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PVAC Minutes 05/07/2001 WMay 7, 2001 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE PUBLIC VEHICLE ADVISORY COMMITTEE May 7, 2001 Met on this date at 9:15 a.m. in WORKSHOP SESSION at the Collier County Development Services Building, Conference Room G, North Horseshoe Drive, Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: VICE CHAIRMAN: Bryan L. S. Pease Clifford W. Flegal, Jr. Pat Baisley Eric Hyde Absent: William J. Csogi Tom Lugrin ALSO PRESENT: Michelle Arnold, Code Enforcement Director Maria Cruz, Code Enforcement Specialist Tom Palmer, Assistant County Attorney Ekna Hu, Code Enforcement Jack Bridenthal Page I May 7, 2001 (Proceedings commenced, Mr. Pease not present:) VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: we have a roll call, please. MS. CRUZ: Clifford Flegal. VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: Here. MS. CRUZ: Pat Baisley. MS. BAISLEY: Here. MS. CRUZ: Eric Hyde. MR. HYDE: Here. MS. CRUZ: Let the record show that Bryan Pease is running late. He'll be here. VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: How about the other -- MS. CRUZ: No, sir. VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: I call the workshop to order. Can Did you hear from anybody else? You didn't hear from the other ones? Okay. We have an agenda. Are there any changes or additions to it? We don't have any minutes from any last workshop that I'm aware of, so I think we could delete that item. Any other changes? Motion for the agenda to be approved as changed (sic). MR. HYDE: Motion. MS. BAISLEY: I second that. All those in favor signify by VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: saying aye. (Unanimous response.) VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: so. Any old business? MS. BAISLEY: No. VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: reports. Any new business? I don't think I don't think so. Good. No Down to the main discussion, which is recommendations for Page 2 May 7, 2001 changes to the ordinance. Has everybody had a chance to read the draft that was sent out? MR. HYDE: I went through it once or twice. VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: And also some time ago staff sent us a sheet where they had taken everybody's changes that were submitted and tried to put it into some semblance so that we could at least understand it. I don't know if you've had a chance to compare the two. They run fairly close. What do you say we just go page by page? And let's start with -- use the draft copy that I think Tom's office sent out. MR. PALMER: Uh-huh. VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: Okay. First page, I don't see any items that I think would be discussable. MS. ARNOLD: I would just note the typo in the first whereas clause, update. MR. PALMER: Oh, yeah. Thank you. MS. ARNOLD: Depending on what we do, the title and the second whereas clause would be changed, you know, if we deregulate the rates and -- and those types of things. VICE CHAIRMAN FL. EGAL: Yeah, I think that's -- MR. PALMER: And that always has to be amended as the last thing to coincide with the tax thing. MS. ARNOLD: Right. VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: Page 2. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Do users get a copy of that -- MS. ARNOLD: Here are copies. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Thank you. MS. ARNOLD: My only question about the second definition, which is limousines, whether or not we need to be referencing, you know, the -- the regulation that's -- that indicates, you know, what classifies a vehicle as a lim -- limousine, or we could just leave it that way. I remember -- having some discussion with Page 3 May 7, 2001 some of the limo drivers and -- and we were talking to the airport in Fort Myers, and they were saying that there's specific regulations that -- that they refer to to define what a limousine is as opposed to another type of vehicle. MR. PALMER: Well, you mean like a -- either a -- an administrative regulation like Florida Administrative Code? MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. MR. PALMER: I can see about that. If -- in fact, if it's under inclusive, we could certainly make it inclusive by -- I'll try to find out what those are. I know that in, I think, one ordinance I looked at, it was defined slightly differently. But it didn't occur to me that we were under inclusive here, but I'll look at that for you. MS, ARNOLD: Okay. VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: And handicapped vehicle where we've -- recommending eliminating all this, is there a reason we're doing that? I -- I don't understand why we want to eliminate that. Can somebody explain why we're doing that? MR. PALMER: Well, I -- that was my thought too. I -- I didn't know that this was broken. I didn't know that this text was broken. In other words, I -- when I saw this, it did not occur to me the reason why we are deleting the last three sentences. MS. BAISLEY: Was that someone's recommendation? VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: Well, it's not on the changes that were sent out by staff so -- MS, ARNOLD: I don't know where it came from either. VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: not delete it. MS, BAISLEY: I think it should stay in. MS. ARNOLD: I think so too. MS, CRUZ: Especially nonemergency words. I don't know how it got in. My initial comment would be let's Page 4 May 7, 2001 VICE CHAIRMAN FLEGAL: Yeah. That's what bothered me. MR. PALMER: About three, four years ago we had a problem with somebody that was running this service. We had a big to-do about what this service was. Do you recall that? (Mr. Bryan Pease entered the room.) MS. ARNOLD: So we're recommending -- MR. FLEGAL: We recommend we leave it like it was. MR. PALMER: The reason I did that -- we had -- I did add in the title, though, the words "transportation services" for the transportation disadvantaged because that does -- dovetails it with the Florida Statute. MR. FLEGAL: Right. MR. PALMER: That defines what these things are. MS. BAISLEY: But those vehicles would not necessarily be used just for transportation disadvantaged individuals. MR. PALMER: No. MS. ARNOLD: So does that confuse the definition ? MS. BAISLEY: I think it does. MR. PALMER: I don't know. This is -- this is, actually -- handicapped vehicles, as I understand it, is to essentially transport people who can -- cannot use a conventional car. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. But she's saying that transportation disadvantaged vehicles don't necessarily only transport handicapped individuals. It may be some other disadvantaged, maybe monetary, whatever. I mean, I don't -- MR. PALMER: I don't know that. MS. ARNOLD: Combining those two would confuse it. MS. BAISLEY: Right. MR. PALMER: When I looked -- I didn't do an analysis on it, but when I looked at the statute it was pretty clear to me that these transportation vehicles were limited to people who could not utilize a ordinary car or truck. Page 5 May 7, 2001 MS. ARNOLD: Oh, I agree with you. I think we're agreeing with you that handicapped vehicles are. But the transportation disadvantaged vehicles is not limited to just handicapped individuals. MS. BAISLEY.' That's correct. It also includes the lower- income individuals in transportation. MR. FLEGAL: This -- the -- the words that were added after handicapped vehicle, transportation service for the transportation dis -- was not in the original, and I think that could be confusing because people do hire these vehicles like, maybe, to take them from their home to somewhere else or from the hospital to somewhere else, and, you know, because they can't get in a car and they may need this type of a vehicle. It's not just for the, quote, unquote, disadvantaged. So there could be some confusion there. MR. PALMER: Well, I'll look at that. I'll look at the statute. My understanding was that the statute, the word -- our word -- what we have defined here as handicapped vehicle and their definition of transportation disadvantaged was pretty darned mutually the same. I don't remember one being wide or the other. And I didn't remember that -- because those have all side - - sort of tax breaks and government things, I think they were limited to people who, in fact, can't use an ordinary vehicle, not just for the convenience of some person that can use an ordinary vehicle, but I'll look at that. These are a very special class of vehicle in the eyes of the law, and I don't think they're supposed to be utilized as taxicabs for the ordinary person. I'll -- I'll look at it. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. chairman is here. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. FLEGAL: For the record let's make note that our Is tardy but here, Bryan Pease. Bryan, what we started to do was just go page Page 6 May 7, 200'1 by page and see and discuss, so we're at page 2. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Can I backtrack just to Item 2, limousine, for a second, and tell you that there's a testing of a -- of a -- in New York that's going on right now where the limousine operator owns a 200-inch or longer stretch, and it seats more than 14 people. And what they're doing is they're claiming that this vehicle is a bus and not a stretch limousine because the ordinance there says that -- it stipulates how many seats a limousine has. So they're going for all approval of bus approval and not even falling -- they're saying we don't fall under any jurisdiction of the local because of that. But I notice that on Item 2 it says that it seats no more than 14. I'm wondering, is there a potential, as we're starting to look long term, for someone to use that as a wedge to accomplish -- to go around this body? The words, "14 passengers or less," I guess, is my question. MS. ARNOLD: Well, I brought up earlier, Bryan, that we ought to look to see whether there's some other definition or any regulations that would -- that we can introduce as a regulatory means for defining what a limousine is. And a stretch would probably be one of those things that we would look at, but I don't know whether or not it does say -- does it say how many persons? CHAIRMAN PEASE: This one does. MS. ARNOLD: No, not -- not this, but what they're discussing in New York? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yeah. They're claiming that they have 20 seats. Therefore, they're a bus. And they're using a Excursion, a Ford Excursion, as the test for it. And it's a -- it's a big deal, I guess, between this QVM approved and not approved. And my understanding is we sometimes say that it's illegal to have a car stretched beyond 120 inches. Well, it's not illegal. Page 7 May 7, 2001 It's the -- the manufacturers say that it is not safe to have anything longer than 120 inches. And they won't warranty the car. And there are approved builders of cars that meet those standards. And then there are also companies that build beyond 120 inches and they're street legal but not deemed by the manufacturer to be safe. MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. MR. PALMER: And the question is whether they're warranted by the person that does the work on them. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, I guess my question is, this statement says not more than 14 passengers. Are we -- are we locking ourselves in and opening up the door for someone to come back and say, well -- MS. ARNOLD: Someone coming in and saying, "1 can hold more than 14 passengers; therefore, I'm not a limousine.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. MR. PALMER: Well, that doesn't do the ]ob either. What we're talking about here, limousines -- and there are other ordinances I looked at when I was going over this thing that talk about even like first -- like gold-plated limousines, ordinary limousines. So the question is not only the size of the vehicle; the question is what type of vehicle is it, what kind of clientele does it cater to. For example, if you had a 20-veh -- passenger vehicle, whether it's a bus or not would in part be determined whether it goes over a predetermined scheduled route but whether it does this kind of, like, excursion work which means it gets a bunch of people and they say we want to go here, and we want to go there, there's no predetermined route. The way to handle this is come up with other vehicle and talk about, this will include a bus-type vehicle, if the vehicle does that kind of work and is not regulated by law by any other governmental entity. Page 8 May 7, 2001 That's one way to attack the problem. Some things are automatically preempted by the state regulation. Like, for example, there may be certain bus -- buses that are under the state jurisdiction, at least in part maybe for licensing. What we can do here is to brought -- broaden this definition to include vehicles but not limit them to kind of like first-rate vehicles like limousines. Those are like upscale vehicles. Let's say it's not an upscale vehicle but it does this kind of catering work for a fee, predetermined group, that's not affiliated with anybody in particular. It's just available to the world. We could classify them as a -- as a vehicle that's regulated under this -- under this ordinance. MS. ARNOLD: Well, I think what Bryan is probably bringing up is the number of persons only. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MS. ARNOLD: The rest of the definition is probably okay to define what a limo is, but limiting it to 14 or more -- MR. PALMER: Yeah. MS. ARNOLD: -- we may be excluding some vehicles that are, in fact, limousines. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Correct. And there is a Ford Excursion in town now that's certainly -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. I've seen that. MS. BAISLEY: It's a Navigator, right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- of handling more than 14. MR. PALMER: What -- what would you like to change that --. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm just suggesting maybe not limiting it to 14, just -- just take the -- words of capable of seating not more than 14 passengers, take that little part of the phrase out. MS. BAISLEY: Does that have a permit on it? CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't know. MS. CRUZ: I -- I would have to check. Page 9 May 7, 200t CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm not sure who operates it. MS. BAISLEY: It's Hollywood Limos. MR. PALMER: Well, we could either just take it out, or we could say irrespective of the number of passengers. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think either one is appropriate, whichever you think is better. MR. PALMER: Okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And I agree that you need a better defined description of limousine, because under the current description the 25-passenger mini coach would fit that, once you take the passenger count out. MR. PALMER: Well, what would that -- where would that -- I'm saying what -- where would that fall? Would that be included under a definition? CHAIRMAN PEASE: No. It's actually under DOT stipulations. So when I took out phrase, it opened up -- MS. ARNOLD: Other-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- the need for a better description of a limousine. MR. HYDE: Which goes back to the administrative code. You look at what the state's doing or whatever. MR. PALMER: In order to do that, we can do it more generically and say provided these vehicles are not regulated by some other governmental agency because this other thing, I take it, is regulated by some other governmental agency. That would take it out of our definition. CHAIRMAN PEASE: (Nodded head}. MR. PALMER: But you don't want this limited to number of passengers, but you also don't want it to be implied that we're talking about regulating something that's already being regulated by another governmental agency. MR. PALMER: I'll clean this up to take into account both Page 10 May 7, 2001 elements. MS. ARNOLD: All references to county administrator needs to be changed to county manager because that's -- now it's -- MR. PALMER: Well, only this county manager. The proper term is county administrator by state statute, and Tom Olliff wants to be called the county manager, but this ordinance is going to be in existence beyond Tom Olliff's tenure. Most of the ordinances and state statutes refer to the county administrator, and then they say this is the person that's often called the county manager, but it does not really change anything, and I'd have to go back and amend this thing, and then this has -- every time that means that's got to be changed by the -- by the printer up in Tallahassee. MR. FLEGAL: Let's let Tom worry about his title. Let's do what the state says. MR. PALMER: Most of our ordinances refer to him as county administrator. MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: the fact of the matter is, it's a -- it's a waste -- it's a worthless exercise of futility to do it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is -- short-term basis under subcontracted vehicles, is that a sufficient phrase? MR. PALMER: Well, we -- we describe that in much more detail later. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: This is a big issue in this -- throughout this ordinance. You need to decide as a matter of policy, because if we start subcontracting vehicles -- and we discussed it at the last meeting. If we start allowing people to subcontract I think-- And we're not doing a general re-write of all -- I think most -- Well, a lot of them say county manager. And Page 11 May 7, 2001 vehicles, the next thing you know half the fleet's going to be subcontracted, and it's intended a loose -- a loss of control. It's up to this board what you want to do on that. But I put that in there so that -- I thought we deci -- decided last time that we were not going to allow long-term subcontract. And this was basically for overflow work for temp -- on a temporary condition, and that -- but that's up to the board. MS. CRUZ: Why do we call then the vehicles that are not owned by the operate -- the company owners, the individual drivers, that they own the vehicles? And, in my opinion or my understanding is that we -- that the owner of the company subcontracts these vehicles from the drivers. So I -- I'd like to see a definition of that because what I'm understanding here is the vehicles when a company needs, for example, prom night and they need additional vehicles, and they subcontract vehicles from other companies for that short term. MR. PALMER: The intent of the present ordinance before we're doing any amendments is the only time that a company in Collier County regulated by this ordinance subcontracts a vehicle is a short-term deal for -- for a special event like a prom, and they get a short-term certificate from the county, and all he does is basically hire that vehicle for a -- like a night or three-day golf tournament. It is not a long-term relationship where I'm effectively running vehicles out of my business under subcontracts. And this is a big issue. And right now the ordinance does not allow anything other than this short-term mechanism. MS. BAISLEY.' Then why is -- MR. FLEGAL: The other vehicles to me would be leased vehicles, not subcontracted vehicles. MS. ARNOLD: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we have a definition for leased Page 12 May 7, 2001 vehicles in this? MS. CRUZ: We don't. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, that's what I would call them and any other business would call them. You lease something for X period of time, and that's it. MR. PALMER: Yeah. We can put it in there. I didn't think it needed it. I thought the ordinance pretty clearly describes what a subcontracted vehicle is as distinguished from a leased vehicle. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Pat, do they-- in the taxi operations, do they lease the vehicle, or do they -- or does -- does the owner -- the owner can lease it to the driver or -- MS. BAISLEY: Could-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- the reverse could be true. The gentleman or the woman could bring her vehicle, and then is that a -- that's not a lease? MS. BAISLEY: Yes. They lease their vehicle to, say, my company or Jack's company, whoever's company, for six months, a year, whatever -- MR. BRIDENTHAL: That's done quite often. MS. BAISLEY: -- length of the -- that's done. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MS. BAISLEY: Yes. MR. BRIDENTHAL: CHAIRMAN PEASE: With the driver. Or without. Or without. MS. BAISLEY: Well, in my case it's with the driver but --. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Accent has leased two of his cars to Checker without driver, and they furnish the driver. So it's just the vehicle that's leased in that instance. I think you've got quite a lot of owner/operators. MS. BAISLEY: We have a few owner/operators. But in my case, the vehicles owned by that particular individual and leased Page13 May 7, 2001 to my company with that same person who is the owner of that vehicle driving that vehicle. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We certainly don't want to change that relationship, do we? MR. FLEGAL: I wouldn't. And I don't think you need a lease definition because you find when we do applications, if you'll look at them, you find people leasing vehicles to their company. In other words -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MS. BAISLEY: I have some of my own that were leased. MR. FLEGAL.: I don't think we need that - - that definition. I think subcontract vehicle is very clear. It's this short-term, one night, three nights, something like that for events. And then beyond that there are no subcontracted vehicles. MR. PALMER: Right. But let's get something -- I need something to get clear in my own mind for the purposes of writing this thing. Under what certificate does a person who leases a vehicle and a driver to you, under whose certificate does that vehicle and driver operate? MS. BAISLEY: It would be mine. MR. FLEGAL: Hers. MR. PALMER: They're not independently certified. MS. BAISLEY: No. MS. ARNOLD: No. MR. PALMER: Do you -- is there any way that the county knows that this person has come on board ? MS. BAISLEY: Yes, they do, because they have to have the lease agreement provided to them in order for me to get a permit on that particular vehicle. MR. BRIDENTHAL: And the license registration. MS. BAISLEY: And the registration, yes. MR. PALMER: And you keep our code enforcement people Page 14 May 7, 2001 apprised of these people coming and going. MS. BAISLEY: That's correct. MR. PALMER: Do we have anything in the ordinance specifically on that? MS. CRUZ: No. And the big issue on these lease vehicles is the insurance. MR. PALMER: Uh-huh. MS. CRUZ: And we went through this before where there was a question who was liable -- MR. PALMER: Who had the overall insurance coverage. That's right. MS. CRUZ: And because of this section here that we're taking out, we are able to say now this ordinance requires -- a certificate holder is the responsible party to obtain insurance for these sublease -- for these leased vehicles. MR. PALMER: That's right. MS. CRUZ: And I'm afraid if we take that out, then anyone can walk in here with a certificate of insurance, say I'm working for Yellow Cab, for example, and get a certificate where they wouldn't have to go through the process that everyone else has to go through in order to obtain a certificate. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Maria, excuse me. Don't they also have to change their title and registration to show taxi? MS. CRUZ: No. When a vehicle is leased for -- to another company, then they provide us a contract, slash, lease where they -- the owner of the vehicle is leasing the car to the company. MS. ARNOLD: The classification, yes, would have to indicate. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Whether the title and registration had to be changed to indicate taxi or for hire rather than be private or personal, whatever is on most people's titles. MS. CRUZ: That is correct. Page 15 May 7, 2001 MR. BRIDENTHAL: It does -- MS. CRUZ: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Are you suggesting, Maria, that the information that's struck from subcontracted vehicles remain in the ordinance under leased vehicles? MS. CRUZ: I'd like to see that to remain in the ordinance, whether we want to put it under definition of lease vehicles, if we want to break the definition of subcontracted vehicles but also include there -- really specify what a leased vehicle is. MS. ARNOLD: Well, the -- the question that Maria brought up was that it -- it needs to be stated somewhere in the ordinance that the vehicle being leased is insured by the certificate holder because if we don't have anything in there that states that, what we could have is anybody coming in with their own insurance for that vehicle that they're -- they own and then, therefore, lease to another company. We're -- we're almost creating all these sub companies if we don't require there to be a tie for the insurance responsibility to the certificate holder because we only have responsibility over the certificate holder, not all those other individuals. MR. PALMER: All right. We're mixing apples and oranges a little bit. MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. We are. MR. PALMER: I don't have any problem with what you've just said, and I think it makes sense. The question is about distinguishing between this lease situation -- let me ask you, when you -- I lease a vehicle to a company that's got a particular color scheme, does that vehicle get repainted into the color scheme? MS. BAISLEY: Yes. MR. PALMER: All right. And that's -- but that does not happen on the short-term lease -- I mean, a short-term Page 16 May 7, 2001 subcontract obviously. MS. BAISLEY: No. MR. PALMER: In fact, we ought to say that -- in here -- I would recommend at least we say that any vehicle leased to a company, the certificate holder must carry the colors of the certificate holder. MS. BAISLEY: I don't think you can subcontract a taxicab, can you? That's what the colors are regulated for. MR. PALMER: Well, no. You can subcontract a taxicab on these very short-term like prom night or golf event. MS. BAISLEY: I didn't think you could do a actual taxicab with a meter and top light. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But you should be able to because I've -- I've done it. I've subbed out to your company taxicab -- our client wants a taxicab; we don't operate a taxicab. So you will -- you will hire-- MS. BAISLEY: You subcontracted to a permitted company. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MS. BAISLEY: If you wanted to get a cab from Miami and bring it over here. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I can't. No. MS. BAISLEY: I thought that was not permissible under this ordinance. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. Which this applies to saying -- taking a company that not necessarily is working in Collier County or contracted in Collier County and subcontracting, like, Fort Myers limos for prom night or something like that. MR. PALMER: Right. MS. ARNOLD: And this ordinance prohibits out-of-county taxicab companies from doing business other than drop -off in Collier County. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Totally. You can't even buy a -- a Page 17 May 7, 2001 permitted company can't even buy one of the little cards anymore? MS. ARNOLD: If it's permitted in Collier County, they can. What you did was -- was subcontract or utilize the service of a taxicab company that is permitted in Collier County. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let me throw a different scenario, and this one probably applies to Eric too. A client wants an all- limousine transfers, 200 people. You need 20, 25 stretch limos. You're going to be pulling cars from Fort Myers, Charlotte County, Fort Lauderdale, Miami. Those -- that's all permissible? MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You can get the little tag for that? MS. BAISLEY: But not for a taxicab. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Exactly. Not for a taxicab. MR. PALMER: Well, now, the ordinance -- I don't think the ordinance makes that distinction. MS. ARNOLD: It does say in there that taxicabs that are not permitted in this county cannot pick up in this county in the ordinance. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. But-- MR. PALMER: Well, it doesn't make the distinction that that doesn't apply in the case of a short-term subcontract situation. In fact, it's always my understanding that, in fact, I could bring somebody down here from Lee County. MS. ARNOLD: You can. But you can't pick up. MR. PALMER: Well, you've got to pick somebody up for prom and take them around for prom night, aren't you? MS. BAISLEY: Not in a taxicab. MS. ARNOLD: No. Usually it's not a taxicab because the ordinance also -- MR. PALMER: Well -- well, all right. Well, fine if that's what you want, but the ordinance does not make that distinction. Page 18 May 7, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: I think that's been either implied understanding that -- I think that might have been an implied understanding that you couldn't subcontract the taxicab. MS. ARNOLD: Well, I mean, there's conflicts then. If-- if you have terminology that says you cannot do this, and it doesn't specifically say under the subcontractor definition or section of this code that you can -- MR. PALMER: Well, we can amend it later on. Right now I don't recall that this ordinance made any distinction between subcontracting a limousine and subcontracting an ordinary taxicab, so long as it was for that very short-term duration. In fact, I thought it was common practice to do that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Not on the taxi side. MR. PALMER: No? MR. FLEGAL: I would think if you used the word before, the magic word "permitted." she's permitted already. So if she needed -- for some reason let's say her fleet all developed pneumonia and now she doesn't have any cabs, okay, she doesn't have any Yellow Cabs, but she could go to Fort Myers and say, "Look, I need ten taxis with meters and lights, and I need them today because I have this event, and I need the cabs." she's got the permit; they would be subcontracted under her permit for these one day. MS. ARNOLD: The problem -- the problem with taxicabs, though, is that their -- their meters have to be consistent with the meter -- the rate schedule that we have in our county. And if you go out of county, you're going to have a total different meter structure than you would in Collier County. That's why it has been, I -- I believe not specifically stated in the ordinance that you don't subcontract taxicab. You -- it's -- that's why it's been that way because you have a total different rate structure in Lee County, Miami, you know, wherever else --. Page 19 May 7, 2001 MR. PALMER: That's true. MS. ARNOLD: -- than you do in Collier County. So the only one where you really don't have a dictated schedule is your charter businesses, your charter companies. MR. BRIDENTHAL: It's an unwritten law. But what is in there is that they have to match in color, so that eliminates borrowing. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. There's a lot of things that conflict that would provide for a taxicab to be subcontracted outside of -- MR. BRIDENTHAL: Just about can't be done. MS. ARNOLD: -- the county. Right. Just looking at all of the - - you know, the color scheme restrictions, the rate schedule restrictions. And, you know, some of the other underlying restrictions for taxicabs almost precludes someone outside of Collier County. MR. FLEGAL'- Well, let's ask the magic question: The way it's written and based on the taxi meter, the color scheme, and SO on -- MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. MR. FLEGAL: -- is the county happy the way the ordinance is written that taxicabs cannot be subcontracted, or do you need a clearer definition? MS. ARNOLD: I -- I think it doesn't hurt to have something clearly state if that's the way we want to continue to do business, that that's something that's not included in the subcontractor's provision. MR. PALMER: That's my recommendation -- · MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. MR. PALMER: -- because it -- I don't recall it being in here. And, see, I've -- I've always thought that on these very short-term deals that some -- sometimes taxicabs were subcontracted for a day or prom night. And I thought they didn't go by the meters. Page 20 May 7, 2001 Maybe there was some kind of a special deal that everybody that's going to prom pays the same rate. I thought that you had, like, a prearranged schedule on things like that. MR. BRIDENTHAL: They don't use taxicabs for proms. They use -- everybody's wants a limo. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But I'm sure that there are operators that bring people into Collier County and then arrange the pickup when they're not permitted and they charge a flat fee as is standard practice for airport pickups. Any of these guys that run out of Fort Myers airport, drop off at The Registry and say, okay, do you need a return pickup. MS. BAISLEY: They've done it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Sure. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. But you can't -- you can't write any words that's going to stop that. MR. HYDE: You're trying to deal with the -- the masses -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. HYDE: -- versus the one individual operator that's going to be out there, I mean. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Sanibel had that in their year -- ten years ago in their bylaws, and we came in and legally challenged it then, and they had to change it because they -- they can't tell people you can drop off but not pick up. That's just -- MS. CRUZ: Tom-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Deregulation of transportation was the big issue there. MS. CRUZ: It does says here under definition of subcontractor vehicles or taxicabs, it says taxicabs not operated by-- MR. PALMER: What page are you on? MS. CRUZ: Page 3, in the last sentence there under definition of subcontracted vehicles, taxicabs not operated by Page 21 May 7, 2001 certificate holder are prohibited from being subcontracted. MR. PALMER: Right. Right. Now, what that means is is that I -- that that means that if I have a company in -- or cab in this county and I have -- and I'm a certificate holder, I can sub -- I can subcontract to somebody else that has a certificate. MS. CRUZ: As long as it's not a taxicab. MR. PALMER: It says -- it says, A -- no, taxicabs not operated by a certificate holder. That means that if I am the owner/operator and I have a certificate, I can subcontract my cab to somebody else as long as somebody is a certificate holder. This does not say -- it does not say subcontracted -- it's taxicabs shall not -- are prohibited from being subcontracted. It's a certain class of taxicabs that are prohibited. If we want to say taxicabs shall not be subcontracted, we should say so just like that. Saxi -- taxicabs shall not be subcontracted, period. MS. CRUZ: Uh-huh, we should. MR. PALMER: What this really means here is you can't bring a -- a -- a taxicab from Lee County that's certificated by Lee County. But if the cab in question in any way is certificated by Collier County, it can be subcontracted to another company. MS. CRUZ: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's -- that's what we need in the verbiage. MR. PALMER: Is that what we want or -- because that's what what it is right now. MR. BRIDENTHAL: I have a question. MR. FLEGAL: You shouldn't be allowed to subcontract. MR. BRIDENTHAL: You shouldn't be able to change colors either, but what if a hurricane came through Naples, destroyed every cab, didn't hit Fort Myers and we had a friend that owned Blue Bird and we could borrow three cars from him until we could get cars -- Page 22 May 7, 2001 MS. ARNOLD: Emergency situations -- MR. FLEGAL: Emergencies are different. The county commissioners could issue an emergency order and let -- override anything. MS. ARNOLD: Yup. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Hurricane, everything is under emergency. MS. ARNOLD: Everything is, yeah, totally different. MR. PALMER: Well, are we actua Ily going to make the policy then taxicabs shall not be subcontracted? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, tell me the reasoning behind the striking of the verbiage under subcontracted vehicles. MR. PALMER: Well, because in the -- in the -- in the definition? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Correct. MR. PALMER: Because I -- it's really better, in general ordinance format, to put what are really substantive provisions in the text, which I do later on -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: -- rather than in a definition. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: Basically, these things I took out, I put elsewhere. These are substantive provisions that really are appropriately not in a definition. You're not supposed to put those kinds of things really in definitions. They -- you can, but it's not good form. So if we're going to say taxicabs are prohibited from being subcontracted, we can go back to the subcontract section and put that sentence in there. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: And that will be the end of it. MS. ARNOLD: And we have this other language you're saying about the standards in that they must -- Page 23 May 7, 2001 MR. PALMER: That's all back there, as I -- I meant to put everything in here back in there. In other words, why should a temporary vehicle not have to abide by these other things? MR. BRIDENTHAL: This says eight passengers. Didn't the old ones say four or five? MS. CRUZ: I think -- to answer his question, I think it says five passengers. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So what we're saying is you can have a taxicab van. MR. HYDE: Van. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Mini van but not a full-sized taxi van. MS. BAISLEY: Right. MS. ARNOLD: Now, where did you put that language, Tom? Are you saying you put it under sub certificates? MR. PALMER: Yeah, I think it's back there. It's in the ordinance someplace. I may have -- I have put it -- we'll go through. I may have put it to say vehicles including subcontracted vehicles, words like that, to show that they -- they're not exempt from these general safety provisions and inspection provisions and so forth. We'll go through it. But I meant to make it clear throughout the ordinance. I think in some places I said veh -- vehicles, comma, including subcontracted vehicles, that kind of thing. But if I didn't, I -- I will. MS. CRUZ: Page 22, Item E identifies subcontracted vehicles. MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: Yeah. There it is. It's E. So we need to add that back in here. What language is that? That you deleted out of the definition. Well, I think the first sentence is -- is in E. And the -- elsewhere we talk about this temporary short-term duration. That takes -- that takes care of the next sentence. Page 24 May 7, 2001 That is this short-term business. And the -- the licenses tags, that's just a general rule that we apply elsewhere to everything. And the sentence, "Taxicabs shall not be subcontracted" needs to go in the appropriate place. MR. FLEGAL: And I -- I wouldn't think that's it because that whole section is about certificates, fees, permits, and conditions. It's really not about what a vehicle is. MR. PALMER: Well, we'll put it in here wherever it belongs -- wherever the appropriate place is. MR. FLEGAL: I think you need to put that somewhere in Section 34, which is -- starts on page 10. MR. PALMER: Well, we can do that, sure. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, because that's -- that's titled "Designation of Vehicles for Hire," so that's a neat place to say what a subcontracted vehicle is. MR. PALMER: Okay. MR. FLEGAL: And also the same thing about where you couldn't subcontract out cabs so -- that's probably the best place to fit it in, whether -- MR. PALMER: Where? In 34? MR. FLEGAL: Somewhere in 34, yeah. MR. PALMER: Okay. 0MS. ARNOLD: Are we on page 4 now? MR. FLEGAL: I hope. MS. CRUZ: Before we leave the definition section, there was a couple of suggestions from us to include under definitions, like color scheme. The commercial driver's license, my question is -- it's raised a couple times, and I -- I don't know the exact definition of what a commercial driver's license is. MR. PALMER: I looked for that, and I couldn't find anything satisfactory in the statutes. What this ordinance says someplace else is that the driver of the vehicle must have a license that Page 25 May 7, 2001 covers all activities being performed by that driver. That seems to me to cover it. If I don't have a driver's license, an operator's permit, that allows me to carry people for hire, then I don't have the proper operator's permit. And whatever I do, I've got to have whatever the state law requires to do those things. It seems to me that's satisfactory. It covers the waterfront without getting into narrow definitions about what a commercial license is. I went through Chapter 316 and all these statutes. I can't find anything satisfactory. It's -- it reads as bad as an Internal Revenue code. MR. FLEGAL: Well, but, I mean, the state issues a commercial driver's license, so what is their definition of it? MR. PALMER: Well, they -- they have all kinds, and they have Class A, B, C, D, E, and they have all these things. They have them all lined up, and then they back into them like a tax statute. MR. FLEGAL: Oh. Huh. MR. PALMER: You can't go to say what -- what does Class D provide? It doesn't have it there in black and white. It's all kind of convoluted. I took about four hours trying to figure the damned thing out. I said the hell with it. I seen -- we have a thing that says you -- if you're operating that vehicle, you must have an operator's permit that allows you to do everything you're doing. And it seems to me it's up to the operator to know what -- what his permit allows him to do. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I guess my question would be in transporting people, does the state require you to have something other than just a plain old driver's license ? MR. PALMER: Yeah, they do, sure. MR. FLEGAL: It must have a name. CHAIRMAN PEASE: CDI. for the larger. MS. BAISLEY: It's a Class D chauffeur's license for a -- MR. PALMER: The trouble is they have all kinds of classes Page 26 May 7, 2001 and sub classes. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I guess what I'm looking for is if you don't -- if you just say you have to have the proper license, I'm -- I'm trying to think ahead. We have a new -- let's say, a new operator who's applying, and she doesn't know chili pepper about this and she says, "Oh, yeah, he's got the proper license," she doesn't know. And since all we said is make sure you have the proper one, we haven't even headed her in the right direction. We're now leaving it up to her to try and find out what's proper, and the guy she hires might say, "Oh, yeah. Don't worry, Lady. I've got the proper license.". MR. PALMER: No. It's up to her -- MR. FLEGAL: And now she's going to be in big trouble if she doesn't. MR. PALMER: No. It's up to her to verify whatever the license is. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Tom, let me tell you about a recent experience. For a long time our insurance company required a D. They dropped that. The city police cited one of the drivers for not having the proper -- which I always thought you needed a chauffeur's license which is D or better, wrote her a ticket for having an E, went to the manager or chief of driver's license bureau. He wrote her a letter and says the state law does not require anything special. An E license is fine. She took it to court; the judge said dismissed, so I don't know. MR. PALMER: Well, I don't -- well, I don't ever -- and I -- I tried to make some sense out of the statute, and it talks about -- for the purposes of minimum insurance it talks about all these classes. And I could not find out another section saying Class D allows the following activities, Class B allows the following activities. It's -- you've got a -- it's a dog chasing its tail. MR. BRIDENTHAL: We haven't been able to figure it out Page 27 May 7, 2001 either. MR. PALMER: Yeah. Always before, even if you drove a pickup for a parts company, you had to have a chauffeur's license, anything that was for money. But when I come down here, the insurance company was the only requirement for a D license. They dropped it. The state man at DMV says you don't need anything. MS. ARNOLD: What kind of problems have we had ? MR. BRIDENTHAL: Just driver's license. MS. ARNOLD: In terms of getting information. MS. CRUZ: Well, the question that -- no, but the question is constantly raised, you know, such and such has a commercial driver's license. The ordinance requires that they have commercial driver's license. Well, I don't know the classification or -- the definition of a commercial license. MR. PALMER: Yeah. Commercial driver's license includes a lot of things. MS. CRUZ: But I -- for my purposes, we need a definite definition of that type of license. If they're going to need just a regular license, then -- MR. PALMER: Let's contact the Department of Transportation and find out what the deal is then. I don't know what it is, and I can't make it out of statutes. MS. CRUZ: I think we need to clear that up because, you know, the question is raised constantly. MR. PALMER: I don't have any problem clearing it up. MS. CRUZ: We don't have an answer for the people. MR. PALMER: And I can understand why looking at that statute. And now I'm beginning to wonder whether the DOT knows what's going on. CHAIRMAN PEASE: The -- the DOT requires a CDL license. MR. BRIDENTHAL: DMV. Page 28 May 7, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yeah. MR. PALMER: Department of Motor Vehicles. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Right. Write down the name Bill Griffis, f- f-i-s. And he's the head or assistant head out here. MR. PALMER: Do you know where he's stationed ? MR. BRIDENTHAL: Yeah, the East Trail, the regular driver's license bureau. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But the DOT requires CDL. MR. PALMER: CDL? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MR. PALMER: What is that? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Commercial driver's license. MR. PALMER: Commercial driver's license. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Now, as a company policy, we -- we require all of our drivers, even those that drive in a sedan, to be CDL licensed. MR. BRIDENTHAL: That's a D, right? CHAIRMAN PEASE: MS. BAISLEY: No. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Because it's a higher standard. It's not a D, no. It's a -- and you also have to have a P edorsement; I know that part. MR. PALMER: Yeah. They have all that language in there. They've got all of these damned endorsements. MR. BRIDENTHAL'- P for passenger? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. They -- that they have to have. MS. CRUZ: Doesn't that have to do with the tonnage of the vehicle ? CHAIRMAN PEASE: vehicle. It does have to do with the size of the MS. ARNOLD: Well, maybe -- maybe because there isn't any clear definition for what a commercial driver's license is is we need to establish what it is that we want the drivers of either Page 29 May 7, 2001 taxi, charter, whatever vehicles that we're doing for hire to have. And if it's -- if everybody is requiring this CDL with a P endorsement or whatever that is, maybe that's what we should be putting in our definition. Then that way we'll have something to tell these people that are asking us, that are submitting their application to us, what they need to have. MS. BAISLEY: You are going to have no drivers in this county -- MS. ARNOLD: No. MS. BAISLEY: -- because to get a CDL, they have to go through training. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Go to Charlotte County for a test. MS. ARNOLD: But I'm just saying we need to define what it is that we're going to require of taxicabs or limo drivers or whatever so that when someone comes in with an application, we can say, no, this license is not going to be sufficient. MR. PALMER: And with one -- one caveat. This may be preempted by state law where the state says if you get a certain driver's license, that's it. And a county cannot superimpose its own local requirement. I'll find out. MS. ARNOLD: Okay. MR. PALMER: But I'll tell you, this is the most convoluted thing. And maybe we can get some kind of a brochure. Does DOT have a brochure or some kind of an informational package or something? MR. BRIDENTHAL: I'm sure it's in their handbook. MS. BAISLEY: My insurance company requires my drivers to have at least a Class D driver's license, which is a chauffeur's license. MR. PALMER: MS. BAISLEY: MR. PALMER: Uh-huh. They can't have a regular operator's license. That's an insurance company. Page 30 May 7, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: MR. PALMER: what you said -- Yes, Yeah. And I'd be surprised, notwithstanding MS. BAISLEY: I'm surprised. MR. PALMER: -- that I can -- that I can operate for hire with a Class E permit. That doesn't strike me as -- as -- MR. BRIDENTHAL: We have seen the insurance company, and he's approved all our drivers. MS. BAISLEY: Professional insurance? MR. BRIDENTHAL: Yeah. Insurance Company of New York. MS. BAISLEY: Yeah? Oh. MR. FLEGAL: I -- I guess I have a question. Isn't -- isn't the ordinance currently written that the drivers have to have a commercial license? MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. MR. FLEGAL: Well, Pat just said none of her drivers could get a license. So how are they driving? MS. BAISLEY: big -- MR. FLEGAL'- driving? MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: MS. BAISLEY: license. MR. PALMER: Well, I mean they could get a license. It's a Well, if they don't have it now, how are they They have a chauffeur's license. That's not a commercial license. Well, it may -- it may be. It might be a class of the commercial driver's The thing about it is the board -- commercial driver's license, the statute covers a whole myriad of thing. There are all kinds of endorsements, this endorsement, that endorsement. MR. FLEGAL.' Well, then we need to clarify this really badly. Page 31 May 7, 2001 MS. ARNOLD: That's what Maria's point is. MR. BRIDENTHAL: A "D," I think, is the one that the insurance companies used to require. MS. ARNOLD: Uh -huh. MR. PALMER: Used to require. MR. BRIDENTHAL: And our former insurance company dropped it. But now we're with the same insurance company she is, and they've never mentioned it, I guess. MS. BAISLEY: I find that interesting because if I don't catch it and I pass one through, they deny them. That's wrong class of driver's license, and it's the same insurance company. MR. PALMER: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. MR. BRIDENTHAL: The same agent, same person. MR. PALMER: Well, can you give me a -- call me and give me a name of somebody that I can contact or somebody I can contact to get to the bottom of this, because it's a can of worms? MR. BRIDENTHAL: Well, who would know more than driver's license examining station? MR. PALMER: Well, you would hope. You would hope. MR. BRIDENTHAL: That's where this guy is. He's either the manager or assistant manager. MR. PALMER: You know the stories. You call the Internal Revenue Service ten times and you get ten different answers. MS. BAISLEY: You accuse the county of that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't know if I have a -- I don't know if I have a different answer, but D or E is what our dispatch office said. MR. PALMER: permit. MS. BAISLEY: CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. BRIDENTHAL: D or E. Well, E is just an ordinary operator's D is the regular. Everyone has a E. DorE. That's all our people have. Page 32 May 7, 2001 MS. ARNOLD: Well, it looks like we need to look into this a little bit further so --. MR. BRIDENTHAL: This thing, Tom, with a P is probably the most important thing -- MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. MR. BRIDENTHAL: -- have a passenger-- MS. BAISLEY: A Class D driver's license does not have a P endorsement on it. MR. BRIDENTHAL: No. I know. MS. BAISLEY: Only those CDLs, C, D and A. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Oh, is that right? MS. BAISLEY: Yeah. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Like for a Greyhound Bus driver. MR. PALMER: Have you ever tried to go through that statute and figure out what in the world is going on with all those endorsements? MS. BAISLEY: Huh-uh. MR. PALMER: And then another thing, they talk about this weights and measure business, and this ordinance refers to that. You go back to weights and measures, it doesn't say anything about taxicab meters. MS. BAISLEY: That's right. I'll agree with you on that one. MR. BRIDENTHAL: And he's coming out to check us all out in a couple weeks. MS. BAISLEY: MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. It does say something about taxicab meters in the weights and measures. You mean, Chapter thirty -- what is it? MR. PALMER: Whatever it is. I don't see anything. MR. BRIDENTHAL: That's the same guy that checks for gallonage at gas stations. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. Uh-huh, yeah. Page 33 May 7, 200t MR. PALMER: They talk about generic weights and measures, and I don't remember any language in there about taxicab meters or anything else. MS. ARNOLD: I thought there was because he pointed it out to us when they were visiting at our last meeting. Do you remember the two gentlemen that were there, and he pointed out section of the statute that indicated the regulation for taxicab meters? MR. PALMER: Well, he -- it sounds to me he's talking about a Florida Administrative Code provision, because there was certainly nothing in that statute that gives any hint about who it is that tests taxicab meters. It doesn't even say they're -- they're tested by DOT or Department of Motor Vehicles or whatever. What I'd like to do, if this man has a reference to a Florida Administrative Code chapter, I'd like to get it. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Do you have his name handy? MR. PALMER: No. But the man -- the two men -- MS. ARNOLD: Allen -- Allen Walker is the -- and Chapter 531 was the -- the weights and measures section. MR. PALMER: Yeah, yeah. And it was -- I thought it was worthless for our purposes. MR. BRIDENTHAL: That was seven years ago. Was that the same comp -- people that used to test them years ago? MS. BAISLEY: Yeah, that's the same department, weights and measures. MR. PALMER: They-- I'll bet it's an administrative regulation that they operate under. And if I could get a copy of it -- in fact, if I can get the number, I can pull it up off the internet. MR. FLEGAL: Is there a -- can we make the assumption that all, quote, vehicles for hire would be -- since they're regulated, are commercial vehicles, since they're toting people --. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Yeah. Page 34 May 7, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: -- for money? MR. BRIDENTHAL: Yeah. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. So they need a -- I would think under Florida Statutes a commercial-type license, whatever that is. And that's what we need to find; correct? MR. BRIDENTHAL: That's what Tom's trying to find out, and nobody -- MR. FLEGAL: I just want to make sure the definition, they are commercial vehicles. Now let's find out what is the, quote, unquote, license range, if there is more than one. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Well, it can't be an E or B. A is a tractor- trailer with air brakes -- B is air brakes. I don't know what a C is. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, if you have A or B, you can certainly drive a taxi. MR. FLEGAL: Well, yeah. MS. BAISLEY: That's right. MR. BRIDENTHAL: It covers anything down. MR. FLEGAL: Where some of these folks have other than, quote, cars and they have larger vans or whatever you're driving, not knowing how they're equipped, they may require a different license. MR. BRIDENTHAL: E is a regular driver's license, and that's what we've been under the understanding for the last five years was all you needed. And he said that his dispatch said D or E. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Which would -- which would coincide with what your understanding -- is that your understanding too? MS. BAISLEY: No. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Your understanding is D? MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. But I think that other people's understanding is different because I've had a lot of people come from other cab companies wanting to work for me, and they have a Class E. And I said, "How did you work for them before?" and Page 35 May 7, 2001 they said, "Oh, it was no problem. They just let me work." and I always thought it was a D. MR. PALMER: All right. This is some kind of a code. I don't even think it's Florida Administrative Code. This isn't even referenced in the Chapter 531. Could I get a copy of that? I'll -- that's the first time I've seen that. I could not find that on the internet, so I don't know what code that is or who drafted that code or where it came from, but it obvious -- it appears to be applicable. It doesn't even have the kind of a chapter designation that the Florida Administrative Code uses. MS. BAISLEY: Maybe that's why we can't find it. MR. PALMER: But somebody -- I or somebody else could call and get to the bottom of this and find out what is -- what -- what is the standard. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What's the question on the -- that you're hearing? You said one was the driver's license. The other was the paint scheme? MS. CRUZ: The color scheme. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You wanted a definition of a color scheme. What questions are you getting on that? MS. CRUZ: Well, different interpretations. One person thinks that a color scheme is just the -- the lettering and not the color. We need a specific definition to state -- that includes everything, not only the color of the vehicle, the lettering, the color of the lettering, and insignia, anything that is attached or painted on these vehicles because someone thought that if they'd just take the letters out, then they'd be all right. Let's say if there's a taxicab at the present time and the colors are black and white, colors -- the vehicle is black and the letters are white, if they take the letters out, then they can continue operating with the black vehicles being a taxicab. So we wanted a thorough definition. Page 36 May 7, 2001 MR. BRIDENTHAL: Or you mean as charter. operate as charter if they took the letters off. MS. CRUZ: Right. MS. ARNOLD: Right. Well, I think that there Then they could -- there's some language in the code that -- or in the ordinance that says that what your color scheme has to be or not what it has to be, but you can't have two similar taxicabs with similar color schemes so that there's no confusion, but there's also language in there that says that a charter company should not have a sill -- similar color. And so when there was discussion about cab companies then turning over and removing their meters and becoming charters, the question came up as to whether that's all they would have to do, just pull their meters out, and do they have to really change the color of -- of their taxicabs because it would be similar to -- MR. BRIDENTHAL: Their permitted car. MS. ARNOLD: Right. Their permitted car. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Just a little bit. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I raise that -- I raised that issue a couple years ago to no appeal (sic). But that's -- we can talk about that when get down into the text of it. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. So there needs to be some clarification as to what color scheme really means. Does it just only refer to the color? Does it refer to the color and, you know, maybe the pattern that's on the taxicab -- MR. FLEGAL: I thought that was already in there. MS. ARNOLD: Well, it -- it is. It's not in the definition section. MR. FLEGAL: No, but in -- when you apply for the permit, I think it says you have to give the color and the insignia and the word -- I mean, what you -- MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. Page 37 May 7, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: -- what you want. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. FLEGAL: Now, if somebody doesn't understand that, they shouldn't be getting a permit. MS. ARNOLD: No. But -- but what was happening was -- it is clear in the ordinance, but when -- when we have a situation where someone takes their meter out of a permitted taxicab, are they then required to change their -- anything else on the vehicle other than pulling the meter out to make it operate as a charter vehicle? MR. FLEGAL: I would say no. When the sheriff's office sells vehicles, all he does is take the insignia off, and sometimes he doesn't even take the green stripe off and he sells it. And you see him driving up and down the street. Who cares? MR. BRIDENTHAL: If you take the red letters off City Cab, it's a white car and can be anybody's car. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, on cabs, if you take, you know, Yellow Cab off the side, you're just driving down the street in a big yellow car. Who cares? I mean, they paint cars yellow so -- I mean, Ford does it all the time, and so does Ferrari. MS. CRUZ: Could they still operate as a charter vehicle with those color schemes? MR. FLEGAL: Well, they have to get a permit to operate as a charter. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, this is what I raised, and it does dovetail with what you're saying. The question -- what frustrated me was that we require taxicabs to have certain colors and -- and the ordinance said that charter companies couldn't have a color that was -- or a color scheme that was similar to the taxicabs that was the same color. Well, my point was I have black cars. Somebody who has the rights to black on a taxicab is now going to tell me that I can't operate black Lincoln Town Page 38 May 7, 2001 Cars as a charter. You have black. I shouldn't have the exclusive on black as a charter and prevent her from running black cars or you from running black cars. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. What the ordinance says is charter service vehicles shall not be painted in any color scheme of any permitted taxicab. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MS. ARNOLD: And so it's more than just the color because I think -- you've got a lot of black limousines. You've got a lot of white limousines. You have a lot of white taxicabs, you know, and it's not only the color that makes it a taxicab; it's the lettering; it's the -- whatever decorative things that are on there. And so the question is, once that taxicab is no longer a taxicab and it becomes a charter, do they have to paint over the lettering and the -- all the other thing s -- MR. FLEGAL: Yes. MS. ARNOLD: -- that made it distinct? MR. HYDE: Yes. MR. FLEGAL: Yes, they do. MS. ARNOLD: They can't just rip out the meter; they would have to do some painting. MR. BRIDENTHAL: A black car with yellow letters becomes a black car when you take the yellow letters off. MR. HYDE: But you have to remove the letters. MS. BAISLEY: It has to then follow the charter service. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. But which is no letter. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Like our cars. They're red, blue, and white. If we painted the whole sides red and was just red and white, it's no longer in the same scheme. MR. FLEGAL.' Yeah. I mean, if we limited the colors on charter services, I mean, like you say, black and white limousines, I mean, you put everybody out of business. Page 39 May 7, 200t CHAIRMAN PEASE: There's only four colors. MS. ARNOLD: Right. So I think that was the point of clarification, that the scheme, the color scheme, is more than just the color. MR. PALMER: The background color of the taxicab. MS. ARNOLD: It involves everything else. MR. FLEGAL: If they want to go charter, they remove their light, their meter, and all their fancy decals and their words and their phone numbers and anything else, and they end up with either a black or white car, and who cares ? CHAIRMAN PEASE: So we're okay without a description of -- in the ordinance of colors. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, I think that's what we already say. MS. ARNOLD: We say that. It's being strucken (sic) through right now. MR. BRIDENTHAL: It's back farther. MS. ARNOLD: It's on page 11. MR. FLEGAL: We haven't gotten there. But we'll try to keep that. Okay. Are we going to page 4? I guess my question on page 4 is why do we not want a definition of what a permit is? MR. PALMER: Well, I think what we're -- I think what we're describing there is a decal and not a permit. MR. FLEGAL: Oh, okay. MS. ARNOLD: That was Bryan's recommendation. Bryan wanted to strike that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: No. I think he changed it to -- I think he changed it from the definition. sticker; right? MR. PALMER: It's a decal. the text as a decal. CHAIRMAN PEASE: May. It's not really a permit. It's a That's referred to elsewhere in I wanted that, but it got x-nayed last Page 40 May 7, 200t MR. FLEGAL: it is? MS. ARNOLD: decal? But, I mean, we don't need a definition of what Yeah. I mean, where is the definition of MR. FLEGAL: I mean, where -- instead of vehicle permit, if you want to call it a vehicle decal, that's cool, but why are we getting rid of the -- rid of the definition? I guess that's my question. MR. PALMER: Well, first of all, these -- these requirements about the left bottom corner, all that, that's elsewhere in the ordinance, so it's redundant here. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MR. PALMER: What we could do, if you wanted to, is change this word to "vehicle decal" and make it like a one-sentence definition and -- and make it proper. The thing that -- the suggestion was is that this definition does not define a permit; it defines something other than a permit. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Bottom of 21, top of 22 -- MR. FLEGAL: I mean, I guess my recommendation would be change vehicle permit to vehicle decal and leave that first sentence and then strike everything else. MR. PALMER: Yeah. And, in fact, everything else, as he said, has been reinserted someplace else, because these are -- these sentences that follow the first sentence, they're substantive provisions. MR. FLEGAL: I don't -- I don't have a problem with that part, but let's keep the first sentence -- MR. BRIDENTHAL: No. MR. FLEGAL: -- and just change it to decal. MR. BRIDENTHAL: That's in -- page 21, bottom. MS. ARNOLD: But it's not defined. That's -- it's -- it's just indicating where the decal needs to be placed, and that's an Page 41 May 7, 2001 annual-type thing, but what --. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Color coded? CHAIRMAN PEASE: But in the definition section this is text which should be in the body and not in the definition per se. MS. ARNOLD: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's there. It's just -- it shouldn't be here. MS. ARNOLD: So we're -- are we going to insert vehicle decal and define it as -- MR. FLEGAL: Just that first sentence that ends with affixed. MS. ARNOLD: Right. A color-coded vehicle. MR. PALMER: Well, I won't call it a permit either. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MR. PALMER: I'll -- I'll -- I'll clean it up and make it clear. It's the thing that we affix -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: -- in two places, and it's not removable. And then we'll fill in this later on, and which we do. MS. ARNOLD: Very good. MR. FLEGAL: The addition under applicability. Is that something that you put in, Tom? Is that -- that we need or -- I just had a question mark because I didn't understand why we put it in. MR. PALMER: I put this in here because I foresee a possible -- somebody arguing that it does just -- what they were saying here it doesn't do. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MR. PALMER: And whether you can operate on an airport is up to the airport, and I don't want any argument that this is sort of -- sort of preempted into the bailiwick of airport managers. That -- you know, there have been a lot of lawsuits in Florida about this. I thought a good time to be specific. MR. FLEGAL'- Not -- not a problem. Page 42 May 7, 2001 MS. ARNOLD: On page 5-D, the word "buses" is misspelled. And then I just was wondering why some of the additions were being made. MR. PALMER: You're asking me? MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. MR. PALMER: I either got this out of other ordinances I -- I was reviewing or statutes. For example, G -- MS. ARNOLD: Is the same as A, isn't it? MR. FLEGAL: Well, if you remember, if we go back to our definitions on page 2 about handicapped vehicle where we got into a little trouble, we don't want to mix these up again, do we, which I think this kind of does ? MR. PALMER: What's that? MR. FLEGAL: Remember where we got into page 2 about handicapped and we wanted to keep all that in that we deleted? Doesn't Item G and H kind of tie into our -- back to our definitions, and now we're saying those types of vehicles are exempt? And we really don't want them exempt. MR. PALMER: Well, actually, let's look at F. We do want F exempt, don't we? MR. FLEGAL: Ambulances I don't have a problem with. MR. PALMER: Okay. MR. FLEGAL: It's G and F -- or G and H where I have a problem because that's -- ties back into our definition where we added transportation services for the transportation disadvantaged under Item 4 on page 2. MR. PALMER: Well, my understanding is that as a matter of law, G is not the prerogative of this board. MS. ARNOLD: Right. And it's already exempted under A. So we're repeating ourselves by putting it under G. It's the same statute, citation, you know. It's just a little bit more wordy in -- in paragraph A than it is in paragraph G. Page 43 May 7, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: We're saying that the person who is the transportation coordinator is exempt from this ordinance, the person who --. MR. PALMER: Well, they're not -- we -- we can -- we can expand A, but they're not quite the same thing, because G talks about transportation services pursuant to a contract with the transportation coordinator, and that would be like a subcontracted entity. MS. BAISLEY: So those vehicles would be exempt. MR. PALMER: Yeah. And the fact of the matter is that A doesn't exactly say that. It talks about services provided by this entity. By the way, it's kind of a strange definition because transportation -- community transportation coordinator is not a person at all. It's a -- it's like an agency. It's sort of a misleading title. MS. ARNOLD: Like the county. MR. PALMER: And when I said pursuant to a contract with, this was to expand the definition in A. But we could go ahead and change A and say including services provided under contract with. But I put that in there because that is not exactly the same thing. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think your suggestion is -- is the best, what you just suggested, putting that under -- MR. PALMER: A, all right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Under F, my question is, we do take care of nonemergency -- they call those ambulances; right? MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So aren't nonemergency ambulances -- isn't there some sort of government entity that licenses them besides us, or are we the -- I mean, to make sure they have the right medical equipment? We're in charge of that too? MS. ARNOLD: No. Page 44 May 7, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: We don't do that? They don't have to have a permit from anybody else other than us. MR. PALMER: We're asking who licenses ambulances. CHAIRMAN PEASE: The nonemergency ambulances which are private companies, are they required to get any other permit from anybody else in the county other than us, or do they just put whatever equipment they want? If they want a fibulator (sic), they put a fibulator on. But they don't have to have oxygen; they don't have to have a lift; they don't have to have anything. MS. ARNOLD: I think they're regulated by someone else. MS. HU: I believe they're regulated by the whole department. CHAIRMAN PALMER: So what this -- this -- MR. BRIDENTHAL: The state regulates the regular ambulances. I thought they called these nonemergency transport and weren't allowed to put the name ambulance on them. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I've seen ambulance on -- written on -- lettered on the side. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Have you? CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think on our street. Isn't the one that's on Arnold, doesn't that say non? MS. BAISLEY: I don't know. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But I guess my question is, does this in any way give a nonemergency transportation provider of medical services an out? MR. BRIDENTHAL: Free ride, you mean -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Not being regulated by this body? MS. ARNOLD: They're not being regulated by us now, are they? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Uh-huh. MS. CRUZ: The nonemergency services are regulated by us. Page 45 May 7, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MS. CRUZ: They're nonambulances. MR. HYDE: So the word "ambulances" shouldn't be there. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. Well, I understand F. That's specific. That's like Collier County emergency ambulances. MR. HYDE: Right, EMS. MR. FLEGAL: You know, they're exempt. But we have nothing to do with those. That's a, quote, true ambulance. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So -- so any of these other companies would not consider themselves a nonemergency ambulance. MR. FLEGAL.' There aren't any that I know of other than the EMS ambulances. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Well, they're called nonemergency transport. But this specifies operated by government. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, it says licensed by. It doesn't say operated by. MS. CRUZ: And also under the definitions the word "ambulance" should not be on the nonemergency vehicles. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Is that in our ordinance? MS. CRUZ: I don't know. MR. FLEGAL: It was, yeah. MS. CRUZ: Yeah, it was there. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All right. So we're good there. MS. CRUZ: Under the definition it was. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MS. CRUZ: It was crossed off, but we're going to leave it. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. That's one we said to put back in. MS. ARNOLD: It also says it under H. The word "ambulance" shall not be displayed nor advertised on -- and no representation may be made that medical services is available. It says that in the last or the second-to-the-last sentence. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Why -- why is that marked on H, though? Page 46 May 7, 2001 MS. ARNOLD: Well, this is something Tom -- MR. PALMER: I got this to see -- either this is the state statute or I -- or I got it out of the city of Orlando's code or something. I thought it -- I thought it made sense. It's to make sure that these particular vehicles are not thought by the public to provide medical services. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm just not sure it applies under the transportation disadvantaged. It may be on -- need to be on its own or under -- or under the Section F, the part about the ambulance, or maybe somewhere else. I don't know. MR. PALMER: Well, the thing about it, the last two sentences down here in H would make sense if they were -- if they -- if they -- they wouldn't make sense if they were in F because an ambulance will have the word "ambulance" on the side. CHAIRMAN PEASE: True. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. One of the things I think we need to remember is what we're dealing with is in a section that's talking about exemptions. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, that's true. MR. FLEGAL: Here again under H, we've given way more information than needs to be given for an exemption. You probably should only have maybe the -- well, the first sentence goes all the way down to the word "carry," which is one, two, three, four, five -- it's the sixth line down. After that, that's all really unnecessary. In fact, there may -- I don't know, Tom. You're the attorney. I think we just got too much information for something that's exempt. MR. PALMER: Well, I understand. I understand. MR. FLEGAL: We expanded rather than saying -- MR. PALMER: I know. I know. My thought about that, my problem -- my thinking is if we get this back on page 22, it's going Page 47 May 7, 2001 to get buried, and nobody's ever going to find it again. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But he's right. It shouldn't be under exemptions. The word -- the ambulance description doesn't apply to that section. MR. PALMER: Well, I think I took this out of city of Orlando's code or the statute, and it just struck me as it made sense right here and -- MR. FLEGAL: I mean, this is -- I think some of these words are the same words we put back in on page 2 under definition of handicapped. MR. PALMER: No, I don't think they are quite. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MR. PALMER: But if we want to put it somewhere else, we can do that. We could say that -- I -- I believe that -- this may be state statute. I -- I know that this is not my language. I -- I lifted this. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MR. PALMER: And I thought this makes sense. If we put this somewhere else, we're going to say that transportation vehicles -- the transportation disadvantaged must have these; we could do it someplace else. MR. FLEGAL: Let me tell you what I'm worried about, and the first part of the sentence is okay, where it says, "Vehicles limited to providing transportation services for the transportation disadvantaged.". MR. PALMER: Right. MR. FLEGAL: And I have a problem, kind of, with that. But then you say, "or by a transportation operator as defined." and I don't know what that section says. Does that give any of these fellas in the county and/or ladies that want to go into the nonemergency business an exemption that they can just stick the words nonemergency vehicle or something on them now and Page 48 May 7, 2001 start toting people around without coming to get a permit? MR. PALMER: Well, I'll -- I'll look at it, but my recollection is MR. FLEGAL: That's what I'm worried about. MR. PALMER: -- if this transportation operator is somebody who's affiliated with this transportation coordinator --. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MR. PALMER: -- and I think operates like in -- in conjunction with. I think it's part of the thing. I'll look at that, but my recollection is is this transportation operator is somebody that works under the auspices of this agency. And it's not a free- lancer. MR. HYDE: It's contractor. MR. PALMER: Or--well, it's like --yeah. It's like -- MR. HYDE: It's contracted. It's part of the contract. MR. PALMER: You're part -- yeah, exactly. And it -- you -- you are basically performing my services. But I'll -- I'll double- check that. MR. FLEGAL'. I just do not want anybody to be able to slip through and start running up and down the highway and toting people around without any kind a permit and --. MR. PALMER: All right. Let me take a look at that. MR. FLEGAL: The people they're transporting have no protection whatsoever because Clyde decided he'd buy him a van and start and toting some handicapped people or something and charging them money, and all of a sudden a wreck and they get killed, there's nobody to sue. MS. BAISLEY: The question that I had about the transportation disadvantaged is currently the county has a contract with Intelatran (phonetic) for that service for the transportation disadvantaged. They, in turn, subcontract to Checker Cab who provides the actual transportation service. Page 49 May 7, 2001 MR. PALMER: Uh-huh. MS. BAISLEY: But those vehicles do not have decals on them under this ordinance. Do they need to? MS. ARNOLD: Not according to this. It's exempt. MR. PALMER: Well, it's -- it's exempt if it -- if it has these markings. It isn't -- it doesn't stop as the word is defined in Florida Statutes, period. It goes on to say that the vehicle is marked as a vehicle for the transportation disadvantaged. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. So -- and I don't know what that is but -- MS. BAISLEY: Well, all the vehicle currently says is "community transportation" on it; that's it. MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. MR. PALMER: Well, then we're getting into a whole area which I haven't looked into, but it's hypothetically possible that those vehicles are not properly marked. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Well, they use taxicabs for a lot of it. MS. ARNOLD: Well, the -- the county's transportation disadvantaged service's called Community Transportation. MS. BAISLEY: Right. MS. ARNOLD: So that's why they are marked with that -- MS. BAISLEY: That's a magnetic sign on the side of their vehicle that says "Community Transportation.". MS. ARNOLD: Our contract with whomever the county hires for that service was called "Community Transportation.". MR. PALMER: Do they put a -- if I have a taxicab, do I put something on the side of the taxicab that lets the person that's hired that taxicab know that I'm -- this is a vehicle ? MS. ARNOLD: Usually it's not a taxicab. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Oh, it is a taxicab. MR. PALMER: It shouldn't be, because the transportation disadvantaged is supposed to be for people who can't use an ordinary car. Page 50 May 7, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: They do use taxicabs from time to time in their service, but there are little Kias, I think they are, running around that say "Community Transportation" on them. MR. PALMER: Okay. Well, they get in the whole area, but my -- and I didn't analyze it in detail. But my understanding was that if a vehicle is for the transportation disadvantaged, that's a vehicle particularly for a person that can't comfortably get into an ordinary cab. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think that they're definitely using cabs. They're definitely using Checker Cab; right? MS. BAISLEY: They do use cabs from time to time. MR. PALMER: Are they ordinary -- ordinary four-door cars ? MS. BAISLEY: Yes. They're regular cars. MR. PALMER: Well, something doesn't make sense to me. MR. BRIDENTHAL: No. Transportation disadvantaged doesn't necessarily mean handicapped. MS. ARNOLD: That's right. MR. PALMER: Well, that's the way I read the law. MR. BRIDENTHAL: No. It means poor. MS. HU: Even if it were handicapped -- MR. BRIDENTHAL: And the county subsidized in there. MS. HU: -- it doesn't specify what type of handicap. There can be a mentally retarded person or a handicap --. MR. PALMER: Well, what it talks about is the person who cannot comfortably get into an ordinary car is what it says. That's the language in the statute, as I recall. MS. ARNOLD: You know what, Tom? Why don't I try and get the county's contract -- MR. PALMER: All right. MS. ARNOLD: -- and -- and give that to you because then that way we can better draft these definitions to fit what the county's transportation disadvantaged program requires. Page 51 May 7, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: Well-- MR. PALMER: Well, my -- my point is, when I read our old definition of handicapped vehicle, it means that people can't get into an ordinary car. Why wouldn't this coincide with the definition in the statute for transportation disadvantaged? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, it looked good on paper. MR. PALMER: Well, I don't -- I'll look at it. I don't recall including people who can't afford to pay a taxicab. MR. FLEGAL: If the state statute defines this transportation for disadvantaged, as I understand the law, a county can't loosen that. They can make it more restrictive, but they can't loosen it. MR. PALMER: That would make sense. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MS. ARNOLD: But the county is governed by a statute, their program is, and that's where it's coming from. So I'd like to provide that information to Tom because it's possible he's not looking at the right area because, you know, we have our county program that is definitely used to be in a metropolitan planning organization. It started there, administering there, and now I think it's under the health department or something so -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think that would help. MR. HYDE: I also think you're looking at two different programs. One is a handicapped transportation vehicle, and the other one is transportation for disadvantaged. And however you classify disadvantaged, if it's financial or a mentally retarded, that's -- those individuals could still use a Checker Cab or any other commercial vehicle. They just don't have the finances to pay for it. And that's what's under this thing with the county. It's a separate program. It has nothing to do with transportation for a handicapped or physically impaired individual. MR. FLEGAL.' And they wouldn't be exempt. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And they may be changing their Page 52 May 7, 2001 definitions now that there's public transportation. That used to be an ad hoc public transportation system is what it used to be. People could -- I mean, I remember going into their office one time and complaining about having to pick somebody up on Gulf Shore Boulevard because they wanted to go for free. MS. ARNOLD: I thought that -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: It was an elderly person. MS. ARNOLD: I thought they had to meet certain criteria. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I had a question on D, sightseeing cars. What's the definition of a sightseeing car? MS. ARNOLD: Trolley. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Because I have cars that are contracted for sightseeing. MR. FLEGAL.' To the county? CHAIRMAN PEASE: No. MR. FLEGAL: This says to the county. CHAIRMAN PEASE: There's a comma. It says "sightseeing cars and buses, or buses operated pursuant to the franchise by the county." so under the current wording, if a client wants to go sightseeing in a sedan Town Car, they don't have to use a permitted one. MS. BAISLEY: Well, that's what that says, I think. MR. BRIDENTHAL: That's what it says. CHAIRMAN PEASE: A trolley would work for me. MS. ARNOLD: A trolley would be an example that I'm thinking of. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And not just -- mini buses can be sightseeing. MR. FLEGAL: That's not the way I read the sentence. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, I do because there's a comma there. MR. FLEGAI.: No, it's sightseeing cars and buses or buses Page 53 May 7, 2001 operated under or pursuant to a franchise from the county. Does the trolley -- It's not franchised to the county, and that's MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: the way I read it. MS. BAISLEY: county ? Does the trolley have a franchise from the CHAIRMAN PEASE: No. It doesn't need one because -- MR. FLEGAL: Not licensed. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- it's over the number of seat capacity that the county regulates. MR. PALMER: I read that sentence to be, as -- as you did, sightseeing cars and buses, period, and buses operated under-- pursuant to a franchise in the county. The qualifier "pursuant to" does not apply to the words in front of the comma. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So that means -- MR. PALMER: This is the way it's read from day one. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Which we need to make a change with that. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Trolleys or buses that operate under a franchise. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I would say any vehicle over 15 passengers. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. But then your -- your limo would qualify. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Oh, that's true. That's true. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Have you got a 20.passenger limo? CHAIRMAN PEASE: There -- no, I'm not. I think there's one operating in the county right now. You're right. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Why don't you make it trolleys or buses? MS. ARNOLD: Why don't we strike cars? MR. BRIDENTHAL: Yeah. Make it trolleys or buses. MR. PALMER: Well, what -- what is it that you want to Page 54 May 7, 2001 regulate that -- MS. ARNOLD: These are exceptions. MR. PALMER: Yes. And if you -- and anything you carve out of here becomes nonexempt. MS. ARNOLD: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. BRIDENTHAL: CHAIRMAN PEASE: because -- The word "cars" -- Changes it. It -- but -- but buses doesn't cut it either MS. ARNOLD: Why not? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, because you could have a 25- passenger mini bus which could do sightseeing tours. MS. ARNOLD: So? Do we care about that? MS. HU: We don't regulate anything over-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: So why do we even have buses in there then? MS. ARNOLD: These are exemptions. Sightseeing buses would be exempt or a bus under the county's franchise -- MS. BAISLEY: Then they're not regulated anyways. Right. So why are we exempting something that's MS. ARNOLD: MS. BAISLEY: not regulated? CHAIRMAN PEASE: sentence? MS. ARNOLD: No. So why don't we get rid of the whole Because you need to have it in there saying they're exempted and that they're not being regulated. MR. FLEGAL: If you take it out, then that means they're regulated. MS. ARNOLD: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Then if we're going to say that -- then we need to expand on what -- MS. ARNOLD: No. We should just strike through "cars," I Page 55 May 7, 2001 think. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Mini buses would be considered buses. We're okay with that. We're verbally -- we're just arbitrarily deciding what the definition of buses is. MS. BAISLEY: But this ordinance doesn't regulate anything over 15 passengers. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But it may if a limousine -- it could very well be--. MS. BAISLEY: Yeah. You in that limo. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yes, it will. MR. PALMER: The sentence that I'm reading now is -- is inclusive as -- any striking from this sentence other than it reads now is going to make it small -- the scope of its application smaller. Right now it applies to sightseeing cars and sightseeing buses, period. It also apply -- exempts buses operated under or pursuant to a franchise with the county. If we would take out the word "cars," it would mean sightseeing buses. And that means sightseeing cars might be regulated. MS. ARNOLD: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: They are regulated. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: They are regulated? CHAIRMAN PEASE: They sure are. MR. PALMER: Oh. MS. ARNOLD: Except most of the ones that are being used for sightseeing are -- are chartered things. MS. BAISLEY: And less than 15 passengers. MS. ARNOLD: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: They would fall under the charter -- MR. PALMER: Well -- well, that's it, but -- but that distinguishes -- that is a -- that is a -- a charter vehicle being used for sightseeing. Page 56 May 7, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MR. PALMER: This -- this is talking about -- this -- I don't think this is talking about that. This is talking about something other than that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What is that? MR. PALMER: I don't know what a sightseeing car is. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't either. MR. PALMER: But obviously -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's a charter vehicle. MR. PALMER: I don't know. It's something other than the charter vehicles because we know charter vehicles, irrespective of how their clientele is going around, is under this ordinance. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Tom, that -- that verbiage does not work. MR. PALMER: Well, it may not work. But what I'm saying is, if we want to go ahead and -- and change it, fine. But the fact -- what -- what is it that we want to exem -- apply this ordinance by dropping it out of an exemption? The definition, if you drop it out of exemption, it becomes applicable. MS. ARNOLD: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Which is what the problem is. MS. ARNOLD: That's what we want to -- MR. BRIDENTHAL: Cross off "cars" and put in "trolleys.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: I -- I would say cross off "sightseeing cars and buses" and just put "buses operated under or pursuant to a franchise from the county.". MS. ARNOLD: Hmm. MR. HYDE: Which means anything larger than a 15- passenger. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well-- MR. HYDE: You don't have to state it, but that's what you're implying. Page 57 May 7, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: But that 20-passenger limo is not going to -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm -- I'm saying we don't need to talk about the 25-passenger sightseeing or the trolleys. We just say the buses operating under a franchise from the county. MR. PALMER: That could be any size bus. That could be a ten-passenger bus. MR. BRIDENTHAL: Yeah. If they're under county - -. MS. ARNOLD: And does that include the trolleys, because we don't regulate the trolleys? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does it include the trolleys? It doesn't even mention the trolleys. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. But by not mentioning it, does it then say that we regulate it? We don't. MR. PALMER: You're right. MR. BRIDENTHAL: They're over 15 passengers. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We're back to the definition of the vehicles that go beyond the scope of this body, which is the DOT, which falls under DOT provisions. MR. PALMER: Well, it's no -- if they've got exclusive preempted jurisdiction, that's that. Nothing in this ordinance changes any of that. In fact, I've never even done an -- had the time to do an exhaustive list. That list might possibly include that. I have no idea what it might include. MS. ARNOLD: I -- I rec -- I would recommend that we put trolleys or buses, similar to what Bryan was saying, that -- MR. FLEGAL: Change the word "car" to "trolley," and let's quit. MS. ARNOLD: Or you just take out "sightseeing," period. What difference does it make? MR. FLEGAL: What they're doing. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: Who was it -- how -- how was the sightseeing Page 58 May 7, 2001 bus regulated? Who regulates it? CHAIRMAN PEASE: DOT. MR. PALMER: The one that's operating around Nape -- in the City of Naples, that's DOT? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Uh-huh. Because it's 20 -- those are 25- passenger vehicles. MR. PALMER: Okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So like our mini coach is 25 passengers. Yours is 32 or something. MS. BAISLEY: Thirty-three. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Those fall under DOT regulations. MR. PALMER: But don't they also require a permit from City of Naples to operate within the City of Naples? The state can't say you can operate under the City of Naples; the city's -- the city council says, "Oh, no, we don't like this.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: The city can't stop mini coaches or motor coaches. MR. PALMER: Oh, I bet they can. MR. FLEGAL: Oh, yeah. MR. PALMER: Oh, yes they can. Not interstate commerce. But they can -- if -- if somebody -- if I wanted to go into a city like Key West and I want to operate a trolley service, you can bet damned well I've got to get a permit with the city of Key West to do it. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. Because the county's CAT system cannot go in the city other than U.S. 41. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm not talking about the City of Naples. Let's exclude the City of Naples for a second. But the question is, does the county regulate the trolleys? MS. ARNOLD: No. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And there's no -- they do not. Anyone -- tomorrow, if Eric wanted to start a trolley service and have -- not Page 59 May 7, 2001 stops on the highway, which the trolley doesn't operate any stops on the highway, but in privately run businesses he could set up a trolley system to operate. I could set up one tomorrow. MR. FLEGAL: You mean a public transportation system? CHAIRMAN PEASE: His is not a public. It's a sightseeing trolley and -- MR. FLEGAL: It's public transportation. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You can only board -- you can only board at a private business. I don't know but -- MR. PALMER: I'd be very surprised if anybody -- the state can come in and say to somebody, "You can operate a trolley system in Collier County and Coil -- whether Collier County likes it or not.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's totally private. It's a privately operated trolley. It has -- there's no government -- MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. We don't-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- body required. Let's take a ten-minute, and then we'll come back to it. MS. ARNOLD: Okay. (A short break was held.) CHAIRMAN PEASE: What are we on? D, sightseeing -- what did we decide to do with that? MS. ARNOLD: My recommendation would be strike through "cars" and just leave it at "buses.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: Now, what does that do to sightseeing cars? If I've got a sightseeing car, not a taxicab --. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What is a sightseeing car? MR. PALMER: Well, I don't know. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's a charter. MR. HYDE: Which falls under the regulation. MS. ARNOLD: Right. Page 60 May 7, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: A sightseeing car is a charter vehicle; right? MS. BAISLEY: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We don't have anybody operating a sightseeing car, so if you do, we'd make them get a charter license. MS. CRUZ: We don't at this time, but we did before. Someone was operating a sightseeing company or business out of Everglades. I think it was called Everglades Tours or something like that, and they did go through the process, and they did get a license for it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Charter? MS. CRUZ: Yes. MR. PALMER: Well, do you want to read this to say "sightseeing buses"? Do you want to strike the word "cars and" - MS. ARNOLD: Why don't we just say buses, period. MS. CRUZ: The only thing I would like to see in there where it exempts them from -- because they're considered a charter vehicle. And if you go to the charter definition, they're not allowed to put any writing on the vehicles. In these businesses they do want to advertise a type of sightseeing business that they're doing. And they do. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, don't we allow that on vans ? MS. BAISLEY: Yes. MS. CRUZ: I don't see where we allow that on vans. I thought the vans are classified as a charter and they have to abide by the charter definition. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Maybe when we get to that section we can talk further on that. MS. BAISLEY: We better talk further. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Since your board is not in compliance. Page 61 May 7, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: So what are we doing to this sentence now? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Are we going with buses or sightseeing buses? MS. ARNOLD: Buses, I would just recommend. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Buses which fall under DOT requirements or just buses? Mini buses will be considered buses. MR. HYDE: You could put any vehicle that falls under DOT regulation, which would encompass all of them. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Based on vehicle weight. Does that work for you, Mr. Palmer? MR. PALMER: Well, I -- certainly we can put an omnibus exclusion. It goes without saying as a matter of law what we put here that any vehicle that is -- is regulated exclusively as a matter of law by some other jurisdiction, we don't have jurisdiction. We can put it in here. It goes without saying. But what do we do here about -- right now we have "buses, or buses operated or pursuant to a franchise." is that what we want this thing to say? MS. ARNOLD: They're exempt, yeah. MR. PALMER: All buses-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: All buses are exempt. MR. PALMER: All buses are exempt. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Uh-huh, all 25-passenger mini buses are exempt. MR. PALMER: Well, then we -- in other words, whether they're operated pursuant to a franchise in the county is not a mandatory prerequisite. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's right. MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: say buses. We just say buses. Period. Okay. If that's what we want to do, we'll just Page 62 May 7, 2001 MS. HU: But wouldn't buses already be implied because buses have more than 15 passengers, so we don't -- MR. PALMER: They don't always. They said there are small buses. CHAIRMAN PEASE: There are VIP buses with living rooms. MS. BAISLEY: There's one of those right now. Limo has one of those sitting on Pine Ridge Road. that it is made into a party bus. bus. Hollywood It's a mini bus CHAIRMAN PEASE: Full-size motorcoach; it's like a -- MS. BAISLEY: No. It's a mini bus, but it's made into a party I haven't seen the inside of it, but that's what it is. CHAIRMAN PEASE: There's one that operates out of -- you're right --. MR. PALMER: And is it regulated by Collier County ? MS. BAISLEY: It has no decals on it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: No. Because of the weight of the vehicle, requires it to go under DOT law. MR. PALMER: Well, now, that raises a whole new issue. Assuming DOT regulates it, fine. Let's assume it's a bus described -- then another problem is describing what is a bus and what is not a bus. But assuming it's a bus and it isn't regulated by anybody else, by the DOT or anybody else, then it's just unregulated, isn't it? CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't know of any bus -- I don't know of any bus that's not regulated by the DOT or any -- because it's by weight. I've got a DOT book. Would that help you? MR. PALMER: Well, what -- what -- I -- I -- we were out the other day, and we -- and we -- it was at three o'clock, and we saw every shape and size of school bus you could imagine. They were little teeny buses and huge buses and everything in between. And I'm saying to myself, look at the shapes and sizes buses come in. And we -- we actually use the word "buses" here. Page 63 May 7, 2001 That's pretty darned broad. This says -- this means buses irrespective of whether they're regulated or not regulated by anybody else. We're just not regulating them. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I hear what he says, though, if you take that --. MS. ARNOLD: No. What was suggested is that buses that fall under the DOT regs -- MR. PALMER: It doesn't say that. It just says buses. It doesn't say buses that are regulated by DOT. MS. ARNOLD: I know. But what was suggested is what is that -- so that anything that's being regulated by someone else would not be regulated by the county. MR. PALMER: Well, that's going to be a new -- something down below. We're going to have a general exclusion. Any vehicle is under the regulatory jurisdictions of any other governmental agency. Right now if we have the word "buses," it doesn't say "buses regulated by somebody else." it just says we don't regulate any buses, thank you. The next thing you know was the guy going to say -- whatever it is he's going to say, "That's a bus.". CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. So -- right, I hear you. So let's eliminate everything up to where it says "buses operated under or pursuant to a franchise from the county." what if we just say that? MR. FLEGAL: Well, then you'd regulate buses. CHAIRMAN PEASE: No. Buses operated under or pursuant to a franchise from the county. MR. FLEGAL: That's fine. But if -- but if I don't have a franchise with the county, I can go out and buy me a bus and -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. FLEGAL: -- it's not regulated. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I hear you. I hear you. That is -- that is Page 64 May 7, 2001 not regulated. You're right. MS. BAISLEY: Why can't we just say buses are exempt that are regulated by DOT? MS. HU: I'm sorry. I -- I remember our stating that why don't you just put vehicles regulated by the DOT? That would cover buses -- MR. PALMER: Well, we were going to -- I was going to add a -- broader on the bus subdivision, which essentially says, "any other vehicle regulated exclusively like DOT or any other state agency.". MS. ARNOLD: Okay. If you say that then, then we don't have to worry about buses. MS. HU: Right. We need not to include this sentence at all. MR. PALMER: No. No. That still leaves the possibility of something called a bus that's not regulated by some other government. MS. HU: But we don't regulate buses. MR. PALMER: You don't want to regulate that individual. MS. ARNOLD: Okay. So you just said you're going to put some exclusionary language that says anything regulated by someone else is exempted. MR. PALMER: Right. MS. ARNOLD: So if it's a bus and it's not regulated by the state, which we don't believe -- MR. PALMER: There is such a thing. MS. ARNOLD: -- there is such a thing -- MR. PALMER: Right. MS. ARNOLD: -- then we would regulate it. exempted. It would not be MR. HYDE: I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure. I don't believe that there is anything that is -- can be verbalized as a bus that is not regulated by the DOT. Page 65 May 7, 2001 MR. PALMER: All right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Only one thing I can think of, Eric, and it's so weird that I don't think anybody would do it but what he was talking about, one of those small school buses, bigger than a van but -- but not enough seats, probably -- not enough weight or seats to fall under DOT. I don't know if there would be something like that or not. MR. HYDE: If it's -- if it's listed as -- if it's listed as a bus, it falls under DOT. I don't -- I don't know of any -- not in Florida. I mean, even the small ones, the guys that drive from Immokalee and drive the workers in, the little ones that they bought at auction from the -- they're still buses. They're all regulated by DOT. I'm almost positive. MR. PALMER: All right. Then I'll expand D -- MR. HYDE: To the regulatory. MR. PALMER: -- to basically -- you know, to clean it up, make it clear what we're talking about. If somebody else regulates it, we don't. MR. HYDE: Because the state has jurisdiction over it anyway, right. I mean, we --. MR. PALMER: Well, that's what we're assuming. We're assuming that. MR. HYDE: Right. MR. PALMER: But, obviously if somebody is exclusively regulated by somebody else, then that's the way it is. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Would that mean, then, that the City of Naples by your verbiage, do you want to add the City of Naples could do their own thing and supersede the county? MR. PALMER: Within the city limits, yes. Within the city limits. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Huh. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. They can do that now. They can do Page 66 May 7, 2001 owned by a hotel. MS. BAISLEY: transportation. anything they want in the city limits. MR. HYDE: They're already doing it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. All right. Are we ready to go on then? MS. BAISLEY: I have a question on E. Shuttle services owned and operated directly by a hotel or motel, limited transportation services only to its guests, didn't it used to say "courtesy shuttles" and not those that they were being reimbursed for? MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. It should say "courtesy.". MS. BAISLEY: Because that's why the Ritz-Carlton had originally come in and gotten a permit here. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Good point. They do operate a service Limited terms-- But they collect funds for their CHAIRMAN PEASE: They do. MS. BAISLEY: There are a couple of hotels here that have a courtesy shuttle. I think the Beach Club has an occasional thing that -- a little car that they use for courtesy shuttle but they don't charge for it. MR. HYDE: Hilton -- Hilton does too. MS. BAISLEY: Hilton does too. MS. ARNOLD: So we're saying that we should not be exempting shuttle services if there's a compensation for it. MS. BAISLEY: Right, correct. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MS. ARNOLD: So it should only be courtesy -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Courtesy shuttle services. MR. HYDE: And we don't fall under that category, because we don't do anything for free. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, which goes back to B where is Page 67 May 7, 2001 there anybody that's charging their employees to come to work, any type of system? It's all courtesy; right? MR. HYDE: We're not -- we don't do that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But if a company -- if a hotel wanted to charge, they would be exempt under C. MS. ARNOLD: What? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Under B. If a -- if a company wanted to charge their employees a service to come to work, they would be exempt. MR. PALMER: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So if you wanted to charge 10 cents to the employee, they don't fall under our -- this body. MR. PALMER: If it's limited to the activities defined and described in B. This has nothing to do with whether or not they pay or they don't pay. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. It's just if they're toting their -- MR. HYDE: Exactly. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, they do that, a lot of the farm workers. You see them taking them out to 6 Ls and all these places from Immokalee, bus loads of them going down 951. They're just taking them to work. MR. HYDE: But B also implies that it's a vehicle of more than 14 passengers. And, again, that falls under -- again, when you see what is transporting those people are usually buses. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MS. CRUZ: What about the daycares? They have mini vans. They provide transportation from and to school. MS. ARNOLD: But they don't charge -- MS. CRUZ: They -- sometimes they do charge. MS. BAISLEY: That's correct. MS. ARNOLD: Additional? Page 68 May 7, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Hmm, boy. MS. CRUZ: Ouch. MR. PALMER: Well, where does that go? That doesn't quite go in anything we have here right now. But we're not regulating them, are we ? MS. CRUZ: No. MR. PALMER: No. But it -- it -- what I'm saying is they're not expressly excluded in any text we have here, though. MS. CRUZ: No. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Why -- why don't we care more about the adult than we do the child? MR. HYDE: But we -- we should care about the children, if the children are being transported in a vehicle that is not a safe environment. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Absolutely. MR. HYDE: Who -- who represents those people that -- somebody's got to. MS. ARNOLD: I think that they probably are regulated by the health department too. MR. PALMER: Yeah. They certainly are. They're regulated by their license. The question is whether or not that goes to the - - anybody inspecting the vehicles that they use. MS. BAISLEY: When I was in that business several years ago, it was only that you had to have a DOT inspection on your vehicle. The guy came out once a year and looked to make sure your brakes worked and your lights worked. MR. PALMER: That was DOT. CHAIRMAN PEASE: They didn't care about insurance. MS. BAISLEY: They didn't check that stuff, no, just the safety of the vehicle. MS. ARNOLD: The rules have changed quite a bit. I know Page 69 May 7, 2001 that the daycare that my kids go to, they just recently got a vehicle. So I could find out and -- MR. PALMER: Somebody's inspecting it. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: Yeah. The thing about it is it seems -- my -- my thinking out loud is if somebody else doesn't, we should. But if somebody else does, fine. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So we need to find out if they require insurance. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah, they do. MR. PALMER: I think they do under state law. My recollection is Chapter 316 says that essentially in so many words, any vehicle that's used to transport people like this nature gets an annual inspection has a whole list of things that -- that they must inspect. MS. BAISLEY: Do we have to make them exempt under this, though, because in certain cases they are charging for the transportation service? MR. PALMER: Well, the question is whether or not they're already exempt as a matter of law or whether we've even got the discretion to regulate them. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So you're going to research that? MS. BAISLEY: In his spare time. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You're our attorney. It's certainly a legal thing. MR. PALMER: Yeah, I know. But anybody can call these agencies and find that stuff out just as well as I can. MS. ARNOLD: I'll get you some information, Tom. MR. PALMER: Yeah. Basically, you find out regu -- if you wanted to start a daycare center, what are the kind of rules you've got to follow. MR. HYDE: They're extensive. We thought about that. That Page 70 May 7, 2001 wasn't a money maker. MS. ARNOLD: No. MR. PALMER: You've got to jump through so many hoops and report to so many people. MS. BAISLEY: That's why I sold mine. MR. PALMER: I would hope that they're regulated, that they are inspected by the state once a year. MS. ARNOLD: I'm pretty sure they are. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Are we ready to go forward? Section 14230 with the complexion of the PVAC. One of the suggestions I made, and I see what we've done is we've talked about lowering it to two -- two members in business; is that right? MR. PALMER: Yeah. That's what it-- CHAIRMAN PEASE: My -- my suggestion is three but one be from charter, one be from taxi, and one be from the nonemergency transport segment. Those are all three segments we represent. I think every one of them ought to have a voice. MR. FLEGAL: Well, even -- they do have a voice. There's five members on the -- on the thing. My idea of changing from 3 to 2 was I just feel on any committee that's regulating anything, when the power rests with three people in that industry -- MR. PALMER: It might be skewed a little bit? MR. FLEGAL: Oh, yeah, right. Give me a break. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But you look back on the history of this, and -- well, we've been extremely difficult on our own -- on our own -- MS. BAISLEY: I think-- MR. FLEGAL: I'm not saying you haven't. It's just -- to me when you have an ordinance that says -- and we'll just use this as an example, and I know since I've been on it we've been very hard on the people and -- and trying to get it right. But in rates, if you have three people in the industry and they come in and say Page 71 May 7, 2001 let's raise the rates, you got three people already on their team say okay. MS. BAISLEY: That's not my case. MR. FLEGAL: I understand that. I'm just saying that the way it's written, you have three people in power to just slide all this stuff through. I think that's wrong in the public image to have the power rest with these three people. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm in the business. I voted against it. MR. FLEGAL: I understand. I said we've been very hard. But the document reads, when you pick it up, you got three people in the business, and anything is going to be able to go through. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does anybody have any objection to one from the principal, one from each segment ? MR. PALMER: There's only one downside on that, whether or not you're going to always have qualified people. The more you narrow the focus, then somebody from the charter business just can't be bothered and -- and then you're stuck with either -- they - - somebody doesn't qualify -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. PALMER: -- or you got somebody that is on here and is going through the motions and just doesn't give a damn. MR. FLEGAL: It could be a one-vehicle charter business and they get on the board and they don't really know all the things that you know of because you have a lot of them or -- or Pat knows because she has a ton of vehicles. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's a valid point, and I -- I'll give you that. But I want to go back through the history of this board. And we went through long periods of time where we could not get someone from the community to show up. We had empty seats for a long period of time on this. MS. BAISLEY: Yes. Page 72 May 7, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm sure you remember that too because they don't understand the business, they don't really care about the business. You've been a great addition to the board and -- and so has Mr. Csogi. Working on it. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And really care. But we've had years, years where we went through a series of people that just -- they didn't get it. They couldn't understand it and didn't want to be a part of it. So here we're now limiting at least the people in the transportation business care about it and want to make sure it's done right. So I have some concerns about limiting it back to two, MR. HYDE: I think that the number two or three is -- I think three gives you a pretty good focus. Bryan's comment in comparison to getting somebody from the nonambulatory environment, how many of them are there, would they actually participate, that's a -- that's another whole key. But the other side of it is to make sure whatever you do when you represent this board, you're representing the board not from your aspect of your businesses; you're representing the people of Collier County. That's the way I look at it. What's going to be in the best interests of the people, not me or the hotel that I represent but what works best for everybody? That's kind of the way -- MR. PALMER: Well, that's ideal. However, that's not the way -- that's the problem, obviously, the potential for self interest. MR. FLEGAL: Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Michelle, are there any other committees that are similar to ours, I mean, a contractor's group or-- MR. PALMER: Yes, the Contractors' Licensing Board. Page 73 May 7, 2001 CHAIRMAN PEASE: How does that lay out? MR. PALMER: The law was just changed two years ago. It's got six contractors and three lay people, mandatory. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So that's not a problem on their end? MS. ARNOLD: But the thing with the contractor's licensing, you may have a contractor with different -- different affiliation, like -- MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: You try to. A plumber. A plumber or roof -- General contractor, electrician. Right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other groups that are comparable to ours? MR. FLEGAL: Not really because, see, we -- here you reg -- right now you regulate a rate in contractors and all that. I mean, it's -- MS. ARNOLD: They're not regulating. MR. FLEGAL: They're not regulating anything. So here you have the premise that you have three people from the, quote, unquote, industry. And they have the power to say whether this rate goes up or down, realizing we don't regulate charter services, but the charter service industry is so closely tied to the taxi industry. In a lot of cases some of it are the same firms. You have the, quote, unquote, appearance that these people all sit in the same pocket where most all of the other committees that I've read about in the county aren't like that. MS. ARNOLD: No. The contractor's licensing, although you have so many that are, you know, affiliated with that business, be it a wide range, they don't -- like Mr. Flegal was saying, they don't regulate what the codes say for the electric -- electricians. They -- they more are looking at the best interests of the public as a -- Page 74 May 7, 2001 MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: the contract. MR. PALMER: No question about -- they are very -- they are very responsible board. MR. HYDE: That's the way it should be. MS. ARNOLD: With respect to whether or not the public is being served accordingly. Yes. Is the contract being lived out to the letter of MS. BAISLEY: MR. PALMER: votes. MR. PALMER: Right. MS. ARNOLD: And -- and they don't really regulate how you put -- you know, hook up your electrical or how you roof or reroof your structure. MR. PALMER: What they do is they weed out the bad apples. And they're good at it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I concur with you, and I understand where you're coming from. However, the reverse is just as -- as damaging; and that is, three people who don't understand the transportation business making decisions on behalf of the transportation. Here -- this is much broader than -- than the guest safety. This encompasses much more than guest safety. What if you make it even three and three? Well, then you get a possibility of counting CHAIRMAN PEASE: Tom gets to vote. MR. PALMER: One thing, the board -- this board is an advisory board vis-a-vis rates. This board does not set rates; the Board of County Commissioners does. And, therefore, to that extent you're advisory, but you still run the risk of advising to the benefit of the businesses rather than the people so that the principle still applies. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. It -- it -- right now the people on the board are very strong. And we're each very vocal, and it seems it Page 75 May 7, 2001 has worked very well. But let's say the four of us, our terms are up, and we -- we're not on the board anymore. Now all of a sudden you get three people from the, quote, unquote, industry. And they say, hey, the first thing we're going to do is recommend to the county commissioners that this get changed to the disadvantage of the citizens of Collier County but to the advantage of the industry. I mean, we're great, but what about the people after us that are going to administer this stuff because I can guarantee you the four of us sitting in this room won't be on this board for the next 40 years? At some point we're all going to say, "Okay, my time's up and I have other things to do.". MR. PALMER: And there is -- there are term limits, aren't there? There are -- there is a certain minimum number of terms unless you are appointed, I think, by a supermajority of the -- MR. FLEGAL: I don't think on this -- in this committee. MR. PALMER: It isn't ? MR. FLEGAL: No. It's when you can -- you know, as long as you're reappointed, you could serve forever, but I don't know that all of us want to do that. MS. HU: That's one thing that I was going to ask or suggest that we clarify. If we do or do not have -- I understand we don't have any of that. I've looked into several different ordinances which tell you the terms of an advisory committee, but it doesn't tell you how many times a person can serve. MR. PALMER: Well, there's an issue here because it -- this ordinance does not expressly exempt itself from our ordinance. It pertains to all boards, and that has term limits in it. And so it leaves an ambiguity of whether or not that ordinance trumps this ordinance for the purposes of reappointments. And if we are going to exempt ourselves in that ordinance, we ought to expressly say so that notwithstanding anything in that ordinance Page 76 May 7, 2001 that people can be re -- be reappointed for-- there's no term limit on reappointments, because right now somebody could argue it that ordinance trumps every ordinance that doesn't expressly exempt itself from it, and we do not expressly exempt this board from that ordinance. That's a new ordinance too. MS. BAISLEY: When we have a specific question, say, about the rates on taxicabs, why can't that board member, like myself, not vote? MR. FLEGAL: Well, then you could end up in a 2/2, and you're -- you're trying to eliminate any -- any ties. I'd hate to see us get tied on anything because I think fortunately most of this stuff we've ever done has been good for the industry and the citizens. CHAIRMAN PEASE: The board can change from time to time. I will say that this last time when mine came up, I sent a letter that said, you know, if -- if anyone from the transportation business applies, take them because I think that change is good. And nobody applied. So even in our own industry it's hard sometimes to fill -- fill the chairs. MR. PALMER: In answer to your question, you would normally have a conflict in that situation. But for the fact that this ordinance requires three members of the industry to be, that absolves the conflict when the board understands that three people of this board will be affiliated with a business or another that's actually regulated by this ordinance. There's an attorney general's opinion or commission of ethics opinion on this issue so that everybody understands that, yes, there are people that are making these decisions who own these businesses. That's okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, I don't like the change. MR. PALMER: You think it's going the wrong way? MS. BAISLEY: I don't either because of the problems that we've had with the public members in the past. Right now we Page 77 May 7, 2001 have good members. MR. PALMER: I don't have a suggestion. MS. BAISLEY: We've had several that didn't show up for meetings. Didn't even know what the ordinance was about at all. CHAIRMAN PEASE: In the same manner that my idea was bad for stifling the potential circle of potential candidates, I think this does the same thing. MR. PALMER: Well, it does if the members of the general public are having difficulty getting responsive members of the board. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MR. PALMER: Are we going to leave the -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Maybe -- maybe we don't -- maybe we don't stipulate any. Maybe we -- who decides who gets appointed to the board? MR. PALMER: The Board of County Commissioners. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Maybe we leave it up to the commissioners. MR. PALMER: Well, that -- that's problematic. They do not focus on this to that extent. Well, I think that could be dangerous because MR. FLEGAL: you can get-- MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: You could end up with five. Yeah. You could get five nonindustry people, and that -- I think that would be dangerous because then you have nobody representing the industry. (Mr. Bridenthal exited the room.) Or knows what's going on. They don't know how to protect the citizens MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: either so -- MS. ARNOLD: How about we do this: How about -- how about we say no more than three? Page 78 May 7, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: Well, I mean, I was just trying to get away from the three because three out of five, I mean, you got the power to do anything, if you wanted to. MS. ARNOLD: If we did no more than three affiliated, then you could have three, or you could have fewer. MR. FLEGAL: Well, but that doesn't do anything. What I'm trying -- what I was trying to get away from was three people in the industry who, okay, let's recommend we change rates: yes, yes, yes. I mean, you can't fight for the citizens and say, no, the rates shouldn't go up for this reason, you know, here's all the information. The three people in the industry just say we're going to recommend a change. That's what we want. We want more money. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What if it's not three of either side and the fifth person is up to the commissioners? MS. HU: Doesn't staff have a voice? MS. ARNOLD: No, we don't. MR. FLEGAL: No. MR. PALMER: The board actually -- that was a year ago or less -- MR. FLEGAL: Sorry. MR. PALMER: -- staff recommended one thing, the board recommended less, and the Board of County Commissioners went with the less -- do you remember ? -- on the rate increase. MS. BAISLEY: That's right. MR. PALMER: The rate increase recommended by staff was greater than the rate increase recommended by the board. And the board recommendation, which was narrower, was the one that was approved by the Board of County Commissioners. Staff actually recommended a higher rate increase than the board approved. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Uh-huh. Page 79 May 7, 2001 MR. PALMER: So there's an instance where this problem actually went the right way. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah, it did. CHAIRMAN PEASE: With three members being transportation. MR. PALMER: Yeah. MR. FLEGAL: That's why I say, fortunately now we've got a good group of people who, even though we differ on a lot of things, we're always able to work it out. But beyond us -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: I agree. I hear what you're saying. MR. FLEGAL: -- you're putting the power into somebody that we may not -- MR. PALMER: Well, one of the things -- MR. FLEGAL: -- be as good as we are. MR. PALMER: One of the things we could do, just to throw out, is you could make this subject to the availability of the qualified people at the time a seat needs to be filled. In other words, if, in fact, you -- the seat that's being vacant is a industry member and there's a qualified industry member applying, then you fill the seat with a qualified industry member. But let's assume you don't get a qualified industry member but you've got a real good citizen member. Then the board could appoint to the citizen committee. MS. ARNOLD: That was my recommendation where you would say no more than three affiliated so it could be less than two -- I mean three affiliated. You could voluntary have two affiliated or three affiliated, but you wouldn't have more than three. MR. PALMER: So depending on the particular-- MS. ARNOLD: Qualification, that's right. MR. PALMER: -- seat being filled, you've got a qualified person who's not a right category, you can still opt to fill it -- Page 80 May 7, 2001 MS. ARNOLD: Exactly. MR. PALMER: -- with that person. That -- a lot of our ordinances do that. MS. ARNOLD: Right. And then you -- MR. FLEGAL: I could live with that. MR. HYDE: I think that's fine. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think that's fine too. MR. PALMER: All right. I'll -- I'll -- I'll make it subject to that contingency. That's the way the airport authority is, for example. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Why don't you speak up more often? You have good ideas. MS. ARNOLD: Well, I said it but maybe -- you know, I need to repeat it a couple times. MR. PALMER: You didn't quite phrase it that way; that's what it was. All right. MR. HYDE: Did we make it to page 6 ? CHAIRMAN PEASE: We're there. MR. FLEGAL: We're about to. MS. CRUZ: Before -- before we go on, can I -- when I did the roll call, I forgot to mention that William Csogi was absent. MR. FLEGAL: Oh, okay. MS. CRUZ: Put that on the record. MS. HU: And I'd like to go back to what we were just talking about. Are we going to -- are we going to put the number of times that a person can serve, the number of terms he can serve is on this? MR. PALMER: I'm thinking about expressly exempting this order from the general ordinance and putting it in here; notwithstanding anything in that ordinance, this rule applies. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You know, the problem is we've got such a good board right now. And I'd hate to see any of them leave. Page 81 May 7, 2001 MR. PALMER: Kicked off just because of the general ordinance. MS. HU.' And I understand that for the present board. But like Mr. Flegal was saying, what about the future board? Well -- well, if it continues in the manner that MR. FLEGAL: it -- past history-- MS. BAISLEY: MR. FLEGAL: But you have to reapply. Yeah. MR. HYDE: Oh, yeah. MS. BAISLEY: And so if there's somebody that somebody feels is more qualified than you are, that person is going to be chosen over you. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do the commissioners make that call ? MS. ARNOLD: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: In other words, when my seat came open and there were two others -- MS. BAISLEY: That's right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- they make the decision. MR. PALMER: Now, one of the things that isn't in here but it's in the general ordinance and that's -- I don't think it's in here; that is, the board can remove a member at any time for any reason. MS. ARNOLD: Well, it probably states in the resolution that this makes reference to the resolution shall state the dates and appointments and terms of office so the resolution probably indicates -- MR. FLEGAL: I think when you get your letter, it says, you know -- I'm trying to remember how the letters read when I've got them. But I think if you limit the time, if you get good members and they do want to keep reapplying, if you tell them they can only be there two terms and then all of a sudden nobody ever wants to apply, now you're in trouble. But if somebody's willing Page 82 May 7, 2001 to donate the time, let them keep serving forever, if that's what they want to do. MS. ARNOLD: I believe the Board of County Commissioners, even though resolutions may indicate that the terms or the number of terms, the board has the ability to waive that regulation. MR. PALMER: By a certain majority, they do. MS. ARNOLD: They can do whatever. So if you even have rules and regs that indicate you can only serve two terms, if -- if the situation occurs that you described where you don't have a -- a valid candidate, the board can choose to reappoint that -- that person. MR. PALMER: Right. So if we're going to -- but that requires a supermajority. If we're going to go with a supermajority rule here, we don't have to say anything. If I put something in here that said that we exempted -- we would -- we could exempt ourselves also with a supermajority requirement -- that is four or five county commissioners -- in order to extend over the normal term. I tell you, the ordinances -- the resolutions of appointments, I don't think, have a caveat in there in every case at least it says a member can be removed for any -- with or without cause by the Board of County Commissioners. A lot of our -- most of our ordinances have that in the ordinance that says expressly that a member can be removed. And that's in case a member gets to be a real pain in the neck, and they're just -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Why are you looking at me? MR. PALMER: That's never happened to this board, but it sometimes happens. They're so disruptive that the board isn't getting anything done. We have a committee in the county that's like that right now. And it's sometimes a good idea to go ahead and just say that, that any member can be removed at any time Page 83 May 7, 2001 with or without cause by the board. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't think anybody has any problem with that verbiage. MR. HYDE: Not at all. Go for it. MR. FLEGAL: And -- and I think it would probably be on this committee's agenda to be -- to be not part of supermajority so the people could just serve, I mean -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MR. FLEGAL: -- because you have that caveat that the commissioners can remove them so -- MR. HYDE: That's fine. MR. FLEGAL.' Let Jane or John keep going. MR. PALMER: The problem is if you get a commissioner who doesn't like overappointments, they just sort of-- they just won't vote for that. Therefore, if one other person on that board is of that mind on a given case, there's never an overappointment, extended appointment. And there are a couple of commissioners that don't seem to like that, unless somebody really advocates for a member, and these things usually go on the consent agenda. And they're just looking at resumes usually. Nobody is really sort of like pitching, "Keep Mr. Jones on this board, he's really a good member.". MR. FLEGAL: I'm just trying to think if nobody applies and then, you know-- MR. PALMER: Exactly. MR. FLEGAL: -- you already said this guy's done and now you have two commissioners that don't like to do anything, now all of a sudden you've taken a five-member board down to a four- member board and possibly to a -- you keep shrinking because you can't get reappointed. That's kind of bad. MS. ARNOLD: They typically wouldn't do that. If there's no other candidates, they typically just accept that candidate or Page 84 May 7, 2001 unless there is a problem with an existing candidate. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Let's don't put the term limits. I don't think anybody in the PVAC wants -- MR. FLEGAL: No. I -- I think limits are kind of bad for this committee anyway. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Can we go forward to page 6? MS. ARNOLD: Yup. MR. FLEGAL: I'll -- to start with, I found some misspellings up in the beginning. MR. PALMER: Okay. MR. FLEGAL: The first underlined, "and shall attend at". Is it-- isn't MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: that more ? MR. PALMER: All. It's supposed to be all, I think. Yeah. That's all. Then meetings instead of meeting. Uh-huh. And then if you keep going over, the word "or," Miss more than three, yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We had a -- we had a vote, I think, on the last board meeting where the verbiage, we did not require the alternate to attend three meetings in a row, and we took a vote on that. MS. BAISLEY: I think we did. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And this ordinance draft contradicts that vote; correct? MS. ARNOLD: I think it's a bad idea not to require it because our alternate on this board has not attended any meetings. I don't understand how somebody could be kept abreast of what's going on on a committee without attending the meetings. And if you don't attend the meetings, how do you know if that person's Page 85 May 7, 200t even needed for a -- for a vote? MS. BAISLEY: Is that person sent a copy of the minutes of the meetings? CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's what should happen because-- MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. But if they don't show up, how do you know whether or not you're going to get a quorum? CHAIRMAN PEASE: You cannot get -- well, because she sends out a -- a fax. She'll be sending out a fax that says you're going to be here. The problem is it's the worst job that we have because I would not want to show up every meeting for 12 months, especially in the busiest time of the year, on a what-if scenario and then have to show up and then see, okay, you got your quorum that you said you were going to get by fax and now I'm going to leave, or I have to sit there for hours knowing that you're not going to get to do anything. MR. FLEGAL: We have two alternates on the Code Enforcement Board, and they -- they pretty much show up religiously because they want to know what's going on. And they never know who's going to attend. CHAIRMAN PEASE: They get to -- they don't get to vote. MR. FLEGAL: No. They sit there and listen. Unless somebody is -- they can -- they can join in and ask questions; they're just not allowed to vote. MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. And their input is provided. MR. FLEGAL: They participate. They're alternates, but they know what's haPpening so that if next month when they show up a regular member's out, they already know the past history and not from just reading minutes. They sat there and actually joined in asking questions, listening to all the answers, you know, hearing all the testimony. I think an alternate should participate because we're back to where we just said about getting the public to be on this board, you've got somebody that's on this Page 86 May 7, 2001 board but never comes to a meeting where there could be a member of the public that would like to come. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All right. I'll change my-- my thought process on that, but just be advised that that position is probably going to remain empty on a regular basis. That's my personal opinion. MR. position. MR. MS. MR. HYDE: Or we've got to get the right person in the FLEGAL: Well, but it's emptying out -- CRUZ: Tom-- FLEGAL: -- because the guy's not showing up. MS. CRUZ: And not necessarily because we do have individuals that have approached us; they're interested in serving on the board. And if they can serve as an alternate, you know, in the meantime while one of the terms expire, they -- I'm sure they would be willing to do that, and they would be more than happy to do that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Good. That's good news, and I like hearing that because that person steps right up to the first opening when somebody does want to leave the board. All right. I'll go with that. MS. BAISLEY: MS. ARNOLD: MR. FLEGAL: So what do we do with the current situation? We need to notify them. Well, if he's missed three meetings -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: We have to modify our vote first. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. Well, we have to wait until a regular meeting to do that. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. In July. So you'll have to put that on the agenda then, one of you? MS. CRUZ: In that sentence there, "The alternate shall attend all meetings," I'd like to have that -- it was our suggestion Page 87 May 7, 2001 -- actually, I think it was my suggestion. I would like to have that for all the members, including the alternate, not that we have any of that problem, but that's how it is on the other -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Three consecutive meetings is a -- almost a year. MR. HYDE: A year. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. On this board. We don't meet monthly SO -- MS. CRUZ: We don't necessarily need to meet quarterly. We can meet more. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We used to meet monthly. Quarterly-- certainly we're getting our work done properly on a quarterly format, and I'd hate to change that. But I don't have a problem with three consecutive meetings you're out, three strikes you're out. MR. HYDE: I agree. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's fine with -- for members too. MR. FLEGAL: I have no problem. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Somebody could lose interest and not show up. MS. ARNOLD: Or unexcused, unexcused. You know, I mean, if somebody calls and they have a conflict, that shouldn't get counted against them. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. I mean, you know, if you go on vacation CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. You have to have a pass from your mother-- MR. FLEGAL: Your mother? CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- a signed note. MR. FLEGAL: Your mother-in-law gets sick and you've got to go to some other state or something. I mean, you could -- you could miss a couple of meetings in a row for odd stuff and Page 88 May 7, 2001 beyond your control. MR. PALMER: Do you want to leave it subject to calling you or -- MR. FLEGAL: Say unexcused absences. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Say unexcused absences for any member, whether they're alternates or regular. MR. HYDE: Then there's no double-secret probation. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MS. CRUZ: Tom, what is an unexcused absence? MR. PALMER: Somebody doesn't call Michelle or yourself and say, "Look, I -- I can't make it next week. I'm going to be out of town." you say, "Fine, you're excused." so you're -- on the telephone. What we're talking about is people that just don't contact anybody; they just sort of disappear. Now, the question is do you want to make that automatic. Some ordinances it's automatic. Other times it's subject to basically putting an item on the Board of County Commissioners' agenda where they actually remove them by formal action. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Automatic, I think. MS. ARNOLD: Well, we have to bring it to the board's attention somehow, whether it's a letter from the chairman of the particular committee or saying that this vacancy is -- MR. FLEGAL: No. I mean, I think he's meaning automatic on the committee. In other words, I don't think we need to during a meeting have a vote, say, '~Nell, Tom hasn't showed up three times; that's -- that's telling me he's no longer a member." I think if you don't show up and they're unexcused, you're out. MR. PALMER: Well, what you do in that case is you notify the Board of County Commissioners -- MR. FLEGAL: Right. MR. PALMER: -- the fact that the person is no longer on the board, rather than do you want to remove the member because Page 89 May 7, 2001 he's missed three absences? There's a difference there. MR. FLEGAL: Right. Yeah. MR. PALMER: A lot -- some of our ordinances are automatic and you notify the board that they need a reappointment of somebody else or let them decide in the case when it's not automatic. The question is do we want to make it automatic if it's going to be three unexcused? MS. ARNOLD: It could be automatic, but we still need a letter from the chairman. MR. FLEGAL: Oh, I -- that's cool. I like that part. But I don't think the board needs to vote that, oh, yeah, she's missed three meetings, she's -- so she's out now. That's immaterial. She's missed three meetings and they're unexcused, she's gone. And then you write a letter to the board the MR. PALMER: fact -- MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: Yeah. You write a letter to the Board of County Commissioners saying, '~You are hereby notified that a seat is vacant on the PYAC.". MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. Let's not change that part of it, but let's just make it automatic on the committee. MS. BAISLEY: And it's three consecutive meetings, not -- MR. PALMER: Unexcused. CHAIRMAN PEASE: We have 30 minutes left of this meeting. MS. ARNOLD: The next change on here is removing the color scheme. MR. HYDE: Why did we do that? MR. FLEGAL: That's in the application process, isn't it? So, I mean, if we approve the application, we've automatically approved the color scheme. MS. ARNOLD: No. This is under the function of the PVAC. MR. PALMER: Yeah, right. You're talking about the 2, Page 90 May 7, 2001 what's old 2. MS. ARNOLD: MR. MS. MR. Right. HYDE: Well, I thought that's what we did. ARNOLD: Yup. HYDE: Why would we take that out? MS. ARNOLD: It was being recommended by -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: By me. My question was how -- what -- and there probably is a good explanation, but what is the safety issue related to that? MR. PALMER: It's not a safety issue. MR. HYDE: I don't think there was one. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Is it important that we regulate color schemes in general, and how does that negatively impact the customer? MS. BAISLEY: Originally all we were trying to do was make it so that the public realized the difference between this cab company's cabs and that cab company's cabs. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, if we don't regulate it right now, I could get a permit and color them yellow and, you know, they'd think their hers. MR. PALMER: That was the idea. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So if there's a problem, then you know who to go to. MS. BAISLEY: That's right. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Then let's leave that in. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. I think it does need to be approved. I mean, I could drive up in a Yellow Cab, and it just says Brown Cab Company and people aren't going to recognize the name. They're just going to see yellow and think it's a Yellow Cab. CHAIRMAN PEASE: You know, my only comment on Item No. I of 14232 is, again, the difference between taxi -- we have taxi operators now that don't use meters that call themselves Page 91 May 7, 2001 taxis in their company name in Marco, correct, Marco Island? Maybe in Naples too? I don't know. But in Marco for sure we have operators who are using a taxi name but are paying -- they're charging a per-transfer basis like a charter company. MS. HU: It's -- for example, Naples Taxi is not metered. not a metered -- it's not a taxicab business. But -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: And there's other ones, A Action. know if they're a taxi -- but they have no meters. It's I don't MS. CRUZ: Right. MS. HU: They are not a taxicab business, but they are -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do they have a permit to operate a taxi? MS. ARNOLD: No. CHAIRMAN PEASE: They have a charter. MR. PALMER: From -- from whom? The city of Marco Island CHAIRMAN PEASE: From us. MS. HU: We regulate Marco Island. MR. PALMER: What? By contract? MR. FLEGAL: I thought there was a provision in here where you weren't allowed to use the word "taxi.". MR. PALMER: If you don't operate a taxi. MR. FLEGAL: Right. MR. PALMER: That's right. MR. HYDE: Taxis have to be metered. MR. FLEGAL: I thought there was such a section in here. MS. BAISLEY: Those people were -- there's people that were grandfathered in before that provision was put into this ordinance because Maxi Taxi was in existence before that was put into this ordinance, and they still use Maxi Taxi. MR. FLEGAL: In reading all the statutes, I never read a grandfather statute but -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: And where does it say that a taxi has to Page 92 May 7, 2001 have a meter? Is it here? MS. ARNOLD: Oh, under the taxicab provisions of the ordinance, it says you've got to have a meter. MR. FLEGAL: No. But I mean, there's -- there is a section. I remember reading it. MS. BAISLEY: It's in here somewhere. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MS. HU: What do you think it states, Flegal? I believe -- because I'm remembering it does say something like that. MR. FLEGAL: There -- there is a section where it says you shall not use the word "taxi" in your -- MR. PALMER: That's right. It's about advertising. I think it's been deleted or suggested to be deleted. MS. BAISLEY: But when we approved Naples Taxi just a couple months ago, I think it was -- MR. FLEGAL: Okay. They-- MS. BAISLEY: They had a taxicab that was in existence. They showed us a picture of a taxicab. They were granted a license for a taxicab. Now they're saying they don't have one? MR. PALMER: It's on page 147 MR. FLEGAL: Well, I'm on page 16, but let me go back to page 14. MR. PALMER: Maybe that's not it. MR. FLEGAL: No. You go to page 16, Item 6, trade name. It says, "No initial certificate or subcertificate shall be issued to any business that has taxi or taxicab in its name unless it will immediately be providing taxi services." that's pretty specific. CHAIRMAN PEASE: No, it's not because -- MR. FLEGAL: A taxi service you've got to have a meter. CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's not what it says. It does not say that. It should say it right there. MR. FLEGAL: No, huh-uh, let's go back. And the definition of Page 93 May 7, 2001 a taxicab, providing taxi services that you're not a charter. taxi. I don't care where you took English. MS. BAISLEY: of a taxicab. MR. FLEGAL: services. MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: a mental genius to figure that out. CHAIRMAN PEASE: All right. allowed to operate then? MR. FLEGAL: Good question. It's a CHAIRMAN PEASE: What line? What line? On page 3 it gives you the def -- the definition Taxi services are taxi services, not charter Uh-huh. I mean, it's real specific. You don't have to be So then why are these people MS. BAISLEY: Well, I don't know. But why did we give a permit to somebody who doesn't have a taxicab? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Why did we tell -- after the last meeting why did we tell the taxi operator that said, 'rm going to become a charter company and rip them out." well, he can do that. MR. FLEGAL: Yes. CHAIRMAN PEASE: He just has to change his company name. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. to be the ABC -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Charter Company. MR. FLEGAL: -- Charter Company, he can't say ABC Taxi If it's ABC Taxi Company and he wants Because he's a charter, he can't say Company on his vehicle. anything on his vehicle. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But the only way we're going to come down on him is if we don't have any that are currently operating illegally I guess is the word. MS. ARNOLD: We do have two that have taxi in their name that are charter businesses. Page 94 May 7, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: just approved. MS. ARNOLD: MS. BAISLEY: Well, they're illegal. Well, I'm concerned about the one that we Naples Taxi. Because they never got a taxicab permit, even though they showed us a picture of what they were going to use, their color scheme and everything? They never got a permit for a taxicab? MS. CRUZ: Are you talking about Naples Taxi? MS. BAISLEY: Yes. That's the one she mentioned. MR. FLEGAL: Well, under the ordinance, you have 30 days, don't you? If you don't get it in 30 days, you're out. MS. CRUZ: Thirty days -- thirty days to come in and get your licenses --. MS. HU: Occupational license. MS. CRUZ: -- provide insurance and get all the -- MR. FLEGAL: To get your permit. MS. CRUZ: To get your permit. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. But they didn't do that ? MS. CRUZ: Yeah, they did. They got their permit. MS. BAISLEY: But not for a taxicab. MS. CRUZ: Not for a taxicab. MS. BAISLEY: But that's why we -- when they said Naples Taxi, we said okay because you have a taxicab. MS. CRUZ: Okay. I have a question. Naples Taxi, for example, they get a license -- they come in with an application for taxicab and charter service. Okay. They don't have a limit, a limit of time when they have to come in within that time frame to get taxicab permit or a charter -- they can do it at any time. MR. FLEGAL.' Okay. But if you're running a charter service, okay, under the ordinance, you can't use the word "taxi" in your company name. We haven't changed that yet. Page 95 May 7, 200t MS. CRUZ: But if he comes in -- come in -- comes in before the board and requests for a taxi service and charter service and he gets approved, he can start with a charter service vehicle and later on -- MR. FLEGAL: But not with the word "taxi" in his company name. MS. CRUZ: Well, no, because he got approved for both services. And later on he can come in and add a taxicab. CHAIRMAN PEASE: When -- when I read so and so is applying for, does it -- does it say taxi or charter? Is that what it says? MS. ARNOLD: It says both. It said -- they would indicate on there whether or not they're applying for a taxicab, a charter service, or both. And in this particular case, according to Maria, they indicated they were applying for both under the same name, and the board didn't distinct -- make a distinction in their motion and their vote that the charter portion of it couldn't use that name. MR. FLEGAL: Well, that's neither here nor there. The board can't override the ordinance. The ordinance says you can't use the word in your company name. We can't change that; we don't have that power. So if we approved him and he misled us, that's too bad. He's out of business. We don't have the power to change this (indicating); only the county commissioners do, and the county commissioners have said that you can't use the word "taxi" unless you're running a taxi, and he's not. He's running a charter. So he's illegal. MS. ARNOLD: But the thing is, the -- I guess the difficulty is, in his application, of which is what the board approved, it indicated a certain thing. And there was no exclusions of -- of the approval of that application. MR. FLEGAL: I understand what you're saying, but that still Page 96 May 7, 200t does not change it. We don't have the right to override this document. MR. PALMER: Well, he ought to have at least one taxicab. MR. HYDE: Exactly. MR. PALMER: And that taxicab requires a top light and everything else that the taxicab requires. MS. BAISLEY: Isn't there a provision in here that if you don't operate a certain class of vehicle for 30 days or something that you're automatically out of that ? CHAIRMAN PEASE: I thought so. MS. BAISLEY: I thought so too. MS. CRUZ: I believe if you don't operate a vehicle, a particular vehicle that has been licensed, and that vehicle comes out of commission for :30 days -- MS. ARNOLD: Fails an inspection. MS. CRUZ: Right. MS. BAISLEY: That's not the way I understood it. MR. PALMER: There is a provision in here, and it's being modified by this ordinance too. MS. CRUZ: And also it states that once they are approved by the board, they have 30 days to come in and obtain the rest of the permit, not necessarily the vehicle permit but the license itself; otherwise, they would have to start all over again, go back before the board. MS. ARNOLD: Right. That's what the time period pertains to, completing the application and getting that done. It doesn't -- I'm not sure if it requires -- MS. CRUZ: A vehicle use, right. MS. ARNOLD: Because we -- we do the approvals in stages. The application and the permit is issued, and then the vehicle may come in later to get the decals. MR. HYDE: Right. Page 97 May 7, 2001 MS. BAISLEY: But I always understood that if you didn't operate a certain class of vehicle for 30 days, that you lost that class of vehicle. MR. PALMER: If it's your only one, I think. It's basically like not shutting down part of your business for extended periods of time. There's -- it's in here someplace. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. But, Tom, I mean -- MR. PALMER: You know what it is, though; they're mix and match. This person's supposed to have at least one taxicab, this company that had the taxicab's name, and that taxicab must look and operate as a taxicab. MS. BAISLEY: Correct. MR. FLEGAL: But -- but if he's going to operate a charter, whether we approved it or not, he can't use the same company name with the word "taxi" because that violates the ordinance. MS. BAISLEY: Unless he has a taxicab. MR. PALMER: Unless he has at least one taxicab, then he's operating a taxi service. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So you're saying if I wanted to run a taxi operation, I went out and buy a cab, I can call it Excel Designation Management Services on the side of my cab. MR. FLEGAL: Right. MS. BAISLEY: Yes. MR. FLEGAL: But if you -- if you called it Excel Taxi Services, which is fine, because it's a taxi, then you went out and bought a black limo, called it a charter-- that MR. PALMER: MS. BAISLEY: he's done. MR. FLEGAL: MS. BAISLEY: CHAIRMAN PEASE: Only without a taxicab, you can't do that. That's right. And that's what they're saying And that's what he's doing; right? He never placed the taxi in service. That he showed us the picture of. Page 98 May 7, 2001 MS. BAISLEY.' That's correct, right? Is that what I'm -- MS. CRUZ: I'm not going to answer to that because I'm not sure if he did or not. I can't remember everything. But I keep saying there's no guidelines as to a particular vehicle. They don't have any deadline, any time frame that they have to bring in that vehicle. MR. FLEGAL: But that's okay, because in his case, he said, "I'm going to do both.". MS. CRUZ: Okay. MR. FLEGAL: But he did the wrong one first. MS. CRUZ: But he can come in before renewal, the day before renewal, and add that taxicab. MR. FLEGAL.' But right now he's in violation because he doesn't have a taxicab. MR. PALMER: It says immediately, which means if I come in with a business and I have tax -- an authorized taxi in my business, I've got to get a cab right away. MS. CRUZ: Where does it say that, Tom? MS. ARNOLD: Why does it say that? MR. PALMER: Is it at page 16 ? MR. FLEGAL: I'm going to go back. MR. PALMER: The word is "immediately.". MR. FLEGAL: Right. MR. PALMER: Yeah. Immediately-- unless it will immediately be providing taxi service. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. I mean, this is in sub 6 on page 16. MR. FLEGAL: And that's not something we're changing. That exists. MS. BAISLEY: If he didn't place the taxicab in service immediately, then he misled us, and we allowed him to use the taxi in his name. MR. FLEGAL: He's out of business. He's in violation of this Page 99 May 7, 2001 ordinance so -- MR. PALMER: The intent of this is if I want a taxicab, I look up taxicabs. I don't call up taxicabs and been told, "Oh, we don't have any taxicabs. Would you like to operate -- would you like a charter vehicle?" this is to prevent bait and switch, among other things, and misleading people from what you do. CHAIRMAN PEASE: But A Lincoln~ which operates on Marco -- no, not A Lincoln, A-Action Taxi has been approved for how many years as a charter company using the name taxi? MR. FLEGAL: Well, it's illegal. MS. HU: Just as well as A-Okay Taxi. MR. FLEGAL: That's illegal. If they don't have any taxicabs, they're out of business. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So if they have one taxicab -- MS. BAISLEY: That's fine. MR. PALMER: They're fine. MS. ARNOLD: All right. Can I go back to what you're pointing to in Subsection 6 on page 167 It says, "No certificate or subcertificate shall be issued to any business that has taxi or taxicab in its name unless it will" -- MR. FLEGAL: Immediately. MS. ARNOLD: -- "immediately provide taxi service.". MR. FLEGAL: Right. Immediately is today, not six months from now. MR. PALMER: Right away. MS. ARNOLD: Right. But it's saying that you can have taxicab and taxi in your name if you are operating immediately -- MR. FLEGAL-' A taxi service. You got to have a taxicab. MR. PALMER: At least one. That's the idea. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, it's real -- it's very plain, straightforward sentence. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's okay to confuse all the other guests Page 100 May 7, 2001 as long as they have one. MR. PALMER: No. You're supposed -- you're supposed -- MR. FLEGAL: I understand what you're saying. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I mean, does that make sense? MS. ARNOLD: Yeah, it doesn't really make sense. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What's the big deal about whether if it's one or none or twenty, if they're confusing the public on whether they're taxi or not ? MR. PALMER: Well, the question is, you're supposed to call up and have an opportunity to get taxicab service. MR. FLEGAL: See, in the phone book, let's say -- is it A- Action Taxi that doesn't have it or something? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Pick one of them, yeah. MR. FLEGAL: I go to the phone book and I look under taxicabs, and maybe he's the first listed. I say, "Hey, I need a cab. That's what I want, a taxicab.". MR. PALMER: That's right. MR. FLEGAL: And I call his number. I ain't got no taxi, Mister, you know, but for 25 bucks an hour I'll tote you around in a Lincoln. No, I want a taxicab. MR. PALMER: Right. MR. FLEGAL: Why are you here? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MR. PALMER: Advertising yourself as a taxicab. MR. FLEGAL: There he has definitely misled everybody. If he has at least one, he says, "Well, you know, my taxi's out right now." fine. He's a little mom-and-pop operation. Let me go to the next listing in the phone book. But if he doesn't have any, I as the public have violently been misled because I went to the taxis in the phone book and this guy doesn't exist. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So if it's a bait and switch based on the mechanical problems of the one cab, that's okay. Page 101 May 7, 2001 MR. FLEGAL.' Well, if the taxi's out of service, I mean, everybody gets out of service. MS. ARNOLD: I mean, we're talking about the name taxi and taxicab. What about all these other taxicab companies that don't have taxi or taxicab in their name that are now advertised as a taxicab service and they're saying they're going to be removing their -- their meters out of their vehicles and operating as a charter and they didn't get a charter license from us? You know, I mean, we're -- we're talking about the word in your title and putting somebody out of business because they have the word "taxi," which -- of which we just approved before -- and -- and they didn't mislead anything. They had it in their application. Let me ask you a question. And -- and, you know, we're -- we're kind of MR. FLEGAL: MS. ARNOLD: getting into -- MR. PALMER: taxicabs ? MS. ARNOLD: Did they say they were going to operate Yeah. They got approved for a taxicab service and a charter service. MR. PALMER: But it means immediately. It means they've got to get the taxicab going. MS. ARNOLD: But my point is, what are we -- what are we really protecting the public about? MR. FLEGAL: Okay. Let's take your comment. How many -- do you have one type of decal everybody gets? MS. ARNOLD: Yes. MS. BAISLEY: Yes. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. Why do you care on the decal whether it's a taxi or a charter? MS. ARNOLD: I didn't say I did. MR. FLEGAL: Yes, you did. You said he's changing from a taxicab to a charter and that's a diff -- that's not a different Page 102 May 7, 2001 permit or anything. It's the same decal. What he's got to do is get all the colors off his vehicle to get down to a charter. MS. ARNOLD: It is a different permit because one we regulate the rates and the other one we don't. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Which -- which is the exact point I was making about eliminating the distinction between taxi and charter because we've allowed it. It's ongoing for years, and the only difference really is the pricing structure. They're charging a transfer rate to RSW from Marco Island versus a meter, and nobody is charging meter, even Yellow Cab, even other people in town. They don't run meter to the airport. They do the same thing Marco does already. They -- but they don't have a meter, and they'll run from Point A to Point B on the island. MR. FI. EGAL: I personally -- if you have a, quote, taxicab top- light meter in it, if you're using that for anything other than a taxicab, as far as I'm concerned, that's wrong. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And the public is harmed by-- MR. FLEGAL: Misled. I mean, you know, a taxicab is a taxicab. You've got a meter. Well, that's okay. We don't care about meters. I'll charge you 20 bucks, take you anywhere you want to go. MR. HYDE: There are certain rates within the taxicab structure that they have flat fees to airports. For example, if you're charging 26.50 to go to an airport on a flat fee and I metered it, it would cost you about $43. And that's in the best interest of the community. MR. FLEGAL.' This doesn't let you do that. MR. HYDE: I know. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, they do -- yes, it does. MS. BAISLEY: That's been done since day one here. MR. FLEGAL: This ordinance doesn't let you do that. It says a taxi meter will be regulated to these rates, not -- and when you Page 103 May 7, 2001 put a person in it, you will turn the meter on, which is those rates, not the, oh, well, I'll won't turn the meter on and I'll charge you 26 bucks. MS. ARNOLD: But my question is we approved -- I'm talking about this specific business. We approved that business for both services. What is it harming the public if-- if that person operates a taxi today or tomorrow or immediately and -- and chooses to first come in and operate their charter portion of the approved permit and then later operate their taxicab? What harm is it to the public if you first -- MR. FLEGAL: The harm is the ordinance says you can't do it MS. ARNOLD: MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: MS. ARNOLD: MR. FLEGAL: I know. Until it's changed, live with it. But we're talking about -- The law says -- We are talking about changing the ordinance. It's not changed yet is the problem. MR. PALMER: Well, wait a minute. Let's -- here's what you can do: You're supposed to use your meter when you are traveling. MR. FLEGAL: Correct. MR. PALMER: These are maximum rates. There's nothing that says I can't put the meter on, tell my customer, "Look, it's going to cost you $40 for the meter. I'll take you there for $25 flat rate." but you're supposed to turn the meter on, see what the meter runs, and say, "See, the meter says $40, but I'm charging you 25, like I said." because the metered rates -- you don't have to charge the metered rates. You can charge them or charge less, but you just can't charge more. MS. ARNOLD: That's what it says. MR. PALMER: But you should have the meter operating. Page 104 May 7, 2001 Now, that may cause problems with your log and stuff. The fact of the matter is, you say meter rate, $42, charge, 25. You can do that on a manifest. MR. FLEGAL: Yes. But you got -- but I -- I'd lay money what's happening is they're not turning the meters on. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, and -- and they're -- not only are they not turning them on, but some of them they don't have meters. Again, A -- A-Okay she mentioned. I mentioned A-Action. They don't even have meters in their car. They charge flat fees, Point A to Point B. MR. PALMER: Well, that problem is they're not under our existing ordinance. I don't know how they got there, whatever the situation -- · MS. CRUZ: Tom, they started out as a taxicab company. MR. PALMER: Yeah. MS. CRUZ: And then later on they removed the taxicabs -- they removed the meter and the top light and they made these vehicles charter service. Now, are we going to ask all these people to come back before the board and make a new application under a new name ? MS. ARNOLD: Right. MS. CRUZ: You know, we got a lot of -- MR. FLEGAL: Sure. MS. CRUZ: -- companies out there that have done this. MR. FLEGAL: If they've got the word "taxi" in their name. MS. CRUZ: These are companies that have been in existing prior to me coming to these duties. I mean, they've been out there. MR. PALMER: Well, I'm not being -- I'm just saying that they - - those companies that have done what you just described are not in compliance with this ordinance. MR. FLEGAL: Right. Page105 May 7, 2001 MS. CRUZ: Okay. So are we enforcing now the fictitious name too? Are we enforcing the name also? MR. FLEGAL: Well, it's an ordinance. I mean, you don't selectively enforce the law. MS. CRUZ: That's -- that's the fictitious name or the name of the corporation that was approved. They provided the board documentation that they were authorized to use that name for that business and the -- and you approved them. MS. ARNOLD: I think that's a part of what the ordinance problem is. It doesn't -- MS. CRUZ: Right. MS. ARNOLD: -- really say what you have to do in the event you change from one type of business to another, because we do make that distinction in the ordinance. It does say you have to determine if you're a charter or if you're a taxicab, and it doesn't really tell the business what, if anything, you're supposed to do when you -- MR. FLEGAL: I disagree. MS. ARNOLD: -- change from one to another. MR. PALMER: Well, we can certainly put that in the ordinance. MR. FLEGAL: It's already there. I disagree with you. MR. PALMER: Well, I'm talking about -- let's assume this company ran five taxicabs with meters and top lights. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. Not a problem. MR. PALMER: And then put on a couple of charter vehicles. It wouldn't be a problem. The fact of the matter is they are running a bona -- a charter service and nothing but a charter service in the name of a taxicab company without either top lights or meters. MR. FLEGAL: And that's wrong. MR. PALMER: Yes. Page 106 May 7, 2001 MR. FLEGAL: Period. Don't need anything to tell you that it's wrong; it already says that. MS. ARNOLD: No. Well, we just discussed this earlier this morning with Mr. Bridenthal that was talking about ripping out his taxicab meters out of his company when we're talking about color schemes. And we told him -- we didn't say you had to come in and come in and get a different application. He has a permit right now for a taxicabs, and he has so many taxicabs registered with this department. If-- if he pulls out the meter, takes his top light off and now clarified today, paints it, you know, so it doesn't have the same decorative things on the -- the cab with the lettering, then that's all he has to do. The ordinance doesn't say you have to come and reapply showing your charter -- the number of vehicles you are operating as charter. MR. PALMER: Well, maybe we ought to clean it up. The fact of the matter is, this is from the perspective of the customer. When a customer thinks he's ordering a taxicab, he gets a taxicab. That's the point. MR. FLEGAL: Correct. MR. PALMER: He doesn't get something that calls himself a taxicab but it's a charter service. MR. FLEGAL: Well, she's -- she's got two scenarios. The first scenario is any company that has the word "taxi" in it -- MS. ARNOLD: Right. MR. FLEGAL: -- that doesn't have a taxicab out of business violating the ordinance. MR. PALMER: Or get -- or get a taxicab. MR. FLEGAL: Now, second scenario, John Joe, Inc., doesn't say taxicab, wants to change. That's really wishy washy in here. We can clarify that. But your other one where you're concerned about the word "taxicab," they're immediately in violation. They should be -- cease from existence, period, sorry. I don't care who Page 107 May 7, 2001 approved what. This is it. We, this board, can't change this (indicating). They're in violation, and there is no, quote, I'm sorry, grandfather clause. I've never found one. I've looked for it. I've read almost every page of the state statutes, and there is no such clause. MR. PALMER: I think there was a grandfather clause in here at a point in time that has subsequently dropped out. MS. BAISLEY: I -- I agree. MR. PALMER: But somewhere along the line there was one. MS. ARNOLD: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, the dilemma, if I was on the business side and I had A-Action or A-Okay Taxi and I have been approved for how many years to operate and then all of a sudden I get this letter that says I've got to limit -- change my company name, I'd be calling my attorney first thing. that MS. BAISLEY: Uh-huh. MS. ARNOLD: Because that's what we're going to be telling A-Okay Taxi that -- MR. FLEGAL: Let them call. MS. ARNOLD: -- they've got to change the vehicle names. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Why'd you approve it all those years, you know? MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: These are annual renewals, aren't they ? Yeah. Well, why don't we give somebody some reasonable period of time to either do what they're supposed to do or quit going into business? Give them eight months to do what they need to do. MS. ARNOLD: Well, they would have to because they would have to change their trade name and everything else because currently there -- they've got a business -- you know, they've applied to the state with a business name. Page 108 May 7, 2001 MR. PALMER: Well, these things can be changed over. That's not a huge thing. If I just change the name and sell it to somebody, these things get done every day. The fact is, is it sounds to me like the public thinks they're operating or hiring a taxicab, and there's nothing about it that looks like a taxicab. It doesn't have a top light; it doesn't have a meter; and it charges a flat rate. What's taxicab about it? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. What's different about, though, what they're doing on Marco and what you do probably from The Registry Resort today? That's a flat fee. MR. PALMER: That's a whole new ballgame. CHAIRMAN PEASE: They're both flat fees. MR. FLEGAL: But she has taxicabs. CHAIRMAN PEASE: So what? MR. FLEGAL: That's the name of her taxicab, and that's what she does. Bryan, let's -- let's do so what. This piece of paper says you can't do it. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm saying we're talking about changing the paper. MR. FLEGAL: SO. This ain't going to change for at least a year or CHAIRMAN PEASE: What's the difference? MR. FLEGAL: So we let them break the law because it's okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: What's the harm -- where has the public been harmed when wherein they pay a flat fee to Marco or -- and I'm not defending Marco. I'll use Naples, too, or a flat fee from Naples. Where is the public harmed by paying less money to go to the airport? MR. FLEGAL: We're not talking about less money. MR. HYDE: If you call it -- if you call it a taxicab company or you call it taxi, then it should have, according to the definitions, Page 109 May 7, 2001 a top light and a meter. MR. PALMER: Yes. MR. HYDE: Whether -- whether you charge a flat rate which is less than the metered rate or the same as the metered rate is okay. You can't charge more. MR. PALMER: But you've also got to have the meter in operation anytime you've got a customer in the cab. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Eric, what if you want to have a taxicab company and you wanted to do it and you said, "Okay, it's five bucks to Waterside; it's 10 bucks for 10 miles out; it's 20 -- 20 bucks if you go ' -- you know, it's all less than the meter, but it's all flat fee. MS. ARNOLD: I think I could eliminate the rest of the conversation by saying that we will notify Naples Taxi, and we will notify-- MR. FLEGAL: See, Bryan, you're on the wrong side. You're on the muddy side. MS. ARNOLD: And indicate to them that they need to come in because they're in violation of that section of the code, Subsection 6 of -- of that section that says that they can't have that word "taxi" in their business unless they have one taxicab. MR. PALMER: All they -- either that or get their company named what it is and it's a charter company. It's a -- it's a charter company operating as a taxicab company. MS. ARNOLD: No. They're a charter company operating as a charter company with the name "taxi." that's what's happening. MR. FLEGAL: That's illegal. MR. PALMER: All right. Just get rid of the name "taxi" and modify it -- whatever they can do. Get rid of the word "taxi.". MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. MS. HU: But to look at -- if, for example -- what is it? A- Action or one of those -- Page 110 May 7, 2001 MS. CRUZ: A-Action. MS. HU: That originally was a taxicab business and switched to a charter business. There's nowhere in the ordinance just to eliminate any problems further down the line. If we have any business doing the same thing, then we should include in the ordinance if you are originally a taxicab business and you want to change into a charter business, then you must change your name. It doesn't say anything like that in the ordinance. MR. FLEGAL: You keep mixing two things. First, if they have the name taxi in their company and they don't own a taxi, it's illegal. If you want to go from a taxi company with cabs like Bloomenthal (sic), take all that crap off, and be a charter service, that's a different thing. You should get a charter designation. MS. ARNOLD: Right. MS. HU: I understand that. All I'm saying is that maybe we should -- to avoid confusion like there has been with this particular company which originated as a taxicab company and then switched to a charter company, then we should include in the ordinance you must change your name if it includes taxi. MR. FLEGAL: Why? MS. HU: Because originally they applied as Accent Taxi. MR. FLEGAL: They're not a taxi company. MS. HU.' It -- well, they originally were a taxi company. MR. FLEGAL: They're not a taxi company. MS. HU: I understand. MR. FLEGAI.: This sentence says you must have a taxi. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Actually, we need -- actually, we need to start to wrap up. MR. FLEGAL: MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: Yeah. Uh-huh. We can put it in there, but that obligation is Page 111 May 7, 2001 clearly in this ordinance. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah, it is. I don't see your problem. MR. PALMER: Not stated in those exact words. MR. FLEGAL: If you don't have a taxi, you're illegal, period. I don't care that you switch from something. When you got rid of your last taxicab, you need to change the name of your company, period. That's what it says. That's what it's always said. MR. PALMER: Although there was a grandfather provision at a point in time, and I think it went out a couple of years ago, because I thought it was moot. But -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: Given that these people have been approved so many times, I mean, should we grandfather the ones that are already there in? MR. ARNOLD: I mean, the thing is, we haven't had any complaints with somebody calling saying -- MS. BAISLEY: The one that I'm concerned -- MS. ARNOLD: Taxi or whatever. MS. BAISLEY: The one that I'm concerned about is we just approved one who never apparently went and got a taxicab. MR. FLEGAL: Well, he's illegal, so -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: I hear you. I hear you. MR. FLEGAL: -- that's easy to solve. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And shame on me for not noticing he was applying for both. I don't know if anybody else noticed he's applying for both. MR. FLEGAL: Well, that's okay. We can't change the ordinance. We approved -- MR. PALMER: The ordinance does not say you can't have a sort of a MS. MR. MS. combination company. BAISLEY-' That's right. PALMER: As long as you are providing both services. BAISLEY: Right. Page 112 May 7, 2001 MR. PALMER: MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: once a year then. MR. PALMER: Although my recollection is -- and I didn't go through it in detail -- the city of Orlando ordinance has a lot of these requirements. For example, if you have a car -- car come and go, you got to notify them. So the city of Orlando knows what kind of cars you've got and how many of them are taxicabs and how many of them are this and how many of them are that so there is always an up-to-date clear picture of what a company is or is not. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. And we don't have any idea. MR. PALMER: We don't have any of that. I don't know whether you want to do that or you don't to want do that. But the fact of the matter is, some cities require that so that the government knows this guy's got 35 taxicabs and 65 charter vehicles. MS. BAISLEY: Why don't you have any idea? I mean, when we fill out our applications, we put those, a taxicab or a charter service vehicle? CHAIRMAN PEASE: C or T on your -- MR. PALMER: Every year? MS. ARNOLD: But that's an annual thing, and there's been changes in the interim. You know, we don't get notified -- Oh, we do bring it up to date annually. Annually. All right. So there's like a true -up at least MS. CRUZ: You know, I don't know if this is any concern of the board, but there's going to be a financial impact to some of these companies. CHAIRMAN PEASE: For something -- MR. FLEGAL: If they don't know how to read, that's their problem. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Hey, we don't know how to read. Page 113 May 7, 200t MS. ARNOLD: We obviously don't either. MR. FLEGAL: No. But we approved them based on an application saying that said they were going to go into the taxi business. MS. BAISLEY: With the first year and everything. CHAIRMAN PEASE: I understand. I think there might be a distinction between Naples Taxi and these ones that have been grandfathered in for years. MS. BAISLEY: Yeah. CHAIRMAN PEASE: They're two separate issues. That one I agree totally with Naples Transportation; I have some concerns about the ones that we've rubber stamped, approved annually, annually, year after year. MS. BAISLEY: I agree. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Wrongly, mind you, but still done and then come back, oh, yeah. By the way, now you've got to change your name and all your advertising and all your printed materials. MR. FLEGAL: Well, no, no, no. It doesn't work that way, because when they change from taxi to charter, they were automatically in violation of the ordinance because -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't -- I don't disagree with that. MR. FLEGAL: Whether we approved them or not, we don't have that power to override the ordinance. MR. PALMER: Although this language about immediately doing a taxicab service, that was put into the ordinance subsequent to the time those companies were in business. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. I would have to go back -- MR. PALMER: I know that for a fact. MS. ARNOLD: The only reason why Naples Taxi was before you-all was they changed owners, and it was a -- MR. PALMER: Transfer of ownership? MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. It was transfer of ownership, and it Page 114 May 7, 2001 was a -- it -- it kind of fell under the same category as the one on Marco with the name taxi. And I think it -- it may be unjust to treat one one way because they didn't change the ownership and treat another one another way because they came in recently and changed the ownership. MS. BAISLEY: At that time they had the opportunity to do just their name so it didn't have that word "taxi" in it if they didn't want to operate. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah. I'm saying if we're going to be treating cab companies differently, I don't think that's very -- CHAIRMAN PEASE: So where do we go from here? Does this need to be put on the July agenda for the -- for a topic for these companies? MR. PALMER: Do you want me to go ahead and amend this thing to the point where we've gotten, put everything in here that you've addressed? MR. FLEGAL: We've only done six pages. If you want to, I think you can, but do you want to do it piecemeal? Is that easier for you? MR. PALMER: No. It's actually neither here nor there. CHAIRMAN PEASE: It might be fresher in your mind in the intent if you did it now but not necessary print it all -- reprint it. MR. PALMER: What I can do is reprint you the first six pages and basically just X it out. At least we'll see where we are. CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. PALMER: And we'll go from there. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And then we'll start with -- what I would like to do is, everybody send in to who from staff -- Maria. MR. PALMER: Any changes or questions or comments? COMMISSIONER PEASE: No. Any of your vacation schedule for the month of June. We'll try and do a workshop in June. And if you have vacation plans, please send those to her so we can Page115 May 7, 2001 and try and get everybody together. It may not work, but let's try to meet in June one more time to see how much more we can get on the -- this done. MR. HYDE: What's a vacation? CHAIRMAN PEASE: And we'll start with Item 1, page 6. MS. HU: Are -- are we in agreement to include the cab, taxicab names, in the agenda for our June meeting ? CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yes. We'll put it on the agenda for the July meeting. It may come up in the workshop again. MR. HYDE: Can we also request from staff to see if there's any correspondence that they had -- I don't know -- from five years ago, four years ago where any documentation would have been for this grandfather issue? MS. ARNOLD: I would have to -- MR. PALMER: I know for a fact that there was a grandfather provision in this ordinance at one time. And I remember we dropped it out about three or four -- maybe it was '95. MS. BAISLEY: At least five years ago. MR. PALMER: Because I thought, well, that's all water under the bridge. Those are conditions now or cases now that no longer exist. But I can find the ordinance, the old one, where that was in the -- in the ordinance itself. MR. HYDE: Would there also be then a listing of the companies that were actually operating -- MR. PALMER: No. No. MR. HYDE: -- in operation ? CHAIRMAN PEASE: But you can go figure out when they apply for the permit, match that up. Thank you, everyone. I'm sorry I was late again. MR. FLEGAL: That's okay. CHAIRMAN PEASE: And I apologize. Well, I wasn't late again. I was late once, but I'll apologize again. Thank you for Page 116 May 7, 2001 your help. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 12:15 p.m. PUBLIC VEHICLE ADVISORY COMMITTEE BRYAN PEASE, CHAIRMAN TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN COURT REPORTING, INC., BY BARBARA A. DONOVAN, RMR, CRR Page117