CCPC Minutes 01/04/2001 RJanuary 4, 2001
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION
Naples, Florida, January 4, 2001
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Planning
Commission, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted
business herein, met on this date at 8:30 a.m. in REGULAR
SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East
Naples, Florida, with the following members present:
ALSO PRESENT:
CHAIRMAN:
Gary Wrage
Russell Budd
Ken Abernathy
Michael Pedone
Russell A. Priddy
Dwight Richardson
NOT PRESENT:
Joyceanna J. Rautio
Sam Saadeh
Lora Jean Young
Ron Nino, Current Planning Manager
Marjorie M. Student, Assistant County Attorney
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AGENDA
COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION WILL MEET AT 8:30 A.M., THURSDAY, JANUARY 4, 2001, IN THE
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM, ADMINISTRATION BUILDING, COUNTY
GOVERNMENT CENTER, 3301 TAMIAMI TRAIL EAST, NAPLES, FLORIDA:
NOTE: INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS WILL BE LIMITED TO 5 MINUTES ON ANY
ITEM. INDIVIDUALS SELECTED TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF' AN
ORGANIZATION OR GROUP ARE ENCOURAGED AND MAY BE ALLOTTED 10
MINUTES TO SPEAK ON AN ITEM IF SO RECOGNIZED BY THE CHAIRMAN.
PERSONS WISHING TO HAVE WRITTEN OR GRAPHIC MATERIALS INCLUDED
IN THE CCPC AGENDA PACKETS MUST SUBMIT SAID MATERIAL A
MINIMUM OF 10 DAYS PRIOR TO THE RESPECTIVE PUBLIC HEARING. IN
ANY CASE, WRITTEN MATERIALS INTENDED TO BE CONSIDERED BY THE
CCPC SHALL BE SUBMITTED TO THE APPROPRIATE COUNTY STAFF A
MINIMUM OF SEVEN DAYS PRIOR TO THE PUBLIC HEARING. ALL
MATERIAL USED IN PRESENTATIONS BEFORE THE CCPC WILL BECOME A
PERMANENT PART OF THE RECORD AND WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR
PRESENTATION TO THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS IF
APPLICABLE.
ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THE CCPC WILL
NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND
THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE
PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THE TESTIMONY AND
EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
1. ROLL CALL BY CLERK
2. ADDENDA TO THE AGENDA
3. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: November 16, 2000
4. PLANNING COMMISSION ABSENCES
BCC REPORT
CHAIl~M~.~WS REiPORT
7. A1DVER~FI:SED PUBLIC HEARINGS
BD-2000-31, Miles L. Scofield Marine Consulting, representing Charles Griffin, r~questing a 108 foot
extension for a boat dock protruding a total of 128 feet into the waterway for property located at 19 East
Pelican Street, further described as Lot 35, Isles of Capri, Unit 1. (Coordinator: Ross Gochenaur)
BD-2000-33, Miles L. Scofield of Turrell and Associates, Inc., representing Edward W. Scott, requesting a
47 foot boat dock extension for a boat dock protruding a total 67 feet into tl~e waterway, for property located
at 10455 Keewaydin Island, further described as Parcel 22, in Section 14, Township 51 South, Range 25 East,
Collier County, Florida. (Coordinator: Ross Gochenaur)
Co
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PUD-86-22(2), William L. Hoover, AICP, of Hoover Planning & Development, Inc., representing Peter and
Mark Longo, requesting a rezone from "PUD" to "PUD" Planned Unit Development known as the Pine
Ridge Center PUD having the effect of revising the PUD Master Plan to show a reverse frontage, re-label part
of Area "B" between Pine Ridge Road and the reverse frontage road as Area "C", and revising the PUD
document to correct the project acreage from 8.79 acres to 8.73 acres, change the address of the landowners,
and add additional permitted and accessory uses similar to the C-3 Zoning District, for property located on
the south side of Pine Ridge Road (C.R. 896) approximately 660 ft. west of Whippoorwill Lane, in Section
18, Township 49 South, Range 26 East, Collier County, Florida. (Coordinator: Ray Bellows)
PUD-88-11 (2), William L. Hoover, AICP, of Hoover Planning & Development, Inc.,.representing Anthony F.
Jancigar, Trustee, requesting a rezone from "PUD" to "PUD" Planned Unit Development known as the Pine
Ridge Center West PUD having the effect of revising the PUD Master Plan to show a cross-access road and
re-label part of Area "B" between Pine Ridge Road and the reverse frontage road as Area "C", and revising
the PUD document to show the neighboring landowners' current address, re-label existing exhibits and add
exhibits "D", "E", and "F", add Section 3.4L pertaining to architectural standards, add parking and loading
standards, and add additional permitted and accessory uses similar to the C-3 Zoning District, for property
located on the south side of Pine Ridge Road (C.R. 896) approximately 660 ft. west of Whippoorwill Lane, in
Section ! 8, Township 49 South, Range 26 East, Collier County, Florida. (Coordinator: Ray Bellows)
R-2000-07, D. Wayne Arnold, AICP, of Q. Grady Minor & Associates, P.A., representing Hospice of Naples,
Inc, requesting a rezone from "RMF-6" and "A" Rural Agriculture to "CF" Community Facility for a group
care facility, for property located at 1095 and 1205 Whippoorwill Lane, in Section 18, Township 49 South,
Range 26 East, Collier County, Florida, consisting of 11.6+ acres. (Coordinator: Chahram Badamtchian)
CU-2000-16, Jeff Davidson, P.E., of Davidson Engineering, Inc., representing Jesse Hardy, requesting
conditional use "1" of the "A" Rural Agricultural district for excavation of aquaculture ponds for property
two miles south of 1-75 and I mile east of Everglades Boulevard in Section 16, Township 50 South, Range 28
East, consisting of 160+ acres. (Coordinator: Chahram Badamtchian)
8. OLD BUSINESS:
9. NEW BUSINESS
10. PUBLIC COMMENT ITEM
11. DISCUSSION OF ADDENDA
12. A~D~D URd~'
2
January 4, 2001
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay, let's call this meeting of the
Collier County Planning Commission. January 4th, 2001.
We'll start by calling the roll.
Commissioner Priddy?
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Here.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Commissioner Young appears to be
absent.
Commissioner Abernathy?
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Here.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Commissioner Rautio is excused.
Commissioner Wrage is present.
Commissioner Budd?
COMMISSIONER BUDD: Here.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Commissioner Pedone?
COMMISSIONER PEDONE: Here.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: And Commissioner Saadeh is absent.
And Commissioner Richardson?
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Yes.
MR. NINO: For the record, Mr. Chairman, let me advise you
that Commissioner Young called me yesterday and advised she
wouldn't be able to attend. She says she lacked transportation.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: So noted.
Any addenda to the agenda?
MR. NINO: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: You have before you the meeting --
minutes of the meeting of November 16th, 2000.
COMMISSIONER BUDD: I make a motion --
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Any addition or correction?
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Second.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: It's been moved by Commissioner
Budd, seconded by Commissioner Priddy to approve.
All in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Motion carried.
MR. NINO: Mr. Chairman, we went by addenda to the
agenda. I guess that's the appropriate place to talk about
continuances for this agenda.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay.
MR. NINO: Item C and D, staff requests that those two be
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January 4, 2001
continued indefinitely.
Ray Bellows, are you here?
MR. BELLOWS: Yes.
MR. NINO: You want to indicate why those two are being
continued?
MR. BELLOWS: An issue concerning transportation and
access and median openings along Pine Ridge Road came up at
the last minute. And we have a new transportation services
director, and she wanted more information, so we have
continued and have a meeting with her scheduled some time in
the next week or so.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay, thank you, Ray.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: So moved.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: So moved -- second.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: It's been moved and seconded that we
move C, Charlie, and D, Delta, indefinitely, or--
MR. NINO: Indefinitely.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Indefinitely.
All in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.}
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Motion carries.
Any -- back to Planning Commission absences.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Mr. Chairman, I'll probably be
an hour late next time. I have an 8:00 meeting in another
organization.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: We will so note that on your paycheck.
And a Board of County Commissioner report, Ron?
MR. NINO: I think I -- yes, I think there's something of
interest happened at the board meeting in dealing with the
Cocohatchee that you might want to put back in your computer.
For the first time the issue of workforce housing got
addressed in connection with the Cocohatchee because they
were building a golf course and of course that's going to employ
people and going to employ people who probably can't afford the
housing that normally goes into that part of town.
So -- and a workforce housing requirement was made a
stipulation on approval. For example, like 30 percent of the
housing that was -- that would be allowed in this -- the leg of the
L would have to be workforce housing. So you might want to put
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January 4, 2001
that somewhere in your computer, because if it came up once,
I'm sure it's going to come up repeatedly on zoning petitions that
trigger low income -- I mean low paying jobs.
But I would hope that rather than it get addressed each and
every time that a policy gets adopted -- and I've raised that issue
with Bob Mulhere to determining that it not be handled on oh,
gee, did we remember, did we forget, but exactly some strategy
be laid out for making it a requirement. You know, if we're going
to -- the board's going to impose it, then it ought to be somehow
memorialized in some law.
MS. STUDENT: Well, for the record, Marjorie Student,
assistant county attorney.
That's something we should really find probably in the
housing element of the comp. plan, and it's something that
should be in there perhaps with a cross reference in the Future
Land Use Element as well.
MR. NINO: But other than that, I think --
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Ron, I had a question. And this
was probably from the commission meeting before that. But
what did they do with the rock quarry, Glenn Simpsoh's project
out on 846?
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: I think -- did they pass it with the
request, specific request we had with it?
MR. NINO: I'm not sure. But I could report back to the next
meeting.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Just a comment back to affordable
house being. In the last year, somebody remind me, I'm not sure
that we've even seen anything before this board in affordable
housing in the last year.
MS. STUDENT: One.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Yeah, there was one project
that had some in it.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Well, there's a definite need and a
definite lack thereof.
With that, chairman has no report.
We'll go into the advertised public hearings. For those
wishing to give testimony, sign-up slips are outside. Please fill
them out, give them to Ron Nino.
