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CLB Minutes 01/24/2001 RJanuary 24, 2001 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida, January 24, 2001 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRPERSON: Gary Hayes Les Dickson Daniel Gonzalez Arthur Schoenfuss Carol Pahl Sara Beth White Not Present: Richard Joslin Walter Crawford, IV Bob Laird ALSO PRESENT: Patrick Neale, Attorney for the board Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney Bob Nonnenmacher, Chief License Compliance Officer Thomas Bartoe, License Compliance Officer Michael Ossorio, License Compliance Officer Paul Balzano, License Compliance Officer Page I AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE January 24, 2001 TIME: 9:00 A.M. ADMINISTRATION BUILDING .C. OURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III.APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: November 15, 2000 V. NEW BUSINESS: 1. Jenfdt Silva - request to quality 2~ entity. 2. Thomas Nathen (Nat) Drace, Jr. - request to be granted a Plastering license without passing exam. (Has taken the exam four times.) 3. Douglas W. Nichels - request to qualify 2nd entity. Vt. OLD BUSINESS: V~i.PUBLIC HEARINGS: VIII.REPORTS: IX. DISCUSSION: Code Enforcement Investigator Alex Sulecki RE: Tree Removal & Trimming X. NEXT MEETING DATE: February 21, 2001 January 24, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'd like to call this meeting to order, Collier County Contractors' Licensing, January 24th, at 9:09 a.m. Any persons who decide to appeal a decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings pertaining thereto and, therefore, may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made; which record includes that testimony and evidence upon which an appeal is to be based. I'd like to start with roll call to my right. MR. GONZALEZ: Dan Gonzalez. MR. DICKSON: Les Dickson. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Gary Hayes. MS. PAHL: Carol Pahl. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Arthur Schoenfuss. MS. WHITE: Sara Beth White. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Are there any additions or deletions to the agenda? MR. BARTOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, board members. For the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, licensing compliance officer. Under approval of minutes, we do have listed November 15th, 2000. And staff would like to add our December 13th, 2000 workshop. Those minutes also need approved. And staff has no other additions or deletions. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anyone else have any additions or deletions to the agenda? I need a motion to approve the agenda. MR. SCHOENFUSS: I approve -- I move we approve that I'll second it. I have a motion and a second. agenda. MS. PAHL: CHAIRMAN HAYES: favor? Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: All in Okay, approval of the minutes. We do have two sets of minutes in our packet, one of them being the last Contractors' Licensing Board meeting of November the 15th, and then our workshop on December the 13th. You have both those minutes in your packets. Do we want to approve both of those minutes, or we want to approve them one at a time? Anybody? MR. SCHOENFUSS: I move we take them together, both of them, and approve both sets of minutes as stated. Page 2 January 24, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion. MS. PAHL: I'll second it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: favor? Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Need a second. I have a motion and a second. All in Very well. Okay, under new business, Jenfrit Silva, request to qualify second entity. Are you here? We have his packet in our -- his application in our packet. I don't know if we want to consider it without his presence. He was aware of the meeting. MR. BARTOE.' Yes, and he wanted a request to appear here; is told when the next meeting will be. They have been advised. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Is there anything stopping us from reviewing it and approving or disapproving it in their absence? MR. BARTOE: That would be up to Mr. Neale to decide. MR. NEALE: Certainly any of these second entity approvals are based on testimony from the applicant, so, you know, because you always -- the board always holds it as their practice to examine the applicant and ask them questions. So I would say that it would be more appropriate for the board to defer this until -- for further action. Particularly if the board were so inclined as to propose denial of the application, I think the applicant would have an argument of not having been afforded due process. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I've reviewed the packet and I didn't see anything extraordinary or out of the ordinary. I guess there are always some questions, I think you're right, Mr. Neale, that we like to ask just to clarify that this applicant knows his responsibilities, et cetera. MR. NEALE: If the board's so inclined, I think the board could -- the Chair could take a sense of the board to see if there was a sentiment among the board members to approve this matter. If the board seemed as though it were so inclined to approve it, then you could probably take it up in that fashion and avoid the possibility of a challenge by the applicant, and then if the board -- there was a sense that there was some contention, then I would suggest deferring it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anybody on the board have a feeling on this? MS. WHITE: I just had one comment. I didn't understand the Page 3 January 24, 2001 name change. MR. DICKSON: I move that we not hear this. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You make a motion we don't hear it today? MR. DICKSON: I make a motion we do not hear it unless he's running late, he or she, I didn't see the name. If they come in later, we could do it then; otherwise, we postpone it. MR. GONZALEZ: I second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. GONZALEZ: Is that a motion, Les? MR. DICKSON: Yeah. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion, I have a second. Any other discussion? All in favor? Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well, we'll put it off at least till the last of the meeting, and perhaps if they show up, then we can hear it then; otherwise, we'll put it off, postpone it, until they come back and request again. MR. DICKSON: We did have one back in October that didn't show up and we postponed, and we haven't seen him since. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's true. Okay, next order of business, Thomas Nathen Drace, request to be granted a plastering license without passing exam. He has taken the exam four times. Mr. Drace, are you here? Would you come up to the podium, please, sir. I'm going to ask you to be sworn in, sir. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name, for the record? MR. DRACE: Thomas Nathen Drace, Jr. I go by Nat. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And what seems to be the problem with passing the exam? MR. DRACE: I wrote a letter; I don't know if you have copies of it. I hold a business license right now, I hold my drywall license right now. I thought I could breeze through the plastering license fairly easy. I've taken the test four times. I think my close -- highest score is probably a 68, I think, I'm not real sure. The problem I have with the test is that it's outdated, it asks Page 4 January 24, 2001 stuff that is not relevant to the business that we do here, it doesn't ask things that are part of what Collier County does, such as the EIFS systems and stuff like that, which we're seeing more and more of now. There's questions on the test like -- I can't remember all of them, but questions like what is the staple spacing for veneer tape on a wall, which you don't even -- I mean, staple spacing for veneer tape's been out for probably 15 or 20 years. It's a self-stick tape now. They ask you how many questions -- or how many pounds does a few sheets of lathe require, a box weighs 50 pounds, stuff like that. I feel I know this -- the plastering trade as good if not better than a lot of my competitors. I was a estimator for AA Stucco & Drywall for seven years, the head estimator for them for four years by myself. I took them from a six million dollar company up to a 23 million dollar company before I left. Seemed like everything to do with this test is a matter of money. If you want to get a -- if you want to get your grades back early, you pay money for it. If you want to get a review of your test, you pay money for it. If you want a big review of your test, you pay money for it. But they don't tell you any of the answers, they just say this is what you got wrong. I've never taken the review. I've been with people that have taken the review, and they say it's just a waste of time, really. I don't know why I can't get through this. I know the business, I know it well, and I know my request is probably a little out of the ordinary, but I would like you to consider it. And if you have any questions as to my capability, I mean, I would, you know, take any questions on that way. But I do know this trade. I just can't get through the test. Just me answering a couple of questions doesn't mean that I don't know this business. MR. SCHOENFUSS: What marks did you get on the test? MR. BARTOE: You have it in your packet. