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CLB Minutes 12/13/2000 WDecember t3, 2000 TRANSCRIPT OF THE PUBLIC WORKSHOP OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida, December 13, 2000 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in WORKSHOP SESSION in Building "B" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRPERSON: Gary Hayes Walter Crawford, IV Bob Laird Arthur Schoenfuss Carol Pahl Sara Beth White NOT PRESENT: Les Dickson Richard Joslin Daniel Gonzalez ALSO PRESENT: Patrick Neale, Attorney for the board Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney Thomas Bartoe, License Compliance Officer Ed Perico, Building Director Bob Nonnenmacher, Chief License Compliance Officer Paul Balzano, License Compliance Officer Page December 13, 2000 CHAIRMAN HAYES: I guess we can start. Any reason we can't? I'm going to call this meeting to order, Collier County Contracting Licensing Board, December 13th, at 9:02 a.m. This is a workshop, so I'm going to have a roll call. A little bit different agenda lineup than we normally do. Starting to my right. MR. CRAWFORD: Walter Crawford. MR. LAIRD: Bob Laird, public member. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Gary Hayes. MS. PAHL: Carol Pahl. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Arthur Schoenfuss. MS. WHITE: Sara Beth White. CHAIRMAN HAYES: The only item on our agenda is under old business, the workshop for licensing ordinance amendments. We have three currently. We have guests here today, so if there's more that we want to talk about besides the three specifically on the agenda, then we'll do that at the end of the meeting. The three that we're going to talk about this morning are glass and glazing. It's under Section 1.6.3.22, considering the combination of adding wordage to this license to include integral hurricane shutters or an additional license to include them on separate license; drywall license, as it relates to fire-sating installation; and the sealing and stripping license, as it relates to limitations on patching. We can start with glass and glazing. Mr. Neale, do you want to start that out? MR. NEALE: Yeah, there was -- it came before the board on a matter that a glass and glazing contractor was installing -- I believe was installing hurricane shutters, and it's not a permitted activity under the current license. Although the hurricane shutters that were apparently being installed were somehow integral with the window system or were part of a window system that was hurricane certified. So it came before this board as to what the -- where the license categories should be for the installation of hurricane shutters in general. Further, a member of the construction community came to county staff and talked to them about a separate hurricane and Page 2 December 13, 2000 shutter installer category that's been created in Palm Beach and apparently in some other counties. So the board agreed to bring it forward today as to reviewing what the appropriate licensure requirements are, what category it should fall in, and where -- how we're going to draft this thing up so that it best serves the public and the contracting community. So that's where we're at. There are a couple of suggestions on the table, and the board's going to consider them and then make a recommendation to the County Commission. One thing to note is whatever this board does today is not a final action or final decision. Whatever the board does today and in its future meetings is solely a recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners when the ordinance comes up for amendment, probably sometime after the first of the year. In fact, certainly after the first of the year, because we're not going to be done before the end of December. But it will probably be coming up probably on a February or March cycle before the Board of County Commissioners. Going forward on that, suggestions that have been made basically are one, to include in the glass and glazing license a provision whereby people with a glass and glazing license could install window systems and shutter systems that are integral with window systems as part of that licensure category. Second suggestion is that there be created a new hurricane shutter installer license here in Collier County, and that anyone who would seek to install hurricane shutters would have to obtain a copy of that license. Part of the reason for that is that Experior has created a new testing category for a hurricane shutter installer, a one-hour test category. So I think that wraps up basically the two options. One other issue that just came to my notice as we were reviewing the ordinance is that an aluminum contractor ordi -- section or aluminum contractor license mentions awnings and security shutters, but does not currently include hurricane shutters. And now that there is a separate Experior test for hurricane shutters, I think the board needs to review whether that test should be part of there, if the person wants to also install hurricane shutters, or we need to find out if the current aluminum contractor test requires or includes the hurricane shutter installer questions. So that's where we are now. Page 3 December 13, 2000 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. The way I believe that we left the meeting last time, or maybe it was even the time before, we had recommended as a board to adopt new hurricane license wordage. I believe Mr. Nonnenmacher, did you bring that in to us? MR. NONNENMACHER: No, sir, I didn't, no. MR. NEALE: I have it here. Yeah, the hurricane shutter installer language would read that -- and obviously it needs to be polished a little, but it would say that the hurricane shutter installer license requires -- and you need to put in some level of experience, be it 12 or 24 months -- experience with a passing grade on a one-hour hurricane shutter installer's test and a two-hour business and law test. It means those who are qualified to install, maintain repair or replace shutters and awnings that are designed to protect residential and commercial dwellings from hurricane and storm force winds, all in accordance with Collier County amendments to the standard building code, as amended from time to time. Any electrical work connected with the installation of the shutter drawings must be done by a certified electrical contractor. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, I think we -- at the last meeting we recommended or made a -- voted to recommend to adopt that into our ordinance as a new license category with some amendments. I think there was an amendment or two that we were concerned with, some wordage that we were concerned with that we probably did need to have in there. But other than -- MR. NEALE: Yeah, that's -- the version I read you included the -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. NEALE: -- removal of-- some extraneous terms. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, so we have already made that recommendation, this board has. So now we're considering leaving it at that and saying that the contractors that are currently doing hurricane shutters with their current license, if it's not specifically recommended in their license, that they need to go and pick up this license. Now, I think the experience won't be an issue because if they've already been doing it under their license, they'll have that experience and it will be easy to attest to. And in a lot of cases some of these licenses have already been carried, the -- or have Page 4 December 13, 2000 the testing, both the technical testing and the business and law, should it be required. So it really won't be a big deal for those people to pick up that license. Is that what you're trying to say? MR. NEALE: Well, no, the only issue -- there's a couple of issues that have come up. One is -- and we need some expert testimony from somebody here -- does the current aluminum contractor testing include the hurricane shutter testing? And that's something this board I don't believe is cognizant of. That's an issue. And secondly, the board needs to make a recommendation as to the amount of experience, be it 12, 24 or 36 months, that needs to be shown up. So those are things that need to be included in the ordinance. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any input from the staff? MR. BARTOE: For the record, Tom Bartoe. Mr. Neale, what you read about electrical work connected with the installation of shutters or awnings must be done by a certified electrical contractor? MR. NEALE: Or a licensed electrical contractor. MR. BARTOE: Yeah, because we have certified and registered. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Hayes? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, sir. MR. NONNENMACHER: For the record, my name is Bob Nonnenmacher. One problem that came up that Mr. Neale brought up was that in the aluminum contractor's license, there is no wording for hurricane shutters, although that's the trade that has been doing hurricane shutters. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It has the words security shutters. MR. NONNENMACHER: Security shutters. And I think we all can agree they're basically pretty much the same. If we're going to go strict interpretation that hurricane shutters are not included in the aluminum license, then it would be very hard to grandfather anyone in. Whereas, if we all agreed that hurricane and security shutters were basically the same thing, what you brought up wouldn't even be necessary. Because anyone that had an aluminum license, if we did decide to create a shutter license, a hurricane shutter license, would have what, 60 or 90 days, I forgot how much time we give Page 5 December 13, 2000 them, to be grandfathered in and just issue automatically a license. As far as the glass and glazing people, they have never had that in their category at all, and I think would have to decide exactly what to do with them as far as allowing them to do the shutters. But the aluminum people can be grandfathered right into the category on a separate license, and they'd have two licenses. I personally don't think that's necessary. I think their license itself carries it, and to spend more money for a new license is, you know, a little redundant as far as what their trade does. And grandfathering wouldn't be necessary. Just add it right into there. If you want the words hurricane shutter in there, then just add the words hurricane shutter, if it makes you feel more comfortable. But to have them go through a whole bunch of bureaucratic red tape serves no purpose. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Neale, it does, in Section 1.6.3.3, aluminum contractors, it does specifically say security shutters. MR. NEALE: Right. The point that I brought up is, you know, it does not say hurricane -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: How would they differ from hurricane shutters? MR. NEALE: Well, that's -- you know, certainly I'm not an expert on that, and that's why hopefully we can get some testimony on that. You know, the fact that the Experior does have a separate test now specifically on hurricane shutters, which includes questions on shutters, materials and components, shutters methods, shutters definitions, shutters tools and equipment, shutters estimating and shutters safety; includes questions on all of those categories. Are those same questions included in the aluminum contractor license is an issue that I think the board at least needs to look at. MR. LAIRD: Mr. Chairman, I certainly agree with what Mr. Nonnenmacher said. Makes sense to me. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I'm considering the possibilities, too, of just under the ordinance at 1.6.3.3, aluminum contractors, under the word -- in conjunction with the words security shutters, you may want to add security/hurricane shutters. MR. CRAWFORD: We can do that for clarity. I think it's pretty clear to everyone that security includes hurricane. It's Page 6 December 13, 2000 security from weather, security from break-in. I think it reads fine. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We have some people from the industry here today, and we're going to let them talk about it. Because just like we're saying, if they've been installing so-called hurricane shutters all along as part of their everyday business, it would be pretty tough to snatch it out of their license and make them go through getting another license. MR. CRAWFORD: I agree. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, I'm ready to listen to some public input, people that are here today regarding this issue. We want the first person to step up to this table and sit at this chair. You're going to have to speak loudly. We don't have a microphone, and our court reporter is bound to record your sayings. MR. LAIRD: The lady standing, if she would like to find a seat. UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: I'm fine, thanks. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You want to -- you want to come up and let us know what you feel about it? MR. MONNOT: Yeah. I'm Ray Monnot with Aluminum Specialties. I have a state aluminum contractor's license. So first thing is you have a state license and then you have a Collier County competency license. The two things that I wanted to bring out that are most important about shutter and shutter systems, or what I feel are important, are number one, you're dealing with the safety, health and safety of the general public. I mean, these shutter systems go up to protect homes and the individuals inside them from harm. So it's paramount that whoever is installing these systems understand how they should go up. There's engineering that comes with the different shutter systems and it's very -- extremely specific, and getting more specific about how these should go up. The fasteners that are used, the number of fasteners that are used, on and on and on. The other thing that I wanted to bring forward is that shutters in and of themselves -- for example, and let's go up to and talk about roll-down shutters and motorized shutters. To cover a -- what I would say is a standard house, or just pick an Page 7 December 13, 2000 average house in Collier County, that homeowner could spend very easily on, if he wanted to cover his house with motorized shutters, up to $50,000. So you're talking about a tremendous amount of money that's in play here. And again, individual responsibility for this money as a contractor. When you deal with sums of money like that, you know, again the business test, Workers' Comp, common business knowledge is important. So those are the two things that I wanted to bring out. As far as my opinion about the glass -- I don't own a glass or glazing license. I certainly would have no problem with the glass people doing shutter systems that were incorporated in and shipped with the windows that they're putting in. In other words, if the shutter system was integral to the window that they're putting in and shipped from the same manufacturer, boxed together, I have no problem with that. But if they're going to go beyond that and want to put in storm panels or accordions or roll-down shutters, which are the three principal categories, then I think they should have to take a test. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You feel there's a difference between security -- the definitions of security shutters and hurricane shutters? MR. MONNOT: I do not. I think it's for conversation purposes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So in your mind, security shutters do mean hurricane shutters? MR. MONNOT: In my opinion. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Have you been installing hurricane shutters? MR. MONNOT-' I install only the hurricane panels, which are the low end of the market. These are the manual panels that the homeowner has to put up manually. I don't put in the accordions, nor the roll-downs. Those are the more higher end. Good, better, best, if you will. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do you feel that your license and scope of work to be a licensed aluminum contractor has within it enough skill and knowledge to do all those facets of hurricane shutters? MR. MONNOT: You know, I really don't. I really don't. I feel if I wanted to move into the -- especially the roll-down shutter Page 8 December t 3, 2000 end, that really gets fairly complicated. And especially when you tie in electric to it. I really think you really should be versed and take a test, even if it's a one-hour test. You should be willing to do that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Nonnenmacher, that was exactly my concern when we mentioned it. You know, if aluminum contractors' day-to-day normal basis include that in their scope of work and they'll bid on an awning one day and a hurricane shutter the next, then yeah, I completely agree to leave it alone. But if they do not have the scales by virtue of normally doing it, then they're not going to -- they're going to be allowed a license now to do something, if we render as a definition of aluminum contractor as hurricane shutter installer. MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, I agree with you up to a point. Who has been putting up these shutters all along? The aluminum contractor, just because Mr. Monnot didn't choose to go to the roll-down and the accordians -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: That was my next question. MR. NONNENMACHER: -- I mean, that's his pleasure. If we go along with what he says, are we going to divide up the different types of shutters? Say an aluminum contractor can put up the manual ones and then you need a hurricane shutter contractor to put up the accordion roll-down? MR. CRAWFORD: No, I don't think we want to go there. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I agree with that, too. MR. NONNENMACHER: Do we have any more aluminum contractors out here that put up shutters? MR. MONNOT: Steve. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Could we ask him? MR. NONNENMACHER: Maybe we could hear from him and find out how long they've been doing it. I believe he agrees that a security shutter, a hurricane shutter, in his opinion, he said was exactly the same thing, or close to being the same thing. And keep in mind, the electrical work isn't being done by the aluminum contractor. That's a licensed electrician. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anyway. MR. NONNENMACHER-' Yeah, they just install it and the motor's there and any electrician hooks it up. But if we take that theory, then no one in this county except general residential and building contractors can install shutters, Page 9 December 13, 2000 if it's not going to be in the category of aluminum. And everyone that's in business now is out of business until they take a test. Then we can't grandfather them. MS. PAHL: I've got a question. Are you required to take continuing education courses? MR. MONNOT: Yes, ma'am. MS. PAHL: You are. MR. MONNOT: As a state license contractor, I am. But I don't believe the county is -- the county competency license is required to do that. I may be wrong. MR. BARTOE: You're correct. MR. MONNOT: The county does not have to take continuing ed, so -- MR. BARTOE: A county aluminum contractor can do the same work he can do, but if you're county licensed, you do not have any continuing education. MS. PAHL: Because I'm concerned about what he was saying as far as the -- how the science advances every year. MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, I have a question for Mr. Neale then. Should we look into that? Is the county authorized to mandate continuing education or specialty contractors? MR. NEALE: Probably so, That's something Mr. Zachary and I would need to review, but I think probably is something that could be done. You know, one point I'd just like to bring to the board's attention and the staff's attention is in the past where there's been a change in the technology of a product or application, this board has acted to create new license categories for those specific kinds of applications. So it would not be unprecedented for this board to say there's been enough of a change in the technology of hurricane shutters that those people who are doing that must now obtain a new license because of the changes. So that would not be unprecedented for this board. MR. MONNOT: Gary, if I could offer just one more point. As everybody knows, or should know or be cognizant of, we have a new building code that's supposed to come into effect July, 2001, which will very much impact this trade. When I say trade, I'm speaking of the shutters, shutter industry. I mean, if we go from a 110 mile an hour wind code up to 130 or more, you're talking about a quantum leap in how these Page 10 December 13, 2000 things have to be put up, what they have to be put up with and so on, CHAIRMAN HAYES: And is that technology beyond your scope of work, do you think? MR. MONNOT: No, it's not beyond my scope of work. But again, the individual or company that's going to be involved in this trade is again going to have to gear up for this stronger code. I'll just use that for lack of better term. That's going to put more pressure on the -- MR. NONNENMACHER: But that means everyone. Even general contractors and building -- MR. MONNOT: There's no question about that. MR. NONNENMACHER: Everyone's going to start at ground zero. CHAIRMAN HAYES: But we're looking at making an amendment today for the future ordinance, and I just don't want to backstep on what we do today. Mr. Balzano? MR. BALZANO: For the record, Paul Balzano, contractor licensing. What I'm understanding what you're basically saying is because 10 years ago this gentleman wanted to be legal and install shutters, we told him to get an aluminum license, because we didn't have a category. Now he's been doing that job for 10 years. Now we're going to tell him now we want to have a real name and call it a shutter installer. I mean, they've been doing that work. I would think that anybody that would take an aluminum license after this one, if it's approved, would not be able to do shutters. That if you wanted to do shutters and aluminum, you get the two licenses. But the people doing it would be grandfathered in with the license they have. You just can't tell them they can't do it anymore. MR. NEALE: And that has been done in the past. It's not unprecedented also for the board to create a new licensed category and grandfather into that category certain members of a different license category because of their knowledge of the industry and so forth. But if they didn't have a license as of that time for any of the categories, to do that in the future, they would have to get a new license. Page 11 December 13, 2000 CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's right. MR. NEALE: So that is something this board could recommend to the County Commission. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So there's basically two options. If we -- with the current aluminum contractor's license, if we leave it the way it is, there is a slight ambiguity with the wordage of security shutters in the legal mind. So the options would be to either concede, add the word hurricane for description there, and say that if you're an aluminum contractor, you shouldn't have a problem doing aluminum shutters. On the other hand, the other option is to adopt the aluminum shutter -- the hurricane shutter license and grandfather all those aluminum contractors that apply for that license. MR. NEALE: There's two issues to that that I would suggest that the board should review. One is that does the current aluminum contractor test include testing on hurricane shutters, their installation and so forth? And two, does this board want to permit going forward -- if that -- you know, if that -- if that question is -- answer is no, then does this board want to permit aluminum contractors who have not taken a test on hurricane shutters to install hurricane shutters going forward. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Yeah. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Hayes, if no one has an objection, I'd like to ask the audience if there is an aluminum contractor out there that does strictly hurricane shutters or security shutters. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah, would you come on up, sir? That was my next question, too. MR. MARCZAK: Yeah, I'm Mike Marczak, with All-Weather Hurricane Shutters. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You specifically do hurricane shutters? MR. MARCZAK: Yeah, that's correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Not aluminum as a trade. MR. MARCZAK: That's correct, just hurricane shutters. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Are you licensed as an aluminum contractor? MR. MARCZAK: Yes, I am. CHAIRMAN HAYES: State or county? MR. MARCZAK: County. Page 12 December 13, 2000 CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you fall under our category aluminum contractor? MR. MARCZAK: Yes. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And you don't do anything but hurricane shutters. So it's reasonable to assume that under aluminum contractor, the definition security shutters, that meant hurricane shutters? MR. MARCZAK: Absolutely. MR. BARTOE.' Mr. Marczak, in the three-hour aluminum test that you took, did it include any questions, if you can remember, pertaining to installing hurricane shutters? MR. MARCZAK: It was several years ago. I think there was some stuff that related, but not specific. No, I don't think anything specifically about hurricane shutters. MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Marczak, how long have you been installing hurricane shutters? MR. MARCZAK: The company's been in existence for 16 years, and I've been the qualifter for the last maybe six now. But I've been with the company for over 10. MR. NONNENMACHER: Okay. And during those 10 years that you've been doing this type of business, has there been many changes in the shutter systems and technology? MR. MARCZAK: As the codes go up, the shutters get limited to what they can do as far as spans go. And that's where the real big changes come up from. Where years ago, pre Andrew, you might be able to span with one particular kind of shutter six or seven feet, now that same shutter has dropped down to three feet in what it can span without any kind of supports. So it's just interpretation of the engineering that is the critical part there, and the fastening. All that's in the engineering. That's not tough. And no license is going to change that. It's either you interpret it right or you don't. So whether you can do it or not, I don't think the license is going to change that. I mean, if you can do it, you can do it, if you're experienced. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, then let me ask you one more question in regard to the glass and glazing license. Originally the issue came up that if the hurricane shutter is an integral part of the windows, should a glass and glazing contractor be able to install that without a hurricane or aluminum contractor's license? Page 13 December 13, 2000 MR. MARCZAK: I don't know a whole lot about the glazing industry. I would imagine a product like that is going to come with its own specific engineering to show how it gets installed. So as long as they follow that, then yeah, there's no problem with that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's what we're concerned with, that we add the wordage, or consider adding the wordage glass and glazing to include specifically integral hurricane shutters with the glass installation, as opposed to requiring a glass and glazing contractor to have to give them -- have to get the new license. My concern, Mr. Neale, with that is the glass and glazing contractor won't be able to grandfather into the hurricane license. He will have to go through the entire gamut. MR. BARTOE: He should have to go through the whole gamut. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, but what I'm getting at, too, is I don't -- is there any glass and glazing contractors here today? In the absence that have -- oh, you are? UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: I do glass and glazing. I'm actually a general contractor. CHAIRMAN HAYES: My thoughts are that if in fact according to some of the new engineering designs that they come out in the near future integral, all one unit, hurricane shutter, glass window and everything, that a glass/glazing installer can't install it. Now, if it has caulking and glazing and everything is exactly the same as the window has always been in the past, that's kind of pushing him around a little bit. MR. BARTOE: I think we are planning on amending the ordinance. If it's integral with the window, with the hurricane shutter, yes he can do it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's what we were talking about earlier, and that's why I'm bringing it up, to include specifically is integral systems only I don't think is crossing the lines with what this gentleman knows what to do with the science behind hurricane shutters and what a glass/glazing contractor knows about installing windows, I don't think that's crossing the line. Just like Mr. Monnot said earlier, if it's strictly integral with his windows, then even the aluminum contractor or the hurricane shutter contractor is kind of green on how you caulk and glaze windows and sash windows; isn't that correct? Page 14 December 13, 2000 MR. MARCZAK: That's correct. MR. NEALE: I do have one -- Mr. Marczak made the statement that a license or a test is not going to change something as long as you have the experience to do it. Well, if the board adopts that, then we would have no testing at all and we'd just have a pure apprenticeship system. So my belief is, you know, I would suggest to the board that a testing requirement of some sort is still essential. CHAIRMAN HAYES: For? MR. NEALE: For anything. CHAIRMAN HAYES: For anything. MR. NEALE: I mean, if you adopt that logic -- the line of logic that a license in a test does not change whether somebody knows how to do something or not, then you would make the assumption that testing is completely irrelevant and superfluous. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, there are three issues and one has been settled. We are in fact going to add a hurricane shutter licensing category, or we're recommending it to the County Commission, to our ordinance already. The next question is, do -- I guess is it reasonable -- Mr. Neale, you -- one of the legal individuals. From the industry we have been satisfied with saying that security shutters means hurricane shutters. Specifically from a legal standpoint, even you, Mr. Zachary, should we consider adding the word hurricane in there for legal clarification, or just leave that alone as it is? MR. NEALE: I think you need it if you're going to create a separate hurricane category. MR. ZACHARY: I agree, you could add just security or hurricane. MR. MONNOT: I believe that the term is storm shutters. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, our ordinance, the wordage we looked at specifically calls it hurricane shutters; isn't that correct, Mr. Neale, not storm shutters. MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. Yeah, it's very specific. And as I say, there is a separate Experior test that would be required. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Mr. Balzano? MR. BALZANO: I think the simple thing is like they did years ago, when the state started a roofing contractor and knocked the general contractors out of doing roofs, that some have a certain number and after that date they -- that was taken away from Page 15 December 13, 2000 them. The contractors that were licensed before a certain date, if you look at their number, you know what they can do. Why not just eliminate -- if you're going to have a storm shutter category, and this gentleman was told he had to be a licensed contractor at the time because we didn't have that category, eliminate the words storm shutters from aluminum. And anybody that wants to install shutters after a certain date, they would get the storm shutter license. If they want to be an aluminum contractor, get an aluminum contractor's license, and we would know by the cut-off date that those licenses with a certain number that were aluminum were grandfathered in to do storm shutters. MR. NEALE: And this board has the -- MR. BARTOE: Just eliminate the verbiage. MR. NEALE: This board has done that in the past. We've said all persons licensed in this category before a certain date now can do another type of trade. Anybody licensed after that date, you've got to take the separate license. So I would defer to the enforcement staff, but I would suggest that it would be simpler for them to tell if someone is appropriately installing aluminum shutters if everybody that was installing hurricane shutters had to have a hurricane license. And certainly I would suggest it would be easier for the homeowner, whose duty it is for this board to protect, to know whether someone who is installing hurricane shutters on their home did have a hurricane