Minutes 10/24/1990 MINUTES
PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office
October 24, 1990
PRESENT: Mr. Kim Kobza, Chairman
Mr. Steve Ball, Vice Chairman (arrived at 1:35 p.m.)
Mr. Gil Mueller (arrived at 1:50 p.m.)
Mr. Kevin O'Donnell
Mr. Cliff Crawford
Mr. Murdo Smith
ABSENT: Ms. Cherryle Thomas
Ms. Geneva Till
VISITORS: Mr. Kingsley Fink, President of the Golden Gate Little League
Mr. Ron Pergl, of Forsythe Architects
Mr. Bob Legler, Beach & Water Supervisor of Parks & Recreation Department
Ms. Mary Ellen Donner, Recreation Superintendent of Parks & Recreation Department
Ms. Nina Ribinski, President of the Greater Naples Babe Ruth League
Mr. Jack O'Brien, of the Marco Island Eagle Newspaper
Ms. Linda Lorusso, Girls' Program Vise President of the Golden Gate Little League
Reporter, of the Naples Daily News
I. CALL TO ORDER
The meeting was called to order at 1:50 p.m.
II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Mr. Steve Ball motioned to approve the minutes of the 10/24/90 meeting. Mr. Gil Mueller seconded, the motion
passed unanimously with a 3-0 vote.
V. FACILITY USER FEE POLICY CHANGE:
VI. ATHLETIC USER FEE POLICY CHANGE:
Mr. Kevin O'Donnell updated PARAB. The Recreation Programs are costing the County from a net income vs. net
expenditure, $34,000. In order to keep the six job postions that were going to be cut, Mr. Kevin O'Donnell
traded off some other positions within the division, and had also recommended that the fees be increased. The
Recreation and Athletic Programs facility use rentals would pay for themselves, not requiring an Ad valorem
subsidy. It is being requested that any particular group that requires the use of a facility be required to pay
a user fee. Local non-profit athletic organizations were at this meeting to express their viewpoint against such
a thing. The floor was opened for Public Discussion, and there were four speakers. If these fees are not
imposed, the viewpoint was that Parks & Recreation would be having some problems. The reason for this, is that
the budget was predicated on these revenues coming up, because that was part of the package that the Board had
adopted. It was suggested to persue other areas to generate revenue. It was also suggested to have the Adults
pay the extra $5.00 fee. Parks & Recreation is currently offering 192 programs, and the Adult programs are our
major source of revenue. Mr. Kim Kobza expressed his viewpoint that this will be an increasing problem,
especially with the Community Centers comming on line. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell stated that the bottom tine is that
Recreational programs are going to have to be self-supporting. That means an additional $34,000 worth of
additional revenue to come up with. Obviously that means fee increases. Mr. Gil Mueller suggested to charge for
parking at the Caxambass and/or 951 boat ramps. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell stated that his budget is $34,000 out of
balance right now, if these revenues are not generated. Mr. Steve Ball motioned to table the discussion until
the 13th of November and to convene in a session after the joint meeting with the City. Mr. Gil Mueller
seconded this motion, and the motion passed unanimously with a 3-0 vote.
IV. ACTION LIST:
1. FRANK E. MACKLE JR. PARK COMMUNITY CENTER EXPANSION
Projected time table for the expansion is: Design, four weeks - to the County Attorney's office and to send
out for bid, two to three months. Forsythe Architects will do the design work and will be done
approximately on 12/1/90. Wilson, Miller, Barton & Peek will do the engineering. It will probably be the
middle of February, 1991 before we can start building. Further discussion entailed how this will impact the
programs. Basically this means that the building will be done sometime in June or August. Mr. Gil Mueller
expressed his disappointment in the slow time table. PARAB expressed their desire to expedite this time
table to complete the expansion as soon as possible.
2. DUNE RESTORATION GRANT
Nothing new to report.
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Page #2
PARAB--Regular Meeting
10/24/90
3. VANDERBILT BEACH ACCESS
The requested information on the cost of the design for the Beach Access Plans Mr. Murdo Smith had at the
last meeting was not available for discussion yet. Nothing new to report.