And we'll start with BD-2000-31. Ross -- all those wishing to
give testimony, please rise, raise your right hand and be sworn in
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January 4, 2001
by the court reporter.
(All speakers were duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Ross?
MR. GOCHENAUR: Good morning, commissioners. For the
record, Ross Gochenaur, planning services.
The petitioner is requesting a 108-foot extension to create a
docking facility protruding a total of 128 feet into the waterway.
The property is located at 19 East Pelican Street on Isles of
Capri and contains about 60 feet of water frontage. There's a
single-family home on the property.
The project consists of the replacement of an existing
108-foot legal nonconforming dock with a longer dock and lift,
which would have total less deck area than the original.
The bottom at the site is very shallow, and most of the
surrounding properties have similar extended docks ranging of
122 to 125 feet.
No objections to this project has received (sic), it meets all
criteria and staff therefore recommends approval.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Why is the present one nonconforming?
MR. GOCHENAUR: Sir?
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Why is the present one nonconforming?
MR. GOCHENAUR: A lot of these older docks on Isles of
Capri were built anywhere from 10 to 30 years ago. The
permitting records are incomplete back at that stage. And we
generally consider that anything that's appeared on the property
appraiser's records as of 1990 is granted legal nonconforming
status.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay, thank you.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Ross, is this an improved lot?
MR. GOCHENAUR: Sir?
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: An improved lot?
MR. GOCHENAUR: Yes, sir. There's a single-family house on
the lot.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Any further questions of staff?
Can we hear from the petitioner?
MR. SCOFIELD: Not unless you have questions.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Anybody got any questions of the
petitioner?
If not, anyone from the public wish to give testimony on this
one? If not, I'll close the public hearing.
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January 4, 2001
COMMISSIONER BUDD: Mr. Chairman, I move that we
approve Petition BD-2000-31.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Second.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: It's been moved by Commissioner
Budd, seconded by Commissioner Abernathy.
Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, signify by saying
aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Motion carries.
BD-2000-33. All those wishing to give testimony on this,
please stand, raise your right hand and be sworn in by the court
reporter.
(All speakers were duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Ross.
MR. GOCHENAUR: For the record, Ross Gochenaur, planning
services.
The petitioner is requesting a 47-foot extension to create a
docking facility protruding a total of 67 feet into the waterway.
The property is located on Keewaydin Island and contains
about 106 feet of water frontage. There's a single-family home
on the property.
The project consists of a four-foot wide walkway, accessing
a small terminal platform and two boat slips. The bottom at the
site is very shallow and the waterway is relatively broad.
Similar docks on neighboring properties extend from 40 to
80 feet. We've received no objections to this project, it meets all
criteria, and staff recommends approval.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Any questions of staff?
Does the petitioner wish to give testimony?
MR. SCOFIELD: No.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Anybody from the public wish to
address this issue?
If not, I'll close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER BUDD: Mr. Chairman, I make a motion we
approve Petition BD-2000-33.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Second.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Moved by Commissioner Budd,
seconded by Commissioner Abernathy.
All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
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January 4, 2001
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Carries.
Mr. Scofield, you are getting shorter again. I like that.
I do believe we've extended the next two, so now we're
down to E, R-2000-07.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Mr. Chairman, may I ask
staff, will we get new material on C&D when it comes out, or --
MR. NINO: Yes, you will.
MS. STUDENT: I'm sure.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay, with that, all those wishing to
give testimony on R-2000-07, please rise, raise your right hand,
be sworn in by the court reporter.
(All speakers were duly sworn.)
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Good morning, commissioners.
Chahram Badamtchian from planning services staff.
This rezone is for the Hospice of Naples, Inc. They are
located off Whippoorwill -- excuse me. Whippoorwill -- MR. NINO: Whippoorwill.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Whippoorwill Pool Lane, off Pine Ridge
Road. They own an 11-acre site. It's 11.6 acres. They have four
acres of lake on that site.
And the property is zoned -- most of it is zoned RMF-6, and a
portion of it is zoned A, agricultural.
In the past, in 1991, they obtained a conditional use for a
business for the Hospice of Naples. And over the years several
times they came to us to amend the conditional use to add
buildings, reconfigure the parking lot and things like that.
And basically this time they are requesting a rezone to
community facilities so they don't have to come back in front of
the board every time they want to do a minor change on the site.
The staff reviewed this petition. They are not planning on
adding anything right away. They may have some additions in
the future.
And basically the development of this site is restricted by
the size of -- by the lake that's already existing there.
The staff recommends that you forward this today to BCC
with a recommendation for approval. Staff has not received any
letters, only phone calls in opposition to this petition.
MR. NINO: I have a question. Unfortunately I should have
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January 4, 2001
paid more attention to this earlier. It's me, Wayne.
Do you know if the county has acquired the additional 40
feet of taking fee title to 40 feet of Whippoorwill Lane?
MS. ARNOLD: For the record, Wayne Arnold, representing
Hospice. We also have David Corbin, with Architectural Network,
as well as Diane Cox, who's president of Hospice of Naples.
The county did contact us early on in the process as part of
the Whippoorwill improvements, asking us if we would be
interested in donating 40 feet of right-of-way for the county. As
we came through the pre-application process, we indicated we
probably weren't in a position to donate the 40 feet of property,
but we certainly wouldn't stand in the county's way in acquiring
that right-of-way.
I don't believe that acquisition occurred. And maybe Diane
can confirm that. She's confirming that no, the county has not
moved forward on their purchase of the property.
MR. NINO: However, there will be further building -- I mean,
we're not simply dealing -- this property is not built out. There
are expectations to intensify the development on this property?
MS. ARNOLD: Our expectation essentially is to continue
with the initial building program, which is on the northern tier, as
you can see, where the current hospice facility is.
The expansion to the south currently has a single-family
home on it. That home eventually is going to be removed. We'll
be adding a media center, conference, classroom space, things
of that nature, essentially where that single-family home exists.
The site planning that we've been doing, we've
contemplated that 40-foot reduction in our front yard area to
accommodate for that; shouldn't be any problem with us dealing
with that, even with the limited building envelope we have.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Before we finish with the staff, Ron,
why is that coming up now? Why hasn't that taking place prior to
the meeting here?
MR. NINO: Well, it's not unusual for rezoning applications to
provide a -- to require that land be dedicated to the county for
any road widening that's anticipated. And I regret that I had to
raise the issue in that manner because, quite frankly, staff
should have had some discussion of that in their report.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay, any --
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: I forwarded this to the transportation
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January 4, 2001
department and they sent it back to me with no comment.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: That was going to be my next question.
Transportation has signed off on this; is that my understanding?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Basically they sent it back to me
saying they have no comments, so they signed off on this, yes.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Any further questions of staff?
MR. NINO: Well, we need to appreciate that we do need 40
feet of right-of-way dedicated to the county. If the county's
going to buy it, that's one thing, but --
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: When we get to that point, we'll talk
about recommendation.
With that, we'll let the petitioner speak.
MS. ARNOLD: I'll just go ahead. Again, Wayne Arnold. I'll
just make a brief presentation.
I hope many of you are familiar with the Hospice
organization and what it's currently doing. Rezoning to CF for
the roughly 11-acre site will accommodate not only the existing
facility, but as I mentioned, for the media center, conference
space, classroom space for the Hospice and its ongoing
activities.
We have a conceptual plan over here on the board that I'll
take you through briefly. If we have some more specific
questions, as I said, David Corbin with Architectural Network's
here, he's been doing a lot of the site planning and architectural
work.
To the north, the parcel we have -- right now a commercial
PUD, Pine View PUD that was approved here in the last few
months. You have Pine Ridge Center's East and West that were
on your agenda prior to ours that were continued indefinitely that
sit here. So we have commercial to our north.
To the south was an existing single-family home that was
acquired by Hospice, oh, probably six months ago now back in
the summer. And that is the area for our future expansion along
with the frontage of Whippoorwill Lane. The balance of the site
is primarily lake area, and that's shared with another residence
to the south, as well as another five-acre tract to the south.
And again, this really does allow to us have one unified
zoning district to operate under. And again, as staff mentioned
in its report, it really does work as a transitional use from the
commercial as we progress down Whippoorwill Lane.
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January 4, 2001
I think all of us can appreciate that the character of
Whippoorwill has changed dramatically over the last year and a
half with the number of rezonings that have come in for what will
be primarily be multi-family development.
And again, as Ron mentioned relative to the roads, because
Hospice is a nonprofit organization and they paid retail dollars
essentially for the property, we weren't necessarily in a position
to just make that land donation back to the county. That's the
way the county typically initiates its right-of-way activity, and
that is to ask for a donation. Because there could be tax benefit
to certain property owners in giving the land to the county.
And again, what we told the county, we won't stand in the
way of acquiring the property. We're not going to hold the county
hostage. We just aren't in a financial position to give that
property back after having just acquired it.
The -- so we have coordinated and spoken with
transportation. I also spoke with the real property department.
And this is what's going to become I guess an MSTU. There
may be some impact fee credits that are available, if we do make
a donation, in lieu of that. And that is an option. But I'm not sure
that it's -- I'm not -- I think where Ron is headed is potentially
asking us to go ahead and donate this land to the county. And I
wish we could say we're in that position, but we're just not in
that position today.
Again, if there are any specific questions, I'd be happy to
answer them.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: What is the proposed
addition there to the west?
MS. ARNOLD: To the west --
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: You talked about the one to
the south.
MS. ARNOLD: To the west, those are currently approved and
the site plan is on its way to the county. That was part of the
original conditional use. That would be the -- that area will
house the additional beds for the Hospice facility. I think there --
David's done the design. Maybe he can tell you exactly what's
going to be in the building. I forget the number of bedroom
facilities there.
MR. CORBIN: Good morning. David Corbin with
Architectural Network.
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January 4, 2001
The building to the west is a new residence addition. And
what it is doing is taking the place of the existing residence
wing. This is the existing building. And there are currently
residents -- excuse me, beds in the southern portion of the
existing building.
With the growth of Collier County in the last 10 years since
Hospice has been in existence, the number of patients cared for
by Hospice has grown tremendously, requiring extra clinical staff
and therefore offices for them. So the idea is to replace this
residence wing with a new residence wing here that will be up to
State of Florida standards. And then this area here will be gutted
and that will become clinical staff area.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: I thought I saw somewhere
in here where there were 12 beds now and that number wasn't
going to change. Is that right or wrong?