shutter license, is just my suggestion. As I say, I'll defer to enforcement staff on what would be easier for them. MS. WHITE: Question, Gary. We have no ability to incorporate the questions regarding hurricane shutters into our testing for aluminum? MR. NEALE: No, they're standardized tests. The only way you could do it is -- and it gets very complex at that point -- is you could have two categories of aluminum license, which would be accomplishing the same thing, which is saying you have to have a separate license. Because, you know, we -- as far as I've heard, we've heard no testimony that the specific hurricane shutter questions are included in the aluminum license testing. MS. WHITE: One other question. Are there any hurricane shutters that are not aluminum on the market yet? Page 16 December 13, 2000 MR. NEALE: I would imagine there's vinyl, plastic. MR. MONNOT: Sure. There's all kinds of products. MS. WHITE: Okay. So you would not install those. That would be a different -- MR. MARCZAK: It's included under the aluminum contractors license, vinyl, because it's basically-- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Remember, we can only speak one at a time. And when you're in the public out here, you need to speak loud enough so that our court reporter can hear you. That's all I'm going to ask you. UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: If you have to install engineering specifications, why is this even a question? I mean, it's engineering, you have to install it to those specs. Why is it necessary to have a separate license for it? CHAIRMAN HAYES: If we have to do it by engineering, why do we even have a have a license period then. UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Good question. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's one of those questions I don't think that we have the desire nor ability to answer. MR. NEALE: I would suggest to this board that any prefabricated products would fall under that same category, so you could say the same thing about water heaters. As long as you install the water heater correctly, why should you need a license to do it if can you read a book, if you can read the instructions. And I would suggest, Mr. Hayes, that you wouldn't let just anybody in the world wanting to install water heaters because they can understand the engineering of it. MR. HOGAN: Although this is all in spec and permitted jobs, that is your duty as an inspector to make sure it's installed per specifications of engineering, so back to what he's saying, why is this so necessary? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name? MR. HOGAN: Todd Hogan. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And you're with? MR. HOGAN: West Coast Glass Company. MR. MILLER: Yes, I'm Mark Miller, from Sunmaster of Naples. We've been in the shutter business since 1969, and as an aluminum contractor. But the term security shutter can be derived to mean a lot of different things. One of the main things that's happened over that period of Page 17 December 13, 2000 time is that the industry has expanded tremendously and so has the engineering. So what was called a security shutter today is interpreted into a hurricane shutter with a great more deal of engineering. Security shutters can also -- are the grates that go in Coastland Mall to close down the businesses, and those don't have any ratings. And I think that should be maintained as a security shutter. Hurricane shutters is another category, I think is very important, and having licensing for that. I do feel that if we've been doing the business in the proper channels that we've been doing it, we should be grandfathered into the new code. But the new code should differentiate the hurricane shutters. Peoples interpretation of those type of things is just that, they don't know one from the other. And I think that if the homeowner is buying hurricane shutters, then you should have a hurricane shutter license. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And that is exactly why we've asked you people to be here today, because none of us know all that knowledge. So you're basically saying that there is somewhat of a difference between security shutters and storm shutters. And for that reason then that hurricane shutter license makes a lot of sense to you. MR. MILLER: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And also then, as Mr. Neale had suggested I guess earlier, the process of grandfathering the aluminum contractors that wish to do hurricane shutters and have done hurricane shutters the past into the new licensing category and deleting the specifically right amount in this case, according to this gentleman, hurricane shutters. In other words, adding the wordage, or including the wordage security shutters in the aluminum contractor's license not to include hurricane shutters. MR. NONNENMACHER: Are we to assume then that Mr. Monnot has no idea what he's doing because of the technical advances of shutters now? Are we going to eliminate Mr. Monnot from putting up hurricane shutters because alls he does is install panels that people carry out and bolt on? MR. NEALE: No, that's not what we're saying. Page t8 December t3, 2000 MR. NONNENMACHER: I think that's what he said. That's what I'm concerned about. MR. NEALE: Not at all. No, the -- I think you're heading down a bad path here, Mr. Nonnenmacher. I mean, what I would suggest is that what the board is considering is saying, as Mr. Balzano suggested, those who are currently doing it as of a certain date are -- may