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CLB Minutes 10/17/2001 ROctober 17, 2001 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida, October 17, 2001 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:05 a.m. In REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: GARY HAYES LES DICKSON CAROL PAHL SARA BETH WHITE WALTER CRAWFORD, IV RICHARD JOSLIN KEN LLOYD PATRICK NEALE, Attorney for the Board ROBERT ZACHARY, Assistant County Attorney THOMAS PALMER, Assistant County Attorney TOM BARTOE, Licensing Compliance Officer Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: October 17, 2001 TIME: 9:00 A.M. ADMINISTRATION BUILDING COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ~,NY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: September 19, 2001 V. NEW BUSINESS: John L. Bruce - Req. to qualify a 2nd entity. Michael Faulconer, Sr. - Req. to reinstate Masonry license without retaking exam. James L. DeMarco - Review of credit report. Danny N. Mitchell - Req. to be granted General Contractor license without exam based on City of Everglades license.. Thomas Higginbotham - Review of credit report. VI. OLD BUSINESS: Approve ordinance amendments. 2nd Entity Form - use of revised state form. VII. PUBLIC HEARINGS: VIII. REPORTS: IX. DISCUSSION: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: December 19, 2001 October 17, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to bring this meeting to order, Collier County Contractors' Licensing Board, October 17th, 2001, at 9:05 a.m. Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings pertaining thereto, and therefore, may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made which record indicates that testimony and evidence upon which an appeal is to be based. I'd like to start roll call to my right. MR. LLOYD: Ken Lloyd. MR. CRAWFORD: Walter Crawford. MR. DICKSON: Les Dickson. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Gary Hayes. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MS. PAHL: Carol Pahl. MS. WHITE: Sara Beth White. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do we have any additions or deletions to the agenda? MR. BARTOE: Staff has none. And, by the way, good morning, Mr. Chairman, board members. For the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, licensing compliance officer for Collier County. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any board members have any additions or deletions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: I need a motion to approve the agenda. MR. DICKSON: So moved. MR. JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Motion and second, all in favor. Opposed? Page 2 October 17, 2001 (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: All right. September 19th we have in front of us. them. I need a motion to approve. MR. JOSLIN: Motion. MS. PAHL: Pahl, second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) Approval of the minutes of I assume we've reviewed Any other discussion on the minutes? All in favor. Opposed? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. Moving right along here we have some new business. John L. Bruce, request to qualify a second entity. Mr. Bruce, are you present? MS. BRUCE: (Indicating.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Miss? Would you come up to the podium? MS. BRUCE: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to ask you to be sworn in. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning. MS. BRUCE: Good morning. I'm actually here on behalf of my husband. We were given the October 24th date, and he made arrangements to be somewhere else, and we were told last Friday that the date was today. So I'm here on his behalf. MR. BARTOE: And I do have to apologize on behalf of office staff. They circled the wrong date on the calendar and did think the meeting was on the 24th instead of the third Wednesday, as normal. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I was prepared to come last-- last Wednesday myself. Page 3 October 17, 2001 MR. BARTOE: And that is also the reason you were a little late getting your packets. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. DICKSON: Let's see if we can do it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What's your affiliation other than John's wife? MS. BRUCE: I'm the vice president. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Of the business. MS. BRUCE: Vice president of the company, bookkeeping, oversee some of the jobs. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that will help some. What company does John currently qualify? MS. BRUCE: John L. Bruce Construction Company, Inc. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What company is he looking to qualify? MS. BRUCE: J. L. Bruce Construction Company, Inc. MR. DICKSON: And the purpose for the two companies, Mrs. Bruce? MS. BRUCE: We were advised last year by our CPA that John L. Bruce Construction was a C corporation, unbeknownst to John, and we have a very large asset in this company that was given to him. It would be a huge financial burden to carry that asset in the company. So he requested us to start a new company under a S corporation. MR. DICKSON: I -- okay. I'm a roofing contractor by trade, but my degree's in accounting. MS. BRUCE: Okay. MR. DICKSON: Why didn't you just take the -- MS. BRUCE: Asset out? CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- one at a time. MS. BRUCE: I'm not a CPA, so I'm trying to answer the question the best that I can. I -- I think because he wanted to be able Page 4 October 17,2001 to keep this asset-- it's an aircraft. MR. DICKSON: Uh-huh. MS. BRUCE: And he didn't purchase the aircraft. It was given to him. So if he just changed the corporation, I think he still would have been liable for any tax issues. Like I said, I'm not a CPA. We're just doing what our accountant suggested we do. MR. DICKSON: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's the only reason? MS. BRUCE: Yes, sir. MS. WHITE: Is there also a Bruce Construction? MS. BRUCE: No. MS. WHITE: There's one referred to here in the paperwork as simply Bruce Construction. MS. BRUCE: That's just an error. MR. DICKSON: Everything's in order. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I personally don't see it as a valid reason to qualify a second construction-related business. But, you know, I don't see anything wrong with it either. But it seems like a long way to go around settling a situation that could be settled otherwise. But I don't see anything wrong with the pack-- the packet or the application. He doesn't intend to do business under both names in construction? MS. BRUCE: That's not our intention, no. It's to basically liquidate John L. Bruce Construction. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What's the pleasure of the board? MR. DICKSON: Well, his packet's good. His credit report's good. There's really no reason to deny it, so I'll move that it be approved. MS. WHITE: I'll second it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on the board? Page 5 October 17, 2001 (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) I'm calling for the vote. All in favor? Opposed? CHAIRMAN HAYES: He didn't have to be here after all. MS. BRUCE: Okay. Good. MR. BARTOE: Mrs. Bruce-- MS. BRUCE: Yeah. MR. BARTOE: I have Mr. Bruce's packet here and anyone else on the agenda who has a request today. So anything that's granted, you will not be able to come into the office on Horseshoe Drive and receive that license today. I -- I have to get the packets back later today, so anytime, you know, tomorrow or later. MS. BRUCE: Well, John will be back on Thursday. I'll have him come in and finish up. MR. BARTOE: Anytime after today. MS. BRUCE: Fine. Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you, Miss Bruce. Michael Faulconer, Sr., request to reinstate masonry license without retaking exam. Mr. Faulconer, are you present? MR. FAULCONER: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Would you come up to the podium, please, sir. I'm going to ask you to be sworn in. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning. Your name for the record. MR. FAULCONER: Michael Faulconer, Sr. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being here this morning, Mr. Faulconer? MR. FAULCONER: I'd like to renew my license. It was -- was Page 6 October 17, 2001 dormant. I -- I had knee surgery, artificial knee implanted five years ago. And I started teaching for the Vo-Tech, in our sixth year for apprenticeship program. I worked for Naples Concrete as a superintendent. So there -- I misplaced a dormant thing that came to my house or my wife did, and I'd didn't renew it. I'd like to renew it to requalify. CHAIRMAN HAYES: How long has it been expired? MR. FAULCONER: I think-- I think four, five years, maybe three. Three to five, I think. I'm. not sure. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I believe in your packet I saw the test results -- MR. FAULCONER: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- from your examinations. They were satisfactory at that time. MR. FAULCONER: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You've gone back into business or -- MR. FAULCONER: I want to qualify a business for my son and I, yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Are you going to still be teaching? MR. FAULCONER: Yes. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Chairman, the last thing we have in his file is that his dormant status expired September 30th, '98. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, in looking at the file, there's definitely proof of experience. I personally believe it would be superfluous to retake the exam. MR. DICKSON: Yes. Especially since he teaches it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What's the pleasure of the board? MR. DICKSON: Have to do it again? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'll make a motion we approve. Page 7 October 17, 2001 MR. DICKSON: I'll second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Calling for the vote. All in favor? (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: We don't like to give away licenses in lieu of the ordinances, but in a case where it is factually, visibly and documented superfluous, it's not a problem. MR. FAULCONER: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We don't have a problem with it either, Mr. Faulconer. MR. FAULCONER: I appreciate it very much. Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: As said before, your paperwork's all here, so you can't get anything done down at the county today. So it will be tomorrow before you can get down there and get anything. MR. FAULCONER: That would be fine. CHAIRMAN HAYES: All right. James L. DeMarco, review of credit report. Mr. DeMarco, are you present? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: This was left over from last meeting. MS. PAHL: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And I don't know what his problem for missing last time was, but do you have any reason for missing this time, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: If he does, I was not told. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, we can continue it one more time or take some action on it. It's up to the board. Page 8 October 17, 2001 MR. CRAWFORD: I think we need to table it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Uh-huh. MR. DICKSON: Does anybody know him? CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm familiar with the name, but I don't know him. No one has any information as to why he's not here. We can table it for one more meeting, and I'm going to suggest that at that third meeting if he's not present that we go ahead and take action in his absence and put it behind us. board? MS. PAHL: Fine. Is that satisfactory with the CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well, Mr. Bartoe. We'll just continue it to next month's -- or next meeting's agenda. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Danny N. Mitchell, request to be granted general contractor license without exam based on City of Everglades license. Mr. Mitchell, are you here? Come up to the podium, please, sir. I'm going to ask you to be sworn in, if you would, sir. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good morning. MR. MITCHELL: Good morning. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I need your name for the record. MR. MITCHELL: Danny Mitchell. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being here, Mr. Mitchell, this morning. MR. MITCHELL: Get registered in the county. I'm registered in Everglades City. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're registered in Everglades City. I was reviewing your packet earlier today if you're state registered -- you're state registered as a contractor for -- MR. MITCHELL: Yeah. CHAIRMAN HAYES: In Everglades City jurisdiction. Page 9 October 17, 2001 MR. MITCHELL: (Nodded head.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: I saw a copy of an awful lot of licenses, but I didn't see your state registration in here. MR. MITCHELL: It's supposed to be. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I may have missed it as well. But I'm just curious why it wasn't in the packet. MR. MITCHELL: It should be in the packet. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anybody on the board catch it? I see Collier County occupational, certificate of competency. MR. NEALE: It's on the -- at least in my packet, it's on the next page after the copies of the occ. licenses and the certificates of competency. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. It was here after all. MS. PAHL: Here it is. The state one's here. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So, basically, you're looking for-- to reciprocate license. MR. MITCHELL: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We don't have a -- automatic reciprocity ordinance, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: No, we did not. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Didn't we try to talk about that at one time? MR. NEALE: It was discussed at some length, and the board decided at that time to take no action on it in that there was differing - - differing opinion as to how to treat various jurisdictions. And so at that time it was just tabled for furore review. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Did you take any exams for the Everglades license at all, no administration, no specialty? MR. MITCHELL: I was grandfathered in in masonry license in this county probably 20 years ago, and then I got grandfathered in through Everglades City. Never took the test. Page 10 October 17, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I wish you wouldn't brag about it. MR. MITCHELL: But I've never had anything -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: I would say in some people's eyes, it makes it a little more difficult to just waive a granting of reciprocity. However, being a licensed contractor for a length of time in a -- in a adjacent jurisdiction does seem to render a -- an exam superfluous. MR. MITCHELL: The fact that I've built for the past 30 years is not good enough? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's what I'm saying. It is good enough to possibly look at the exam as superfluous, and this board's power has the ability to grant a license when we feel that that exam is superfluous, which means it just doesn't need to be there because it's a redundant test of your ability. MS. WHITE: I think whatever we do is going to set a precedent for reciprocity, and I think that we really need to consider that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I agree. I personally have a-- have a problem not having a automatic reciprocity clause in our ordinance because, you know, there's a lot of people doing business regularly consistently in adjacent counties that just because they've stepped across the county line they have to go through all the original hoops that they did once before back in their days to get licensed where they're at. Now, at one time sooner or later State of Florida will end up one license throughout the state. There won't be any county breakups. At that point in time it will be a little bit different. But I agree with you. I know what you're saying. It's going to set a precedent. Personally a couple years ago I tried to lobby this committee to put together a reciprocating ordinance just to avoid the situation of making a person jump through hoops they just didn't really need to. You know, if they've been licensed in a jurisdiction for a number of years doing business as usual, credit reports are good, pay their bills, no Page 11 October 17, 2001 complaints on -- on file, what more should they have to do to prove their ability to do business? MS. WHITE: Take the business and law exam. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't disagree with that, and that's why I wasn't happy about him bragging about it. MS. WHITE: Unfortunately, at the present time the way we are set up, if this is right, Mr. Neale, reciprocity does not exist today. And if we're going to do something with our ordinance amendments later in this meeting, that might be something that we can take care of today. But as it stands at this moment, we do not have reciprocity. MR. NEALE: No. The board in this matter would be referring - - would be reviewing it on the same basis as they basically reviewed the previous gentleman, which is, this is a referral to the board from staff for one question or another as to a person's qualifications to hold a license here in Collier County under the jurisdiction of Collier County. And so in that instance -- and I can quote you directly from the -- from the ordinance, when an application is referred to the Contractors' Licensing Board, the board shall take testimony from the applicant and shall consider other relevant evidence regarding whether the application meets the requirements of this division. Upon the evidence presented by the applicant and the contractor licensing supervisor, the Contractors' Licensing Board shall determine whether the applicant is qualified or unqualified for the trade in which the application is made. Findings of fact and conclusions of law regarding the approval or denial of the application shall be made by the Contractors' Licensing Board. The board may consider the applicant's relevant recent experience in a specific trade and based upon such experience may waive testing requirements if convinced that the applicant is qualified by experience whereby such competency testing would be superflu-- superfluous, as Mr. Hayes alluded to. Page 12 October 17, 2001 MS. WHITE: The difference in this case and the previous case, in this case the exam has never been taken. In the other case the exam had been taken and passed at one point; is that correct? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Uh-huh. MS. WHITE: So that is a little bit of a difference there to me. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I agree. If somebody comes in here and has done due process in any adjacent municipality, exams, qualification, experience, then I don't have a problem with an automatic reciprocity anyway. I wouldn't have a problem reciprocating with another municipality. However, in this particular case with the page after page of testimony to experience and being in the business for as many years as he has, I'm torn as well. MR. DICKSON: Can I ask, Mr. Mitchell, obviously you caught us off guard. And what we're trying to avoid doing here, and it's nothing against you, but we're trying to make sure that we define the case so that every other contractor in Everglades City is not on next month's agenda thinking that we're going to automatically approve them a license because that isn't going to happen. So I want to hear you, how long have you been here, how long have you been in the business? In other words, make your case for us. Okay? MR. MITCHELL: Well, I've been in the business here for 30 years. I was licensed here in '72 as a masonry contractor. I've been working in Everglades City. I've built every business in Everglades City, a lot of houses. I mean, I've been working over there since I got out of masonry business because of the drive. And all the -- all the jobs that I've -- I've done, like, on the surrounding areas had to go, like, through builder owner to do it because I'm not licensed. That's the reason I want to get licensed is make everything legal and on the up and up. We have, like, Chokoloskee, Plantation, and the outskirt areas of Copeland and all. And that's the area I work in. That's what I've Page 13 October 17, 2001 been working for the last 30 years. I have a need to come over here. And I've got people wanting me to build houses -- I can't permit in Chokoloskee, which is only 3 miles away from Everglades and Plantation, which is adjoining it. That's the reason I'm trying to get the license because trying to get a contractor down in Chokoloskee and Everglades is kind of hard to do. So most people come to me because all kinds of-- all the real estate people in the city hall, that's the name they give because I'm the one that does most of the work there. MR. DICKSON: You're from this area? MR. MITCHELL: I was born and raised here. CHAIRMAN HAYES: How long have you held a state registered general contractor's license? MR. MITCHELL: Three years. That's when they-- that's when Everglades City decide to go ahead and get everyone registered. Ken Babke's (phonetic) the one that did it. He's our building guy. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Bartoe, in 1972 did Collier County have testing requirements? MR. BARTOE: You're talking before my time. MR. CRAWFORD: I realize that. MR. MITCHELL: They grandfathered a lot of people in. It might have been '71, '72, somewhere around in there. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, once again, I think you just answered the question that you've only held a general contractor's license for three years. You may have held a masonry contractor's license since '72. MR. MITCHELL: Well, I've only been state registered for 3 years. I've been general contractor in Everglades for many years. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You've been a licensed general contractor -- MR. MITCHELL: They issued license -- that's what all those Page 14 October 17, 2001 competency cards I've got in my packet for many years back for general contracting. They allowed me to do it until I guess some complaints because people wasn't registered with the state. I don't know what brought it about. But anyway, they made everybody do it that was building, and that's what I did. MR. DICKSON: Well, I can confirm that, the state started three or four years pushing to get all county licenses in a registered mode, correct, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: Correct. MR. NEALE: Yeah. They amended the statute. I don't remember which series of amendments. That was when they began requiring contractors that were listed in their list of contractors in before '89 to become registered was really when it all happened which was roughly four years ago or so. MR. DICKSON: It was just paperwork, find out who they are and get some money. MR. MITCHELL: Right. MR. NEALE: If I could, maybe Mr. Bartoe could clarify something for us, and this may clarify it for the board also. Mr. Bartoe, if a contractor here in Collier County, a Collier County licensed registered general contractor had been contracting for the last 15 years, we wouldn't -- and he just kept renewing his license, we wouldn't have any problem with -- would we have any problem renewing his license just because he hadn't taken the test? MR. BARTOE: No. MR. CRAWFORD: That's -- that's where I was headed, yeah. MR. DICKSON: I'm going to make a motion, but I'm going to preface it by the fact that these are very definitely different circumstances. We have a man who was born and raised here, been building here prior to licensing, prior to state registration, prior to state licenses. His credit report is good except for it looks like one Page 15 October 17, 2001 doctor you got in an argument with. MR. MITCHELL: A what? MR. DICKSON: Yeah. There's one. You can look at it if you want. But that's understandable. And the one letter that really impressed me in the whole packet was the one from the building department in Everglades City where he said in six years he's never had a corrective work order. There's not very many people that can claim that. Given all those factors and the fact that he does go back a long time, I move that the request be approved. MS. PAHL: I'll second it, Pahl. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on the issue? MS. WHITE: But it doesn't indicate knowledge of business and law, only knowledge of the trade; right? MR. DICKSON: Yeah. But it's kind of like -- it's everything else. His experience indicates knowledge of business and law. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah. I would suggest that you're right. However, if there was evidence of not having any business sense, since he has been in business doing the business he's doing for as long as he has, it would have shown up in his credit report. MS. WHITE: I agree. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Calling for the vote. All in favor. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. We just want to make sure that it's not a -- an open door, you understand, and-- and the prerequisite requirements that Mr. Dickson has discussed hopefully Page 16 October 17, 2001 will make everyone understand that. MR. MITCHELL: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you, sir. Thomas Higginbotham, review of credit report. Mr. Higginbotham, are you here? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Would you come up to the podium, please. I'm going to ask you to be sworn in, please, sir. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Yes. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name for the record. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Thomas Higginbotham, Sr. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being here this morning? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: To apply for a contractor's license for hurricane shutters here in Collier County. CHAIRMAN HAYES: This is an original application for license? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You haven't been licensed as -- in this trade prior to this? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: No, sir. MR. BARTOE: And the two extra pages that I passed out to go with his packet, office staff called him and advised him it wasn't in his packet, and so he provided them today. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, I believe in reviewing the packet the packet is generally in order. The application is -- is in order, and the examination requirements have been met? And the only reason that he's brought here is because there's some indiscretions in his credit report? MR. BARTOE: That's correct. Page 17 October 17, 2001 MR. DICKSON: Mr. Higginbotham, I'll ask the question: You know what we're looking at, and since you went through the experience, you know what we've seen here, such as repossession by Bank of America, a write-off from American General. All of these were taking place in what? 1997 and 19987 MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: You filed for a bankruptcy. Do you want to explain what happened there? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: I can do that. In '91 I started a lawn and pressure-cleaning business on the side from being a fireman. In '96 1 blew a disc in my back, and a week before Christmas I had surgery. And that took me out of work for a little over three months. And the business that I had, I was just unable to get back to work three months later and recoup the losses that I had. That summer I tried the best I could, and at the end of the summer I realized that I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't make up the losses and eventually had to file. MR. DICKSON: And since that time what have you been doing? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Since that time I've met all my obligations. I've got a better business, I feel, and have met all my -- I'm sure if you -- if you've got the right one, it will show that since meeting the obligation there that I haven't been late on any payment. MR. DICKSON: You're still with the fire department? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Yes. MR. DICKSON: Okay. And what side jobs have you been doing since that time? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: MR. DICKSON: Okay. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: almost 3 years. Well, hurricane shutters. I worked for Roll-Safe for 2 1/2, And they got real slow, and I just decided to go out Page 18 October 17, 2001 on my own and try it. MR. DICKSON: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: May I remind the board, I think the only action that we need to look at is to approve or deny the credit report based on oral testimony or any other evidence that we can uncover this morning. MS. WHITE: So what's occurred since March 1st -- oh, I'm sorry. Since September 25th, '97? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: What's occurred? MS. WHITE: There's a judgment January 27th, '98. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: All that has been taken care of as of February of this year. The obligation has been met. MR. NEALE: If you'll look on the last page of the credit-- pardon me, the last page of the credit report, it reflects the disposition of the Chapter 13 which says that it was completed as of March 1. MR. DICKSON: What I'm looking for as I go through here is some that are current, like there's Provincial Financial, which is 28 months of credit reviewed. And he has no past dues, and that's current. Suncoast School is current, although that's only three months. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Actually, I don't think they've -- they've sent you the updated version. MR. DICKSON: Well, you've got some positives here, Savon Furniture, that's 40 months. That's current. There's another one, William Fin. I assume that's abbreviation for W.M. Finance or William Financing. You may not even know -- MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: That doesn't ring a bell, no, sir. MR. MR. I thought myself. I DICKSON: Eighty-five months and current. HIGGINBOTHAM: If I may, I've got the updated version, they would send you. Since then I've purchased a truck for have two credit -- credit cards, and those are never late. Page 19 October 17, 2001 MR. DICKSON: I'd like to see them. Do we need to introduce it into evidence? MR. NEALE: Yeah. Just give it to the clerk so she can look at it. Mark it and then hand it up to the board and we'll let them review it. While this is being done, just, I wanted to review for the board the definition of financial responsibility as it applies to this kind of situation. This is from the Florida Administrative Code, which is the underlying authority for this. Financial responsibility for this instance is defined as the ability to safeguard, that the public will not sustain economic loss resulting from the contractor's inability to pay his lawful contractual obligations. That's the test that you'll be look -- that you're to look at. (Composite Exhibit A was marked for identification.) MR. DICKSON: Do you want me just to review that, Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah, you can do that. It might be easier than passing it by every one of us first. MR. DICKSON: It is dated September 4th. The cover page says it is showing that it is showing revisions to the credit report. The first part is just who he is. Here we go. Provincial Financial has revolving credit. It says open, then next to it it says never late. That was opened in 1999 of March. SEC, Pacific Finance, opened in July of 1993, revolving credit, never late; Suncoast -- Coast Schools, never late, current; Savon Furniture, opened in 1992 -- when was your bankruptcy? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: In '97. MR. DICKSON: Okay. Well, you got through some of these even during your bankruptcy. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: I think that was paid off before then. But -- yes, sir, there were some obligations that we met before. MR. DICKSON: Okay. Page 20 October 17, 2001 MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: And there were some that I just was not able to. MR. DICKSON: Because this Savon says never late. American General, '92, never late. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: If I may, up before that time, there wasn't a glitch on my credit report. MR. DICKSON: Yeah. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: But until then, it was just too much. MR. DICKSON: Burdines credit card, 1986 to -- to date never late. And there are -- there's two sides to these pages. I don't --just not going over them in detail. And then it shows some of them that are on the credit report we have that were discharged through a bankruptcy in-- I'll pass it on down. Basically what I saw is exactly what the man said. MR. NEALE: One other thing to note, and this has been brought before the board, but with Mr. Lloyd being new on the board, I want to bring it before you again. In the administrative code there is a provision, Part 3. It states that the applicant's history of bankruptcy is included in the statutory definition of financial responsibility. It shall be considered by the board. However, the fact that an applicant has been or is a debtor in bankruptcy shall not be the sole basis of the board's determination to deny the issuance of license. That said, however, there is a -- a Florida attorney general's opinion that says that the board may not consider past or present bankruptcy of an applicant for certification at that point as contractor in determining whether to qualify applicant for certification or for a license because the action is prohibited by the U.S. Bankruptcy Code and the supremacy clause of the constitution. So -- MR. DICKSON: So are you saying we can just look at activity after the bank -- Page 21 October 17, 2001 MR. NEALE: You really have -- the way I would interpret this, and Mr. Zachary may want to comment on this, too, the way I would interpret is you can look at his conduct prior to the bankruptcy and look at the conduct after the bankruptcy. But the fact of the bankruptcy itself really may not be considered in whether the applicant is qualified or not. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Well, if I may, that experience is one that I -- I can tell you I will never go through again, the -- the credit that I had at that time I understand was more than I should have, and I've taken steps that that will not happen again. MS. WHITE: I don't understand why there was a judgment in January of '98 right after the bankruptcy was filed. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Which one was that? MS. WHITE: It's Lee County monogram credit card Bank of Georgia. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: If I remember correctly, that was one that was not notified. MS. WHITE: Oh, okay. That can happen. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, have you ever received any complaints Mr. Higginbotham may be practicing his trade independently without a license? MR. BARTOE: I haven't, and I cannot speak if whether Mr. 0ssorio has or not. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're not aware of anything on the record by anybody? MR. BARTOE: No. But I believe we could ask Mr. Higginbotham. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Have you ever been stopped or cited for operating without a license? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: No, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You are under oath. Page 22 October 17, 2001 MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: Where are you a fireman? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: City of Fort Myers. And I was born and raised here, too, if that helps. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You -- you don't do your trade in Fort Myers? MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: I've worked for Roll-Safe for 2 1/2 years. CHAIRMAN HAYES: But you're not trying to get a license in Fort Myers. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Well, from what I understand, they will not accept -- you will not accept their license, but they will accept yours. So that's why I'm coming to get yours and then go there and get theirs. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, you got a point with that lack of reciprocity. MR. DICKSON: I tell you what-- CHAIRMAN HAYES: One at a time. MR. DICKSON: That's not our understanding. If that's the case, I'd love for you to make that knowledge aware of. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: need a license. MR. DICKSON: Yeah. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Well, when I first started you didn't In '98 or '99 they changed that. So I went to Lee County and asked them. They said all you got to take is a business and law. I called Collier County and they say you got to take aluminum and business and law. So Lee County -- or Collier County would not accept that at the time from Lee County. So I figured, well, I'll get Collier County's and then go back to them. MR. DICKSON: Well, the reason for a lot of those changes is because with the new codes going in effect January 1, 2002, we had Page 23 October 17, 2001 to come up with a category of testing for hurricane shutters because it's, as you know, it's going to be a great business to get into. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Yes. That's why I'm trying to stay in it. MR. DICKSON: Prior to that we didn't have -- prior to just a few months ago we didn't have a category. But I would love to know if Lee County's giving reciprocity to Collier. I've not been aware of that. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: I don't know if it's the same, but that's the way it was when they said you had to have a license in '99. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I agree. I'm -- I'm not aware of that either, but-- MR. DICKSON: Call -- call us back if that's the case. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: They have changed. But that's the way it was then, or at least the person I spoke to told me that. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Chairman, I move, given the circumstances of his credit prior to the bankruptcy, circumstances of why the bankruptcy was necessitated, and his excellent credit after the bankruptcy, I move that this -- and everything, having taken the test and everything else being in order, I'd move that the license be issued to this gentleman. MR. CRAWFORD: Second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. I'm going to vote against it, and I'm going to recommend a second motion. I'm not going to grant him a license. The county will grant him the license. I'm going to approve his credit report. Everything else is under control in here. Everything else is in order. I don't think that we even need to grant this gentleman a license. Everything is in order, and he will be able to accept this license once we approve the credit report. His reason for being here today was to review the credit report. MR. DICKSON: Should I amend the motion, Mr. Neale? Page 24 October 17, 2001 MR. NEALE: And-- MR. DICKSON: Just to approve. MR. NEALE: Well, I think Mr. Dixon's motion is proper because it does reference the credit report. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. No problem. Any other discussion on the motion? MR. DICKSON: I thought I was home. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Call for the vote. All in favor2 (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. Once again, your paperwork is here. You can't do anything about it until tomorrow, at the very least. I think everything else is in order, so it's just a matter of going down and taking care of business at Mr. Bartoe's office. MR. HIGGINBOTHAM: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you, sir. MS. WHITE: Mr. Higginbotham. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Under old business, since we seem to have moved right on through the new business, we have in our packet the second entity form that we've been reviewing for the past length of time. I think we need to probably go ahead and try to settle on it. Hopefully we've done enough homework, looked it over and can make a recommendation here. I personally have a couple of questions on the guidelines for the second entity qualification. It's the second group of paperwork with the application you had. The application itself, and then there is some second-entity guidelines. MR. DICKSON: I think you're the only one that got-- MS. WHITE: Yeah, I didn't get that. MR. LLOYD: You're the only one that has that. Page 25 October 17, 2001 MR. CRAWFORD: We didn't bring ours back. We got-- we received one last month. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I am privileged. Mr. Neale, do you have a copy of it? MR. ZACHARY: Is it the guidelines you need, this (indicating)? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, sir. MR. ZACHARY: I just happen to have some. Pass them down. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Excellent. Now, these are -- I have one somebody can share as long as I, MR. BARTOE: please, get it back. MR. DICKSON: We have plenty. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think we have enough. I have one. MR. BARTOE: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What this is is a list of requirements form, the notarized statement of credit report, proof of license, and so on and so forth. My concerns were Items 7, 8, and maybe 9. In the past the way we've done business with the second entity qualifications, we haven't done even anything close to required bank statements for the previous three months on both the present and the proposed entity. That's quite a -- an extensive requirement, in my opinion. I'm just not quite sure we need to beat our applicants up that severely. And then the next item, the verification of bank balance for each entity for the same dates not to exceed three months prior to the scheduled hearing, how much of a person's business is our business? MR. NEALE: Well, this was taken directly from the state application. CHAIRMAN HAYES: bringing it out. I know. That's correct. And that's why I'm MR. NEALE: That's entirely up to the board. We drafted this to mirror the state's application with taking out some of the Page 26 October 17, 2001 provisions that just weren't relevant. If the board thinks that's too onerous, that's totally up to the board. One thing to note about this, too, is this is something that the board will be establishing as a policy and procedure of the board. This does not require -- in my opinion, does not require approval by the Board of County Commissioners. This is the procedure that this board will establish for the application. So it's -- it's entirely up to this board. Nobody else has -- gets to review it or anything. MR. DICKSON: A question I have, Mr. Neale. I know where you brought that from, and it affected us when we got our state licenses. There are certain categories that require a certain amount of capital in order to be issued a license. MR. NEALE: Right. MR. DICKSON: And-- which I agree with. Start off with a contracting business you don't have a penny in your pocket. MR. NEALE: And something that's not in -- I don't believe is in the guidelines, excuse me, that we handed out, is in the state application, there's actually a little box at the bottom of the page that says here's how much your net worth has to be for each category of contractor, whereas obviously we don't have that in Collier County license so -- MR. DICKSON: My question is, couldn't we amend 7 and 8? Because I really don't want to see bank statements. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Uh-huh. MR. DICKSON: And I know county doesn't want to make copies of all of them. Couldn't we amend 7 and 8 to spell out that section of the state code, verification of net worth? CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't even think we need that because they've already proven that when they got the license issued to begin with. We're not trying to reissue them a license, you see. They've already proved that. Page 27 October 17, 2001 MR. DICKSON: That's a good point. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't think we need it at all, in my opinion. MR. CRAWFORD: I think we can clearly scratch 7, 8, and 9. MR. DICKSON: Yeah. MR. NEALE: Well, the -- 9, that one we put in, if I can argue a little bit for its inclusion. What that one is designed to do, and it really was in response to questions that this board typically asks, is this one requires the applicant to tell you how he's going to get paid, both by his previous -- by his current business and by the new one. MR. DICKSON: Yeah. And I like that one in there because I remember one gentleman that didn't understand the question and said that he was being paid $2,000 cash. MR. NEALE: To hang his license. MR. DICKSON: To get this second entity. MR. NEALE: And, as you see, that one refers to the questionnaire to the actual application itself where the -- the contractor has to answer it in there. What this -- the guidelines really are is, here's what you got to bring to the table so that this board can review -- the staff and the board can review the license -- in this case the board can review the license. So this is just something that -- that Maggie could hand out at the counter before someone even wants do it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's exactly-- MR. NEALE: It says, do you want to qualify second entity? Well, here's what you need to do. So that's what this is designed to do. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I would bring those two up and I would suggest that we scratch items -- take items 7 and 8 completely off of the guidelines for Collier County usage. Anybody got any other thoughts on those two? Page 28 October 17, 2001 MR. DICKSON: I'll second that motion. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't know that we need a vote on it or a motion. But, as far as I'm concerned, if it helps clean the record up, I'll call for a vote on that. All in favor? (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. Mr. Bartoe, did you catch what we were doing there? MR. BARTOE: Scratch Item 7 and 8. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do you have any objections to that? MR. BARTOE: No, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. And-- MR. BARTOE: What -- what staff would like to see today -- and, Mr. Neale, is it possible today with these amendments that the board makes to the guidelines and to the application itself that they can approve both these forms as amended today and then-- MR. NEALE: Yup. MR. BARTOE: -- once you get the -- get them to staff as they're amended today, we can start using them. MR. NEALE: Exactly. I mean, this -- this board, when they vote on it today, this becomes part of the policy and procedure of this board, thus, the staff can begin using it immediately. MR. DICKSON: Do we need to make a motion to approve this form? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh, I think that's appropriate. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah. I'll -- does anybody have any other thoughts or questions or input on the balance of the application? Anything in there that needs to be studied or elaborated on? MR. BARTOE: On the application itself, under-- underneath Page 1, underneath the application to qualify a second entity, we just Page 29 October 17, 2001 have to change the spelling of the word "to," t-o. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do we have any other copies of the second entity? Seem to be-- MR. NEALE: The application form. MR. ZACHARY: This here? CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm sorry. one last month. MR. LLOYD: that. I think everybody was given Yeah. We did because I made a comment on MR. ZACHARY: I don't know if I've got enough. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I should have mine. We're in good shape. MR. DICKSON: We're good. MR. NEALE: In referring to No. 9 on the guidelines which will now become, I guess, No. 7, Questions I and J in the application speak to that -- that guideline. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So that doesn't even need to be on the guidelines except-- MR. NEALE: Well, just that they know that that's something that they're going to have to -- have to answer. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Beautiful. MR. NEALE: I -- my interpretation of the guidelines was that this was really sort of such that the applicant will have a -- no surprises when he gets in there and starts digging through the application. So if he decides that this is more than he wants to tell us, then he doesn't get a second entity qualified. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Excellent point. Mr. Neale, did you have any other comments about it? MR. NEALE: No. MR. CRAWFORD: Item 11 about halfway in is proof of continuing education. That wouldn't apply to us. Page 30 October 17, 2001 MR. NEALE: That's only if it's required, because -- and I -- and I -- it probably is irrelevant to the people who would be coming here for a second entity qualification but -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Zachary, do you have any comments on it? MR. ZACHARY: No, not at this point. MS. WHITE: I have a comment. I'd like to see on the first page the name of the business presently qualified and the name of the business to be qualified. MR. NEALE: That was mentioned last time, and that change does need to be made. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Front page having both businesses. Both businesses so that at the outset my brain can MS. WHITE: be in order. MR. NEALE: MR. LLOYD: MR. NEALE: Yeah. In fact, I believe we discussed it last time. We did. We were going to take the block, the federal privacy act block off the first page and move it somewhere else and put both names of businesses on there. That can be done. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You do have this thing electronically stored. MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So it's not going to be a problem for you to move those things around? MR. NEALE: Yeah. MR. ZACHARY: No. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, do you have any suggestions or recommendations regarding this form? MR. BARTOE: No, sir. Office staff reviewed this and felt that it was fine. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Excellent. So if we can make a motion Page 31 October 17, 2001 that -- to approve this form and the guidelines as amended today, then you could get this thing in operation pretty soon. MR. BARTOE: As soon as either Mr. Neale or Zachary gets it as amended to us, we'll get it in our computer and start using it. MR. NEALE: We'll have it there this week. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Excellent. Anybody want to make that motion? MR. DICKSON: I just have one question on the -- page 6, Item No. 8, corporation. MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. MR. DICKSON: Do we want annual reports of the corporation? MR. NEALE: Either-- it could be either annual report or certificate of status, but we want one or the other. MR. DICKSON: Certificate of status being what we file for each year with the state? MR. NEALE: Well, the annual report is what you file every year with the state. It's the uniform annual business report that you file for your corporation. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You have to file it every year anyway. MR. NEALE: You have to file every year. It's the one that lists officers and directors and who your registered agent is. MR. DICKSON: And the way I read that is you wanted my annual report of the corporation. MR. NEALE: No. It says that we just want the one that's filed with the secretary of state. MR. DICKSON: Could we change the wording so there's not confusion there. MR. NEALE: It does say the annual report form filed with the secretary of state, but we could probably -- MR. DICKSON: Is that what it's called? MR. NEALE: Yeah. It's actually the annual business report I Page 32 October 17, 2001 think what it's actually called so we'll find out what the formal name of it is and make sure we've got the right nomenclature. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, what I want though is not to have something like that delay the process. MR. NEALE: No. We'll get that taken care of. No. And we don't want -- we don't want people's annual tax returns and stuff like that. So that is No. 8. MR. DICKSON: This is sure going to save county staff a lot of time. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think it will save a lot of us a lot of time. The second entities will be in and out of here a lot quicker fashion. MR. NEALE: That was -- that was the goal. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anybody interested in making a motion? MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I'll make a motion that we approve this application to qualify a second entity. CHAIRMAN HAYES: As amended? MR. JOSLIN: As amended. MS. PAHL: I'll second that, Pahl. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Calling for the vote. All in favor? (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. Let's put it in process and get things going. A long time coming. MR. DICKSON: Who did this? CHAIRMAN HAYES: This is a state form. Page 33 October 17, 2001 MR. NEALE: Yeah. It's a state form, and then staff and Mr. Zachary and myself collaborated to chop it up and make it relevant to Collier County. MR. DICKSON: Thank you very much. We have been anxiously awaiting. Nice job. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Great. Okay. Apparently we have no public hearings on the docket. Mr. Bartoe, do we have any reports? MR. BARTOE: No reports. But under-- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Oh, I'm sorry. The approval of the ordinance amendments. MR. NEALE: Ordinance amendments. MR. ZACHARY: And I think I passed those out earlier. I did go through there and change fire sating to fire retardant. But now I -- I understand that fire sating is a term of art in the industry that's -- that's used, so I can go back and change that -- MR. NEALE: Back to sating. MR. ZACHARY: Back to sating. The only real difference between this and the ordinance you had before was that we've taken out financially responsible officer. That's in there. And just a few changes to the -- to the order of things were in. But other than that, this is pretty much what you've seen before, so I think only those couple of changes, I think that you've -- this is the same ordinance you've -- you've had a chance to review for the last, I guess, couple of months. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Zachary, on page 2, Item 1.3.1 you've got underlined "Or building or improving commercial buildings at the cost not to exceed 25,000." That was part of the original ordinance to begin with. Was there a variance in the amount, dollar amount or-- MR. ZACHARY: No. That wasn't part of the original ordinance. Page 34 October 17, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: It wasn't? MR. BARTOE: Years ago it was. MR. NEALE: Years ago it was, then it was taken out. Since it conforms with state statutes we propose that it be returned. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Excellent. And that -- that amount conforms with state regulations? MR. NEALE: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: In talking about your fire retardant, I know sating is not a formal word, but I wonder if stopping would be used for retardant. MR. NEALE: Well, stopping is -- according to Mr. Crawford, who is our resident fire sating and stopping expert -- MR. CRAWFORD: Sating and stopping are just a common phrase. MR. NEALE: So, you know, I would suggest that we use the -- the phraseology that's common in the industry so that the person reading the ordinance who we presume is a contractor will understand it. MS. PAHL: Sating and stopping are synonymous; correct. MR. CRAWFORD: They are, but they always go hand in hand. For whatever reason, they're read that way. MS. PAHL: Okay. MR. ZACHARY: Is it one thing -- am I being redundant by putting fire sating and fire stopping in there? MR. CRAWFORD: I don't think so. I believe sating refers to the insulation-type material that's stuffed into the cavity, and stopping is more of the caulk that seals the cavity. MR. NEALE: I remember Mr. Pedone, I believe it was, came and gave us testimony on this. And he made a -- my memory is vague on this, but I believe he made a fairly clear distinction between sating and stopping and so that there are two different -- different Page 35 October 17, 2001 animals. I claim no expertise in that area at all. MR. CRAWFORD: The -- the bottom of page 6 refers to the Collier County amendments to the standard building code. Perhaps we should say, or applicable code because the new Florida building code will be in effect in a few months. MR. NEALE: Hmm. Right. MR. DICKSON: Can I ask a question on our new category, hurricane shutter awning -- awning contractor? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. MR. DICKSON: In discussions around town with several people, including general contractors and others, there is a lot of people that are opening up divisions for hurricane shutters, and nobody's aware of this new category and they're just assuming that under their current license they can do it. In a situation like this does the county have a means of notification? Do we go through all the industry associations? Do we send a mailer out? How do we notify people that this category exists and they have to comply? MS. WHITE: And, also, there might need to be notification to people that hold this license because it says contractors who currently hold the license on the effective date of this amendment are not required to pass a test but must apply for the certificate not later than a year from the date of the amendment. So they're going to have to be notified to do that. MR. BARTOE: I think after this ordinance gets amended anyone with a aluminum or aluminum with concrete license could be sent a letter advising that they can switch to this new license if they desire to do so. MR. NEALE: But I think Mr. Dickson what you were driving at there may be a lot of people who are doing this that don't even know - MR. LLOYD: Yeah. His point was -- Page 36 October 17, 2001 MR. DICKSON: Exactly. MR. NEALE: -- they need a license at all. MR. DICKSON: I know one large lumber company here in town that is opening up a division for hurricane shutters. In talking with the president of the company and telling him about this, he had no earthly idea that this was required. MR. BARTOE: That -- that it what? MR. DICKSON: He had no idea that we had this new code of a hurricane shutter. I mean, that could have been done under auspices of a general contractor; correct? MR. BARTOE: Correct. MR. DICKSON: But it can't now. MR. NEALE: Huh-uh. MR. BARTOE: Why not? CHAIRMAN HAYES: But you don't have to have just a contractor's license to do it. MR. DICKSON: But a general contractor without this specialty license cannot do the work. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, he can. MR. DICKSON: He can? MR. BARTOE: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: Show me where you see that. MR. BARTOE: He's unlimited -- he's unlimited in his scope of work, if you read the ordinance, which I don't have in front of me. CHAIRMAN HAYES: There's only seven trades in the industry that a general contractor cannot do. MR. DICKSON: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yours being one of them. MR. NEALE: You two being two of them. MR. BARTOE: If I may, I believe our purpose of creating this license was -- was to satisfy people who had a request that this is all Page 37 October 17, 2001 they want to do. or concrete. MR. DICKSON: MR. BARTOE: MR. DICKSON: They don't want to do anything else with aluminum Okay. So a general can do this. Yes, sir. That's my question. MR. NEALE: The issue is really to protect the public against people who might want to -- since there was no license category, might want to try to do it completely unlicensed or do it under a inappropriate license category so -- but I would suggest that this board might recommend that the CBIA and the specialty contractors' association be notified by staff this has happened because they might want to put it in their newsletters or something like that. MR. DICKSON: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That there has been created a separate license for those just wanting to practice -- MR. NEALE: Especially contractor's building association but also CBIA. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Lloyd, to bring you up to speed, quite some time prior to you joining us on the board, we had a couple of workshops with the trades themselves, the trade -- the trades in the industries. The individuals came in and-- and recommended, suggested, and modified, and we discussed some of the licensing amendments necessary to continue doing it and bringing it up to date. And this, as you see in front of you today, is a result of those workshops. It's been taking some time to get it all taken care of. But it is now in front of us, and we're hoping if we can approve this thing today, then we can make a recommendation to go to the county commission and have -- and suggest that they recommend it too. MR. LLOYD: Good. Thank you. MR. DICKSON: I guarantee just as soon as we approve it the very next meeting there will be a case that doesn't fit. Page 38 October 17, 2001 MR. NEALE: There will -- there will somebody that wants to hang papers from the ceiling or something, and we're going to -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: And that's all he wants to do. MR. JOSLIN: There's one typographical error on page 7, 1.6.3.25 about halfway down the page. It says sanitary sewer system and portable waterline. I'm sure it's supposed to be potable. MR. NEALE: Exactly. It's potable water. MR. ZACHARY: That's the trouble with spellcheck. Portable is a word. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Also, Mr. Lloyd, this packet that you have in front of you today are only the pages regarding the amendments. The ordinance itself, if you haven't -- MR. LLOYD: (Indicating). CHAIRMAN HAYES: You have a copy of it, fine. So this is just a slight version of it. MR. LLOYD: Okay. Thank you. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I move that we approve the state form, revised state form. MR. NEALE: You're talking about the ordinance amendments? MR. CRAWFORD: The ordinance amendments. MR. JOSLIN: Joslin, second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second to approve the recommendations to the ordinance, the license -- Collier County licensing ordinance. Any further discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: finally. I'm calling for the vote. All in favor? Opposed? Super. We got that one behind us Page 39 October 17, 2001 I want to also ask real quick -- I don't know if, Mr. Neale, Mr. Bartoe, Mr. Zachary, I would ask you that as soon as that license -- or that ordinance is approved by county commission that we have a new copy of the entire ordinance -- MR. NEALE: Yup. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- be issued out to us. MR. NEALE: We'll do that. And as soon as Municipal Code Corporation produces the amended codified ordinance, we'll get you a copy of the codified. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Oh, no questions. MR. BARTOE: What -- I have a question on -- Mr. Zachary can answer it. When we go before the board of commissioners to approve the amended ordinance, do they get the entire ordinance with these changes in it, or would they just get these changes as we see them? MR. NEALE: They'll just get the changes. MR. ZACHARY: I think it's just going to be changes because we send this in and then the municipal code corporation incorporates the changes into the code. They're just going to see the changes. They're just going to see this part (indicating). They're not going to see -- like, the earlier one had the entire ordinance and -- and the changes incorporated into the whole thing, but that's really not the efficient way to do it. We just do the changes, and it comes out in the code with the changed -- with the changes incorporated. So I'm not sure you're going to see an entire ordinance with these changes incorporated. We'll just have to sort of read the two together. MR. NEALE: Until -- until the municipal code corp. Goes through and make -- gives us the codified amendments. As Mr. Zachary says for a while you're going to be playing with two decks of cards. You're going to have your original ordinance in one hand and your amendments in the other hand and be looking at the two of them Page 40 October 17, 2001 until we get a new codified ordinance back. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We have two copies of the same ordinance, one is the codified version and one is the ordinance itself. MR. NEALE: Right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're telling me we will never see a copy of the ordinance itself intact in one individual copy. MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We always have. MR. NEALE: Well, because the way this is being amended, we're only sending the amendments forward. We're not sending the full ordinance forward. So what you'll get is you'll get a codified ordinance that has the amendments incorporated. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It sounds like the attorney's way of-- twist us into using the codified version from now on. Because if it's all written down in one document, I'll carry that document around. MR. NEALE: I have no comment on that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Let me ask you, Mr. Zachary, a little side note about that. If there is a -- I don't know if it would be a typo that was done -- let's assume that a typo of the word "and" or "or" was slipped into the ordinance based on a hearing -- a hearing data input to the county commission, let's say, on any issue, and the way the ordinance was heard and approved had the word and, but when the ordinance was handed out to enforcement, it had the word or in it. I guess one would have to go all the way back to the exact minutes of that meeting to be able to confirm the fact that that "or" was supposed to have been an "and"? MR. ZACHARY: I think that's probably right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's a toughy, but that's a difference between legal and illegal is the word "and" and "or." MR. LLOYD: The problem there is one is a conjunction; one's a disjunction. And the "and" implies that everything as stated is Page 41 October 17, 2001 correct. The "or" says one of the items -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Exactly my point. And I -- I was made aware of an ordinance that -- during public hearing a while back -- it wasn't a licensing ordinance; it was a code ordinance. During a public hearing the word "and" was used. And when I saw the lie -- the ordinance, the word "or" was inserted, and it really can't even function that way. But how far back and how hard do I have to go to make it happen? I was party to a public hearing about a year and a half ago, I guess, and then somebody showed me the ordinance. And I said, "No. That's not what we talked about." that's going to be a toughy, I guess. MR. DICKSON: That's part of every governing body. MR. NEALE: Legislatively, every legislature, be it the county commission or the Florida State legislature, goes through processes known as glitch bills or glitch ordinances where the State of Florida typically after the legislative session is over, when they get to the beginning of the next legislative session, one of the first pieces of legislation to go through is the glitch bill which goes through and finds all the "ands" that should have been "or's" and, you know, the "a's" that should have been "the's" and all of that and says, you know, four eight -- 49.11325 should have, you know, said this, should have said that, amended. So that's something that if it's caught, it should be brought to the attention probably of the county attorney's office, and they can propose a -- just a clarification bill. CHAIRMAN HAYES: At this point in time I'd have to go all the way back to that public hearing and request the minutes and have to read through about a 2-inch stack of minutes to get to that point to be able to prove that it was and/or or in the minutes. MR. NEALE: And, frankly, the other way to do it is if it makes no sense as it's written, statutory construction usually says that you Page 42 October 17, 2001 construct a statute in the way that makes sense as opposed to the way that doesn't make sense. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Could it be something that you could bring in front of the Code Enforcement Board and have them adopt a policy regarding that issue or something? MR. NEALE: They would -- if-- if it's in an ordinance itself, it probably would require the Code Enforcement Board to make a recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners to amend the ordinance to correct it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That may be the best route to go. MR. NEALE: That's probably your simplest route. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. NEALE: I do have one announcement to the happiness or chagrin of the members of this board, I have been retained by the county for-- to serve as your counsel for two more years, so you're stuck with me for two more years. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And I might add that, thank goodness. I'd hate to have to break in a new attorney. That would be quite a task. MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN HAYES: With the history that we go back through and the recommendations and changes and -- and policy, procedural changes that we have adopted and -- since Mr. Neale's been with us, it would be real tough to start over again, wouldn't it. MS. PAHL: How long have you been with us? MR. NEALE: I think my whole life. MS. PAHL: Just seems that way. MR. NEALE: I actually think it's -- I've got the date in here. I think it's ninety -- '95. I started December '95 so -- MS. PAHL: You almost have tenure. MR. NEALE: I will. IfI keep doing this -- well, I don't get a Page 43 October 17, 2001 pension. I'll keep doing this. CHAIRMAN HAYES: MR. DICKSON: Yeah. rough cases in here. You might want to lobby the union. It was a rough year. We had some MR. NEALE: It's always a challenging -- challenging assignment. I truly enjoy working with this board. MR. DICKSON: Are you still traveling to Russia? MR. NEALE: Going in probably about a month. We've just discovered they've had a diptheria outbreak. MR. DICKSON: Oh, no. MS. WHITE: God. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Oh, gees. MR. CRAWFORD: We're still missing two seats on this board? MR. BARTOE: That's correct. MR. CRAWFORD: Two? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Two? But one seat left. MR. LLOYD: One here. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other update on those? MR. BARTOE: I have no update, no. I -- I attempted to call this morning but didn't get a return call yet. MR. NEALE: Did they get applicants or -- MR. BARTOE: That I'm trying to find out. MR. DICKSON: What are the categories? MR. BARTOE: I believe general contractor and engineer. However, that does not have to be. The only thing that has to be, according to our ordinance, is that -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Consumer. MR. BARTOE: Consumers, yes, three consumers. And the other positions are just recommended positions. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Uh-huh. MR. BARTOE: But they prefer, I believe, contractors in some Page 44 October 17, 2001 fields or engineers or architects. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other items of discussion? MR. DICKSON: I move that we adjourn. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, we're recommended -- we are aware of the fact that we're not having a meeting next month. MR. DICKSON: No? CHAIRMAN HAYES: That will be December the 19th. MR. BARTOE: And does any -- does anyone have a calendar with them to verify that the 19th is the third Wednesday? MR. NEALE: I just looked at it. I think it is. MS. PAHL: Yes, it is. And that's going to be a long meeting, isn't it? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes. That could be a pre-Christmas night's meeting. MR. LLOYD: MR. NEALE: Third Wednesday of December. Yes. Because, you remember Mr. Abbott's case is scheduled to come back for that -- MR. DICKSON: Is that also when the county is going to hold the Christmas party for us? MR. NEALE: Yeah. And when you get your bonuses. That's when you you-all get your-- MR. DICKSON: Our checks will be ready that day? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. I have a motion on the floor-- MR. NEALE: Before you close the hearing, just one more caution. And I know everybody heard it last time, but as to the Abbott case, no discussion with anyone about that case, either among yourselves or with any representative of either the county or Mr. Abbott or Mr. Abbott himself. That's a caution because you are sitting as a quasi-judicial body in that case. Go ahead. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion to adjourn. All in Page 45 October 17, 2001 favor. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. Done. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:23 a.m. CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD GARY HAYES, CHAIRMAN ATTEST: DWIGHT E. BROCK, CLERK These minutes approved by the Board on presented or as corrected ., as TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN COURT REPORTING, INC., BY BARBARA A. DONOVAN, RMR, CRR Page 46