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CLB Minutes 03/21/2001 RMarch 21, 2001 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD MARCH 21, 2001 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building F of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRPERSON: Les Dickson Robert Laird Richard Joslin Arthur Schoenfuss Sara Beth White Not Present: Daniel Gonzalez Walter Crawford, IV Carol Pahl ALSO PRESENT: Patrick Neale, Attorney for the Board Bob Nonnenmacher, Chief License Compliance Officer Paul Balzano, License Compliance Officer Michael Ossorio, License Compliance Officer Thomas Bartoe, License Compliance Officer Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney Page COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: Mamh 21,2001 TIME: 9:00 A.M. ADMINISTRATION BUILDING H USE ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDrrloNS OR DELETIONS: APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: January 24, 2001 V. NEW BUSINESS: Scott W, O'Connor - requeSt to qualify a 2"~ emily. Timothy J. Lirette - request to qualify a 2"= entity. Daniel J, Wing - request to qualify a 2r~ entity, David H Hemed - recluest to qualify a 2"~ entity. Tony Maz. zooca - request to qualify a 2r~ el~tity. John Lechle~' - request to qualify a 2r~ entity. Thomas Hazel - request to qualify a 2r~ entity. VI. OLD BUSINESS: Thomas Nathan (Nat) Drace, Jr. - request to be granted license. (he has taken exam 5 times) VII, PUBLIC HEARINGS: C.L.B. # 200t-02 William Chapin III vs Michael J. Zaccheo DIB/A Harmony Associates Corp. C.L.I~. ~ 2001-03 Collier County vs Tom Welsh D/B/A Tom Welsh Painting. John J. Morgan - Contesting Citation # 0850 for doing work with no license, VIII, REPORTS: IX, DISCUSSION: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: April 18, 2001 March 2t, 2001 MR. DICKSON: I call to order the Collier County Contractors' Licensing Board, March 21st, 2001. Any person who decides to appeal the decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings pertaining thereto, and, therefore, may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made, which record includes that testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based. I'd like to start with roll call on my right. MR. LAIRD: Bob Laird, public member. MR. DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Arthur Schoenfuss. MS. WHITE: Sara Beth White. MR. DICKSON: Just a brief introduction, our chairman, Gary Hayes, is out of the country. We have some other members that are out of town today. I will apologize up front if you notice me pushing, but we have a full slate, and in order to get through this today, we're going to have to push. Not that we're going to cut anything short at the same time, but maybe some of the rhetoric or redundancy could be held to a minimum. Any additions or deletions to the minutes? MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes, good morning, Mr. Chairman. MR. DICKSON: If not, do I have -- oh, I'm sorry, you do. MR. NONNENMACHER: For the record, my name is Bob Nonnenmacher, chief licensing compliance officer. Under public hearings, C.L.B. 2001-02 is being deleted. The complainant withdrew his charge. I place before you a letter, a notarized letter from the complainant. MR. DICKSON: Okay. Anything else, Mr. Nonnenmacher? MR. NONNENMACHER: No, sir. MR. DICKSON: Okay. Do I have a motion to approve -- MR. LAIRD: Mr. Chairman, I move for the approval. MR. JOSLIN: I second the motion. MR. DICKSON.' All those in favor? Any approval of minutes, any amendments to the minutes? If not, could I have a motion to approve them? MR. SCHOENFUSS: I so approve -- I so move. MR. JOSLIN: Second. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor? We're moving right along. Page 2 March 2t, 2001 New business, request to qualify second entity. Scott O'Connor, are you present? Would you please come forward, please? Need to have you sworn in, please. (Mr. O'Connor was sworn in by the court reporter). MR. DICKSON: Mr. O'Connor, just tell us briefly -- we do have your packet, but tell us what you're doing, what company you qualify now and why you're qualifying the new one. MR. O'CONNOR: My name is Scott O'Connor. I'm qualifying -- I am a certified carpenter in Collier County. I qualify that company for my own self. I'm also the manager, the general manager of a company known as STC Surface Technology Corporation. It has recently come to my attention that we have been asked to qualify this company, so I'm going through those proceedings. MS. WHITE: What's the -- MR. DICKSON: Go ahead. MS. WHITE: What's the name of the company that's been qualified? Is that Surface Technique (sic)? MR. O'CONNOR: Scott O'Connor. MS, WHITE: Oh, it's Scott O'Connor. MR. O'CONNOR: That's correct. MR. DICKSON: Did we approve -- remember that form we had from Lee County? MR. NONNENMACHER: That's under discussion, under agenda, sir. MR. DICKSON: Okay. MR. NONNENMACHER: That also has been provided -- I believe it's the last page in your packet. MS. WHITE: Is Philip Lacey the owner of Surface Technology; is that right? MR. O'CONNOR: He is one of the owners. He is the majority owner, yes. MR. DICKSON: What I'm looking for, Mr. O'Connor, do you have any control over the operations of the company to what you're qualifying? MR. O'CONNOR: Yes, I do all the hiring and firing. I'm the general manager of our office here in Fort Myers. There's a corporate office, which is in St. Petersburg. MR. SCHOENFUSS: I don't see anything listed under item Page 3 March 21,200t nine on the application relating to other business of which you've been associated. MR. O'CONNOR: I don't have that in front of me. MR. DICKSON: It's a common mistake. We see it on a lot of them. Basically, the company you have right now would fall under that. MR. O'CONNOR: That is correct. MR. DICKSON: And that is? MR. O'CONNOR: Scott W. O'Connor. MR. DICKSON: No others? MR. O'CONNOR: No, sir. MR. DICKSON.' Does staff have any objections? MR. NONNENMACHER: No. MR. SCHOENFUSS: I don't see anything wrong with it. The application looks to be in good order. MR. DICKSON: Is that a motion? MR. SCHOENFUSS: I move that the petition be approved. MR. LAIRD: I will second that. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor? So moved. Congratulations. I will tell you, staff will have all the files here today, so you can't do this today. MR. O'CONNOR: Right. I already had that conversation, but thank you. Will you need me for anything further this morning? MR. DICKSON: No, sir, you're excused. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, if I may, I'd like to make that statement. Anyone that is here to qualify a second entity, if it is approved, you will not be able to do that today since we have all your files here. It will have to be done tomorrow, because the files won't get back until late in the evening. Thank you. MR. DICKSON.' You bet. Next up, Timothy Lirette, if I'm saying it correct? MR. LIRETTE: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: Lirette is correct? MR. LIRETTE: Yes. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Lirette, I need to have you sworn in, Page 4 March 21, 2001 MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. request. please. (Mr. Lirette was sworn in by the court reporter). MR. DICKSON: Same scenario, who do you qualify, who are you qualifying, and why are you doing it? MR. LIRETTE: I'm here to qualify LP Group, a quality flooring specialist, and I am Lirette Specialized Flooring myself, the one that I have originally that's going to qualify the other, and what I'm doing is I'm an installation company myself right now, and I'm opening a new business like as in a retail store with a partner, so I need to open a second company up because I'm going to have a partner involved. So, I need to qualify that too for installations. MR. DICKSON: That answers my third question, do you have any control, which you, obviously, do if you're a partner. MR. LIRETTE: Yes, I do, yes. DICKSON: I notice also that you are a director. LIRETTE: Yes. DICKSON: Nice credit report, Mr. Lirette. LIRETTE'. Excuse me? DICKSON: Nice credit report. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I move that we grant this man's MS. WHITE: Second. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor? Wow, you're approved. These are flying. Congratulations. Do well. They are easy if everything is in order. Daniel Wing, are you present? MR. WING: Yes, I am. MR. DICKSON: Please come forward, sir. Need to have you sworn in, please. (Mr. Wing was sworn in by the court reporter). MR. DICKSON: Who do you qualify, who are you wanting to qualify, and why? MR. WING: Well, I presently qualify Out of the Woods of Naples, Incorporated. I'm a B contractor, and I want to qualify Architectural Complements, Incorporated. MR. DICKSON: You're a what contractor, I'm sorry? MR. WING: I'm a B contractor, a registered building contractor. Page 5 March 21,200t MR. DICKSON: Okay, B. And who is Architectural Components (sic), and why are you wanting to qualify them? MR. WING: That's Architectural Complements, Incorporated, and the reason being is I'm a cabinetry and molding installer, and what we've been asked to do more than anything is a lot of extra work that requires a general contractor's license, and that is why I would like to do that. I also control all the hiring and firing and day-to-day operations. MR. DICKSON: Is it a corporation or -- MR. WING: It's an incorporation, yes, sir. MR. SCHOENFUSS: I'm confused. The name of the firm on the application and the name of the firm on item nine are the same. MR. DICKSON: Yeah. MR. SCHOENFUSS: The company you're now qualifying before you want to qualify Architectural Complements is what? MR. WING: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, sir. MR. SCHOENFUSS: You want to qualify Architectural Complements? MR. WING: Yes, Incorporated. MR. SCHOENFUSS: And what is the firm you are now qualifying, other than that? MR. WING: The corporation I now qualify is Out of the Woods of Naples, Incorporated. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Oh, I see. I just didn't find that on the form. Thank you. MR. DICKSON: I think that number nine is a trick question, and we see who gets it right. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Maybe we ought to change the form. People keep doing that wrong. MR. BALZANO= We have a new one. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Oh, you have a new one. MR. JOSLIN: What does a little bit of everything include? MR. WING: A little bit of everything, well, generally, changing of electrical situations, changing of plumbing situations, depending on the cabinetry installations, so, therefore, I can hire subcontractors. Page 6 March 21, 2001 MR. SCHOENFUSS.' When you say changing electrical situations, what do you change in the way of electrical situations? MR. WING: Well, sometimes when you go into a situation, sometimes the electrical is roughed in just to gain -- you know, if you go into a condo and there are any changes that have to be made in terms of the decoration or the interior design, I hire plumbers, electricians, et cetera, to change lighting situations. They may wish to have their lighting changed according to their specific needs of the client, and you cannot do that, perform those services under a carpentry subcontractor. It has to be a licensed contractor, you know, B or A contractor. MR. SCHOENFUSS: But you have been doing that? As a carpentry contractor, you have been subcontracting to other -- MR. WING: No, you cannot. You cannot. You can't pull permits, you know. That's why I maintain two different licenses. MR. SCHOENFUSS: It sounds as if this gentleman has had some problems in the past and he's on the right track trying to do it now. MR. DICKSON: Yeah, and he's got a good credit report. I don't know why he included the credit report of his partner, which does have some problems. It doesn't really come into play. I assume Diogenes is your partner? MR. WING: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: You're the one we look to, and you're the one we come to if we have a problem. MR. WING: I have no problem with that at all. MR. DICKSON-' Any further questions? MR. SCHOENFUSS: I move we accept this application. MR. JOSLIN: Second. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor, say aye. So approved. MR. WING: Thank you very much. MR. DICKSON: You bet. Do well. I'm forgetting here, Mr. Nonnenmacher, to ask county if they have any objections or any complaints or anything. If you'll please just jump in. MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: Next up, David Hemed. Page 7 March 21~ 2001 MR. HEMED.' Sir. MR. DICKSON: Am I saying that correct? MR. HEMED: Yes, you are. MR. DICKSON: Boy, I'm shooting -- batting a thousand today. Need to have you sworn in, Mr. Hemed. (Mr. Hemed was sworn in by the court reporter). MR. DICKSON: Mr. Hemed, welcome, and same scenario, who do you qualify now, who are you wanting to qualify and why? MR. HEMED: I currently qualify Custom Built Screen Enclosures of Lee County. MR. DICKSON: Guess what, you got number nine correct. Okay, go ahead. MR. HEMED: And the company that I'm applying to qualify is Stormtech Shutters, Incorporated, of which I'm 51 percent partner with my brother. The main reason for wanting to open a second company is mainly for marketing as well as accounting purposes. Since we are a screen enclosure company as custom built, people typically don't look for that type of product from a screen enclosure company, and, therefore, we decided for marketing reasons, mainly, to open a second company. MR. DICKSON: You like that new Florida building code, don't you? You guys are going to do well. What is it; October I now? MR. HEMED.' Yeah, they moved it to October. It was going to be in July, but they pushed it back. I don't think they're going to be done with all the code changes in time. MR. DICKSON: Yeah. You know, I'd hate to put my credit report up against these last four people. They don't even have a past due of 30. Jacob is your brother? MR. HEMED: Yes, he is. MR. DICKSON: Your credit report is better than Jacob's. MR. HEMED: Yes. MR. DICKSON.' What do you say? MR. LAIRD: I so move for approval. MR. DICKSON: And a second? MR. SCHOENFUSS: Second. MR. DICKSON: All in favor? Page 8 March 21, 2001 MR. HEMED: Thank you. MR. DICKSON: Do well. Next up -- oh, man, here goes my average -- Tony Mazzocca. MR. MAZZOCCA: It was close, Mazzocca. MR. DICKSON: Excuse me, I put an "A' instead of an 'O'. Mr. Mazzocca, I need to have you sworn in, please. (Mr. Mazzocca was sworn in by the court reporter). MR. DICKSON: I need to know -- we need to know who you qualify now, who you're wanting to qualify and your reason. MR. MAZZOCCA: Right now, I'm Buff Installations, and I'm qualifying Ralto. MR. DICKSON: What's the company you now have? MR. MAZZOCCA: Buff Installations. MR. DICKSON: North. MR. MAZZOCCA: Excuse me? MR. DICKSON: The company -- I didn't -- MR. MAZZOCCA: Buff Installations. MR. DICKSON: What type of work is that? MR. MAZZOCCA: Tile and marble. MR. DICKSON: And you're wanting to qualify Ralto Corporation? MR. MAZZOCCA: Yes. MR. DICKSON: Tell me your reason. MR. MAZZOCCA: Right now, it says Buff Installations has existing accounts which are mine, and my partners are coming in with other accounts, so we want to start those up in a separate company more than anything else. MR. DICKSON: And the setup of the corporation, you're treasurer?. MR. MAZZOCCA: Yes, I am. MR. DICKSON: Are they out of Atlanta? MR. MAZZOCCA: No. MR. DICKSON: No, okay. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I so move that we grant Mr. Mazzocca his request. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Second. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor?. Good luck. MR. MAZZOCCA: Thank you. MR. DICKSON: Tell you what, guys, these are just flying Page 9 March 21, 2001 through here. Normally, they don't go like this. MR. LAIRD: Well, the reports are all in order. MR. DICKSON: The reports are good. Credit reports are good. Everything is together. I compliment Judy or whoever on these packets. MR. BALZANO.' Maggie. MR. DICKSON: Maggie? Tell her we're just flying through them. John Lechler, or is it Lechler? MR. LECHLER: Lechler. You got it right the first time. MR. DICKSON: Need to have you sworn in, Mr. Lechler. (Mr. Lechler was sworn in by the court reporter). MR. DICKSON'. Who do you qualify now, who are you wanting to qualify and your reasons? MR. LECHLER: I qualify Florida Bay Homes, Inc. right now. I want to qualify J. M. Lechler Company. The reasons are somewhat complicated, but -- my partner -- I have a partner who owns 50.5 percent of the company now. He's a non-resident of the country. He's here on a work visa. His work visa is tied to Florida Bay Homes. He has elected not to acquire any more work for Florida Bay Homes because he has formed another construction company, which ! think is totally wrong, as any officer of a construction company, other than the qualifier, can go form as many construction companies as they want and be in direct competition, and there's nothing to keep them from doing that. I think they ought to have to go through the same process that the qualifier goes through to qualify a second -- anyway, be that as it may, the work for Florida Bay Homes is coming to a halt, and I've got to get another construction company going so that I can continue to work. MR. DICKSON: What are you going to do with your qualification of Florida Bay Homes? MR. LECHLER: Well, if I elect to pull my license from Florida Bay Homes, then he can pretty much get another qualifier in there and continue Florida Bay -- continue with Florida Bay Homes, which I've worked hard to -- which I've worked hard for for the last eight years, and I don't particularly want him to have that luxury, to be honest with you. MR. DICKSON.' But you do have homes under construction right now? Page 10 March 21,200t MR. LECHLER: I have two, correct. MR. DICKSON: So, if you pull that qualification, it would pull those permits, wouldn't it? MR. NONNENMACHER: It would give the company 60 days to get a new qualifier and not being able to pull any new permits, but continue to work on the two that are outstanding for 60 days. MR. DICKSON: Well, that's not our concern. That's between you and your partner. MR. LECHLER: Correct. MR. DICKSON: But I understand what you're doing. So, let's look at Mr. Lechler. You got number nine right, too. MR. SCHOENFUSS: What's the difference between the new J. M. Lechler Company and John M. Lechler Builder, Inc.? MR. LECHLER: John M. Lechler Builder, Inc. was a construction company that I had up until 1993. MR. SCHOENFUSS: And it's no longer in existence as such? MR. LECHLER: Correct. MR. SCHOENFUSS: And the new company is not a corporation? MR. LECHLER: Yes, it is. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Oh, it is, okay. MR. DICKSON: It would be J. M. Lechler Company, Inc.? MR. LECHLER: Well, it's a corporation, but the name is actually just J.M. Lechler Company, but it is a Florida corporation. MR. DICKSON: May -- well, I won't go where the counselors go. I've always been advised, if you don't advertise that you're a corporation, you don't get the privileges of a corporation; is that correct, Counselor? MR. NEALE: Well, if it says company, in Florida, you can inc., limited or company, and all of them will fit under the statute. MR. DICKSON: Oh. It has nothing to do with this, but I was just looking at the protection issue. MR. SCHOENFUSS: I move that Mr. Lechler's application be approved. MR. JOSLIN: Second. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor? So approved. I hope you do well. Page 11 March 21, 2001 MR. LECHLER: Thank you very much. MR. DICKSON: You bet. Thomas Hazel. Need to have you sworn in, Mr. Hazel. (Mr. Hazel was sworn in by the court reporter}. MR. DICKSON: Same question, who do you qualify now, who you're going to do and why? MR. HAZEL: I'm qualifying Napier Sprinklers right now. I've been working for them for quite a while, and I'd like to qualify myself to go out on my own. We've got a lot of overflow work. I've been working with it, and there's a chance for me to start my own business. He's willing to help me out, get me started with his overflow work, and I've always wanted to have my own business. MR. DICKSON: Sure. How long have you been qualifying Napier? MR. HAZEL: Since November of 2000. MR. JOSLIN: Just curious, what -- if you leave as a qualifier for Napier, you're not going to qualify for the company any longer?. MR. HAZEL: MR. JOSLIN: MR. HAZEL: MR. JOSLIN: Excuse me? Are you still going to qualify Napier? Yes, sir. You are. MS. WHITE: Where's Lotus Tropical Gardens? MR. HAZEL: MS. WHITE: MR. HAZEL: here in Naples. MS. WHITE: Oh, it's here in town? MR. HAZEL: Yes, ma'am. MR. DICKSON: You had some trouble back in '98 and '99, didn't you? out. Where? Uh-huh. It's 1055 Pompei Lane is their address, but it's MR. HAZEL: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: Credit problems? MR. HAZEL: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: I don't see anything since then. MR. HAZEL: I've been trying to get everything straightened MR. DICKSON: A deed in lieu, I assume the bank got their money, so they're happy? Page 12 March 21, 2001 MR. HAZEL: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: It takes seven years to get that stupid thing off of there. MR. HAZEL: MR. JOSLIN: this request. Yeah, I know it. Mr. Chairman, I'll move that we grant Mr. Hazel MR. LAIRD: I second that. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor? Hope you do very well. MR. HAZEL: Thank you. MR. DICKSON: Best of luck to you. Old business, Thomas Drace, Jr., request to be granted a license. Thomas, are you here? MR. DRACE: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: If you'll come forward, please. I don't know that -- yeah, we do have your packet, don't we? Need to have you sworn in, Mr. Drace. (Mr. Drace was sworn in by the court reporter). MR. DICKSON: Need for you to fill us in. You were here before, correct? MR. DRACE: I was here before. I hold a drywall, metal framing license, business license. I had taken the plastering license four times at that time and had not been able to get through it, and at that point, I requested that I be granted a license without it because the test, in my opinion, was outdated and unfair. You asked me at that time to get some letters together from people that can test my -- the fact that I knew stucco or stuff like that, which I had done, and in the meantime, I took the test one more time and I had just gotten the result back a week ago Monday. I still don't make it. I got a 70 on it, hut I didn't make it. MR. DICKSON: That was your high score, wasn't it? MR. DRACE: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: Did you go get some -- one of those prep courses? MR. DRACE: Well, that's what I said, they do not hold one for that. They don't hold a class for that. MR. DICKSON: So, you're at a 70 now? MR. DRACE: Yes. Page 13 March 21, 2001 MR. DICKSON: Your business and law you did okay on? MR. DRACE: All that I passed the first time. MS. WHITE: Mr. Drace, I'm looking at the scores that we got. I don't think they're in this packet. This was the last time that we saw you here. Business and law, you had an 82, so that was okay. Drywall, 78, that's okay. So, it's just -- it's the plastering you've taken the fifth time, and this time you got a 70 on, am I correct? MR. DRACE: Yes, ma'am. MR, DICKSON: When you say it doesn't apply, I don't remember, do you? MS. WHITE: Pardon? MR. DRACE: I say it's outdated, the test itself. In fact, I think you guys had made the -- said something about looking into the test to see if the questions that were being asked on the test were relevant. I mean, some of them are relevant to what we do, but there's a lot of questions in there that aren't relevant to what we do, and the test should be updated, in my opinion, because there's a lot of surface work type stuff done now that the test asked nothing about, which is exterior installation, finish systems and stuff, and all these -- all your -- every building just about uses that now, but then we go back to stuff like on a veneer tape, which I kind of --they put part of the drywall and part of the plastering into that same test, and they go back into the whole rock lathe and stuff, which hadn't been used for years and years and years. One of the things that I had brought up was they asked you questions about stapling veneer tape, which is a sticky tape, to -- what the spacing is between staples, and it's not -- you don't do that anymore. I mean, that's been done away with for probably ten years or more. I know the stucco business. I just can't get through this test. MS. WHITE: Mr. Drace, did you take the crash course or whatever it is to prepare you for it this fifth time? MR, DRACE: That's what I'm saying, they do not offer a course for this. MS. WHITE: Oh, they don't? MR. DRACE: No. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, if I may, staff has Page 14 March 21, 2001 gone over the letters of recommendation, the references, and they all check out~ and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe the last time Mr. Drace was here, it was a matter of getting these references in order to approve under the auspice of testing being superfluous. He did what the board asked him to do. Mr. Ossorio checked out the references, called them up to make sure that they were valid references and that the people who signed those agreed with what they said, and he came back in the affirmative that his references were valid. MR. DICKSON: Yeah, and to be honest with you I'm impressed with Mr. Drace, because I've been on this board almost ten years now, and I can't remember someone who's taken the test so many times, come to a board meeting, been told to do two things, which we said the letters and try the test one more time, and he did all of that, and I don't have a problem with 70. I don't know how the rest of the board feels. MR. NONNENMACHER: In most counties, the passing score is 70, not that we would want to set a precedence that anybody who gets a 70, we lower our standards, but I think there are extenuating circumstances here. MR. DICKSON: I think the precedent we would set, if someone else wants to come take the test that many times, spend this much time trying to get his license, coming back and forth to the board, that we would -- MR. NEALE: There's a specific provision in the ordinance under 22-184, subsection C, where it says, when an application is referred to the contractor licensing board, the board shall take testimony from the applicant and consider other relevant evidence regarding whether the application meets the requirements of this division, and then skipping down it says, the board may consider the applicant's relevant recent experience in the specific trade, and based upon such experience, may waive testing requirements if convinced that the applicant is qualified by experience, whereby such competency testing would be superfluous. So, that's where the board is. The board does, as it normally does, have to issue findings of fact and conclusions of law that the board has found that -- MR. DICKSON.' We do have to go through that? MR. NEALE.' Well, you can do it in a short form, just that the Page 15 March 21, 2001 board found that based upon the affidavits set forth, that further testing would be superfluous for Mr. Drace, if that's the board's pleasure, so -- MR. SCHOENFUSS: Well, I think we're -- MR. LAIRD: I grant that -- MR. SCHOENFUSS: -- right back to where we were in January. We have a gentleman here who's obviously qualified by experience, and we'd certainly be doing him an injustice if we didn't accept his application. He has made an excellent presentation, but the minute we do, we're setting a precedent, and we're saying that anybody that can present a case that he's thoroughly qualified but didn't pass the test, we've got to go through the same procedure and accept that other applicant that comes in next, but just in the interest of being fair to -- in the interest of being fair to Mr. Drace, we've got to recognize the fact that in the future we may have to go through this again and again and again with other applicants. MR. NEALE: It's something this board has confronted in the past and it has come down on both sides, depending on the level of experience the persons display. Mr. Drace has gone forward and actually completed the affidavits as required under the ordinance, so -- MR. SCHOENFUSS: Well, let's go ahead and approve this and just recognize that we may have to listen to some other people that come up in the future with similar circumstances. I move we approve it. MR. LAIRD: I will second that. MR. DICKSON: Do we need to amend that? MR. NEALE: Yeah, make a finding that based -- let me further explain, that based upon the evidence presented by Mr. Drace and his testimony and the affidavits put forth, that Mr. Drace's relevant, recent experience is such that testing requirements are waived, and that as a matter of law, Mr. Drace may be granted his license without fulfilling the testing requirements based upon the experience. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Let's put all of that into the motion. MR. LAIRD: And I will second that. MR. DICKSON: We verbatim you. MR. NEALE: Yes. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor? Page 16 March 21, 2001 Mr. Drace, you're an honorable man. You should do well. I wish you luck. MR. DRACE: I thank you very much, and I will make you this promise, I will continue taking this test until I pass it, between now and the end of the year. I appreciate it. MR. DICKSON: Hope you do well. Public hearings. Collier County versus Tom Welsh, doing business as Tom Welsh Painting. Is Mr. Welsh present? No? MR. OSSORIO: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Michael Ossorio, for the record, for Collier County building permit. Unfortunately, Mr. Welsh is not going to be here until about 10:00, 10:15. We assumed that this wouldn't take as short as it did, so we can bypass it and come back to it in the future, around ten o'clock. MR. DICKSON: See what happens when someone else sits here, we go. Being that case then, let's go on to John Morgan, contesting a citation for doing work without a license. Mr. Morgan, are you present? I assume you're being represented by counsel? MR. MORGAN: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON.' My understanding is, since counsel is an officer of the court, he does not have to be sworn in, am I correct? MR. ROWLAND: That is correct. I'm sworn to tell the truth at all times. MR. DICKSON'. But if your client testifies, I do need to have him sworn in. MR. ROWLAND: Basically, what I'd like to do -- actually, first of all, my name is Scott Rowland, R-O-W-L-A-N-D. I'm with the law firm of Cardillo, Keith & Bonaquist. I represent Mr. Morgan in this case. What I'd like to do is give you a brief rundown of the overall facts. I'll have Mr. Morgan testify, and then my understanding is Mr. Ossorio is going to put on Ms. Adams as a witness. MR. NEALE.' And if I may, just for the board's information and for Mr. Rowland's information, these types of hearings are held pursuant to our Ordinance 22-202, which is under disciplinary proceedings, and these are for a violation order which has been issued, and the hearing is conducted under Page 17 March 21, 2001 Section 162.07 of Florida Statutes wherein the board can -- hears the item on the agenda and must issue findings of fact based on the record and conclusions of law and issue an order. On this matter, the citation itself is issued under 489.127 as adopted in the Collier County ordinance, and the person who is charged with the violation must show that the citation is invalid or that the violation has been corrected prior to appearing before the board, and if they do so prove that, they may dismiss this citation unless the violation is irreparable or irreversible. The person cited with this violation is deemed to be charged with a non-criminal violation. If the board finds that this violation exists, the enforcement or licensing board may order the violator to pay a civil penalty of not less than the amount set forth on the citation, but not more than $1,000 per day for each violation. In determining the amount of the penalty, the enforcement or licensing board shall consider the following factors, the gravity of the violation, actions taken by the violator to correct the violation and any previous violations committed by the violator. So, those are the general ground rules, if anyone has any questions. MR. ROWLAND: I don't have any questions. Actually, I have a handout for everybody~ if I may approach to pass this out. MR, DICKSON: Sure. MR. ROWLAND: Basically what's happened in this case is, Mr. Morgan is a handyman. He's been a handyman for probably 45 years off and on. He's been in Collier County for about 20 years. Now, he's had prior dealings with Ms. Adams, who's sitting over there, and she'll explain that to everybody. He was hired by her originally to do some maintenance work in her condo unit, to fix a garbage disposal~ something like that. His normal hourly rate is $65 an hour. He charged her a reduced rate of 35 because he considered her a friend. Because he did such a good ]ob, she asked him to come back. Now, she is -- she may no longer be the current -- the president, but she was at the time she hired him, the president of El Capistrano Condo Association. So, she's not -- she is in full control of her faculties, and she was elected by the members of the Page 18 March 21, 2001 condominium. Mr. Morgan came out, and she had a problem with her sprinkler system, and said, oh, it's not working. So, he took a look at it, and basically, he had to change a couple little heads on it, probably $200 worth of work, no big deal, and that was that. She then said, oh, well, we're having a problem over here. We're losing all our dirt. The dirt is getting washed away by the rain. Can we put in some rock or can we put in some wood, a wood border to stop that? Well, sure, he told her yes, I can do that. I can put in some wood right there and that should stop it. She said, oh, okay, go ahead and do that. So, he put in some wood, no big deal. This is all under a thousand dollars, time and materials, and then he was done. He could have billed her at that point, but he didn't. He considered her a friend. And then she asked him, well, this looks really good, and everybody in the condo association was coming by and seeing this and thought, wow, everything looked great. Why don't you run the wood down a little further? Okay, I can do that. So, he puts in some more wood. Oh, that looks so wonderful, now we have to do the same thing on the other side of the parking lot, so she makes him bring it out around the planters and then a little further over. Now, this is not a big condo. This is a three-story condo. I don't know how many units it has in it, but it's not very large. He was done at that point. They then decided they wanted mulch or rock. They couldn't make up their mind which. He said, well, I can probably put that in for you, but it's not a ma]or undertaking because this is a pretty small condo. At first they wanted mulch. That was fine. Then they decided they wanted rock. Okay, no big deal. So, he's trying to find rock for them and what do they want, and they decided what they want, so -- he had it delivered for them, and it wasn't a large amount. It says on here 22 tons of rock, but it wasn't all at once. It was, put some rock in here. Oh, we really like it. Let's put some more rock in over here, change the rock around. He could have billed her at each stage. This is probably 11 or 12 different jobs over the course of 12 days during which time he was not working at any other job. He was just working for Page 19 March 21, 2001 her. When the job was over with, he gave her this bill, and he realized at the time that it was kind of high. He was a little shocked that all this time had been put in, so he reduced it. He reduced his hourly rate to $55 an hour and took some off the bill, and she said to him at the time, wow, I didn't -- I hope we have enough money for this. Well, you know, he didn't think much of it. He thought maybe she was just kidding, but then she couldn't pay. Mr. Morgan then came to our office, and we filed a notice of lien against the condo association. Actually, in retaliation, it seems as if she went to Mr. Ossorio, and I feel like he's kind of been a pawn in this. She goes to him as this poor little old lady that has been taken advantage of by this mean person, when in reality, what's happened is, she was the president of the association who hired him to do these little jobs that added up, and now she has to answer to her neighbors because they can't afford to pay the bill. So, their way of solving this problem was to come over here to Mr. Ossorio and have Mr. Morgan write a ticket and found to be contracting without a license, because as you probably know, there's a statute in Florida that says, if you've entered into a contract with somebody who doesn't have a contractor's license, then that contract is not enforceable, and that's their way out of this. