we used to have done there at the Coast Guard is, we used
to have a little bait shop that was out in the water there. I don't know if you
remember Mr. Schiller who ran the operation down there. It's a floating barge,
with a bait shop. Maybe we can go ahead and put another concession there again.
I can't remember exactly Gil, how much money he made, but he did give some money
back to the county. I can't remember if it was 10% of his gross or 5 or
whatever it was, but he did generate some revenue to the county. It may be
another alternative that you could look at versus putting the parking meters in
that space there, or some other type of launch fee. This way we get the people
when they go out into the pass there if they wanted to stop and buy bait or
something you could do it there."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "How about one of these things that you. . . For example, the
gate goes up, and you put your money in. It's a singular unit. As opposed to
parking meters. Is that at all feasible? I think, there would be a lot of
vandalism to that. Because I think that they would just back into it."
Mr. Bob Legler, "Then again, I just don't think there is that many people using
it right now."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "When I go by there Bob, there's usually 15 to 25 cars on a
weekend, when I went by there earlier Wednesday, during season, there was 17
cars."
Mr. Bob Legler, "Then there's a lot of days without any cars."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Off Season. But we don't plan on putting anybody there off
season. I don't think there is any question that it wouldn't be rational to put
somebody there during the off season months."
Mr. Bob Legler, "That's my thought, because most of them are there early in the
day and daybreak. By 8:00 a.m. or 9:00 a.m. , it's full."
Mr. Steve Ball, "Another thing to consider, is there's only 16 or 20 parking
spaces. How much income is that going to generate?"
Mr. Bob Legler, "On busy days, I've counted up to 30, with the ones that park
on the street. That's $2.00 a car. That's $60.00. You have to pay a man at
■
least $25 to $30 in benefits, we have to give him mileage."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "What I'd like to do Gil, is maybe check into the feasibility
into getting some type of concession back down there again at the Coast Guard
site. Maybe we could put out RFP's for someone, for a proposal and see if
Page #26
PARAB Meeting
1/23/91
4. 951 BOAT RAMP PARKING (continued) :
anyone is interested, and that might do away with having to put the parking
meters. Because if people don't park at the parking meters, then the Sheriff's
Dept. will have to go and ticket the people, and I don't know how feasible that
would be."
Mr. Steve Ball, "It might even make it worse than what it is."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "And, like Steve said, there's 16 spaces there."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "There's not a lot of money, is there?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "No. If we could come up with another way Gil, to generate the
same amount of money that we're expecting to get with the parking meters, we
could. . . I think what we should do is look at an alternative way that maybe we
could come up with some additional revenue to bring back to you and let you look
at. That's my suggestion, because I think number the number five on there would
be a good thought, and I think there may be some interest in that again. I know
there hasn't been interest in it for awhile, but we can try it and see. We can
always report back to you how it is going."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "I think it is something we should be discussing. There is no
immediate action necessary, but I think it's a possibility, and I think there
are other places where revenue might be acquired throughout various sites in the
county too."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "What I'll do is, get with Bob and Gary, and get with
Purchasing and have them put out a Request For Proposal (RFP) for a concession
in that area, and then we can bring it back to you to see what type of response
and so forth we have, and give it a shot."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "Do you think that Marco River Marina would be interested in
doing something like that, in as much as they already have a concession at
Caxambas?"
Mr. Murdo Smith, "They may. Like in the past, Mr. Schiller was there, and he
did a good little business. I wasn't a lot of money, but I'm sure that he
generated similar to what we could get off of parking meters there."
Mr. Gil Mueller, "OK. Well, as I had said, the idea may have been premature,
but I think that once Lely and Marco Shores start to fill up, it will be an
absolute must."
Mr. Murdo Smith, "I think it was a good idea, and if you have any other ideas as
far as that goes, please let us know. We're always receptive to them, and we
will see what we can do about it."