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Results are the second page from his letter. MR. BARTOE: I believe the last time was in December, the highest score of 64. MR. GONZALEZ: Excuse me, you say you've never attended a review? MR. DRACE: I've never attended a review after the test, no. Page 5 January 24, 2001 MR. GONZALEZ: I know in my personal experience, it took me two times to pass my state certified test. But if I hadn't have taken the review after my first try, I probably would have taken it three or four times, too. The review was crucial in me passing it the second time for me. MR. DRACE: But my objection -- it's not even an objection. The thing is they're asking questions on that test, and I don't know if anybody's reviewed it, that don't pertain to anything anymore. MR. GONZALEZ: That's irrelevant what they ask you. It's required that you get those questions right, regardless of, you know, if you think they're pertinent or not. And if you go to the review, you'll know how to answer them, even if they're -- you know, whether you think they're pertinent or not. If you take the MR. DRACE: Are they telling you in these reviews -- are they giving you the correct answers? MR. GONZALEZ: I know that when I took it, yes, they did. MR. DRACE: I mean, they tell you upfront, we won't give you the answers. We'll tell you what you missed, but we're not going to tell you what's right. I mean, this is what they tell you upfront. And I've been in Collier County for about between 11 and 112 years. And I've been in the stucco drywall business for probably 20, 25 years. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Is this the examination that's prepared by what used to be Block and now it's Experior, or whatever it is? MR. BARTOE: Yes, sir. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Do we have any information as to when this test was last upgraded? MR. BARTOE: No, sir. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Do we have any information as to what the passing grade was? What happened all the other people that took the test? MR. DRACE: I'll tell you what, I asked the question the last couple of times that I've taken it and no one passed it. No one passed this test the last few times that I took it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Drace, just as a matter of curiosity, I'm not understanding why there is a drywall contractors' license and a plaster and stucco license. Why aren't they the same? Page 6 January 24, 2001 What differentiates -- MR. DRACE: I mean, they're two separate trades. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It is two separate trades? MR. DRACE: It is two separate tra -- I mean, they're listed as two separate trades, but they go kind of hand-in-hand. I mean, I know, Gary, you're in the plumbing business and stuff and you know that part of it, but it's like with drywall, you know, it's -- you almost have to package the drywall and stucco to -- down here it just seems like drywall and stucco are to go together as a -- when you're bidding work and stuff like that you have a much better chance of obtaining a job if you can handle both the inside and outside of them. MR. NEALE: It appears, just if you look at the description of the two trades in the ordinance, that drywall, the way our ordinance is written, is a subset of plastering and stucco. A drywall contractor is a more tightly defined contractor license than is plastering and stucco. Plastering and stucco, in relevant part, says those who are qualified to coat surfaces with a mixture of sand or other aggregate gypsum, plaster, Portland cement or quicklime and water, or any combination of such materials such as to create a permanent surface coating, including lathing and drywall. Whereas the drywall contractor says those who are qualified to install gypsum drywall products to wood and metal studs, wood and steel joists, and metal runners in buildings of unlimited area and height. The scope of the work shall include the preparation of the surface over which the drywall product is to be applied, including the placing of metal studs and runners and all necessary drywall preparation trim. Now, if you remember, there were some recommendations on the board to make some minor tweaking to that to add wood studs and so forth, but you can see that, at least the way the ordinance is written, drywall is a subset of plastering, so plastering is a broader license, at least in my interpretation. MR. DRACE: And plastering, too. They consider veneer hard coat plaster. And we do veneer plaster in our drywall. That's acceptable. And the same guys that do the veneer are the same guys that do the stucco. I don't know why they call it plastering. And they're asking questions about rock lathe and stuff like that in the stucco test, which I haven't seen that around in years and Page 7 January 24, 2001 years and years. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm just having trouble wondering how they could engineer and design two separate exams. Now, it's obviously a significant enough separation that even the state figures it should have two different exams. But, you know, you go in there and you pass the drywall exam but you can't pass the plastering exam, what's the difference between the two exams? What do they do into in the drywall -- MR. DRACE: Honestly, the drywall is fairly current, as far as I'm concerned, you know. And it's -- the questions that they ask are, you know, semi normal questions that somebody might ask you about how to do drywall and metal framing and veneer hard coat and stuff like that; whereas, the stucco is -- and I'm just telling you my own opinion and the fact that I've been in this for so long. It's an outdated test. It just asks stuff that doesn't pertain to what we do anymore. I mean, there are certain things in it that are relevant, yes. MS. PAHL: Mr. Drace, let me ask you a question about the exam. Did you say nobody passed it or nobody you new passed it? MR. DRACE: No, when I took -- the last two times I took it, I specifically asked, when I went up to find my grades, if anybody had passed it that took it that particular time, and both times I was told the last two times, nobody passed it. MS. PAHL: How many people took it, do you have any idea? MR. DRACE: No, I don't have any idea how many took it. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Is there any equivalent state license or state examination? MR. NEALE: There is one for the drywall, I believe. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do you know, Mr. Neale-- MR. SCHOENFUSS: Is there one for stucco? MR. NEALE: I'm not sure about that, but I believe there is one for drywall. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do you have a copy of 489 with you? MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Would you perhaps look at the drywall and see if it includes stucco within it? MR. NEALE: I will do that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That may be a factor. If they're combining both of them, we may have to look at that and see Page 8 January 24, 2001 why we have two separate licenses. Mr. Bartoe, you got any input on why there are two separate licenses? MR. BARTOE: No, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm just trying to confirm -- just trying to ask the question of what is the science difference between the two that you could pass the drywall exam and not pass the plastering exam. Is plastering more like a concrete exam rather than a hanging drywall? MR. DRACE: Yeah, I mean, the method of putting it on is different, where drywall you're using drywall boards and stuff like that, where -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: You do tape the joints and drywall, don't you? MR. DRACE: You tape the joints. And veneer hard coat is a finished kind of like stucco, in a sense, because you're mixing it. And it's a -- you have to cover the drywall surface. Or if you're even doing it on wire lathe, which you can do, it's the same thing. Whereas, stucco is a cementitious product, and, you know MR. SCHOENFUSS: It seems like -- MR. DRACE: -- knowing the codes and the county and stuff like that. THE COURT REPORTER: Could you repeat your question, please? MR. SCHOENFUSS: I wonder what specific exams we're talking about. On this printout we have plastering listed three times. And is that the same examination each one of the three times, or are they different examinations? MR. BARTOE: Mr. Schoenfuss, it's on there four times. That one with the dark black line is also a -- if you'll notice, the first time he took the test was December of '97. On that day, he took all three tests, drywall, plastering, business and law. And he passed drywall, business and law. Then he retook plastering July 8th of 2000, November 4th of 2000 and December 2nd of 2000. MS. PAHL: What is the passing score? MR. BARTOE: 75 in our county. Some jurisdictions I believe allow 70. MR. GONZALEZ: Mr. Drace-- Page 9 January 24, 2001 MR. SCHOENFUSS: Well, it seems to me that if we deny this gentleman's application, we may be doing him an injustice; and if we accept it, we may be setting quite a precedent. It will come up again and again and again from everybody that takes an examination four times that doesn't pass it. And it seems that we're developing two separate issues here: One is the circumstances of a particular applicant and the other one is challenging the validity of an examination that's been accepted by the state and is being given to a number of applicants. Can we separate the challenge in the -- whether or not it's a good examination from the circumstances of this one particular gentleman? MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, if I may, this board has heard cases like this many times before, and we have in our ordinance that if this board feels experience is that great that makes testing superfluous, they can grant a license. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's what I was concerned. In his letter of request here, he cites the fact that Borah, Craig and Barber he's done considerable amount of work for. But had you brought us in an affidavit from them attesting to that, I think it would have leant a little more credibility to it. I think you're exactly right, before I'm able to do anything with it, I'm going to have to have a little bit more testimony to your experience in lieu of it. You're exactly right. MR. NEALE: Right. The board, as Mr. Nonnenmacher correctly points out, has ruled on this before. And under Section 22-184(C), this is a referred application, what we're -- what it's called in the ordinance. And as Mr. Nonnenmacher correctly points out, there are parts that is relevant, says the board may consider the applicant's relevant experience in the specific trade, and based upon such experience may waive testing requirements if convinced that the applicant is qualified by experience, where such competency testing would be superfluous. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Quite simple. MR. NEALE: Quite simple. The board must consider evidence presented by the applicant and the contractor licensing supervisor, and shall determine from that evidence whether the applicant is qualified or unqualified for the trade in which application has been made. The board also must issue findings Page 10 January 24, 2001 of fact and conclusions of law, which the board has always done, so that's -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anybody-- MR. GONZALEZ: Yeah, I have another question for Mr. Drace. Where have you been working since AA Stucco & Drywall? MR. DRACE: I went with Wall Systems for awhile. I know Russell Budd pretty well. And when his estimator, which was my best friend, passed away, I took his position and helped Russell for about a year or so. I started a company called Mudslingers, which I still hold the license for. And I hold a license for a company called R&B Enterprises. MR. NEALE: What I would suggest to the board, if they feel they have inadequate evidence to make the decision today, is to request that Mr. Drace come back with some affidavits and -- for another hearing. MR. BARTOE: May I make a suggestion? Would it be possible for the board to approve this plastering license if Mr. Drace showed to staff affidavits of experience of "X" amount of years? MR. NEALE: I'd have trouble with that, simply because it's evidence that's presented to the board that they have to rule on. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I agree. Anybody feel like anything any different on the board? MR. DICKSON: I'd like to add one thing. If it's possible to get it, and I'm not doubting your word, please don't take it this way, but I'd like to get a letter from the testing agency of how many people took this test and how*many passed so that we've got -- we have a responsibility to verify what he's saying. Normally -- MR. DRACE: And I'm only saying Collier County. When I went up to the -- you know, here to check my grades in Collier County, nobody passed it at that point. MR. DICKSON: See 15 percent -- in the range of 15 percent is normal. That's why we see a lot of them four and five times. There's a lot of, you know, people that had to take the test six times or more to get the test. People don't prepare initially, so we do get about a 15 percent pass rate. But I like that also, because everyone appreciates their license a lot more. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Dickson, I do believe possibly that our Page 11 January 24, 2001 office staff does receive a list after every test of everyone's scores. I will check into that. MR. DICKSON: I mean, if no one passed it, it just promotes the validity of his claim. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's a good idea. MR. DRACE: Well, and the person I, you know, talk to all the time over there is Maggie and that's who -- you know, she gives me the grades. I mean, she tells me whether I passed it or not. And I ask her at the time, I said, did anybody pass the stucco part or the plastering part of this trade for the last two times I've been here, and she said no, nobody's passed it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: In your business activities with Mudslingers, Mr. Drace, Mudslingers are just drywailers? MR. DRACE: Drywall, metal framers. CHAIRMAN HAYES: No stucco. MR. DRACE: You have to understand, they are not a stucco contractor, but we did do a stucco job during that time. MR. GONZALEZ: Mr. Drace, you are currently doing interior plastering, which is hard coat. MR. DRACE: Yes, hard coat. Which is no different than -- I say it's no different, there is a difference, but it's basically the same as stucco. MR. GONZALEZ: Well, the crews that do the hard coat plastering are the same crews that do the stucco? MR. DRACE: Yes, same crews. Those -- the veneer hard coat people are the same people that do stucco. MR. GONZALEZ: And those guys don't tape and finish drywall. Are they in different -- MR. DRACE: They tape and hard coat. With veneer hard coat you're using a blue board, you're putting a what we call sticky tape over the joints and put in a finish that's pretty much mixed like stucco and stuff like that. It's a hard surface. MR. GONZALEZ: Well, that's not my question. My question is are those the same -- if you have a job that just calls for taping and drywall finishing, are those the same guys that do the hard coat? MR. DRACE: No. The drywall people are separate from your veneer people, veneer plasterers. MR. GONZALEZ: So you already have plasterers that work for you. Page t2 January 24, 200t MR. DRACE: Yes. MR. GONZALEZ: That was my line of questioning here. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to suggest that if the board wants to go any further with this or deny it, that Mr. Drace, if you'll bring us in here nothing less than four affidavits from customers and contractors that you've worked with, including AA Stucco, attesting to your experience in the trade. And Mr. Bartoe, if you're going to bring us the last test results, percentage of pass and failure? MR. BARTOE: We're trying to find out right now. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It's not going to help us today. I don't think that's going to be a big factor with anybody here. If we don't have some physical testimony in front of us attesting to his qualifications, I don't know that anybody here would be interested in approving a license on that level. So if you could -- MR. DICKSON: Could I make a suggestion? Maybe while -- because it's going to be, you know, a little bit of time before we meet again, try one of those preparation courses. I have found they're excellent. Try one of the -- MR. DRACE: You're talking about the preparation course. I don't think there is a preparation course for plastering and stucco. There's a course after you take the test, and it's the review of the test that you've already taken. That's the -- MR. DICKSON: You mean contractors' exam and places like that don't have -- MR. DRACE: No. And I did specifically call to see if there was a thing that you could take ahead of time for this to prepare for that. There's nothing that I'm aware of that allows to you do that. The only thing they offer is after you've taken the test and if you didn't pass it, they'll let you come in, as long as you pay them some money to -- there's a $10 review and then there's a $50 review and neither one of those tell -- all they do is tell you what you've missed but not what the answers are. MR. GONZALEZ: If you'll get -- if I remember correctly on my review, they tell you what you missed and then they go over the problem, and then when you go over the problem, you see right where you messed up. I mean, that's where it helped me. I said -- I mean, it like rang a bell, right when they're doing the problem on the overhead projector. I could see exactly where I messed up. And then when I took the test, I knew just what to do. Page 13 January 24, 2001 MR. DRACE: I mean, it's still questions, though. It's like shots and -- you know, questions about shots and pins. What's the lightest load, a green, a brown, a red or a gray. Well, brown is pretty much the lowest that we ever used. I never heard of a gray. I finally found somebody after this that have ever heard of a gray shot. And I guarantee you, I asked every drywall and stucco contractor that I know of. Nobody knew what a gray shot was. Well, one -- finally one supplier said yeah, they do supply it. It's like shooting in a styrofoam. So, I mean, that is an answer that I know I missed. It's a gray shot. But nobody had heard of it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anybody on the board have any other input? Is anybody-- MR. SCHOENFUSS: Is this a multiple choice test? MR. DRACE: A good part of it's multiple choice and a good part -- well, I guess it's all multiple choice, but some of it is they'll give you a room that's got doors in it and sizes and tell you to figure out how many pieces of lathe you need to -- to lathe this room, walls and ceilings and take out for doors or not take out for doors, or if doors are over two feet, you know, take it out, and if they're under, leave them there, and different questions like that. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Are there four choices for every test? MR. DRACE: I think it is four choices, yes. MR. SCHOENFUSS: On one of these tests you got a score of 28. MR. DRACE: That was my first test, I think. I thought that I would breeze through that thing. MR. SCHOENFUSS: But if there were four questions and four possible answers to every question, and you didn't know anything about it at all, or if I took the test and I didn't know anything about it, and I guessed at every one of them, theoretically I'd come out with a score of 25. MR. DRACE: Yeah. I also took two other tests that day. Not that that's an excuse, but that was an eight-hour, nine-hour day, too. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anybody on the board have any other suggestions? Mr. Drace, did you understand what I suggested for you? MR. DRACE: You'd like to get some kind of-- Page 14 January 24, 200t CHAIRMAN HAYES: Get me four affidavits -- MR. DRACE: Four affidavits. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- from customers and contractors that you've worked with, AA Stucco being one of them. MR. DRACE: Only problem I have, and I'll try and get that, Gary, but Larry Andrews and I, because we parted ways, and I was in direct competition with Larry in the drywall business, especially with BCB, Larry and I don't have real strong feelings for each other. MS. WHITE: So you can't get a recommendation from BCB? MR. DRACE: I could probably get one from BCB, yes. Yeah, but that would only be one. I can get -- I mean, I can get Carlson Harris, probably Kraft. I've got a lot of people I can -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: We just need something physical to attest to your experience, Mr. Drace. MR. NEALE: And the staff has affidavit forms, so -- MS. WHITE: And I'm more interested in recommendations from the larger companies than I would be from individual homeowners. MR. DRACE: No, I will give you reputable companies here. That's all I deal with anyways, so -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other thoughts on it? Very well, Mr. Drace, we'll just -- we'll hold off on acting on this today. MR. DRACE: You need these, I assume, when -- if I get them to you, Gary, when -- would I wait till the next meeting, or what? CHAIRMAN HAYES: At the next meeting we'll review it again. MR. DRACE: All right, thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. DRACE: And where do I get these affidavits? MR. BARTOE: You can get the forms from Maggie. Tell her you just need affidavits for your experience in your plastering. And after you get those filled out, bring them back in to Maggie and tell her they're for my attention. MR. DRACE: Okay. I appreciate your time. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you. Okay, moving along, Douglas W. Nichols, request to qualify second entity. Mr. Nichols, are you here? Would you come up to the Page 15 January 24, 2001 podium, please, sir?. I'd like to have you sworn in. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name, sir?. MR. NICHOLS: Douglas Nichols. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for looking for a second entity qualifying? MR. NICHOLS: I just want to qualify Jerry for a short period of time. He was working at a company called R&H Electric. He was going to buy that company and the owner died, and Jerry needs to make a living. So I've known Jerry for 20 years. He come to me, says, "Doug, can you license me for awhile?" He's going to start his own company called Emergency One. I said, "No problem, Jerry, I'd rather license you and work with you than a lot of people in town, so --" CHAIRMAN HAYES: What business do you qualify now? MR. NICHOLS: The Electric Connection. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Is that an ongoing electrical contractor business? MR. NICHOLS: That's me -- yes. MR. GONZALEZ: Are you going to be an officer of Emergency One? MR. NICHOLS: If I have to be. You know, whatever I have to do. I consider this to be a short period of time this thing going to happen. So, you know, whatever legalities I have to do, yes. But he took his test in November, didn't get a passing grade, he's going to take his test again in March, and I expect him to pass at that time and be licensed and on his own. MR. NEALE: There's a resolution of authorization in the packet from Lee County -- which I have to say is a pretty interesting form that we may want to look at for our county -- that authorizes Mr. Nichols to -- that he is legally empowered to act for Emergency One in all matters connected with his contracting business and has the authority to supervise construction, using exactly the language from the ordinance. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're saying that you'd like to see something like that in our second entity packet 'application? MR. NEALE: Make everybody's life easier. But it also does, at least as to Lee County licensing authorities, authorize him to act. Page 16 January 24, 2001 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I like that better than requiring him to be an officer. MR. NEALE: This precisely reflects the language in the ordinance. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, are you looking at that? MR. BARTOE: Is this the resolution -- MR. NEALE: Authorization. MR. BARTOE: -- of authorization? MR. NEALE: Yeah. MR. BARTOE: Yes. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Could we repeat, please, the name of the company you're qualifying now? MR. NICHOLS: The Electric Connection of Southwest Florida, Incorporated. MR. SCHOENFUSS: And who is currently qualifying Emergency One Electric? MR. NICHOLS: I am qualifying him right in Lee County right now. We have to come before you before we -- Collier County. He's real close. MR. DICKSON: Question for you. Looking at your insurance certificate, of course I see the one for the liability, but the one for the Workmen's Comp is something outsourcing, Inc. MR. NICHOLS: Omni Outsourcing. MR. DICKSON: What's that? MR. NICHOLS: It's a payroll company that I run all my employees through. MR. DICKSON: Oh, okay. MR. NEALE: It's employee leasing. MR. DICKSON: Okay, I just hadn't heard of it. MR. $CHOENFUSS: The letter from the Florida Department of State is addressed to Thomas Wanderon & Associates. What type of company is that? MR. NICHOLS: I don't understand. MR. NEALE: I would guess it's their attorney. MR. SITZLAR: Accountant. MR. NEALE: Or accountant. MR. SCHOENFUSS: The letter in the packet referencing the Articles of Incorporation -- MR. NEALE: Yeah, that's-- MR. SCHOENFUSS: -- for Emergency One Electric. Page t7 January 24, 2001 MR. NEALE: Yeah, that's either their attorney or their accountant. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Okay. Just wondering. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Chairman, I see everything in order. I move that the request be approved. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion, I need a second. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? All in favor? Opposed? (No response.} CHAIRMAN HAYES: It's a done deal. MR. NICHOLS: Cool. MR. BARTOE: Not yet, it isn't. I have his paperwork. Mr. Nichols, I -- staff would prefer if you wait till tomorrow and come in and see Maggie, because I have to get your folder back to her and everything else. MR. NICHOLS: Okay. Do I have to come in or can Jerry come in and take care of it? MR. BARTOE: I believe you would have to come in. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're the qualifying agent. MR. NEALE: Go ahead. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay? MR. NICHOLS: So go see Maggie tomorrow. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you, Mr. Nichols. MR. NICHOLS: Thank you. MR. NEALE: While we're on the topic, though, what I would suggest to the board, having seen this resolution of authorization, is I would propose that staff have Maggie or Judy type it up and bring it back to this board for approval as part of this board's procedures. And then they could utilize it for second entity packets. We're going to be moving more towards this direction with having the -- you know, once we're finished, revising the state second entity form. But I think this resolution here done in this fashion does a very good job of answering the question of are you legally qualified to act for the company. Well, he's -- the company has signed that he is, and we've got him -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Seems to make life a lot simpler. A lot Page 18 January 24, 2001 of the questions we ask are answered right there with this one form. MR. NEALE: And then give -- you know, if the board, once it adopts the, which it already has, the other form for second entity application and then add this as part of the procedures, I think second entities will go a lot smoother than they have. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other thoughts on that, staff? MR. BARTOE: I agree. I'm one step ahead of you, I had that note written down. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Super. Okay, we can move along with the agenda. Under old business, I think the only old business that we had was reviewing our amendments to the ordinance, to the licensing ordinance, and the only thing I want to do is make sure that we keep bringing it up until we finally get those written up. MR. NEALE: Mr. Zachary and I both got -- we exchanged them by E-mail, so we both have the same copy of the ordinance, and we've started making some revisions. We just weren't able to get all the revisions done. He and I are going to get together sometime in February and plow through it, you know, essentially spend the whole day going through and getting it done, and then we'll have it for you at the next meeting. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I got a lot of input outside of our meeting after our meeting about how there were people that were impressed with us actually making such an effort to get with the public on ordinance revisions. There's not a whole lot of laws, statutes or ordinances in the county, city, state or nation that there's that much willingness to ask for public support and comment. And so it's kind of nice to know that the public does have a little level of comfort in the fact that they do have some input to an ordinance revision. And it was kind of nice to hear some of the comments and appreciation from some people. Okay, public hearings, we have none. Reports? Mr. Bartoe, are there any reports of any kind? MR. BARTOE: Staff has none. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We keep asking for reports. I don't know how often we've ever heard a report, but we keep asking for them. And under discussion, we've got a code enforcement investigator regarding tree removal and trimming. We have some Page 19 January 24, 2001 paperwork in our packet regarding that, and I believe, Mr. Bartoe, did you hand us this information? MR. BARTOE: Yes. That was part of your packet that Alex Sulecki from code enforcement, provided. And we can move her to reports from discussion, if you'd like to. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Hi. MS. SULECKI: Good morning. How are you? For the record, my name is Alexandra Sulecki, I'm an environmental specialist in the Code Enforcement Department. And for purposes of our discussion today, I'll also tell you that I'm a certified arborist. I don't know if you're familiar with that designation. Anybody have any questions about that? CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think we're about to get familiar with it. MS. SULECKI: Okay. The certified arborist has to attend some training sessions and undergo -- it's approximately a three-hour test and maintain that certification with continuing education credit units. And the -- what is taught in order to be a certified arborist is the biology of trees, pruning techniques, cabling, climbing, anything to do with trees. It's a national standard, it applies all over the United States. Well, what I'm here today to discuss with you are some problems I'm having with landscapes. We have had our current landscape code that I think I provided a copy of the pertinent sections in there. It's the pruning and maintenance code since 1991. And these codes apply to required vegetation. This would be trees and shrubs on condos, anywhere there's common ground. There was a landscape plan that was required or on commercial property where you know there are landscape plans. The purpose of these codes is to protect our urban forest. And how it's done is the application of the national standards that were developed by the National Arborist Association. And I have enclosed these in the packet as well. That's the NCA 300 standards. There's lots of good reasons for these standards and applying them on our urban trees. In my experience, what happens to urban trees is that they are -- when they're put in, because they're required, they sometimes are maintained, but often they are not maintained. And over time they decline and they die and they're not replaced. That's why we have these Page 20 January 24, 200t standards, so that trees that are required to be there stay there and they stay there in a healthy way. So today I'm here to ask for your help in enforcing these standards with licensed contractors. Hatracking occurs for different reasons. I don't know how familiar you are with the term hatracking, what it means. I have passed something out about hatracking. But does anybody have any questions about that before we go, so I'm not saying things you don't understand? MR. DICKSON: I do. And I understand hatracking and topping. My question is, though, like I'm in a commercial district where we have power lines, and every year every tree on that block is topped and not allowed to grow to what would be its normal height. So how does that differ from what you're talking about? MS. SULECKI: We do have problems out there. And that's one of the problems. Trees are not supposed to be planted under power lines, but they often are. Generally these are older properties where we didn't have the kind of oversight and review that we do today. 1991, for example, power lines were required to be reported on landscape plans. But before that they weren't. So we have a lot of problems. Florida Power and Light has a special dispensation to top trees, because it's for health and safety reasons for the electric line. When property owners top trees that are directly under power lines, that's a special situation that I work with the property owner to see that there are ways to do that, to maintain that line clearance without topping the whole tree. And that's not the particular situation that I'm here to discuss with you today. That would be an extenuating circumstance. Well, hatracking occurs for different reasons. In my two and a half years of enforcing these codes, the county, what I've come to see, is that there are lots of problems in the tree trimming industry. One of them is that there's a lot of semi skilled or unskilled labor. We have property managers and condominium boards that don't have the urban forest as their primary goal in trimming or maintaining their landscapes. It's often based on economics. They're looking for the low bidder. And they often tell the tree trimmer to cut it back hard so we don't have to do it Page 21 January 24, 2001 for a long time. I hear that a lot. Or the way we did it up north. And the tree trimmers tell me that they have to do what the customer says or the customer is going to hire somebody else. So we have kind of a multi-pronged problem here that -- trying to work with through education. I have written articles for our contractors through our Development Services bulletin. I have a letter that I passed out to you too that I would like to send to all licensed contractors. Because I would like them to be aware of the rules before we -- you know, we don't want to blind-side them here with the rules. I want them to know what the rules are and we want them to follow them. The case that I'm here today to discuss with you is a little bit different in that I sometimes hear property owners who contract with a tree trimmer to do some tree trimming, and they assume the tree trimmer who is licensed understands the regulations in this county. And the tree trimmer, through various reasons, my guess is because he's got semi-skilled labor or because he's trying to do the job fast to make more money to get to the next job, and it takes time to properly trim a tree, that he damages the trees of a commercial or condo association on that property. And what happens then, if the trees are severely damaged, the code requires that the property owner replace the trees. Now, I don't require people to replace every single hatrack tree. It depends on what kind of tree it is, where it is, how extensive the damage is. That's where I use my arborist experience. But some trees are damaged to the point where they're not going to function for the property, they're going to be ugly for a long time, they're sitting on our major corridors, they have to be replaced. And I included in your packet a particular case that I'm working on right now where this very thing happened. And I received a fax from the tree trimmer this morning, and I'd be happy to pass you out a copy of it here, too. He agrees with my assessment, and he has voluntarily agreed to replace four of the trees on that property. This is a good businessman. But I often run into people who do not want to do that because the codes say that the owner, the property owner, has to replace the tree. I don't think that's fair. So what I'd like to do is to be able to bring a licensed Page 22 January 24, 200t contractor before this board, if he has done work where the property owner has simply asked him to trim the trees and he has done this type of work, damaged the trees where the contractor will be responsible for replacing the trees. This is not in every situation. Sometimes the property owner bears some responsibility if, you know, he's told the contractor to do this work. And in that case, I would split the responsibility up between the tree trimmer and the property owner and perhaps cite the tree trimmer and work with the condo or commercial manager to maybe replace several extremely damaged trees and educate them about what the codes are. MR. NONNENMACHER: Alex, if I can interrupt for one minute. I believe we should go one step further with this. If we asked the general contractor -- if a customer asked the general contractor to violate the code and he did in fact violate our code, we would certainly define that as a willful and deliberate code violation, and he would be before this board or before a state board. I believe education is the best procedure to follow, and