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, if I may, I'm going to object. Counsel is actually testifying in front of his client. I think that's closing statement arguments. Now the client knows exactly how to testify and what the story is. There's more than hearsay. He's testifying for the complainant as to what she said. MR. NEALE.' Mr. Nonnenmacher, if I may, what he's doing is making an opening statement. The normal procedure of these hearings is opening statements by both sides. Then testimony is taken, and then closing arguments. So, if he's making an opening statement, it's not a problem. He's going to call witnesses to testify to this, I assume. MR. ROWLAND: Yes. MR. NEALE: So, he's making an opening statement. MR. NONNENMACHER.' Again, I will rely on you, but I think that's testimony that he's giving rather than an opening statement. Page 20 March 2t, 2001 MR. NEALE: Well, he's making an opening statement. He has to back it up with testimony, if he doesn't back it up with testimony, then -- MR. DICKSON: And I kind of like it because it's defining our path we're going to take in a little bit. MR. NEALE.' Certainly, you know, the County will have the opportunity to make their own opening statement, so the process of the hearing is always the same. MR. DICKSON: Go ahead, Mr. Rowland. MR. NONNENMACHER: I respect your decision. My objection stands. MR. ROWLAND: Real quick, I'll finish up, and then I'll let Mr. Ossorio make an opening statement if he would like, and I'll have Mr. Morgan testify. With the handout I've given out, if you look at the front, it's Florida Statute Chapter 489. If you'll turn to the green tab on 196, this is Chapter 489, Section 103, Subsection 9, any work or operation of a casual, minor or inconsequential nature in which the aggregate contract price for labor, materials and all other items is less than a thousand dollars is an exemption. So, 103 deals with exemptions. This is kind of a handyman exemption, all right. Now, it does say that if this is part of a larger or ma]or operation, then it doesn't apply, but our argument is that it isn't part of a larger operation. These were small projects that he didn't bill her for after each one because he considered her a friend and had done work for her before. And Part B says, if the person advertises that he or she is a contractor, then it wouldn't apply, and he has never held himself out as a contractor. If you look at his bill, which is Tab B, it says Mister Fix-It Handyman Service. It does not say anything about being a contractor. Now, Mr. Morgan's biggest mistake was not issuing a bill after each of these projects. He issued one big bill at the end, and that was what Mr. Ossorio has gone on through this whole thing, that this was one major project, and that he was not licensed to do these things, but I would point you again to 489.103, Subsection 9, I think it applies here, and Mr. Morgan will testify that each of his jobs did not, including materials and time involved, did not exceed a thousand dollars. Page 21 March 21,200t I have nothing further right now. MR. DICKSON: Okay. County, would you like to make an opening statement, please? MR. OSSORIO: Yes, Mr. Chairman. For the record, Michael Ossorio with the Collier County licensing permit. Just a quick overview is that we relied on bills from Mr. Morgan himself in the amount of $9,371 and in no reference does it say that he's done work A, B or C and this -- one little bill. Two is that we got a copy of his occupational license affidavit saying that he will not do this kind of work, landscaping, plumbing, et cetera, et cetera, and third, if you look on E-3, he's done work in the past, and it appears that -- MR. DICKSON: Look on where? MR. OSSORIO: Yes, E-1. Mr. Dickson, you're a plumber. MR. BALZANO: Mr. Dickson is a roofer. MR. OSSORIO: Oh, yeah, you're a roofer, I remember. MR. DICKSON: Hang on, let us stay with you. MR. JOSLIN: E-l? MR. OSSORIO: Yeah. MR. DICKSON: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: And it says pool bathrooms, two, install two fill valves, install two flapper valves, install two handles, et cetera, et cetera. Under state statute, that is a licensed plumber, because it's dealing with potable water, but we did not issue one for plumbing, but he has done work in the past. So, this shows the record that he is a handyman, but he believes he's acting out of the capacity of a handyman license, so 489 would not apply. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like you to take a look at the actual contract. Job work order date is 1/11/01. MR. DICKSON: Where are you? MR. NONNENMACHER: On the Mister Fix-It Handyman Service contract. MR. DICKSON: Okay. MR. NONNENMACHER: The date in the right-hand corner is 1/11/01. This whole job -- I take it this contract was discussed with the complainant on that date. Down at the bottom, he Page 22 March 2t, 2001 received a deposit on 1/12/01 for the amount of $1,000. I submit that this ]ob was contracted all at one time, not do some rocks here today and do some mulch here tomorrow. If you look at his itemized bill on the next page, he didn't order a half a ton of rocks. He ordered 22 tons of rocks all at one time. I believe this shows that this was not a daily contractual item. This was a contract done all at once in the amount of $9,371, which is way over the thousand dollar limit of the handyman exemption. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Rowland, it's back in your court. MR. ROWLAND: Thank you. Mr. Morgan. MR. DICKSON: I need to have your client sworn in. (Mr. Morgan was sworn in by the court reporter). MR. ROWLAND: Would you please state your name and address for the record? MR. MORGAN: Yes, my name is John Morgan, Jr. My address is 14500 Tamiami Trail East, Unit 47. Unit 47, I'm sorry. MR. ROWLAND: How old are you? MR. MORGAN: Fifty-nine. MR. ROWLAND: How long have you been a handyman? MR. MORGAN: Forty-five years, Mr. Rowland. MR. ROWLAND: Can you tell us when you first came into contact with Ms. Adams? MR. MORGAN: Yes. My favorite coffee place is where I met Ms, Adams, as she's been employed there for the last probably year and a half we've been going in and out of there, my wife and I, for breakfast or lunch, whatever it might be, and that's how I met Mrs. Adams. MR. DICKSON: Can you hear him okay? MR. JOSLIN: Can we turn that up just a hair? MR. LAIRD: Or come closer to the mike possibly. MR. ROWLAND: Was this one big job you were hired to do? MR. MORGAN: No, it just started out as little phases. I probably should have billed her at each phase, but I did not only because I knew Mrs. Adams, and I didn't think I had a problem, but when we started the minor repairs that we were doing, just one thing led to another, and over a lapse of 12 days -- well, this Page 23 March 21, 2001 is what I've accumulated in my labor and my materials on the project. MR. ROWLAND: I'm going to direct you to what's your blue tab. It's marked as Exhibit A, one of two. Do you recognize this document? MR. MORGAN: Yes, that is the bill that I gave to Mrs. Adams. MR. ROWLAND: Let's go through each item, okay, and please tell us what happened with each. You have on here, install one 12 station Rainbird sprinkler clock. MR. MORGAN: Right. A couple weeks before this, Mrs. Adams had asked me about the sprinkler system. She had some areas that were brown in the lawn and would I mind stopping by to take a look at them to see what they were, and I did just that, and we had gone ahead and made the adjustments that were needed to some of the sprinkler heads, and at the end of that, we turned the system on and ran it through the clock just to make sure everything was operating, and at that point, we found out that there was something wrong with the clock. The clock had signs of a burn on it, so we assumed that this was the problem, why these areas of these zones weren't coming on. So, I just made a suggestion that we should change the clock and put in a new clock, so that's what we did, and that's what I got permission to do. There again, we just turned the system on after we changed the clock and ran it through all its zones, and it operated perfectly. MR. ROWLAND: Was this done before January 11th of 20017 MR. MORGAN: It started -- MR. ROWLAND: Did you install the Rainbird clock before January 11th of 20017 MR. MORGAN: Yes, on 12/26/00. MR. ROWLAND: And I don't see your repair of the sprinkler heads up here. Is this number six, eight sprinkler heads and cap off, is that what you're talking about? MR. MORGAN: No, this was after we were all finished with all the little improvements. The stone area in the front of the building where at one time used to be plantings, well, these sprinkler, pop-up heads were there. So, after we got done Page 24 March 21, 2001 putting in the stone, I made a suggestion to Mrs. Adams that, you know, you don't need those sprinklers there no more because the water from the canal that they were drawing was going to tarnish the stone and turn them brown. I said, why don't we just cap them off being as you don't have plantings out there no more, and that's all that means. It's exactly what it says we -- MR. ROWLAND: So, you didn't bill her for the initial sprinkler head and -- MR. MORGAN: No. MR. ROWLAND: Now, it says -- number two says install 528 feet of landscape logs. That's a lot of logs, isn't it? MR. MORGAN: Yes, sir. MR. ROWLAND: Did you do that all at once? MR. MORGAN: No. MR. ROWLAND: Tell us how that happened? MR. MORGAN: No, this was done over days. I just started it at the front of the building. We talked about -- there's no gutters on the building, and we had this big erosion problem with the ground running into the blacktop, and I made a suggestion, well, you could put some landscape ties there, and that would back up the sand and the mud from running onto the parking lot, and that's where that started. So, I did those, and everyone had liked that, and Mrs. Adams said, I think it would look nice if it went up the sidewalk and around that planter. Okay, I just need to get more logs and up around the planter we went, and it was the other side; well, you have to do the other side of the sidewalk now, then everything will match. I said okay. You know, we have a problem here now by this one parking area. There's a little island there next to a sidewalk that the same thing happens there, can we put some logs around that too? I guess so, why not? It would do the job. MR. ROWLAND: Could you have billed her at each stage? Were you done after each stage? MR. MORGAN: Oh, yeah. MR. ROWLAND: But she approached you and asked you to continue to put more logs out there? MR. MORGAN: Right. I just didn't put them in for the sake of putting them in. Page 25 March 21, 2001 MR. ROWLAND: Now, for each stage, was your time involved and the logs less than a thousand dollars? MR. MORGAN: Yes. MR. ROWLAND: It says install six mill black plastic under stone. How did that come about? MR. MORGAN: Mrs. Adams said to me that the president past requested to have six mill black plastic placed under the stone, and I just said, that's not a problem. I intended on putting that down anyway to help with the erosion problem. MR. ROWLAND: Six -- with the black plastic you installed, with the materials and your time, was that more than a thousand dollars? MR. MORGAN: No. MR. ROWLAND: Let's go to the 22 tons of number 57 rock. That's a lot of rock. MR. MORGAN: Right. Well, when we got to this point, we didn't know -- she had asked me about cypress mulch. She said, John, could you put cypress mulch around the trees for me? Yeah, I can do that. Well, what about this other, do you think we should go with cypress mulch there? I said that's your choice. I said you can put stone, cypress mulch, whatever you want to put, or even sod. Well, it took a day or so, we got the reply, and she said, well, let's use the white stone. I said okay. At that point, I measured the whole thing up for the footage I needed and ordered the stone. Other than that -- MR. ROWLAND: How much did the rock cost? Do you know how much the rock cost? MR. MORGAN: it's been a couple of months. I've forgotten at the moment. MR. ROWLAND: Any idea? Was it under a thousand dollars? MR. MORGAN: Yes, yes, yes. MR. ROWLAND: Sixty bags of cypress mulch, what happened with that? MR. MORGAN: That was part of the plan which, could you put cypress mulch around the three trees at that stoned area? Yeah. At that point, the folks in the condo were putting plants out in front of another planter, and then she asked me, well, how Page 26 March 21~ 2001 about putting mulch out around those plants after they're done? Fine, okay, so I just got more mulch, and ! did as she requested. MR. ROWLAND: Have you been paid for this job? MR. MORGAN: No, sir. Near the very end of the job, in fact, it was the day the stone was delivered, Mrs. Adams handed me $400 in cash, and after that, at that point, I thought I finished the ]ob and I gave them this bill and went over to Mrs. Adams's home and sat down with her a minute and explained it to her, and it was understood, and at that point, she gave me a check for a thousand dollars toward the bill. These two deposits, to the best of my knowledge, also came out of Mrs. Adams's own pocket, and then that was it after that. I talked to Mrs. Adams once or twice again a week or so later, because I was asking may I come over one day and pick up my check for the service. Well, you can't because Michael is away, whoever Michael is, and I got this, Mrs. Adams told me, once or twice, maybe even three times, and then -- MR. ROWLAND: Let me ask you one last question. Why didn't you bill her after each stage? MR. MORGAN: Only because I knew Mrs. Adams. I didn't think I had a problem. It would just save a lot of writing, because I had done other work for her before and waited a week or two for my repair money, so -- and I didn't mind that, and that was the only reason. MR. ROWLAND: I have nothing further. MR. DICKSON: Any board members have any questions of Mr. Morgan? MS. WHITE: I have a question. MR. DICKSON: Go ahead. MS. WHITE: I would like to know the dates. MR. NEALE: Excuse me. They do have the opportunity to cross-examine. So, if the County would like to cross-examine the witness, go ahead. MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes, but if the board has any questions for him on his testimony, I'll defer. MR. DICKSON: Go ahead. MS. WHITE: Yeah, I'm curious about the dates that all this occurred. The Rainbird sprinkler clock was installed on 12/26, which was quite a while ago, and then I would like to know when numbers two, three, four, five and six commenced, on what date? Page 27 March 21, 2001 MR. MORGAN: They just followed -- for instance, I started log work here on 12/27, and I finished Io9 work with the add-ons and the changes on a Saturday, 1/6/01. MS. WHITE: Okay. What about the plastic? MR. MORGAN: The plastic had went down with the stone when I had the stone delivered. MS. WHITE: And the dates for that? MR. MORGAN: 1/9, ma'am. Then the stone ran for 1/9, 1/10, 1/11. The mulch and the stone, the cap and sprinkler heads, the last item on there all happened between 9 -- 1/9 and 1/12. MS. WHITE: So, the stone, the rock and the mulch all occurred between 1/9 and 1/127 MR. MORGAN: Yes, ma'am. MS. WHITE: Those three days? MR. MORGAN: Yes, ma'am. MS. WHITE: I think that's one job then, right? Okay. So, number one is one job. Number two is job number two. Three, four and five is job number three, and when did you do the sprinklers? MR. MORGAN: That was about the very last thing that we done. We just put the cap on them there. MS. WHITE: And the dates? MR. MORGAN: It was either 1/11 or 1/12, ma'am. MS. WHITE: So, that was in the same time period as three, four and five, correct? MR. MORGAN: Yes, ma'am. It went together. MS. WHITE: So, three, four, five and six, what's the price for that together? That's over a thousand dollars, right? MR. MORGAN: Pardon me? MS. WHITE: Numbers