Page #27
PARAB Minutes (long version)
1/23/91
1. RECYCLING:
(lost tape, minutes from notes)
Ten to two weeks for bids. Bob Legler met with Gary Franco. We will have bids
for 50 containers. Gary Franco will help with planning the placement areas
within the parks. Bob Legler said that he had no information on recycling
bottles and plastics. No action required.
2. TIGERTAIL VEGETATION:
Murdo Smith talked to Harry Huber about the Sea Turtle protection plan. Harry
already has it complete and will sent it to St. Pete as soon as possible for
review. Hopefully bi the end of this week. Mike Joity could not go down there
this week. Vegetation Planting and Maintenance approval plans to go before the
BCC to assure the state of compliance. No sea turtles were on the beach this
year. We are planning on doing this <>. Basically it will be up to the state
on which way we can do it. Murdo does not think that the environmental
extreemists will deter it. No action required.
3. IMMOKALEE AIRPORT PARK BATHROOMS:
Murdo Smith presented the plans. There were some conserns on septic tanks.
That is the limit on the time to put on the bid? <> All new facilities. the
design is complete and bids are at the Purchasing Department for this project.
No action required.
6. VANDERBILT BEACH ACCESSES AND PARKING:
There is not an acess there <>. Transportation will try to pursue the access
issue. We've been authorized to put some bicycle accesses at the five beach
accesses. The Utility and Transportation Departments are doing an improvement
and repaving in that area.
7. NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS:
Mr. Steve Ball requested that this subject be taken off the Action List until we
come up with a work on the plan for future sites etc. Closely look at the
levels of services.
8. COMMUNITY CENTERS:
will be on the BCC Agends for the 5th of February for approval until Bluebill
property is sold. We have to get the items to the public Services
Administration in one week in advance in order for them to be put on the BCC
Agenda. Chairman Kobza will attend the meeting.
9. FOOTBALL/SOCCER FIELD Ilv1MOKALEE:
Wilson, Miller, Barton and Peek has received the references from Kelly & Bowden,
and were approved. County signs and will proceed in mid February.
10. DIVISION RESPONSIBILITIES FOR 1991:
Chairman Kobza commented that all five PARAB members need to be present for this
discussion to take place. Chairman Kobza updated Cherryle Thomas on past
discussion of this subject from the joint City/County meeting. No action
required.
Page #28
PARAB Minutes (long version)
1/23/91
11. LISTING OF DONATED PROPERTIES:
Murdo Smith commented that the list is not available yet from Real Property.
Hopefully it will be available by the next regular PARAB meeting. Chairman
Kobza explained that we are gathering this information for the whole area of
this County. We will not get the list until Real Property is completly
finished.
NOTE: Chairman Kobza suggested to have classification of items on the Action
list. For example: Presentations first, Items needing board action next, and
then updated last. Chairman Kobza suggested to make ours similar to the BCC
consent agenda. Murdo Smith then suggested to put presentation under the
heading of "Old Business" on the AGENDA. Chairman Kobza will work with Murdo
on the Agenda and Action list format for the next meeting.
FRANK E. MACKLE JR. COMMUNITY PARK EXPANSION:
The contractor has the contracts and will have them back to us by Friday and
will hopefully have some activities going on by February. Murdo Smith explained
the process determined if he has the contract in order.
TIGERTAIL FOOD CX)NC'I'SSION:
When will they open up? We have gone ovber their proposal. He's with his
attorney for review and will then come back to us. Hopefully they'll open bi
the end of February.
RECREATIONAL FACILITIES OF AMERICA:
PARAB asked when this will be presented to the BCC? Murdo commented that the
executive summary is completed, and it is Scheduled for the 5th of February for
the BCC Agenda.
VI. ADJOURNMENT:
Mr. Steve Ball motioned to adjorn the meeting at 4:00 p.m. Mr. Gil Mueller
seconded, and the motion passed unanimously.
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