4. PLASTICS ON THE BEACHES
Mr. Kim Kobza requested to retitle this subject as "Recycling Program". Mr. Bob Legler updated as to what
has been happening at Tigertail Beach. So far the two experimental trash containers to recycle aluminum
have not been stolen. They are being used and are pretty close to full every weekday, are full on weekends.
Mr. Bob Legler is waiting to hear from Mr. Keeth Kipp, Solid Waste Department, to discuss the plan to
implement the program. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell said that we will give PARAB an indepth report at the next
regular meeting.
5. CONKLIN POINT FINAL PLANS
Mr. Kevin O'Donnell stated that the next BCC Agenda (Tuesday, October 30th.) will include the Proposal that
the Coast Guard has made to be able to use the second building. We're looking at having a $2.00 boat
launching fee. One of the buildings is already in existence and based on the report that we have, it seems
like a good idea to rehabilitate it. Plans are to put a meeting room in, some partitions (for division of
classes, etc.), a small concession booth operation (to sell fish, tackle, bait, etc.), a couple of offices,
restroom facilities, an open deck area, and a flag pole at this site. The Coast Guard needed about 1200
square feet, a large meeting room facility to hold an office, a large meeting room, a radio room, some
storage, kitchen facility. They run a lot of classes at night. The BCC will vote if they want them on the
property. The Coast Guard likes the drawing, and have indicated that they have about $20,000 to commit to
this project, and also a nominal rent to help contribute to the cost of upkeep of the building (about $1-10
a year). They would pay the operational expenses associated with this building, i.e. water, electric,
sewer. They would also do some general policing to keep the grounds clean, Parks & Rec. would do the
heavier maintenance on the site. Mr. Kim Kobza questioned if there will be a ground lease, and if some of
the area Civic Associations will have use of the facility. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell indicated that wouldn't be a
problem, however he wants to discourage night-time use of the facility. We're working on a provisional use
permit and then will apply to the State for the necessary permits. This park will be open, we're hoping by
October, 1991.
6. TIGERTAIL VEGETATION PERMIT
Mr. Cliff Crawford informed that we have received a reply back from the State Department of Natural
Resources, Tony McNeil. They raised a number of concerns regarding the proposal recommended by the Board of
County Commissioner. These concerns were basically indicating that it is a rather extensive project, and
are not recommending favorably on that scope of the project, and also had indicated that they would be
receptive to an alternative plan going to the frontal Dune Restoration Line assuming that the County would
do some mitigation and extend the exiting crossovers at Tigertail Beach. Subsequent to receiving this
information, we have been in contact with Mr. Harry Huber who has assisted us in the application
preparation. We are working toward meeting with Mr. McNeil to look at our options. Mr. Kevin O'Donnell
stated that we are looking at our appeal opportunities, to pursue our original goal. The State wants to see
the crossovers and increased native vegetation plantings before they will give any recommendation. Also, at
this point in time, their position is that they want to permit it all at once, and we will have a year to
get everything completed.
7. REGIONAL SPORTS PARK:
The Assistant County Manager and other staff went to Tallahassee. It appears that the DRI timetable process
can be met, providing that Baltimore Oriels will provide the appropriate information in a timely manner
within the next several weeks. The Regional Sports Facility still represents approximately 50 acres as far
as the public facility goes. Negotiation with the Baltimore Oriels is continuing, and we're meeting on a
weekly or biweekly basis. If it cannot be completed by 1993, then that will end the negotiations with
Baltimore on that particulare site. All the county agencies are working actively.
8. IMMOKALEE COMMUNITY PARK BATHROOM FACILITIES:
Deferred to the next regular PARAB meeting, 11/28/90.
9. BEACH USAGE REPORT:
Mr. Bob Legler explained the report requested by PARAB at the last meeting. Lately we've been getting calls
from the public that would like us to open up the beach access; a couple of years ago, it was the other way
around. PARAB wants to review this information, before discussing it further.
