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PVAC Minutes 06/19/2001 RJune 19, 2001 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE PUBLIC VEHICLE ADVISORY COMMITTEE JUNE 19, 2001 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Public Vehicle Advisory Committee, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:06 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building F of the Government Complex, Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Bryan L. S. Pease Pat Baisley Clifford W. Flegal, Jr. Eric Hyde William J. Csogi ALSO PRESENT: Michelle Arnold, Code Enforcement Director Maria Cruz, Code Enforcement Specialist Tom Palmer, Assistant County Attorney Alan Walker, Bureau of Weights & Measures Page 1 June 19, 2001 (The proceedings commenced, Misters Palmer and Csogi not present.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: All right. Call the workshop to order. We have a request from the court reporter to be very sensitive in terms of not walking over one another verbally, waiting for the person to finish their thought process, and then having your thoughts interjected. Even though it is a workshop, it's a little more -- less formal, if we could do that. And we'll remind you along the way. I know if I don't, she will, and that's okay. If I -- if I'm correct, we Start -- we stopped at the bottom of page 6 under the speedometer, taxi meter. That's where we were discussing -- MS. ARNOLD: There are a couple other items on the agenda that we wanted to provide information back for it. It was a question about child transportation, whether or not there was any requirements from anyone else. And I have found-- found out information with respect to that that there is, through the children and families? -- yeah. They require them to complete an application and provide certain information for those services. So I don't think we really need to include anything in our ordinance to regulate that any further. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do they supersede our-- are there -- is their accountability more intense than ours or-- yeah. MS. ARNOLD: Probably. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. it's state -- state regulated. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is state related versus county? Through the children and families, yeah, Okay. MS. ARNOLD: And then there was also a letter that was provided to the board. Did they get copies of that from Hummeride? MR. FLEGAL: No. Page 2 June 19, 2001 MS. CRUZ: Excuse me. MS. ARNOLD: Because we sent -- let me see if I have a copy of it here. We sent them a letter regarding their advertisement, a notice of violation. And he was indicating that he wasn't providing that service. So we just wanted to provide you guys that information and know -- knowing that this is a workshop we wouldn't be taking any action. It's just information that-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: He said -- he contacted me about buying his business. So -- which we obviously don't want to be in the But -- so I would say he's not going to be advertising business. around long either. MR. FLEGAL: MS. ARNOLD: It's easy. Give him a copy of the paper. Well, and it says right on the top of his letterhead "Events marketing/promotions/advertising". MR. FLEGAL: Tom's got all that stuff, so the man has a problem. Anytime your picture is in the paper with your advertisement on your vehicle, let's not say we have false information. Stupidity ranks supreme. MS. BAISLEY: Plus, he was told up front when he got his -- MR. FLEGAL: Oh, yeah. We got him on record; he said he wouldn't do it. And he turned around and did it, and it's in the paper SO... Yeah. I just wanted to get those two things out CHAIRMAN PEASE: MS. ARNOLD: Okay. of way before we -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does anybody remember where we left on the speedometer, taxi meter issue? MR. FLEGAL: I don't -- I don't have any notes. So I would say when we got to the bottom of page 6, we were probably done. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, I think the question was, did we -- we were talking about the possibility of eliminating the taxi meter. I Page 3 June 19, 2001 know there was some discussion about that and whether or not -- because Marco was already doing that, if it was essential to have a meter in the cab. Did we come to a resolution on that? MR. FLEGAL: I guess my question would be if you don't have a meter, how is the person riding in the cab going to know what it costs? MS. ARNOLD: Are you talking for charter services, if they switch from taxi to charter? CHAIRMAN PEASE: No. I'm talk-- well, that could be that they've done that, but I'm not sure. But they still have "cab" in their name, and if they-- I thought if they have "cab" in the name, they couldn't be a charter. But I guess Naples Taxi was one we talked about. Who are the ones out on the island? MS. ARNOLD: You mean people that have "taxi" in their name and they're not providing that service? CHAIRMAN PEASE: They're -- they're selling it as a charter service -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- not a taxi service. MS. CRUZ: You've got Classic Taxi -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MS. CRUZ: -- that I can think of that's -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: There's a-- there's a-- MS. CRUZ: They're not-- MS. BAISLEY: There's another one with an A. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yes. A Action. MS. BAISLEY: A Action. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Those are three that have "cab" in the name. Do -- do they have taxi licenses or-- MS. CRUZ: No. They're strictly charter services. CHAIRMAN PEASE: They're all charter. And is there Page 4 June 19, 2001 something in the ordinance that states that they can't have taxi in the name? MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MS. CRUZ: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And so what are we doing about that from staff position? MS. ARNOLD: We hadn't done anything, as far as I know. MS. BAISLEY: I think the way we left it is Tom Palmer was supposed to check out and see if some of people had been grandfathered in because Maxi Taxi was grandfathered in. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. But -- but we've in effect grandfathered them in or not by renewing their license every year? MS. ARNOLD: Essentially, yeah. MS. BAISLEY: I think he was going to check on that too. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. All right. We'll defer to that. MS. BAISLEY: And you didn't like the idea of grandfather -- MR. FLEGAL: Well, there is no such thing as a grandfather clause in the statutes in the State of Florida so -- I know I've looked, and I've asked many attorneys. There is no such statute that says you're grandfathered in for something. MR. HYDE: Right. There can be an exemption or an addendum made to it -- Right. There is no such thing as a grandfather MR. FLEGAL: clause. MS. ARNOLD: Usually it -- it's not really called grandfathering in. It is -- if somebody is existing, whether it's a building or a -- a business or something exists and then the ordinance changes to make it nonconforming, a lot of people use that as, "Oh, then I'm grandfathered because I was legally existing prior to you changing the rules to make me no longer comply with the rules." and people call it grandfathering, but it's mostly legal nonconformities that are Page 5 June 19, 2001 created. So what Tom probably would have to determine is if those businesses were in place prior to us changing the ordinance to say you can't have taxi in your name. MR. FLEGAL: Normally that works because you write into your ordinances or whatever your changes that things that exist prior to the date of incorporating this, they are still permitted. The fact the law changed after a date just doesn't automatically mean you don't have to do it. MS. BAISLEY: I think it was written in one of these ordinances, and in all the revisions it got dropped out. MS. ARNOLD: There was some dates or something in some of the others. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So when Mr. Palmer comes, maybe we can have further discussion on that. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. Because if it was dropped out, then it's -- then they're in noncompliance. MS. ARNOLD: Uh -huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. 1 -- 142-32, No. 2. My -- my comment on this is that somewhere along the way our ordinance has went past maybe our realm. And I guess my question is, is it the county's responsibility as a -- to say that you have to have a clean interior? It should be a business practice you have a clean interior. It's certainly -- in a competitive situation it's important. But is it the county's requirement to -- to state that they have to be clean and no torn upholstery or torn floor covering? None of those are safety issues; they're aesthetic issues. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I think here, also, from the -- because you're transporting the public, I think it's probably within the county's purview to make sure that whatever is transporting the public is clean and sanitary so that people aren't getting in and you sit down and there's a hole in the seat and the next thing you know, you know, you Page 6 June 19, 2001 -- people are ripping their clothes or-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: But is that a safety issue? MR. FLEGAL: Well, it could be. I mean, you know, if there's a tear in the seat and you stick your hand down in there accidentally and you rip a finger off because it got caught on the springs, sure. And you got elderly people, and you got kids that ride in these things. So, you know, I don't think it's hurting anybody. You're protecting the public. I know it's a -- it's a nice business thing, but we all know that we have unscrupulous business people. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I just wonder how many taxis you can get into and don't find torn seat in this county. MS. BAISLEY: Well, they went through them all. MS. ARNOLD: Uh -huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Did they? MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. MS. BAISLEY: Painstakingly went through them all. MS. ARNOLD: Like, there's -- there -- and what we've done, because we really didn't have, like, a-- a checklist. And the ordinance says, like, every six months, really, that we're supposed to be provided information with respect to them going through an inspection. But we had -- when we were doing the meter tests, we had someone from facilities office or actually fleet man -- management doing checks on making sure the exhaust was appropriate and -- and different types of things. And we checked to - - to make sure things were clean, if there were doorknobs on the doors, because there's instances that people get in, and they can't get back out of those vehicles because there's no doorknobs. So I think it's something that -- and we didn't issue permits. We don't issue permits if there's something wrong with it that's fixable that they can come back then and get a -- a permit for. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Obviously, I think exhaust, secured Page 7 June 19, 2001 properly, and doorknobs, from a safety -- those are safety standpoints. I won't belabor it. I just think we may have just stretched beyond what our intent is. But if there's not consensus on this, I'll continue. Any comments on three? (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Four? (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Five. (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Six? Six, one operator that I do recall on a fax he sent me that was from USA, Mr. Bridenthal, he suggested having the rates posted on the outside of the cab. Does anybody -- do you have a thought on that? MS. BAISLEY: That's how it's done in most major cities; they're right on the outside of the door. CHAIRMAN PEASE: As a cab operator, I mean, do you have a preference on that? MS. BAISLEY: I don't have a problem with it. But those stickers all over the windows of the car, I think, are dangerous because they're limiting the view in some respects to people that are trying -- the driver who is trying to see gets stickers in the way. MS. ARNOLD: They're not supposed to be on the windows? State law, they have to be mounted on the MR. WALKER: windows. MS. ARNOLD: I thought they were supposed to be one on the dash and one on the -- the back-- MR. WALKER: What you could do is you could technically mount one on the dash and then mount one behind the seat. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. WALKER: Put it in a clear plastic slip-on; that would be Page 8 June 19, 2001 acceptable to the state. MS. BAISLEY: But there's stickers on the windows, and then we have the other decals on the windows for people to call if they have a complaint. And I think that limits the view out of the windows for the driver. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What's the law you're referencing? MR. WALKER: Florida Statute 531 is what covers it. And we get ours out of NIST Handbook 44. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And can you give that Florida Statute again? MR. WALKER: 531. CHAIRMAN PEASE: 531, NIST Handbook, No. 44. MR. WALKER: If you would like a copy of it before we leave today, there's everything that pertains to taxicabs in this. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That would be great. Is it on line, or do you know? MR. WALKER: Yes. Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN PEASE: To my Florida dot com or-- MR. WALKER: I think you can find it through it there, yes. Go to the Bureau of Weights and Measures. MS. BAISLEY: I think it would be easier and less expensive if we had them on the front, like he says, or-- in the front compartment area and then on the back in a plastic sheet like Alan had indicated. MR. WALKER: A lot of the counties have the clear plastic -- it's like a shield or a cover, and you can slide it into there, like -- like my ID slides in and out. It keeps customers from drawing on it. So that would be acceptable to the state, as long as it's viewable by the passengers in the back seat. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do they -- they con -- oh, it has to be viewable in the back seat even if it's posted on the side of the car? MR. WALKER: (Nodded head.) Page 9 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't know -- I don't know the advantage or disadvantage to having it on the side of the car to the -- so it's up -- I mean -- MS. BAISLEY: I don't either. I mean, it's probably better if it's inside the car because the passenger's going to see it more often. MS. ARNOLD: I was just going to -- I was echo -- echoing the same sentiments. You know, when I'm getting in the car, I'm not really reading what's on the door. I'm going to be more concentrating on what's on the back seat or what's on the dash or whatever. MS. BAISLEY: Exactly. MR. HYDE: Okay. If you-- and even if you were to go a step further if there is a rate change, and let's say it happens this year, it happens next year, if you're actually putting labeling on the outside of the vehicle, the cost to remove it and then put -- go over the top of it, if it's a simple insertion, that can be something that could be done relatively quickly. I think that would be better off to the operators. (Mr. Csogi entered the room.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Good morning, Mr. Csogi. We're on page 7, moving from Point 6 to No. 7. MR. CSOGI: Thank you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Anybody on 8? Again, my comment, no decorations or other objects permitted to hang in the vehicle for hire, I guess that could be deemed safety from the standpoint of it hanging on the mirror. Is that why that's in there? MS. BAISLEY: I don't know. But at Christmastime I saw a few of my competitors' cabs with Christmas decorations all over the inside of the vehicles. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I mean-- MS. BAISLEY: I mean, the windows were just covered with them. It really looks tacky. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Number 9, exhaust. Page 10 June 19, 2001 Any comments on No. 10, tires? We're moving now. We're on page 8. (Mr. Palmer entered the room.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Mr. Palmer, we're on page 8, No. 11. But if we could backtrack just a little bit -- and-- and are there things that we had talked to you about previously about getting information on and -- and one question, I think, that we talked about earlier was a taxicab versus charter. If you -- were there any companies that were grandfathered in that are -- have a charter license but are -- taxi is in their name? Maxi Taxi was one. Were you asked to follow up on that? MR. PALMER: that. I don't recall having any -- any research on CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: I wouldn't know the information. That would be in the records of whoever keeps the records. I -- I don't have that information. MR. FLEGAL: I think our main question was there are -- there are some companies that have the word "taxi" in their name and are not, quote, unquote, a taxi, which is in violation of the ordinance. Is there a way that they could be -- that they were grandfathered in to keep that name or -- MR. PALMER: Well, that would happen if, in fact, they had that name before this pro -- this provision was put in the ordinance and they hadn't changed the name subsequent. If they changed the name, it wouldn't be grandfathered. But if they had the name they had before, that provision went in the ordinance, the ordinance wouldn't have recollected application. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Including a change of ownership? MR. PALMER: Well, if the change of ownership changed the name, then it would not be a grandfather situation. If it's just a Page 11 June 19, 2001 transfer of the company with no change of name and the name existed before that provision, then that name would be all right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. What we have are -- just to refresh your memory, we have four that we know of, maybe more, operators who have a charter license but have "taxi" or "cab" in their name, which is against the ordinance. But we have approved them every year, we being the county, when they get their stickers. MR. PALMER: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So, in effect, we've blessed these, but we'd like to -- to eliminate any future. So I guess the comment was, can we have something in the ordinance that says that effective this date, you cannot have and that those that have previously are accepted, or how does that work? We don't want any more, but yet we don't want -- MR. PALMER: There won't be any more because staff will not approve any more. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But have we set a precedent? MR. PALMER: No. The fact that you renew a license annually doesn't -- doesn't acquiesce. It just continues the status quo, which is if you had the name of the business prior to the provision coming into the ordinance, the ordinance did not require that the -- that the company-- the preexisting company change its name. MS. ARNOLD: Well, the question is when -- when did the -- when was the ordinance changed to include that provision or restriction within the -- reg? MR. PALMER: Well, we can find that out. MS. ARNOLD: -- within the reg? MR. PALMER: We can find that out easily enough. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: That was probably about six years ago, the best of my recollection, but I can--I can-- Page 12 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: I believe -- I believe you're correct. And then we can check to see -- If any of these businesses preexisted. Yeah. Yeah. It was -- normally in order to make a business change its name, you would give it some kind of a reasonable grace period. And I don't have any idea the expenses attendant to doing that to a business, like a corporation can change a corporate name by going through certain processes. You have to notify the secretary of state in Tallahassee, and anything you have to do with the stationery and phones and everything else would have to be changed in the name. Depending on the size of the business, it could be a substantial investment. If it's a sole proprietor, it's not a huge deal. But if it's like Yellow Cab or something like that, it could be a major expense or one of the larger companies. I just used that as an example. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. Is that something that we need to put on our regular docket for discussion and a decision as far as how we want to direct staff?. MS. BAISLEY: I think we probably should. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Can we put that on the agenda, please? MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Any-- anything else you have, Mr. Palmer, before we continue on with the ordinance? MR. PALMER: No. Has everybody gotten the second draft? CHAIRMAN PEASE: The only one I'm working on is the first draft. MR. PALMER: The second draft is a draft that I incorporated all of the changes you made last time. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I've not received that. Page 13 June 19, 2001 MS. ARNOLD: We didn't either. MR. FLEGAL: We haven't seen that so ... MR. PALMER: Well, I e-mailed it the day I got it -- the day I did it. Well, I'll get it to you. It does -- the changes that -- that -- that we haven't gotten to are the same as in the first draft. What I did is I incorporated in the second draft the changes this board addressed the last meeting. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We have -- our next meeting, regular meeting, is-- MS. CRUZ: July 10th. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- July 10th. What we can do is after that meeting we'll maybe go into a workshop, and we'll have Mr. Palmer review those changes, if that's all right with everybody. MR. PALMER: After today's meeting I will get a third draft out to Michelle, e-mail it to her. And then she can disseminate the third draft to everybody. And that will go up to however we get today. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: I'll incorporate all of those changes into this draft. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Page 8, No. 11, any comments, questions, problems? (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Number 127 MR. PALMER: Are we talking about paragraph 127 CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thirteen? (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: Fourteen? MS. ARNOLD: Oh, I had a question with 12. Why were we removing the display of permits? CHAIRMAN PEASE: We should not. That should-- that Page 14 June 19, 2001 should be in there. That -- he -- what he did was he took everybody's notes and consolidated them. MS. ARNOLD: So we should put that back in. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That -- that remains. Thank you for pointing that out. MR. PALMER: Well, I was advised that the vehicle permits were not displayed. What was displayed was the decal. And if-- I didn't even -- the last I heard is the vehicle permits, in fact, have not been displayed in the taxicab. If they are, fine. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You're right. MR. FLEGAL: Aren't the decals on the bumpers or on the -- and one on the windshield, but the actual permit is not displayed -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's correct. MR. PALMER: That's what I was told, and that's why this was taken out. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. That's what I thought. MR. PALMER: Because we were -- we were not making a distinction between a decal and a permit. MR. FLEGAL: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yeah. Good point. Good point. Fourteen. Fourteen, again, my only comment was about the -- the bus, the -- the trial balloon that somebody's trying in New York where they're claiming a 20-passenger limo is a bus and not under the direction of a -- of a limousine permit situation. Fifteen? Okay. And the purpose, Mr. Palmer, for taking out that one section -- that one line is because, I assume, because of subcontracted vehicles, you would not have the control to -- to have that inspection or-- MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: that out. It's all inclusive. Yeah. It's actually more inclusive by taking Page 15 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: All right. And we're going to do it once a year when the stickers come out; right? MR. PALMER: That's what the presently expressed intent is. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Page 9, B, any questions, comments, problems? MR. PALMER: Well, 9 A evidences an intention to come up with this list, this internally generated inspection list. I'm not sure that existed today. The idea is that that way there will be -- everybody would have a common ground as to what it is they need to have checked by the mechanic. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. We did that -- we did that with this last inspection. MR. PALMER: Okay. Well, then it's in place. The idea was that everybody would -- every mechanic would have the same standards to apply so Mechanic A didn't do one thing and Mechanic B another, and nothing would be consistent. MS. ARNOLD: Well, we developed a list based on what is identified in the ordinance. And if something fails, we check that off and provide it to the driver so the driver knows what needs to be corrected. MR. PALMER: Oh. Well, I -- the way it reads now is the obligation to have a -- to have a mechanic do the inspection is the -- is the person responsible for the vehicle, that they would do it, take it to the mechanic, take the county's checklist, have it inspected, and have to -- have to pass the checklist. Anything on the checklist that failed would have to be corrected so that it passed the checklist. Also, Chapter 316 has a little list of things that these vehicles must have. The reason I put that in there is, there's nothing in Chapter 16 now that does -- isn't included in this ordinance, but Chapter 16 should be amended next year and add something else, it would automatically be incorporated by reference into the ordinance. Page 16 June 19, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: But the operators would need to be provided with that list that the county has developed for the standards. MR. PALMER: Right. They should take that list and give it to their mechanic and say, "Check this car off of this list." uh-huh. That's the idea. MS. BAISLEY: Is -- is it the intent of the county to do yearly inspections like you just did on the taxicabs? MS. ARNOLD: That's what I'd like to do, I mean, so that we have the same person looking at it rather than -- MR. PALMER: The county would have -- supply the mechanic? MS. ARNOLD: Well, that's what we did this time. MR. PALMER: Well, did we pay for it, or-- MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. MR. PALMER: We did? MS. ARNOLD: Yeah, I paid for it. MR. PALMER: Oh. Well, see, this -- then that requires an amendment to 15 because that's not what 15 says. MS. BAISLEY: Exactly. MR. PALMER: So that's-- MS. ARNOLD: But we didn't do the repairs. I mean -- MR. PALMER: No, of course not. MS. ARNOLD: -- we just did the inspection. MR. PALMER: Of course not. That would be great, just repairing these cabs for people. In fact, that would probably be illegal. We can't be subsidizing private enterprise. But if you want to go ahead, and you say each an auto -- that each certificate holder shall cause each such vehicle to be inspected by an automobile mechanic selected by the county. MS. ARNOLD: Well, I mean, if we leave it the way it is, it kind of-- it -- if-- if we do it, then we can do it. And if they do it and Page 17 June 19, 2001 provide us with that same checklist, then -- MR. PALMER: Well, you want it to be their election? MS. ARNOLD: Well, it doesn't say either -- MR. PALMER: Right now it leaves it open. MS. ARNOLD: Right now it says that we have to have -- MR. PALMER: That's right. They -- right now they can either go to the county's mechanic, if the county has one, on -- on sort of like contract, or their own mechanic. CHAIRMAN PEASE: services? MS. ARNOLD: MR. FLEGAL: Did you have somebody from fleet Yeah. Fleet management did it. Question I would raise: If the county does the inspection and they miss something, can-- and my vehicle has an accident or something and that's the cause of it, can I then turn around and sue the county because they did the inspection? MR. PALMER: No. They -- as far as I know, these are independent contractors, aren't they? No. It was the -- someone that was hired by fleet MS. ARNOLD: management. MR. PALMER: ARNOLD: PALMER: FLEGAL: MS. MR. MR. business. MR. PALMER: the county is going to contractor where he's not responsible. He's MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: But a contract. It wasn't a county employee. No. It was a county employee. Oh. Well, then that raises another issue. See, I don't think the county should be in that No. I -- I -- I would much recommend that if have a mechanic, it have it as an independent responsible for what he does and the county is not an agent of the county. I think it should stay like it is. Don't you think it would be easier if the county provided the operators with a form of what they -- and it was taken to Page 18 June 19, 2001 a certified shop or whatever? MR. PALMER: That is what is the intention of the -- MS. BAISLEY: And the operator had to provide that form for each vehicle that they had to the county once a year or whatever is required. MR. PALMER: That's what the -- my intention was here. This auto mechanic here, I did not envision that this would have any relationship with the county, this mech -- this is -- MS. BAISLEY: And it takes the liability of the county out of it. MR. PALMER: No. It takes any question of the liability. MS. BAISLEY: Yeah. MR. CSOGI: Mr. Palmer, I would like to see -- instead of mechanic, I would like to see a licensed repair shop. I don't know if anybody else has that -- because, I mean, he can pick up a wrench and call himself a mechanic. It really doesn't give any weight to what he's looking at in an automobile. And this is -- this is -- in the way it's saying it, it's more for the taxicab companies where they can just hire somebody and say, "Yeah. You're my mechanic" and look the stuff over and you sign off on it, and the guy really doesn't know what he's looking at. And -- and I'm -- I'm -- I'm a mechanic. I've been one for 16 years, and I've got some of the highest credentials in the business. And a lot of my fellow mechanics, we're trying to get an awareness of the industry, and we think we should be licensed. MR. PALMER: There's no licensing of mechanics? MR. CSOGI: Not in Florida, only in New Jersey is the only state in the country. MS. BAISLEY: If you put that, then nobody would be able to inspect it. MR. CSOGI: No. We would have -- all I want it to say is a repair shop because with a repair shop you have a recourse through Page 19 June 19, 2001 the Department of Agriculture to make sure they carry a certain amount of standards as a repair shop. MR. PALMER: Are you saying an automobile mechanic employed by a licensed repair shop? MR. CSOGI: I would like to say a licensed repair shop because a licensed repair shop is going to sign off on it, not a mechanic. CHAIRMAN PEASE: My -- my only question, though, you're big that you may have your own mechanic. I don't. But you've got enough vehicles, and there may be others that have their own mechanic -- MR. CSOGI: They've got to have a permit to repair cars if they have their own mechanic. MS. BAISLEY: That's right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. So that would be fine for you. MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. MR. PALMER: Well, what I -- I -- we need to nail -- I understand your issue. We want to nail this down. The reason I put automobile mechanic in here is, this is the language used in Chapter 316. MR. CSOGI: Right. MR. PALMER: And I assumed that-- and incorrectly, apparently, that a mechanic had some sort of bone fides. MR. CSOGI: No. MR. PALMER: Well, if that's the case, then we -- we want to nail this down, like you say, to somebody who is prima facie qualified. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What was your suggested wording? MR. CSOGI: Well, what State of Florida requires for a licensed automobile repair shop. And that's through the Department of Agriculture; you have to get a permit. CHAIRMAN PEASE: A licensed auto repair shop. Page 20 June 19, 2001 MR. CSOGI' -- auto repair shop, the State of Florida. They've gone through the correct steps to become -- to get the permit. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Did -- would this -- okay. Never mind. I withdraw that question. I don't think -- MR. PALMER: Everybody call mechanics, or are you talking about a -- some sort of qualified individual employed by a licensed repair shop? You don't like the word "mechanic," or do you want to say "mechanic" or "other qualified inspector"? MR. CSOGI: No. It's too vague. ! want licensed automotive repair shop in the State of Florida so they can sign off on it. And it's for two reasons. It's for liability reasons, like Mr. Flegal brought up. And then, too, they have to go by a certain set of standards so if we know a licensed repair shop is signing off on it, we know that they -- they're qualified enough to -- to look at the cars. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And that's a state license, not a county license. MR. CSOGI: Both. You have to get a county and a state. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, the county's license would be an-- would be an occupational. MR. CSOGI: But you also have to get a state Department of Agriculture. MR. FLEGAL: I like the words "licensed auto repair shop." I understand what he's saying, and I-- MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. Yeah. MR. FLEGAL: And I think that would be a good change. MR. PALMER: Well, now a licensed repair shop is a -- is a business. It's a build -- it's a building. What person -- or are you talking about inspected and-- MR. CSOGI: The owner of the company. MR. PALMER: -- and certified as -- Page 21 June 19, 2001 MR. CSOGI: In other words, if I say licensed auto repair shop, in other words, if you're signing it, you're signing it as the agent of that repair shop. Your employees may have done the work. They may have said, "Boss, this car checks out. Here's the checkout sheet." you can sign it now, as owner of the licensed repair shop. In other words, the owner of that shop has to sign off on it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm not sure if I agree with the owner, because you take it to Tamiami Ford, you're -- MS. BAISLEY: That's right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- you've got to go to the owner to get -- MS. BAISLEY: Yeah. That's not going to happen. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- to get that approval? MS. BAISLEY: That's not going to happen. MR. CSOGI: The service manager is going to be the person -- MS. BAISLEY: Right. MR. CSOGI: -- that's going to be on the license. You have to go to the service manager, yes. MR. HYDE: Yeah. It would need to be the agent of the owner MR. CSOGI: Right. MR. HYDE: Because what you're really asking for is that the business is licensed so that you know that you're dealing with a reputable company versus somebody that just walks in and signs on it. And then there's also a-- a -- you know, a permit, and then you know exactly that that's what -- that they're there. Then the entity itself employs individuals that they feel are up to the standard, and that's the obligation of that business to provide those individuals, like the ASAE (sic) mechanic certified and all this other stuff. MS. ARNOLD: So you just leave it at shop, then it would imply that -- a representative of that shop. You wouldn't necessarily have to say the agent or the owner or whatever. Page 22 June 19, 2001 MR. CSOGI: It would have to be a -- a true representative of the shop, though-- MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. MR. CSOGI: -- something that's on the permit or something like that, not someone that they could just say, "Hey, you're my rep now this week.". MR. HYDE: No. MR. PALMER: Okay. I -- I've got it. I'm going to say inspected and certified as passing inspection by a licensed repair shop MS. MR. MS. vehicles, MR. MR. MS. PALMER: BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL' MR. PALMER: for hire. MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: BAISLEY: And these -- PALMER: -- at least once every six-- BAISLEY: These standards would apply to all for-hire not just taxicabs. FLEGAL: Right. Oh, yeah. Because so far we've only done taxicabs. No. They should apply to everybody. CHAIRMAN PEASE: This is for both. Well, we're -- we're talking here each vehicle Period. Now, that's everybody. I understand. What I'm saying is all that they have inspected is taxicabs. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Oh, really? Okay. MR. CSOGI: Yeah, I don't know why. MS. BAISLEY: And yours isn't taken in there; right? CHAIRMAN PEASE: They got taken in and looked at, but I don't know if they was inspected. MS. BAISLEY: Oh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We just sent drivers over. Page 23 June 19, 2001 MR. PALMER: Well, that's interesting because this provision has not -- has always addressed vehicle for hire and was never limited to taxicabs. MS. ARNOLD: Well, the -- and it was always the responsibility of the -- MS. BAISLEY: The owner. MS. ARNOLD: -- company so we could ask you for that information -- MS. BAISLEY: That's right. MS. ARNOLD: -- rather than you asking. MR. CSOGI: We tried that, and it didn't work. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Are we ready to go forward or -- MR. HYDE: Would -- would -- one other thing then. If we're -- if we're asking for a signed document that would then be provided by the county or by staff, I'm sure that there's going to, then, be a charge for this inspection. MR. PALMER: Oh, sure. People aren't going to do it for free. MR. HYDE: Right. MR. FLEGAL: That's the cost of doing business. MR. HYDE: That can be any charge that they want to come up with. MR. PALMER: Well, I -- I don't know whether negotiable -- you walk into a shop and the guy says, "That will be $150; that's the - - that's the rate. Take it or leave it." I don't know how it works. MR. CSOGI: I think for a safety inspection, normally it's going to be an hour or less time. So it's going to be about $60. MR. PALMER: Is that about what the time is? MR. CSOGI: Yeah. For a safe -- most places do it for free. I mean, but I'd say a minimum of 30 but a maximum of 60. I mean, it's just not that much. Page 24 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: So this form that we're talking about you supplying to the owners will have a signature line for them to sign? MS. ARNOLD: We can add that, yeah. MR. PALMER: I recommended at the top of page 9 when it says "signed by the inspecting mechanic," to say "and signed by the qualified inspector." . MR. CSOGI: Can we also add to have their Department of Agriculture number on there? MR. PALMER: Oh, yeah. We can put that on the form, sure. MR. CSOGI: Yeah. That way we can double-check that they are who they are. MR. PALMER: And you can add on the form that the number must be inserted. In other words, it's not optional. You have a list for -- the Department of Agriculture number must be inserted. MR. CSOGI' Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Anything else on-- MR. PALMER: What I would recommend is that when that form -- the next formal meeting of the board, I'd recommend that that form be formally approved by the board. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's a good suggestion. Another item for the agenda, please. Anything else on A? (No response.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: B? MR. CSOGI: I think 15 days is a little lean to get repairs done. CHAIRMAN PEASE: They're out of service, though. That vehicle is out of service till they get it repaired; correct? MS. ARNOLD: Well, we need clarification on that because there was a question that was raised with that, you know, if-- if-- we didn't, of course, issue the certificate. But we didn't have, really, anything that -- in the ordinance that says, okay, we don't issue the -- Page 25 June 19, 2001 the certificate in the event the inspection is not passed. And there was a question whether or not they could get the -- the permit and then, you know, have the 15 days to comply. And there are certain things that you probably don't want to have that 15-day time period because of emergency-type thing. You don't want to issue a permit if it's something mechanical that is affecting the -- the safety of the passengers. MR. HYDE: Brakes. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: And my attitude is, if I know I'm coming up for renewal of my certificate and I have questions about my vehicle, it behooves me to get the vehicle inspected in time so that it's not going to fail the renewal of my certificate because of a -- of a mechanical problem. And I -- and we could put in here that, in fact, no certificate will be renewed unless a recent inspection is submitted to the -- to the staff. But that is going to require -- are these things done all -- every month or once a year? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Once a year in January. MR. PALMER: See, the problem with that is that means everybody is getting the inspection done in December. There's no -- you know, no -- part in January, part in February, part in March. So if somebody has a problem and they want to make sure that they're not going to have their -- they're going to get their license renewed, then everybody is going to -- they have any question about their vehicle, they are going to go in and get it inspected within some reasonable time prior to January. MS. ARNOLD: You would think that, but even when we sent out notices, this -- this list, you know, when we were doing the meter checks, we sent it out what? A month before. People did not do anything with their vehicles, and they brought it. MR. FLEGAL: I -- I -- I think time period should be left. It's a Page 26 June 19, 2001 business. And if you want to stay in business, comply. Don't come in and say, "Gee, I need more time." as Michelle says, past history shows these people don't want to do it, period. They just want to have a vehicle and put people in it and collect money, and they don't want to do anything. I'm sorry. Yellow Taxi, great business. I've used them, you know. There's a couple of really good businesses. But if we look at permits we issue, there's a lot of these one-ors. And these people are going to have to get on the ball or get out of the business. Sorry. We're trying to protect the public. Either get your vehicle inspected in so many days, or you don't get a certificate, the end. MS. ARNOLD: But I think what we need to put in there, for clarification purposes, is that we're not going to issue the permit if there's not a passed -- MR. PALMER: All right. The question is, how old can the certificate -- can it be instead 90 days old? Can it be six months old? That's the issue. MS. ARNOLD: I would have to defer that to what you guys usually -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, does B -- B doesn't necessarily apply only to this annual inspection, does it? MR. PALMER: No. CHAIRMAN PEASE: B could be anytime, right. MR. CSOGI: Except if they do a spot inspection. That's what I was thinking about. That's why I said the 15 days is lean. But I didn't know you sent notices out. I just thought it was a spot inspection. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I do agree, Mr. Palmer, that the -- the permit issue needs to be in to cover staff on that part. MR. PALMER: All right. I'll -- if we need to get specific on this -- but I believe that there may be another provision in here that Page 27 June 19, 2001 says that certificates will not be renewed unless this ordinance is being complied with, which is a more general statement. If that's not in here, we can put it in here, but I think it is. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does -- also -- does -- is there anywhere it says that vehicle is out of service until it's repaired? Because I don't see that in B. MR. PALMER: Then you're getting into a sticky issue. The state law has -- has laws about not having vehicles on the road, Chapter 316, that don't meet certain criteria. And there's an issue of whether or not that's been preempted to the state and whether or not we can superimpose something beyond that. The state basically talks about when vehicles can and cannot go on the road. We can say that the vehicle could not be used in the business of certi -- of-- of-- of vehicles for hire. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. That would be legitimate, don't you think, Eric? They can still drive it to a mechanic place, but they can't put passengers on board. MR. PALMER: Yeah. They cannot transport people or property for-- for consideration. MS. CRUZ: And how do we in the county control that? MR. PALMER: Well, that's a different issue. That's an enforcement or discovery issue. A lot of these things are not -- there's no vehicle for them to come to your attention. MS. BAISLEY: But some of these things are ridiculous things. A little dent in the bumper is going to take the vehicle out of service - MR. PALMER: Well, I don't know that a dent in the bumper is one of the things that disqualifies a vehicle. MS. BAISLEY: One of ours had a cracked bumper, you know, how the plastic part is in the bumper, well, it was cracked, and that was one of the things that my vehicles was written up for. Page 28 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: You mean the plastic covering, cosmetic covering? MS. BAISLEY: Yes. MS. CRUZ: That is part of the ordinance. MS. BAISLEY: That vehicle would be taken out of service for transporting passengers until that plastic piece was replaced. MS. CRUZ: I do not recall if we pulled the permit on that particular vehicle. I do remember we pulled several stickers from your vehicles, one being that the tire was -- the tread was worn down, and there was -- the mechanic considered that one a safety issue, so we went ahead and -- MS. BAISLEY: I'm not talking about safety issues. I'm talking about cosmetic things. MS. CRUZ: I don't remember -- excuse me, I don't remember where we pulled any stickers on any cosmetics issues. CHAIRMAN PEASE: The only thing that I can see where that might -- are they using 5, page 7, No. 5, as the reason for that cosmetic trim? And if so, that just says that if it endangers a pedestrian. MR. PALMER: Yeah. This is talking about a sharp edge, something that may catch on. MS. BAISLEY: We need to have an understanding that, you know, just because you have a dent in your bumper doesn't mean it's going to hurt somebody. MS. ARNOLD: Right. But I think the -- the fact that the ordinance identifies it and if it was noted as something that wasn't passing, we need to note that on the inspection. Now, whether or not not. MS. BAISLEY: Right. MS. ARNOLD: -- we're going pull your permit for it, probably Page 29 June 19, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. MS. ARNOLD: But if we -- if we didn't mark it and something did happen, I think, you know, that would give your business cause to come back and say, "Well, you guys didn't mark my dent -- my bumper was damaged and didn't meet" -- I mean, it's your responsibility to do some of these cosmetic things for the protection of the -- the passengers. MS. BAISLEY: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I believe that can be resolved, too, by us reviewing the form and saying, okay, is this the -- is this form, you know, have the correct items, and that will eliminate that possibility. MS. BAISLEY: Well, see, we weren't provided with the forms MR. PALMER: brakes, dents-- MS. BAISLEY: CHAIRMAN PEASE: I understand. MS. BAISLEY: -- before the vehicles were inspected. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I -- I agree. MS. BAISLEY: So the only thing I -- MR. PALMER: Where is the -- MS. BAISLEY: The only thing -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: One at a time, please. MR. FLEGAL: Here it is. MS. CRUZ: The form was made out-- Well, see it's qualifying. It's -- it's -- it's cracks, Right. MR. PALMER: -- which may endanger pedestrians or passengers. MS. BAISLEY: MR. PALMER: dent. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's dangerous then. Yeah. So it's not just an ordinary cosmetic Right. So a plastic cover above the Page 30 June 19, 2001 bumper shouldn't have been an item that -- but we can clarify that with the list itself I think. Okay. Are we still on B, or are we ready to go to C? Are we happy with 15 days? MR. PALMER: That's not a change. All I did was add the word "fifteen.". MR. FLEGAL: Right. I think that's -- stays. CHAIRMAN PEASE: C? MS. CRUZ: Can we go back to B? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Uh-huh. MS. CRUZ: I like -- I don't mind the 15 days, but I'd like to see something in there that if it is a safety issue the 15 days will not apply and will have to take immediate action or something like that. MS. ARNOLD: Well, we -- we're going to add something in there about that they cannot operate it for vehicle for hire, right, if in the event they -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MS. ARNOLD: So they got-- the 15 days, yeah, so we would pull the permit. MS. CRUZ: Okay. MS. ARNOLD: So the 15 days is the time frame that they have to correct whatever problem is identified. MR. CSOGI: When you do pull the permit, do you take the stickers off the car? MS. CRUZ: Uh-huh. MR. CSOGI: Okay. Is that going to be in here? That's a given? MR. FLEGAL: I think that's administrative. I don't think the ordinance should get that technical. MR. PALMER: That is a fine detail. MR. CSOGI: Well, you know, there's going to be a cost involved in pulling the sticker off. I didn't know if it was a lot of Page 31 June 19, 2001 money for the stickers? MS. BAISLEY: They just put the sticker back on again. MS. CRUZ: Yeah. MR. CSOGI: Oh, they do? MS. CRUZ: Yeah. MR. CSOGI: Oh, okay. MS. CRUZ: They would have the 15 days to come back, and then we will replace-- MR. CSOGI: So you put a new sticker on or the same one? involved MS. holder. MS. MR. CRUZ: CRUZ: Right. No, a new sticker. CSOGI: Okay. I was going to say, if there's a cost There is a cost. Not -- we don't charge a certificate MS. BAISLEY: Well, you don't charge for a replacement sticker either. I mean, if you-- MS. CRUZ: No. MS. BAISLEY: -- if you would trade the vehicle with another vehicle, you don't charge for that sticker either. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What is the cost? MS. CRUZ: The cost if-- MS. ARNOLD: For the sticker to the county. MS. CRUZ: I don't know. I don't have that figure. MR. PALMER: We could add to the sentence in -- "the date of receipt of the notice of violation shall commence the running of the 15-day period and until the matter is corrected" -- or words to this effect -- "the vehicle shall not be operated as a vehicle for hire." if you want to go ahead and add that to that sentence -- MR. CSOGI: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: C. MR. PALMER: I put this in here to make sure that Chapter 316 Page 32 June 19, 2001 stood on its own. Whatever it says it says, and it's not implied to be modified in any way by this ordinance. That has independent obligations, come down from the state legislature, have independent enforcement mechanisms. The idea is that those things stay the way they are. If somebody is in violation of 316 and has to contend with some governmental authority, that's the case. And this in no way affects any of that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: This was raised by reading 3 ! 6 and seeing that that could become an issue. That's why I wanted to get it clarified. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Section 142-33 A. B? C? D, page 107 MR. HYDE: Can we hold on a second. After reading through this entire section, where does it say that you have to be a -- either a chauffeur's license or a specific class of driver? MR. FLEGAL: I don't think we've got there yet. MR. HYDE: Okay. But it's in there somewhere? MR. PALMER: Oh, very definitely, always has been. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is there climate control in this room, by any chance? MS. ARNOLD: No. I mean, I can ask. MS. CRUZ: We can open the back door for a little bit. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MS. CRUZ: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Will that give us a little more air? MS. BAISLEY: We still haven't decided -- back to D. Is that those stickers that are in the taxicab windows? Is that referring to those stickers that are in there with a number to call the county? MR. HYDE: I believe so. MR. FLEGAL: I would think it was because isn't that's what's on those stickers? MS. CRUZ: Uh-huh. Page 33 June 19, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: We still haven't decided whether or not those are supposed to be in all vehicles or just the -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, the way it was left is that it's not supposed to be in all vehicles. On the last-- MR. CSOGI: We didn't come to a conclusion. MS. BAISLEY: I don't think we did either. MR. CSOGI: It was just under discussion. So the last thing I offered was to give them a receipt and then the limo -- the last thing that I offered was to give them a receipt, but then I think you said that some of the customers are paid by corporate and they don't want any kind of contact with their people that are getting transported. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yeah. I think we had two motions that fell. I made one, and it didn't go. And I think you made one. And did that go? MR. HYDE: I don't know. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We'd have to review the minutes. But you're absolutely correct. This issue -- D, as of right now, can't be in the ordinance because it encompasses all vehicles. And as of right now -- MS. BAISLEY: They're not in all vehicles. CHAIRMAN PEASE: The "how is your service" is not part of the charter side. MR. FLEGAL: Well, but your statement isn't -- anything can be in the ordinance. The fact that it's not being done is immaterial. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But the fact -- MR. FLEGAL: This is what we want -- we're recommending to the commissioners the ordinance say. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And the ordinance recommendation does not match the consensus of the board, not the board of-- of-- I'm talking about our committee. MR. FLEGAL: But we haven't determined that yet. This -- this Page 34 June 19, 2001 committee hasn't decided that it should apply to everybody. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And that's my point. MR. FLEGAL: I think it should so -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: This ordinance doesn't meet consensus at this time. MS. ARNOLD: MR. FLEGAL: now and then-- Discussing. But that's all right. Why would you take it out CHAIRMAN PEASE: Why would we put it in. MR. FLEGAL: Next meeting we vote to put it in. Now we've got to go back and say, "Hey, Tom, we've changed" -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: We don't know the intent of the vote or the -- you know, we -- MR. FLEGAL: Well, why don't we leave it there and just highlight it until we vote on it, and then it's easier to pull it out? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Because it shouldn't be in the ordinance. As of right now it should not be in the ordinance draft. It is -- it is not part of-- MS. ARNOLD: got a majority -- MR. FLEGAL: that. Why can't we discuss it as a committee? We've Well, this isn't a regular meeting, so we can't do MS. ARNOLD: You can discuss it. You can't vote on it, but you can discuss it as a committee to see what your feelings are on it rather than having -- MR. PALMER: Yeah. I -- these are basic -- giving me instructions -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: -- as to what to put into this thing for -- some -- some day there will be a formal vote -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. Page 35 June 19, 2001 MR. PALMER: -- and things may be modified. Right now this applies to all vehicles. Obviously the rate, receipt available upon request could be limited to taxis. "how was your service, could be applied to all vehicles. These are policy issues. MR. FLEGAL: I -- I would like to know why anybody in the charter service business doesn't want their passengers to be able to say they've had crappy service. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That -- that's not the issue. MR. HYDE' That's not the issue. That's not the issue. If I'm put -- if I'm putting somebody in a -- in a limo and he's the president of a company and he's the CEO of IBM and he's coming in and he sees a sticker on the side of a limo only in Naples, nowhere else in the country, that says "How was your service? Call me," because the county wants to know -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Two stickers. MR. HYDE: -- I -- I'd be, "What the heck is that? What -- are you guys trying to control the horse?" I wouldn't -- I wouldn't buy that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: There -- we're not trying to put taxis in the lesser position than a charter because in some cases we do have some cross-pollination. MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: However, there is a built-in system for that. They don't pay us. If they don't like the service, they don't pay us. And they're very proactive with that. MR. HYDE: And they don't pay you. It's -- in five years it's happened once, and it was just an issue that the driver wasn't there. But it wasn't a service issue. The guy just wasn't where he was supposed to be. So I think that for those, those are really limited and isolated cases. And to say that everybody has to be in the same -- when you charter a vehicle, specifically a limo or a sedan, for specific Page 36 June 19, 2001 groups and you know that they're looking for brand-new last one-year series Lincoln Town Cars because it's for Ford and it's got to be a Ford limo, and it's got to be this -- there are certain expectations that come with that quality of service and price. And to sticker that and to say, okay, you need to be there, and you need to question the service, is that person, that CEO, or those corporate executives, are they really going to call you because, first of all, they're going to go to their meeting planner or somebody else that works for them and say, "By the way, I didn't like that," and they're going to write it off anyway. MS. BAISLEY: But we're not talking about meeting planners. You could decide to rent a limo for an evening. MR. HYDE: But you know the company. Same scenario. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You're going to take it off your bill. You're going to protest your credit card. I got -- I get three to five credit card disputes a day from individual transfers. MS. BAISLEY: I'm not -- I don't think we're just talking about, "Hey, this was a half an hour more you charged me for than what was going on." we're talking about a safety issue. "hey, I rode around in this vehicle, and the driver was swerving all over the road," or -- MR. CSOGI: Right. Yeah. This was-- MS. BAISLEY: -- "The tires were bald." that's not going to come off your credit card. MR. CSOGI: This is, I think, a mechanism put in for the people because there is no other way to report to the county. We don't have a hot line. We don't have anything up -- up there. All it is is a mechanism for people to report. And how are you going to know unless we have this? We're hearing about two charter services, and you -- you don't know all your drivers because you don't ride around with them. MR. HYDE: You're most certainly correct. But I also know Page 37 June 19, 2001 that in the larger cities I don't think it's in every limo and every sedan. MR. CSOGI: But do you know if they have a mechanism in place -- I think the larger cities do have hot lines where you can call in if you-- if you have a problem with the taxicab commissions. They have taxi commissions, and they're regulated a lot different than the way we operate. MS. BAISLEY: Well, a lot of the larger cities have the driver's pictures of-- MR. FLEGAL: -- face. MS. BAISLEY: -- a phone number where to call if you -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's in a taxi or an airport transfer. MS. BAISLEY: Yeah. MR. FLEGAL: But, I mean, in this town you're telling me that all the limos that are in this town are only used by CEOs? MR. HYDE: No. That's not-- MR. FLEGAL: So, I mean, CEOs are one thing. But let's get down to reality, what happens in Naples. And I think the majority of your taxis are rented by other people. MR. HYDE: Correct. Taxis, not limos. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I'm sorry. Limos are rented by other people than CEOs in Naples. MR. HYDE: I would agree. But the difference is is that if you're chartering it, A, you know who you called, and you do have a recourse with the company. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All of them you have a resor-- you definitely can go back to the company and not pay your bill. MR. if you get MS. MR. MR. FLEGAL: You have a recourse with the taxicab company it out of the Yellow Pages and say -- BAISLEY: They're doing it every day. FLEGAL: So I -- I -- you know. CSOGI: I've got -- I mean, I've been in business for a Page 38 June 19, 2001 number of years. I've -- I've got a Mobil gas station. And I've had a lot of clients out at the gas pumps. They don't come in and tell me that, you know, the coffee pot's dirty. I'll get a call from Mobil from the 1-800 number saying they said that because they don't want to be bothered with coming to you, you know. They bring it to your attention "At this one store they've got a dirty coffee pot" or "We saw ants around the sugar" or something like that. And they'll even come in and tell me or call the 800 number. They don't want to be bothered. They don't want to be designated as they're the one that called so the next time they come into town, they're -- you know, well, "That's the guy that called us last time.". MS. ARNOLD: I think a part of the reason why this is in here is not only for complaints, but, I mean, for a way to track that there may be a specific problem at a company, not to point out one specific vehicle or whatever, if it's a way to determine whether or not a pattern -- a problem is occurring. And-- and you, as responsible business owners will probably take care of the one complaint that you -- you receive for the year. But there's no way that the county even knows about that one complaint, whatever it is, or the nature of it, you know, if it's a fare or somebody not showing up, if somebody doesn't show up, that's something, too, that's -- that's in the ordinance that you're supposed to be conscious of. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I object to two stickers of this size (indicating), one on each side of the vehicle. I object to that. It's very tacky. It's not appropriate for this area. When you spend 75 or $85 an hour for a stretch limo to have these big stickers that are -- make you remind -- it reminds me of Chicago. It reminds me of a big city tacky -- MS. BAISLEY: It's tacky in a taxicab. Now I have stickers with rates, I have stickers with "call the county." they're all over the windows. Page 39 June 19, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: Let's do this, Bryan. We have our five members here and we can't vote, but we can get a consensus. So why don't you just go around the table, "Are you for it or against it?" the five of us are here, and let's find out, and then we can know, it stays or it goes. That's your choice. MR. PALMER: "how's your service" or the receipt? MR. FLEGAL: If you want to-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: How's your service. MR. FLEGAL: -- divide it in two, we can do that. Right now I think everybody is talking about "how's your service.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: This has been brought up on record and did not pass. MR. CSOGI: But I -- I was not at the meeting. I think it was a dead vote, 2-2, if I remember correctly. MS. BAISLEY: I think you weren't there. MS. ARNOLD: Maybe it's -- maybe it needs to be discussed, and, like Mr. Flegal is saying, a consensus reached about having some sort of notice to the public, how to report something like an 800 number, and then discuss what's -- which is the most appropriate way to display it. Right now the stickers were a quick-fix thing. Maybe it's going to be more acceptable for everyone if there is something like I think Tom had brought up in the past, the -- the face with an i -- identification number and a phone number on that rather than the two stickers -- MR. PALMER: Well, if I had a nice vehicle for hire, I'd go out and have one made that's very nice, and I'd put it up there and says "How is your service? If you have a problem, call the number." it would be very nice. It would be complimentary. And if I were a passenger, I would think it would be doing me a service, because if I had a problem and I had to find out, how do I contact the county? I don't know how -- how to do it. And I would say, "Gee, the county Page 40 June 19, 2001 could have made some mechanism where I could have found you easier." I wouldn't be -- I wouldn't take umbrage if I -- I wouldn't want any specific form, but I'd have something that looks good in old English or something, "How is your service? If you have a problem, call this number." I would do it right. MS. ARNOLD: That would be my suggestion. Maybe you get a consensus about how is your service, you know, notification thing, and then the -- the committee can determine how to best display it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We did have discussions on getting rid of those two stickers on the back of the vehicle and doing something on the visor. MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh, yes, we did. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And I would be -- MS. BAISLEY: But as -- a visor in a limo won't work. The visor's going to be in the driver's compartment. MR. PALMER: Well, where would be -- if you were going to put this in a vehicle, where would be the appropriate place to do it? I know when I was driving vehicles, the thing was behind the driver on the seat-- on the backside of the driver. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That was a taxi. MR. PALMER: Well, don't vehicles that have -- don't other vehicles have a back-- backside of a seat for a driver? The question is, where is the appropriate place to put this thing where it's visible to passengers? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Fort Myers. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I think-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: No. I'm talking within the vehicle. MR. FLEGAL: I think we're miss -- for some reason we got way off track here. We said in the beginning there was something we didn't -- some of us didn't like this because didn't want it in charter vehicles. We said, okay, why don't we talk about it and got a Page 41 June 19, 2001 consensus of what the board wants because it shouldn't be in here because we haven't done that. So now we're talking about it, and we said let's get a consensus, and all of a sudden nobody wants to get a consensus. The five of us are here. Let's go around the table and ask. So if it's three against and two for, fine. Let's get it. MR. HYDE: I'll start it. I don't feel it's appropriate. Okay. That's one against putting it in. Pat? I feel it is in all vehicles. Okay. It's one to one. I think it should be in. MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: That's two to one. MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: The pressure's on. You're it. MR. CSOGI: I think there should be some type of mechanism to contact the county, and unfortunately this is it for right now. And I feel for the limo service, I think it is tacky, but unless we come up with a different way, I'm for it right now. MR. HYDE: What's the recourse going to be for the county when someone calls and says, "By the way, I didn't think the service was that great"? What's the county going to do? MR. FLEGAL: Well, I think they should notify the owner of the service. MR. HYDE: And do what? MR. FLEGAL: At least we notified them. That's what we -- MR. HYDE: You notified them of what? MS. ARNOLD: Well, I think-- MR. PALMER: Hypothetical case, let's assume that the driver was drunk. MR. HYDE: Well, then you go back to the ordinance. You're not allowed to have any alcohol when you're driving. MR. PALMER: But how does the passenger contact the county is the issue, not -- not -- obviously, some of these things may Page 42 June 19, 2001 diminimous (phonetic). If I get in a cab and I find out -- or a vehicle for hire or a limousine and the driver is drunk, I want to know how to contact the county and complain about it. MR. HYDE: Tom, you're telling me you would honestly contact the county -- let's say you're going to L.A. You got in a car, a sedan. You picked one up, whatever, Fausgate (phonetic), any-- the name of the company, and you got into it and you see that the guy -- he's swerving or you think that he's wasted or whatever, you would then call the City of L.A. Versus calling the county? MR. PALMER: If I lived in the City of L.A., you bet. If I lived in Chicago, I probably wouldn't. MR. HYDE: Okay. Well-- you wouldn't? MR. PALMER: No. And if I would -- but if I lived in L.A. And it was an L.A. Vehicle, I'd call in a minute. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So if you were a guest, you wouldn't. MR. PALMER: Well, I wouldn't be bothered. I'm going back to Chicago. But if I lived in Collier County and I get into a vehicle and I discover halfway through the trip that the vehicle is drunk (sic), I'll call the county. You can bet on it. And I'll also call the business. But I'll call the -- probably call the county first. CHAIRMAN PEASE: The only reason that may be so is because you're in quasi government now. MR. PALMER: That may be. CHAIRMAN PEASE: The average guest is going to call the company. MS. BAISLEY: Well, what if the average guest doesn't get the satisfaction with the company that they want? They don't know where to turn to. And that company could say-- MR. HYDE: There is none in Collier County. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Better Business Bureau-- Better Business Bureau certainly is one mechanism. Go ahead. Page 43 June 19, 2001 MR. WALKER: As an example, being a weights and measures inspector, we put stickers on every scale that's got 1-800 Help Florida. The majority of our complaints, they do not notify the store. I would say in 60 percent of the cases the store is not notified, and the inspector shows up and says, "I have a complaint.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: What business is that? MR. WALKER: Anything. From scanning to scales to taxicabs, any business that we deal with, package inspection. If you feel you were shorted, they contact us as opposed to the store. MR. HYDE: And there -- there is a 1-800 number for it? MR. WALKER: On every scale in the state. MR. CSOGI: A sticker. MR. WALKER: Gas pumps, taxi meters. MR. HYDE: So there's already a sticker in a taxicab that has a 1-800 number on it ? MR. WALKER: With the state. But if-- if you call the state and say, "This guy was driving drunk," that doesn't fall under my jurisdiction. MR. HYDE: Okay. MR. CSOGI: So where is the 800 number now for the Department of Agriculture? On the permit? MR. WALKER: On the -- on the taxi meters themselves. MR. CSOGI: On the meter, not-- . MR. WALKER: (Nodded head.) MR. CSOGI: Is it in plain sight of-- MR. FLEGAL: They don't have them in charters, though. MR. CSOGI: That's true. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I've got five stickers on my front windows. I've got one on my back bumper, and now you want to put two inside. I've got Miami International; I got RSW -- MR. HYDE: Fort Lauderdale. Page 44 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- Fort Lauderdale -- MS. ARNOLD: But that's your choice. CHAIRMAN PEASE: county. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. This has nothing to do with the I understand. I'm just saying there's -- I mean, it's -- I agree with Pat. It's getting to the point where you can't even see out the window. But I think -- I don't object with the -- the concept. My problem is the method that's being used for that. I'm -- if there was a way to accomplish the task better in a less intrusive and less aesthetically incorrect as possible, I -- I would go along with it. I don't think two stickers, one on each side -- it's like you're too stupid to -- that you don't know to turn your head one way or the other. You have to have it on both. I think that's ridiculous. I think if it was more subtle but effective, it would be appropriate. Let me -- let me finish my thought process, since everybody else had a chance - - and that maybe there's a better way than the system we have now. And then I would be willing to take a look at it. But this draft doesn't -- only expresses the view of a couple right now. MR. PALMER: Well, this draft expresses the view of the written instructions I had. CHAIRMAN PEASE: From everybody. MR. PALMER: Yeah. MR. CSOGI: I've got a question for Miss Baisley. A taxicab in a month, how many rides do they offer? MS. BAISLEY: In a month's time? MR. MS. MR. MS. MR. MS. CSOGI: In a month's time. BAISLEY: Per taxicab? CSOGI: Yeah. Per taxicab. BAISLEY: I don't know offhand. CSOGI: Over 500? Over a thousand? BAISLEY: Probably over 500. Page 45 June 19, 2001 MR. CSOGI: Over 500? MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. MR. CSOGI: The one thing that I said last time because I was missing from the previous meeting was can we hand out receipts. And Eric said they don't want to know what they paid for the limo ride. MR. HYDE: It's upon request. MR. CSOGI: Right. We can get rid of all the stickers, and I'll -- I'll revamp what I said, is if you can give them a business card and it just says, "Any questions, contact this phone number" -- it's not a receipt; it's just a card. That way you don't have to have a sticker. You just require them to give them the card every time they get out. I don't know if that's intrusive or-- MS. ARNOLD: How do we know they're going to be giving out those cards? MR. CSOGI: Well, how do you know they're going to follow the ordinance? MS. BAISLEY: I still would like to see the whole thing done in one thing, the face for the driver with his information, the vehicle information and that 800 number or the county's number to call with complaints all in one thing right on the visor or in the case of a limo somewhere else because -- MR. HYDE: I'd go for that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I would, too, instead of all over the car. MS. BAISLEY: And it accomplishes everything. MR. HYDE: And what we originally talked about in meetings and meetings ago was that we didn't have the time frame to get that done because we needed something which was the sticker which was the quick fix. So we tried to get that done. So -- what we wanted to come up with was a face plate, just like the ones that they have every place else, has a picture of the driver -- the car stays the same and all Page 46 June 19, 2001 you do is switch out the plate so that there's a slot for it or wherever. And if it's behind the driver, and if it's in the limo, and if it's not on the glass, maybe it's above it so it's neatly -- and it's framed or something so that you can slide it in and out, same scenario with the taxis. And I think that would eliminate 99 percent of this. MS. BAISLEY: It should make everyone happy. MR. HYDE: And then, A, you'd actually know who the driver is because you've got his name and you've got his face, unless he changed everything or something but, I mean -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Absent when photo taken. MR. HYDE: I think, that would-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Go ahead, Mr. Flegal. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. Let's go back to this consensus where we put this in or put it out, and understanding you don't like the stickers, what does D say? It says a notice; it doesn't say a sticker on either window. It could be this thing that everybody likes with a driver's picture and all this other jazz. This sentence just says a notice. So let's get off the sticker. Let's get back to the consensus that this should be in the ordinance, put it in there, in the format for what it is will be found later. really, stickers on a window. This says a notice. Let's quit spending 45 minutes on, This doesn't say stickers on a window. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I have an issue with rate receipt available upon request. We just got done talking about people give limos for weddings. They give limos for CEOs, they give limos for VIPs, and then you're going to have to give them the rate? That's not appropriate. MS. ARNOLD: But they wouldn't request it if they don't want it MR. FLEGAL: If they don't request, you're not going to give it to them. Page 47 June 19, 2001 MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. FLEGAL: So you object to the words just because he might want to request it? If he gets in and gets out and does not ask for a receipt, what's your problem? MS. BAISLEY: I understand what their problem is, and I would have the same problem because sometimes a second or third party is paying for somebody's transportation. And that person is, in mm, marking that service up. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. I understand that part. MS. BAISLEY: So they're not paying what we would actually be charging somebody. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MS. BAISLEY: And somebody's going to say, "Well, it was $55." and they're going to say, "Oh, no. It's $75." and they go, "Well, the driver gave me a receipt.". MR. PALMER: The way to solve that problem is to limit that to people who pay the fare. If somebody else pays the fare -- MS. BAISLEY: That's true. MR. PALMER: -- you don't get the receipt. If they're paying cash, they're entitled to a MS. BAISLEY: receipt. MR. PALMER: MS. BAISLEY: MR. PALMER: That's true. If not, they're not entitled to a receipt. Yeah. That's the way to solve that problem. And I don't know why anybody that didn't pay the bill would care about what the receipt is. MS. BAISLEY: Well, because ultimately down the road they're getting charged for that service, but they're getting charged at a much higher rate because there's people in between that are marking it up. CHAIRMAN PEASE: In other words, let's say Yellow Cab -- Eric calls Yellow Cab to say -- Page 48 June 19, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- "Can you do a pickup for me?" the rate she charges is going to be different than the rate he charges, and rightly so. MS. BAISLEY: But the customer is not paying me directly; they're paying Eric his rate. MR. PALMER: Right. What I'm saying is that if the -- the cab driver could say, "I'm not required to give any rate receipts except to the person who pays me.". MS. BAISLEY: That -- that would be fine with me, and I think that would be acceptable to you, wouldn't it? MR. FLEGAL: Or what if it was, we only give receipts for cash transactions? MR. HYDE: That's not what that says. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I'm just saying, I'm trying to find a happy medium here. If that's the only way you give a receipt is is you're going to pay me cash or you're going to get out of the limo, write me a check, I'll give you a receipt. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think that's appropriate. "receipt available for cash transactions" is appropriate verbiage. MR. PALMER: We could say cash receipt -- cash -- cash payment receipt. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, if that will narrow it down, I don't -- I don't have a problem with that. MR. HYDE: Yeah. That also doesn't say how big it is or whatever, so I can put it where I want to. MR. PALMER: Just clearly visible. Let the -- let the driver decide what he wants. MR. HYDE: You'd never see it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is there anywhere in this draft ordinance of more detailed information about this item? Page 49 June 19, 2001 MR. PALMER: No. MR. FLEGAL: No. MS. BAISLEY: I think in six months' time before the new permits are issued in January, we should be able to come up with that face and everything in that one little area, one piece of paper. CHAIRMAN PEASE: agenda? MS. BAISLEY: Yes. MR. HYDE: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MS. BAISLEY: Yes. All right. Do you want this on the For the next meeting? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. WALKER: Just before we get going again, I want to make sure that you're talking about putting rates and everything on the one card, or this is going to be -- MS. BAISLEY: Well -- MR. WALKER: The reason I'm asking about rates is that falls under our jurisdiction. What Handbook 44 states is that it's got to be in the back of the car, in the front of the car. But you can do that with the slide, you know, tack it to the door. That doesn't apply to limos. But as far as taxicabs go, we need to make sure that there's rates in the back and the front. MS. BAISLEY: I think we should make it separate. I think the taxicabs should be rates in the back of the car. MR. WALKER: Yeah. I just wanted to make sure before you -- MS. BAISLEY: Taxicab rates should be in the back of the vehicle and the front of the vehicle. And this face that we're talking about would be just in the front area except for in a limousine we're going to have to find a designated area for that so the passengers actually see it. MR. PALMER: Somewhere else in this ordinance there's more Page 50 June 19, 2001 specificity about display of rates. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. HYDE: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So is that -- you put that on the agenda, put that for the agenda discussion? Okay. E. MR. PALMER: I recommend putting a period after the word "vehicle for hire." I wrote this. But the more I think about it, the more I think about it's an impossibility of this question about or in possession of vehicle driver-- MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MR. PALMER: -- is problematic. But keeping it out of the vehicle, I think, is not a problem. I got this from some other city's or county's vehicle-for-hire ordinance, just put it in there without analyzing it closely enough. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All right. F? MR. PALMER: This is to avoid claim jumping. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. G. Okay. Striking D. MR. PALMER: These are staff requests. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah, I -- my question was, why did we eliminate D, E, F, and G? MS. ARNOLD: That was my question too. MR. FLEGAL: I was just curious. MS. ARNOLD: That wasn't our request. That was -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Mine -- mine was D, again, because I'm a believer in a little free market here. And if you're unhappy with the way somebody talks, you should use a different company and bring it up to that company. Why is it mandated by the county and how is it mandated by the county to -- you know, to do that. E -- E should not be struck; we already discussed that. And-- F. MS. BAISLEY: D is going to be a lot of hearsay too. I mean, somebody is going to come in and say, "That driver said this, that, Page 51 June 19, 2001 and the other thing to me.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MS. BAISLEY: And who's going to verify that was ever said? CHAIRMAN PEASE: So I think D should remain struck because I don't think it's -- I don't think it's a safety issue to the guest. I think it's acom-- you know -- MR. HYDE: I also do not think it's enforceable. CHAIRMAN PEASE: E, I think, should be in. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's a free-market situation. F, I don't think I struck that one. You did. Did I? MS. ARNOLD: D, E, F, and G. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let me -- let me review it again. Okay. I guess my question there was about the word "solicit." Yellow Cab, let's say, has an agreement with The Registry to supply taxi services on site. Is the driver soliciting for a passenger of a hotel in that situation? MR. FLEGAL: No. MR. HYDE: Contracted. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What does -- what does "solicit" mean? What is the definition of solicit legally? MR. PALMER: Solicit means that -- like, you're in a lounge and you're -- you're -- you're shilling for the -- for the lounge owner to take Yellow Cab, trying to limit the people that come to that establishment to one favored company. CHAIRMAN PEASE: They do that now, don't they? Don't -- aren't there arrangements made with restaurants? MS. BAISLEY: One of my competitors does that very frequently. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But you go in and -- and say, "We'd like to be your cab company." I guess I'm confused about what the Page 52 June 19, 2001 difference is between saying, "I'm going to be the cab company for The Registry Resort" and "I'm going to be the cab company for Bistro 821 .". MR. FLEGAL: Well, but you probably have a contract with The Registry. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But even if you don't have a contract, what's the difference between -- MS. ARNOLD: I thought that it implied that, you know, you're just hanging out for passengers coming in and out. If there's, like, a contracted company working for that bar or hotel or something, that's different. But if-- like, at the airport, for instance, unless you're on -- you have the license to operate at the airport, you can't just hang out and wait for passengers to come off of a plane and pick them up. And that's the same thing. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think it needs further -- MS. ARNOLD: That's the same thing, where unless you're contracted by that hotel or commercial establishment, you can't just hang out at that establishment and pick up patrons from that -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's the phrase that needs to be added to that sentence, then, "unless contracted by that establishment." in other words, if it's the wishes of the commercial establishment to have those vehicles there, they should have that right. This says you can't. MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: No, I don't think it says that. No, it doesn't. I agree -- This doesn't say that I can't have my own taxicab stand out in front of my restaurant if I want to. It's -- this is solicitation. This is unsolicited offers to go with a cab company. Somebody sitting in a bar and said, "Can I get you a Yellow Cab" to the guy that's next -- sitting next -- the next bar stool kind of thing. You're really -- it's not to go into these places and solicit passengers Page 53 June 19, 2001 for you or the -- or anybody else is the -- is what it -- the focus of it is. MR. FLEGAL: My -- when I read it, my thought was, if a driver for Yellow Cab is just -- "Well, gees, I don't have any fares," so he just stops down on Fifth Avenue and walks in McCabe's and says, "Hey, anybody need a Yellow Cab? I'm here" -- MR. PALMER: That's not-- MR. FLEGAL: -- you know. MR. PALMER: That's not prohibited. MR. FLEGAL: He's soliciting business. MR. PALMER: He's soliciting business for himself. This is soliciting business for somebody else. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Can we -- can I-- MR. PALMER: You have the word "from" -- if the word-- if this word was "from"-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: How about this -- MR. PALMER: -- then that would apply to your case. CHAIRMAN PEASE: How about this verbiage? "no driver shall solicit any passenger in any hotel, lounge, nightclub, restaurant, bar, boarding house, or any other commercial establishment without permission from that commercial establishment"? MR. FLEGAL: I see what Tom said. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Not "for" any hotel but "in" any hotel. MR. PALMER: Well, that's -- that's a plausible solution. MR. HYDE: That's fine. MS. BAISLEY: What happens to the person who goes down to the restaurant, and let's say McCabe's, and the driver walks in because he doesn't have the name of a passenger who called. And he says "Taxi. I'm here" -- MR. PALMER: "who called -- who called a cab?" that's not the problem. Page 54 June 19, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: That's not going to be a problem. But if he walks in that restaurant, and he says -- MR. PALMER: Just going fishing for a passenger, "I'm on my way home. Anybody going out north? ". CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. And that -- that would make me feel better if it said "in" instead of "for," and then "without permission from the commercial establishment." G, and then we'll take a break. Anybody have any objections to G or changes or suggestions? MR. FLEGAL: I was just curious as to why we -- do we just not care about it, so we're going to knock it out or -- is that what we're doing? MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: On F? G, buying personal property. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is there a law that dictates that? MR. PALMER: Yeah. This Chapter 705 is the procedure you take if you find mislaid property in your vehicle. In fact, I don't personally -- and this is policy, but I do not see any valid reason to take this G out. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let's don't. MR. FLEGAL: I don't either. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let's take a ten-minute break for our stenographer. (A short break was held.) (The following proceedings recommenced, Ms. Arnold not present:). CHAIRMAN PEASE: Section 142-34 A, that was probably me again. Well, we -- we discussed that already in terms of the -- the stickers, but this is relating to paint schemes. And I think I was -- it was explained to me that it is important to have different-color paint schemes on the cab so there is no question about who the company is. Page 55 June 19, 2001 What's the reason for the magnetic signs? Do you remember, Pat, why we ever said you couldn't have magnetic signs? It was before my time. MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: I don't remember why we said we couldn't. Well, I would think you -- one of the reasons is you could take any vehicle and take a magnetic sign and slap it on there and say 'Tm Yellow Cab." . MR. PALMER: That's the idea. MR. HYDE: Also, if you're putting rates on the outside, you know, like was proposed, you could just change your rates based on a daily whim. I mean, technically no, but -- MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. But I -- I mean, I would think it would be for basically vehicle protection because anybody -- I mean, Yellow Cabs all happen to be yellow. But if these people that -- if there were no color scheme or anything, they could put it on their whatever -- on their kid's car, and he could round and say, "Hey, I'm Yellow Cab Company. Can I pick you up?" you know, I think that should stay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Then the last sentence relates -- it doesn't say -- it says at least 10 wide by 4 inches in height, but it doesn't say a maximum. Do we need a maximum? Do we want a maximum? MR. FLEGAL: I -- I think you should based on what we see running around in Capital-- MR. CSOGI: City Cab? MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: MR. PALMER: MR. CSOGI: Or is it City Cab? What happened -- Good God. What happened with that? What is this? It's -- it's on the agenda for today. Page 56 June 19, 2001 MR. PALMER: What does -- what does the sign say? MR. CSOGI: Well, it goes from the front of the car, but that's not what it says. It's that it's got a board that can be used. MR. FLEGAL: It's just gigantic. But then they start advertising, and I think at the meeting we told them -- told the county to tell them to stop it because that wasn't even on the vehicle when we approved the vehicle. MR. CSOGI: Right. MR. FLEGAL: So they got to take it off. We did send them a notice of violation -- MS. CRUZ: MR. CSOGI: They stopped. MS. CRUZ: Uh-huh. MR. PALMER: Well -- yeah. MR. CSOGI: No. MR. PALMER: MS. BAISLEY: And that's not a top light. We're talking here about a top light. That -- that is partially a top light. Isn't this the part -- MR. CSOGI: See it right there? MS. BAISLEY: -- the top part of it -- MR. CSOGI: No. MS. BAISLEY: It illuminates with their name and their -- wheth -- whether it's occupied or not occupied? MR. PALMER: No. The top light is on the right-- in the front of the car, like everybody's top light. That is addit -- addition to the top light. You can see the top light there. MR. CSOGI: Yeah. See it? MR. PALMER: Yeah. MR. CSOGI: Right there (indicating). CHAIRMAN PEASE: So what do we want it to say ? MR. FLEGAL: Well, their vehicles that I've seen don't -- most of them don't have a top light. They just have that thing that lights up Page 57 June 19, 2001 in the front. There's not a separate little top light on most of their vehicles. I've never seen one with -- with -- with a top -- I think this is part of what holds this on. See how it -- here (indicating). MR. CSOGI: Yeah. MR. FLEGAL: You can see it. It has a little -- it sticks out. It's -- it comes down. If you were looking sideways, it comes like this and goes out like this and goes across. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I guess there's an advertising ordinance that prevents them from doing advertising on there besides us; is that right? MR. PALMER: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. So do we want a maximum on top light? MR. FLEGAL: I think-- aren't all top lights pretty much the same size, Pat? You're in that kind of business.? MS. BAISLEY: Yeah. Basically, they come in different shapes, but they're all generally -- MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: mechanism. sign Pretty much -- I mean, they're not a huge -- Not gigantic. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Like those. I mean -- Right. That's a top light incorporated into that CHAIRMAN PEASE: In effect is legal under the current ordinance. MR. CSOGI: Right. MR. PALMER: Well, one of the things that we could add in here, it says mounted on the roof of the cab, but it -- we could say "facing forward and backward." tap -- don't top lights -- or do they face forward some? Page 58 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: It does. MS. BAISLEY: That does -- MR. PALMER: Well, now this ordinance does not say it can't go lengthwise front to back of the vehicle. What I'm saying is, if you want to add in here that the fact is that it's got to be -- the width has to be side to side. (Ms. Arnold entered the room.) MR. FLEGAL: Okay. Why don't we do this: We're telling them 10 inches wide. We're telling them 4 inches high. Why don't we just say X inches. Since we're doing width and height, let's put length. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It says "at least," though. We -- we -- what I'm suggesting is if you -- do we need a maximum? MR. PALMER: We can put it in here easily enough. MS. BAISLEY: But we'd have to know what a maximum -- MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. I don't know-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yeah. We don't know -- MS. BAISLEY: -- standard top light is, and I don't know what that is. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Exactly. Unless we just don't care. MR. PALMER: Well, do you want to face -- do you want it to face forward and/or reverse rather than sideways? I've never seen a top light on a taxicab that was a -- you know, most of them you face -- I've never seen them this way. But nothing in the ordinance prevents that. MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. Because City Cab, remember, the advertising thing, what they did was they removed the advertising, but that advertising thing is still on there. And we -- we couldn't make them remove that because those are minimums. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MS. ARNOLD: So if the board wants to do something where Page 59 June 19, 2001 you have your standard top light that says "in service," "out of service," whatever, and not have something like that, then you have to put-- MR. PALMER: Well, we could make -- we could basically say that you get a top light and only a top light on the top of the cab. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Free of advertising space? MR. PALMER: Yeah. We could -- I could clean it up and say what you're -- what you mean, and that is, it's a bona fide top light. It's not an advertising -- MR. HYDE: Kiosk. MR. PALMER: -- banner or -- or-- or-- or structure. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: Clean it up. MS. ARNOLD: But if you don't mind that size -- I mean, or if you do mind that size -- . MR. FLEGAL: Well, but I -- I would think if you went to the -- I don't know who the manufacturer of this is, that this is probably not It's probably called a -- some type of advertising called a top light. something. MR. HYDE: Of course. It's a kiosk. MR. FLEGAL: You know, not a, quote, unquote, top light. MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: There would be nothing right now to prevent them from just putting their company name up there, would there? MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. Because that wasn't approved by us. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. All right. So you-- MR. PALMER: I'll -- I'll -- I'll clean that up for you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Schedule of fares, A. How does that look to you, Pat? MS. BAISLEY: We're going to agree that it could be, like Alan Page 60 June 19, 2001 says, with the plastic shield over the seat, just slide the rate into. MR. WALKER: As long as -- as long as it's visible to the customer, the state's not going to complain about that. And you could put it on the back of the seat, in the middle of the back of the seat, as long as they don't have to look for it. MS. BAISLEY: So if we took the decals off our windows, replaced it with that plastic sheet with the rate card in, that would be acceptable? MR. WALKER: MS. BAISLEY: MS. ARNOLD: has to be in the window. CHAIRMAN PEASE: B, taxi meter. MR. FLEGAL: Let's ask our expert, since he's here. Are we saying enough or too much, or did we leave anything out or -- MR. WALKER: No. It looks good to me. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Should we go forward? So, again, we're -- we're pulling the permits if MS. ARNOLD: it's not. MR. PALMER: Uh-huh. That's good. Right now our -- our ordinance doesn't say that Well, of course, this obligates the county to have a person at least under contract, and that will have to be spelled out -- I would recommend that that be spelled out in the executive summary. That doesn't slip by the Board of County Commissioners. We are assuming -- the county is assuming an obligation here. MS. ARNOLD: "or" it says. It says "or by a person.". MR. PALMER: Well, it says "employed by the county or by a person employed by any -- under a contract with the county to perform such services." either way, the county will be paying -- MR. FLEGAL: Right. MR. PALMER: -- those -- that salary or those wages or that payment. Page 61 June 19, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: MR. PALMER: MS. BAISLEY: MR. PALMER: For recalibration of a meter? Yeah. Well, they didn't. I know they didn't. This is a new obligation if And this was suggested by? Somebody. I don't see that. I know 34 -- Is it 34? I don't see that on the sheet of changes. this stays in. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: MS. ARNOLD: MR. FLEGAL: know how that got in. I don't see that anywhere. MR. PALMER: Well, I don't think it was my idea. remember where it came from. MS. ARNOLD' I don't know where that came from. MR. MR. MR. MR. PALMER: So it's a policy decision. FLEGAL' Does -- does the county really want -- PALMER: I don't know. FLEGAL' -- to take that responsibility? SO. I don't I don't I wouldn't think CHAIRMAN PEASE: It doesn't look like anybody from staff or any PVAC person recommended this, Mr. Palmer. MR. PALMER: Well, no. It was discussed a little bit because I think the idea was that -- is to try to get somebody in this county that's qualified to do this. I was -- we were -- discussion was that there was nobody in Collier County that was qualified to do this, and it was to get somebody in Collier County so people didn't have to go to Lee County or Dade County to get this done. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. But I don't remember saying it would be the county employing somebody to do it, do you? MS. CRUZ: No. MR. FLEGAL: I would probably recommend that everything Page 62 June 19, 2001 that's underlined there on that last big sentence just be removed. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I like staffs recommendation which is taxi meters, all, are required to provide county with certification of calibration or calibrator. MR. PALMER: Well, I would recommend that -- that the provision about giving the copy to the county remain in there, adopted -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: Adjusted by a qualified individual or a licensed individual or whatever the language is. But this is -- I'll tell you why this is in here. If we're going to deregulate rates, there may be cab companies that are recalibrating this thing every month. Now, they can do that under this new ordinance if we're going to get rid of the rates, and they can change these things as they see fit. But whatever their meter says, their -- their rate chart must coincide with the meter. And if I'm a cab -- a cab company and we're going to deregulate rates and I want to raise my rates, whatever I want to do, I'll just go to his person and say, "Recalibrate my stuff," and I'll put up a new rate sheet. MS. ARNOLD: This sentence is saying only -- unless the county is employing somebody to calibrate or recalibrate or adjust the thing, it -- it -- if we don't have that service being performed by a county employee, then the certificate -- it says certificate owner's responsibility to deliver a copy of the -- MR. PALMER: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Valid point. Valid point. MR. PALMER: You're right. MS. ARNOLD: So it doesn't say that we definitely have to. MR. PALMER: You're right. MS. ARNOLD: Because if we do decide that we're going to have somebody here locally and we're going to employ them or Page 63 June 19, 2001 contract them -- MR. PALMER: You're right. MS. ARNOLD: -- then we provide that information. Otherwise it's the certificate holder to provide that -- MR. PALMER: You're right. In other words, if-- if we do it, our person gives us information. If they go out to anybody else -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: -- they do it. MS. ARNOLD: They have to provide it within ten days -- MR. PALMER: You're right. MS. ARNOLD: -- that -- that service being performed. MR. PALMER: You're right. The word "except.". MS. BAISLEY: But one of-- one of the ways to provide the information was that the meter was sealed; is that correct? MR. PALMER: That is in here someplace else that, in fact, a broken seal is -- in fact, it's in the sentence above, "evidence of break- in, a taxi meter still should be prima facie evidence that said taxi meter had been tampered with.". MS. BAISLEY: But if it was sealed, then it would be calibrated properly to the -- MR. WALKER: What the state looks for is, we register service agencies, the same as -- as the Department of Motor Vehicles registers repair shops. At this time in Lee County, Cape Coral Speedometers' a registered company. What he does is, he can -- he has authorization to remove an out-of-service tag that we would put on a cab if-- if the meter was incorrect. When he removes that, he puts his seal on there, and he is registered through the state, meaning that he's met a certain criteria to do the job. And we have recourse -- if he decides to say -- you know, you get a taxicab, and he said, "Well, here's an extra 20 bucks, man. Set that meter a little fast for me and seal it," we can go back if we can catch him, and we can pull Page 64 June 19, 2001 his registration. We have recourse then because we know that he's a registered agency. But he does have the -- the seals to put on there, and it has his number on that seal, his state registration number. MS. ARNOLD: So maybe we should indicate in here that it has to be -- shall deliver a copy of each such -- maybe it should be for-- from a registered calibrator. MR. WALKER: Well, what we did on the course this time, because we ran out of time -- again, you know, some people weren't ready to go, and they got out and wanted excuses. And we had inspectors here from Miami, West Palm Beach, from all over the state. In order to expediate the course, the ones that didn't pass, we asked them, when they went and got their meter calibrated, to bring back the bill of lading or -- or evidence that it was calibrated by a registered company and give it to Maria, in which case they could get their permit. MS. ARNOLD: MR. WALKER: MS. ARNOLD: company. MR. WALKER: So the registration-- What we took this time was his receipt. Right. But -- but it's from a registered Yes. Yes. And the state -- if the county has a problem with that, the state can supply you with a list of registered meter repair companies. MS. BAISLEY: And that meter was still sealed by the -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. WALKER: It was sealed by the company. Yes, ma'am. MR. PALMER: The ordinance provides that you cannot seal a meter except by somebody who is authorized to do it. I've just deleted Chapter 532 and added "applicable laws, rules, and regulations" do not only -- because Chapter 532 could change to 534 next year. And there are also administrative regulations that are promulgated pursuant to this law, so I basically added that in there. Page 65 June 19, 2001 So we're not only talking about 532 presently, we're talking about the administrative regulations that flow from that chapter. We just expanded the scope of those words. MS. ARNOLD: But does this language allow for-- remember that there was a guy that was local that was doing calibration of-- of meters that was contracted by somebody else that didn't really have -- he wasn't really authorized by the state. MR. WALKER: What happened is, one of the cab companies has a registration or had an application to become a registered repair agency. Okay. The state does not have a law to tell us that, "No. That's a conflict of interest, we cannot register your company." the only thing that does is gives us a recourse to go back to that registered mechanic at that company and say, "I'm sorry, sir, but your work is substandard. We're going to issue you a WM 10," which is weights and measures insufficient repair, form and pull his registration. MR. PALMER: Or what about mandating unnecessary repairs? MR. WALKER: That could -- you could put that in there. MR. PALMER: My problem is is the reason in Florida they did away with automobile inspections 20 years ago was that these inspection stations were telling people they had to get repairs done for these vehicles to pass when it was bogus. People were getting ripped off left and right. And if you're going to allow a company that's going to do the inspections also have a repair shop, there's an incentive to tell people they need to repair things that they don't need to repair. MR. WALKER: You can put that in your wording on your ordinance. I, myself, I had a problem with that. I said, you know, I really don't see the use of letting a taxi company repair their own meters. But there's no law in the state that says that they can't do it. MR. PALMER: Talk about a possible invitation to play games. Page 66 June 19, 2001 MR. WALKER: Exactly. But my hands are tied. MR. PALMER: I understand. MR. WALKER: I have to follow the rules just like everybody else does. You could put in there "unnecessary repairs." that would be-- MR. PALMER: Well, actually, we don't get into the question about that. We get into the question about if you want to seal a meter, you'd better be a person that's been -- that's been authorized by the laws and the regulations that's been -- been, you know, certified to do that. And we don't change that; we just acknowledge that fact. But I -- is it true that the one -- none -- none of these people exist today? MS. ARNOLD: MR. WALKER: MR. PALMER: MR. WALKER: There's one person. They will shortly. They will. They're waiting to get their equipment. And once their equipment's in and I can verify that they have a seal punch, in other words, with their name and registration number on it, I have no choice but to sign off on -- MR. PALMER: Are they affiliated with the taxicab company? MR. WALKER: Yes, they are. MR. PALMER: That means that they run the -- the risk of letting their own vehicles slide and being ex -- extra strict on everybody else. I'm not saying they're going to do that, but that potential exists. MR. WALKER: Well, they also have the right to say, "I'm not fixing Yellow Cab. I don't work on their cabs. I work on my cabs." it gives them the opportunity to say, "Well, you have to take your cabs to Fort Myers or Miami.". MR. PALMER: Well, yeah. MR. WALKER: "I do my stuff here." Page 67 June 19, 2001 MR. PALMER: Right. Yeah. Nothing says that if they're going to do that they've got to make themselves -- MR. WALKER: Right. MR. PALMER: -- sort of a general practitioner-- MR. WALKER: Right. MR. PALMER: -- or open to the general businesses. They'll do it in-house only. Sure. . MR. CSOGI: What -- what is the cost -- is that incurred by the repair facility for that, or does the state provide the equipment ? MR. WALKER: No. They buy -- they provide their own equipment. MR. CSOGI: What's the average cost to be -- service? MR. WALKER: Sealing iron is probably 80, $90. Lead and wire seals, probably $50 for a thousand. MR. PALMER: What about the equipment to actually do the calibration? That's an expense. MR. WALKER: The equipment was provided by the state on that taxi meter course. They can take it out there, break the seal, run it down that taxi meter course, and seal it after that. MR. PALMER: Well, don't they have some kind of a calibration instrument? MR. WALKER: The state and Cape Coral Speedometer have dynamometers. We will use a dynamometer strictly because we don't want to be out on the road course anymore. It's too dangerous for our inspectors. Cape Coral Speedometer has a dynamometer. MR. PALMER: Well, that's an expensive piece of equipment. Yes, it is. But there's no law that says you MR. WALKER: have to have that. MR. PALMER: Right. Okay. The only recourse I have is if I can go out -- ask, again, Michelle's aware of my problems. I have seven counties. If I can come back here and -- and spot-check four or Page 68 June 19, 2001 five cabs from this company and determine that, yes, he is not calibrating the meter according to standard, I can pull his registration. MR. PALMER: By statistical sampling is what you're doing. MR. WALKER: Right. MR. PALMER: Well, we don't want to get involved in that. We're just saying basically if you're going to do this, if we're going to deregulate, you can have your own rates shown, but they've got to coincide with what is presently at that time on your meter set by a qualified person. MR. WALKER: That's the way the state's going to look at it. We're going to come in, read the rates off of that car, and test that cab according to those rates. MR. PALMER: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, can we go ahead and go through C and then come back to rates? Would that be acceptable to everybody? MR. PALMER: Is rates an issue? Or you mean the whole question of deregulation of rates? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Correct. MR. FLEGAL: We haven't got that far yet. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is that all right with everybody? MS. ARNOLD: So are we leaving this language in? MR. FLEGAL: Are we going to leave it in, just this last sentence? I think we can decide on that. Are we going to leave that in? MR. CSOGI: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I believe so. MS. ARNOLD: We can leave -- MR. PALMER: Any follow-up, and she's not going to know when people are changing their rates every two weeks or whenever they do. I don't know how often people are going to change their Page 69 June 19, 2001 rates, but there may be some companies that change them frequently and there may be some that don't change them in years. MR. HYDE: Well, currently -- and this was in one of the meetings that we also had, if someone has to have a change or have a machine recalibrated, there was some cost somewhere about $200 per vehicle to have it done. Was that pretty close to what it was? Russ made a comment. MR. CSOGI: That was because he had to drive -- MR. HYDE: But I know there was a significant amount of money that you would have to pay out the changes -- I mean, if you're going to change it every two weeks, it would be -- MR. PALMER: What would it cost somebody to go from here to Fort Myers, get it recalibrated, pay the person, and come back here? What would that cost you, would you guess? MR. WALKER: You looked at some of the receipts? Was it 60 or $80? MR. PALMER: That's going to keep it down. There are going to be some people who are going to change these rather frequently depending on the cost of gasoline or the market. If the gasoline market would drop way down and I'm high and everybody else in town is lower, I'm going to have to -- to compete, I'm going to have to lower my rates. So maybe the market would take care of itself. MS. BAISLEY: But what Alan is saying is that there is somebody in the industry here who is trying to be certified to adjust their own meters -- to calibrate their own meters. MR. PALMER: I understand. MS. BAISLEY: So that person could do it on a much more frequent basis. Because he's got an in-house thing, he doesn't have to travel any distance. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Who is that ? MS. BAISLEY: I think that's Checkered Cab. Page 70 June 19, 2001 MR. WALKER: Yes, it is. MR. CSOGI: Do you have a card ? MR. WALKER: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So we're going to leave it as stands right now? MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: C, a couple of people had different thoughts on C. MR. PALMER: C or D? CHAIRMAN PEASE: C now; was D. MS. BAISLEY: Right. MR. PALMER: Charter service vehicles. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Charter service vehicles. This is mine, this first sentence, and -- and my problem is that I run black Town Cars. And, as I understand it, a taxicab can have black as a color, and then I'm in violation. So my suggestion was to eliminate a color scheme because there's only a few color schemes. There's blue, white, and black and silver. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I guess I read the words "color scheme" differently. Color scheme to me is everything including the painting of the -- you know, whatever is on there. It can be a black car with red lettering and numbers -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: They can't have lettering on the side of-- MR. FLEGAL: A taxicab can. That's why I'm saying a black taxicab with red letters doesn't do anything to your black limousine. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Why is it important to the county to -- to -- or let me go back a different way. Is there any potential for any taxicab to come to the -- to any board at any given time, any PVAC and say I'm running -- let's use my van as an example. Silver with black lettering. Now, there's a cab operator that has silver with black lettering. As I read the Page 71 June 19, 2001 ordinance, I would be in violation. MR. FLEGAL: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And yet I was here first, but I didn't-- in fact, this happened several years ago. I said, do I need to buy a taxi license to protect my color scheme? And the consensus at that board, because I wasn't -- I don't think I was even on the board was, no, you didn't. But yet in principle I'm in violation with that sentence. So my suggestion is to eliminate that. It's not an issue from any perspective other than it's a -- kind of a dumb thing to have in there. MS. BAISLEY: I don't have a problem with eliminating it. I mean, I think, the way Bryan does it, it's not necessary to be in there. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay? Staffhas got some of these that are underlined here, an area in 72 square inches? MR. FLEGAL: That particular one I put in. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. FLEGAL: I looked at, you know, 3 inches. And in the rear -- I mean, something 3 inches wide across the rear of a vehicle, because we don't limit it to how wide it can be, I came up with 72. That's about the size of a license plate, 6 inches by 12 inches. I was trying to limit how much somebody could put on the back of a vehicle. Take 3-inch letters and write it all the way across the back of a trunk deck or all the way across the back of a bumper, that's a-- which they could do because this doesn't limit it on charter vehicles. I was trying to get it down to something reasonable. So I kind of picked almost a license plate size. CHAIRMAN PEASE: No problem on -- from my perspective. Anybody else? The next one's mine. No lettering permitted on any glass. There's a -- a couple of issues. MS. ARNOLD: Well, there's also -- Page 72 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: Go ahead. MS. ARNOLD: There's also -- I didn't mean to interrupt, but there's also the -- so we -- we're talking about the size. But we're also talking about where it's placed. We corrected that to say "rear bumper.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. Right. MS. ARNOLD: Okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think there was a couple of limo operators that have -- it's discrete. I mean, it looks nice, but it is in violation. On the -- the stretch portion of the glass, they have their company name in 2-inch lettering. MR. CSOGI: I've seen it bigger than that on some cars. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. CSOGI: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. Just questioning, is this something we want to keep in? Is it important? MR. FLEGAL: Well, it's -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does it -- does it matter to the county whether they put their company name -- I mean, I'm not going to do it MR. FLEGAL: Let me throw out a dumb statement. We were arguing before about stickers on glass windows because they look tacky, but it's okay to put your name on the glass window. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I didn't say that. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I mean, somebody wants it out of there. I'm saying let's not have any advertisement, period. MR. HYDE: I agree. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let's say inside and outside then. MR. CSOGI: Plus -- plus on the back window's going to impede your vision. MR. HYDE: That's a safety issue. Page 73 June 19, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: In the case of my charter service vehicles and several other companies, they do have their vehicle number -- MR. HYDE: Right. MS. BAISLEY: -- on the glass very discretely in the comer. MR. HYDE: Unit No. 15 or-- MS. BAISLEY: The unit number. MR. FLEGAL: There's a couple of your cabs that have "Yellow Cab" about that big across the back window. MS. BAISLEY: Those aren't my cabs. charter service vehicles. We're talking about MR. FLEGAL: I understand but I'm just saying, anything on the windows I don't like-- MS. BAISLEY: What I'm saying is the vehicle number. And that has been brought up to me about the vehicle number not meeting this requirement here because it's on the glass. MR. FLEGAL: Well, why can't it be on the deck lid or, you know -- MS. BAISLEY: It's more visible on the -- I mean, we've had cases where -- the reason that we started putting these vehicle numbers on because it was easier for us to spot our vehicles and we could say, "Oh, call 72 or whatever, and tell him he needs to do something," okay? And the sheriffs department also agreed with us that it made it much easier for the sheriff to tell us, "Hey, your Driver 72 was driving recklessly down the road" or something, "call him and get him to come in right away" or whatever. That's why it was put on the glass in the first place. MR. FLEGAL: I guess I don't see the difference between -- again, charter service vehicles, the rear window versus the -- CHAIRMAN PEASE' Do you put that same number on your airport connection vehicles? MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. Page 74 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: you'd like to see that struck. MS. BAISLEY: How -- how do you identify yours? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Our tag. Oh, your tags are numbered, yeah. MS. BAISLEY: value plates. MS. ARNOLD: So this would be important for you to -- Okay. say anything about numbers. MR. FLEGAL: It says lettering. MR. HYDE: It says lettering. MS. ARNOLD: Lettering. You have But our -- our current provision doesn't We're suggest ing adding -- MS. BAISLEY: Well, that's what I'm concerned about because I have had questions about whether or not those numbers need to be removed. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Lettering could be construed as numbers. You know, you go to get your car lettered. Just because it -- it doesn't mean you have to use letters. MR. PALMER: It's not a very precise word. It probably is -- it technically is limited to letters. MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. MR. FLEGAL: In the English language anyway. MR. PALMER: Yeah. However, there's two things in play here. Number 1, there may be state laws that limit the amount of lettering you can put on any window of a vehicle. And also there are lettering that may be required by some law. So if we're going to do this, we ought to at least modify it if we want to address the question of lettering anyway, get rid of the word "lettering" and add text or something and then say, "is permitted on any glass," unless it's required by law, because we don't purport to require to get rid of lettering that some law says you've got to have this on your window. But it may -- you also may want to say don't worry about it. I Page 75 June 19, 2001 wouldn't be surprised if there's a state law that says you can -- you can only obscure your windows a certain percentage by whatever, which would include lettering, in which case that law would supersede anything in this ordinance. Isn't anything that they're putting on a window MR. FLEGAL: considered a sign? MS. ARNOLD: Well, I wouldn't say that the number of-- somebody's numbering, that they're identifying their vehicles for would be considered a sign. But if it's something that -- with their names on it, yes, clearly it's -- it's advertising their business. MS. BAISLEY: If it's advertising they wouldn't put it on the of the door. MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: side Yeah. It's permitted on the side of the door. You're saying redundancy -- Right. MR. PALMER: -- putting it on the side, and then also adding it to the window. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So do you think you can clean that up? MR. PALMER: Well, with what-- with what-- with what policy are you landing on? I'll be happy to do it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't think anybody has any objections to having a vehicle number on the glass, do they? MR. CSOGI: No. You just keep the sentence that says "no text is permitted on any glass." that would be fine. MR. PALMER: Well, the letters -- the numbers would be text. MR. CSOGI: Well, then how about -- how about no alphabet letters? MS. ARNOLD: Leave it the way it is. MR. CSOGI: I like "lettering.". Page 76 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: What if they want to identify their cars by alphabet ? MR. FLEGAL: You know, the English language, a letter is a letter; a number is a number. MS. BAISLEY: Exactly. MR. PALMER: Text is more inclusive. MS. CRUZ: Keep in mind -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: One at a time, please. MS. CRUZ: -- this is under the charter service vehicles only. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Uh-huh. MS. CRUZ: So does that mean that the taxicabs can have the letterings on the glass? MR. FLEGAL: Well, first of all, in taxicabs their scheme was submitted this way (indicating). If there's no lettering across that black glass, there better not be any now because we didn't approve that. MS. BAISLEY: Well, I would like to mention that a lot of us were in business many, many years ago when photos were not given to get a permit here. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Even -- let me go a different way. You start with one car and all of a sudden you have five or six and you need a way to identify it, I don't -- I'm not sure if it matters if it's on the glass or on the back bumper. But I don't even know if we allow it on the -- do we allow it on there? MR. CSOGI: They didn't submit this either. They submitted everything but the windows. MR. FLEGAL: I understand. But as far as any vehicle hauling people, when you start painting the glass, I got a real problem with that. How in the hell do you see out? I don't care who you are, Yellow Cab, Checker Cab, whatever. When you're painting your name in 3- or 4-inch letters across the back of a window, how are you Page 77 June 19, 2001 supposed to see out that window? Come on, give me a break. Advertise on the side like normal people. MR. HYDE: Put Deezarilla (phonetic). MR. PALMER: Do you want to go ahead and leave that in there and qualify it by saying "unless required by law" 9 MS. ARNOLD: So no lettering is permitted on any glass. MR. PALMER: Unless required by law. Let's assume that-- in fact, if you apply this literally, nonsensically but literally, windows have identification numbers embossed in them. Literally this would apply to that. We certainly don't mean that, do we? CHAIRMAN PEASE: So to be attached. No -- no lettering or numbers; is that what you're saying? MR. HYDE: No lettering. CHAIRMAN PEASE: No lettering. But numbers -- I'm hearing conflict on the numbering side. I don't have a consensus -- I don't hear a consensus on that. MR. PALMER: Right now the word "lettering" makes it a distinction. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we want to take a consensus on -- MR. FLEGAL: I don't have a problem with the numbers because she's obviously saying the sheriff likes them. So, I mean, we want to help everybody we can help. I'm against, you know -- and I'm not trying to pick on Pat, but anybody that is putting Yellow Cab or the Hollywood Limousine Service or whatever -- I can't remember the other one I saw -- but that's ridiculous. You know, we're talking about we want nice clean vehicles for CEOs, but yet, hey, let them splash the name of their company all over the glass. CHAIRMAN PEASE: No lettering except vehicle numbers is permitted on any glass? Is that what -- MR. CSOGI: Vehicle ID number? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Vehicle ID number. I'm not big on it Page 78 June 19, 2001 either but -- MR. CSOGI: Yeah. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. Tom, come up with a decent-- we just don't want lettering, anything that's required by law, naturally -- MR. PALMER: Do you want to say that a vehicle -- only vehicle numbers and things required by law can be added or posted on glass? MR. CSOGI: ID number because some cars have their phone numbers on the back glass also, I've seen. MR. PALMER: Do you want to -- MR. CSOGI: No. Just-- MR. PALMER: Vehicle ID numbers. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And should that be moved out of charter and into the general scheme of everything? MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. MR. CSOGI: Yes. MR. PALMER: Well, I think elsewhere this provision may apply also elsewhere in the ordinance. I'm not sure in taxicabs. MS. CRUZ: It doesn't. MR. PALMER: No. MS. CRUZ: No. MR. PALMER: Oh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let's move that, Mr. Palmer, to -- MR. PALMER: Broaden its scope. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- to both. MR. FLEGAL: Shouldn't we limit the size of this. Is somebody going to put two -- . CHAIRMAN PEASE: What size do you use? They're pretty large, aren't they? They're, like, 6 inch? Nine inch? MS. BAISLEY: No. They're not big. Page 79 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: No? MR. HYDE: Like four inch? MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: MR. CSOGI: Home Depot. MS. BAISLEY: huge things but-- MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. Three or four inch? They're three or four inches. You're moving it to 6? The ones you buy at I mean, you don't want those to be, you know, If you don't limit it, you're going to have somebody saying-- you know, all of a sudden-- MR. PALMER: Four inches in height, would that do it? MR. PALMER: I'll look in the state statute. Just -- won't take me any time, but I believe there are generally applicable prohibitions that say you can only obscure a certain percentage of your windows. And I think it's, you know, 316. I'll take a look. Obviously people can't be driving around town with 90 percent of their windows obscured with lettering. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Anything else on charter service vehicles? MR. FLEGAL: What about the last sentence? CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think that -- let's -- let's defer that. And the reason I say that is because if the county is recommending deregulation, are they still going to want to have a taxi distinction between taxi and charter? That's what I didn't know. That's why I put a question mark on it, is does staff yet have a recommendation for deregulation or not? I know it's not the time line because the -- the Board of Commissioners didn't ask for it until the end of the year. MR. PALMER: Are we talking about E here? CHAIRMAN PEASE: We're talking about the last sentence in C. Page 80 June 19, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: The last sentence. MR. PALMER: Oh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Which may or may not relate to deregulation. MS. ARNOLD: I have an opinion on it, but staff doesn't have a position on it at this point, and it's -- it's something that this board has to discuss. MR. FLEGAL: Bryan, you've said-- I'm -- maybe I was out of town or something. I keep hearing deregulation. Where did this come from? I've never heard that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: The county commissioners voted-- when they got rid of the $2 fuel surcharge, they gave staff one year to come back and look at the issue of deregulation because several of the commissioners were against the -- even the concept of regulating a maximum rate. And so they -- as part of that vote, they staff-- they made staff-- gave staff one year to come back with a proposal either to continue with our current system or to deregulate. MR. PALMER: Rates. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Rates. MS. ARNOLD: There was a question about giving the board information as to how we got to the position we are in today where we are evaluating rates and making recommendations to the board. And so the board kind of wanted, like, a background-- some background information and -- and determine whether or not this is a practice we want to continue to do. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's not -- not to say that deregulate the industry -- I think that's a good distinction, Mr. Palmer. MS. ARNOLD: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Are these your rates? And so my comment was, well, if-- if there is going to be dereg -- if that's what proposed, and -- and the commissioners, by the way, didn't say, Page 81 June 19, 2001 "Come back to the PVAC." they said "staff." and that's why I said to staff-- and I said, "Look, I'd like to see PVAC involved," and Michelle said "Absolutely, we'll do this as a joint effort and not just the staff saying one thing without the PVAC having at least some comment on it." MR. FLEGAL: Well, I guess my-- my feeling was, I notice some of the thing -- we keep talking about changing this ordinance. And primarily you keep saying, "Well, we're going to deregulate. It's going to be deregulate -- it's going to be deregulated.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm not saying that it's going to be deregulated. And if I led you to believe that -- MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. I mean, because I'm against taking out the rates. I don't like in this town -- because we have so many elderly people --just saying, "Taxicabs can charge whatever they like," told a little old lady, because her only way to get around in town is in a cab, to go a mile and a half. That's unfortunate. But if that's all she can do and it's going to cost her ten bucks, she's never going to be able to go to the hospital. So -- I'm against that kind of thing, but I keep hearing we're deregulating. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That -- nobody-- nobody has said-- nobody has said -- let me correct you. Nobody has said we're -- we are deregulating. We're -- we're saying that this ties into the issue of the deregulation of rate. They're no top -- unless I'm wrong, if you're not regulating rate, you would not need, then, a meter. MR. PALMER: No. That's not so. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You still need -- MR. PALMER: The ordinance says that you have to have a meter, and you have to have a rate that coincides with the meter. That way anybody could just charge anybody anything on a per-trip basis. People would be -- just be at the mercy of unscrupulous taxicab drivers. Page 82 June 19, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: Then the last sentence should stay in no matter what. MS. ARNOLD: But that's -- but that's a lighted device on the roof of the car. It's not speaking to the meter. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Oh, that's true. That's true. Which would there be if-- under the hypothesis if there was deregulated rates, there would still be charter and taxicab; correct? MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So then that's not an issue. MS. ARNOLD: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It should stay in. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. Now we go to 142-35. MR. PALMER: Well, we got -- have you got the -- the section about certificates being on subcontracted vehicles? This is an extremely important provision, and maybe you don't have it in your -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Nobody has your version. MR. PALMER: All right. Well, it says only vehicles for hire operated under a Collier County certificate may be subcontracted. All subcontracted vehicles must be insured up to the maximum insurance requirements by insurance coverage of a vehicle-for-hire business to which each such vehicle for hire is being subcontracted. That means you can only -- you can only subcontract vehicles if you hold a certificate and that this -- and that your insurance must cover the subcontracted vehicle. It can't -- it can have additional, but its only insurance can't bring the insurance it brings to the -- to the -- to the contract. MR. HYDE: Right. MR. PALMER: And I think I've nailed this, because this is what we discussed about the problem of this ad hoc subcontracting, and the only insurance coverage is the insurance that the Page 83 June 19, 2001 subcontracted vehicle brings along. And we said that's not a good situation. So maybe you're saying leave that in. MR. FLEGAL: Oh, yeah. I would leave that in because we don't have that. But now that you've read it, I mean -- MR. PALMER: Because this wasn't sort of a hard line. MR. FLEGAL: -- we want everything covered. MR. HYDE: I remember that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MR. PALMER: Otherwise you're going to get -- we're going to lose control of the subcontracting of vehicles. I mean, the county would have no idea who's subcontracting what and when and anything about the insurance of the subcontracted vehicle. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Can you read that first sentence again for me, please. MR. PALMER: Only vehicles for hire being operated under a Collier County certificate may be subcontracted. In other words, if I'm going to sub -- now, or -- or you might want to expand that to maybe another county. But right now it says, "If I want to subcontract a vehicle, my vehicle must be recognized by Collier County as a vehicle for hire." this does not apply to a vehicle coming in from Lee County. Now, that may be a problem. MS. BAISLEY: That's going to be a problem. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Exactly. It is -- I -- I'd like to see that in writing so I can really look at it because I can do better with visible -- MR. PALMER: Right now, if you -- that's a problem. You'd have to expand that to contracted by -- certificated by another county, Collier County or another county. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: That would be expanded. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, I think this applies to Eric just as well. He has 400 people at his hotel, and they're with Ford and they Page 84 June 19, 2001 want all Lincoln limousines, which that happened several times a year by several companies. I have to go out and get more product than what this county has. And so I had -- this past year I had cars from Fort Lauderdale, Miami, Tampa, Sarasota in order to -- because you may need 30 or 40 cars at one time. MS. ARNOLD: But that would be equivalent to the limo temporary tags that we do for prom night. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Prom nights. Exactly. MS. ARNOLD: So that wouldn't -- and this would not apply to that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well -- MS. ARNOLD: Because that's a temporary thing. It's not -- you're having it under contract for a year, which is some -- what some people do have. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Can I -- can I get a copy of that in writing so I can-- MR. PALMER: Yeah. But this does not make that distinction between a week or a year. MS. ARNOLD: But there is language I thought we talked about that said we wanted -- we would -- we wouldn't -- we didn't want the ordinance to prevent the temporary con -- contracts that are for an event or an occasion or something like that because you don't have the -- the supply here locally. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But I did not hear-- MS. ARNOLD: And they come in and get temporary tags. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But I did not hear that stated in what he read. MR. PALMER: Well, no. This provision does not make a distinction between one week or one year. If you want to expand this to certificates issued by any Florida city or county, we could do that. MR. FLEGAL: Could we -- could we change this to help their Page 85 June 19, 2001 situation? If it said vehicles being operated except on a temporary basis or something, would that give them the limit to do their, maybe, one-week event or, you know, even if it's a couple times a year, it's still just a one-week event. MS. ARNOLD: I thought we did talk about that the last time. MR. FLEGAL: Would that work? MR. PALMER: There is something else in here about that but - MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. Under the -- the definition of subcon-- subcontracted vehicles. That's when we had that lengthy discussion about temporary short-term basis. MS. BAISLEY: What she's saying is, for instance, I had an operator that owns his own vehicle that wanted to work with my company. He has a new Town Car. He had his own insurance and his own name for that vehicle that meet the requirements of this ordinance. When I presented that to the county to get a permit on the particular vehicle, the permit was denied because the insurance was not in my name. The insurance was in the operator's -- the driver's name who owned the vehicle. They wanted the insurance to be in my company name. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does that matter? MS. BAISLEY: Well, that's what-- MR. FLEGAL: Well-- MS. BAISLEY: -- we had the whole big problem with it. MR. FLEGAL: If she's hiring them and she doesn't -- she doesn't have any insurance protection and that vehicle has an accident MS. BAISLEY: Well, I did because I was named as an additionally insured on his policy. MR. HYDE: That's how it's done right now. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. Well, then I don't have a problem with Page 86 June 19, 2001 that. MS. BAISLEY: But it's not acceptable to them. MS. CRUZ: The way that it works, if it's a temporary vehicle and you're subcontracting for a two-day event, that vehicle is the responsibility of the certificate holder. That vehicle can carry its own insurance, not the certificate holder's insurance. When you're going to subcontract a vehicle for longer, like the driver and his vehicle is going to be working for Yellow Cab, for example, Yellow Cab is the one that needs to carry the insurance for that particular vehicle. In your case, if you're going to need 40 additional vehicles and coming from another company for a one-day event, we being -- we've been accepting their insurance. MS. BAISLEY: This is something that has just changed recently, because before it was accept -- acceptable to the county. For me to be as an additional insured on that particular person's vehicle. MR. HYDE: Correct. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, I -- MS. BAISLEY: Now it's not. Now it has to be that the insurance is in my name. MR. FLEGAL: Why isn't it acceptable, just let me ask that question. I understand what she's saying, and if she's covered, then-- MS. CRUZ: The ordinance reads that it is the responsibility of the certificate holder to make sure that all the vehicles are in accordance with our ordinance, which is, you know, the inspections, the insurance, the permits -- MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MS. CRUZ: -- the drivers -- MR. FLEGAL: Okay. But if-- if the man's insurance that's coming to be subcontracted is the exact same limits as required by this, then she's got this lease or whatever she signs that -- so it's Page 87 June 19, 2001 covered. MS. CRUZ: The man is not insured-- the man is not licensed through Collier County. The man does not hold a certificate. We gave the certificate to Yellow Cab, not to that particular driver. CHAIRMAN PEASE: My comment is, if I was in her shoes, I would want their insurance and for me to be listed as an additional insured because that driver's attorneys -- it's going to be his attorneys who are going to have to defend himself in court, not me. I mean, I'm going to be the big pocket where I'm going to get hit, too, but I don't have to pay the attorney's fees. MS. BAISLEY: I don't understand. And I -- and we went along with it, and we -- we have double insurance on this particular vehicle. I have my insurance; he has his. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What I heard is the only reason we did it that way is because that's what the ordinance says, not necessary -- MS. BAISLEY: That's -- that's what they kept telling me. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Not necessarily that it was the right thing to do. MR. PALMER: Well, right now the ordinance -- the definition on page 3 limits subcontracted vehicles to the short-term durations. You don't have these annual subcontracted vehicles. Now, that's a policy decision, and I think that was really addressed when we addressed this definition. I think the decision was made, no, we're not going to get into these long-term subcontracts. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. The concern that we were having is that we have -- we -- we've licensed a company with so many vehicles and so many drivers. And now essentially what we're doing with these subcontractors, somebody else from somewhere else, instead of going through the licensing process, is now subcontracting with this company that's gone through the process, and the insurance doesn't say anything about that company, who we've permitted. It -- it's Page 88 June 19,2001 separate. It -- it only covers the vehicles and that person who's covered -- who's driving that vehicle. It does not -- there's no connection between who the county has licensed. MS. BAISLEY: There is if you're named as an additionally insured on that insurance policy. MR. FLEGAL: When you -- when you get these vehicles, do you subcontract them, or do you lease them? MS. ARNOLD: Subcontract. MS. BAISLEY: The vehicle is owned by a driver. MR. FLEGAL: Right. But are you -- MS. BAISLEY: The vehicle is owned by a driver who brings that vehicle to my company to lease it to my company. MR. FLEGAL: Right. Okay. So-- MS. BAISLEY: And he drives it under my rules and regulations MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: Right. But it's a leased vehicle. He leases it to me. Okay. It's not a subcontracted vehicle. No. MR. FLEGAL: It's a leased vehicle, and nowhere in our description of anything do we talk about leased vehicles. So I'm-- I'm still trying to get back to why it -- since it's leased to you, it's operating -- it's under your certificate. So I don't understand what the problem is. I'm still lost as to why the insurance isn't good. MR. PALMER: No. I would definitely -- obviously, it is good. I'm sure her insurance policy automatically covers any vehicle that she leases. MS. BAISLEY: But what I'm saying, too, is that insurance that's in place on that vehicle when we originally tried to take this vehicle to the county to get a permit was this individual's insurance -- MR. FLEGAL: Right. Page 89 June 19, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: -- which exceeded the limits that are required by this ordinance. And I was named as additionally insured. Yellow Cab of Naples was additionally insured on this policy, and it was denied by the county to get a permit because the insurance was, in fact, not directly in my name. MS. ARNOLD: We had a situation, I think, before where a new company or an additional vehicle was coming through, and then that was a requirement that the board made that the insurance of that leased vehicle was being leased from somebody else be in that company's name. And so that's -- I think that the policy that we've been following that it's in that company's name, not as an additional insured -- now, I don't know the difference between additional insured or insured -- MR. HYDE: Same. MS. ARNOLD: -- with -- MR. FLEGAL: It's the same. MS. ARNOLD: -- with respect to the -- MR. PALMER: The issue in your case was whether that-- whether the vehicle had to be covered by the insurance company of the company leasing the vehicle. That is your company. That was the issue in that case. MS. ARNOLD: No, no, no, no. It was the -- MR. PALMER: The vehicle had insurance. The question was whether or not your company had insurance that covered the vehicle. That was the issue that was addressed to me. MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. MR. PALMER: And it was decided that the ordinance at the time said that when you lease a vehicle that your insurance must cover the vehicle. If the vehicle has its own insurance, so much the better. That doesn't matter; that wasn't the issue. The issue was that the only insurance on that vehicle was the insurance that came with Page 90 June 19, 2001 the vehicle and was not insured by the company that was leasing the vehicle. At least that was the way it was expressed to me on the phone. MS. CRUZ: Right. But the only insurance that it was provided was for that vehicle. MR. PALMER: And-- and came with the vehicle. MS. CRUZ: Right. MR. PALMER: The holder of that policy was not the owner of this company but the person that owned the car. MS. CRUZ: Right. MR. PALMER: And that was the issue. MS. CRUZ: Right. Because the owner of the policy is not the owner of the certificate. That's right. That was the problem. But you just said that additionally insured is MR. PALMER: MS. BAISLEY: the same as insured. MR. PALMER: No. I'm saying that the text here says that all subcontracted vehicles must be insured by the company leasing or hiring the vehicle. Now that doesn't say anything about additional insurance. The fact of the matter is, when I hire a vehicle, my insurance must cover the vehicle. That's the issue. We're not going to rely on the insurance only of the vehicle, because the county will have no knowledge or control over any of that, will have no idea what kind of insurance is coming and going with vehicles coming in and out. MS. BAISLEY: Well, they are going to because there is a certificate holder. So when that insurance is dropped because they didn't make their payments or whatever, they're going to be notified just as well as on that policy as they would be if-- MR. PALMER: When that matter was brought to me, there wasn't a question of-- or even addressed whether or not the vehicle Page 91 June 19, 2001 being leased was certificated by Collier County or anybody else. It was just a taxicab. Nobody said anything to me about whether or not that car had been certificated by Collier County or not. The question was about the -- the insurance of that vehicle. I didn't even know where that vehicle came from or who certificated it. It was just described to me as a taxicab. MS. BAISLEY: It's not even a taxicab. It's charter service. MR. FLEGAL: Let's ask the basic question because I think a lot of us are confused here. We want everybody protected. But if any of these people go and lease a vehicle for a year because I want to go to work for her, so I go to her and say, "I've got great insurance, here it is. I want to come work for you, let's sign a lease," and I'll drive it now -- and she's going to go get me a tag, a permit under her company. Okay so far? Now, why does she have to go get insurance? Why is my insurance not any good ? MR. PALMER: That's a policy question. Under the ordinance now we determined you cannot lease a vehicle unless your insurance covers the vehicle. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. I guess my question is, does it matter as long as the insurance is what is required as to whether it's in Cliff Flegal's name or Yellow Cab's name as long as I've got Yellow Cab as an additional insured? Does it really make a difference? MR. PALMER: It's a question of-- of-- of knowing what is going on. We have better knowledge of knowing that a certificated company has insurance. We don't know anything about these cabs that are coming in and out of leases. We have to rely on the certificated company, but we do not know that, in fact, that that vehicle has insurance. We don't know that. And it's possible that if a leasing company doesn't have insurance, that that insurance that supposedly covers the vehicle is void or been terminated or -- what we don't know for a fact that the vehicle is insured. Page 92 June 19, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: I disagree because the certificate itself is being made out to the Collier County Board of Commissioners just like my other certificates are. So when there's a problem they receive notification just like they would from my insurance. MS. ARNOLD: Well, it is a policy question. But I know that I've been at the board meetings, and we made new companies do what we asked you to do, put it in your name and your name -- that company's name and that company's name only, even though Collier County is named as the -- the person that they should contact in the event that the -- the insurance -- so it's a policy thing that this board needs to decide because the ordinance says what it says. And if you decide not to require that, as long as the -- the company that's permitted or certificate -- holds a certificate from Collier County and named as the additional insured, if that's going to be sufficient for this board, that's something that we would have to revise the ordinance to say. MR. PALMER: There's a problem because the ordinance right now talks about that the vehicle being leased must be certificated by Collier County. There's discussion to say get rid of that, apply that to Lee County or any other county or city that certificates a vehicle and let us bring them in and lease them, then we know less about the insurance. It was just suggested that the word "certificated" under Collier County certificate is too narrow and should be expanded, in which case we get a leased vehicle coming in if we're away from Lee County and all Collier County knows for sure or hopes to know for sure is that vehicle's certificated by Lee County. You don't know anything about the insurance coverage on that vehicle. And if I had a company I could have half my fleet-leased vehicles with the only insurance on them is up to the vehicle owner paying the policy, and I don't even know for a fact whether that policy lapsed last week. MS. BAISLEY: You are going to know because the additional Page 93 June 19, 2001 insured is-- MR. PALMER: This does not say that you have to be an additional insured. It just says that the insurance coverage must apply to the vehicle that's being leased. It says nothing about additional insured. MS. BAISLEY: Okay. I agree with you. But if the words "additionally insured" were put in there, then whoever is an additional insured or certificate holder is going to receive notification of a cancellation of a policy. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Whether or not -- there's, like, three different side issues happening all in this one text. MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think my suggestion is that you give everybody a copy of it and we take a look at it because I don't think it distinguishes between a-- solidly enough between a temporary, which is -- we're calling per -- MR. FLEGAL: Short term, really. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. -- and then a lease. I think they're almost two different issues. And we're putting them all in one lump. I'm not sure they work good together-- MR. PALMER: Well, they may not. There may be distinctions that we have never addressed specifically, the distinctions, if any, between a subcontracted vehicle and a leased vehicle. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. And this is our opportunity to do that. MR. PALMER: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: With -- with the new ordinance review. So do we want to -- MR. FLEGAL: Well, on that one -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- defer that until the next meeting? MR. PALMER: Well, have you any thoughts about leased Page 94 June 19, 2001 vehicles, about what kind of regulations you want to have apply to any vehicle that's available to lease? CHAIRMAN PEASE: My personal opinion -- throwing away the temporary for a moment and just talking about a leased vehicle, my personal thought is an additional insured is sufficient. Now, maybe I'm missing something because I'm not legal. But that is sufficient because it still has to be stickered on the back. It still has to be inspected. It still has to do -- meet all the requirements as if you owned the car; you're just leasing the car. So -- and from a business perspective I'd rather have that person's insurance as -- at the front end first and then me be the second. And then that -- that's just my own preference. MR. PALMER: Well, the problem is that the ordinance now does not -- it says that you only -- the only insurance is your insurance if we're going to apply this to leased vehicles. The other thing is, what about the short-term lease. You said the vehicle has all these things. Does that apply to a vehicle that I lease for one week? That doesn't, does it? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Correct, it does not. MR. PALMER: No. So that -- what you just said does not -- does not apply. You said it has the sticker and everything else. A vehicle that I lease for a week does not have that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's correct. MR. PALMER: And the county doesn't know diddle about these leases that are coming in and coming out on a weekly basis. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yeah. And then you get into an issue if they sign a new lease every week. MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Which there are cab operators that do it, not necessarily in this county. MS. BAISLEY: You can make the provision that the lease has Page 95 June 19, 2001 to be for six months or a year or whatever and not one -- you could make a provision that the lease be for six months or a year's time. MR. PALMER: That's unenforceable. The thing is -- wanted him, a man six months. The guy crapped out on me after two weeks. And you can't -- it won't work. We're got to really address this question. It's -- it's very important that the county know that vehicles that are operating in Collier County for hire are insured. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I agree with that. Everybody agrees with that, Mr. Palmer. MR. PALMER: And we have no knowledge about the insurance of a vehicle that comes in for a week unless it's -- happens, and we don't know whether it has or -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yes, we're -- before we can get a temporary, we have to show proof of insurance. The county gets that, even on a temporary. Go ahead, Eric. MR. PALMER: Well, there's nothing in the ordinance that says that. That may be the case, and that's good, but the ordinance doesn't say that. MR. HYDE: We have certificates, and we also have the stickers, but we also have temporary stickers which are for the special events. So if, for example, we're doing a Ford program or whatever and we need X amount of vehicles, we then say, okay, these are the vehicles that are coming in. And then Damian, or whoever it is, brings a list. "these are the vehicles; this is the insurance. This is everything that we have on the vehicle. What else do we need?" and then they say, "You need this, this, and this." we go back and get that, we present it, and then we get temporary stickers for those vehicles so the county knows everything we've got going on. MR. PALMER: All right. Are these -- are these leases or-- or temporary short subcontracts? MR. HYDE: Maybe a-- two days, a day. Page 96 June 19, 2001 MR. PALMER: Why would I ever want to lease a vehicle for a week? CHAIRMAN PEASE: There are -- I know -- MS. BAISLEY: I don't do it for a week. I do it for six months to a year's time. CHAIRMAN PEASE: There are -- for instance, Yellow Cab in Chicago, when I was talking to the driver a couple years ago -- maybe it's changed, but he signed a weekly lease. He didn't want to drive for a week or he didn't want to run the car for a week or be in charge of the car, he didn't run. They leased-- they leased the car in that situation. Yellow Cab owned the vehicle -- MR. PALMER: Well, that's a reverse situation. MS. BAISLEY: That's a different kind of a situation. MR. HYDE: That's the other side. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You're right. But you do it because I want to come to work MR. FLEGAL: for you. MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: That's right. And I'm willing to let you paint my car yellow, and I'm bringing it, and I want to work for you for a year or whatever. And I'm leasing to you. I don't -- you know, you don't want to buy me a car, but you'll lease mine for X. MS. BAISLEY: Right. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And so why is it important -- I mean, on the temporary we don't require Hollywood Limo out of Fort Lauderdale to be -- MS. BAISLEY: Directly insured. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- on my insurance, although my insurance covers all leased vehicles. But the county doesn't require that. So why would -- what's the difference between a week and Page 97 June 19, 2001 three months? MR. PALMER: No. I think the county does require that. I think the ordinance presently written says that when you lease a vehicle your insurance must cover that vehicle, period, no exceptions. MR. PALMER: The question: Do we want to allow vehicles to be leased to a certificated company, and the only insurance on that vehicle is the insurance that comes with that vehicle? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Mr. -- Mr. Flegal, do you have an opinion on that? MR. FLEGAL: I -- I'm not an insurance agent, and I -- and I understand what Tom's saying. We want the county protected, and then I don't -- MR. PALMER: We want the passenger and the citizenry protect ed. MR. FLEGAL: Right. But I'm -- I'm -- I'm talking the whole apple here. So why isn't -- if we make that insurance -- it's made out to Cliff Flegal and an additional insured is Yellow Cab, and because it's going to be for whatever time they get the additional insured of Collier County and then just live with it. I mean, I -- I don't know -- do we not have any protection that way or -- MR. PALMER: I'll tell you what the problem is. If you've got 50 leased vehicles, you've got 50 questions about the insurability on the scope of the insurance of the vehicles. When you have a company that leases vehicles, you have one insurance policy, one premium player-- payer, and every car that comes in and out of a lease is insured by that policy. When you've got 50 insurance -- insured vehicles, every one of them is a different case. MS. ARNOLD: Well, I mean, it's no different from a new company that comes in and rather than taking on the expense of buying that vehicle for that company they want to start up, they want to lease it, we require them to put it in their company-- the insurance Page 98 June 19, 2001 in the company name. So, I mean if we -- it is a policy thing. If you want to leave it alone -- I mean, if we want to allow them to just put themself as additional insured, we can do that and change the wording of the -- MR. FLEGAL: Well-- MR. PALMER: What is the problem about requiring the company leasing the vehicle to have an insurance policy that covers each leased vehicle? MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. That was going to be my next question. The existing insurance you have would -- would it -- if you leased my vehicle, is it automatically covered, or is it additional? MS. BAISLEY: It would depend upon the person's insurance. Everybody is different. MR. PALMER: No, your insurance. MR. FLEGAL: No. Whatever your insurance policy -- the one you own right now. MS. BAISLEY: I understand that, but I'm saying every company's is different. Every company's policy is different. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. But I -- MS. BAISLEY: Mine would cover that. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. So if we leave it like it is, for you right now it's not a problem if you lease my vehicle; it's going to be automatically covered under your policy. MS. BAISLEY: But they're saying they want specific coverage on a specific vehicle. MR. PALMER: MS. BAISLEY: No. Mine is covered for subcontracted vehicles on MR. PALMER: No. We're saying if I'm a company in Collier County and I want to lease a vehicle, it's mandatory that my insurance cover that vehicle automatically. That's -- that's all. Page 99 June 19, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: And that's what I said. If I come to you to lease my vehicle to you, as soon as you and I sign that lease, your insurance covers me. MR. PALMER: Right. MR. FLEGAL: And they're happy. MS. ARNOLD: So you have to show us how your insurance adds that particular vehicle to its coverage. MR. FLEGAL: And that's all they want to say. my insurance policy if I go lease a car. MR. PALMER: It's covered. It's kind of like MR. FLEGAL: policy covers that. MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: written in there. Because I'm going out of town, my State Farm terln days Of course. I don't have to tell State Farm. It's a clause. Any vehicle I lease -- It's just -- it's MS. BAISLEY: Yeah. But that's not the case on -- on a long- leasing situation. On a temporary basis, I think, for two or three if you leased a vehicle from somebody, it would cover it. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MS. BAISLEY: If I went to Hertz and -- and leased a car, that's a different situation than if I lease a car from one of my drivers -- . MR. FLEGAL: Okay. But what I'm asking -- MS. BAISLEY: -- to my company for six months. MR. FLEGAL: What I'm asking is -- and maybe you don't know the answer to this, but in your insurance policy, if I lease to you for six months or more, would your insurance cover my car that I'm leasing to you? MS. BAISLEY: on my policy. MR. FLEGAL: say, "Hey, I'm leasing Cliff's car. Not unless that car was specifically registered Okay. And to call your insurance company and Add this to my policy" -- Page 100 June 19, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: Right. They will send me a bill for the additional premium for that vehicle. MR. FLEGAL: That was going to be my question. Is it going to cost you additional -- MS. BAISLEY: Oh, yes. MR. FLEGAL: -- or is there -- MS. BAISLEY: It's not a blanket situation. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MR. PALMER: Well, we -- we've got problems here. For example, does the -- if I'm going to lease a vehicle for six months, shouldn't that vehicle be independently certificated by Collier County, or we're going to have cars coming in and out of leases all over the place that -- we're going to lose control over it. MR. HYDE: That was -- that was my question. I mean, if the gentleman is coming in, even if he's working as a -- as a contractor or subcontractor through you, my feeling would have been that, A, he would have, No. 1, gotten his certificate or gotten his license to do whatever he wants to do, leased his -- he bought his vehicle or he owns his vehicle and he now wants to subcontract it through you, but he should already be licensed or certificated in order to do that -- MS. ARNOLD: No, huh-uh. It would only -- it would apply to -- if they're subcontracting through Yellow Cab, then it's Yellow Cab that we have the information on, not that driver. MR. HYDE: Well -- but it would be the -- I thought it would be the comp -- for example, this guy, Eric Hyde Enterprises owns a vehicle, and I'm now going to sublet my vehicle for one year to The Registry, a Town Car. And that vehicle I'm going to give to them for one year. I would then go to the board and request, A, the license or the -- the permit, the certificate and do that and then The Registry would have one too. MS. ARNOLD: That's not what happens. Page 101 June 19, 2001 MR. HYDE: No. That's the way I figured it would work. No? MS. ARNOLD: We don't know anything about that. MR. PALMER: That's the problem. We could have a company that could have 50 leased vehicles not certificated by Collier County with their own 50 individual insurance policies. MR. HYDE: All right. Well, then I was under misapprehension (sic) because I thought you had to have -- okay. MR. FLEGAL: I guess we need to find a way to correct that because we do need to ensure that there is this insurance, and I don't - - I don't know another way to do it other than the way Tom's already saying we have it written. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any thoughts, Mr. Csogi? MR. CSOGI: Not at this point. MR. PALMER: My thing is, is if a on -- if a car is going to be leased to Yellow Cab for a -- a year, why in the world shouldn't that vehicle be certificated by Collier County? MR. CSOGI: It should be. MS. BAISLEY: It is. MR. PALMER: No. about it not having to be. This -- no, we're -- we're talking now MS. BAISLEY: Okay. But currently it is. MR. PALMER: Currently it is. But now we're talking about, no, it doesn't have to be. We're talking about -- right now it says it has to be certificated by Collier County. We're talking about now about any other county in Florida to bring in cars from -- from St. Pete and so forth. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You've got to split up. MR. HYDE: No, that's -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: The temporary hanging decal sticker that goes on the windshield or mirror and a lease, those are two different items. Page 102 June 19, 2001 MR. HYDE: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And they should not be under the same umbrella. MR. PALMER: All right. Well -- or maybe they should if-- but if it's going to be more than a week or so -- you get nice distinctions between a subcontracted vehicle and a leased vehicle. Why not just say if it's going to be more than a week, then that things kick in; if it's going to be for short term, these lesser requirements apply. MR. CSOGI: Well, who is to say that somebody can't keep re- signing a lease? CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's what I brought up. MR. CSOGI: Why don't you say -- why don't you go further and say-- MR. PALMER: No. If it's going to be leased or subcontracted for more than eight or nine continuous days, it must be certificated and so on. We can do this. I don't -- I'd recommend that we not do this on nice distinctions between subcontracting and leases because they're very technical. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We talked about doing this at the last meeting. I -- I wished we -- the one thing we did not get after this last meeting was the -- the minutes, which was what I wanted before this meeting. So if we could get both copies sent to us before our next meeting it would be a big help. But I know, from recall, we -- I believe we talked about separating those distinctly. MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But I don't even think seven days works because he could have four back-to-back programs of four -- MR. PALMER: That's just a suggestion. I'm talking about when people need a vehicle for a short-term basis, special events, even back-to-back, it's one thing. When people are actually getting Page 103 June 19, 2001 vehicles under their company name that they don't own, either by a subcontract or a lease that's of-- of a duration of, like, a month, six months, a year, it's an entirely different matter. MS. ARNOLD: Can I interrupt just for a second? We do have Alan here, and there was a situation with the rates and the meters that I'd like for him to bring to the committee's attention -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: We've got about ten minutes. MS. ARNOLD: -- before we break up. And we could -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, I think-- MS. ARNOLD: We could come back and review the minutes and-- and everything else to -- MR. PALMER: Well, my recollection is that I -- I got this language out of my notes -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MR. PALMER: -- and I thought this was based on the discussion we had at the last meeting. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I agree. We'll close out with this part. But what I'd like to do is, then, I'd like to get a copy of this third draft when it's -- when it's done before the meeting and a copy of the last two minutes from these meetings sent to every PVAC member. MR. PALMER: I don't know what happened, but I e-mailed a copy of this the day I did it to Michelle. Maybe she didn't get it. MS. ARNOLD: I didn't get it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And that way we'll see the verbiage you're talking about, and that will help me make sense of-- MR. PALMER: When I get this done in a day or two, I will get it to e -- to e-mail it to Michelle, and my assumption is that somebody in her staff will disseminate it within a day or two to everybody here. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Can you do that in one packet with the -- how long does it -- does it usually take for the minutes to come back to you? Page 104 June 19, 2001 THE COURT REPORTER: Two weeks. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Two weeks. THE COURT REPORTER: Two weeks to the day. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Don't hold it up for that, then. But you can send the first meeting's minutes. Have those been printed out and given to them? THE COURT REPORTER: Two weeks from the date they were held, yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: right? MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: third draft. him. So that you've got a printout of that; Okay. If you could send that with his MS. ARNOLD: Do you guys all have e-mail? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yes. MR. CSOGI: I was going to say, it would be easier. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's right. MS. ARNOLD: I can e-mail you guys when I get it rom -- from And then we'll put in the mail the minutes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That would be great. MS. ARNOLD: If you guys can just write it -- write it on this thing ... CHAIRMAN PEASE: What is that thing? MS. ARNOLD: This piece of paper. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. The floor is yours. MR. WALKER: Something-- we ran into a problem on the course. The problem is, in Handbook 44 on Section S-21, seconds of initial time interval, distance of initial mileage interval, okay, what this basically boils down to in English is, you have 2.15, 35. And what it works out to is 40 cents a minute. Taxi meters cannot calculate that rate. We need to change that to either zeros or fives, is Page 105 June 19, 2001 the real simple way of putting this. In other words, instead of 35 cents, change it to 40, or change it to 30. What you've got is, on a normal taxi course, we would run that car down. And this -- this first tenth of a mile is also a problem. We would get into a car, and the way that it would normally work is you would go on two-tenths of a mile or a tenth of a mile all the way down your course. With the way that your rate is set up at 2.15 for the first tenth of a mile and then two -tenths of a mile every time thereafter for a drop. What we call drop is your meter changing. It's really causing a problem for the state. MR. PALMER: What should it say? What would -- how should we round these minimally ? MR. WALKER: The easiest way for you people to do this would either be to go with one -tenth of a mile all the way down -- the meter changes every tenth or every two -tenths -- drop this first tenth of a mile or a fraction thereof and go with the first two-tenths of a mile or a fraction thereof. Besides the tenths, though, do we have to drop MR. FLEGAL: the five on the end? MR. WALKER: We need to change that also, because what that does is that violates -- it actually violates Handbook 44 because the taxi meter can't be set up to read a nickel or a dime. It's got to be a nickel and a nickel or a dime and a dime. MR. PALMER: five, five, five? MR. WALKER: MR. PALMER: couldn't you? MR. WALKER: 2.15 -- MR. PALMER: Oh. It can't go -- what if you just do five, five, Fine. Perfect. Well, then you could come up with 35 cents, Yup. You could drop that and stay with the For the first two-tenths of a mile -- Page 106 June 19,2001 MR. WALKER: Right. And what it comes up to, though, on this -- and it's that tenth of a mile that's messing it up -- on your timing, it's 40 cents a minute in order to calibrate it. The way that they calibrate a meter is once that meter is set up to run the distance, the meter automatically calibrates its time. There's no separate calibration there. And what it's done is, the meter is looking at this and saying, okay, at this, I came up with 3.90 -- or, I'm sorry, 4.25 and -- at the end of a mile and a tenth, the meter comes up and says, well, 40 cents a minute; that doesn't work. So it calibrates itself a different way. And what we actually came up with, instead of a minute, we were having to look for drops at 28 seconds and 52 seconds in order to pass these cars. The rate cards don't match that. MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. MR. PALMER: Well, what would be the minimal adjustments? For example, for the first -- assuming we're going to have rate regulation here -- for the first two-tenths of a mile or a fraction thereof, that takes care of one -tenth of a mile because it's a fraction. MR. WALKER: That would drop it to a mile and would calibrate the meter easier. MR. PALMER: Well, we could say, "for the first two-tenths of a mile or a fraction thereof." would that make sense ? MR. WALKER: Yes, it would. MR. PALMER: And you could-- would 2.15 be a -- something that could be programmed in, or would it have to be, like, 2.20 or 2.107 MR. WALKER: You could go with 2.15, but it's going to change. And what's going to change is, you're going to drop that tenth of a mile at the end of the course. And it's going to make that computer inside there look at that and go, okay, we can round this up now instead of having to drop it a tenth, and everything goes to two- Page 107 June 19, 2001 tenths. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. But if we start with two-tenths -- MR. WALKER: Uh-huh. MR. FLEGAL: -- instead of a tenth and then do everything else in two-tenths, does that-- MR. WALKER: Yes. MR. FLEGAL: -- because that's two and two, and we evidently get to ten, which is a mile. MR. PALMER: Well, does it read one-tenth of a mile? MR. WALKER: Right here on your rates -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yes, it does. MR. WALKER: -- it says for the first one-tenth of a mile or a fraction thereof. MR. PALMER: Right. But that's -- right. But -- but for the next one, for an additional two-tenths, obviously, you can change that for every additional one-tenth mile and cut the thing in half. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Exactly. Does that make more sense to you? Either way. You could go with the first two- MR. PALMER: MR. WALKER: tenths -- MR. PALMER: But go-- MR. WALKER: -- and go two-tenths all the way down or first one -tenth and go -- MR. PALMER: But don't split. MR. WALKER: -- all the way down. Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It would be -- it would be easier to do the two-tenths. But this has to be an ordinance change; correct? MR. WALKER: Yeah. Right. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, so -- before we do a rate change, though, they could do an ordinance change to change that one sentence from two-tenths to one-tenth and-- and take the 3 5 cents Page 108 June 19, 2001 and make it whatever. MR. PALMER: Whatever. But now -- MR. FLEGAL: Seventeen cents or eighteen cents or something MR. PALMER: -- does this relate to the -- to the 40 cents per minute in the timing ? MR. WALKER: It will round that out again. What we're looking at now is, in order to get 40 cents a minute, we're looking at drops to go -- and it still will come out to 40 cents a minute. We're getting drops at 26 seconds and another one at 52 seconds. If you rounded the -- drop that tenth off, it will round itself out to a minute. The computer will automatically round that out when you calibrate it by the distance. It will calibrate the time down and round that out to a minute, so you'll still get your drops in a minute. MR. PALMER: All right. What I'm say -- if this -- for the sake of discussion, say for the first two-tenths of a mile or a fraction thereof, 2.15, and for an additional two-tenths of a mile -- for the first two-tenths of a mile, $2.15; for each additional two -tenths of a mile, 35 cents, does that correlate with 40 cents for one minute? MR. WALKER: Yes, it will. MR. PALMER: All right. Then if we just made those changes - MR. MR. MR. MS. MR. changing WALKER: Uh-huh. PALMER: -- everything would be in sync. WALKER: BAISLEY: WALKER: that. MR. FLEGAL: you kept this the same. MR. HYDE: And -- question: That would be perfect. But then the cab operators are going to get -- You may have to -- you may have to look at Well, because you went from one to two and Do they then all have to be Page 109 June 19, 2001 recalibrated again? MR. WALKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Oh, gees. One at a time, please. MR. PALMER: We can make an adjustment on the lower level, come out with the same amount of money. MR. HYDE: Is -- question. MR. FLEGAL: The -- the other way is if you're adding this tenth up, add 3 5 cents to that-- MR. PALMER: Yeah. MR. FLEGAL: -- you know. MR. PALMER: All right. MR. WALKER: There you go. MR. FLEGAL: Change the fifteen to two. What's that come out to? Fifty? Two fifty? And then they got -- they still get the same money. MR. HYDE: Alan, is there a way to do it without having to go by -- if we just change verbiage or whatever, is there a way not to have to go back in and recalibrate all of it? MS. ARNOLD: No. Because you're changing the -- MR. WALKER: No. MR. HYDE: Okay. I just-- MR. WALKER: And the other problem that -- that we're going to have is, with this rate the way it is, the rate cards that are on those cards -- or on the cars don't match. They don't match now. MS. BAISLEY: No. MR. WALKER: But the state -- we chose, in order to get the county going, get these cabs certified to meet your ordinances, to overlook that. And, believe me, this was a six-hour thing with Tallahassee on the phone. We talked to meter manufacturers. It -- Maria was there. We were pulling our hair out trying to make this work. And it got down to the point we got a ruling from Tallahassee Page 110 June 19, 2001 that said, "Run it the way it is. Talk to the board, and see if you can get them to change the rates.". MR. FLEGAL: Right. This -- this change and this change (indicating) is something so that the meters would be, quote, unquote, legal. MR. PALMER: I understand. MR. FLEGAL: You could ask the commissioners to do right now. I mean -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: But then it impacts -- MR. FLEGAL: The money isn't changing; it's just we're going from one-tenth to two-tenths, but we're still staying at 35 cents, so it's MS. ARNOLD: Then we would be asking everybody to recalibrate their meters -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MS. ARNOLD: -- if we did that right now. We may as well -- MR. PALMER: Leave well enough alone for the time being. MS. ARNOLD: If they're certified, they're certified. MR. WALKER: The state's not going to step in -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. WALKER: -- tomorrow and go -- MS. ARNOLD: Exactly. MR. WALKER: --"we changed our minds" -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. WALKER: -- okay? CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think what we need is we need him -- his involvement so -- MS. ARNOLD: When we finally come up with-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Exactly. With the ordinance change in terms of rate. MR. PALMER: Assuming we're going to continue to regulate Page 111 June 19, 2001 rates. MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. MR. PALMER: Then when we come with -- we should run it by you to make sure everything works. MR. WALKER: If the rate changes -- if you guys deregulate the rates and they want to run it, the state has nothing to do with that. But we will step in, and we're going to look at Handbook 44, when -- when -- when you come back with your new rate and it doesn't match this formula, we're going to say, "No. That rate's illegal, and you can't use it. The meter will fail. The cab will have to go get his -- his rate changed.". MR. PALMER: Yeah. It never occurred to anybody to run this by you folks for this kind of analysis. MR. HYDE: Exactly. And that's why-- if we do and we go back to the regular -- what we're talking about here, then it would be really crucial that you're involved in this so that whatever we do that we do it on the front end so that we eliminate any other additional expense to the cab drivers and/or to the companies and, also, the other issue is to make sure that everything is the way it's supposed to be. MR. WALKER: Exactly. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MS. CRUZ: July 9th. CHAIRMAN PEASE: When -- when is the next meeting? July 10th. Are you available for that? MR. WALKER: I don't see a problem with being there or somebody from-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: We certainly would appreciate your involvement. MR. WALKER: Not a problem. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Let's -- let's stop here and-- MR. HYDE: One -- got one last one. Tom, this was brought Page 112 June 19, 2001 back up again, this Hummeride thing. And I don't know if you saw this on the May 15th issue. MR. PALMER: I saw -- I think I saw that letter, yeah. MR. HYDE: Because, I mean, some of the verbiage that this guy uses is -- is a little bit disconcerning (sic). The committee should utilize its time and energy and efforts and resources -- well, I mean, he just -- MR. PALMER: He's saying we're wasting our time; we've got better things to do. MR. HYDE: Right. MR. PALMER: That's his opinion. MR. HYDE: Right. But, I mean, if we've got-- if we've got -- according to Mr. Flegal -- and we saw the pictures of him actually doing the advertisement in the newspaper of his vehicle, then I think that, you know, we -- MR. PALMER: Well, is he continuing to do this, do you know, or has he stopped? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Show him the letter. Look at the letterhead; on the very top right-hand side. MR. PALMER: Yeah. Well, I went back to the minutes, the transcript of the meeting where he was certificated. And it was very clearly expressed that he was not to do this. MR. FLEGAL: Right. MR. PALMER: And there was no distinction between whether or not you're operating as a car -- a vehicle for hire or you're not. You can-- you can't do this with this vehicle. And he said, "I understand.". MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: whether he's still -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. But I don't know -- do we know, in fact, We haven't seen it, but he's claiming that he's Page 113 June 19, 2001 not doing advertisement in violation of the ordinance. MR. PALMER: Well, it must not be doing it all that much, or it would come to somebody's attention that he's doing it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think he doesn't want it to hurt a sale. He's trying to sell that business right now, and I think he just doesn't want it to hurt a sale. MR. PALMER: Did you see the Consumer Report on a Hummer? It is the hardest-riding vehicle known to mankind, apparently, and nobody wants them. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I declare the workshop closed. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 12:07 p.m. PUBLIC VEHICLE ADVISORY COMMITTEE BRYAN PEASE, CHAIRMAN TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN COURT REPORTING, INC., BY BARBARA A. DONOVAN, RMR, CRR Page 114