MR. CORBIN: No, there's six beds right now, and this is
going to be -- those are going to be removed, and then eight beds
put in here, so there's only an increase of two beds.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Oh, I see. Maybe I dreamed
that.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Mr. Richardson, do you have a
question?
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: I have a question for the
applicant.
It seems that this right-of-way issue is going to be
important, at least to my consideration'of it. And my
compliments to Hospice. You're doing a wonderful job and I'm
very much in favor of having this facility and institution in our
midst.
However, as good neighbors, and as we try to work our way
through this, I really think it's going to be important for you to
more accurately consider the donation of that 40-foot
right-of-way.
And I realize you're tax exempt status and all that, and some
of the issues that you've brought up, Wayne, but as far as my
vote is concerned, I'm going to make that a requirement, that
that donation be put in the record. So if you'd like to come
forward and do that, it would help us in our consideration.
MS. ARNOLD: I think I'd certainly need to confer with Ms.
Cox on behalf of Hospice.
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January 4, 2001
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: I think there perhaps needs to be
some discussion up here, because I would not support that
motion with that donation. I feel like unlike a developer that is
here in our county to make money and to do business, that that
may be very well appropriate and this would be the time to make
sure that the citizens of the county have that right-of-way.
I think this is an opportunity for everyone in the county to
participate in the finances of Hospice and what they do in our
community by the county paying for that right-of-way. So I
certainly cannot support that direction.
MR. NINO: Let me try to add something to that, that we -- I
do know that -- and Dawn Wolfe is here from transportation,
confirms that real property has been negotiating the right-of-way
for those non-PUD's dealing with Hospice, and there are some
other residential properties.
And perhaps in view of the fact that we're in active
negotiation, it seems like just because a hammer happens to
come by, that maybe, you know, we're not being ethical. And
Don agreed that perhaps in view of the fact that we're in active
negotiation, that there is -- there is extenuating circumstances
here, is what I want to say.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Any further questions from the board?
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Let me just pursue this,
because I brought up the issue.
What is happening in terms of the acquisition? Are we -- is
the county changing their position then, or staff changing their
position that they really want to go buy this, rather than have it
part of the deal?
MR. NINO: According -- I discussed with Kevin Hendricks
some months ago, we are buying from those non-PUD's. All the
PUD's that we approve had a requirement to dedicate it, free of
charge. However, the board several, nearly a year ago now,
authorized real property to go in and buy all of the remaining
links that weren't attached to any PUD. And they've been doing
that for a year. I would have thought by now they would have
taken title to the --
MS. WOLFE: Good morning. My name is Dawn Wolfe. I'm
the transportation planning department director.
Just a few board meetings ago the Board of County
Commissioners did authorize the acquisition of the non-PUD
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January 4, 2001
parcels down to almost the -- what would be the southern termini
of Whippoorwill Lane at a little bit more than a million dollars for
the acquisition of all of those non-PUD parcels that did not
already provide the right-of-way.
Technically we are in the active acquisition process. Had
this item come up before the Planning Commission and the Board
of County Commissioners prior to that time, I am sure that we
would have looked at it in a little bit of a different light in
recommending that we seek a dedication of that right-of-way,
versus having to go out and procure that right-of-way under the
process that's currently under way.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Answer your question?
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: I'm not sure I'm hearing the
same voice from the two staff groups.
MS. WOLFE: Actually, it is. What it's saying is this is
coming up at this point after we've initiated the process for all of
those non-rezone properties which are of the planned
development nature. This is coming in after we've already
initiated looking at what it would be -- what it would take
dollar-wise to acquire the right-of-way off of all of these non-PUD
properties, primarily all those residential properties. The Hospice
property I believe being one of those properties where they're
initiating the process to actually negotiate purchase.
As I said, had this come in to you three months ago, prior to
the board authorizing the purchase of those non-PUD parcels
along that road, we would have sought a dedication from them.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: I understand. Thank you.
MR. NINO: And that's consistent with -- our staff should be
recommending, as a condition of rezoning, the acquisition
without charge for road widening as a function of all rezonings.
If we don't do that, we're remiss. That's why we send to it
transportation real property, to see if any additional land is
required.
However, there are some extenuating circumstances here in
the sequence of time. And when you -- in retrospect, really, they
don't have to apply for this rezoning, which is again another
factor.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: To summarize for me, then,
the board has set policy that we're not going to seek gifts from
non-PUD landowners for right-of-way under any circumstance; is
Page 13
January 4, 2001
that
correct?
COMMISSIONER BUDD: No.
MR. NINO: Well, I wouldn't put it that way.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: I know you -- I want to hear
MR. NINO: If I were in the real property division, I would
first be seeking a gift. And in failing to obtain a gift, then they're
left with no choice but to pay them a fee for the value --
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: So since I have sought a gift
and failed to get it, you're saying that that's okay, from the staff's
standpoint.
MS. WOLFE: I wouldn't necessarily say this -- as I indicated,
had we been seeing this prior to the board actually authorizing
the purchase of the non-PUD parcels, we would have been -- and
then -- and this was coming in and we knew we were actively
pursuing at the board's direction the construction of
Whippoorwill Lane, that we would have said okay, well, we need
40 feet of right-of-way off of your property, you need to establish
your site plan design that provides for it.
There would have been the potential that we would have
given them some type of compensation for that right-of-way,
regardless. In this case it's a matter of we're going -- we're
coming through prior to them submitting as a separate process,
because they were at the time of that initiation not a rezoning,
and have acquired them through that process.
In some way there would have been some compensation to
the property owners through that, with the exception of these
major PUD's which came before, wanted to have the access off
of a county public road and were therefore required to provide
that right-of-way without compensation under those major
planned unit developments.
But like I said, this is -- we're in a little bit of a special case.
I don't think we've really seen this type of an issue come up
before the Planning Commission before. Like I said, it's -- which
is coming first in this case. And in this case, the authorization to
actually acquire those non-PUD properties occurred prior to this
one coming in as the PUD so --
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Mr. Chairman?
Is Whippoorwill Lane now a private road? Is that why we're
doing all this?
Page 14
January 4, 2001
MS. WOLFE: Whippoorwill Lane is not -- is for the most part
an easement roadway, providing access to private properties.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Not owned by the county.
MS. WOLFE: It's currently not owned by the county. And to a
great degree, it is not constructed past the Hospice today. In
order for the other parcels to have access to public roadways,
the road has to be constructed --
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: I remember, that's what I
was -- Hospice has a Whippoorwill Lane address, doesn't it?
MS. WOLFE: It does. And in many --
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Serviced by it, by
Whippoorwill Lane?
MS. WOLFE: Right. And it's a private access road. And I
believe the standard is that private roads, as in this -- I believe is
what this would be considered, a private access or private lane.
It does have a designation of a roadway, I believe, for addressing
purposes, for emergency services, that they would need have
some type of a lane address.
Private roads,. all of the gated communities around here all
have private roads within them and they all have named streets,
which would be similar to this situation.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: This is the only road that
services the Hospice; is that right?
MR. NINO: Yes.
MS. WOLFE: Yes.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: And I think it's important to --
MR. NINO: But in this process we'll be making it a public
road.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: I think it's important to
understand, too, that if we wanted to use the big hammer, and
we're all in agreement with that, these folks simply can pack up
and go home, and we wouldn't have the opportunity to hit them,
because they don't need to be here today. They're not coming
here today needing to do something tomorrow. They can simply
go home until the issue gets worked out. So --
MS. ARNOLD: And I think if I might, I think where Ms. Wolfe
was headed is even in the process of this acquisition, because of
the way the county has established this improvement district for
Whippoorwill Lane, there always would have been the potential
that in lieu of the actual dedication that there would be impact
Page 15
January 4, 2001
fee credits toward the construction cost of that dedication. And
I think that's how some of the other properties have been
handled.
But I think that in this particular case this was initiated
several months ago, and it's not as if there's an attempt here to
avoid doing our public duty, but it's just that we are in I think a
little bit of a unique situation here, and I think clearly our
impacts to Whippoorwill Lane are significantly different than a
700-unit PUD.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay, any further questions of staff or
the petitioner?
Anyone from the public wish to address this issue? If not,
I'll close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER BUDD: Mr. Chairman, I make a motion that
the Planning Commission forward petition R-2000-07 to the Board
of County Commissioners with a recommendation of approval.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Second.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay, motion made by Commissioner
Budd, second by Commissioner Abernathy.
Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, signify by saying
aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Motion carries.
MS. ARNOLD: Thank you all very much.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Next on the agenda, CU-2000-16.
All those wishing to give testimony in this, please rise, raise
your right hand, be sworn in by the court reporter.
(All speakers were duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Thank you.
Chahram?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Chahram Badamtchian, from planning
services staff.
This is a conditional use for an earth mining activity to be
located in an area generally known as the Hole-in-the-Donut in
Southern Golden Gate Estates area.
Probably the map on the board is clearer. This is -- this is
1-75 and 951. Golden Gate Estates, Southern Golden Gate
Estates.
This area is zoned agricultural. And that's where the
Page 16
January 4, 2001
property is. The property consists of 160 acres. This is an area
designated as a NRPA, natural resource protection area. And in
that area, earth mining is not permitted. However, bona fide
agricultural uses are permitted. And the applicant is proposing
to have a fish farm, basically, there. What they are proposing is
to build fertile eggs, which will be 80 acres in area, combined
area of 100 -- a combined area of 80 acres. And since bona fide
agricultural uses are permitted in NRPA, therefore, this one is
deemed a permitted use.
We have a letter from the DCA opining that earth mining in
this area would be a permitted use, provided that it is done for
bona fide agricultural uses.
And the access will be through -- the access will be through
an easement in here, which goes to DeSoto, and then it will be
connected to Everglades Boulevard through 52nd Avenue
Northeast.
Since this is an area called Southern Golden Gate Estates,
the Growth Management Plan does not allow road improvements.
Basically we cannot improve the roads, or we cannot have
stipulations that the applicant improved the roads for this
business.