by example, if we would bring some of these tree trimmers in here after a certain grace period when this information is handed out to them, I think the word will get around that they are obligated to follow county code, whether it be a building code or a Land Development Code. And I think faulty workmanship would be the proper section to bring them in here under. I don't think it's any excuse that a tree trimmer can say well, the people told me to do that. He's got to have responsibility in his trade. He is licensed and is required to know all the codes of this county. So I would go a step further. I couldn't excuse a contractor if a customer said, you know, do it this way and do it that way. And yeah, he might lose the job and another one will get it, but that other one would be here before you. And that word will get out, and finally the customer will not rule the contractor, just as in the building areas. MR. NEALE: But I'd suggest there's really three different avenues whereby contractor licensing staff could approach this, three different sections of the ordinance. I'll use the codified version, just for simplicity sake. It's 22-201, sub-paragraph 6, Page 23 January 24, 2001 which says that this is a -- this is a list of the violations that -- things that are considered violations and may bring someone before this board for discipline. Sub-paragraph 6 is disregards or violates in the performance of his contracting business in the county any of the building, safety, health, insurance or Workers' Compensation laws of the state or ordinances of this county. So that's one. They don't even have to do it willfully, if they disregard them, or violate them, they're automatically subject to discipline by this board. Number two is the section that was brought forth before, which is sub-paragraph 10, which is failing to promptly correct faulty workmanship or promptly replace faulty materials installed contrary to the provisions of the construction contract. That one I would suggest, even though it was brought forward as being the primary one to go under, I would suggest is the one that's most difficult to bring forth a case, because in that instance, there would have to be shown that it was faulty workmanship in that it does not meet the accepted standards of Collier County. Well, accepted standards are harder to prove than violations of code. And so in paragraph six you have the violation of codes, if they violated the code, then they automatically are subject to discipline. Faulty workmanship is commonly used, as this board knows, in front of this board for something where -- and Ms. Sulecki brings forth one of the points. If they perform a job in violation of the code and the owner is required then to replace the tree, that would certainly be faulty workmanship or faulty workmanship in such a way that it costs the owner money. Well, as this board has set forth as its policy, costing the owner additional money is always something that this board goes after. So I'd suggest that's number two. And then number three is the one Mr. Nonnenmacher suggests, which is sub-paragraph 24, which is misconduct on the practice of contracting, defined as willfully violating applicable building codes or laws. So the board really could have, if it so chooses, three ways of approaching this: Either for departing from -- disregarding or violating the codes, failing to correct workmanship, i.e., after they're cited and are forced to replace trees, that the contractor would be liable for that, and number three, misconduct in the Page 24 January 24, 2001 practice of contracting, willfully violating codes. So that's just my take on that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Neale-- MR. NONNENMACHER: I also would like to point out one more thing. That doesn't mean they'll be a barrage of licensed tree trimmers in here. What will happen is what is happening right now. We will bring them into the office and we will advise them of what they did wrong and how to correct it and give them an opportunity to correct it. The only people that you will see in here are people who fail to correct. MR. NEALE: And following on with what Mr. Nonnenmacher brings up there under Section 22-202, sub-paragraph 2 of our ordinance, that's the minor violations provision, whereas the contractor licensing supervisor designee first is required to issue a notice of noncompliance to get -- because the whole purpose of the statute and the ordinance is to say make people comply, not to punish them. And so this is the first step of the contractor licensing office, which they do already is issue the notice of noncompliance, try and get people into compliance, and then if they don't, bring them before the board. I believe I'm correct, aren't I, Mr. Nonnenmacher, that's the process? MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think that's what I'm trying to get at. I don't want this board to be utilized as a tool for enforcing tree trimming ordinances throughout Collier County. I would suggest before it's over with, that would be all that we would have on our agenda. There's probably often enough violations that it keeps you quite busy chasing them around to begin with. And if we were the instrumental tool to enforce the ordinance every single time, I'm sure that we would probably have way more activity than we bargained for. MS. SULECKI: Only on a limited number of cases would I be coming to you for assistance. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, as we were stating on repeated offenders, persistence that they refuse to come in compliance, and it's becoming a real hazard, of course, there's no question about that. Mr. Balzano? MR. BALZANO: Paul Balzano, contractor licensing officer. Going along with what Alex is saying, in fairness, though, to Page 25 January 24, 2001 the contractors, in 1994 somebody in power decided that we were going to license these gentlemen. Up until '94, they had an occupational license. So like everything else we've done, we said you're going to be licensed. All they take is a business and law exam. While we're rewriting the ordinance, why don't we put in there that they take in that exam on how to trim trees? They just take an exam on business and law. They do not answer one question on how to cut a tree, because we wanted to license them. So -- and we have numerous licenses like this where they just take a business and law exam. There isn't any practical questions in that exam. So while we're doing the ordinance over, maybe we should see if we can change that exam. MS. SULECKI: I don't know how deeply you want to go into this, but I did bring some pictures just to show you what I'm seeing out there and what the problems are. MR. NEALE: Just if I may, Mr. Balzano, do you know if there is a block exam or Experior exam for tree trimming? MR. BALZANO: I have no idea. All I know is that when they come in and request a license for tree trimming and I believe landscaping, too, it's just a two-hour business and law exam. MR. NEALE: Would it be possible, because, you know, as you know, Mr. Zachary and I are going to be working on drafting it, if it's the board's pleasure, we'd be happy to put that into the drafting, if you could let us know if there's an exam. MR. BARTOE: I will guess, before we look, there is no exam for tree trimming. And if we want to come up with an exam, I would think it would have to be some type of a county exam that Alex Sulecki could help us with. MS. SULECKI: Broward County is in the process right now of licensing tree trimmers, and they are using certain certifications for a Class A and a B license. An A license, you can get that if you have some sort of degree in horticulture, if you have some sort of certificate in horticulture, or if you're a certified arborist. And a B license, I believe they are getting some sort of a test together for. MR. DICKSON: Can I take the floor for a minute? Let me for just a minute be a friendly adversary, okay, and give you three cases. First of all, I wasn't aware that this even existed. Number two, I wasn't aware it was a problem. But for Page 26 January 24, 2001 example, one case, I mean, I live in Collier County, but I have property interest in Lee County. I had two lots that had over 70 pine trees that the property's over 30 years old and all of a sudden pine trees grow together and there's hazards, there's problems. I hired a licensed tree trimming company of substantial size and we went in there and we took out in excess of 30 trees, to include grinding up the stumps. I guess what I'm hearing today is I did something that I could be responsible for, unless the -- are you saying -- what is the point of demarcation here? MS. SULECKI: Well, a couple of different things here. For one thing, it's Lee County it's not Collier County and the laws are different. But -- and you're also discussing tree removals, and that's a little bit different. But we do have an ordinance in Collier County which they also have in Lee County that requires you to get a tree removal permit to remove any trees. So if you didn't have a permit, it's possible there was a problem. In Collier County, the line of demarcation is required vegetation for the pruning ordinance. For example, I'm not going to come to your single-family lot and say you pruned your trees wrong. I'm going to come to commercial properties and to areas where there's common ground. MR. DICKSON: Ah, that's what I was looking for. So it's only commercial and common ground, like in a