three, four, five and six, the total of that would be over a thousand; is that correct, labor and materials? MR. MORGAN: It would probably be that, ma'am, but it wasn't -- that was not one project. They are different projects. MS. WHITE: It's only three days. MR. MORGAN: Yes, ma'am. MS. WHITE: I have no further questions. MR. DICKSON: Anybody else? MR. LAIRD: I have a question, Mr. Chairman. Page 28 March 21,200t Maybe I'm missing something. I happen to be president of my condo association and president like of a homeowners' association. Fortunately, we have management companies in both areas, and they can handle up to 500 bucks, but anything after that, I or my board gets involved, but if something starts out at a hundred bucks, and all of a sudden it gets to be 14,000, ! expect to be notified all the way along. Now, what I'm wondering, was Mrs. Adams notified of all these additional charges as you were working? I appreciate she trusted you, but you still -- it's incumbent upon you, and it would be to me, anything over 500 bucks, ! want to know about as it goes, not at the end. MR. MORGAN: At first, I assumed this wasn't a problem only because Mrs. Adams knew my hourly rate, and it went -- from the very first time I met Mrs. Adams, I discounted for her personally because I knew her as a friend, and then at the end of this project, when I seen the total myself, I said, well, I want to help Mrs. Adams again, and I gave them the supplies at my cost to keep it down because I wanted to do future jobs and repairs for them, and I cut my hourly rate by $10 per hour, bringing it to $55 per hour. MR. LAIRD: Were all these things discussed -- I assume Ms. Adams didn't have a management company handling their condo? You dealt directly with the president of the association? MR. MORGAN: Yes, with Mrs. Adams herself. MR. LAIRD: And you kept her apprised or involved with everything that was going on? MR. MORGAN: Yes, she would give me -- MR. LAIRD: She knew the amount of money that you were charging all along? MR. MORGAN: Well, she knew that right from the front, because when I had talked to, working in her unit, I said I don't work for everybody. I said this is a favor for you, and my normal rate for working for the association or anybody else in the building would be $65 an hour plus the parts to do whatever it might have been. MR. LAIRD: Okay. Thank you. MR. DICKSON: Just a couple of comments, and unless the board has any more questions, I'll turn it over to Mr. Page 29 March 21, 2001 Nonnenmacher. In your testimony, I just wanted to find some things here, You did say that you changed the timer of the clock on the sprinkler system. That's electrical. You did make repairs to the potable water, which is plumbing. The 20 years of experience that you talk about in your testimony and in your -- and on your invoices here, if anything, that works against you, not in favor for you, because after 20 years, you should know better. You should know that you don't exceed a thousand dollars, and just so we keep this thing on track with where we're going, this board serves at the pleasure of the Collier County commissioners. Our only function is the protection of the residents and property owners of Collier County. So, whether -- where you two end up on your payment doesn't really pertain to this board. It has no effect on this board. We're here for the citation and the citation only, okay. Go ahead, Mr. Nonnenmacher. MR. NONNENMACHER.' Good morning, Mr. Morgan. MR. MORGAN: Good morning, sir. MR. NONNENMACHER: I'd like to start off with the 12 station Rainbird sprinkler clock with sensor. MR. MORGAN: Right. MR. NONNENMACHER: Do you have a receipt on what that cost? MR. MORGAN: I do, sir, but I don't -- I have none of these receipts here. MR. NONNENMACHER: Would you be able to tell me what it cost? MR. MORGAN: I guess it's around -- a little over $400 with the sensor and necessary pieces of pipe. MR. NONNENMACHER: And how many hours did it take you to install that? MR. MORGAN: Six hours for picking up the supplies and installing it. MR, NONNENMACHER: So, correct me if I'm wrong -- and we're talking market value now. You stated in your testimony that your usual hourly rate is $65 an hour? MR. MORGAN: Right. MR. NONNENMACHER: Would you say that's a standard for Page 30 March 21, 2001 that type of work? If she hired someone else, would the labor usually be about $65 an hour? MR. MORGAN: I would presume so. MR. NONNENMACHER: So, it's a market value labor price? MR. MORGAN: Yes. MR. NONNENMACHER: Four hundred dollars for the clock and six hours at $65 an hour is $390. It comes to a total of $790 for the clock. MR. MORGAN: Right. MR. NONNENMACHER: Are you -- let me ask one more question. Is this clock a plug-in? Does it have a plug and plug into a receptacle or do you have to go into a circuit breaker box? MR. MORGAN: No, sir, there's no circuit breaker box. MR. NONNENMACHER: So, it's a plug-in? MR. MORGAN: Yes. MR. NONNENMACHER: It actually plugs in the wall? MR. MORGAN: Right. MR. NONNENMACHER: There's no direct wire from the -- MR. MORGAN: Right. MR. NONNENMACHER: Are you sure? I've never seen a clock that isn't direct wired. MR. ROWLAND: He's already answered the question. MR. NONNENMACHER: And I'm asking him if he's sure. MR. MORGAN: I'm trying to recollect now, sir. It's been so many months here. MR. ROWLAND: I think he's answered the question. MR. NONNENMACHER: He's confused. I'd like him to think about it. MR. ROWLAND: I would object to this. He has already answered the question. MR. DICKSON: I'm not a judge. MR. MORGAN: To the best of my knowledge, I think that's what it was, yes. MR. NONNENMACHER: On the 22 tons of number rock -- number 57 rock, you said that was commenced on 1/9 and through 1/12, which is three days; is that correct? MR. MORGAN: Yes. MR. NONNENMACHER: Do you have a receipt for the rock? MR. MORGAN: I have no receipts for nothing here at all. MR. NONNENMACHER.' When was the rock delivered? Page 3t March 21, 2001 MR. MORGAN: On the morning of 1/9, and that was the morning Mrs. Adams had offered me $400 toward the project, per se, because at that time, I never wrote any bills or anything to her for anything, and she had volunteered that. MR. NONNENMACHER: And what was the cost of the rock? MR. MORGAN: Somewhere around $400, if I recollect. MR. NONNENMACHER: And how long -- how many hours did you put into installing the rock? MR. MORGAN: Thirty-four. MR. NONNENMACHER.' Thirty-four hours? MR. MORGAN: Yes. MR. DICKSON: I hate to interrupt you. That's 34 hours for the rock? MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes, to install the rock. I come up with a total bill, just for the rock -- and since the rock was ordered on one day, I would assume it all came on one day -- of over $2,600 just for the rock part of the job; is that correct? MR. MORGAN: How much, sir? MR. NONNENMACHER.' Over $2,600; is that correct? MR. MORGAN: Sir, I don't know, because none of my -- MR. NONNENMACHER: You said you spent 34 hours installing it. MR, MORGAN: Right. MR. NONNENMACHER.' And market value for installing is $65 per hour. MR. MORGAN: Well, I didn't charge Mrs. Adams $65. MR. NONNENMACHER: I know that. We're talking market value though. I mean, if you decided to charge Mrs. Adams $2.00 an hour, it still wouldn't meet the market value requirement of the ordinance or the statute, so we're talking market value. MR. MORGAN: Sir, I still don't understand the question, what you're asking me. MR, NONNENMACHER: What I'm saying is the market value for hourly wage, you testified before was $65 an hour. MR. MORGAN: Right. MR. NONNENMACHER: According to the bill, you only charged $55 an hour. MR. MORGAN: Right. Page 32 March 2t, 2001 MR. NONNENMACHER: But at $65 plus the 400 for the rock, the total price of that job was over $2,600; is that correct? MR. MORGAN: I guess, if that's what the numbers come up. MR. NONNENMACHER: The 528 feet of landscape logs, according to your first testimony, you testified that one day you installed some logs, and then you told her it would look good over here, so you installed some other logs, and then you told her that it would look better if you did the other side, and you installed other logs. Now, my question to you is, that's three separate days that you testified to that you were installing logs. Were all those logs delivered at one time? Was 528 feet -- MR. MORGAN: No. Nor sir. We -- MR. NONNENMACHER: How many times -- MR. MORGAN: We had to pick these up at each phase. MR. NONNENMACHER: How many deliveries? MR. ROWLAND: I'd like to stop this real quick. He's asking him two separate questions. If he's going to ask him whether or not he told her this would look good here, this would look good here, fine, ask that question, but he's got two questions involved in there. He's assuming facts. If he's going to ask him about what he told her, then he needs to do that. MR. DICKSON: Well, at the same time, I don't need to get into semantics. There was a contradiction to your opening statement versus what your client testified to. Your opening statement was that Ms. Adams said, oh, this looks great, let's do this. This looks great. That looks great. Mr. Morgan took the stand and immediately says, I recommended, I told her. So, there is a contradiction there. MR. ROWLAND: I didn't hear him say that. MR. DICKSON: I have several times. MR. ROWLAND: Obviously, you have. MR. DICKSON: Yeah. MR. MORGAN: I don't remember saying that myself, but I just don't do this stuff -- MR. DICKSON: Let's just answer the question, how many different deliveries were there for the -- MR. MORGAN: If I remember, I think there were three, sir. MR. DICKSON: Okay. Page 33 March 2t, 2001 Go ahead, Mr. Nonnenmacher. MR. NONNENMACHER: And do you recall the cost of each delivery in material? MR. MORGAN: No, sir, I don't. MR. NONNENMAGHER: What was the total number of hours you put in in installing 528 feet of landscape logs? MR. MORGAN: Ninety-six. MR. NONNENMAGHER: Ninety-six hours? MR. MORGAN: Right. That also includes changes, remove and redo this or cut this off here and do this. That includes all the changes and add ons. MR. NONNENMAGHER: According to your testimony, you started that on 12/27 and completed that on 1/6; is that correct? MR. MORGAN: Yes, or 1/8, sir. MR. NONNENMAGHER: Did you take any time off, or did you work continuously from 12/27 to 1/6 every day? MR. MORGAN: The only thing, we had the new year in there. We were off for the new year. MR. NONNENMAGHER: So, you worked 1/27. Did you work 1/287 MR. MORGAN: Yes. MR. NONNENMACHER: Twenty-ninth? MR. MORGAN: Yes, sir. Then we started up again on 1/3~ 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, 1/8, 1/9, 1/10, 1/11, and I think I came in for an hour or so the following day just to touch up, sweep up, whatever. MR. NONNENMACHER: I'm talking strictly on the landscape ties. Your testimony was, when Mrs. White asked you, you started the landscaping ties on 12/27 and completed them on 1/6 and then went to items three, four, five and six from 1/9 to 1/12. Are you changing your testimony now or -- MR. MORGAN: What I have listed here are just as I recollect sitting down to make out this bill, not necessarily in an order here. I hope I answered what you wanted me to say. MR. NONNENMACHER: Let me just clarify it. To install the 528 feet of landscape logs, your testimony was you started on 12/27 and completed that on 1/6; is that incorrect? MR. MORGAN: No, that's correct. MR. NONNENMACHER: That is correct? Page 34 March 21, 2001 MR. MORGAN: I have 1/8, sir. I don't know how you got 6 there. MR. NONNENMACHER: And then your testimony is your actual labor was on the 27th, 28th, 29th, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th? MR. MORGAN: I'm getting confused, because of what's happening here. MR. NONNENMACHER.' How many hours a day did you work on the landscape ties? MR. MORGAN: The first day, there was 12 hours. The second day, we had 18 hours, on the 28th, if you need dates. On the 29th, we had 10 hours. On the new year, the third day -- MR. NONNENMACHER.' If I could just stop you for one minute, please? MR. MORGAN: Yes, sir. MR. NONNENMACHER: As you're going along telling me how many hours, could you tell me at what point the second order of landscape logs were ordered? MR. MORGAN: I don't have that on my list of hours. It would be on my receipt stubs. I don't have that. MR. NONNENMACHER: Could you estimate as far as how many days you put in before you had to order your second order?. MR. MORGAN: As the project went out, it was just 75 feet on one side of the building, 75 feet on the other side of the building, and that was to be doubled, because we had calculated with the fill rolling in, it needed two logs to retain what was back there, the fill. MR. NONNENMACHER: So, you're stating now that you actually had two orders, first to do the 75 feet doubled and then to do the other 75 feet doubled? MR. MORGAN: Yeah. MR. NONNENMACHER: So, you actually got two orders instead of three? MR, MORGAN: Two orders, if I recall, of logs. MR. NONNENMACHER: Did it take you just as long to do one side as it did the other? MR. MORGAN: Yes, sir. Yeah MR. NONNENMACHER: So, it took you 48 hours to do one side and then 48 hours to do the other, if you had 96 hours? MR. MORGAN: Right, sir. MR. NONNENMACHER: And the logs, you said, cost -- Page 35 March 21, 2001 MR. MORGAN: I don't know at that point. MR. NONNENMACHER: What did you say 528 feet of logs cost? MR. MORGAN: I can't say at this point, sir. I don't have the receipts. I do not. MR. NONNENMACHER: You have no idea what they cost? MR. MORGAN: I think they were close to probably somewhere around 250 apiece, and they come in eight foot lengths, if you need that. MR. NONNENMACHER: If my calculations are correct, would you agree that the first half in material alone was $125 and 48 hours' worth of labor was $3,1207 MR. MORGAN: Yes, sir, if you're calculating all that. I'm saying yes to what you're asking me. I'm not sure exactly what the supply cost, because I don't have the receipt. I only have a -- MR. NONNENMACHER: Let's forget the cost of materials. MR. MORGAN: .. calculation of the hours that I spent on that day working on logs. MR. NONNENMACHER: Let's forget the cost of materials. If you did one-half of the job one time and one-half of the job the other, and you agree that -- MR. MORGAN: It wasn't done that way. MR. NONNENMACHER: -- it took you the same amount of time, and you got 96 hours, that was 48 hours to do one side. MR. MORGAN: The total hours, sir, on the job was 96, and that included, let's just put them in the front. Well, we think we ought to take it up this side, and then it would look nice if it went up here and around the planter, and then, well, the other side of the walk should have it. Then we went on the other side of the building, and it was primarily the same thing again except the north side of the building, she asked if we could take it down further due to an erosion problem there, and I naturally, I bought more, and we took it down to where Mrs. Adams had asked me to take it to. MR. DICKSON: I think we got -- I think we've made this point. Let's move on to the next one. MR. MORGAN: It wasn't one project. I should have probably MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, I have no further Page 36 March 21, 2001 questions. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Rowland, do you -- do you have questions of County at this point, not for Mr. Morgan? MR. SCHOENFUSS: No, I have a point to make when the time comes. MR. DICKSON: Do you have any witnesses, Mr. Rowland? MR. ROWLAND: Mr. Morgan. MR. DICKSON: Does the County have any witnesses? MR. OSSORIO: The only witness we are going to have is Mrs. Lori Adams, the president of the association. She's going to testify what transpired on those days. MR. DICKSON: Ms. Adams, if you'll come forward to the podium over here, please, to my left, your right. Need for you, if you would, pull that microphone down so we can pick up your voice, and if you'll state your name, please? MS. ADAMS: My name is Delores Adams. MR. DICKSON: Okay. And I need to have you sworn in, please. (Ms. Adams was sworn in by the court reporter}. MR. DICKSON: Does the County want to -- do you have a statement, Mrs. Adams, is that it, to tell us what happened? MS. ADAMS: The only statement I have about this whole thing is that it was everything -- all the materials, the whole job, the stone, the lumber, everything, the mulch was discussed at one time. It had to be measured. The stone was all delivered at one time. To my knowledge, the lumber was not delivered, it was picked up. I assume it was picked up. I wasn't there when this happened, but it was done at one time. Both sides of the building, as Mr. Morgan is referring to, was referred to at one time. He was told it had to be even on both sides. It was not piecemeal at all. The only things that were piecemeal are not anything that was discussed with this conversation, such as the sprinkler systems and things like that. That was done individually, but as far as the stone and the lumber and the mulch, it was one complete thing. MR. DICKSON: Did he ever give you any prices? MS. ADAMS: No, sir, and he never told me that his price was $65 an hour at any time. He did tell me when he did the garbage disposal for me in my own unit that it was $35, and he did that for me as a friend, but never once during the conversation did he Page 37 March 21, 2001 say his hourly rate was $65. On the bills that we've had, he never broke down that his hourly rate was $65. Now, I can understand people getting -- putting a value on their services. However, if I were doing something and it was a $65 rate and I had a helper, why am I paying my helper $65 and myself $65? I would assume, dealing with business people for a lot of years, that you just pay your helpers whatever their rate is, not what you make, unless you're partners. MR. DICKSON: Let me ask you a question too. I'm surprised you didn't ask him how much this project was going to be. Why didn't you? MS. ADAMS: Because I trusted the man for one thing, because he was within a reasonable rate of the other things he did, and to be quite frank with you, it just -- I wasn't exactly myself at the time with my thinking about things, and in my mind, looking at everything that had to be done and talking to other people in other condos, the whole -- I assumed in my whole mind that the whole thing would be no more than 2,000 or $2,500 for the whole project, which would have been reasonable for what he did. At the end of it, when he finally handed me my bill on the -- he didn't hand me the bill on the 11th. He told me on the phone what it would be on the 11th, and I almost passed out cold. The 11th was a Thursday. On a Saturday he came over and gave me the bill, but before he even came over to the house with the bill, I asked him for copies of the receipts for all of the materials and to break down their hours and everything else so I could show everybody, the board, this is what it all cost us, and he never brought it with him, and to this day, I have not had copies of anything, nor have I had copies of his licenses, which I asked for. This whole thing put me in shock, believe me. MR. DICKSON: Does anybody else have any questions of Mr. Rowland (sic}, and then I'll let Mr. -- I mean -- I'm sorry, over here, and then I'll turn it over to you, Mr. Rowland. MS. WHITE: There's two issues here. First of all, whether or not Ms. Adams pays the bill, that's not our concern. That's civil court. So, we don't even need to hear about that. The only thing we're concerned with is the other issue, which is the citation. MR. DICKSON: Right. Page 38 March 21~ 2001 Mr. Rowland. MR. ROWLAND: Ms. Adams, how old are you? MS. ADAMS: Seventy. MR. ROWLAND: How long have you been president of the association at El Capistrano? MS. ADAMS: Since last April, April of 2000. MR. ROWLAND: Was anybody else on the board aware of Mr. Morgan's activities? MS. ADAMS: Everybody. This was no secret, what he was doing. MR. ROWLAND: Let's talk about the work you did in your unit. MS. ADAMS: Uh-huh. MR. ROWLAND: He came out and did some work for you, and how did he come out to your place? Did you know him from before? MS. ADAMS: I asked him. I knew him from before. Like he said, I knew Mr. Morgan for a while because he and his wife and his son used to come into where I work. MR. ROWLAND: And you liked what he did, so you asked him to come back and do some other work for you -- MS. ADAMS: Yes. MR. ROWLAND: -- for the condo association? MS. ADAMS: Yes. MR. ROWLAND: So, you first called him out to look at the sprinkler system, right? MS. ADAMS: That's correct. MR. ROWLAND: And there was some problem -- MS. ADAMS: No, no, I first called him out for the bathrooms. MR. ROWLAND: What about the bathrooms? MS. ADAMS: The bathrooms out in the pool area, that's the one that he installed the handles and the insides, you know, they were running. MR. ROWLAND: Let's talk about this bill right here, okay. Number one -- actually, do you have a copy of this, Exhibit A, one of two? MS. ADAMS: Yes, I do. MR. ROWLAND: I'm sure you're quite familiar with this bill. Number one says, install one 12 station Rainbird sprinkler clock. Page 39 March 21, 2001 MS. ADAMS: Yes. MR. ROWLAND: So, my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that he came out and looked at your sprinkler system, and he changed some sprinkler heads, correct? MS. ADAMS: Yes, but if -- if you want to discuss this bill, and you're discussing this particular thing, if you look over on the other bills, you'll see where they did do the sprinkler system and everything else and charged us for that for -- to the tune of about 400 some dollars, which he waived? MR. ROWLAND: Let's talk about the 12 station Rainbird clock. MS. ADAMS: Oh, I am. Okay, the clock, go ahead. MR. ROWLAND: Now, you asked him to install the clock? MS. ADAMS: He said the clock had to be installed and had to be replaced. Otherwise, the sprinkler system wouldn't -- the sprinkler system -- everything was working before he installed the clock after the first time he came out. The sprinkler system was working, and then he said we did need the clock, and he did put the clock in, yes. MR. ROWLAND: Did he do it without your permission? MS. ADAMS: No. MR. ROWLAND: Did he force you to have the clock put in? MS. ADAMS: No. MR. ROWLAND: It was working. Well, if it was working, why did you have him put the clock in? MS. ADAMS: Because he told me that it had to be replaced, that it was no good. MR. ROWLAND: And so he was done at that point, right? That was the project? He was finished? He had put the clock in? He had done what you asked him to do? MS. ADAMS: Correct. MR. ROWLAND: You didn't get a bill at that point? MS. ADAMS: No. MR. ROWLAND: Did you ask for one? MS. ADAMS: Yes. MR. ROWLAND: You asked for a bill? MS. ADAMS: No, not for that because then he started on everything else. MR. ROWLAND: Oh, he just went out and did everything else on his own? Page 40 March 21, 2001 MS. ADAMS: No, because that's when we discussed about the rock and the mulch and the lumber and the two sides of everything is right after he finished putting this in. The day he finished putting this in, I was over at the house, and we discussed this whole other big project, and he measured things, and that's -- he gave me -- that's why he put that bill with everything, with everything else. MR. ROWLAND: So, what you're testifying to is that he came out and appraised the property -- he came out and gave you an estimate for one big project? MS. ADAMS: No, he did not give me any price. He told me how much -- he measured, excuse me, he measured. He measured how much lumber he would need. He measured how much rock he would need, and he approximated how much mulch he would need, and we discussed the whole thing right then and there. MR. ROWLAND: Isn't it true that after he was done with the 12 Bird -- the Rainbird sprinkler clock, that you told him you had a problem with erosion, and you took him over to the side of the building? MS. ADAMS: That's what I just said. We told him we wanted the rock. MR. ROWLAND: Well, you're going to have to clarify for me, because I wasn't there, okay. So, you took him over to the side of the building, correct? MS. ADAMS: No. MR. ROWLAND: No? MS. ADAMS: It was in front of the building. MR. ROWLAND: Okay. It was in front of the building. So, there was a problem with erosion in front of the building? MS. ADAMS: Correct. MR. ROWLAND: And at that point, you asked him, isn't there something we can do about this? MS. ADAMS: That's correct. MR. ROWLAND: And he told you -- he told you we can install some railroad ties right here in front of the dirt? MS. ADAMS: We discussed whether grass, sod or rock would be the best thing, and he suggested the rock. I had already had other people suggest rock to be put over there because the grass would not grow because of the sun and Page 41 March 21, 2001 everything else, the way the building is set up, and then we went from there -- we were standing there discussing all of this, and I said, well, the rock is going to fall down, and he said, yes, and then we discussed the lumber and everything, but we discussed every single thing that's on this bill all at the same time. MR. ROWLAND: We'll go back to this in a second, but I want to ask you a quick question. MS. ADAMS: Go ahead. MR. ROWLAND: You're president of the association. MS. ADAMS: Correct. MR. ROWLAND: Did you okay this work with everybody on the board? MS. ADAMS: No, because I didn't -- there's a -- if we have -- we have a budget set aside for landscaping. This fell underneath that budget. Like I said before, in my mind, I thought it would only be about 2,000, $2,500. Mr. Morgan never bothered to tell -- give me an estimate or even mention how much this was going to cost. We did have money set aside for it. MR. ROWLAND: You're in a lot of trouble with your neighbors right now, aren't you? MS. ADAMS: My neighbors are not too happy with me, but that's fine. MR. NONNENMACHER: Objection. We're getting into money issues again. It's totally irrelevant from this citation. MR. ROWLAND: We're not in a court of law. I think I can go into this question. I think it goes to her credibility. MR. NEALE: Just to go through the rules again, the formal rules of evidence in this kind of proceeding do not apply. Fundamental fairness and due process shall be observed in governing the proceedings. Irrelevant, immaterial evidence shall be excluded, but all other evidence of a type commonly relied upon by reasonably prudent persons in the conduct of their affairs shall be admissible, whether or not such evidence would be admissible in a trial in the courts of the state, and it's up to the chairperson or vice chairperson, in his absence, to make the decision on these matters. MR. ROWLAND: I think the board should take into consideration that the reasoning behind her complaint -- or the reasoning behind her testimony today. Page 42 March 21, 2001 MR. DICKSON: I don't think -- MR. NONNENMACHER: I would still -- MR. DICKSON: Whoa, whoa, whoa. We don't need to get into a personal attack. We didn't do that to your client either, okay. MR. ROWLAND: I apologize, Ms. Adams, if that was considered a personal attack. Let's go back to the list real quick, okay. Now, you said everything was done at once? MS. ADAMS: Yes, sir. MR. ROWLAND: Did he deliver -- did he order all the logs at once? MS. ADAMS: To my knowledge, they were all there. MR. ROWLAND: Okay. Did you supervise this work every day? MS. ADAMS: No. MR. ROWLAND: Did you see him working every day? MS. ADAMS: Yes, I saw him every day. Excuse me. He was not there before I went to work, which is like about a quarter to eight in the morning. He was not there, except for two days, he was not there when I got home, which is around 2:30 or three o'clock in the afternoon. There were a few days that he was not there at all. However, I have neighbors that are home all the time that were out talking to him, out supervising the work and everything else. MR. ROWLAND: Where do you work? MS. ADAMS: At Camille's Cafe. MR. ROWLAND: You've been there quite a while, right? MR. DICKSON: That's not relevant to the case. Move on, please. MR. ROWLAND: Now, if you ordered all the stuff to be done all at once, the logs were there all at once, and the rock came all at once? MS. ADAMS: The rock was delivered .. I was there the morning the rock was delivered, and it was 22 tons of rock. It was a whole full truckload of rock that was delivered. MR. ROWLAND: This all came on the same day, so the logs were stacked there, and the rocks -- MS. ADAMS: The logs were there before -- the logs were Page 43 March 21,200t there before the rock. The rock all came on the same day. MR. ROWLAND: Isn't it true that he put the logs in in the area that you had a problem with erosion, and then you liked how it looked, and you asked him to do more with the logs? MS. ADAMS: No. MR. ROWLAND: This was one big project? MS. ADAMS: I told him -- the one time that we discussed this thing, I told him specifically that both sides had to be done, because it had to look even. The only change we made about the logs was he had brought it straight down, because a walkway goes up, and he had logs come straight down this way and this way. The only change that we had to do about that, we had to cut it off on a caddie-corner because we have a handicapped person, and we needed that extra space for the wheelchair, and the other change that we made, he had one log on one end of the building a little bit shorter than we wanted it, and we asked him to just extend it a little. That was the only changes. MR. ROWLAND: Let's go back to when he did work for you personally. When he came into your condo and did some work for you, did you ask him what it would cost? MS. ADAMS: Before he came, yes. MR. ROWLAND: Why didn't you ask him what it was going to cost when he did the big project for your condo, if it was all one big project? MS. ADAMS: Because I told you before, he did work for us before. He told me in the beginning how much it was for one project, and it was right there where every -. I had estimates, got it from a couple of other people, and they could not get over there to do it. It was the same price. I trusted the man because his prices for the other two things he did before were within range. MR. ROWLAND: He gave you an estimate for what? MS. ADAMS: To clean the pool deck. MR. ROWLAND: And so you expected that -- you never asked him though what it would cost to put in 528 feet of log? MS. ADAMS: No, I told you that before. MR. ROWLAND: You never asked him what it would cost to put in 22 tons of rock? MS. ADAMS: Do you not understand how I said it to you Page 44 March 21, 2001 before? I trusted this man. I thought -- he never bothered to tell me or give me an estimate, and at this time, I had a lot of things on my mind, and I was not thinking correctly. I admit I'm wrong if that's what you want to hear. However, he was wrong also by not turning around and telling me this is going to cost a certain amount of money. MR. ROWLAND: I have no further questions. MR. DICKSON: Anyone on the board have any questions? MR. JOSLIN: I just have one quick question. Were you, ma'am, the only person who was giving the directions? MS. ADAMS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. MR. JOSLIN: Were you the only person giving this man directions as far as what he was to do and not to do? Was anybody else on the board or -- MS. ADAMS: Nobody else on the board, no, but we have a tenant -- we have an owner that lives there that gets involved in everything, and I can honestly say -- I can't swear to it, but I would not be surprised if he was telling John this had to be done or that had to be done. MR. JOSLIN: Were there more than just himself working at any one time, more than just him as a handyman? MS. ADAMS: His son was with him. Some of the time his son was with him. Different times I dealt with him alone when he was on the property, but his son was there with him. MR. JOSLIN: So, basically, he moved 22 tons of gravel by himself? MS. ADAMS: No, he did not do it. His son did it. MR. JOSLIN: His son did it? MS. ADAMS: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: Anybody else? MS. ADAMS: It took the two of them -- that day, the two of them were there. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Well, if it's time for comment. MR. DICKSON: What I'd like to do is finish with the witnesses first. Anybody else? Ms. Adams, you're free to sit down. Thank you very much. Closing statement for Mr. Rowland and a closing statement from Mr. Nonnenmacher. Page 45 March 21, 2001 Is that correct procedure, Counselor? MR. NEALE: Yes, it is. MR. DICKSON.' Go ahead, Mr. Rowland. MR. ROWLAND: Members of the board, I appreciate your time and patience today. This has been kind of a long ordeal, and I understand your concern about protecting the public. I think that is your ]ob. I think you need to understand that -- and I apologize if you felt that I was an attacking Ms. Adams, but there's an underlying issue here. I know that you don't want to deal with that, but basically that's the reasoning behind all of this, is that she's in trouble with the members in her condo, and that that's the reason that she has, I believe, not told the truth today about this bill and what took place. That's up to you to decide. You're on the board, and that's your decision to make, but you're not protecting an innocent party here if you find Mr. Morgan guilty of these offenses. He was trying to be as straightforward and honest with this woman as he possibly could. I know you don't know him, but I can vouch for his honesty. He's quite an upstanding citizen. I know Mr. Nonnenmacher keeps talking about the going rate of $65 an hour, and nowhere in the statute that I have seen talks about the market rate being what he should have charged. He charged her $55 an hour, not $65, and his biggest mistake was that he put it all on one bill, but we can add this up any way you want to to make it come out to more than a thousand dollars per job, but they were individual lobs, and she realizes that she has to testify today that it was one big project and that way she can get everybody in her neighborhood off her back, and so they won't have to pay the bill. There is a bigger picture here. Basically, Mr. Morgan was trying to do something nice for her, trying to help her out, and it backfired on him, and I hope you'll see that. I have nothing further. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Nonnenmacher. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, naturally, I disagree with that. The bill is one. His testimony as to the rocks being delivered on one day is one with 96 hours to put them down. That's well over a thousand. I disagree with his comment on the amount per hour. The amount per hour is set by statute and by ordinance, not dollar Page 46 March 21, 2001 value but market value was always placed on that. It was placed on there for permits. It was placed on there for -- for example, the Rainbird sprinkler. Any kind of electrical work does not conform with normal type procedures, and any electrical work that is done that has a value over $250 requires a permit to be done. The handyman ordinance deals with inconsequential things. Electrical work is not inconsequential. It could start a fire. It's a life safety issue. So, right there, the thousand dollars is out the window. It's $250 market value, needs a permit to do electrical work, and that has to be done by a licensed electrician. In Mr. Morgan's own testimony, materials were delivered all at once, for example, the rock. The 528 feet of landscape ties, he claims at first were delivered in three separate deliveries, and now -- and then his testimony was it was delivered in two separate deliveries. Again, if he wanted to pull apart each item of this, if it took him 96 hours to do that, that would be 48 hours each side, according to his testimony. Again, the 48 hours -- and we'll go with his rate at $55 -- is still over a thousand dollars' worth of work. By his own testimony, he started this ]ob on 1/27 (sic) and completed it on the 12th of January and worked every day except for the 30th, 31st, 1st and 2nd and continued right away through until the 12th. Again, at that point, he should have said that the ]ob was more than a thousand dollars. I'm not licensed to do electrical work. I'm not licensed to do irrigation. I'm not licensed to do landscaping. He's licensed with an occupational license to do inconsequential work, that's all, under a thousand dollars, a thousand dollars or under. There's no way in the world I would expect this board to believe $9,371 was all ten different ]obs. We believe that Mrs. Adams was telling the truth and that Mr. Morgan has -- the only reason for him saying it was separate lobs is to circumvent the law. I have no further. Thank you. MR. DICKSON: Do you have to do a rebut, Counselor? MR. NEALE: He's permitted, if he wishes. MR. ROWLAND: I have no rebuttal. Page 47 March 21, 2001 MR. NEALE: If I may, just before the board begins their deliberation, the issue that's before the board is the citation as issued, Citation Number 050, which all the board members have a copy, which specifically charges that the alleged violator has engaged in the business or acted in the capacity of a contractor, advertised self or business organization as available to act in the business or act in the capacity of a contractor without being duly registered or certified, and then it's noted, sprinkler or landscaping. The charge to this board is that this violation is presumed to have occurred, unless the person issued the citation or his or her designated representative showed that the citation either is invalid or that the violation has been corrected prior to appearing before the enforcement or licensing board or designated special master. If that is shown that it's invalid or the violation has been corrected, the board may dismiss the citation, unless the violation is irreparable or irreversible. Should the board find that the violation exists, the board or designated special master, in this case the board, may order the violator to pay a civil penalty of not less than the amount set forth on the citation, but not more than a thousand dollars per day for each violation. In determining the amount of the penalty, the enforcement or licensing board shall consider the following factors, the gravity of the violation, actions taken by the violator to correct the violation and any previous violations committed by the violator. That's really the issue, but just to focus the board is, the test is whether this violation was valid -- whether this citation is valid, whether it was issued for the reason that underlaid, and that the board -- that the staff proved up their case, and that it was not negated by the evidence presented by the respondent. MR. DICKSON: Do I have a motion to close the public hearing? MR. SCHOENFUSS: I move we close the public hearing. MR. LAIRD: Second. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor? Just so all you -- you-all understand that, your input is over with. What you have to do now is sit and listen to us discuss the case, which does go on record, and then we'll make our decision. MR. NEALE: For those in the audience that are not aware, Page 48 March 21, 2001 this is sort of like when a jury goes back into the jury room except you get to watch them here. MR. DICKSON: I am going to -- this is not a smoke break. This is a four minute break for personal necessities. We will reconvene here sharply at eleven o'clock. (Small break was held). MR. DICKSON: We're hereby called back to order. We are in discussion. Public hearing is closed. On the last case that we heard, I just remind you to follow the directions of our counselor, that we are not concerned about this bill. We're not concerned about Ms. Adams, if she's in trouble or whether she pays it or Mr. Morgan gets paid. Neither are we concerned about the dollar amount except for the thousand dollar increments. Let's just confine ourselves to the citation itself. The comments I had, and then I'll give it to you, I don't know about you guys, but I was bothered by the fact that after all of this, Mr. Morgan did not have receipts for materials. I thought that that was somewhat convenient. We had everything else, and we could break down the hours, but we didn't have receipts for materials. I would have thought those would have been there. I appreciate you picking up the fact that I heard a lot of we were doing the work and not I was doing the work. This work was still done. Our issue is whether it was over a thousand dollars, any part of it, and, obviously, this case is going to be resolved in a civil court and not here. So, with that, fire away, guys. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Well, I'm trying to simplify my understanding of this case about which we had so much long-winded conversation. As I see it, it's quite simple. Mr. Ossorio issued a citation to Mr. Morgan for allegedly violating a county ordinance, and the sole purpose, repeating what we just heard, the sole purpose of our hearing or whatever this was today is to decide, does the citation stand or is it dismissed. Now, if we dismiss the citation, that's the end of it. If we let this citation stand and enforce it and unless we go on and explore other possibilities that Mr. Neale explained a few minutes ago, but if we just say that the citation stands, then Mr. Morgan has to pay a $600 fee, which is about 6 percent of a $9,000 contract, and in either case, he goes Page 49 March 21, 2001 on in business as Mr. Morgan -- as Mister Fix-It, and it's that simple. My feeling is we should stop talking about it and rule that the citation stands. MR. DICKSON: Any other comments? MS. WHITE: I agree. MR. DICKSON: I think -- I think County could have written more citations. I see three more that were not written. So, if there's no more comments, I need a motion. MR. SCHOENFUSS: I move the citation stands. MR. NEALE: If I may, if the board does vote to rule that the citation is valid, and the board may, and it's not required, order the violator to pay a civil penalty not less than the amount set forth on the citation, but not more than a thousand dollars per day for each violation. Now, should the board get into that penalty phase, the board shall consider the gravity of the violation, actions taken by the violator to correct and previous violations committed by the violator. So, I agree with Mr. Schoenfuss that first finding the validity of the citation is the first essential step, and then should the board find that, then the next step is to determine penalty. MR. DICKSON: Let's do this, citation first without a -- MS. SCHOENFUSS: I move that the citation stands and that we take no further action. MR. LAIRD: I second that, or do we already have a second? I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. MR. DICKSON: That's fine. All those in favor? Opposed? (No response). MR. DICKSON: Penalty phase, one thing I was going to ask County, and none of us have, has Mr. Morgan had any citations or been in any problems before? MR. NONNENMACHER: Not that we know of, sir, not on record. MR. SCHOENFUSS: He's been in business 20 years, and we don't have anything else. MR. DICKSON: Penalty phase, how much? Should it be the amount written or greater? You cannot go less than the amount Page 50 March 2t, 2001 written. MR. LAIRD: I would recommend the amount written. MR. JOSLIN: I would second that. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor? Opposed? (No response). MR. DICKSON: None, motion passes. Mr. Morgan, it is the finding of this board that the citation is valid in the amount of $600, and we have found no reason to set that aside, and we hereby confirm the citation and that you do need to pay it. Wish you the best of luck and hope you don't run into this problem again. I will say this, I've been in the construction business a long time too. Had you come to this board with a 1,200 or $1,400 issue and wanted to say that it was just a job that grew, that would have been different, but when you came to this board with a $14,000 bill that you reduced to 9,000, that was a pretty tough hill to climb, okay. Best of luck to you. MR. DICKSON: Next case is Collier County versus Tom Welsh, Tom Welsh Painting. Mr. Welsh, are you present? Please come forward. MR. WELSH: Here? MR. DICKSON.' Yes, sir. I need for you to state your name, please. MR. WELSH: Tom Welsh. MR. DICKSON: And I need for you to be sworn in. (Mr. Welsh was sworn in by the court reporter). MR. NEALE: Just so the board -- because we haven't done one of these in a while, this is a formal hearing on a complaint set out by the contractor licensing staff. The process for this one is, again, under 162.07 but a little bit more formalized. Again, prosecution makes their statement first, then defense, then prosecution gets to put on their case, and then defense gets to put on theirs. So, first statement comes out of contractor licensing staff. Then Mr. Welsh gets to respond in their opening statements. Then prosecution calls their witnesses. He calls his witnesses, closing arguments, then board deliberation. Page 51 March 21, 2001 MR. DICKSON: I need to address special circumstances first. Mr. Welsh, are you telling this board that you're wanting to be represented by an attorney or you are represented and he couldn't make if or what? MR. WELSH: I stepped up the date of the hearing to get this behind me, and my attorney couldn't make it, and I said, look, I'm going down and face the music because I don't believe your presence is something that we need to have. You know, the facts are the facts, and it's how you see them and how you interpret them that will interpret what I need to do after this. MR. NEALE: I think Mr. Welsh ought to be advised fully, should this board -- one of the penalties that this board can impose, should it find against you, is that the board can take away your license to practice contracting. So, they can put you out of business. MR. WELSH: So be it. MR. DICKSON: I will give you the option, if you would prefer to be represented by an attorney, since he couldn't be here, we will postpone this. MR. WELSH: I'm here. MR. DICKSON: You want to proceed? MR. WELSH: Yes, sir. MR. DICKSON: Very well. Is the County ready to make their opening statement? You're on. MR. OSSORIO: Good morning. For the record, Michael Ossorio, Collier County licensing department. Let me make this really short. I'm not going to try to get into money or ambiguous items, but just state the fact that Tom Welsh Painting acted as a general contractor by having a signed contract, which is E-8 of the -- MR. DICKSON: Having a signed contract? MR. OSSORIO: Signed. E-8 through E-10, a contract between Tom Welsh Painting and Ms. Roberta Rigney. If you read the contract in length, it discusses outside the scope of his painting license. We do have one witness to corroborate testimony of the contract, and that's what we're going to be presenting today, and Page 52 March 2t, 2001 we made it very simple. As you read through it, you're going to see that he removed mirrors, removed kitchen cabinets, drywall, recessed, did electrical, did plumbing, did tile work, plumbing in a condo unit which is considered commercial, would, therefore, need a general contractor, list of subs and requires a building permit. You're going to hear from Dr. Horton who lives at 1000 Palm View Drive, and she has -- Mr. Tom Welsh has done painting and contracting at her house or her condo in the past, back in May, for the same violations as we listed today. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Welsh, you can make an opening statement, sir. MR. WELSH: I represent myself as a painting contractor with a network of people who can do a lot of jobs and who do a fine job and who are favorably priced because they get paid right away, and most of the people I recommend this to are out of town, and they have no way of contacting these people because they have no clue. I offer help to people such as Mrs. Rigney, who told me right up front that her father was a general contractor, and I said I was not a general contractor. In fact, nowhere is it stated on my unsigned contract, if you have it in front of you, unsigned, okay, nowhere -- and I told her that I'd help her in securing whatever she needed, made some suggestions to her. I realized that I broke the rules of contracting when I had someone remove a wall in her kitchen, I realize that. I know that that's a fact, but as far as anything else, financial harm, it didn't happen. MR. DICKSON: Let me ask some questions. In the -- MR. WELSH: If I could say one more thing. MR. DICKSON: Yes, sir, at anytime. MR. WELSH: I would object to anything else being brought into this hearing except for this Roberta Rigney case, because it's not relevant. It has nothing to do with this case. Things that happen in the past, you know, I can defend those, but I'm not here to defend those. I'm here to talk about Roberta Rigney, who got into all of this because I was sick and didn't call her to tell her I was sick and didn't finish it on the day that it was supposed to, when she showed up with her company and was embarrassed to tears and started this deceitful act. Page 53 March 21, 2001 MR. DICKSON: Let me make a comment to you so that you understand. Since you have admitted that you have violated contracting laws by doing some work that you're not authorized to do, we can move on in the case once I ask County if there's any other issues involved. As far as the penalty phase, what we do, because you violated that law, you cannot keep your past out of it. That does come up. MR. WELSH: I'm sorry, you cannot what? MR. DICKSON: As far as the penalty that we decide to take against you because of a contractor violation, your past is very much a part of what we decide that penalty to be, okay. Does County have any other issues besides the fact that he acted as a general contractor? MR. OSSORIO: The only one issue we have is that we got this complaint from the City of Naples as well, because this is located in the City, so we had to go ahead and go forward with this case. We do have Dr. Horton who wants to go ahead and testify to the fact that he has done work in the past, and that might be in the penalty phase since he has admitted that he did act as a general contractor outside the scope of his painting license in the definition under the ordinance. MR. DICKSON: Does the County have any other complaints on this man? MR. NONNENMACHER: I think we would have to move forward with the financial harm section of it. MR. DICKSON: Is there financial harm? MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, we intend to prove that there's financial harm, because that's what we charged him with, also. MR. DICKSON: Okay. So, there are more issues. Very well, the County-- MR. WELSH: Could I say something here? It was not until I talked to Michael Ossorio that I realized removing a wall in a condominium was something that only a general contractor could do because it was a public situation. MR. DICKSON: Okay. You'll get to -- you'll get a second whack at defending anything they say. MR. WELSH: Good, good. MR. OSSORIO: The financial harm aspect would the -- Page 54 March 21, 2001 Roberta Rigney would have to go ahead and get a general contractor from the City of Naples to pull the necessary building permits to get inspected, and that's going to cause financial harm to the property owner. MR. DICKSON: I see. Okay. Go ahead and present your -- MR. OSSORIO: So now she's going to have to go out and get a general contractor to do all of the necessary repairs or tear down any plumbing work, electrical work. As you can see as he listed the criteria of the contract, it reads not just pulling out one wall, it's redoing the kitchen, redoing the bathrooms and flooring. So, this would need to get a general contractor, list of subs and get a notice of commencement. MR. DICKSON: I'm with you. MR. OSSORIO: And the financial harm would be under the penalty phase, and Mrs. -- Dr. Horton will testify what she had to go through to get a licensed contractor prior to getting all the inspections and getting it finalized. MR. DICKSON.' Go ahead and present your case. Is that -- MR. OSSORIO: That's going to be about it other than the penalty phase when Dr. Horton will testify to the fact that she was done financial harm. MR. NEALE: What we do need you to do is if you wish the board to consider this presentation, it has to be moved into evidence. MR. OSSORIO: I move that we put Composite Number A into the record, Case Number 2001-03. MR. DICKSON: I need that motion from a member of the board. MR. MR. SCHOENFUSS: I so move. JOSLIN: Second the motion. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor of admitting this into evidence. Opposed? (No response). MR. DICKSON: Done. So, that is basically the County's case, that there is financial harm, because now a general contractor has to be called in to rectify the situation and get all the final inspections. I'm going to get to your witness in just a minute, but I'm going to give Mr. Welsh now an opportunity to respond. Page 55 March 21, 2001 MR. NONNENMACHER: May I ask one question before he testifies, please? MR. DICKSON: Sure. MR. NONNENMACHER: Am I right to assume that the working out of the scope of his license has already been decided through an admission and we do not have to present any more evidence on that part of the case? MR. DICKSON: Yes, sir, Mr. Welsh admitted to that on record. MR. NONNENMACHER: Okay. Thank you. MR. DICKSON: Go ahead, MR. WELSH: On Roberta Rigney's job, I informed her of, the plumber made some suggestions. He talked to her personally. She dealt with him from the conversation through the rest of it. So, whether he got a permit, dealing with her, I doubt it because she was into saving money. She's a doctor's wife, and she knew right from the get go, because nowhere in here does it say a permit, nowhere, nowhere at all, and me not being knowledgeable about a wall in a condominium that had no bearing on anything -- you know, it was an obstruction to a visual point in a very small condominium, and that was the problem. We took the wall out, and there was a licensed electrician who came in who is licensed in Collier County, has been here for twenty some years, who is also a heating and air conditioning man -- he put in the thermostat. He did all the electrical work. So, I mean -- they can go in and check code all they want. It's not necessary, but -- because he will come forth if it has to be, and this thing about her getting financial harm because she has to have a general contractor come in, the plumber is one of the most notable plumbers in Naples. She dealt with him. He probably asked her, well, do you want me to get a permit, and I can tell you what the answer was, but I wasn't there, and I can only tell you that. So, you know, when this noise comes on -- and, you know, Michael Ossorio heard her part, and, of course, I ragged on him, and I get a little irate and a little hot under the collar because the truth is the truth, and other occasions where there has been something said about me, financial harm has come when I was pushed out of the way, grabbed by the neck and says, you do what I say or else, and I said, not on your best day, and I Page 56 March 21, 2001 removed myself from the picture, and that's when financial harm came, and that's the only thing I can tell you, and that's another reason why, when the lawyer said he couldn't make it today, I said, listen, I need to tell these people how it is. We had a very social, general contractor take over Roberta Horton's job, and 45 days after it was red tagged, there was some action taken, and that's why she created -- it created her financial harm, her health issue, her mini stroke, blah-blah-blah. We even had intentions of going into her condo, which took seven months -- seven months, I should say June until recently to even get an offer on it because of the condition, but once we were made to look like the black sheep, she wouldn't listen to us, and then I continually provided things to her in the way of receipts of what I had done or where the money went and dah-dah-dah. The amazing part, the man that finished the ]ob under Mr. Spinelli's auspices is the same man who started the ]ob who she was more than willing to hire because he was a great guy doing a great ]ob at twenty bucks an hour. MR. DICKSON: Where is this condo, which building? MR. WELSH: Well, the condo that the original issue came about was in the Belair. It's about 26 years old. MR. DICKSON: I know it. Right there off of -- it's about 12 years. MR. WELSH: Right at Park Shore and Belair. MR. DICKSON: Okay. MR. WELSH: You know, we tore the cabinets out of Mrs. Rigney's place, and the plumbing was incredible, and then if you want to back up to Roberta's place, when we went into her place, we noticed a lamp cord wire going across the top of the baseboard from outlet to outlet -- MR. DICKSON: This really doesn't have anything to do with today. MR. WELSH: Yeah, I'm just trying to tell you, you know. MR. DICKSON: Let's stay on the case. First of all, how long have you been in business here? MR. WELSH: Forty-five years. MR. DICKSON: In Collier County? MR. WELSH: Thirteen years. I think I've been licensed here -- I started out, and then I realized I needed a license. I think my Page 57 March 21,200t license started in '90, but I came here, bought a business and then went back in the painting business. MR. DICKSON: I would like to think -- I would like to hope that this is the first time you've written a contract like this. MR. WELSH: Actually, you know -- and you may think that I'm a fool for telling you this, but I'm very proud of it. We did a contract like this for a gentleman from Minneapolis, Minnesota, who owned the largest lumber company in that city, and we hired a licensed plumber, and we didn't do any removal of walls or anything like that. It was in Lee County. It was a job in excess of $50,000, and, you know, it was just all -- but it wasn't general contracting. We tore cabinets out. MR. DICKSON: Stop. I hate to see a guy put -- just sit here and watch him put a rope around his neck. MR. WELSH: Listen, the truth is the truth. I didn't contract it. I spelled it out to these people. MR. DICKSON: Do you realize you cannot do this? You are a subcontractor. You're a specialty contractor -- MR. WELSH: I don't subcontract for anybody. MR. DICKSON: -- anymore than I can go out and do a roof and remodel their kitchen and their cabinets along there. MR. WELSH: I don't do that. I don't do that, sir, I really don't. I have a group of licensed contractors who -- MR. DICKSON: Then get a general contractor's license -- MR. WELSH: I do not have a general contractor's license. MR. DICKSON: -- because that's the only license you can do this under, and you admit it. You know it. MR. WELSH: In this case, with out of town people, they gave me a check, which I purchased all the stuff with. In the other cases, they had recourse to each and every person and what they charged, and I arranged it. MR. DICKSON: Anything else? MR. WELSH: And they incurred my time to line that up, and then they knew what the things cost. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make sure you get back on track with the 4.1.8, committing mismanagement or misconduct in the practice of contracting that causes financial harm to a consumer. So, we're off on the working out of the scope of the license. Page 58 March 21, 2001 We're finished with that penalty. I just want to make sure we get back to the financial harm. MR. DICKSON: I got you. Go ahead and call your -- anything else, Mr. Welsh? MR. WELSH: Yeah, you know, financial harm, I mean, define that; because someone took the job over? MR. DICKSON: Any new evidence, because you'll get another chance here in just a minute, okay, on that issue. We want to hear from the witness for the County. MR. WELSH: I totally object to having a witness come in on something that's old. MR. DICKSON: You can't do that. MR. WELSH: I can't? MR. DICKSON: No, sir. MR. WELSH: I see. MR. DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. OSSORIO: I just have one question to Mr. Welsh. It's pretty ironic that you state on record that you did not know you needed to remove -- to remove a wall in a condo required a building permit or a contractor, but you did it back in May of last year, in June, which got red tagged by code enforcement that you needed to do that, and then you continue to go ahead and do that the previous year. MR. WELSH: When you walked in, this David Ostell (phonetic), who Roberta condoned -- in fact, he finished the job and did the job from start to finish under Mr. Spinelli's license, once he got his permit into August, causing her great harm -- MR. OSSORIO: But didn't you and I have a discussion -- MR. WELSH: You walked in with the wires hanging down. You said, you can't do this. Where is this. Oh, I see you brought these cabinets in. You went irate, and I said listen, man, what you say, you might want to take the words back because you're not an attorney and don't try to enforce an attorney, and -- MR. DICKSON: This is not an argument, just state the -- MR. WELSH: I know that. I'm trying to state facts. MR. DICKSON: And I'm not going to let an argument get going here. MR. WELSH: Yes, sir, I understand. MR. DICKSON: Let's make that very clear. MR. WELSH: I understand. Page 59 March 21, 2001 MR. DICKSON: I'll close this case right now. MR. WELSH: I understand. MR. DICKSON: Answer a question in a civil manner. MR. WELSH: When Michael Ossorio came in, noticed wood work missing, a wire hanging down from a wall in the living room and a channel cut to put new wires in and numerous other things, that that began the red tag, and I probably -- even though -- there was a big dispute at Roberta Rigney's house where he said, you can't take this wall down. It wasn't a wall. It was a header on a concrete slab -- you know, a flexicord (phonetic) construction building. You can't take this wall down because you need engineering, and when it came down to the bottom line, there was no engineering necessary in that part of it. You know, I would never do that again. I wouldn't touch a wall in a condominium anywhere. MR. DICKSON.' Mr. Welsh, you got lucky. You got lucky. MR. WELSH: I was dealing with an engineer from the City of Naples. MR. DICKSON: You go taking walls down on some of these condos, you can collapse part of that building. Even drilling an extra bore through a concrete slab can cause those buildings to go down. MR. WELSH: I understand that. MR. DICKSON: The fact that you got lucky doesn't mean anything. MR. WELSH: We were in touch with the engineer -- MR. DICKSON.' Let's go back to the -- do you have any more questions of Mr. Welsh? MR. OSSORIO: No. I just want to read something into the record, which is on E-20. On 6/1/2000, a code enforcement officer was present on the job site while -- MR. DICKSON: Where are you at? MR. NEALE.' Where are we in Composite Exhibit A? MR. OSSORIO: E-20. MR. DICKSON: E-20, yeah, I didn't hear that part. MR. OSSORIO: Then it states, observe stop work order at 1000 Palm View Drive, Apartment 103; checked apartment, no work being done as through window; observed ma]or renovation being done, period, issued red tag, and you can read through if you want to, but that just shows you corroboration of what I Page 60 March 21~ 2001 witnessed before 6/1/2000 before I turned it over to code enforcement. MR. DICKSON.' Okay. Now, I'm going to ask again, do you have a witness? MR. OSSORIO: We call Dr. Roberta Horton to the stand. MR. DICKSON: Would you please come forward and over here to my right, if you would to that podium. MR. LAIRD: That's your left. MR. DICKSON: I mean your right, my left. Thank you. MR. LAIRD: You're welcome MR. DICKSON: I'm sorry. MR. LAIRD: I'm just trying to help. MR. DICKSON: I'm looking at all these charges. MR. NEALE: There's only two charges on this one, 4.1.8 and 4.1.2. MS. HORTON.' Can you hear my voice loud and clear? MR. DICKSON: Yes, ma'am. Can you state your name, please? MS. HORTON: I'm Roberta Horton. MR. DICKSON.' I need for you to be sworn in, please. (Ms. Horton was sworn in by the court reporter). MR. DICKSON: Can you give me a scenario of your experience with this case and any -- MS. HORTON: First of all, I want to let you know that I've been a member of this county since 1971, a school teacher for 27 years~ retired three years ago to work for the Catholic church, that's my background. I also have a doctorate degree in administration, and I'm also on my second masters, which I'll get next week, and you would stand there and sit there and look at me and say, woman, you are intelligent, how could you let this happen to you. How many times have I read in the paper about being scammed. It started this way. The lady that Mr. Welsh is going to marry came over to the church and has given me a lot of help and volunteer work. Doctor's orders, I had to move from the second apartment to the first apartment because of health. When I knew that I was moving to the first floor apartment, I knew that there was some painting work to be done in there, and I thought -- and I had met Mr. Welsh a couple of time -- that because his girlfriend was so Page 61 March 21, 2001 good to me, that any money that came out of it would go to that family, and that's how that came about. On April 11th, I engaged him. I gave him a thousand dollar check with the idea that he would paint the apartment, and then, of course, there were other things that had to be done. On May 10th, last year, I gave him a $10,000 check. July 12th, I gave him a $500 check. That $500 check was done at coercion, told me if I did not come up with the $500, he would just walk off the job. Okay. I can't go into what this has cost me. MR. JOSLIN: Could you just -- MS. HORTON: All right. My complaint-- MR. JOSLIN: -- could you just go back on that one more time MS. HORTON: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: -- for my notes is all, the dates of the checks, please? MS. HORTON: On 4/11, the day I engaged Mr. Welsh, I gave him a check for a thousand dollars. MR. JOSLIN: That was the day of the contract? MS. HORTON: There was no written contract. Here, again, is trust. I mean -- you know, you've got some stupid women out there, and I'd be the first to admit it. On 5/10, I gave him a check for $t0,000. On 7/12, I gave him a check for $500. He had me go over and pay a paint bill of his that I gave to the paint company for $3,500, and that was transacted on 5/18. This was supposed to be toward the painting. Now, he originally verbally told me 2000 for painting. Then he went to 2,600, and then when I asked him, I thought, well, this 3,500 might be for some other things, but he said, oh, no, that's plus time. When I engaged Mr. Welsh, I asked him -- when we went in, he said, look, this is rotten, this is no good. I said, okay. I trusted him. I says, Tom, promise me something, that any electric work that is done in here, any plumbing work that is done in here will be done by licensed people. He says he knows the people. It will be done, and you'll have my word. I says, Tom, promise me something, that anything you do in here, you will give me a receipt. He gave me his word. Let me show you what his receipts are; writings on paper. I have lots of Page 62 March 21, 2001 this. Finally on -- and many, many times I asked him for receipts, he said this is my receipts, okay. I asked him for the name of the company that shelved my closets so I could verify the receipts. He would not give me the name except he charged me $900. I asked him to tell me where he got all the cabinets from so I could verify the receipts. He would not give me the receipts. I asked for the shutter company. I asked for receipts and receipts. He said, oh, they're in a barrel somewhere. This is all that I got. Then Io and behold, I'm red tagged, okay. He calls me up -- now, I'm working at the church every day. I'm in ill health and much more ill health now because of all this. He says you're red tagged. I says what does that mean. He says, well, they've got to check it out. You got to get a contractor. I says what are you talking about. So, I didn't understand this, and I says, well, are you going to find the contractor. He said, yes. A couple days go by. I called him. He said to me, well, they're going to want money, and I'm thinking, they're going to want money. See, I don't understand this, you know. So, finally, I called Mr. Ossorio. I said I'd better find out what the heck is going on. I called here, and he explained to me I had to get a general contractor. So, one of the priests at the church said to me, why don't you call Bill Spinelli. Now, I only knew Bill Spinelli by name. I saw his face once, and I called him, and I said, Mr. Spinelli, I need your help. The father said -- you know, you kind of put this pressure on somebody, and he said he was willing to help, all right. Then Mr. Spinelli took over at that point, okay, and I guess whatever the process is -- we got red tagged, I think, in the beginning of June. My contract with Mr. Welsh was I was supposed to move into my apartment by June 10th because I was due for surgery. Now the surgery has been held off for another year, okay, because of all -- well, I don't want to get into that. That's another thing. Electric work was done in that apartment. Plumbing work was done in that apartment under Mr. Welsh's watch. To my Page 63 March 21, 2001 knowledge, he was supposed to have -- he promised me he would have licensed people. Builders Glass, I called Builders Glass that came and did the windows without a permit and without a license in this county. I said, why did you do this, and this man was contacted through Mr. Welsh. I said, did you know you had to have a permit. He says, well, we usually work through the permit of the contractor. He says, I called Mr. Welsh, and Mr. Welsh said no permit was needed, okay. Because of that, I already paid to put the window in, I had to pay again to move the window back, and because of that, I had to pay them for a wall to be added to -- I mean~ I could go on and go on, I'll probably -- I'm in more debt now at 65 than I've ever been in my whole life, okay. All of my savings are wiped out, and I didn't have any, because part of my background is, I was 17 years a nun, and so I didn't have that time to build up money. So, it was only the last 15 years that I started saving money, but that's gone. I'm max'd out on credit cards. I just sold the other apartment, which I'll only clear about 10,000. I had to let it go because I'm borrowing against credit cards to make the payments on the other place. That should have been taken -- well, never mind. You're not interested in the money, right? Okay, but what I want you to know is I