This petition was reviewed by the EAC, Environmental
Advisory Council, and by a vote of 5-1 they recommended denial.
They cited the NRPA designation as one reason. They said this
is an area of natural resource protection area. And also, they
said it's not compatible with surrounding property uses. Which
staff disagrees with that, since it is zoned agricultural,
surrounded by agricultural on three sides, a bona fide
agricultural use should be deemed compatible use with
surrounding properties.
Staff has also received a letter from the Conservancy of
Southwest Florida opposing it.
However, staff recommends approval of this petition for a
period of three years. And after the first three years, we will
make a site visit to make sure that it's a bona fide agricultural
use, a bona fide fish farm. And if so, we bring it back to this
board for another conditional use. If not, we will put a stop to
the earth mining activity.
With that --
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: I'm sorry, Chahram, did you say two
Page 17
January 4, 2001
years or three years?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN:
CHAIRMAN WRAGE:
MR. BADAMTCHIAN:
CHAIRMAN WRAGE:
MR. BADAMTCHIAN:
Three years.
Two years?
Three.
Three years, okay.
Basically staff recommends approval
of this petition, subject to all stipulations.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Well, I'm somewhat confused. The
conditional use is for earth mining or for fish farming?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Fish farming does not require
conditional use. Fish farming is a permitted use. However, in
order to have a fish farm, you have to have ponds. In order to
have ponds, you have to dig lakes. And that -- digging lakes by
itself does not require a conditional use, but they have to haul
off-site. The dirt must be hauled off-site. That requires a
conditional use.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Well, that's leading to my next
question. In three years you go out there and there's no fish
pond, he's got to fill it back up; is that what we're saying?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: No, we -- actually, we're not saying
that, no. A pond by itself is not going to destroy the
environment. A small pond there, it would be okay. But if we
see the intent was not the fish farming but was to just sell the
dirt, then we stop that; otherwise, it would be hard to bring the
fill back in and fill the pond.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: I don't have a problem with what he's
trying to do, but what do you do then at that point if he's not?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: We believe that what they are saying is
true. We believe they are going to have a fish pond. But as they
say, trust but verify. So we are trying to make sure that we are
right.
COMMISSIONER PEDONE-' I have a question. It says that
they intend to excavate this site for a period of 30 years. How
much do you expect them to get done in three?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: That is -- they can get one lake done in
three years, if they want to. The problem is it's way out and it's
going to be hard for them to sell the dirt. It's -- dirt will be mostly
used for the Golden Gate Estates area. And we don't believe
there is a market to sell this dirt in five or 10 years.
But -- and they are -- on the application they are saying 25 to
Page 18
January 4, 2001
30 years, and that is because there's a difference impact fees if
you dig a lake in 30 years than you dig it in three or four years.
The impact fee goes up tenfold, if you want to do it in a shorter
period of time.
COMMISSIONER PEDONE'- Well, I guess the question is, is
the fish pond a by-product of the earth mining operation, or is the
earth --
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: No, other way around.
COMMISSIONER PEDONE: I have a hard time believing that
one. I really do. As far as I know, clean fill is a commodity that's
very much in demand in Collier County.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: If they intended just to have the earth
mining activity, they wouldn't be designing the fish ponds. The
way they are designed, it is going to be costly to build it. It
basically is going to eat up all the money they are making from
the, you know, earth mining activity.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: But that's the only way they
can do it.
COMMISSIONER PEDONE: What do you do with the fish
pond? I mean, do people come and look at the fish, or do they go
fishing?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: No, no, no, it's a commercial fish and
fish farming activity. It's 80 acres of lakes.
COMMISSIONER PEDONE: For bass and --
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Is this a saltwater -- going to be a
saltwater operation?
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: We'll let that question -- the petitioner
answer it. Let's finish with the staff report. Any further
questions of staff?
MR. NINO: Let me just add that obviously if you read
Chahram's report, you'll note that there's an awful lot of caution
in it. There are -- we do have concerns, and our concerns of
course is that what we're dealing with here is a bona fide
agricultural activity, and that -- and the excavation of earth
material is an activity that needs to be done to facilitate the
agricultural end use.
Our concern was that we wanted to make sure that indeed
there was going to be a bona fide fish raising activity here,
breeding or raising or whatever, and we therefore placed the
minimum window on that, which was three years.
Page 19
January 4, 2001
And they're going to either have to stockpile, if they can't
sell sufficient amount of that material to establish that bona fide
-- to make that bona fide statement, then they're going to have to
stockpile it on-site. But they've got a three-year window only in
order to prove that what they're saying is the reason for the
excavation materializes. And after that, it comes back to you
and to the board to determine to what degree their activities
qualifies them for going forward with the project.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: What agricultural use is the
property being put to now?
MR. NINO: I don't know.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: I think there is none. There is a house
there, the owner of the property lives there, but there's no
agricultural activity that I know of.
MR. NINO: And going back to the EAC, I think the EAC's --
implicitly in the EAC's attitude, I think you could say that it
wasn't a question of compatibility, it was a question of the
activity by itself seems to be not in keeping with the intent of the
NRPA, natural resource protection area. I mean, growing row
crops, tomatoes and excavating a couple of million cubic yards
of earth, you know, are two different things. And I think that
underlies the attitude of the EAC. When it says it's not
compatible, I think the EAC is saying it's not compatible with the
intent of the NRPA.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Mr. Chairman?
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Ron, would it be fair to say that
the attitude, though, would not be any different if it were in fact
to do row crops, because hasn't that been that they really don't
want anything to take place inside that~NRPA? I mean, is that
fair?
MR. NINO: Well, technically that's where the purist would
say thou shalt not disturb, plain and simple, yes.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Any further questions of staff?
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: If I may. The -- if the
applicant -- and we'll talk to him in a minute, but if the applicant
left the dirt on-site, he wouldn't have to come here.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN-' He wouldn't have to come here,
correct.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: He could just --
Page 20
January 4, 2001
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: He could come today to us and obtain
a clearing permit, an excavation permit, if he decides to keep the
dirt on-site.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: That may be a solution.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: That may be a solution, but we are
talking about 1.8 million cubic yards of dirt, and it's more
environmentally damaging than hauling off the dirt. Because
they are preserving almost half of the site as natural -- in its
natural state. If we ask them to stockpile the dirt, they have to
remove trees and vegetation from that area to stockpile the dirt.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: However, if it's a permitted
use, he could do it just that way.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: They can do it that way if they choose,
yes.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: I mean, that's what our
code allows.
MR. NINO: Although, there are constraints. The constraints
are how much dirt can you store on "X" number of acres of land.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: It's all dirt now.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Any further questions of staff? If not,
we'll hear from the petitioner. And I think you've heard the
question.
THE COURT REPORTER: I haven't sworn you in, sir.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. KARL: My name is James Karl, K-A-R-L. I'm the
attorney representing the petitioner.
I'd like to put it in context. And I think the questions that
were raised are the ones at issue. This really is a petition about
whether or not we take and stockpile the fill or remove it from
the site.
Mr. Hardy, my client, and the owner of this property has
lived on this property for well over 20 years, close to 30 years,
and he has been desirous of undertaking this aquaculture
activity for some time. He's been consulting with the university,
he's been consulting with the Department of Agriculture. He's
very serious about what he's doing, and he's going to do it
whether or not he's allowed to take the fill out.
The problem with leaving the fill on-site, in addition to what
staff has pointed out, that there are limitations, it's going to
create the need to clear additional areas, and if you look at
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January 4, 2001
staff's report at Page 6, they estimate, and we agree with this,
that the fill that will be generated by the excavation, if placed on
the unexcavated portion of the site, would generate a mound
over 25 foot high. And this creates problems regarding irrigation
and what actually could grow on that mound.
It's going to be much better environmentally, as well as
aesthetically, to actually remove the fill. And this is why we're
here today. And we believe that first of all, there's no question
that Mr. Hardy is entitled to engage in this aquaculture activity.
There's no question that he's entitled to dig these ponds. The
question is whether or not he can do what is environmentally and
aesthetically advantageous and that is take the dirt out of there.
And we respectfully submit that that should be given a strong
consideration.
I'll be glad to answer any other questions. I don't think the
issue of the authenticity of the aquaculture should even be
relevant for two reasons: Number one, because they are in
consultation with the Department of Agriculture. Agriculture has
said dig the ponds. They've taken all those steps necessary.
And our environmental consultant who is also here can speak to
that.
And number two, because the mechanism that staff has
placed upon us, this three-year review back to the board, is
really a failsafe. I mean, obviously we're going to have to make
not only proof that it's a bona fide aquaculture activity, but we're
going to have to actually have that activity in place within that
three-year period.
Thank you. I'd like to introduce Marco Espinar, who's the
environmental consultant.
MR. ESPINAR: For the record, Marco Espinar, Collier
Environmental Consultants. If you have any questions, I'll be
more than glad to answer them.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Just a question to orient myself on the
map.
Show me where the property is and where the route will be,
you know, for the truck primarily.
MR. ESPINAR: That's not our project.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay. I couldn't find it. I was trying to
figure the interstate on it.
MR. DAVIDSON: For the record, I'm Jeff Davidson, the
Page 22
January 4, 2001
engineer for the project.
The proposed route -- the project's here, and this is 1-75, the
yellow line, and we're about two miles south of 1-75.
The route to the project would be Everglades Boulevard to
52nd, I believe it is, or 54th, that goes over to DeSoto, down
DeSoto and then to another road; I think it's probably 52nd that
goes over across the north of the property and down an
easement, down Fakaunion Canal. And we're about two miles
south of 1-75.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: And all of that's an improved road,
right?
MR. DAVIDSON: The improved road -- the county road stops
about a mile and a half north of the property, and then there's a
limerock road, an improved limerock road, not paved, that runs
south to the property boundary. It's not a county right-of-way.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: And Chahram, they would be required
to keep that up; is that right?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: They have to keep that up, but they
cannot improve it.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: They have to keep it at least what it is
now, right?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Correct.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Thank you.
MR. ESPINAR: And if I might add, if you look at Stipulation
No. 3 under the environmental, the applicant has agreed to
adhere to just that access and not to take it south or go down
Jane Scenic Drive or anything. That will be our access.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: I had a question just as -- is this
going to be a freshwater operation or a saltwater operation?