condo. MS. SULECKI: It pertains to required trees. So if you have a landscape plan that's been approved by this county, you're not only required to plant it but to maintain it. MR. DICKSON: But it doesn't apply to a single-family home. MS. SULECKI: I would say that technically it could, but we do not enforce on single-family, because there are required trees even on single-family properties. There's like two. For a regular standard size lot, you would have to have two shade trees. Technically, if you damage them beyond repair, I could come and say replace them. We don't do that. MR. DICKSON: Yeah, because see, I see -- my trade is I'm a roofing contractor. You would not believe how many roofs are destroyed and severely damaged by tree growth. MS. SULECKI: The whole idea of this is not to prevent people from maintaining buildings. It's to prevent them from damaging landscape. Trees oftentimes cause problems with Page 27 January 24, 2001 buildings. There are correct ways to deal with those problems and incorrect ways. It's the incorrect ways that we're trying to stop people from -- MR. DICKSON: Okay, and my third case, let me throw this at you. I'm looking at this picture that you include. Yeah, I see just chomped the heck out of those trees, but I see why. MS. SULECKI: Of course. I see why, too. MR. DICKSON: Here we have a tree that grows up and hides all the signs on the building, but at the same time, we have a sign ordinance that the signs can't be higher than the trees. MS. SULECKI: Well, if you read the pruning section in the ordinance that I gave you, it says that the trees are considered in advance of signs. Now, in that particular case, I had gone to that property sometime last year on the request of one of those sign owners in an adjoining building, and she had wanted to know how she could trim the trees so the signs would be visible. And what I told her was what our code says, that you cannot reduce those trees and maintain them at a reduced height and spread. You can't do that. What she could do was hire an arborist, she could possibly thin them out. They had been damaged before. And that creates a certain structural look about a tree, you can tell. And I could tell that had been done before. She could slightly thin them out, but that -- she wasn't going to be able to get that tree from out in front of her sign. My advice to her was to move the sign. I know that sounds harsh to a business owner, and I often get that reason from them. But the tree actually comes before the sign. And in this particular case, what I did to resolve this was the tree trimmer agreed to replace the trees, so I approved replacement with a smaller tree. Instead of an oak being planted there where it's really not a good place for an oak, there's too narrow a space and you're going to always have these problems with the signs, I approved a tree that's not going to get to the point where it's going to interfere with those signs. So these are the things as an arborist that I would make judgments about on the property; not to enforce our tree trimming codes in a way that's just "we're going by this letter of this law and I don't care what it does to your property." We want Page 28 January 24, 2001 to find the best solution for everybody, but at the same time maintain the integrity of the urban forest. MR. NEALE: I guess I have a question, if I may. Does this effectively outlaw tree-based topiary in Collier County? MS. SULECKI: On required trees it does. MR. DICKSON: What was the question, tree based what? MR. NEALE: Topiary. You know, the trees that are carved into shapes. MS. SULECKI: It's called pollarding. And they do it along Gulf Shore Boulevard, on the ficus trees there. You really can't do that on a required tree in Collier County. You can't maintain it at a reduced height and spread. The reason for this is that part of the function of that tree on a property is to provide shade. You're not going to get shade. You have this little umbrella thing. It's a decoration. MR. NEALE: But it's also aesthetic. MS. SULECKI: It's -- well, our aesthetic is to provide the tree in its-- MR. NEALE: Your aesthetic. MS. SULECKI: -- healthy-- I'm sorry, the aesthetics that are considered in these are to provide the tree in its natural, healthy form. That is a certain different type of aesthetic, yeah. And you can do that on your trees at home. MR. NEALE: But it's your focus that you want to impose your aesthetics -- MS. SULECKI: Well, it's not mine. MR. NEALE: -- on Collier County. MS. SULECKI: It's a focus that was imposed through these codes in 1991, way before I came. And it does limit that, yes, because it does not allow the tree to provide the shade to the property that's one of the functions. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What importance is the shade? MS. SULECKI: Helps reduce air conditioning cost. Have you gone to a shopping center where there's no trees in the summer? It's not a great place to park. It -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah, but-- MS. SULECKI: When the tree -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, the tree can also still provide polyps and sap and bird waste on my car as well. So I don't particularly care to park under a tree in a public parking lot. Page 29 January 24, 2001 MS. SULECKI: Well, I mean, that's life. We're on the planet and living things shed stuff. There's nothing we can do. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's what I'm curious about the importance of the requirements of shade when you say it -- MS. SULECKI: That's one of them. That's one of them. It also provides a buffer, a visual buffer, sort of to soften urban lines. It provides a buffer that filters particle matters out of the air. We have a lot of construction going on in this county. Trees filter and stop those particle matters from moving around. They also provide urban runoff absorption. Trees take up a lot more runoff Than no tree areas. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I don't think there's any question anything I'm hearing here that any of us deny the desire to have foliage trees, bushes, et cetera and so forth. I'm just concerned that when we enforce our tree ordinances for the sake of the trees more than for the stake of the welfare of the community -- MS. SULECKI: That's what it's for. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, in your mind I need a tree in my lot. MS. SULECKI: It's not a personal thing. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- where in my mind I need a sign. MR. NEALE: It's a very personal thing. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You know? And so -- MS. SULECKI: It's actually the standard that's defined nationally and that was accepted by the county in 1991. I learned under that standard, so yes, I see the reasons for it, but I'm not out imposing my personal will in the community. MS. WHITE: I have two questions. First of all, in regards to the pruning of the ficus trees, is it okay if the business owner just provides two additional shade trees? I mean, if the requirement is two shade trees per business, then -- MS. SULECKI: That's for single-family properties. MS. WHITE: So that's single-family. Because I like those trees. And I just -- if the concern is shade, why couldn't they just provide additional trees on the property for shade and still be allowed to continue to do that? MS. SULECKI: Pollarding, you mean? MS. WHITE: And my other question is, on this photograph that we have in our packet, would this business owner not have been allowed to move the trees and to plant a hedge under the Page 30 January 24, 2001 signs? MS. SULECKI: Well, it's possible. He'd have to come in with a variance. That's the standard landscape plan for commercial properties. It includes a tree buffer between -- on the property line. I would say if they wanted some kind of variance, they should come in and talk to the landscape architect. You know, we have certain standards for landscaping in the county. It's very well defined under our landscape ordinance that there has to be a certain number of trees, they have to be spaced a certain way, there has to be a hedge. And these things don't always work in real life. So yes, there are circumstances where people can come in and say look, I've only got this much space. But the answer, I will tell you, if you're developing a property, is not to develop it to the limit and say I can't put the trees there because I don't have the space. You're supposed to leave the space for those trees. And that's part of urban planning rules that the county adopted. MS. WHITE: I think from this point forward, you're probably a lot better off than dealing with an older situation like this. That's where your problems come up. MR. NEALE.' If I may, just so we can focus this on what the board's role is here, there's three ways any of these issues can come before the board. And they could have before Ms. Sulecki came here today and they still can in the future. Number one is if it's an unlicensed contractor operating, then a contracting licensing staff can issue them a citation. Number two, if it's deemed a major violation after the minor violation notice, the contractor licensing supervisor or his designee may initiate disciplinary proceedings against the licensed contractor by filing a sworn complaint with the clerk to the Collier County Board of County Commissioners. Just like any other hearing or process. Third way is that any person who believes that a