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PVAC Minutes 07/10/2001 RJuly 1 O, 2001 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE PUBLIC VEHICLE ADVISORY COMMITTEE JULY 10, 2001 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Public Vehicle Advisory Committee, in and for the Collier County, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:06 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION at Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: VICE CHAIRMAN: ABSENT: Bryan L. S. Pease Clifford W. Flegal, Jr. Pat Baisley Eric Hyde William J. Csogi Tom Lugrin ALSO PRESENT: Maria Cruz, Code Enforcement Ekna Hu, Code Enforcement Tom Palmer, Assistant County Attorney Page 1 July 1 O, 2001 MS. MS. MR. MS. HU: Thomas Lugrin. is not here. Bryan Pease. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Advisory Committee roll call please. MS. HU: Ekna Hu, code enforcement. BAISLEY: Here. HU: Clifford Flegal. FLEGAL: Here. Call the meeting to order. Public Vehicle Patricia Baisley. Let the record show Thomas Lugrin CHAIRMAN PEASE: Here. MS. HU: William Csogi. MR. CSOGI: Here. MS. HU: Eric Hyde. MR. HYDE: Here. CHAIRMAN PEASE: If we have anyone requesting to speak other than those that are already up for approval, either taxi or charter service, the slips are outside, and you turn those to the court reporter, please. We will put that in the discussion section at the end of the meeting. Any new business? I skipped a little bit, but I'll come back. Corporate Cab, that's one item for new business. Right? MS. HU: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let me go back to any other additions or deletions. MS. CRUZ: We do have a request from Corporate Cab, Mr. Graham, for a change in color schemes. That's Maria Cruz for the record. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'll plug that into new business. Do we have an approval of the agenda? MS. BAISLEY: I'll make a motion that we approve the agenda. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Pat Baisley moves. Do we have a second? Page 2 July 1 O, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: CHAIRMAN PEASE: (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: (No response.) I'll second. All those in favor say aye. Opposed. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carried. Let's go ahead and tackle the new business item, and then we'll do the charter service review. We have a request for a change of color. Is there anybody else that has a color similar to this? MS. CRUZ: No, sir. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is that orange and white? Is that what that is, or red and white -- orange and white? MS. CRUZ: Orange and white. MS. BAISLEY: What does he mean when he says that he's going to begin this with the new taxis? Does that mean there'll be existing taxis that are still in the other color? MS. HU: He wants to continue to keep his color scheme of the only two taxis that he has, which are brown, and the new taxis that he's going to be purchasing get them in that color scheme, white and orange. MR. FLEGAL: Does he have two different types of taxis running around town? Is that what you're telling us? MS. HU: You mean two different color schemes or -- MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MS. HU: No. He only has one color scheme as of now. MS. CRUZ: Yes. His request is to add an additional color scheme to the same company. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Did he say when he thought he would be retiring the other cabs that are in the older color? MS. CRUZ: He does not -- those are not his intentions. His intentions are to keep the old color scheme and add this color Page 3 July 1 O, 2001 MR. CSOGI: deny that, though? have one color? scheme. In other words, he would have the same company with two color schemes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is there anyone from Corporate Cab here today? MS. CRUZ: No, sir. MR. FLEGAL: I wouldn't recommend such a thing. I mean, hypothetically you could have ten cabs, and they could all be different colors at that rate. That's not the purpose. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think it opens the Pandora's box. Is there anything in the bylaws that say you can Is there anything in there that says you have to MR. FLEGAL: No. But we have the right to deny a color scheme if presented, and we've already approved one color scheme for a company. Now that same company wants to add a color scheme. That to me is unacceptable. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I would not have a problem approving if he wanted to change color schemes. MR. FLEGAL: True. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And I think if we could let, you know, him know that intention that if it was presented in that format that we would be probably favorable to it. Do we need a motion or anything or just -- MR. FLEGAL: I think we ought to. I'd make the motion that we deny the request to add the additional color scheme. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Could we also add a clause to that amendment? Would you be open to stating that if he desired to go to one -- the new color scheme on all his vehicles that it's approved? MR. FLEGAL: No. I'd like him to resubmit it just to make sure we're getting all the taxis. I don't like approving a color in advance. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Do we have a motion? Do we Page 4 July 1 O, 2001 have a second? MR. HYDE: I'd second that motion. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All those in favor, aye. MS. BAISLEY: Aye. MR. FLEGAL: Aye. MR. CSOGI: Aye. MR. HYDE: Aye. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Opposed, aye. Motion carries. On to the matter at hand. We have a request to operate a charter service, Rhonda Machado -- I hope I pronounced that properly -- doing business as All Aboard Airport Transportation. Is there anyone from that company here? MR. MOON: Good morning. James Moon on behalf of All Aboard Airport Transportation and Rhonda Machado. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Could you be sworn in, please. (The oath was administered.) MR. MOON: I am the attorney representing Ms. Machado and All Aboard Airport Transportation. I don't know if you've been handed the application checklist in the packet for Ms. Machado. What's missing on this matter is an updated credit report for Ms. Machado. That has been ordered through my office. We anticipated that we would have had it approximately about a week and a half ago. It's my experience that it takes about two to three weeks to get the credit report sent down to us when we submit these. I resubmitted another one last week. So that's the last thing in the process of getting this application completed. It would be our request to the board that the licensure be approved given the infrequency with which the board meets, however, that license not be issued until our office is able to actually hand you the credit report. And it has been ordered. I would anticipate it any day. It has been at this point, I think, two and a half Page 5 July 1 O, 2001 weeks, if I'm not mistaken, because I talked to Ms. Cruz about it. MS. CRUZ: I believe so. MR. MOON: Our concern is the infrequency with which the board meets to delay it three to four months simply for a credit report. CHAIRMAN PEASE: This board has a past precedent of doing what you're requesting given that there's not a substantial number of items that are -- MR. MOON: I understand that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- need to be addressed. MS. BAISLEY: I didn't see a criminal record check for Brian Cline in my packet. MR. MOON: There is an updated articles of incorporation. Mr. Cline actually left the corporation and the articles have been submitted to the State of Florida, and it's just a matter of a stamped copy that needs to be returned to us. So the application is actually based on Ms. Machado. I believe we let Ms. Cruz know this some time ago. MS. BAISLEY: And this application is dated in September of 2000. Is there any reason why it took so long to do that? MR. MOON: Yes, ma'am. We've been working on this diligently. We submitted it, and then there's some confusion about some other documents that needed to be submitted. We've had some trouble with the client getting some papers from them, but we have been working with Ms. Cruz, and we finally got all the papers that we needed and were able to get it in front of this board. I think the last time the board met, if I'm not mistaken, they got the papers to my office four or five days after the deadline date to submit the packet. And we gave them to Ms. Cruz, however, it was after the deadline date to even give the packet to the board which bounces back to this board hearing now. MS. BAISLEY: All Aboard Airport Transportation has had Page 6 July 1 O, 2001 vehicles in operation? MR. MOON: What's that? MS. BAISLEY: All Aboard Airport Transportation has had vehicles in operation? MR. MOON: There is a company that was called All Aboard. I believe that was previously in operation by a -- her name escapes me now. She did have licensures. I believe she voluntarily surrendered those licenses approximately four or five months ago; is that correct? MS. CRUZ: That is correct, and the name was All Aboard Transportation. It was for a different owner. MR. MOON: That's correct. MS. BAISLEY: I still see vehicles running around with All Aboard Transportation with passengers in them. MR. MOON: Okay. That I'm not aware of. Then perhaps that might be the same person that's doing it. My client actually does not have her vehicles running at this point. I would have to wager a guess that that would be the All Aboard Transportation that the other individual that has a name similar to this. MS. BAISLEY: She's not even in this area anymore I don't think. MR. MOON: That I'm not sure of. We have pending litigation against her on another matter, my office does, so I would say that, yes, she probably is in this area. That's a separate matter from the license. MR. FLEGAL: I didn't see in the file an approval by the state of the name All Aboard Airport Transporation, Inc. Is there such a document? MR. MOON: Yes. It has been approved. I have the documents in my file in my office. It has been approved. We went through the publication process and submitted the fictitious name, and the fictitious name was approved. If necessary we can supplement the Page 7 July 1 O, 2001 file. I know that's not one of the requirements, I don't believe, on the checklist, but we can supplement the file if necessary. MR. FLEGAL: How many vehicles? MR. MOON: If I'm not mistaken, its four vehicles would be listed. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It shows three. MR. MOON: Three. I'm sorry. Three vehicles, that's correct, three vehicles. MR. FLEGAL: And I have an insurance certificate that was given this morning for two vehicles. MR. MOON: The third one is insured. It was purchased about a month ago -- month and a half ago and the updated -- I can update the insurance certificate. I thought I had given insurance on all of them. They all are insured, though. MR. FLEGAL: And you're stating that Ms. Machado is now 100 percent owner? MR. MOON: That's correct. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other comments or questions? Do we have a motion? MR. HYDE: I've got a question. Pat, if you're saying that you've seen the vehicles that are actually out there on the street and they're running around under the same name, and we go ahead and we approve this, we would have the obligation to obviously have a cease and desist from the other people that no longer have a certificate in effect that are carrying passengers at the same time approving one that would have. I don't know if that puts us in any kind of quandry, so to speak. I mean, if you've got one that is still currently operating, whether it's legal or whether it's not or hasn't been approved by the board and actually turned in their certificates, but they're still operating a business, and we go ahead and approve another one pending further information that your office will provide, Page 8 July 10, 2001 then I think there may be an issue there. We've got two companies in the same name, and who knows who's doing what. MR. MOON: Actually, it's two companies with the separate names. One is All Aboard Transportation and one is All Aboard Airport Transportation. Okay. I know there could be some confusion caused MR. HYDE: MR. MOON: there. MR. HYDE: MR. MOON: Right. That's part of the litigation on the other side of-- if necessary, I'll get into what's going on with that, but we did exactly that. We're trying to tell them, "Stop running your taxis if you are doing it under this name. You surrendered your documents to the board. You shouldn't even be running taxis at this point." And we have a registered fictitious name that conflicts with ours. It's my understanding that that other name was never even registered appropriately with Tallahassee, and we put them on notice that if they're going to continue using this name, well, then it's going to end up in a lawsuit and force them to stop using that name. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Did you go to code enforcement and discuss the fact that they were operating taxis without proper -- MR. MOON: No, I haven't. MS. CRUZ: If I may add, this is new to us. We didn't know that All Aboard was out there. The existing -- the preexisting company they did surrender their licenses and they turned them into us. We don't even know if it's the same individual that came before this board and got MR. CSOGI: MR. MOON: MR. CSOGI: application tie in with the old company? approved. I got a question for you. Yes, sir. How does the existing company that's got the I'd like to know that. And Page 9 July 1 O, 2001 why do they pick a name so close? MR. MOON: What originally happened is I was approached by the client. They were going to purchase the business and add new cars. They were going to purchase new cars and purchase the existing business. When they were going through the process, the individual signed over her business, and it was going to amount to like a -- she would work and payoff the amount that way. She decided at some point to take the taxi certificates, and she turned them in. She then left to -- I believe it was the State of the Washington or something -- during that time there was several problems. She, in essence, stole the equipment that -- the new equipment that was purchased for the business, computers, things of that nature. She stole some checks that were coming in that belonged to the business. She also had some credit problems where it's my understanding she bounced several checks under that name. The person who was going in to buy the business explained to her, "Look, I'm not going to get stuck in something like this. I want to run a legitimate taxi service," because she ran a legitimate taxi service somewhere else. Up in Massachusetts she ran busing services and taxi services. So she told her, "I'm going to go ahead and start my own business." Based upon that, I believe, she turned in her certificates to Ms. Cruz, and at that point my client began the process back in September when things -- she was starting to find out more and more and more that wasn't disclosed to us originally. She started the process of starting her own company. MR. CSOGI: So it was your client that knowingly started the new company with a very similar name? MR. MOON: No. The agreement originally was to have the name changed to All Aboard Airport Transportation, and that was going to be reflected in the Yellow Pages ads. They would assume Page 10 July 1 O, 2001 their phone number. She had about a $4,000 phone debt. MR. CSOGI: I understand, so then when the deal went south she still said, "I'm going to open up my own company without buying this business, but I'm going to still keep a very similar name." So she knew that? MR. MOON: She had a business started about the same time things were surrendered and at the same time the other woman was closing her business. At that point we didn't feel it was a concern because the other business would be closed down; the new business would be started. She was already assuming this debt for her, already assuming the Yellow Page advertising, things of that nature. It was our understanding at that point she was just going to close her business and move out of the State of Florida, so we didn't feel it was going to be a concern. What happened in the interim is apparently she didn't feel like closing her business down. She turned in her certificates to Ms. Cruz and apparently wanted to keep operating. Since that time her incorporation status has been suspended by the State of Florida. Again, her name was never registered as a fictitious name, so that legally gives us the right to go in and register our name as the proper name, and thus the ensuing litigation to get her to stop using the name. MR. CSOGI: Okay. Thank you. MR. FLEGAL: Tom, from the committee's standpoint, since this other company surrendered their permits and are hypothetically now out of business as far as we're concerned, in approving this should we do that? MR. PALMER: Yes. I don't see any problem with that. MR. FLEGAL: We're under no -- MR. PALMER: No. That -- I think from our standpoint that other business should be considered to be nonexistent. Page 11 July 1 O, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: Okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And we should direct staff to follow up on why their car is running around already to see for sure that it's the former owner or if it's the current owner that's coming before us. MR. PALMER: I would recommend if possible -- I know they've got their priorities -- to maybe get a deputy sheriff out there and see what we can do about this. This is -- this is a traffic question as well as an authorization question. But the most direct way to get these people off the road might be to get a deputy sheriff to pull them over. This is not the kind of thing that works very well for code enforcement boards because it's kind of a transitory violation, comes and goes. It's not a status violation, but if, in fact, this person is out there operating this business uncertified, I think it behooves us as quickly as possible to stop it. Put a stop to it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: From a safety standpoint with not knowing the insurance issues and what other-- MR. PALMER: Well, it's just -- right now it sounds like this is just a rogue operation. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So would staff then interact with the sheriff's department on that? MR. PALMER: If possible. The thing about it is they've got a lot of priorities, and I don't think this is one of their high-priority items, but it seems if we're actually going to put a stop to this as expeditiously as possible, that may be the most direct route. MS. BAISLEY: And if we were to find out differently that, in fact, they were Ms. Machado's vehicles and not the prior owner of All Aboard Transportation, what would that affect? MR. PALMER: Well, then you've got a situation of her operating this business without being certificated, however, Mr. Moon has just stated to us under oath that that is, in fact, not happening and these are not Ms. Machado's vehicles. Page 12 July 1 O, 2001 MR. MOON: That's correct. Ms. Machado is not running her vehicles. I made it very clear to her. She understood that if in the event she was to be caught at one of the airports -- I know the airport authority cracks down on them, especially here in Naples -- that if she was caught, odds are she would be denied a license based upon that. She understood that. So if she is doing it, it is without my knowledge. I think she clearly understands that she's not to be doing it, and I would say she is not doing it. I've had extensive conversations with her where she knows she's not supposed to be doing anything like that. Pat, have you actually seen the vehicle with MR. PALMER: passengers in it? MS. BAISLEY: MR. PALMER: I have. Because I was thinking it was possible that they're just riding the vehicle around as a personal vehicle, but you're saying they are transporting people? MS. BAISLEY: Right. And I've also been confronted in situations within my business where somebody had mentioned to me that they'd gotten a quote that was less than mine from All Aboard Transportation for services. MR. PALMER: Have you got the wherewithal to contact the sheriff's office when you find this vehicle on the road instanter and get in touch with the sheriff's office by phone? MS. BAISLEY: I believe I have been told that you have to catch them in the act actually picking up the passengers or with the passengers with them, and it's just very difficult. MR. PALMER: Well, the thing about it is if you could call the deputy sheriff and say these people are on 41 heading north, that's the most direct way to try to catch them. MS. BAISLEY: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is this recent, Pat? Page 13 July 10, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: Within the last six months. MR. FLEGAL: We're really sidetracked. We're here to approve a permit for another company, and we're way off base. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I understand, but at the same -- this is going to be a twofold statement here; it's not just going to be the approval. We're going to also be directing staff. We just want to make sure we direct staff in the proper way but they understand clearly what -- what this committee wants. But this is recent.'? MS. BAISLEY: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. All right. Any other questions or comments? Do we have a motion? MR. HYDE: I make the motion that we approve pending the final -- MR. MOON: The credit report. MR. HYDE: -- the credit report coming back and also to direct staff to investigate specifically with the Collier County Sheriff the other company that is currently operating and if, in fact, there is a conflict of interest between the two, or that Ms. Marchado is actually operating those vehicles or if we determine that through the sherift~s office, then this entire process would be denied and the license would be denied and you would have to come back before the board. Subject to that I think we can approve. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I have a motion by Mr. Hyde. Do we have a second? MS. CRUZ: May I interject for a second, please? Staff will go ahead and investigate the process of the so-called illegal operation of All Aboard Transportation. Also I have a couple items here that I think we mentioned through the -- the process of the review of the application, the updated corporate records. I think we're going to need that before we issue the certificate, the approval of the name, insurance certificate, and also leases for the vehicles because I notice Page 14 July 1 O, 2001 the vehicles are registered to Ms. Machado and not to the company. So I would like to make sure that the record -- that shows on record. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Mr. Hyde, are you open to modifying your motion to include those items? MR. HYDE: Yes, I would. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we have a second? MR. CSOGI: I'll second that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All those in favor say aye. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carried. MR. MOON: If I could just double-check. I'm sorry. There was the leases, insurance, credit report and -- MR. PALMER: Updated articles. MR. MOON: The articles, okay. Submit those to Ms. Cruz? CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's correct. MR. MOON: Thank you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Next item is Max Weinberg doing business as Max Limousine. Is Mr. Weinberg here? Please come forward to be sworn in. (The oath was administered.) MR. WEINBERG: And for the record, it's Maximum Limousine. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Maximum, okay. Thank you for that correction. MR. FLEGAL: There are three vehicles involved, Mr. Weinberg? MR. WEINBERG: Yes, sir. MS. HU: I would like to add that the vehicles do need -- the vehicle registrations need leases. You need leases on the vehicles. Page 15 July 1 O, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: I see three vehicles, and they're all registered to three different people. MS. BAISLEY: And one of the vehicles is a 16-passenger vehicle. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let's -- right. What's -- what's -- tell me more about the 16-passenger. What do -- what do you have there? MR. WEINBERG: It is a limousine coach. It was made by Crystal Coach. It will move 16 people. It looks like an airport shuttle bus, but it is actually a limousine on the inside. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's a 25-foot -- MR. WEINBERG: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- roughly. That does not fall under our umbrella. You do not need approval for that. MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I did not know that. MS. HU: Also the vehicles need to be registered in commercial -- as commercial vehicles. They are not as of now. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Questions, comments? MS. BAISLEY: You currently do not have any lettering on these vehicles? MR. WEINBERG: No. in the front stating our name. There is no -- other than license plate The purpose of being here today is we have done several airport trips where we take people from the Fort Myers airport, RSW, to Naples. We would like to comply and get a proper licensing so we can return those people back from Collier County to the Fort Myers Airport. Currently we are not licensed to do that. Therefore, we allow -- we tell the people that we are not licensed to do that. We cannot provide that service. So we were hoping to comply with all of the rules and regulations so that we will be able to do that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other questions, comments? Do we have a motion for approval? Page 16 July 1 O, 2001 MR. HYDE: I make a motion that we approve, again, pending the commercial vehicles -- or the registration be changed to a commercial vehicle registration and also that we provide staff with the proper leases for the vehicles back to the name of the corporation. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion made by Mr. Hyde. Do we have a second? MS. BAISLEY: I'll second that motion. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Second by Patricia Baisley. All in favor say aye. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: All opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carried. Good luck. MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Next item for business is Ivett Havasi -- I hope I pronounced that properly -- doing business as Naples Express Transportation Services for a charter service. Did I pronounce your name properly? MS. HAVASI: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Would you please be sworn in. (The oath was administered.) COURT REPORTER: Would you state your name for the record. MS. HAVASI: Ivett Havasi. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Did you receive a copy of the agenda for spelling? Okay. MR. FLEGAL: How many vehicles do you plan to have? MS. HAVASI: We actually have one right now and would like to purchase two more. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is the car currently going to be out of your house -- your residence or -- okay. So you're aware that when Page 17 July 1 O, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: MS. HAVASI: MR. FLEGAL: insurance. CHAIRMAN PEASE: you have more than one vehicle you look for a commercial? MS. HAVASI: Yes. MR. FLEGAL: Is your current business -- is this a condominium, or is it-- MS. HAVASI: It's an apartment complex. Is operating this business out of there allowed? Yes. Okay. They have no vehicle registration, no You're speaking on the record? MR. FLEGAL: Yes. I don't see no insurance, no vehicle registration. She stated they already have one vehicle so ... MS. HAVASI: I actually have both of those. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Could you speak up, please. MS. HAVASI: I have both-- I have the registration and I have insurance. I just have to change it to commercial insurance because it is under my name as of now. MS. CRUZ: I have a question for counsel. What is the -- under the articles of incorporation, what does the incorporator mean? MR. PALMER: That's an individual who actually files the articles of incorporation. MS. CRUZ: No interest in the corporation? MR. PALMER: May have not necessarily. They often are the president, but they can actually be totally unrelated, like an attorney or an agent on behalf or some representative. They are just recognized by the State of Florida as the person that's putting the corporation together. MS. CRUZ: Thank you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other questions, comments? Do we have a motion? MR. HYDE: Okay. I make a motion. Page 18 July 10, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: Sure do. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We didn't tell you it was your day. MR. HYDE: Why didn't you just say so. I make a motion that we approve pending that we -- staff receives the proper registration changed over as well as the insurance to a commercial also in the name of the corporation for the said vehicle and also that we notify staff should the purchase of additional vehicles be necessary to a commercial location with a commercial phone number. MR. PALMER: And there's, I think-- there's one issue. Are these going to be leased to the corporation or are they going to be titled in the name of the corporation? MS. HAVASI: I actually want to title them in the name of the corporation. MR. PALMER: Okay. That's fine. Then we won't need leases. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We have a motion by Mr. Hyde. Do we have a second? MS. BAISLEY: I'll second that motion. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Second-- why not-- by Pat Baisley. MS. BAISLEY: Of course, the two of us. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All those in favor say aye. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carried. Good luck. MS. HAVASI: Thank you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Next item of business, Jeffrey and Laurie Krum doing business as Freedom Providers, Inc. Be sworn in, please. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: State your name, please. MR. KRUM: My name's Jeffrey Krum. Page 19 July 1 O, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: Thank you very much. Is Class 31 the same as 9? MS. BAISLEY: I think it is, isn't it? MS. CRUZ: It is. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It is. MS. BAISLEY: I think the vehicle-for-hire listing is incorrect. It shouldn't have T for taxi. They should be under charter service vehicles. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Correct. MR. FLEGAL: Tom, on one of his vehicle registrations, it's made out to the company or Mr. Krum. Is that a problem, I mean -- MR. KRUM: You mean which one? Is that the Caravan? MR. FLEGAL: The '96 Dodge. MR. KRUM: That's how they did it. I told them to put it in the company name, and they -- that's how they did it. MR. FLEGAL: Freedom Providers or-- MR. KRUM: Yeah. It's Freedom Providers or me. MR. PALMER: That -- that would allow the endorsement of that title by either him as an individual or in the corporate name. It's like a check, you know, to John or Mary. I don't know that it has any particular legal significance from our perspective. I do notice that the occupational license is listed to a partnership. MR. KRUM: Yeah. We just turned over into a corporation the beginning of June. MR. PALMER: You might want to let them -- I don't think it's all that critical, but with that minor respect the occupational license application is incorrect. MR. KRUM: Oh, okay. MR. PALMER: In fact, it's going to be held by a corporate entity. I don't know that it has any particular moment from our perspective, but I just noted that. Page 20 July 1 O, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: Do you have an office in the Naples area yet? MR. KRUM: We got a P.O. Box. Our main office is in Cape Coral. We're in Lee County, but as we get bigger-- we've only been in business eight months -- as we get bigger, we'll -- either going to bring an office down here or get an office on the border of Fort Myers and Bonita. We may never have an office down here, and our vehicles would be kept up in that area. MS. BAISLEY: You still need to have an office -- a central place of business in Collier County. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. Tom, didn't we decide a long time ago that P.O. Boxes weren't it? MR. PALMER: That's correct. No. We need a place where a repository of records relevant to Collier County, as well as you need to be contacted by just -- somebody making a local phone call from Collier County needs to be able to contact you for service. MR. KRUM: Yeah. We've got a phone number up in -- MR. PALMER: Okay. Do you have a place where you keep records relative to the business in Collier County in Collier County? MR. KRUM: No. MR. PALMER: Okay. They have an ordinance that requires that, and a P.O. Box I understand will not allow you to keep these kind of records in there on any kind of long-term basis, so you need something like a safe deposit box or some other place. MR. KRUM: We can get a safe deposit box at, like, a bank or something like that. MR. PALMER: That would work. MR. KRUM: We could go and do that. I'd be willing to go and get a safe deposit box at a bank. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And use that to put records related to Naples transfers. MR. KRUM: Yeah. That's not a problem. Page 21 July 1 O, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we have any other questions or comments? Mr. Hyde, would you like to make a motion? MR. HYDE: Yes. Obviously, I make a motion to approve pending that we have a location. You stated that A, No. 1, that there is a location for a phone number for Collier County residents in order to provide service for the company. MR. KRUM: Yeah. MR. HYDE: And also that we provide a place for the actual corporate records as well as the transfer records for -- in case they're needed by staff for any transfers that occur within Collier County. MR. KRUM: I need -- so I need a phone number for down here? MR. PALMER: No. You just need -- the people need to be able to contact you by making a local phone call. As long as it's not a long distance phone call for people to try to get your service in Collier County, you're fine. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You can call forward that to wherever you want. MR. KRUM: Oh, so I can just get them a phone number down here and have it forwarded up to my number up there. Okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion by Mr. Hyde. Do we have a second? MS. BAISLEY: Second. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Second by Pat Baisley. All those in favor say aye. (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Opposed. (No response:) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carried. Good luck. MR. KRUM: Thank you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Next item is Sandra Shriner doing Page 22 July 10, 2001 business as S.L.S. Unlimited. Will you step forward and be sworn in. (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: My question relates to charter. She's requesting a charter approval, and her fare is based on a per-mile charge. MS. SHRINER: I wasn't quite sure how to do that. I guess by zone would be the more correct way. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is that -- is that even -- is that allowable under our ordinance, Mr. Palmer? MR. PALMER: I don't think it's prohibited. If I may recollect right, the people can set whatever rates they want with regard to charter service business, can't they? MS. CRUZ: That's correct, and it wouldn't have to be approved. MR. PALMER: And it's just a matter of reading it on the speedometer. MR. CSOGI: Can it not be below taxicab rates, though? MR. PALMER: It can be whatever-- it can be whatever the market will bear. MR. CSOGI: It can be below taxicab rates? MR. PALMER: Sure. It could be. What a bargain. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And no accountability -- and no accountability other than the speedometer. MR. PALMER: Well, people have a general idea how far they're going, and if they know they're going ten miles and they get charged $60, they're going to raise heck with the driver. MR. FLEGAL: No. But in a charter service if she wanted to charge $10 to go from here to Fort Myers, that's her privledge. MR. PALMER: Exactly. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, you know, if she wants to lose money, we can't regulate that. MR. PALMER: We do not. The ordinance does not. Page 23 July 1 O, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: That's what I thought. MS. HU: I would like to add -- I'm looking at the ordinance here, and on page 15 it states that, (as read) "No charter service vehicle operator shall transport or offer to transport any passengers under any rates except its regular charter service rates which rates shall not be prorated, discounted, divided, or otherwise reduced so as to resemble any taxicab rates." I don't know if because she's charging per mile -- MR. CSOGI: So if she were to take a airport fare she has to charge $2 per mile because that's what she's establishing as a rate. MR. PALMER: And she has a minimum fare of $5. MR. CSOGI: Okay. MR. PALMER: The purpose of the sentence that was just read is so that people do not at certain times of the day or week basically change their rates to compete with taxicab service. If somebody wants to have this kind of a rate as a continuum rate while they do business and not drop down, that's fine. The idea is, you know, when times gets tough, you can't reduce your charter service rates and start effectively giving a taxicab service. MR. FLEGAL: I didn't see in my package an experience statement. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's -- I think it's stated how many years she drove for Checker -- for USA Cab, was it? MS. HU: It's on page 3 of the packet, No. 8. MR. FLEGAL: Just says she's currently driving for USA Taxi. How long was your experience in transporting people? MS. SHRINER: I've just been doing it part time mainly to learn the town of Naples. I just recently moved here. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other questions, comments? MR. FLEGAL: On the criminal background check, I see two checks, one on Shriner and one in Stennett. What about Cole? Page 24 July 1 O, 2001 Because I see stuff listed for Cole which I assume was her name at one time. MS. CRUZ: We can obtain one if that's the board's desire. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other questions? MR. FLEGAL: Since she used that name, we need to do that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other questions, comments? Do we have a motion? MR. HYDE: I make a motion that we approve pending the background check under the name of Cole which was prior, and that's it. I think that's it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion by Mr. Hyde. Do we have a second? MS. BAISLEY: I'll second that motion. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Second by Pat Baisley. All those in favor say "aye." MR. HYDE: Aye. MR. FLEGAL: Aye. MR. CSOGI: Aye. MS. BAISLEY: Aye. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Opposed. Aye, just on the basis of the rate structure. Motion carries. Good luck. MS. SHRINER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Next item is -- this is where I usually turn it over to Pat on the -- Riste Gusterov, I hope is the correct pronunciation. Is that person here -- doing business as Rimaco Corp. Doing business as Vergina. MR. VLASHO: Mr. Gusterov is not here, but Lou Vlasho is here, and it is Rimaco, and the restaurant is -- the name is Vergina. COURT REPORTER: Could you spell your name, please. MR. VLASHO: V-l-a-s-h-o, L-o-u first name. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Be sworn in, please. Page 25 July 1 O, 2001 (The oath was administered.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: What is your relationship? MR. VLASHO: I am the vice president, secretary, and treasurer of Rimaco. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Thank you. MR. FLEGAL: Tom, is it -- insurance certificate is made out to the restaurant, and nowhere does it say on there anything about this corporation Rimaco. MR. PALMER: No. I don't think that's evidence of the fact that these vehicles are covered by this policy. MS. BAISLEY: I think this is the same discussion that we had in our workshop about the insurance being in the name of the certificate holder. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. That's why I asked the question. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm getting confused on who is Asan Pajtondziev. MR. VLASHO: He will be our chauffeur driver. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So the work experience is on the driver, not the owner? MR. VLASHO: MR. FLEGAL: Correct. And that's -- as I understand it, Tom, the requirements are that work experience is on the applicant? MR. PALMER: I'm not aware of any minimum work experience requirements; are there? MS. CRUZ: I believe it's under the applicant for the applicant. MR. FLEGAL: I thought that's what the ordinance said. MR. PALMER: What sort of minimum requirements are there? I mean, where are these, Maria? MR. FLEGAL: I mean, I just didn't see a letter that he has any, so I guess that's my question. The applicant has no experience since he didn't submit any. There's no letter here, so I assume he has zero Page 26 July 10, 2001 experience in transporting people. MR. VLASHO: Correct. That would be the management, but the driver MR. PALMER: does. MR. VLASHO: The driver does. The driver does. That's why we submitted the driver. This will operate as a division of Rimaco. MR. PALMER: What sort of corporate, I mean, business practices does Rimaco engage in? MR. VLASHO: It has two currently. One, it owns and operates Vergina fine Italian dining restaurant on Fifth Avenue 700. It manages the 700 Building and will be in the limo business and other endeavors as time goes on. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What's -- what's on page 22 of the ordinance, Item-- MR. FLEGAL: Item 8. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Eight, the experience of the applicant in the transportation of passengers in the form of a typewritten and signed experience statement. MR. PALMER: But does it have some sort of minimal prerequisite requirements in experience? MR. FLEGAL: No. But we don't have any statements saying, "I have zero experience "or" I have a hundred years experience." MR. PALMER: I see. They could testify to the relevant information. MR. FLEGAL: Go back. I think it's on the same page. Also on page 22, Item 13, we have in here a credit report from somebody named Budd who is a director, and the ordinance states we're supposed to have a credit report on the applicant. MR. VLASHO: The-- MR. FLEGAL: The applicant is 100 percent owner, so having something on a director means absolutely nothing. Page 27 July 10, 2001 MR. VLASHO: The -- the owner is a resident of Macedonia, owns property here in the United States through several corporations, and we submitted a letter from his bank that in previous instances -- especially with the liquor board -- was sufficient indicating his wherewithal and his relationship with a bank in Switzerland. And that's the best we could get for him, and we thought it might suffice. MR. FLEGAL: I'm not questioning. I'm just saying the ordinance just says a current credit report compiled for the applicant by a nationally recognized credit agency, and this committee can't eliminate any of these words because we can't change the ordinance. Well, in that context is the applicant the MR. PALMER: corporation.'? MR. BAISLEY: MR. PALMER: MR. VLASHO: Yes. Well, does the corporation have a credit report? We learned on June 29th -- 28th that that was required, and we submitted a request for it. MR. PALMER: We need -- we need to get a credit report on Rimaco Corporation. MR. FLEGAL: And if it's been in business for less than a year it states that you get it on the owner. Fine. The business has been in existence more MR. PALMER: than a year, I take it? MR. VLASHO: MR. PALMER: Yes. Then they should be able to in due course supply Maria with a credit report for the corporation. MR VLASHO: formed. MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: Check the documents of when Rimaco was Let's see. It was -- February 24th, 2000, it was filed. Which date was that? It's about 15, 16 months ago. Page 28 July 1 O, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: February 24th, so and we need-- MR. VLASHO: That's on its way. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MR. CSOGI: I've got a question in relationship to the restaurant that is owned by the same corporation. Are you going to operate a charter service in Collier County, or is this solely for the use of their restaurant? Are you going to have it sit out front? If somebody wants a limo ride home, you're going to have a car sitting out front? MR. VLASHO: Yes and no. It will operate as a full limo service available to anyone that wants to hire it, and it will be available to the restaurant patrons. MR. CSOGI: So you will have a car sitting out front? MR. VLASHO: Yeah. The car. We have one limo. MR. CSOGI: You are aware that if somebody walks up to that car and wants a ride, they can get a ride. MR. VLASHO: Yup. We also will use it for VIP guests of the restaurant as we see fit. MR. FLEGAL: In the articles of incorporation, you state that there's one director, Mr. Budd. In the application you have three directors listed. Is there -- is there a change or-- MR. VLASHO: There was -- when the corporation was originally formed, it was formed by David Budd, our attorney. Subsequent to that it was reorganized, and the sole director is Mr. and Mr. Starman are assistant secretary, and the treasurer. They're only-- there's only one Gusterov. Mr. Budd other one is assistant director of that corporation. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. something that shows that? Is there an amendment to the articles or MR. VLASHO: It was included here. It was submitted. MR. PALMER: Actually, the corporate charter allows an amendment and a number of directors by bylaws. It's common Page 29 July 1 O, 2001 practice not to have to go back to the State of Florida to make those kinds of changes. And Article VII, Roman numeral seven, on page 204 allows these kinds of things to be done by amendments to the corporation's bylaws. MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: MR. VLASHO: MR. PALMER: MR. VLASHO: MR. PALMER: covered, Maria? MS. MR. MS. MR. Okay. What did we resolve on the insurance issue? Made out to the wrong company. The -- I need to see that. The only-- the only -- this here. You're fine. They're talking about the insurance. Does the insurance reflect that the vehicle is CRUZ: I'm looking. PALMER: That's the issue. CRUZ: Give me a second, please. FLEGAL: The certificate that they gave us today says the insured is the Vergina, the restaurant. Nowhere on this piece of paper does it say anything about Rimaco. So if the corporation is Rimaco and that's where the vehicle is, they don't have any insurance. The corporation is Rimaco; the d/b/a is MR. VLASHO: Vergina. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. But you're getting a permit under Rimaco, so you got to have insurance under them. MR. VLASHO: I'm a little surprised because we did not tag the vehicle until we had insurance and -- let me find it. MS. insurance MR. MS. MS. MR. CRUZ: Mr. Chairman, I cannot locate a certificate of in this packet. FLEGAL: That thing you just gave us this morning. CRUZ: We have not seen that. BAISLEY: You gave it to us. FLEGAL: It's in your package that you handed out this Page 30 July 1 O, 2001 morning. MR. VLASHO: The certificate of-- does show the insured as Vergina which is d/b/a of Rimaco. That can be changed easily enough. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. That's what I'm saying. It's -- I don't know, Mr. Palmer. MR. PALMER: I don't have that document. Does it purport to be automobile insurance? MR. FLEGAL: It's in this package they just gave out this morning. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Did you get a packet from them, staff?. MR. PALMER: I don't think I did on that one. Oh, okay. It's just unusual in my experience that they give -- they issue a policy to a fictitious name. I think that's unusual. I'm not sure that it's illegal, but it's curious. MR. FLEGAL: I just get gun shy when you insurance in somebody else's name and you're giving a permit to this person over here. MR. PALMER: Yeah. It would be -- it would be preferable that this be in the name of Vergina Corporation or Rimaco Corporation. MR. VLASHO: I agree with you. I'm surprised I didn't note it before. It needs to be changed. MR. FLEGAL: You know -- you know what insurance companies and lawyers do when something's in the wrong name. MR. PALMER: Well, I know that insurance companies when they get a serious claim and they have an opportunity to deny coverage on a technicality. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other questions or comments? Do I have a motion? MR. HYDE: I make a motion we approve pending the Page 31 July 1 O, 2001 following: We receive a -- or have staff or turn in to staff a credit report on either the applicant or for the corporation if it's been in business for over one year; a certified letter with experience or no experience of the driver or actually of the owner; and also that the insurance be changed over to Rimaco versus what it is currently. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion by Mr. Hyde. Do we have a second? MS. BAISLEY: I'll second the motion. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Second by Pat Baisley. All those in favor say "aye." (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carried. Good luck. MR. VLASHO: Thank you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Old business, review of Hummeride, Inc., license. We didn't approve the minutes? Okay. Let's go back and approve the minutes. I thank you vice chair. Do I have a motion to approve the minutes of April 2, May 7, and June 19? MR. CSOGI: I'll make the motion we approve. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That a way. Motion by Mr. Csogi. Do we have a second? MR. FLEGAL: I'll second. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Second. All those in favor say "aye." (Unanimous response.) MS. HU: I'm sorry. I would like to interrupt. On the 19th-- the minutes for the 19th, it shows record to be a regular meeting, and it was a workshop. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. Motion carried. MR. CSOGI: Which date was that? CHAIRMAN PEASE: On the 19th-- June 19th. Review of Page 32 July 1 O, 2001 Hummeride, Inc., license, old business. Staffhave an update? MS. CRUZ: No. The reason we brought this before the board is to receive direction from the board as to what action to take on this particular issue. We did notify Mr. Scallan to let him know that this item was being brought before this board today as discussion as to whether we can allow him to keep his license or not because of-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Did you review the background -- I'm sorry to interrupt -- can you review the background, please. MS. CRUZ: The background is that he came before this board and he got approved. During that meeting he was questioned if-- if the advertisement, if he was going to do -- I believe he -- he stated that he was going to provide advertisement other than his business. And he was told that he could not do that. Well, he did after he got his license, and all that we have proof that he started advertising other businesses, and we notified him to cease that operation, and he continued. Well, because one of the board members -- we brought this issue back to you to make a decision or to direct staff on what action to take to cancel or revoke his license. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is it staffs opinion that he is not in compliance at this point? MS. CRUZ: If you look at his letterhead, he is advertising. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. The most recent response shows advertising. MS. CRUZ: MR. CSOGI: He's providing advertising. In addition, there was a newspaper article Mr. Flegal brought in that showed a picture of him advertising going down Fifth Avenue, I think. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. That's somewhat dated now, though, but it verifies with -- his letterhead is certainly current. MR. CSOGI: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Did you see a copy of that at the Page 33 July 10, 2001 workshop, Mr. Palmer? MR. PALMER: I have a copy of this letter here. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PEASE: What's -- by what means was he noticed of the -- of the fact that this matter would be on today's agenda? MS. CRUZ: We sent him a notice. We also sent him a notice of violation requesting him to cease and desist that operation. MR. PALMER: Well, what I'm saying is have you got proof that, in fact, he received written notice that this matter would be on today's agenda? MS. CRUZ: No. I want to say that I remember that -- seeing a certified green card or receipt that he did receive the notice, but I am not 100 percent sure of it. MR. PALMER: But you did send it registered mail return receipt requested, and you got that back? MS. CRUZ: I believe we did, yes. MR. PALMER: Well, that's -- that's a fundamental prerequisite. MS. CRUZ: Because I believe that-- because of that letter that we sent him, he responded with this letter. MR. PALMER: Okay. The Notice to Show Cause, is that -- is that the document which told him that this matter would be on today's agenda? MS. CRUZ: That is correct. MR. PALMER: Do you have a copy of the Notice to Show Cause for the record? MS. CRUZ: Our notice? MR. PALMER: Yeah. MS. CRUZ: No, sir. Not with us. MR. PALMER: Well, I wish you would have contacted me. We ought to have -- know what, in fact, he was charged or what sort of notice he was given because the discussion has to be kept within Page 34 July 1 O, 2001 the parameters of the Notice to Show Cause. It's like a charging document, and I don't recommend taking any kind of action on the merits today with the scant record you have before you. And another thing is this -- this implies that, in fact, he is advertising on the vehicle, but it's not proof that he is. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Mr. Palmer, he lied under oath at his last meeting before this committee. MR. PALMER: I know -- I know -- I know that. The fact of the matter -- but we have evidence of-- of what violations about six or eight months ago. I don't know for a fact, nor has anybody said to me for a fact, that they know that this man is continuing to do this thing in the last four or five months. We don't have -- to my knowledge at least -- proof that, in fact, he's doing this concurrently. MR. CSOGI: So you can get away with it one time, and then the board has direction -- we can take direction? MR. PALMER: Well, it's a matter of discretion. Taking away a license is usually a last resort. I, in my personal opinion, just speaking out loud is if he's continuing this thing it's one thing; if he did this six or eight months ago and has ceased, it's another. From my personal perspective, I'm not telling you how to vote at all, but I'm saying if this activity has not been going on now for several months, the idea here is to have the activity cease. The goal is not to revoke certificates. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. I guess my basic concern is you have these people come before us to get a permit. They know the rules. They say they know the rules. They say they swear under oath they're going to do a certain thing. You tell them, "No, you're not allowed to do that per paragraph X." They say, "Okay. You have my word. I won't do that." We say, "Fine." We give them a permit. They turn right around, and they go out and they do it. Page 35 July 1 O, 2001 The picture in the paper which I brought in and showed to everybody and gave to you-- MR. PALMER: Well, there's no doubt about that incident, I don't think. MR. FLEGAL: Well, you can come before the committee and lie, and we don't care about it. MR. CSOGI: One time. MR. PALMER: Well, the only comment about that is he's taken the position that he did not know that he could not advertise as long as-- MR. FLEGAL: No. It's in the minutes because we all went back and checked. MR. PALMER: No. This one point is not in the minutes. And that is the question of whether or not I can advertise if I'm not at that time operating it as a vehicle for hire. That was not -- that is a -- an ambiguity. MR. FLEGAL: Did he turn in his permit? MS. CRUZ: No, sir. MR. PALMER: No. No. I'm talking about that day. His position is, "I was not operating as a vehicle for hire that day. That day I was operating it as an advertisement." So there's this ambiguity about whether or not the limitation applies only when you're operating the vehicle as a vehicle for hire. CHAIRMAN PEASE: He came to our office -- which I stated this, I believe, on the record -- he came to our office and made a sales presentation to our sales people -- MR. PALMER: Okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- offering to take people from the Fort Myers Airport to the hotel of choice with the logo of that particular company on the side of the vehicle. MR. PALMER: Okay. Concurrently with operating as a Page 36 July 1 O, 2001 vehicle for hire in that instance. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Again, this is four months ago now. MR. PALMER: Okay. Well, in then that-- again, in that particular instance, he's talking about actually doing the advertising while he is operating as a vehicle for hire. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's correct. And I advised our-- our salespeople that absolutely they could not offer that product because it was illegal in Collier County. MR. PALMER: Well, then this idea about this ambiguity -- in that particular instance, it didn't matter to him. He was going to do both at the same time. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think what we have is a company that's just thumbing their nose at this situation. MR. PALMER: Well, do we have any evidence any of the last three, four, five months that this activity is continuing? MS. CRUZ: We have his letterhead is offering advertisement. MR. CSOGI: I've got a question. We also sent a notice out to City Cab. They had a billboard on top and they were doing advertising. So in a sense what you're saying is, "You drop off a fare, you take the signs out of your car, you can put them on top and advertise" -- MR. PALMER: No. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that the ordinance is ambiguous on the point. In fact, it's being clarified now. MR. CSOGI: Well, I mean, that's what it sounds like to me. The ordinance says no advertising while you have a fare, and that's what -- MR. PALMER: Well, the ordinance doesn't say that. The ordinance says no advertising, but it doesn't make the direct point about whether or not it must be concurrent with vehicle-for-hire business, and it's -- it's -- I don't -- I think it's a stretch. Page 37 July 1 O, 2001 And, in fact, in this particular instance, the man didn't make the distinction. The only question in my mind is whether or not we have any evidence that this activity has ceased or whether it's continuing. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, I do know his business is for sale. He approached us to do that, which we're not interested in. So the number of violations maybe lessened because of his business being down, but that doesn't distract from the key point. MR. PALMER: Well, we have evidence of-- I think record evidence of a violation that occurred six months or more ago. We don't know how many times, in fact, he did this. And the question is: On that record do you want to revoke the certificate? MR. FLEGAL: Let me try to -- because I have a little concern like Mr. Csogi does. Are you saying that once you get a permit as long as you're -- as long as you wake up today and say, "Well, today I'm not going to operate under my permit. I'm just going to be a citizen," even though your vehicle's got the permit sticker on it, you can advertise on it? MR. PALMER: No. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that the ordinance on that particular narrow point is ambiguous. Although I don't think -- I think he's using it as an excuse because in when -- one particular case he did not make that distinction. He said, "I will operate this business as a vehicle for hire, and I will concurrently put an advertising sign on the side of the vehicle." So that's clearly a violation, but I was told through one staff member many, many months ago that he told them that, "I'm not doing them both concurrently. I'm only putting the vehicle advertising signs on the thing as an advertising business at the point in time when I'm not operating it as a vehicle for hire." Now, that was a distinction, and it occurred to me that the ordinance is ambiguous on that specific issue, but in Mr. Pizza's case, the man says, 'Tll come in, operate it, do passengers, and put a sign Page 38 July 1 O, 2001 on the side." Well,'obviously, that's operating with signs on the thing concurrently with operating as a vehicle for hire. So the distinction does not even apply in that instance. He was using it -- an excuse that was relayed to me, "Well, I'm not doing both concurrently. I'm only using it as a sign -- advertising sign as a separate act -- action, and I'm not transporting either passengers or cargo in those instances." And I'm not saying the ordinance allows that. I'm saying that might -- that might have been a plausible excuse, but it's not when, in fact, in Mr. Pizza's case he didn't make that distinction. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we have the right to suspend that sticker? MR. PALMER: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Until such time he comes before this committee? MR. PALMER: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. I make a motion that we suspend the vehicle-for-hire permit for Hummeride, Inc. until such time that he comes before this committee and explains his position. MR. PALMER: I would like to clarify that, put some specifics on that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All right. MR. PALMER: That becomes effective upon receipt of the notice of this action, that he has to apply for a hearing before the board, he has to take the initiative and have this matter before this board before that suspension can possibly be lifted. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I will amend my motion to include that. Do we have a second? MR. FLEGAL: I'll second. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All those in favor say "aye." MS. BAISLEY: Aye. MR. FLEGAL: Aye. Page 39 July 1 O, 2001 CHAIRMAN MR. CSOGI: CHAIRMAN MR. HYDE: PEASE: Aye. Aye. PEASE: Opposed. Opposed. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let the record show motion carries. Let's -- we're at the two-hour mark now, and I was hoping to get through the whole meeting in one set, but I don't think we can, plus, I need a couple minutes to get with how many speakers we have with comment, give you a break. Let's -- it's 10:25. Let's try and make it just a brief five-minute break if we could, 10:30 reconvene. (A short break was taken.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: I call the meeting back to order. Do we have anyone that would like to speak before the committee? MS. CRUZ: Yes, sir. We have two public speakers. The first one is Joseph O'Leary. MR. O'LEARY: Good morning. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Good morning. You have five minutes, sir. MR. O'LEARY: Five minutes. when that's up, or am I -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: I will. MR. O'LEARY: I figured that. Okay. Will you let me know CHAIRMAN PEASE: Pretend it's a light. MR. O'LEARY: Okay. I'm here representing City Cab, and there's two issues I really want to address, the first being what I think is the most -- what I've heard today several times from members of the board, people standing here, and even the county attorney, that we have meetings every three months. The county is growing so fast and industry is coming in here, buildings are popping up overnight. I think that we need this board to meet on a more frequent occasion. If not once a month, every other month. I had an issue at the last Page 40 July 10, 2001 meeting that I couldn't, attend and it took me three months before I could get back in front of the board again. That's virtually six months so ... Then one of the things I'm trying to say is I would like to see a proposal brought before the board, I guess. Who would vote on that, yourselves, that you increase the meetings and allow us -- because you represent us in the industry -- a little more access. That we need to respond to some problems that pop up in this industry in a greater number than they have in the past. And whether you can still limit the amount of applications if you want -- if your goal is, like, to limit applications or to not deal with that on a monthly basis, you could do that every three months. But the industry needs to be able to address the board more frequently. Mr. Csogi had a problem with City Cab signs. I own City Cab. When I started that business, I had no intention of violating any ordinances. Unintentionally I put advertising on the vehicles, and those signs are made for advertising. They are advertising on those vehicles all over the world. And I had no idea that I was violating this, but I also felt that I was denied due process. I didn't have the -- the ability to come to this board and say, "All right. I want to address that issue. Where on the ordinance does it say that? When it does say that, it's not clear, and we need to talk about it." And, you know, as -- as a permit holder and you people being on the committee, I think that I should have been able to talk to you in a more timely fashion. And I think another issue that comes up in the county that needs to be addressed in a more timely fashion. I'm still not satisfied with the fact that I can't advertise on it, but I imagine you will amend the ordinance and if it says on the ordinance you cannot advertise on taxicab for any other business. MR. PALMER: Well, it does say that. It does and in regard to a pure taxicab the ordinance is not unclear. The ordinance is unclear in the Hummeride situation where -- where -- where signs are Page 41 July 1 O, 2001 temporary. They are -- they are magnetic signs or whatever they go on and go off. That's the -- as far as putting a sign on top of a taxicab is not -- there's no ambiguity whatsoever. It's not debatable. The board can't change it and cannot waive it. The ordinance prohibits it. MR. O'LEARY: If you look at this quote, it was kind of vague. MR. PALMER: No. As far as the signs on City Cab, the ordinance is not in the slightest bit vague in my opinion. MR. O'LEARY: Well, everybody's entitled to an opinion. I didn't see in the ordinance anywhere that said that. You're saying to me I have to comply with another ordinance. MR. PALMER: I'm saying the only ambiguity is in the Hummeride situation of a temporary sign that's used at a time that the vehicle is not being used concurrently as a vehicle for hire. In that specific instance there's an ambiguity. Putting a permanent sign on top of a taxicab is not an ambiguity. MR. O'LEARY: Those signs come off and on, so it's the same situation. What I would like to focus on, though, because I think we do need discussions like this is to meet -- the board to be -- to set up more frequent meetings. MR. PALMER: The board can call a special meeting at any time at the motion of the chairman. MR. CSOGI: My question was, could it be someone from the private sector or the transportation sector contacts the chairperson and say they want a special meeting? Can't you arrange that? CHAIRMAN PEASE: I can I suppose. I direct it to staff first and ask them to put it on the agenda for the next meeting. MR. PALMER: But you can also call a special meeting on something like reasonable three- or four-day notice, and the board has done that, I think, on occasion over the years, infrequently, but once in awhile the board will call a special meeting to expedite some hot potato or expedite -- Page 42 July 1 O, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: We have in conjunction with when our next workshop, was and we did that. Any other comments? MR. O'LEARY: The only comment I have is that I think because of the growth of the county the number of businesses that are coming in here, not just taxicabs, other businesses, and the problems that our industry has, given the taxis -- the annual taxi meter thing that was done seven years ago that hasn't been done in seven years -- it wasn't an annual thing. There are problems in this industry, and we need access to resolve them. And I think once every three months is a problem in itself for us. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I would invite you to attend our workshops which are -- MR. O'LEARY: I intend to do that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- which are held monthly. We're only on page 12. So we're discussing all the changes that we suggest to the commissioners, and you're welcome to be a part of that. Thank you for your input today. MR. O'LEARY: Thank you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And if any member would like to discuss anything that's relevant to that, they can certainly put on the agenda for the next meeting by talking to staff. Any other public comment? MS. CRUZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. BRIDENTHAL: We have Jack Bridenthal. Okay. Jack Bridenthal, USA Taxi. I really-- my only comments were going to be on the amendments, but I guess that's going to be in workshop. So, you know, I do agree with Joe. Ditka or Shula, one of them was trying to sell us signs out of Miami, and I almost bought 'em, and I didn't know until after his hassle that it was in the ordinance. I just -- I completely missed it, so it's very possible he did too. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Falls through on not only ours but the Page 43 July 1 O, 2001 sign ordinance, doesn't it? Isn't there two different -- MR. PALMER: Both. Yes. There is a sign ordinance as well. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Which is unique to Collier County 'cause those signs are all over the world. MR. PALMER: Well, it's not unique to Collier County. I was the city attorney for Vero Beach. Vero Beach has always prohibited for advertising signs on vehicles for hire as one example. So we are not the only entity or local government that prohibits it. That's not to say that it's not changeable or amendable. The board may recommend to the Board of County Commissioners to eliminate that restriction. MR. BRIDENTHAL: I'm glad that it's not available because after we didn't do it a driver said, "Well, what if you sit in front of this restaurant and you're advertising this restaurant. They wouldn't be happy." So that's a thought I didn't have. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Thank you for your comment. We call the public comment time closed. Do we have a motion for adjournment? First of all, do we have any reports? MR. CRUZ: No. None from staff. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All right. Do we have a motion for adjournment of the regular meeting? MR. FLEGAL: Make a motion we adjourn. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Second. MS. BAISLEY: I'll second that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Second by Pat Baisley. All those in favor say "aye." (Unanimous response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Opposed. (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carried. (Regular meeting adjourned and workshop commenced.) Page 44 July 1 O, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: We will still continue with court reporting through the workshop, please. Now, the next meeting will be October 1 st for the regular meeting. Now, we open the workshop up. Vice chair had a great suggestion. Can we start with -- is there anything that the staff wants to present to us and walk through, such as, I assume the -- the inspection sheet and also I assume the driver ID cards. MS. CRUZ: I believe during the last workshop staff-- board requested for staff to obtain samples so we can determine if that's the route that we want to go perhaps in the next year when the renewals come up as to identify versus the notice stickers that we are using presently. I also believe that the board has been provided with that sample, that ID card, and we're open for comments. MS. HU: There are two different IDs. One is for Broward County, and one is for the City of Chicago just so that we could get different opinions -- I'm sorry, for the City of San Francisco -- just so that we had different formats. They also provided a copy of their ordinance as to the requirements of this particular ID. MR. PALMER: I don't have a copy. Thank you. MR. CSOGI: But we were going to make this all one card though; right? We were just seeing what a portion of it would be? Is that what we're moving towards? CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think that is the card. MR. CSOGI: But we were going to have the county's number on there in case of a problem also, and then is it just rates going to be on there, or are they going to be on the taxi meter? MS. BAISLEY: No. They would be on a separate -- MR. CSOGI: Taxi meter. MS. BAISLEY: Are we proposing that these be done by the county itself or by the operator? They need to be a uniform thing. I Page 45 July 1 O, 2001 think they need to be done by the county. MR. PALMER: Otherwise, you will get 50 different-- MS. BAISLEY: That's right. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. I think if-- whatever we come up with should be done by the county, and naturally there's an expense to make these cards, and they're not going to be that big, I wouldn't think, but I think -- I think whatever is generated that that cost can be added to whatever it cost to get a permit. If it's now -- and I don't remember the numbers -- but if it's now $200, okay, you make it 210 or 225, whatever, to include getting this. And that's just something if you want a permit you're going to have to pay. It's like everything else. You want a driver's license, you got to pay for it. You want to operate a vehicle and this is a requirement, you're going to have to pay for it. MS. BAISLEY: Well, you'd probably have to pay every time you went down to get one because you're going to hiring drivers over the years. MR. FLEGAL: Correct. I understand you're going to change -- change drivers, but I think it's up to the permit holder to pay the county to do that. That's just going to be part of the ordinance. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let the record show that, you know, again, I'm opposed to increased regulation. I'm opposed to increased taxes on the operators. I'm opposed to increased bureaucracy. I think it's in direct conflict with the intent of the people we report to, the county commissioners. You know, to have every operator submit every driver to the county to get their photo ID and get approval, you know, then you get into -- I see Broward County ask them -- looks like they ask them questions about the area, and they have to be able to know, you know. That's the operator's responsibility in a free- market society, not the county' s. MR. O'LEARY: Excuse me. May I say something about that? Page 46 July 1 O, 2001 We have to get our drivers approved by the insurance companies. I have 70 people in a file of approved drivers. I only have four drivers now, so you would have the same situation with the ID cards. You know these guys are going to get ID cards. I mean, drivers are hard to keep, transient almost. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I don't know. When I go traveling around the United States and I jump in the cab, whether it's in L.A. Or wherever, there's a picture of a guy in there. So to say that you don't want regulation -- MR. PALMER: And it goes with the driver. It's not limited to Yellow Cab or anybody. This is your face. You take it with you. And as I remember in Washington, D.C., it was good for a limited duration. You bought this one time, and as long as you kept it active year after year after year, you never pay it again for this thing. And you could have a limited -- it could have a duration of ten years or something like that, but this isn't going to be renewed every year and pay $25. This is a one-time expense. MR. FLEGAL: If you stay with the same company, I understand, yeah. MR. PALMER: Well, it -- no, it goes with you. It's not -- it's not issued to a company. MR. FLEGAL: This one happens to have the cab name on it, so if you went from Yellow to Checker -- MR. PALMER: Right. But this is currently issued by the City of San Francisco. MS. BAISLEY: But if each driver was issued one of these with no company name on it, then, like, for instance, I'm Yellow Cab, I could just tell you that I have Driver No. 46915 listed with my company so you can keep track of where that driver is. MR. PALMER: Well, the important thing is for this -- for this system to notify the passenger that the driver is an authorized driver. Page 47 July 1 O, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: That's right. MR. PALMER: So it doesn't matter what company he's working for as long as the man behind the wheel has one of these on the visor. That's all that passenger cares about. And in Washington, D.C., you're not affiliated with a company. This was a face personal to you essentially to you as a grandiose driver's license. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So we're going to approve drivers. Pat's going to approve drivers and, of course, the next thing is, well, when he gets in major accidents, well, he was approved by the county? MR. FLEGAL: No. Staff isn't going to approve drivers. They're just going to register them. MR. PALMER: Right. MR. FLEGAL: They can't get one of these unless they work for one of these gentlemen out there. If they walk in and say, "Gee, I work for City Cab" and Mr. O'Leary -- I think I got the name right -- says, "Yes, he does," he gets a little registration card. Mr. O'Leary's the one that approved him. He's going to drive his cab. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So -- so -- so the next step is, you know, look what Broward is doing. Broward then says, "Okay, you got to be mental and emotionally stable." How are you-- how are you going to determine that, staff?. MR. PALMER: Well, we don't do that. MR. FLEGAL: Nobody said we're going to do that. We're talking about getting a card. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm talking about how it continues to escalate the government bureaucracy and the more -- and then the next step is local area, how well do you know the local area. MR. FLEGAL: Let's back up. We didn't propose this to the commissioners, so since we didn't why are you concerned about it? Let's worry about just getting a little card with a guy's face on it and a number. Page 48 July 10, 2001 MR. CSOGI: Let's also talk about why we initiated this. This is a public advisory committee to the board. This is for the public. This is not for the transportation industry. From what I understand, we're here for the public, and these cards are for a recourse for the public should they have a problem in the industry, and that's why this was initiated. We're not controlling everything. We're just providing a simple path that the public can take should they have a problem in the industry so we can recognize it. And, you know, you can say you don't have any problems in the industry, but up until now there's been no way to track it. MS. BAISLEY: But it's a comfort level for them, too, when they get in the vehicle and they see the same face on the picture as the driver. MR. PALMER: Otherwise, they don't have the slightest idea who the driver is, do they? MR. FLEGAL: It's -- it's a safety issue, I mean, you know. MR. CSOGI: All it is. MR. FLEGAL: You know the guy driving the vehicle and you're sitting in the back is this fellow, and he obviously works for either one of the cab companies or-- MR. PALMER: Some certificate holder-- some certificate holder. MR. CSOGI: Look at all -- look at All Aboard Transportation. They're running around-- if we had this installed and we pulled their certificates because they -- they weren't driving anymore, we would ask for-- if they were a certificate holder, and we probably would ask for these back. MS. CRUZ: And with All Aboard, if there is an All Aboard Transportation out there, they don't even have the stickers. MR. CSOGI: Right. Well, it's a moot point about the -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: I agree with you, Mr. Csogi, we do work Page 49 July 1 O, 2001 for the members of the community. I'm just not sure that the things we're putting in place now are resolving anything in terms of the safety issue. MR. CSOGI: Well, what kind of a reason-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: It does increase operator cost or some cost. MR. CSOGI: The reason we're doing it this way is because we were trying to decrease the number of stickers inside vehicles for the taxicab companies, stickers on the windows. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I know. I understand the background, Mr. Csogi. I understand. MR. O'LEARY: You go to get a fishing license. Go down to the county and say you want a fishing license. They can be issued by the county. Going to cost money. I guess we will have to pay for them. If that's what you need to be safe to recognize the face, we'll probably have to do that. MR. PALMER: One of the things we need to do is find out what it's going to cost. We have that digital machine that takes a photograph, and one minute later a laminated card pops out. We got to find out if we can get that machine and what it costs the county to issue a card on it. Every employee of the county has a laminated photograph card that took about three minutes to produce, and if we could get access to that piece of equipment in your department at certain times or month -- whatever the time frame is to do it -- these things could be issued summarily and out the door. Just have to find out what the costs are. MS. CRUZ: We also got to keep in mind, you know, how -- what's the size of this card going to be? Because if you have a little old lady sitting in the backseat and her vision is not 20/20, how can she identify the same face with the driver? MR. PALMER: This is -- this is a typical card. I've seen them Page 50 July 1 O, 2001 larger. I've never seen them smaller than that. It's got a large number on it. It's got a man's name. MR. CSOGI: We never said where we're going to put them yet, though. MR. PALMER: I think it says essentially, "readily visible to any passenger," but they're normally up on rubber bands on the visor in front of the driver. MR. CSOGI: And what's behind the driver's seat? MR. PALMER: They're sometimes there, but usually the face -- this is called a "face" -- is usually up right on -- in the middle of the visor in front of the driver. MR. CSOGI: Hanging down. MR. PALMER: No. It's on -- it's not hanging down. It's on-- put on usually on rubber bands, and it's right there in front, and you can see it quite readily around the taxicab, and you can make -- you can see that the person behind the wheel is that person up on the picture. MR. CSOGI: Got you. MR. PALMER: Often, though, in taxicabs there is also a plastic thing behind the driver which has rates on it and so forth. I don't think we require that in Collier County. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I think a card with, you know, a picture and a number and not necessarily the taxicab or an operator's name on it is really needed in this county. Since we are growing so fast and there's a lot of-- I'm sure keeping drivers it's not an easy chore, and you probably change a lot. So I think to make the public feel safe that we should recommend to the commissioners it's something similar to this be done. Now, I think Tom's right. We ought to see if we could borrow this machine for the code enforcement at, you know, whether it's once a month or once every two weeks. I don't know how often it's Page 51 July 10, 2001 currently used. won't do any bigger. MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: And will it do bigger than it currently does. Maybe it I don't know what its size limitations are. Maybe it'll only do the current size badge, but if that's all it'll do, well, then that's too bad. What's the next size up and what would it cost, but I think we need it. I think the citizens in Collier County deserve to know that Joe Blow sitting up there is Joe Blow on the picture and cool. It's not, "Gee, there is a picture up there of an Asian, and the guy that's driving my cab is a Chinese, or, you know, or something." You know, or the picture up there is an American Indian, and there's a -- you know, somebody from China driving. It gets a little scary, especially for the elderly, and they probably use these vehicles a lot to go to the doctor and the grocery store and-- MR. O'LEARY: Or there can be a temporary situation where a driver can say, "I want a temporary pass until you can issue me a regular pass." You see what I'm saying? You're creating a whole Pandora's box. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I mean, to get these shouldn't be a big challenge. I mean, you know, because other than driving down there from wherever you are to Horseshoe Drive and take -- it's like when you get a passport photo. I mean, you know, it's a five-minute deal. If you can't take five minutes out of your life, you probably don't deserve this job anyway. MR. PALMER: Yeah. And there's also -- we don't need a fancy machine. You can buy these manual things. You can do these things. You know, you can press them down probably for $25 or $30. You don't need any computerized digital camera machine like we've got. If we have to fall back on something more manual, I'm sure that this is-- MR. O'LEARY: Like a passport photo. Page 52 July 10, 2001 MR. PALMER: Yeah -- that this is not a big deal to have staff have some kind of a machine that they may have to do it manually. But this is not rocket science we're dealing with here, and there's nothing unusual about this. In fact, I would bet that most local jurisdictions have some kind of a driver identification requirement. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, let's direct staff to check on the pricing and what the current system is in Collier County is for laminating and if we can do a bigger size and report back at the next workshop if possible, please. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, I think the only addition to the ordinance would be something similar to this -- I assume this is San Francisco's, this one paragraph No. 5. It's not a big deal. MS. BAISLEY: I believe that's -- MR. FLEGAL: It's pretty straightforward. You have a three- by-five card, blah, blah, blah. I mean, it's not super technical. CHAIRMAN PEASE: No. MR. FLEGAL: And it's -- you know, so we're not -- MR. HYDE: In an issue of--just to make life a little easier, we may also want to look at a generic printed form that already has, for example, the 800 number or whatever it is, the Collier County logo, and then a place to type in the name of the driver in big block letters. Whether it has an actual number on it, like, 46915 and they're just generically printed from 1 to 5,000, and then that's assigned in a log, and then all we do is take a passport photo which the applicant provides. I mean, he can get that for 6.95 at Cosco or 5.95 at Cosco. He brings two of them in. One goes to the county to be kept on record; the other one goes in. It's laminated over and it's done, versus going into the computer and doing this. If we get to that stage finally, great. If not, we still have a manual system that effectively would be able to insure that the driver gets it quickly and efficiently. It can be done five days a week, and it really wouldn't take that much effort. Page 53 July 1 O, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think the comment on not having the owner of the company or not having the company name on the card is a -- that probably should be replaced with the phone number that you call. MR. HYDE: Exactly. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So if possible if you can do a mock-up of what capability the county already has, that would be a plus. MR. PALMER: What I recommend would -- sort of flexible is adopt a form by resolution and attach it. If you want to change it, you can just amend the resolution. We don't have to amend the ordinance. And we'll set a fee. Ifthe fee's $10 and it goes up to $12 next year, amend the resolution, raise the fee to $12. You do it just like that, but we'll never have to amend the ordinance. It will put a mechanism in the ordinance to take care of this issue, but we'll never have to amend the ordinance to quantify this little parameter if we want to do that as we go. MR. O'LEARY: But the driver couldn't drive until he had one? MR. PALMER: I tell you, in Washington, D.C., when I drove a taxicab, you did not drive a taxicab until you got your face, and I always thought that was a darn smart regulation. MR. HYDE: For example -- for example, if you're -- if you're a taxi driver and you've already got your license to simply say, "Fine. You need to go down and you need to get a passport ID." Go to wherever we decide to have it, whether it's code enforcement, "and you need to pay a $10 fee and you need to get this done and do it within 24 hours." I don't think that that should be an issue or refrain from the driver being able to drive. MR. PALMER: In Washington, D.C., if you got caught by an undercover cop without that face on your visor, you were summarily suspended from operation and given a ticket. It was serious business Page 54 July 1 O, 2001 there, and it was a mandatory prerequisite that that be in the cab at all times that it was being operated. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other discussion? MS. CRUZ: I would like to -- Mr. Chairman, I would like to add something. If we, the staff are going to be monitoring the -- or controlling -- semi-controlling the drivers with this ID card, I would like to add that we also do a criminal background on these drivers when they come in to get the cards, and it takes us 30 seconds to do that now. Used to be -- MR. CSOGI: I've heard a lot of input from the industry that would like that-- a lot of cab companies. MS. CRUZ: It used to be two weeks. MR. O'LEARY: I would like that. I have them do it now. It's a lot -- she can do it a lot simpler than I could. MR. CSOGI: I've talked to a couple owners that would like to do that. MS. CRUZ: It takes about 30 seconds to do a background check. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. All right. Let's go to the inspection sheet. MS. HU: Can I go back really quick. I just want to clarify what exactly it is that the board would like to see on these IDs, what -- what information. I understand you wanted the picture and the name and a phone number is all that I've gathered. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't know that it needs to be -- does it need to be numbered? MS. BAISLEY: I think it does. MR. FLEGAL: Oh, yeah, you've got to have a number. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, to keep -- that's the only way really to keep track of them. If you don't number them, you could have a Page 55 July 10, 2001 gazillion of these floating around and means absolutely nothing. MS. BAISLEY: It makes it easier for the person to -- to call in with a complaint to the county too. They can see Driver No. 46915 or MR. MR. MR. MR. PALMER: It's a lot easier than trying to remember a name. CSOGI: What if you have ten Bobby Jones? PALMER: Exactly. CSOGI: I mean, you can't do it. MR. PALMER: I think a number like this is standard practice. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Any other questions from staff?. MR. CSOGI: Maybe the county seal on it also. MS. HU: And you want the -- I take it, you want the Collier County help desk phone number, what we already have? MR. FLEGAL: Right. Whatever that 800 number is that you- all have currently. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Do you want to walk us through the inspection sheet? MS. CRUZ: Okay. This was generated from the ordinance. There is a requirement, some standards required in the ordinance and, basically, all these items were taken from there. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Good. MR. FLEGAL: There is a requirement, is there not, that these should be in the operator's files? Did they do this? Is this once a year, Maria, or twice a year? MS. CRUZ: I believe the ordinance requires every six months. MR. FLEGAL: Every six months, okay. What we were trying to attempt is to make it -- everybody use the same form so that if you went in to look at the records the forms would all be the same. MS. CRUZ: Right. And this was the form used when we did the taxi vehicle inspections. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So the six -- the midyear one is done by Page 56 July 1 O, 2001 the owner operator, and it's available for inspection. Then the annual one you would -- or someone from the county would review this inspection when they get their permit? MR. CSOGI: I think it just says every six months it should be reviewed. It doesn't say-- MS. HU: Right. MR. CSOGI: -- one annual and one's county. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Reviewed by who, though? MR. CSOGI: The committee. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. CSOGI: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: sheets? MR. CSOGI: MS. CRUZ: This committee? We review everybody's inspection I brought that up when I first came on the board. May I? On page 11, Item 15, it says (as read): "Every certificate holder shall cause every vehicle for hire that it owns, operates, leases, or controls to be inspected at least once every six months." MR. CSOGI: By who? CHAIRMAN PEASE: By the owner/operator which is what's currently done, but -- but the -- on the last renewal the taxis were reviewed, I guess, and inspected, Pat, didn't you say? MS. BAISLEY: Yes. That was just a month ago. MR. CSOGI: But that was just taxis. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That was just taxis. MS. CRUZ: This requires every certificate -- every vehicle for hire and then it says that (as read): "The certificate holder shall maintain a permanent registry containing the information on the identity of each vehicle prior inspected." And that said, "Permanent registry shall be available for inspection and/or copy by the county." MS. BAISLEY: But this form would allow the county if they Page 57 July 1 O, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: inspection. went to, say, my office to have a form they are familiar with to look at rather than six different forms for six different companies. MR. CSOGI: Right. But this is just an inspection form. This doesn't have to do with how many fares they pick up in a month. No. We're not talking about that. We're not talking about that; vehicle MR. CSOGI: But what we're referring to is a trip log required and a daily manifest. We're talking about two different things. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Are you on this sheet? I'm on this sheet, but what are you referencing in MR. CSOGI: the bylaws? MR. HYDE: MS. CRUZ: Page 11. Page 11 under-- MR. FLEGAL: Are you reading the one -- I don't know if you got that far. MS. CRUZ: Minimum vehicle standards. MR. PALMER: I'm looking at the final third draft, and I'm working from it. I also recommended a number of minor adjustments in this area that we haven't gotten to yet, I think. MR. FLEGAL: Look in the book at the actual ordinance. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we want to continue on this topic or go back to page 12 where we left off?. MR. FLEGAL: I wouldn't look at this at all. I'd go with the actual ordinance in here. CHAIRMAN PEASE: The old ordinance. MR. FLEGAL: Well, the existing ordinance. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Thank you for correcting me on that. MR. FLEGAL: There is a proposed and an existing. We can only deal with existing. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. What page? Page 58 July 10, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: Eleven. MS. CRUZ: It starts on page 8, minimum vehicle standards, and all these items were -- MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MS. MR. MS. But the actual doing the inspection -- CRUZ: Right. FLAGEL: -- is on page 11 under Item 15. CRUZ: Item 15, correct. MR. FLEGAL: That's the -- basically the second sentence, every certificate holder. MS. BAISLEY: Is it the county's intention to inspect the vehicles themselves once a year like you just did? MS. CRUZ: I do not know what the county's intention -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think the PVAC should make that call and not staff. MS. BAISLEY: Because not all vehicles were inspected either. I mean, taxicabs were singled out. MR. CSOGI: Well, this also says on page 11 on 15 here -- if I can do it real quick, it also says (as read): "Nature of deficiencies, defects discovered and remedied action" and there's no area on here for any of that on this checklist, if you're going to have a checklist you might want to put another section in there for what was found wrong, who fixed it, how it was fixed, the date it was fixed. MS. CRUZ: The way we handled the checklist is we would check off the items that were wrong or there was something wrong with. MR. CSOGI: Yeah. But it states here, "The certificate holder shall maintain a permanent registry." That's what this is going to be, part of their permanent registry. So if we're trying to make it uniform for them, then we should have -- make it very simple for them, maybe include -- maybe to the right or to the left or something. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. Let me ask, simplify it. Since we got a Page 59 July 1 O, 2001 full page up under the second paragraph it says, (as read): "The following marked items not in compliance." Why can't you just add to that so -- you know, show correction or information or something on the reverse of this sheet. So they can flip it over and write on it rather than have 200 pieces of paper? Why can't we just stick with one piece of paper. If it says that the seat belts are not in operating condition, you check that and flip it over, see seat belts repaired by John Doe on such and such a date. Fine. I'm happy. He repaired them. MR. CSOGI: Right. MR. FLEGAL: And I got one piece of paper. So can we just maybe add one sentence that says "show corrective action on reverse" or on the backside or something. Let's make it simple for these fellows. Let's not make their life any more difficult. I'm sure they write it down somewhere now if they do it. MR. O'LEARY: Some of the stuff they requested, like on a couple of the vehicles, were the third brake light in the back. There's a couple of problems with that. Some of these cars, those weren't required on any cars that particular year, and they don't work now. Thermal functions on one particular vehicle, the wires were gone. What am I supposed to do, rewire this optional item that was put in to make the car look nice to the public, not functionally necessary? MR. FLEGAL: But you have brake lights? MR. O'LEARY: I have brake lights. You know the little strip light that goes across? CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think what we have is staff being -- what we have is staff being put in the position of inspecting vehicles in which they are not trained to inspect vehicles. MS. CRUZ: When we did the inspection of the taxi vehicles, we had a certified mechanic doing the inspections. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. He told you they needed lights -- Page 60 July 10, 2001 those lights in the back? MR. O'LEARY: No. The county told me that. He didn't tell me I needed that. They had a checklist they went through but, you know, that can be added and subtracted. It's one small thing right now with those lights because those lights -- this was a station wagon. You open and close that door as many times as you do a taxicab. Believe me, that's going to break every ten minutes 'cause you're slamming the door back five or six hundred times. MR. CSOGI: That third brake light was a federal law, and it was in '86 it was enacted. MR. O'LEARY: '86, it was? MR. CSOGI: '86 or '89 but I think before that didn't require anything after. It's not for the county; it's just a federal. So if it was a pre -- MR. O'LEARY: I'm just making one particular -- MR. CSOGI: Yeah. So if it was a prefederal law then this shouldn't -- I don't see why we should enforce it on the man's vehicle. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yes. Public comment's certainly welcome during the workshop, but if you could come to the microphone so the court reporter could hear you, please. MR. O'LEARY: All I wanted to say was that if you had a set -- a set form that you used and checked off when the inspectors were done, they were done quickly. They were done efficiently. I didn't have any problems with them. Matter of fact, they corrected a lot of problems and pointed out some problems I didn't know I had. But you need to have a guideline that the county would, like, you're required two brake lights in the back of a car. You require low beams or high beams. Not some -- when you buy a Grand Marquis and then use it as a taxicab and it has some accessory to it that isn't really functional towards operating a taxicab and shouldn't be required. You know, the basic needs like seat belts, brake lights, and Page 61 July 1 O, 2001 stuff like, and going into a small thing I didn't think it was necessary. MR. FLEGAL: Tom, let me ask you a question. MR. PALMER: Uh-huh. MR. FLEGAL: Since we're talking about these accessory lights or brake lights or whatever, I guess the only way that comes up is in 316 of the Florida Statutes, because in reading this nowhere do I see anything about brake lights. It says, "minimum vehicle standards." It doesn't talk about headlights, brake lights or anything, so that's not here other than the reference of a vehicle to meet the operating and safety requirements of this article of Chapter 316 Florida Statutes. Maybe it's in there. I don't know because I've never read that. I don't know what that says. MR. PALMER: There's something in 316. I think I -- talking about subsection 13 on page 8 of the ordinance we're working on. I think I lifted this out of somebody else's ordinance, Orlando or somebody this text, headlights, turn signals, brake lights, and taillights. I don't think that's a mirror image of what is in 316, but 316 does have some requirements which, of course, this board or this county has no way to eliminate their state statute requirements. They must be complied with in any case. MR. FLEGAL: But I guess what I'm looking for is if the county is going to go inspect somebody's vehicle, this particular ordinance -- and I'm using this brake light because that right now happens to be that -- that's not listed here, so in this inspection report, I mean, are we -- is that being pulled out of 316 or something? I mean, ! don't know and I'm trying to solve a problem that may be not only him but may be every taxicab operator that bought a vehicle and it's not, quote, unquote, a true brake light. It's some type of fanny add-on for a certain type of vehicle. When you step on the brakes, the brake lights come on. MR. PALMER: Right. If-- if it's in the state statute or it's a Page 62 July 10, 2001 federal law, it stands irrespective of what we do. If it's only our rule and we don't want to leave it in there, we can take it out. This ordinance has a provision that says it some other place, that this ordinance does not affect any other federal or state law that's applicable to the particular situation. That goes without saying, actually. So any self-imposed regulation that we have and it's only our rule, we can, of course, eliminate it at our discretion. MR. CSOGI: Unless it's a federal -- MR. PALMER: Unless it's state or federal, in which case it stands irrespective of what Collier County may want to do about it. MS. CRUZ: May I add something -- and I can't find it in the ordinance where it says about the lights, but it is -- we have here it says (as read): "All lights must be maintained in operating condition," and then it lists all the lights. The only part -- part in the ordinance that I can find is -- talks about the interior light "properly functioning interior light." So is that, like, more important than the brake lights? MR. FLEGAL: I didn't write the ordinance. I'm just saying, when I read the ordinance -- MS. CRUZ: Should we be -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: One at a time, please. MR. PALMER: Well, then look at page 8, paragraph 13. MR. CSOGI: On the third draft? MR. PALMER: Yes. Lines 28, 29, and 30. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What page, again? MR. PALMER: Page 8, lines 28, 29, and 30. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What a strange stapling. MR. PALMER: Yeah. I don't know who did that. MR. FLEGAL: That was easy when they grabbed them out of the machines. Yeah, I see what you're doing. But at the same time if -- if we recommend something like that be put in, that really doesn't solve their existing problem that there's some accessory light that isn't Page 63 July 10, 2001 operating and he's going to get written up for it. That's what he's worried about. MR. PALMER: What light is this we're talking about? MR. CSOGI: Well, for you -- before the federal law came out a year or two -- well, actually, if I remember correctly, when the federal law came out requiring manufacturers to have a third brake light, there was a number of after-market companies saying, "Hey, you've got an older vehicle you want to put one in?" MR. PALMER: Of course. All the time. MR. CSOGI: That's where it's coming in to play. It didn't come stocked on his car. MR. PALMER: Okay. MR. CSOGI: It wasn't affected by the federal law. MR. PALMER: All right. MR. CSOGI: So when he went through the inspection it wasn't working, so they said, "You've got to get it working or you don't get your sticker." MR. O'LEARY: No, I was advised to go. It wasn't exactly that cruel. MR. CSOGI: Well, it would have been. CHAIRMAN PEASE: His point also, if it's an interior door light, not a dome light, but an interior door light, you slam the door a few 10, 20 times, and the light bulb's going to blow, and you're going to be replacing it every week or two. MR. CSOGI: Well, I think it should be amended to read that -- MR. PALMER: We can clarify it when we get to 13, but I drove a taxicab for two years, and I never had an interior light go out. I don't know what we're talking about here. MR. O'LEARY: What I meant was there are minimum requirements for motor vehicles. You have to have brake lights, headlights, high beams and not to have other stuff put on there like Page 64 July 1 O, 2001 side blinkers. They're not required by minimum requirements for motor vehicles. You can have front blinkers. You don't have to have the little ones on the side, but if you have a car with side blinkers, they're not working, they're telling you that you have to fix that light. MR. CSOGI: I think it should read that any vehicle that is equipped from the factory, that that factory item should be properly working. MS. CRUZ: I agree. If it's there it should work. MR. CSOGI: From the factory only. If it's anything else, we shouldn't control it. MR. PALMER: This ordinance does not say anything about an interior light to my knowledge. MR. CSOGI: I know. I'm just saying -- MR. PALMER: I'm just saying we're simply talking about an interior light. MS. CRUZ: It does say on page 9, Item 7. MR. PALMER: Item what? MS. CRUZ: Seven. That's the only light that addresses. MR. PALMER: Are you talk -- let's work with ordinance 3, the third draft. MS. CRUZ: The existing ordinance. MR. PALMER: I don't have a copy of the existing ordinance. I have Draft 3. MR. FLEGAL: The existing ordinance, Tom, all the way down at the bottom of page 9, there's an Item 7 that says (as read): "Properly functioning interior light," period. That's the existing ordinance. MR. PALMER: Well, the ordinance that I have that we're working from has all the text in the existing ordinance. Anything that isn't underlined is in the existing text. I -- I can't find it in the third draft. It's in here somewhere. Page 65 July 1 O, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: But you would only need to have one properly functioning interior light according to that. They don't -- all the door panel lights and everything-- MR. FLEGAL: On page 7 of your-- of Draft 3, Tom, line 33. MR. PALMER: Okay. There it is, properly functioning interior light. That's probably a local rule, and the board can -- this board can recommend the issue of that properly functioning light, leave it in or take it out in your discretion. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, I think what we were trying or I didn't write the original ordinance, but I'm trying to guess what people did, an interior light -- you pick up a passenger at night. Hopefully you open a door, a light goes on somewhere so they can see to get in the car. MR. PALMER: Exactly. MR. FLEGAL: You don't want to crawl in a black hole. MR. PALMER: Exactly. MR. FLEGAL: So, I mean, I'm more interested in an overhead light than door lights. Because the doors are out there somewhere. You just open them. I want an overhead light that I can see the seat and where am I putting my packages or whatever I may have. MR. CSOGI: More importantly the ID is hanging. MS. BAISLEY: Right. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. And you're going to see this guy's picture but, I mean, that was probably the intent and the interior light being an overhead light. MR. PALMER: Of course it is. MR. FLEGAL: Rather than the new cars with fancy door lights. MR. O'LEARY: That's what I was talking about. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is there any other discussion on the -- or direction from the PVAC to staff on the form they've provided? MR. FLEGAL: You know, other than giving them a way to Page 66 July 1 O, 2001 know that they can write any corrections on the back I think -- you know -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Maybe on the back we just give them some lines and some columns like what you talked about. MR. PALMER: I'm recommending on my draft, Maria, that these items be numbered 1 through 25. It says, "Items marked with a check passed that item, items marked with an X failed." Now, the following -- it says "the following marked items." That means that anything that's blank you really don't know about it. The thing about it is this man ought to put a check or an X in every block to know that the block has been addressed. Leaving a block blank doesn't tell anybody anything. And then on the back say, "Corrective action needed," Item No. 8 and the person can say, "You got to do this." Item No. 23, "Do this." CHAIRMAN PEASE: Just, if you could show staff at the end of the meeting that, I think it's a good format. Does everybody else agree with that? In terms of the inspection, is the procedure, then, that the six- month inspection be done by the operator and the 12 month -- the other one will be done by a county certified maintenance person? MR. PALMER: I've got questions about the county doing inspections unless -- this is just for thought for your consideration -- I think you've already thought about it -- is that if we're going to have inspections, we ought to have it done always by an independent contractor who's wholly responsible for the inspections so there aren't liability issues about the county inspecting a vehicle that goes out the next day and kills somebody because it wasn't properly inspected. So if, in fact, we are going to do that, I think we ought to do that by somebody -- a fully insured, fully responsible independent contractor. MR. FLEGAL: I -- I don't think that the county, period, should Page 67 July 1 O, 2001 MR. MR. currently MR. PALMER: Ought to get into the business. FLEGAL: -- get into the business of inspecting. in that business. PALMER: That's another thing. We're not MR. FLEGAL: Bryan has stated he doesn't want big brother gettin in our face. Now he wants big brother to inspect vehicles. CHAIRMAN PEASE: No. I'm not suggesting that. MR. FLEGAL: We don't do it currently. MR. PALMER: The only question is -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm suggesting the owner operator do it on an annual basis; that's what I'm suggesting or a six-month basis, twice -- twice a year. Not through the county but what happened is the taxi operators got -- had an inspection done. Which -- you know, if-- if we're going to say it's going to be inspected -- you know, I personally prefer the owner operator do the inspections, point blank. MR. FLEGAL: Well, that's what it currently says, and that's the way it should remain, that it's their problem to inspect it, and the county's allowed to go look at the inspection records. If they want to inspect vehicles on their own for some reason, that's the county's problem. MR. PALMER: My only comment on this: If I'm a sole proprietor and I've got one taxicab and I fudge up an inspection, the county's got no way to know whether that thing is worth the paper it's written on. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Mr. Csogi recommended the last time that they go through-- MR. CSOGI: They have to have a -- MR. PALMER: State-certified inspection. MR. CSOGI: What I recommended at the last meeting was that, again, yeah, they could just have their own company mechanic do it - - which, if some -- if you were to take a recourse, you really wouldn't Page 68 July 1 O, 2001 have any because it really wouldn't be worth what it was written on. What I recommend is that let them handle it on their own but go to a repair shop that holds a license from the state. MR. PALMER: And that's what I have on the top of page 9. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And that's a tax on those owner operators of about $60 a vehicle. MR. PALMER: Well, let's do it once every 12 months, not make it every 6 months. I don't think six months -- that strikes me as a little bit onerous. MS. BAISLEY: Can't we have an internal one six months that's done by the operator, whether it's their own in-house mechanic or whatever, and one that's done by a certified repair shop.9 MR. PALMER: That's an option, of course. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Go ahead and speak. MR. WHITNEY: The Florida Department of Transportation has an annual safety inspection certification form already developed, and I believe the taxi industry could use it there. My name is Nick Whitney from Checker Cab. And we also do some work with the county now for some of the vehicles, the buses, and we have to prepare an annual safety inspection every year for the Florida Department of Transportation. There is 25 or 30 items on the list that has to inspected and signed offby a certified mechanic. And I see no reason why we couldn't do the same -- MR. PALMER: Twelve bucks. MR. WHITNEY: It might be a little bit costly to us operators, but it's actually cheaper in the long run when you have your safety inspection done. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Are you talking about the large -- your mini-coaches.9 MR. WHITNEY: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: The DOT, the same thing we get Page 69 July 1 O, 2001 annually for anyone with a large vehicle. MR. WHITNEY: Exactly. CHAIRMAN PEASE: An annual DOT inspection. MR. WHITNEY: Right. It's already developed by the Florida Department of Transportation. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But now we're talking about taking it down to the sedan van. MR. WHITNEY: Yeah. brake lights, your turn signals. All it is is safety, you know, your Everything that's a safety issue on a Here you go." MS. HU: county. vehicle is on this form. I'll be glad to provide one to the committee if you would like. MS. HU: I would like to add that when I was reviewing or trying to get information as to who monitored the children that are transported to and from daycares, I -- I spoke to the person who was in charge of this, which is Children and Families, and the way they do it is they -- they receive an inspection sheet -- well, they give the daycares an inspection sheet, and they take it to a certified auto repair shop and they, in turn, bring back the actual inspection. And that's how they get their certification so ... And I believe that that's what Nick was talking about. MR. PALMER: I thought our idea was, we were going to have a form, they could come in and get it, take it to an inspector, if it passed inspection bring it back to Maria and say, "Here it is," and then passed. If it doesn't pass, they make -- take the corrective action and bring it back and say, "Two things are wrong. I got them fixed. And that way everybody would be on the same page. And they wouldn't have to come back and forth to the MR. PALMER: Right. In fact, hopefully the -- the form would stay good for years. We won't be tweaking it every time we turn around. I mean -- Page 70 July 1 O, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: Would this form have to be presented when you go down to get a new vehicle in service -- placed in service? MR. PALMER: Well, that's an issue that we haven't addressed. MS. BAISLEY: We probably should address that, though. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Since a new vehicle doesn't mean a new vehicle. MS. BAISLEY: Well, that's right. I mean, it could be a ten- year-old vehicle that somebody's putting on. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So -- so if you buy a brand-new Lincoln Town Car you also have to take it to an inspection? MR. FLEGAL: Well, that should be if you brought it brand new where you bought it from -- Germain or somebody they should be more than willing to say, "Oh, yeah. I'll sign your form. It's brand new. Just took it off the showroom floor." I mean, I don't see that as a big challenge here. I think we're making things a whole lot more difficult than they are. MR. PALMER: I would assume that -- a brand-new vehicle, you would presume that these things are functioning for the first 12 months. I think if you buy a used vehicle, it may be a good idea to have this inspection done before the vehicle goes into service and then every 12 months thereafter. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, that -- does -- since I don't know and we have some operators here and some in the audience -- does the insurance industry ask you to check your vehicles ever? MS. BAISLEY: They do. Mine does. Once a year I have to provide a very similar form to this. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, I would think they would. They're insuring you for a lot of money so ... MR. O'LEARY: They never ask for anything about the vehicles, but it's only common sense in the industry, if your cars not functioning, or something's wrong with it, you're going to fix it if you Page 71 July 1 O, 2001 -- if you want to run that car. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Which is exactly my point. Let the market dictate instead of government, but we will go forward with this. Any other discussion on inspection? MR. HYDE: One clarification. So this certificate would then-- once it's signed off on by a certified shop, it then must be turned in back to code enforcement; is that the issue, or is it just to maintain itself?. MR. PALMER: No. I think that they provide Maria with a copy. MR. HYDE: All right. Then that may -- we may want to look at that because if as we continue to grow and as the industry continues to grow, I hope you have a tremendous amount of storage space for paper. Because what I'm finding in just in my own operation, the amount of paper that we get and have to go through paper trail with, it's going to be very difficult for code enforcement to maintain all of these. I've got six vehicles -- I mean, you get a couple hundred vehicles, and then you've got a couple hundred sheets of paper, and it's every year and it builds. It probably would be easier to justify it with maintaining it through the records of the operator versus giving that burden again to the county. Once you know it's been checked off, fine, great, next, but to keep it. MR. PALMER: Well, that's an-- that's an option. Have it available upon request like other documents. MR. HYDE: Right, exactly. CHAIRMAN PEASE: One at a time, please. MR. FLEGAL: I think just letting the operator keep it is much easier than asking the county to keep track of another piece of paper. If they walk in and the operator can't produce it, then he's in violation of the ordinance and then, you know, come back and report to us, and we'll suspend his license. Page 72 July 1 O, 2001 MR. PALMER: Well, another alternative would be, when they come in for their annual re-registration, to have a copy of it and show it to Maria and put it back in their pocket. MS. CRUZ: I would like to see an original and not a copy. MR. PALMER: I hear ya. I hear ya. MR. FLEGAL: Well, if it's in-- if they've got it in a file when they come to renew their permit, I would think that, you know, if they have -- and I don't know how many vehicles, you know, Pat may -- I don't know if you have 10 cabs, 50 cabs -- some number. You bring 50 pieces of paper and say, "Here, I'm renewing these 50 permits anyway." And she goes, "Oh, yeah. These are all originals, and yeah -- cool." I don't see that as a big challenge to bring them in when you're coming in to write a check any way to get your permits. I don't think -- that's pretty easy. I don't think that's a lot to ask. MR. PALMER: The only question is notice to somebody in advance so that they don't come up to Maria and say, "Oh, if you just told me, I would have brought it." That kind of thing. MR. FLEGAL: Well, the ordinance says they have to come in once a year to renew the sticker. So in line with that, wherever this inspection is required if it's going to be annual, why can't you add, "Annually bring the original inspection report when you renew your permit." MR. PALMER: Yes. MR. FLEGAL' So we've already told them in advance. It's in here. You don't need to do any extra paperwork. MR. PALMER: Of course, this assumes that they read this ordinance. MR. FLEGAL' Well, they've all certified when they got a permit that they read it anyway, so that's another ... MS. CRUZ: And normally what we do, like, two months prior to renewal we send them copies of the renewal application and a Page 73 July 1 O, 2001 checklist, things that they need to -- MR. PALMER: Good. You can alert them that they've got to bring it in. Fine. MR. FLEGAL: I think that's pretty easy. I don't think that's excessive. MR. PALMER: No. MS. HU: I have a question, because I can see this coming up. Will there be a minimum time that is needed for them to have their inspections done a certain time before renewals? I mean, they can have a renewal done in February and the renewals are next year in January. MR. PALMER: Most it could be would be 364 days is if they got their inspection done the day after they picked up their certificate. MS. BAISLEY: It has to be within a year's time. MR. PALMER: That's the most it can be. MR. FLEGAL: It's got to be within a year. If they get their permit every year, then their inspection if they were on the ball would fall at the same time so they could bring that piece of paper. In other words, rather than doing an inspection, hypothetically, if you had 12 vehicles, rather than do each -- one vehicle a month, rather do them all. If my permit's due February 1st, get them all inspected in January, so I could walk in with my permits and say, "Here are my 12 inspections." MS. BAISLEY: In this industry that would be very difficult to do. If I had to run through 45 vehicles in January -- MR. FLEGAL: Well, I'm just saying, you could do them in November, December, January. You could work it in rather than say, "Oh, I only do five a month." Well, okay. You're not going to get all these other stickers until you get those done. MR. CSOGI: It'll be easy. You want to run your business. Page 74 July 1 O, 2001 MR. PALMER: The inspection that she reviews when she reissues a certificate cannot be more than one year old. MS. BAISLEY: That's right. That's fine. MR. PALMER: That's it. MS. CRUZ: I would like to see the time shorter, perhaps 30 days, 60 days. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's a heck of a lot of inspections to be MS. CRUZ: But if they know -- they don't know -- if they're adding a vehicle, they know that that vehicle has to go through inspection before we issue the permit. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm saying that's a lot of vehicles to hit the authorized repair shops all at one time. MS. CRUZ: I can understand when it's renewal and she knows - - for example, Ms. Baisley knows that she's got 20 vehicles. When January comes she's going to start doing those periodically or within six months of renewal. But if she's going to add another vehicle after renewal, that inspection report has to accompany that driver or that individual that's coming in to register the vehicle with us. But if that vehicle was licensed-- permitted with another company and that inspection was done eight months ago, I don't think we should accept that. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. If she bought a vehicle from his company, his inspection report doesn't apply because it says she has to have an inspection. So she's got to get it inspected. She can't use his inspection report if it's eight months old. It doesn't work that way. This says permit holder. She's now the permit holder. She's got to go get it inspected. That's her problem. So and in a year-- like Tom says, 365 days in a year, if the permits are renewed February 1st and she's got an inspection report dated June 1st, that's within a year. That's good. She can bring it. It Page 75 July 1 O, 2001 doesn't have to be January or December. I just think it would be nice, but as long as it's within that year, it's good. It could be dated April 1st of last year because it's still within a year period, and it would be acceptable under the ordinance. I don't see any reason to change that. I was just saying, if you had them all done at the same time, but when you have a ton of vehicles, I understand the problem. But as long as it's within that 365-day period, that's all you need to see. I don't want to make it more difficult. I just want them to bring it to you. Now, yes, it's about to run out, then fine. MS. CRUZ: Right. I wouldn't feel comfortable issuing a permit to a vehicle that it was inspected nine, ten months ago. MR. FLEGAL: Well, but right now when you renew it you're not seeing anything. MS. CRUZ: We were talking about that before. We weren't enforcing that. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. I'm just saying, right now you've been issuing for all these years and not seeing anything so that we'i'e going to let you see one that's ten months old really hasn't changed ! would still feel safe with that. I don't see a big challenge anything. there. MR. - and I'm bit tough every six bit much. opinion. PALMER: When you say -- I -- I -- it just occurred to me - not dictating anything here. This is just policy. It's a little to have a taxicab inspected by some certified inspector months. If I were driving a taxicab, I'd say, "This is a little "It seems to me a year is fine. That's my own personal MR. FLEGAL: And we drive our own personal cars, and we don't get them inspected every six months so -- and probably don't get them inspected every year. MR. PALMER: And like he said, if you've got a vehicle and something goes wrong on it and it's a safety issue, you're going to get Page 76 July 1 O, 2001 it fixed on you own initiative. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. If you have a ratty-looking taxicab, people aren't going to be calling you because by the time you pull up to the door and the windows are falling out and the fender's falling off and -- MR. PALMER: Although I've seen -- they're not going to get in hopefully. MS. CRUZ: Well, if I may add, during the inspections we did -- we did find a lot of the vehicles that were in those conditions, and they were operating. They were picking up customers. MR. FLEGAL: I understand. MR. PALMER: There are one or two raggy ones out there. MR. FLEGAL: But, you know, I think once a year is sufficient, and then you have the right to pull -- I would assume to pull an inspection any time you want, but I think making them do a, quote, required inspection once a year. I mean, you can have something inspected today, and tomorrow something could happen. MR. PALMER: Of course. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, we've all done that. We buy new cars, take them off the showroom floor, and a week later we're back there saying, "This didn't work. That didn't work." That's life. We have to live with a little bit of inconvenience. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other comments on the inspection before we go forward? MR. CSOGI: Are they going to redo the form for us to go with what the state transportation form is, or are we going to stay with this form? CHAIRMAN PEASE: We're going to use -- as I understood it, we're going to use-- MR. PALMER: I put numbers here so that you can refer to on the back correction actually to Item No. 25, and then it says, you Page 77 July 1 O, 2001 know, replace light or whatever it maybe. And I suggest that they -- these things be checked to affirmatively show that that item passed inspection. If it fails it gets an X. It's perfectly legible to anybody. MR. CSOGI: And then the repairs are going to be on the back? MR. PALMER: Yeah. Corrected action needed. The inspector can-- well, this is all from the form. I've seen forms like this. And he says, "As far as Item 18 is concerned, you must get a new light or new windshield wipers" or whatever he recommends. MR. CSOGI: Somebody's going to sign off on the back that the repair was done? MR. PALMER: Yeah. And the fact the inspector says, "You need" -- as far as Item No. 12, "You need a new battery" or whatever it is. Some of these things are self-explanatory, and some of them are not so self-explanatory. There's degrees of corrective action that may be taken to solve a problem. For example, there are a lot of things that can go wrong with a transmission. MR. CSOGI: I understand that. I just want to clarify that the form is going to have a line on it where the person that signs off on it isn't going to be a receptionist from the taxicab company. It's going to have a line that says it's going to be a certified repair shop. MR. PALMER: As the ordinance is presently written, it requires somebody that's licensed with or certified by the state called a licensed repair shop. MR. CSOGI: Okay. So that's going to be something on the back. When the repair's done, there's going to be a line on the back saying "licensed repair shop name" in there so just to clarify that. MS. HU: I'm going back to the inspection review sheet. If we get the inspection review sheet, we don't need the inspection -- the inspection checklist back. We just need the inspection sheet from the actual repair shop. Whether these guys got their things fixed or not, it's going to show on the inspection review sheet from the auto repair Page 78 July 1 O, 2001 shop, and if that's all that we're going to be requiring, then this can only be for the industry's records. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Isn't it one in the same, same document? MR. CSOGI: No. It's going to be the same document if they go to a repair shop. What we're trying to do is have the same document. If something marked off on the front of it that it needs to be repaired, they take the same document to the repair shop. The repair shop fixes it. They flip it over. They say, we repaired it, ABC Auto, and they bring it in to you. So you just got to see one piece of paper. That's it. MR. PALMER: At time of recertification. MR. CSOGI: Right. MS. HU: And that's the actual inspection review sheet certificate? MR. CSOGI: Right. MS. HU: So when someone gets -- when somebody gets -- I'm not familiar with these mechanics. When somebody goes to a repair shop and they get an inspection done on their car, does the repair shop provide them with an actual inspection sheet? MR. PALMER: No. They provide them with a receipt that says, "I fixed your transmission." MR. CSOGI: They're going to be bringing this in. This is going to be a uniform that everybody has, and they can't deviate from it. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. I think there's-- I'm getting the hint that there's two different things. First of all, the annual inspection is this. If nothing's ever found wrong, they wouldn't go see a repair shop to have a transmission fixed. MR. PALMER: Exactly. MR. FLEGAL: So when they go get the annual inspection, we're assuming if the ordinance says they have to use this sheet, this is what they're going to take. They're not just going to walk in and Page 79 July 1 O, 2001 say, "Hey, inspect my car," and then come back and say, "Gee, last month I should have taken this paper down there." They're going to take this with them when they take the vehicle because the ordinance is going to tell them they have to do that. Other than that you're probably -- I mean, when you go to inspect the records, this is all you're ever going to see or this is what they're going to bring in in February, I think it is. MS. HU: I just didn't know if-- if the auto repair shop provided something on their behalf. MR. FLEGAL: Well, it -- probably a bill. Most shops have their own form that they write out, you know, fixed transmission, repair lights, replaced tire, fixed battery for $10, $100, whatever. MR. CSOGI: Most importantly, they're going to be providing on their behalf their signature. MS. HU: And going to the answer to your question, Mr. Csogi, is that I was reading back the minutes of the 19th of June, and you were mentioning that every repair shop has a number. Is that -- MR. CSOGI: Yeah. They have a license which is given by the Florida Department of Agriculture. The reason I was saying that is when you say "licensed repair shop," it covers it because some of the taxicab companies are so large they have their own mechanics. In the State of Florida, you don't have to have a license to work on or be a mechanic. MS. HU: Only in New Jersey? MR. CSOGI: Only in New Jersey. So we wanted to make sure that there was a liability recourse that we could take. MS. HU: So that -- with that, if they include the number and the signature, would that be sufficient? MR. CSOGI: Right. Right. MR. PALMER: Chances are the receipt will cover most of the things. We cover this as proposed text on page 9, 8 through 11 as to Page 80 July 1 O, 2001 what's got to required. I don't think we've gotten there yet. But essentially says, "Look, John Brown fixed my transmission on January 31 st, 2001, and here's a receipt for the repairs." It's got the name, address, telephone number, the person that did it. It's all there on one piece of paper. MR. CSOGI: The State of Florida requires that a repair shop, if you give a receipt out, it has to have that number on it, so it will have it on it. MR. PALMER: In fact, we could actually -- I don't have it in here where you put repair shop number issued by the state whatever - - we could add that in here on page 9. MR. FLEGAL: ! thought we did that in our last workshop. MR. PALMER: I don't think we addressed that exact detail. MR. CSOGI: On the third draft, what page are you on? MR. PALMER: Page 9 up around 9, 10, 11. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I know we discussed it because we went past that. We're on page 12, but on your new document on page 11 is where we concluded. MR. PALMER: All right. Then, if you want to, we can add in their inspection station number, something like that. MR. CSOGI: You've got a line 11, name, address, and number of the inspector. PALMER: Right. CSOGI: You can just add in. PALMER: State-issued license number, whatever the telephone MR. MR. MR. phraseology is. I'll find out. MR. CSOGI: Okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other discussion on the inspection? We have 20 minutes. I don't think we'll get any of the taxis done, unfortunately. Maybe this will go quick because the discussion of the difference between taxi and charter services -- Mr. Palmer, you were Page 81 July 1 O, 2001 going to provide us a list people that have been grandfathered in. MR. PALMER: I don't have that list. It slipped my mind altogether. MS. HU: I -- I have done research on this, and the list of company names with "taxi" in or "cab" are, AOK Taxi, Maxi Taxi, Naples Taxi, and A Action Taxi. MR. FLEGAL: AOK, Maxi, Naples -- MS. HU: AOK, Maxi Taxi, Naples, and A Action; there are only four. And I also looked at the ordinance. The last ordinance which does not have that requirement, and that was Ordinance 94-33. It has the same information as the one that our current ordinance and it -- it does not have that requirement as to whether or not they have to provide service if they have that in their name. So anyone that has been -- according to what the minutes show from the previous workshop -- anyone that does not or did not have that name prior to this is fine, and I called the taxi companies, and AOK Taxi has been in business in Collier for 16 years. So they, obviously, can be grandfathered if that's what you're looking to do. Maxi Taxi has been with Collier for 25 or 26 years. They stated they started back with the Yellow and Checker. Naples Taxi started in 1980 and A Action started about seven years ago. A Action is about the only taxi company that may be a fee just because it's seven years ago is exactly the year that the ordinance was changed. So everybody -- the list of taxi companies -- not taxi companies, but charter companies that contained the name "Taxi" in it are or can be grandfathered -- grandfathered if that's what you're looking to do. MR. PALMER: That's a manageable number, and we could put a provision in here any -- we could even actually list them or just say any company that was operating prior to a specified date seven years ago would be unaffected by this provision. MS. BAISLEY: Like in the case of Naples Taxi; that changed Page 82 July 1 O, 2001 ownership. MR. CSOGI: Right. I would like something to say in there unless -- if it changes ownership, then they have to abide by the rule. MR. PALMER: We can do that. MS. HU: And -- and they did mention that to me. They changed owners a couple times, but they kept the name so -- and I believe the name is what we're after. MR. PALMER: I can understand reluctance to make all these changes on the transfer of ownership because it could be a substantial economic burden on a company to go through all this. I can -- you know, corporate records, telephone, insurance, the whole thing. It could be a burden. It's up to you, though. You could mandate that. MS. BAISLEY: On a new owner, it wouldn't be such a burden because they're going to start over anyways. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, it wipes out the sale of the asset, but as long as they don't change the intent of the business, they're fine. It doesn't change their value. Looks like what happened was Naples Taxi used to be a taxi company. MS. BAISLEY: It was. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And then when the new owners bought it MS. BAISLEY: The most recent owner did not operate a taxi. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But he got approved -- they got approved by this group to operate a charter service, not a taxi service. MS. HU: But, again, if you look at Naples Taxi, that wasn't in the ordinance, so they weren't violating anything. MS. BAISLEY: Didn't we approve him with a taxi? Didn't he come in here with a picture of a taxi, Naples Taxi? MS. CRUZ: I don't recall. MR. O'LEARY: Excuse me. He still operates that because the one he's driving now is white and blue, white with blue lettering. Page 83 July 1 O, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. O'LEARY: MS. BAISLEY: MR. O'LEARY: With a top? Yeah. He has a taxi -- It was just the opposite of what it used to be. I used to drive for Naples Taxi. They were blue bodies with white lettering. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So I guess we need to find out if he's a taxi or a charter operation. MS. CRUZ: We'll check that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Any other topics? MR. O'LEARY: I think a lot of companies are both. MR. PALMER: Not a problem if, in fact, they're operating as a taxi. The idea is here they're not supposed to be calling yourself a taxi if you are exclusively a charter service. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So you can be both. MR. PALMER: You can be both. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So he sounds like he might be in compliance then if he's doing both. MR. FLEGAL: If he's got -- any records ought to reflect whether he has an actual full taxi. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is that accurate, Pat? MS. BAISLEY: I have not seen this vehicle. I understood that he did not have taxis in operation. Have you seen it recently? MR. O'LEARY: I've seen it within the last three or four months. It's -- MR. HYDE: I'm pretty sure I've seen it too. MR. O'LEARY: It's an older model Ford LTD, and it has a blue carriage roof and blue -- blue lettering on it with white or cream- colored vehicle. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Mr. Hyde confirms that. Okay. Well, we're down to 15 minutes. Let me -- let me talk about time line on Page 84 July 10, 2001 this thing. To get this -- is it the desire of this committee to get this in the hands of the county commissioners prior to the next mailing of stickers request, you know, the paperwork that the county sends out to the operators? MR. CSOGI: What's the date on that? CHAIRMAN PEASE: When do you -- when do you send that out to -- for the renewal? MS. CRUZ: December. CHAIRMAN PEASE: December, but we certainly -- that would not be the time to unload a lot of these changes that are being discussed. I don't think 30 days is sufficient. MR. HYDE: That's not fair. CHAIRMAN PEASE: For the driver issue or the inspection issue, so is it the goal of this group to not worry about that aspect of- - when it's completed, it's completed, and then we'll put it in place, or is the goal to meet more often to get this accomplished by -- would it be October? MR. PALMER: October sounds to me like a pretty good, reasonable date. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Would October be when the commissioners approve it? MR. PALMER: I think it can probably if we -- with due diligence we could probably get it on a public hearing before the Board of County Commissioners on their last meeting in October. Seems like a very reasonable time frame to me. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does that give staff enough time if it's approved to and enact whatever is going to be enacted to get as quick -- I mean, that would not be a notice until the end of November, probably 30 days. I don't think that's a sufficient time line. MR. PALMER: Well, when do these people start coming in for their annual renewals? Page 85 July 1 O, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: January 30th. MS. CRUZ: Right. MR. PALMER: Well, if you get something out by the end of November, isn't that enough? Isn't that enough time to get a mailing out to these people by the end of November? MR. FLEGAL: What are we looking at? You say this isn't enough time to do something. The only thing we're asking them to do that's, quote, unquote an expense is this driver card; is that not right? CHAIRMAN PEASE: And the inspection through page 12 of 38 pages. MR. PALMER: Well, at that goal -- we're not -- we're having an annual inspection in there now. That's nothing new. MS. BAISLEY: They don't have the form. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. But wait a minute. MR. PALMER: But they have a whole year to get it done. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's not just the form. It is inspected by - - it takes a little bit of shuttling to get vehicles to a bona fide inspection facility. And now we do inspections four times a year. We go out and we do check all these things. That's a different issue than taking 20 cars to the mechanic's shop and shuttling back and forth. I'm just saying that I don't mind which way we want to go, and if we want to go where it needs to be done for 2002, then we're going to probably need to go to a weekly meeting on the workshops, or at least bi-weekly. Is that bi-monthly or bi-weekly? It would be bi- monthly, wouldn't it? I don't know. Bi-whatever, twice a month. MR. HYDE: If we're looking at -- and I'm just looking at how far we've gotten through page 12, if we were to take two hours or three hours and do it bi-weekly, I don't see any issue why we couldn't get it done by the end of August, put it in through staff, have staff review as we continue to go through it. Get it to county Page 86 July 10, 2001 commissioners, let's say, in the second week or-- MR. PALMER: Second meeting in October. MR. HYDE: And then have it in the beginning of October where they either approve it or they reject it or they do whatever. And at that point most of the operators and actually -- you know, I think that the gentleman's point was correct. If-- if people want to be involved in these workshops because they are public and we would hope that you would want to come in so that you know what's going on and what the changes are. Obviously, there are certain people that never show up to anything, but that's okay. At that point, if you can get it done in October, then you've already still got November and December before you get to the middle of January, as some of us really procrastinate, don't even do check requests until the 30th. Then, yeah, I don't see that that would be an issue. MR. PALMER: And I would recommend that without notice everybody get a copy of this information list. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So is everybody in favor of at least for the next couple weeks meeting weekly? Anybody have vacations scheduled that would prevent that? MR. HYDE: I've got one coming up. July 22nd through the 29th I'll be out of town. MR. PALMER: I'll be out for the 18th and the week of the 23rd starting next Wednesday and the following week. MR. FLEGAL: Me too. I'm leaving the 18th and won't be back MR. PALMER: So maybe we should get something early August. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So, like, the second week of August it looks like? MR. PALMER: First or second. Page 87 July 1 O, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: So that's a monthly. Then we're not going to get the time line for -- probably for September. MR. PALMER: Well, we may get to places in this ordinance that we pretty well breeze through some of these things. Some of this is pretty routine. We've been hung up on some pretty big issues. A lot of this stuff is sort of, relatively speaking, a lot less weighty. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. I'll buy that. All right. Any other comments on the workshop before I close it? MR. HYDE: Possible date for the next one? MS. CRUZ: I'll have to check the boardroom availability too. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Horseshoe. We'll do that at Horseshoe Drive. MS. CRUZ: Okay. MS. HU: I want to apologize for my absence at the last workshop. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yes. We took a note of it. MR. FLEGAL: We bought coffee and charged it to you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Thank you, everybody. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11:55 a.m. PUBLIC VEHICLE ADVISORY COMMITTEE BRYAN L. S. PEASE, CHAIRMAN TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN Page 88 July 1 O, 2001 COURT REPORTING, INC., BY CAROLYN J. FORD, COURT REPORTER Page 89