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PARAB--Regular Meeting
10/24/90
10. ANNUAL JOINT CITY-COUNTY ADVISORY BOARD MEETING:
Some subjects that were suggested for discussion at this meeting were: 1. Professional Baseball 2. Joint
Co-op efforts on programming 3. Impact fees 4. Joint use agreements 5. Recycling Program. Mr. Kim
Kobza suggested that all five PARAB Members should definitely be there, since all of their members were
there for last years joint meeting.
11. NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS:
Mr. Kevin O'Donnell stated that the county is fazing out the neighborhood park process. We don't have the
operating funds to maintain them, and we are putting our time and energy into the two new fields at the
Vineyards. Right now, the department does not have enough man power and equipment to maintain it.
12. Pools:
Deferred to the next regular PARAB meeting, 11/28/90.
NOTE: Mr. Steve Ball suggested that we check on the Catamaran issue for the next regular meeting.
NOTE: At the North Naples Community Park Baseball field opening there will be the Color Guard, Boston Red Sox, a
ceremony, refreshments, and Commissioner Volpe.
VII. ADJOURNMENT:
Mr. Steve Ball motioned to adjourn the meeting at 4:00 p.m. Mr. Gil Mueller seconded, and the motion passed
unanimously with a 3-0 vote.
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I
PARKS AND RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Golden Gate Community Park, Administrative Office
OCTOBER 24, 1990
I. CALL TO ORDER
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II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE Ta THE FLAG
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III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
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IV. ACTION LIST:
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1. Frank E. Mackie Jr. Park Community Center Expansion
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2. Dune Restoration Grant
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3. Vanderbilt Beach Access 44
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4. Plastics on the Beaches yfrl
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5. Conklin Point Final Plans
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6. Tigertail Vegetation Permit
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7. Regional Sports Park
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'`'e�'`r 8. Irtmlokalee Community Park Bathroom Facilities
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9. Beach Usage Report
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10. Annual Joint City-County Advisory Board Meeting
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X11. Neighborhood Parks
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--f--1�-- * FACILIT1 USER FEE POLICY ;
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Vi. ATHLETIC USER FEE POLICY CHANGE:
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Beach Access Issue
Mr. Kim Kobza: There's been a lot of discussion about the Beach Access Issue.
Mr. Cliff Crawford: Yes sir.
Mr. Kim Kobza: . . .and I wondered if you might prepare a summary for the
board which would go, something as follows. OK. First of
all, our use rates for each of our beach park facilities. So
in other words, I'm. . . How many days did we have, what use of
those facilities? Specifically Tigertail, Clam Pass,
Vanderbilt Beach, and Lely Barefoot I know is new. So, we
probably don't have any records of it, but you know we need to
have a category for Lely Barefoot. And then, secondly, uhm
what parking facility exist? How many parking spaces at each
of those facilities? I guess those things kind of go hand in
hand, don't they? Because if you know the number of parking
spaces, then you can figure out percentages. Let me tell you
specifically what I'm getting at here. OK? There's been a
lot of public discussion about a lack of beach access. And I
feel, but I'm not sure, which is why I'm asking for the data,
that what they're really saying is a lack of free public beach
access. Because, absent very few days a year, our facilities
have space in them. I don't think that we operate at 100%
capacity. You know, I don't know, I'd like to know that
information. But, do we operate at 100% capacity for more
than several days a year at any. . . Now I know at Tigertail we
probably do, but like in North Naples, Clam Pass, etc.
Because I think we need to start, you know, that issue is
going to keep rising again, again, and again. Also, this
would be an interesting thing to know from my perspective,
probably than from the other 4 members. But, from the City
boundary, North Naples, to the northern edge of the county,
how much of that Beach area comes within our control as a
county? In other words, we have Clam Pass, we have Vanderbilt
Beach, we have all Barefoot Beach, pluse we lease from the
state there, plus there's actually some beach line with
Wiggins' Pass State Park. So you know what I'm thinking is. . .