MR. ESPINAR.' Yes, sir, freshwater. Catfish and bluegill.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: In other words, the -- doesn't have
anything to do with the petition, but this is for consumption,
right?
MR. ESPINAR: Yes, sir, for consumption.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: No tropical fish or any --
MR. ESPINAR: No, no, catfish and bluegill.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Mr. Chairman?
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Yes.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: How many truckloads of dirt
Page 23
January 4, 2001
are you going to be moving per day? Or give me some sort of
feeling how much volume of traffic there's going to be and how
much impact it's going to have.
MR. DAVIDSON: Jeff Davidson again.
The 30 years was based on worst case conditions. And that
was approximately, Stan, correct me if I'm wrong here, I think it
was 50 or 60 trucks a day. And really moving the fill off-site is
based on market conditions, because we have to have a place to
move the fill, and the only alternative would be to stockpile the
fill on-site. And we'd prefer not to do that for the reasons we've
already discussed.
So we're not sure. It depends on the market. It depends on
how much -- you know, where we can sell the fill is the bottom
line. Worst case we're thinking 50 or 60 trucks a day.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Could I ask the applicant if
selling the dirt is a necessary ingredient to the economics of this
project?
MR. KARL: The project has to be reviewed as a whole. And
I'm not going to suggest that there isn't earmarked from the
proceeds of the sale of the dirt the extra expenses that we're
going to come into as a result of these ponds.
These are not just the holes that are dug. They're carefully
designed with depths and connections between the two so that
the aquaculture is successful. So there is expense involved. A
lot more than there would be if you were simply digging a hole.
And sure, we do plan to use the proceeds from the sale of
the dirt to meet some of those expenses. But I think that it's
very important to note that Mr. Hardy -- this isn't the typical
situation of somebody who's out there and decides he wants to
engage in an activity that's going to make a big profit by the sale
of the dirt. Mr. Hardy has lived there, he is a long-standing
resident.
This is something -- he even dug a pond back in 1997, a
small one, a test pond. This is something that he's been working
with for some time. I have no question that this is a genuine
activity.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Might I ask the
environmental consultant. You appeared before the EAC? MR. ESPINAR: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: And they did not approve, or
Page 24
January 4, 2001
did not recommend --
MR. ESPINAR: Right.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: -- your project.
Can you explain to me from the NRPA standpoint, which I'm
sure you're very familiar with, or help me understand how this is
compatible with the intent of the county to preserve those
areas?
MR. ESPINAR: Well, that area is slated for restoration and
hydrological restoration. And it is my opinion that the four ponds
out there is going to attenuate a lot of -- or, you know, have a lot
of water storage. In essence, it will be a benefit for that area,
because it's restoring some of the hydrology, the groundwater, in
that area. Right now the water just sheet flows over that whole
entire area.
The area is an upland right now. I mean, it is an upland.
And the water just sheet flows through there. The four ponds
will store a lot of water in the -- to the north of the restoration
areas. So I think it is a compatible use.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: I note that Clarence Tears
from the Big Cypress Basin, however, disagrees with that
analysis.
MR. ESPINAR: Correct.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: You say your view is correct
and his is wrong.
MR. ESPINAR.' Just a difference of opinion. Like I said, my
opinion is that we are storing a lot of water and the hydrology
there is going to be restored.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: It's certainly not going to
flow through there, though, when you've got the ponds built,
some retaining walls and all that around it, which you've
described that you're going to have to have to make this a
working operation. It will be an impediment to the natural
hydrology of that area.
MR. ESPINAR: That area is one of the highest grounds in the
whole vicinity. It is an upland. The water right now does sheet
flow through the east and the south of the property. But in
essence, his property is probably one of the highest pieces of
property out there.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: So apparently Mr. Tears was
not aware of that upland?
Page 25
January 4, 2001
MR. ESPINAR: I'm not aware of how much information Mr.
Tears was -- was available to him, and I have not spoken with Mr.
Tears.
MR. LENBERGER: If I may, Stephen Lenberger for the
record, the environmental specialist that reviewed the project for
the county.
We gave copies of the Environmental Impact Statement, as
well as a site plan to Clarence Tears, as well as the DEP and the
Division of Forestry, so he would have been aware that it is an
upland site in the elevations, because it's in the ElS.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: And you -- of course
because it was included in our packet, he did recommend that
we not go along with this?
MR. LENBERGER: He said it was incompatible with the
restoration plans which are being developed at this time in
con]unction with the Army Corps of Engineers, but he didn't state
any specific reasons why.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Does the county staff have
a view on which position is more appropriate for us to take?
MR. CHRZANOWSKI: Good morning. Start Chrzanowski with
development services.
I don't see how digging a lake can interrupt the hydrology.
Like they say, they are the high point of the county. The water
does go around them.
All lakes in Collier County are simply penetrations of the
water table. The water in the lake will rise and fall as the
hydrology rises and falls. If they get a lot of rain, the water in
the lakes will get higher; in the dry season the water in the lakes
will get lower.
Marco is right about one thing, the lakes act more as a sink
for water. They hold more water than an equal amount of ground
which generally has like maybe 25 percent voids in it. So you do
have a little buffering in there. You do get some evaporation loss
that you don't get from water that's under the ground, but you
don't get the evapotranspiration loss that you get when there's
trees on the land.
So I've talked with a few people about this and generally
they agree that over the long term it's probably a toss-up
whether you dig a lake or not. But I can't see the lakes having
an adverse effect on the hydrology of the area.
Page 26
January 4, 2001
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: But are we not back to -- I mean, I
understand where you're going. But the real question, if we take
Mr. Hardy at his word, under oath, we're not talking about
whether the lakes are going to be dug. He's going to dig the
lakes, irregardless of what we say. It's a matter of whether he
piles the dirt up or hauls it off.
MR. CHRZANOWSKI: If you dig a 20-acre lake 20 feet deep,
you're going to pile 20 acres 20 feet high. And you,re not going
to be able to irrigate it. It's going to be constantly dry, nothing
will grow on it. When the rains come, the erosion will wash the
sediment all over the place. It will be, as far as I'm concerned,
more of a disaster than hauling the fill off-site. If you're going to
dig a lake, you've got to haul the fill off-site.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Mr. Chairman, just one last?
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Ron, it seems to me we --
I'm left with some incompatibility in our zoning code that permits
this kind of operation, yet doesn't recognize the by-product that
results from digging these holes. And it would seem to me that
our code, in some future discussion we might have, should deal
more directly with the consequences of this kind of a project.
MR. CHRZANOWSKI: If I might, about three years ago, there
was a gentleman came in here to dig catfish ponds -- a catfish
pond. Only he wanted people to be able to fish in the pond. And
at that time there was in the Land Development Code a provision
that you could haul any excess fill off-site from an agricultural
operation. It was generally assumed that he was in here, like
they're making the assumption about Mr. Hardy, that he's just
been here for the fill. As far as I know, right now he's got catfish
in that pond that are fair sized going toward his goal.
The commission at that time considered it a loophole that
you could claim to be doing aquaculture and haul all the fill
off-site without any control on it. So about two or three years
ago, we put a special provision in there that agriculture over
4,000 cubic yards hauled off-site needed a conditional use.
That's why you're hearing this today, because of that.
It was an attempt to answer what you see as a problem. The
answer is that you have to review it and then allow the off-site
hauling.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Look at each one
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January 4, 2001
individually.
MR. CHRZANOWSKI: Yes.
MR. NINO: Mr. Chairman, you have speakers on these -- on
this petition.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay. Any further questions of the
staff or the petitioner at this point? If not, anyone from the
public wish to speak on this?
MR. NINO: Kathleen Avalone and Mimi Wolok.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Ma'am, were you sworn in?
MS. AVALONE: No, I wasn't.
(Speakers were duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Give your name and spell it for the
court reporter, please.
MS. AVALONE: My name is Kathleen Avalone. A-V-A-L-O-N-E.
And I am co-founder of the Citizens For the Protection of
Animals of Southwest Florida. There are a couple of points that
I'd like to make.
If you grant approval for these so-called aquaculture ponds,
in reality what you will be approving is earth mining, which is not
allowed in this area under the final order. Most fish ponds are
one to five acres, according to Dr. Bart Green, principal
investigator for the International Center For Aquaculture and
Aquatic Environments. This proposal will use 80 acres for four
ponds. That's fuzzy math. Most aquaculture ponds are 12 to 15
feet deep. These would be 20.
In 1997, a permit was issued specifically for a catfish pond.
Not a test pond, as the petitioner is claiming. Three years later,
there are no catfish in this pond.
MR. HARDY: You haven't checked it.
MS. AVALONE: Assuming --
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: No comments from the public. You get
an opportunity to testify, if you want to.
MS. AVALONE: Assuming a fish pond is made in the first
phase of this project, predation is a major concern. It was stated
at the EAC meeting that no predator control would be instituted.
This is unrealistic and, for the most part, untruthful. I myself
heard Mr. Hardy state that turtles which might come to feed
would also bring in money. Since it is inevitable that predators,
cormorants, otters, alligators, raccoons, turtles, will be attracted
to this food source, it is also inevitable that there will be
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January 4, 2001
wholesale killing of these animals.
It was also stated at the EAC meeting that no environmental
damage would be done to this land. Destruction of 80 acres of
rare upland habitat land is not considered damage?
Objective 6.8 states the county shall protect natural
reservations from the impact of surrounding development. Public
lands are on all four sides of this project, and the Water
Management District says it will indeed impact these lands.
This project is in Priority I panther habitat. And it's about
time that that fact be given the priority it deserves. Objective
7.3 requires the county to develop and implement programs for
the protection of animal wildlife, especially practices to reduce
disturbances to Florida panthers, among others. Since the
Florida panther is an endangered species, it is not only a moral
obligation but a legal one as well.
Several groups are presently involved in legal action against
federal and state agencies which have failed to meet their
responsibilities concerning the preservation of the Florida
panther habitat.
We are asking you today to meet your responsibilities to our
land and wildlife and deny this permit. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Thank you. Next speaker.
MS. WOLOK: For the record, my name is Mimi Wolok.
M-I-M-I, W-O-L-O-K. I'm staff attorney for The Conservancy of
Southwest Florida.