contractor holding a certificate of competency has violated this article, may submit a sworn complaint to the contracting licensing supervisor, pay a $50 fee, and then the contracting licensing supervisor shall conduct a preliminary investigation to determine whether the complaint submitted warrants the final filing of formal charges. If the charges are warranted, the complaints Page 31 January 24, 2001 shall be filed with the clerk, and then sent by certified mail and we go through the normal hearing process. So those are the three manners in which this can be brought forward. So the process doesn't change, no matter what the board does here today. It's just, frankly, I see it as an informational item more than anything else. MR. DICKSON: I wouldn't want your job. In fact, you may think that you've walked on unfriendly territory, and that's not the case. You know, we're here to support you, but -- and I can sit here and think of all the exceptions. Like while we were talking, I thought about the Port Royal what the City of Naples does to the banyan trees every three or four years. They cut the heck out of them. And those are worse than topped. MS. SULECKI: Some species take that treatment better than others. Ficus is a species that does. MR. DICKSON: Ficus is like a pack of rats, it never quits growing. MS. SULECKI: But I do have some pictures here that show you what happens inside trees when this is done, if you're interested. MR. DICKSON: Like banyans and ficus, they can be chopped back like that and meets the codes. MS. SULECKI: I would -- no, no. What I would say is if it was a banyan or ficus -- and by the way, those trees are not permitted as required landscaping anymore on newer properties, so it would be older properties. That would be one of the considerations that I would make when I'm looking at a tree, what species is it. Will it tolerate this, will it recover. These are the things I look at. The only cases that I require actual replacement of trees or on species that will not tolerate it, that the damage is really too bad to recover. The rest of the time I rely on education, and I do provide people with how to treat the tree afterwards. I provide them with some instructions as far as restoration pruning. MR. DICKSON: What do you do with the maintenance people of condos and, you know, half of them have their own chain saws and cutters? How do you deal with these people? MS. SULECKI: I do go speak before condo boards and try to educate them about their landscapes. If you're going to cut trees commercially in this county, you have to have a license. Page 32 January 24, 2001 So they shouldn't be having their maintenance person up there trimming trees. That's something they need to know. That's a liability issue and it can bring them problems with improper pruning. Pruning trees is part science and part art. You can't teach people art. But in my experience, most of the people in this community don't even know the science. They don't know what happens to trees when they prune them. They're just out there -- they know how to operate the equipment. MR. SCHOENFUSS: I have a question. You've stated there are certain areas where trees are required and there are certain areas where trees are not required. Are there any cases -- any places where trees are required in areas where the power company or any other public utility has an easement? MS. SULECKI: As of 1991 they are required not to be placed there. However, mistakes happen. And they're all over the place under power lines. MR. SCHOENFUSS: So I think the question was brought up earlier, when the power company itself or subcontractors working for the power company go around the tree to trim trees in the vicinity of power lines, they appear to ignore completely the rules that you're trying to recommend. MS. SULECKI: You're right, they do. And they are allowed to. They have a special dispensation to cut in their easements for health and safety. And I don't have authority over what they do. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Thank you. MR. DICKSON: Next time you do one of those seminars, would you notify this board? I personally would be interested in hearing it. MS. SULECKI: I don't have one scheduled right now, but if you know of a group that would be interested, I'd be happy to schedule one. MR. DICKSON: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Anything else? MR. BARTOE: I just might add that, you know, I know that Alex is a very well qualified investigator, and I don't feel you will see, as Bob mentioned, you will see very many cases at all before you. Licensing staff will work with her to assist her. And if the need be that she needs to file a formal complaint, we will Page 33 January 24, 2001 assist her in getting that case here before you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That makes sense to me. MR. BARTOE: And some of the board members might have been here when Alex testified in a case that Mr. Nonnenmacher had, and that case went quite successfully. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Now, despite the fact that most of the county tests are prepared by Experior, supposing -- I'm sure there are all kinds of legal complications here, and it will take about four years to accomplish it, but supposing the county authorizes Alex to prepare a test for which she is qualified to prepare, which test will become a required item before -- after a certain date anyone can get a license for tree trimming? What's wrong with starting a program like that? CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't see any problem in it, as long as we have a reasonable exam that we can apply. MR. NEALE: Yeah, it would take some ordinance amendments. We'd have to amend the language in the ordinance. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Well, we'll let her prepare the test -- MR. NEALE: That's -- maybe staff can look into that, whether the state has an approved exam. Because our current language says that it has to be an exam approved throughout the State of Florida and also approved by Collier County Contracting Licensing Board. MR. DICKSON: Because if the state doesn't have one, then we can not become more restrictive than the state. MS. PAHL: Well, what about Broward County? I thought Alex just said Broward County was -- MR. DICKSON: Yeah, Dade and Broward are right there on the -- MR. NONNENMACHER: We can be more restrictive. MR. NEALE: We can be more restrictive in a specialty contractor that is not registrable by the state. This is not registrable by the state. MR. DICKSON: Okay. MR. SCHOENFUSS: We'll have her prepare the test, and if the first four people that take it don't get anything more than 28 as the score, we'll know there's something wrong with the test and we'll start all over. MR. NEALE: Just as a comment, Mr. Schoenfuss, after you Page 34 January 24, 2001 were looking at that, I did look at when he took that test. And the test he got the 28 on was taken all by itself in the year 2000. So he just had a very bad day. MR. BARTOE: I believe our testing agency in the ordinance is Experior, or someone equivalent? MR. NEALE: Yes, it's Experior, or any other testing agency With comparable standards, recognized and approved throughout the State of Florida. And actually, we're changing that in the new ordinance, because the testing agency has been acquired or changed and we're having to revise that language, based on 489. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Ms. Sulecki, I appreciate you coming in today. It was an enlightenment to listen to you. We will be happy to work with you on any complaints that we can all put together. Do we have any other items of discussion? MS. SULECKI: Thank you. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, next meeting, we have at this point in time February the 21st. Do we have -- MR. BARTOE: That is tentative. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Tentative. At this point, do we have anything signed up for that meeting? MR. BARTOE: No. And I believe Mr. Drace that was before you can wait a couple of months. He's been trying to pass the test since '97. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. If that were the case, when is the -- what date in March would be the next meeting? Does anybody -- MR. BARTOE: I do not have it with me. Does anyone have a calendar? MR. NONNENMACHER: I believe it's the 21st also. MS. WHITE: Third Wednesday. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm just concerned. I will be out of town starting the 21st of March, so I won't be able to be here for that meeting. MR. BARTOE: Do we have a vice-chairman? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, we have. MR. DICKSON: Yes, and I will be here. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You will be here. Very well. Any other items of discussion? Any other items of business? Then I need a motion for adjournment. MR. DICKSON: Dickson, so moved. Page 35 January 24, 2001 MR. SCHOENFUSS: Second. MR. GONZALEZ: Second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We have a motion and a second. favor? (Unanimous vote of ayes.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: We're done. All in There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:30 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD GARY HAYES, CHAIRMAN These minutes approved by the Board on presented or as corrected , as TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC., BY CHERIE' R. LEONE, RPR Page 36