don't hate that man, but I'm angry, and I don't trust him. When I had to pay for this structure engineer to come in and the permit and so on, I said at least you should cover that. I was able to get a thousand dollars back. He charged me $3,500 for a paint job that has not been completed and still not completed, okay. All right. I still don't have the receipts. I will pay -- if I have to pay a bill and you can give me a receipt and you can show me -- I'll do it. I don't care if I have to work four lobs, I'll do it. MR. DICKSON: How much have you paid out total? MS. HORTON: What I have paid out -- MR. DICKSON.' I've got -- right now, I've got $15,000. MS. HORTON: No, I said sixteen, but it was fifteen. Then on top of that, at this point right now -- I was trying to write down all the notes. At this point right now, it's almost $33,000, and I'm not finished. Page 64 March 21, 2001 MR. DICKSON: Did you contract -- MS. HORTON: again. MR. DICKSON: MS. HORTON: MR. DICKSON: the electricians directly? MS. HORTON: MR. DICKSON: MS. HORTON: owe Mr. MS. MR. MS. paper. Where did the rest of it -- where did we go? Because I have to have work done over Did you contract directly with any of the -- Mr. Spinelli. But did you contract with the plumbers or Under Mr. Spinelli. Only under Spinelli? Everything then was done under Spinelli. I Spinelli almost $3,500, and thanks to God, he has given me time to pay that off. He says whenever you can, Roberta, but I had to pay all these workmen. I mean, I paid -- let me show you this right now. I have here that -- I think I paid close to six to $9,000 -- I just had it here. I'm just so nervous at this point. I'm angry but not hatred, okay. Out-of-pocket, out-of-pocket right now I've paid $32,793, and I'm not finished, plus work is not still completed in my apartment. MR. JOSLIN: Correct me if I'm wrong, but $15,000 of that you have already paid to Mr. Welsh? MS. HORTON: Right. MR. JOSLIN: Not another fifteen. So, in other words, ballpark, what, seventeen, $18,000 is what you got extra besides what you've given him? MS. HORTON: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: What portion of that work was completed that you gave him the money for? I mean, what -- MS. HORTON: Okay. The shelving was done. He charged me $900 for shelving in the closets. MR. DICKSON: You know what would really help -- HORTON: Yes, sir. DICKSON: -- and I don't mean to -- HORTON: You can make copies of these pieces of MR. DICKSON: No, I don't want that. What we're working off of, and I hope you have a copy of it, is this proposal that doesn't have a date, does it guys? It's the one that Mr. Welsh Page 65 March 21, 2001 said that's not signed. MS. HORTON: Well, that's not my contract, sir. That's not mine. I'm Roberta Horton. That's Roberta Rigney. That's a separate contract. MR. DICKSON: Now I'm really confused. MS. HORTON: Then he gets another woman by the name of Roberta. MR. NEALE: Can I enter into something here? MR. DICKSON: Wait a minute. Let me let County square us away here. MR. JOSLIN: Now I'm confused here. MR. LAIRD: I'm lost. MR. DICKSON: What's Rigney doing here? MR. OSSORIO-' There are two Roberta's. The one contract is for the City of Naples, and that's over in Belair. We're trying to show financial harm out of 4.1.8 of what Belair is going to have to go through with getting building permits. We are only showing Dr. Horton as to context to what happened to her with Mr. Welsh back in June. MR. NEALE: I've got a real problem here. MR. LAIRD: Yeah. MR. DICKSON-' I do too. MS. HORTON: It's the two Roberta's, see, that's it. MR. NEALE: No, I've got a real problem in that, who's this complaint being brought by and on behalf of? MR. WELSH: Someone that's not here. MR. OSSORIO: The complaint is addressed to the Board of County Commissioners. We made the complaint. We're using Roberta Horton as to corroboration as to why it's going to be financial harm to the Belair case. MR. NEALE: But which -- which -- because the complaint has to be specific, and it has to be to specific acts performed by this gentleman. What specific acts on what specific jobs are you trying to prove? MR. OSSORIO: We're trying to prove that 4.1.8 committed mismanagement at the Belair case, which would be -- MR. NEALE: But what I'm asking -- because this has to be defensible. What I'm asking you is, on behalf of this board and as Page 66 March 21, 2001 counsel for the board, what specific case are you bringing forward here? What specific instances of doing work outside the scope and financial mismanagement are you trying to prove? At this point -- and I would suggest, and strongly suggest that staff meet with the county attorney and put your case together before you go further on this and before this is brought before this board for decision, because at this point, I'm going to have a very difficult time advising this board as to how to decide on this case. MR. OSSORIO: I believe you got off on a tangent. This is a very simple case. MR. NEALE.' No, it's not. Excuse me, Mr. Ossorio. MR. OSSORIO.' Yes, sir. MR. NEALE: I'm counsel for this board. You do not have your counsel here. What I would strongly suggest, and this is as counsel for this board who I am going to have to give advice to as to how to decide on this matter, that you coordinate with the county attorney's office, who is your counsel, to bring forth the case on which I can more easily advise my client, the board, as to how they need to decide, how they need to evaluate the evidence in this matter. At this point, from my point of view, and I will rely on the board that I advise, I find it difficult to charge this board as to which case is being brought as to what you're trying to prove in what instance here. MR. DICKSON: The only thing I'm going to say is I echo that, because even though you have violations, we also have the power for financial remedies, and that's what I was pursuing here, was to get an absolute dollar figure, exact dollar figure of the financial harm. That can also go into our opinion if this board would rule against Mr. Welsh. MR. NEALE: No, I'm not saying that multiple instances of violation cannot be brought forward. This board has evaluated cases in the past where one contractor was brought forward with 73 different violations, 73 different instances of mismanagement and misconduct under his license, but in order for this board to properly consider this matter, they need to be brought forward in a very -- this is a quasi-judicial proceeding. The matters need to be brought forward in a manner in which Page 67 March 21, 2001 this board, should this matter be appealed, can have a defensible position in a court of law. At this point, I cannot advise my client, the board, that they have a case being brought forward to them that allows them to decide on the matters in front of them. So I would strongly suggest, unless you want me to provide advice to my client that is not something you would necessarily want to hear, that you request a continuance of this matter and that you get with the county attorney's office and put forth a case that I can more clearly give advice to my client, if that's the pleasure of this board. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Balzano. MR. BALZANO: Paul Balzano, contractor licensing. I understand what Mr. Neale is saying. I think that maybe we should put together a Composite Exhibit B and bring the two cases together with Mrs. Horton. Even I'm confused. MR. DICKSON: Let me ask you this. MR. BALZANO: Is that what you want us to do? MR. NEALE: I would suggest -- and I would suggest to coordinate -- Mr. Balzano, I would also suggest coordinating it with Mr. Zachary's office so that it can be brought forward as a very clean-cut case. MR. BALZANO: Put the two together. MR. NEALE: Right. MR. DICKSON: Have we -- the case is not jeopardized at this point, correct? MR. NEALE: The case is not jeopardized at this point. All that will be done, I suggest to the board that -- you've already accepted this as being into evidence, Composite A. You've taken testimony that this matter would be -- I propose that this board can continue this matter until the next hearing date, at which time the case can be completed. MR. DICKSON: Yeah, yeah. Do you understand all this, Mr. Welsh? MR. WELSH: Yes, sir. My -- my problem is that he's making an error and put himself in a bad light as far as legality. I'm telling you that what's being said is not true, but if I say that, you want to continue the case. Page 68 March 21, 2001 If he says something wrong, we can continue it. So, maybe this is a blessing for me, because I will bring in iron horses for everything that's being said. MR, DICKSON.' I think -- Mr. Welsh, I'm not a counselor by any means. I can just give you experience on this board, but I would not take this case lightly. MR. WELSH: I am not taking it lightly, because I have proof in writing to disqualify everything that this young lady has to say, and I was pushed out of the picture by threat. MR. DICKSON: I wouldn't say anything more. We're going to postpone this. MR. WELSH: That's all right. I don't care. It's going to be on record. MR. NEALE: One of the matters that this board needs to consider, and I just want to make sure that the board is -- on record is this, is that the board must -- the charges must be specific in such a manner that the respondent can specifically respond to the charges themselves, and that's why I'm suggesting that the charges need to be more specific so that a specific response can be made and that due process can be afforded, because one of the things that this board prides itself on is due process in all matters. MR. DICKSON: What we're going to do, Mr. Welsh, is the County is going to postpone this case. It is not necessarily going to be the next meeting. MR. WELSH: That's fine. MR. DICKSON.' It could be. MR. WELSH: That's fine. MR. DICKSON: You will be notified by certified mail as to when that meeting is. MR. WELSH: Anything but July. I'm going to be gone for the month of July. MR. DICKSON: It will be before then, I'm sure. MR. WELSH: Thank you. MR. DICKSON: Sorry for the inconvenience. MR. WELSH: Hey, not a problem, man. I'm here to face the music, but I'm not going to stand and let false innuendoes be shot at me, and this lady here, we need to address everything. MR. DICKSON: Let's don't go there. MR. WELSH: She can reconsider what she said. Page 69 March 21~ 2001 MR. DICKSON: We'll see you again. You'll have a chance, okay? MR. WELSH: Hey, man, I live by the right thing. MR. DICKSON: Thank you now. MR. WELSH: I appreciate it. MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Mrs. Horton. No other cases, going on to reports. Do we have any? MR. NEALE: One request that I would like to make of the board, and this is of a personal nature. MR. DICKSON.' Yes, sir. MR. NEALE: We have a meeting scheduled for April 18th next month. If there's any way possible the meeting could be scheduled for April the 11th? MR. LAIRD: May I speak on that? MS. WHITE: Not before taxes? MR. NEALE: Unfortunately, because I've got a matter on the 18th that I should attend. MR. DICKSON: The thing that we need to do on the next meeting, so that you-all understand, we have a case coming that Mr. Neale has to be here. So, this is really not an option. You're also -- there's going to be -- just trust me, it's a ma]or case. Yes. MR. BARTOE: For the record, Tom Bartoe, Collier County licensing compliance officer. I discussed this with Mr. Neale. The case you're referring to was going to be scheduled today. The contractor has been notified that the next meeting will be April 18th, and if he has a defense package, I would appreciate it being in my office April 10th so it can get distributed to the board. Now, I can contact that contractor and see if he would have any problem with the 11th, but I can't give you an answer at this time. MR. DICKSON: I know the case, and I want Mr. Neale here. What's your schedule -- I'm sitting here looking at calendars. Normally we would be April what? MR. BARTOE.' Eighteenth. MR. DICKSON.' What's your schedule the 25th? MR. NEALE: The 25th, theoretically, I'm supposed to be in Russia. MR. DICKSON: As big as that case is, I'd say let's push it to Page 70 March 21, 2001 May. I know they'll have no problem. MR. BARTOE: I can do that. MR. DICKSON: I'll tell the board right now, prepare for an all day in May. No luncheon dates. MR. NEALE: Why don't we look at May 23rd? MR. BARTOE: The normal third Wednesday is what? MR. NEALE: The 16th, and I hate to do it to the board again, but I am already scheduled out of the country on the 16th. MR. DICKSON: Oh, we'll take lunch. We'll take lunch. just saying -- MR. JOSLIN: MR. NEALE: May. Sixteenth of May, did you say? I'm already out of the country on the 16th of MR. BARTOE: Another thing we have to look at is, is the room available? We have it reserved the third Wednesday of every month. MR. DICKSON: And you're out April 18th. MR. NEALE: April 18th, I'll explain to the board, I'm a participant in the Naples Leadership Institute, and it's our last day, graduation day on the 18th. So, that's -- if I have to miss it, I'll have to miss it, but I'd like to be there, so -- MR. DICKSON: Is this room full every day, being used every day? MR. BARTOE: No. If you give me a couple dates right now, we can go check and see if it's -- MR. DICKSON-' Give me a couple of dates in April, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: The 11th, the week before is just fine for me. MR. DICKSON: It doesn't have to be Wednesday. MR. NEALE: The 19th is fine for me. The next day, the 20th is fine for me. MR. DICKSON: Why don't we shoot for those? MR. BARTOE-' Nineteenth or 20th? MR. DICKSON: Yeah, 19th or 20th. If you can't, make the 11th your third choice. MR. BARTOE: If -- as I said, the contractor has already been advised the 18th, to have everything to me the 10th. He may not want to back up a week. MR. DICKSON: Yeah, you may have -- I don't know how much I can say, but -- and I will not mention the name, but you may have three television crews here on the April meeting. This Page 71 March 21, 2001 room -- there will be a lot of people here. MR. BARTOE: Let me check on the 19th and 20th. MR. DICKSON: Any other reports? MR. NONNENMACHER: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. DICKSON: Discussions, did we have a form? MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, in the back of your packet, the board had requested that we look into the form resolution of authorization used by Lee County. We have done that. We have submitted this resolution in your packet for approval to be a form for us to use. Looking over it, I see one typographical error, and that's counting resolution of authorization one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, the tenth line down starts out with contractors' licensing board that the qualify. I submit to you now, it's a typographical error. I have changed that in pencil, and I would like it to read qualifying agent, and then ask this board to approve this. MR. NEALE: There's one other typo, Mr. Nonnenmacher, that I also spotted. Again, the typo, just two lines further below that, it's we further resold and represent, and I think it should be resolved. MR. DICKSON: That's probably a Boston accent that caused that. MR. NEALE: It probably is. MR. NONNENMACHER: What we're asking the board to do, assuming that the typographical errors will be corrected, is to approve this form as a form that we can use. MR. DICKSON: If you happened to miss the meeting of two or three months ago, someone from Lee County brought this form in their packet, and if you read through it, it addresses every single question that ever comes up in a second entity. I don't know how you-all feel about it. MR. JOSLIN: If it answers the question, I'm in favor for it. MR. NEALE.' If this one is filled out and the board -- the board of the corporations adopted this, you know, to really exclude things. MR. DICKSON: It eliminates that mysterious number nine question. If you-all want to include this in the packet that Maggie and Judy give out to second qualifying agents, we need to-- Page 72 March 21, 2001 MR. NEALE: We just need a motion. MR. DICKSON: -- have a motion. MR. NONNENMACHER: One thing I would like to say, Judy has been promoted. She is now secretary to Mr. Perico, and we have a new girl in there, Karen Clemens, who is doing an excellent job, and you'll probably be seeing her or hearing from her as meetings go on and she gets more involved and more educated in her position. MR. DICKSON: Nice move for her. MR. JOSLIN: Just when we get somebody trained. MR. NONNENMACHER: Excuse me? MR. JOSLIN: Just when we get somebody trained, Ed takes them away. MR. LAIRD: We still need a motion, Mr. Dickson? MR. DICKSON: I have a motion to approve this form and include it in the packet. MR. JOSLIN: Second. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor? Any other business? MR. LAIRD: So moved for -- MR. NONNENMACHER: I believe we're still waiting for Mr. Bartoe to return on the dates of next month's meeting. He should be back shortly. MR. DICKSON: Does that need to be in the minutes? MR. NEALE: No, I think we can adjourn and just do it as an addendum to the minutes, probably. MR. LAIRD: Mr. Chairman, may I move for adjournment, please? MR. DICKSON: Need a second. MR. JOSLIN: Second the motion. MR. DICKSON: All those in favor of adjournment? Approved. We are hereby adjourned. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 12:00 p.m. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR'S Page 73 LICENSING BOARD March 21, 2001 LES DICKSON, CHAIRPERSON These minutes approved by the Board on as presented or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING BY: Dawn Breehne Page 74