Right we. . Oh! Plus, plus the boat. . . Conklin point. So,
from that standpoint, we have. . . you know. . . I don't know how
much of the beach that is, but it seemed to me that's maybe
40% of the beach area.
Mr. Cliff Crawford: So basically take the. . . So I understand, Mr. Kim Kobza,
take basically the city boundaries go north to Bonita Beach
Road, Lee County line. . .
Mr. Kim Kobza: Right!
Mr. Cliff Crawford: . . .and you would like to know, out of that shoreline, how
much is County, or municipal, or state controlled or operated,
verses non. So, if there is 100,000 feet, you would like to
know there's 40,000 feet of city or governmental control.
Page #2
Mr. Gil Mueller: I conclude that the county would have 40% of the overall
beach.
Mr. Cliff Crawford: I don't know what the number is. I just trying to get a
handle on what he's looking for.
Mr. Kim Kobza: . . . Barefoot Beach. That's a lot of area.
Mr. Cliff Crawford: That's a big stretch. If you go out into the state,
you're looking probably dog-gone close to two miles.
Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, I'm thinking of all whole Naples shoreline. I'm
thinking of Keywadin, 7. . . you know. . . I'm thinking of that
end.
Mr. Kim Kobza: No. I'm just going at North Naples, because we're catching a
lot of criticism over the beach access issue, and, I think we
owe it to the public to have all the facts on that issue.
And, you know, we do have beach access points, and the
question I have, is. . . How much are those utilized, and how
much of that beach do we control as a government.
Mr. Gil Mueller: Throughout the entire county?
Mr. Kim Kobza: I think that we've done a very good job, and. . .
Mr. Cliff Crawford: In your area, I think that will reinforce your initial
thoughts on that. One question that I do have for you on that
Mr. Kobza, is. . . . . .particularly in relationship to the City,
the. . . You know, as you know the city has approximately. . .
. . .and Steve knows this, seven miles of beach, or so, and
while we can define that from the city north, now the city
maintains all that beach area whether it's public or private.
So how would you like us to address the city?
Mr. Kim Kobza: I think we need to break it down. Let's not address. . . well,
that's not true either.
Mr. Cliff Crawford: Because, that's all, you know, it's all. . .
Mr. Steve Ball: As far as the. . .
Mr. Kim Kobza: I think we need to footnote that fact that the city does
maintain the seven miles, but you've raised another good
point. In North Naples, you can break down the public beach
to that part which we maintain, what is governmentally
maintained (Barefoot, Wiggins Pass, Vanderbilt Beach, Clam
Pass) and also, you know. . Pelican Bay, I think by terms of
their DPI, we have public access to that. . . Boat Access, to
the beach, do we? We don't maintain it.
Mr. Steve Ball: Yeah! There's a big difference between maintenance and
access!
Page #3
Mr. Kim Kobza: That's what I was trying to account. We don't maintain it.
Mr. Steve Ball: I mean there could be a lot of maintenance, but little
access, or vise versa.
Mr. Kim Kobza: Right!
Mr. Gil Mueller: Kim, are you referring now, to the entire shoreline of
Collier County? Your asking for this information as it
relates to that, or to a specific area?
Mr. Kim Kobza: Well, Collier County, the metropolitan area, if you look at
the beach. If you break it down, you've got the city areas
(the part of the beach controlled by the city) , you've got
that part north of the city (which is the area I'm referring
to specifically) this is where all the political criticism is
coming from right now, is in the Vanderbilt Beach area, in
North, Bonita, and. . .
Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, I don't think it's necessary to go through with it.
Mr. Kim Kobza: Well, it. OK?
Mr. Cliff Crawford: I understand.
Mr. Kim Kobza: and Marco Island is. . .
Mr. Gil Mueller: The beach access issue on Marco has been boiling for years.
Mr. Kim Kobza: Well, maybe we should address this as it relates to Marco as
well.
Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, I think that if you're going to get that information
for. . . I think you should get if for the entire expanse of
beach.
Mr. Steve Ball: For the whole county.
Mr. Gil Mueller: Sure!
Mr. Kim Kobza: Well the county goes down into the 10,000 islands, and all
that.