We turned in written comments last week. However, in the
fax transmission, it did not come out very well. Would you mind
if I passed the letter out now and read it into the record?
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: That would be fine.
MS. WOLOK: On behalf of The Conservancy of Southwest
Florida's 5,800 member families, I appreciate the opportunity to
comment before the PAB today.
Over the years The Conservancy has actively participated in
the protection of South Golden Gate Estates, including this
Hole-in-the-Donut area. We were very much involved in ensuring
that landowners were able to get a reappraisal of their property
in the process of getting higher prices for the South Golden Gate
Estates properties from the state.
The South Golden Gate Estates is a vital part of the
watershed in the western Everglades ecosystem. Any proposed
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January 4, 2001
projects that are Inconsistent with the protection and restoration
of the western Everglades must be avoided at all costs.
The Conservancy believes that this petition should be
denied. The EAC staff report states that the only way this
petition for an excavation could be deemed consistent with the
FLUE is if the intended and primary use is a bona fide agricultural
use and the excavation is a directly related use necessary in
order to achieve the end use.
We believe the excavation of over 1.78 million cubic yards of
fill cannot be interpreted as anything but the primary use of this
property.
The petitioner plans to dig up to 20 feet in depth. While this
may be recommended for earth mining lakes after the fill has
been removed, we do not believe that the same rules apply for
aquaculture facilities in Florida. In fact, we know that
aquaculture facilities don't require 20 feet, especially for catfish
and bluegill.
We believe that the Big Cypress Basin -- the letter that you
received is based on credible scientific evidence that Big
Cypress Basin has a lot of information about the overall sheet
flow and health of the ecosystem down in South Golden Gate
Estates and the Hole-in-the-Donut. And as you had already
pointed out, their opinion conflicts with the. biological opinion of
the petitioner's. And we believe that Big Cypress Basin
scientists should be -- should take precedence in this case.
We also believe that the NRPA overlay allows only uses that
are directly related to agriculture. Later conversion of earth
mining into an aquaculture business is not directly related to
agriculture.
The subject 80-acre property has already been deemed
important for conservation by both the county and the state. This
is a NRPA area, and as the EAC pointed out, the spirit of, you
know, what NRPA's are all about would be violated by the
digging of 20-foot holes over 80 acres in this area.
The reason for the denial at EAC, as you already know, is
they don't believe the use is compatible with the surrounding
uses, and specifically it was pointed out that this 'pond, based on
the surrounding habit -- natural habitat, wild habitat, would -- may
convert into alligator ponds, and that there wouldn't be any
catfish left. I mean, petitioner says that they wouldn't keep the
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January 4, 2001
wildlife out, and we believe that that is a very legitimate
concern.
So The Conservancy respectfully requests that this petition
should be denied for the reason that it's inconsistent with the
intent of the county comprehensive plan. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Question?
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Yeah, I have a question. Ms.
Wolok, I would like the record to reflect that I am one of those
5,800 member families that you are representing today.
Given the fact that this petitioner, irregardless of what we
say, and irregardless of what anyone wants, can go dig those
ponds by simply going to Horseshoe Drive and getting a permit
today, they can go do that this afternoon. Even if we tell them
no, they can go get those permits.
MS. WOLOK: Can they do it if it's violates NRPA, if it is
found that --
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: But it's not going to be found. If
they put in -- go get permits and put in a fish pond, that's
allowed. The Governor and Cabinet specifically said that's okay.
Given those circumstances, would The Conservancy rather
see dirt piled up and destroy the rest of the property, or the dirt
hauled off? And I think that's what the issue is here today.
MS. WOLOK: Well, that's a hard question to answer.
Because if you pile up the dirt on the side of the pond, it would
show that -- it would help show that the intent of this is as an
aquaculture pond and not as an earth mining business, because
they wouldn't be as interested in getting the money from the fill.
And from the environmental standpoint, it would be a little more
difficult to argue that the fill should be piled up on the side. So
this is definitely a dilemma.
But if this commission finds and the BCC finds that the
primary -- the whole question is, is this a primary use? Is earth
mining a primary use or is the aquaculture the primary use? And
it seems clear to The Conservancy that earth mining is the
primary use and aquaculture is the secondary use.
However, if this commission and the BCC finds that this
three-year probationary period is appropriate, then The
Conservancy asks that it be allowed to accompany the county
staff on perhaps monthly monitoring visits out to the site so that
we can -- our biologists can also be assured that this is indeed a
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January 4, 2001
viable aquaculture business.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Would digging the lakes at 15 feet
give you a better comfort level? I mean, if that's what scientists
say, you only need 15 feet as opposed to 20 feet, does that give
you a better comfort level that what they're intending up front is
a fish farm and not a mining operation?
MS. WOLOK: Well, the problem is we don't have the
information that that would be -- that that would be viable
financially for the petitioner or that biologically it would make a
difference to the South Golden Gate Estates area. The important
point is that it's an incompatible use with the surrounding
habitat.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: I don't buy that argument, but
okay, thank you.
MS. WOLOK: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Anyone else wish to speak on this?
MR. DAVIDSON: Yes. I'm Jeff Davidson again. I would like
to clear some things up about the design of the lakes. I've done a
lot of lakes in Collier County, probably 20 or 30 lakes,
excavation, commercial excavation type lakes, and a lot of
research went into the design of these lakes. And these lakes
are nothing like the commercial excavation in the rest of Collier
County.
For one thing, the depth of the lakes is not 20 feet; it's a
maximum of 20 feet. And it goes from a minimum of 12 feet, and
it slopes from one end, from the deep end, from 12 feet down to --
the shallow end of 12 feet down to a deep end of 20 feet.
And the reason we did that is so that -- for one reason,
there's a -- since the property is relatively high, the depth -- the
water table depth during the dry season we think will probably
drop to about seven feet below natural grade, seven to eight
feet. And that will give us only four feet in the shallow end of
water. And, you know, a little bit more on the deep end. So
that's the reason it slopes the way it does.
Also, the lakes are interconnected, so we can pump down
during harvesting and the fish would collect in the deep end
when it's pumped down. And there are a lot of things that went
into the design of this that is above and beyond what's usually in
a commercial excavation operation.
And also, we're meeting the county requirements, the Land
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January 4, 2001
Development Code requirements on the minimum depth on one
ends and the maximum depth on the other end. And we're trying
to stay within that range. That's also the requirement -- or the
recommended requirement of the South Florida Water
Management District. So we're staying within those parameters
in the design of this, as well as keeping in mind the aquaculture
requirements. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Would it be correct -- may I
ask? Would it be correct for us then to assume that the average
depth of the excavation is something like 10 feet then?
MR. DAVIDSON: The average depth is around 16 feet, a little
less than 16 feet.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: That's 12 foot at one end
and 20 foot at the other.
MR. DAVIDSON: That's just the average of 12 and 20.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Well, I didn't know how far
the slope was.
MR. DAVIDSON: Well, it's in there somewhere,. because on
the end, if you're looking at the plan there, there's the shaded
end of the lake, that is a littoral shelf, and it was -- was
stretcher. And the littoral shelf requirement in the Land
Development Code for a commercial excavation, there's a
four-to-one slope requirement. On these lakes we have a
ten-to-one slope requirement -- not requirement, ten-to-one slope,
because based on the research that Marco Espinar did and the
information I got from him and other sources, that slope is
desirable for the breeding of native fish. And so it's shaped like
that.
And there's also stretcher in the bottom for the fish to be
more comfortable in their environment. And when the lake is
pumped down -- that's on the shallow end, by the way. When the
lake's pumped down on the deep end, the fish would congregate,
then they could be netted on that end for harvesting or, you
know, whatever method Mr. Hardy uses to harvest the fish.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: And your depth is also
somewhat related to the amount of loss of water in the dry
season.
MR. DAVIDSON: That's right. And since he's on a relatively
high area, we did quite a bit of research. I visited the site twice,
and I know Marco's been there several times to estimate what
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January 4, 2001
we think the dry season elevation of the water table would be,
which would -- you know, it's relatively easy there to determine
that, because the canal, Fakaunion Canal, is adjacent to the
property. And we had their water marks and other ways --
there's a downstream weir that we got the elevation of and
things like that to come up with a determination of what we
think the low season water table would be. And we estimate
that that lake, in the shallow end, would have four to five feet of
water during the dry season. So they're not as deep as they look.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay, any further questions? No more
speakers? I'll close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER BUDD: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a
motion that the Planning Commission forward this petition to the
Board of County Commissioners for conditional approval, subject
to all staff stipulations.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Second.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: It's been moved by Commissioner
Budd, seconded by Commissioner Priddy. Any further
discussions?
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Yes, question on --
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Commissioner Richardson.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: I'd like to ask staff, this 1.75
million cubic yards, the applicant and you have said you both
agree on that number as a reasonable -- I'm trying --
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: That's basically the number that we
agreed on.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: And that's where the 12 foot
at one end and 20 foot at the other end -- MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Yes.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: -- you figured all that out?
And it's going to be -- that's a lot of dirt.
Did we get any indication -- maybe I failed to ask this earlier
-- as to how soon the first pond's going to be there and in
operation? Will it be there within the three-year period? I know
we're going to go back--
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: We are saying three-year period from
the time they apply for a site clearing permit. After they are
done with the board -- with the county, if it's approved, they have
to go through the South Florida Water Management District to
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January 4, 2001
get a permit. And there's a letter from South Florida Water
Management saying that they're not in favor of it. So they have
an uphill battle there. We are saying three years from the time
they are ready to go.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: One other question, if I may.
I haven't heard really any response to this wildlife protection
question. And that seems to be an issue that you could solve or
could help us understand a little better, because that does sound
like a problem.
MR. ESPINAR: For the record, Marco Espinar. We recognize
that some predators or alligators or otters might get into the
ponds. And the applicant has shown no intent of, you know,
preventing an animal from utilizing those lakes. The lakes are
designed with underwater structure, rocks, as we've discussed.
We've also discussed a ten-to-one littoral shelf that's all
going to be fully vegetated. And in essence, you know, this is
going to be some loss. There will be some economic loss of
some fish. But that's part of the business of aquaculture. And
the applicant recognizes that and there's nothing really to
prevent it.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Let me understand. You're
saying that predators that might stumble onto these lakes in
their natural pursuit of their sustenance, you're not going to do
anything to keep that from happening? That doesn't seem to be
consistent with a commercial operation.
MR. KARL: Yeah, just to clarify on that point, our belief is
that the predator issue is one that can be addressed once the
first lake is in place. If predators become a problem -- I mean, I
think we have to say that if it becomes a major problem, such as
alligators where we're having a substantial loss, then we would
have to take some steps. But I believe those steps, and Marco
can address this, too, the steps to keep them out of, you know,
fencing and so forth would not be extreme.
MR. ESPINAR: We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
Also, the department of aquaculture, an arm of the
Department of Agriculture, will also be holding our hands
throughout this whole process. In fact, we'll be meeting with
them on-site on numerous occasions. And we've already been in
communications with Tallahassee. And like I said, they will be
an integral part of supervising this aquaculture operation.
Page 35
January 4, 2001
MR. DAVIDSON: Jeff Davidson again. I've spoken with Mr.
Hardy about that. And he's been there for almost 30 years on
that site. And there's a canal there, Fakaunion Canal, which is
full of fish. I bass fish out there all the time. You know, there are
tilapias in there, there are bass, there are brim, and there's a few
gators in there. There's a cormorant once in a while. And there
are some predators in that area.
But he believes, and I believe as well, I've been in this area
for 47 years, and I don't think the predators are going to be a
problem. And that's why we've determined to cross that bridge
when we get to it. We didn't want to, you know, cause an
environmental problem here saying we're going to shoot the
otters and that sort of thing, but we don't think it's going to be a
problem.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: I just want to understand
which side of the issue it is. The predator comes on site. Are you
going to try to just prevent him from being there, or are you going
to do something more drastic?
MR. DAVIDSON: As of right now, we don't intend to do
anything with the predators. Because we don't think the
predators will really cause a problem, because there aren't that
many predators around.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: If they do become a
problem, what is your position? Are you going to eliminate them
or just keep them away? That's the question I have. What
seems to be the applicant's interest here?
MR. DAVIDSON: If they do become a problem, I don't know,
what do you think?
MR. ESPINAR: Well, we can eliminate some of the
predators. And here we are, we're talking hypothetic. We don't
know what predators we're talking about here.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Just --
MR. ESPINAR: I mean, if it's a hawk, if a hawk comes in,
he's going to come, grab a fish and he's gone. COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Okay.
MR. ESPINAR: You know, versus, you know, if an all -- a
resident alligator comes in, then we could call Animal Control for
removal of the animal. So we don't know. It's hypothetical. We
don't know what predators are going to be there.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: You don't have a particular
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January 4, 2001
shooting plan in mind then? MR. ESPINAR: No. No.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: All right.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY.' I would point out, Mr. Richardson,
that if it's an alligator, the state has just extended the harvesting
of alligators to year round. They're going for about $32 a foot,
and permits are easily attainable, and that can become an
economic source, if it's an attraction for the alligator, so --
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: So it's going to become an
alligator pond instead of a fish pond.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Well, could be.
MS. STUDENT: I just --
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: One point of order. I don't seem to
have closed the public --
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: Oh, you didn't? Excuse me.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: I tried, but it seems to still be open.
And I'll allow one more question. Commissioner Abernathy.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: I want to discuss, I don't
want a question.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay. Well, I am going to close the
public hearing. And I would point out, commissioners, at what
time I do that, that's for disc. ussion amongst ourselves. I
certainly don't want to inhib,t any questions from the public.
With that, I will entertain a motion. Perhaps we can have
discussion after that.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: I think we already had a
motion.
MS. STUDENT: Excuse me, I thought the hearing was closed
and we had a motion. And then there were questions from
different ones of the commissioners. That's my recollection.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: No, I don't --
MS. STUDENT: That's my recollection. I don't know if the
court reporter can read it back, but that's my recollection. But I
want to make --
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: But then I think the discussion needs
to remain up here, as a point of order, unless there's really a
point that needs to be clarified.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Well, just for procedure
standpoint, I didn't get all my questions answered -- CHAIRMAN WRAGE: I'm sorry.
Page 37
January 4, 2001
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: -- before the motion was
made. So procedure-wise, what do we do, just squelch those
questions then?
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Well, not really. I tried to leave the
question period open as long as possible, you know, so no one is
squelched.
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: The motion came before I
had a chance to ask more questions.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: We're at the motion point.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: We got the motion.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Then we're still until discussion.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY: All right. If I'm -- excuse me,
Marjorie?
MS. STUDENT: Go ahead, that's all right.
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY.' I'm reminded of one of the
Lewis Carroll books in the Alice in Wonderland series Through
the Looking Glass. And Alice -- the queen said to Alice, why
Alice, I believe a half a dozen impossible things before breakfast
every day.
Well, unfortunately for this petitioner, I've already had
breakfast today. I view this as either an earth mining operation
or an attempt to establish that there's a viable economic higher
use for this property to use as a tool in any eminent domain
proceeding.
I don't believe aquaculture is really a part of the game at all.
If it is, it's going to be done in sort of a superficial way to keep
the hounds at bay. In three years we'll go out there and find that,
oh, this was a tough winter, the fish all died. We'll find that the
alligators ate all the fish, or we'll go through a song and dance
and we'll put it off and say well, we'll go back in another three
years. And at the end of the earth mining operation, we're going
to have two three, four 20-acre holes out there with no fish, and
the applicant, the petitioner, has reaped the income from his
land mining operation. It's clear to me as the nose on my face.
So I can't support this petition at all.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Commissioner Abernathy, your
discussion borderlines on lecture, I think.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Mr. Abernathy, I can only say by
way of discussion that as a landowner in the county, I have been
approached within the last six months for available lands for
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January 4, 2001
commercial fishing operations. So I think that there is, from my
aspect, a viable, you know, business out there for that. Now, you
may be 100 percent correct, I'm not going to argue that, but I can
state that there are folks out there that are very interested in
this.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Any further discussion?
COMMISSIONER RICHARDSON: Just one comment, Mr.
Chairman. The three-year period that we're going to have an
overview on this, I know that at least The Conservancy has
indicated they'd like to have an institutional involvement in the
review during this period to see if it's an ade -- if this in fact is
being used. I think they represent an opinion that the EAC
certainly took into consideration. And I'd like to ask the
motioner to include something along that line in his motion.
COMMISSIONER BUDD: I'd like to leave the motion as it is,
because The Conservancy is a private enterprise, and as much
as they are respected, the county professional staff is also
respected and certified in all appropriate training for an
environmental review, as would be appropriate. If they feel they
want to bring someone else along, they can cross that bridge
when they get there. But I don't see where we have the
authority, if this was an addition on a house, that we would
authorize some other neighbor to come look at the house at
some future time on someone else's private property. I don't
think we have the authority and I don't think it's appropriate, so
I'd rather keep the motion as is.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: And finally, I'd like to point out to the
commissioners, you have before you a finding of fact. You have
four issues here in terms of your recommendation. And those
four, and really those four, are your consideration.
So any final discussion? If not, all in favor of the motion,
signify by saying aye.
COMMISSIONER PEDONE: I think Marjorie would like to --
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: I'm sorry.
MS. STUDENT: I just wanted staff to clarify for the record,
apparently there was some confusion about when the three-year
time period runs. For staff to clarify for the record, and then
what -- how we would look at it, so you know if the permit that
the three-year period runs from, if they for some reason don't
apply for that, then what will happen?
Page 39
January 4~ 2001
MR. BADAMTCHIAN.' No, the stipulation is clear. And we
had the same stipulation yesterday as we have it today.
MS. STUDENT: Apparently there was some confusion about
that, because some people --
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Yesterday they said -- I said that they
are going to have three years. After that we are going to go and
make a site visit to make sure it's a bona fide agricultural use.
Probably I failed to say that that year will start from the day they
obtain a clearing permit. Which I didn't today also until Mr.
Richardson asked me that.
MS. STUDENT: And they obtained that permit from the
county.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: They obtained a clearing permit from
the county.
MS. STUDENT: And what would happen if they for some
reason didn't obtain that permit, it would just go on indefinitely
then and --
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Then they're in violation, if they don't
obtain a permit.
MS. STUDENT: No, not if they did anything, if it just lay
there dormant. I'm just trying to open end this.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: If they don't do anything with it, the
conditional use expires in three years anyway. That's in our
Land Development Code.
MS. STUDENT: That's true, so --
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Okay?
MS. STUDENT: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER PRIDDY: Aye.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: I thought I said that once. All of those
signify -- in favor of the motion, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
COMMISSIONER ABERNATHY.' Aye.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: I believe that's 5-1.
And with that, we are down to old business. I don't have
any. Ron?
MR. NINO: No.
CHAIRMAN WRAGE: Any new business?
Public comment from anyone? If not, I believe we are
adjourned.
Page 40
January 4, 2001
There being no further business for the good of the County,
the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10.'00 a.m.
COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION
GARY WRAGE, CHAIRMAN
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT
REPORTING SERVICE, INC., BY CHERIE' R. LEONE, NOTARY
PUBLIC
Page 41
COLLIER COUNTY GOVERNMENT
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES DIVISION
January8,2001
PLANNING SERVICES DEPARTMENT
2800 NORTH HORSESHOE DRIVE
NAPLES, FL 34104
Mr. Miles L. Scofield
Scofield Marine Consulting
3584-B Exchange Avenue
Naples, FL 34104
REFERENCE: BD-2000-31, Charles W. Griffin
Dear Mr. Scofield:
On Thursday, January 4, 2001, the Collier County Planning Commission heard and approved
Petition No. BD-2000-31.
A copy of CCPC Resolution No. 2001-01 is enclosed approving this use.
If you have any questions, please contact me at 403-2400.