Mr. Gil Mueller: Yes it does.
Mr. Kim Kobza: . . .so we have to be a little careful.
Mr. Gil Mueller: Well, when you get down to the end of Marco Island, that's
it. I mean from there on you have Ramono, and you'r not going
to take into consideration all those little islands down
there. That is generally considered the end.
Page #4
Mr. Kim Kobza: Would you bring it up through Keywadin, and that area?
Mr. Gil Mueller: I would say from the southern tip of Marco, from Caxambas
Pass on Marco, up to the county line, to Bonita Road. That's
really the active part of the beaches.
Mr. Kim Kobza: Now, we're making it a little more difficult. Is that
possible?
Mr. Murdo Smith: Well, when do you want it back?
Mr. Cliff Crawford: Anything's possible, it just when you get it.
Mr. Gil Mueller: You're really asking the extent of the usage of these
facilities?
Mr. Kim Kobza: Yeah! I think in the metropolitan area, there's been a
discussion related to the useage as it relates to the city.
The city has 36 beach access points or something. You know.
Mr. Steve Ball: The city keeps pretty accurate statistics on all these. . . for
that stretch of the city that's all. . . All that data is
available through the Community Services Department.
Mr. Kim Kobza: You can identify how many parking spots we have, and so forth.
Ok. In the North Naples area when you go from. . . . . .which is
what I'm most familiar with. When you go from the City line
north, we need to identify that same kind of data. To have an
intelligent discussion as to how much beach access there is or
there isn't, what the solutions are, and all that kind of. . .
Mr. Gil Mueller: And that's what from about Pine Ridge Road?
Mr. Kim Kobza: It's roughly the extension of Pine Ridge. Seagate, and then
again, doesn't it do a dipsy do over to Seagate?
Mr. Steve Ball: Yeah! Or did it go all the way across?
Mr. Murdo Smith: Naples Cay, is about the extent of it right there, isn't it?
Mr. Steve Ball: It might go all the way from Pine Ridge, clear across to. . .
Mr. Murdo Smith: I know Clam Pass is not within the City Limits.
Mr. Steve Ball: It might go all the way through Seagate, because I think that
was annexed.
Mr. Kim Kobza: Well, we can. That's something that Murdo can kind of work
with, but. . . That's what I'm most interested in. Marco does
have a beach access issue too, and they should be looking it
up. I think they kind of fall into different categories. We
don't have public facilities outside of Tigertail and the
North Naples Beaches.
Page #5
Mr. Steve Ball: Maybe that's what we need to look at more, where the public
facilities are. Because, south of the city, util you get to
what, Isle of Capri through Marco, is really undeveloped. I
mean there is a lot of beach access by boat, there's not many
facilities there.
Mr. Kim Kobza: Maybe what we should do, is leave it up to Murdo, and staff,
to come back to us with what they deem to be relative
information. All areas of the county, to the extent you can
put it together, to Marco to North Naples, but then additional
data if you have it for. . . You know, I've explained what I'd
like to see for North Naples.
Mr. Gil Mueller: What is the point of this whole issue?
Mr. Kim Kobza: The point is, there's a political discussion taking place
right now related to beach access issues, and I think it's
being conducted without adequate data and information.
Because we're catching a lot of criticism for not having
additional beach access, and the question is. . . Is it a real
issue, or is it not a real issue, and only by having that
data, do I think we will be, in the future, to deal with the
beach access question. The City has it, and I think we
probably have it too, but I'd like to see that.
Mr. Gil Mueller: But, I don't think it's necessary to do anything as far as
Marco is concerned, because geographically you have a
confinement there. It's a separate political issue, and there
is no question about the fact that there is no beach access on
Marco. There's no doubt about it. Now that I understand what
you're trying to accomplish, I think it would be a waste of
your time, Murdo, to involve. . .
Mr. Murdo Smith: Because, I know the work on beach accesses for Marco Island
has come through the Capital Projects, through we haven't even
been involved in that discussion or anything.
Mr. Gil Mueller: <>