Sincerel/}~ ~~
Ross Gochenaur
Planner II
g/admin/BD-2000-31/RG/im
Enclosure
c:
Mr. Charles W. Griffin
19 East Pelican Street
Naples, FL 34113
Addressing (Peggy Jarrell)
Land Dept. Property Appraiser
M. Ocheltree, Graphics
PHONE (941) 403-2400 FAX (941) 643-6968 www. co.collier. fi.us
CCPC RESOLUTION NO. 2001- 01
RELATING TO PETITION NUMBER BD-2000-31 FOR
AN EXTENSION OF A BOAT DOCK ON PROPERTY
HEREINAFTER DESCRIBED IN COLLIER COUNTY,
FLORIDA.
WHEREAS, the Legislature of the State of Florida in Chapter 125, Florida Statutes, has
conferred on all counties in Florida the power to establish, coordinate and enforce zoning and such
business regulations as are necessary for the protection of the public; and
WHEREAS, the County pursuant thereto has adopted a Land Development Code (Ordinance
91-102) which establishes regulations for the zoning of particular geographic divisions of the County,
among which is the granting of variances; and
WHEREAS, the Collier County Planning Commission, being the duly elected and constituted
Planning Commission for the area hereby affected, has held a public hearing after notice as in said
regulations made and provided, and has considered the advisability of a 108-foot extension of a boat
dock from the permitted 20 feet to allow for a 128-foot boat dock facility in an RSF-4 zone for the
property hereinafter described, and has found as a matter of fact that satisfactory provision and
arrangement have been made concerning all applicable matters required by said regulations and in
accordance with Section 2.6.21. of the Collier County Land Development Code; and
WHEREAS, all interested parties have been given the opportunity to be heard by this
Commission in public meeting assembled, and the Commission having considered all matters presented;
NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED BY the Collier County Planning Commission of
Collier County, Florida, that:
The petition filed by Miles L. Scofield, of Scofield Marine Consulting, representing Charles W.
Griffin, with respect to the property hereinafter described as:
Lot 35, Isles of Capri, Unit 1, as described in Plat Book 3, Page 48, of the Public Records
of Collier County, Florida.
be and the same is hereby approved for a 108-foot extension of a boat dock from the permitted 20 feet to
allow for a 128-foot boat docking facility in the RSF-4 zoning district wherein said property is located,
subject to the following conditions:
All docks, or mooring pilings, whichever protrudes the greater into the water, regardless
of length shall have reflectors and house numbers four (4) inches minimum size installed
at the outermost end on both sides.
In order to address the protection of manatees, at least one (1) "Manatee Area" sign shall
be posted during construction.
o
Permits or letters of exemption from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the Florida
Department of Environmental Protection shall be presented prior to issuance of a building
permit.
All exotic vegetation as defined in Section 3.9.6.4.1 of the Land Development Code shall
be removed from the site and the property shall be maintained exotic-free in perpetuity.
BE IT FLIRTHER RESOLVED that this Resolution relating to Petition Number BD-2000-31 be
recorded in the minutes of this Commission and filed with the County Clerk's Office.
This Resolution adopted after motion, second and majority vote.
Done this 4th day of January ,2001.
ATTEST:
COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION
Community Development and Environmental
Services Interim Administrator
Approved as to Form and Legal Sufficiency:
Marj~udent' ~
Assistant County Attorney
g:/admin/BD-2000-31/RG/im
-2-
COLLIER COUNTY GOVERNMENT
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES DIVISION
January 8, 2001
PLANNING SERVICES DEPARTMENT
2800 NORTH HORSESHOE DRIVE
NAPLES, FL 34104
Mr. Miles L. Scofield
Turrell and Associates, Inc.
3584-B Exchange Ave.
Naples, FL 34104
REFERENCE: BD-2000-33, Edward W. Scott
Dear Mr. Scofield:
On Thursday, January 4, 2001, the Collier County Planning Commission heard and approved
Petition No. BD-2000-33.
A copy of CCPC Resolution No. 2001-02 is enclosed approving this use.
If you have any questions, please contact me at 403-2400.
Sincere
Ross Gochenaur
Planner II
g/admin/BD-2000-33/RG/im
Enclosure
c: Mr. Edward W. Scott
8557 US HWY 20
Michigan City, IN 46360
Addressing (Peggy Jarrell)
Land Dept. Property Appraiser
M. Ocheltree, Graphics
e
PHONE (941) 403-2400 FAX (941) 643-6968 www. co.collier. fi.us
CCPC RESOLUTION NO. 2001- 02
RELATING TO PETITION NUMBER BD-2000-33 FOR
AN EXTENSION OF A BOAT DOCK ON PROPERTY
HEREINAFTER DESCRIBED IN COLLIER COUNTY,
FLORIDA.
WHEREAS, the Legislature of the State of Florida in Chapter 125, Florida Statutes, has
conferred on all counties in Florida the power to establish, coordinate and enforce zoning and such
business regulations as are necessary for the protection of the public; and
WHEREAS, the County pursuant thereto has adopted a Land Development Code (Ordinance
91-102) which establishes regulations for the zoning of particular geographic divisions of the County,
among which is the granting of variances; and
WHEREAS, the Collier County Planning Commission, being the duly elected and constituted
Planning Commission for the area hereby affected, has held a public hearing after notice as in said
regulations made and provided, and has considered the advisability of a 47-foot extension of a boat dock
from the permitted 20 feet to allow for a 67-foot boat dock facility in an A-ST zone for the property
hereinafter described, and has found as a matter of fact that satisfactory provision and arrangement have
been made concerning all applicable matters required by said regulations and in accordance with Section
2.6.21. of the Collier County Land Development Code; and
WHEREAS, all interested parties have been given the opportunity to be heard by this
Commission in public meeting assembled, and the Commission having considered all matters presented;
NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED BY the Collier County Planning Commission of
Collier County, Florida, that:
The petition filed by Miles L. Scofield of Turrell and Associates, Inc., representing Edward W.
Scott, with respect to the property hereinafter described as:
Parcel 22, Section 14, Township 51 South, Range 25 East a/k/a a part of Government Lot
2, Collier County, Florida (Exhibit A)
be and the same is hereby approved for a 47-foot extension of a boat dock from the permitted 20 feet to
allow for a 67-foot boat docking facility in the A-ST zoning district wherein said property is located,
subject to the following conditions: [
1. All docks, or mooring pilings, whichever protrudes the greater into the water, regardless
of length shall have reflectors and house numbers four (4) inches minimum size installed
at the outermost end on both sides.
In order to address the protection of manatees, at least one (1) "Manatee Area" sign shall
be posted during construction.
Permits or letters of exemption from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the Florida
Department of Environmental Protection shall be presented prior to issuance of a building
permit.
All exotic vegetation as defined in Section 3.9.6.4.1 of the Land Development Code shall
be removed from the site and the property shall be maintained exotic-free in perpetuity.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Resolution relating to Petition Number BD-2000-33 be
recorded in the minutes of this Commission and filed with the County Clerk's Office.
This Resolution adopted after motion, second and majority vote.
Done this t~th dayof January ,2001.
ATTEST:
JEOx~utiMv~ sD~alTCK' III
Community Development and Environmental
Services Interim Administrator
COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION
COLLIER COUNTY FLORIDA
Approved as to Form and Legal Sufficiency:
Marj orie6M. Student
Assistant County Attorney
g:/admin/BD-2000-33/RG/cw
-2-
05 O0 04:44p Turfell & Rssociates, Inc (9411 643-6632 p.2
3785 N. AIRI~ORT ROAD, $UXTE A
NAPLES, FLOR/DA 34105
WITHOUT REVIEW OR OPINION OF TITLE
02/08/Z00~ ~ 09:HAK D¥[G~? I. ~OC%,
419~.OQ
Retn:
~ICK u~
P.~e] ]D Numar. 00720880005
O,an~ #l I~N: 318-20-1376
Warranty Deed
This Indentur~ Made this ~ %('~ dayof February
M. L. SMITH and DIANNE C. SMITH, husband and wife
2000 ^.D.. Between
of mc C~mnty of' Collier
EDWArd) W. SCOTT, a married
$c~e of Florida
, gra!~lor-% ~4
,~,o$ ~ ;,: 6557 U.S. HIGHWAY 20, Michigan City, IN 46360
uf ~c to.n= o~ La Porte , Sac ~ Indiana , K~nte~
' Withesseth ~, ~ o~o~. r~ ~ m ~.fi~ or~ ~ of
......................... TEN ~L~ ($10) ~o~s.
I~nB~~of Collier $~ of Florida
~L T~T P~T OF ~~NT LOT 2, IN S~CTION 14, ~SHIP 51 SOUTH,
~GE 25 E~T, LYING ~OUTH OF A LI~ 2,571.57 ~ET.SOUTH, ~D ON
A FE~ENDICU~, OF ~D P~LT,~L TO THE NORTH LINE O~ SAID SECTION
BKING A STRIP OF ~ KXTENDING FR~ T~E ~F OF ~XICO TO THE ~Y OR
IN~D WATERWAY; T~ETHER WITH ~ ~IP~I~ RIGHTS ~PURT~T
TRENTO.
Subject to res=fictions, reservations and easements common to the
subdivision, and taxes subsequent to 1999.
The property herein conveyed DOES NOT constitute the HOMESTEAD
property of the Grantor. The Grantor's HOMESTEAD address is 705
Meyer Drive, Naples, FL.
00-2
and II~ gmt~ta do hereby fully we,ran, ~c tide Io a~d land, and will defend 'gm ~amc agaJmd tawlld claims of All persons whom~-v=.
In Witness Whereof, ~ ~an~, ~ h=c,~r, to ~, m~ m~ ~ ~ m= ~v ,~ y~, r,,~ ~.,~= 0~,,~,.
$igned~.~ed and delivered in our prcseacc:
Printed Name: ~da Davis
Wi tries s
P.O. Ad&~s: 7~ Mg%'ER DtII%'E. N,~ FL 34120
D~g c 7 S~ZT~- -
?.0. Address: 7~ MEYER DR IVF. Na~ ~ 34120
STATE OF Florida
COUNTY OF Collier
~]m £o~-oinG in~mm~t was u. knoMGiz=i ~fom ~ ~ ~ d~y of F~ruary
M. L. SMITH and D~E C. SMITH, husband ~d wife
? "'. ~' ~.~.~.~,,~t No~ Public'
......... ~ ~ .~--~-~-~ My ~mis~ ~
,2000
Exhibit "A"