continue to do so. However, anyone who wishes to do it in the future must obtain the new license, period. I think from an enforcement point of view, certainly looking at it from having advised the board on how to evaluate potential complaints, I would suggest it's much simpler to have a clearer definition of what a person may or may not do under a license. MR. NONNENMACHER: I stand corrected then. I misunderstood what he was saying. I agree with you totally, but I certainly don't want to see aluminum contractor be cut out of a business that he's been in for so many years. MR. NEALE: It would just be, you know, that the Board of County Commissioners would be the ones that would have to decide what that drop dead date was. And what I would propose to this board to recommend to the County Commissioners is that as was said before, if the -- with the changes, what would happen is an aluminum contractor would then essentially have two licenses. Now, they -- what I would also propose and it's been done in the past when the ordinance has been amended in that fashion is that however in order to get that new license, it just doesn't automatically drop out of the sky, is that the aluminum contractors who wish to have a hurricane shutter license would still have to go forward and apply for that hurricane shutter license. However, they would be deemed to have the experience and testing requirements already covered. CHAIRMAN HAYES: By virtue of their existing license. MR. NEALE: By virtue of their existing. And that's the way this board has done it in the past in these ordinance amendments where, you know, you're deemed to have the requirements because in the -- I think Mr. Hayes can remember, we've had numerous cases where a grandfathering provision had stopped and some fellow didn't think to apply for it and then three years later he says gee, I want to do this, realizes there's a Page 19 December 13, 2000 new licensing category and he comes and appeals to the board and says ! didn't know. Well, at that point the board in the past has said sorry, now you have to go take the license because you didn't take advantage of the grandfathering. So I think that that is the mechanism I would propose that the board use. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, does this board need to make a recommendation on any of the issues, or is there anyone else that wants to talk on this issue out here? MR. CRAWFORD: I have one question for the glazing contractors, aluminum contractors here. Where does the impact film come into your scope of work? Is that typically handled by a glazing contractor? MR. MILLER: Not handled by us. MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. So that would be considered part of the integral system then, I think for our purposes. It's my understanding you can apply a film or a coating to a window and achieve -- MR. MILLER: I don't think that is correct. You can't achieve those ratings. MR. CRAWFORD: I'm-- MR. HOGAN: So that's the question -- MR. CRAWFORD: -- I'm talking to the other side. But that would be considered part of the integral system then, the filming that's real popular now. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Monnot? MR. MONNOT: I'm glad you brought it up, because that was the last thing. I certainly don't want to complicate the issue, but the fourth category of protection is the film. And all of us that work with shutter systems understand that right now the most stringent code that I'm aware of is the Dade County code. This is the code that is -- if you meet the Dade County code, it is the most stringent. I have a question for the glass and glazing people, just for my own information. Does any of the films now on the market meet the Dade County code? MR. CRAWFORD: I don't think there's any glass and glazing contractors here. It's my understanding that -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, there is. MR. HOGAN: Well, my partner is in glass and glazing, and we did research a 3M product, and they did have Dade County Page 20 December 13, 2000 approval on theirs. It barely passed by the standards -- it broke -- it started pulling away from the frame, but it still stayed intact. MR. MARCZAK: I just got a 3M dealership with my company, and Ray, there are no film companies that have met Dade County rules, or any of the other counties. You cannot get a film that will meet code. MR. MONNOT: You have to address that. That has to be mentioned somewhere. Because for the public safety, Dade County is the operative code and it's the most stringent. And that is what we're being asked to meet. MR. CRAWFORD.' Well, as I understand now, under the current code in Collier County, you can't apply impact film that meets the current code. July 1st, when the new Florida building code is established, which will probably take the Dade County -- which will probably follow Dade County, then the impact -- MR. MONNOT: I'd like to hear that from -- are you folks requiring Dade County right now? Because that's what I'm trying to put in. MR. PERICO.' For the record, Ed Perico, building director. No, we're not. MR. MONNOT: You're not. MR. PERICO: Anything with Dade county. We have our own ordinance. MR. CRAWFORD: For this board's purposes, we just need to decide if the impact film is in the glass and glazing license or in the hurricane and shutter license or both. That's all we need to decide. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, Mr. Monnot's right, it's clouding the issue. I was hoping we could move along with some recommendations. I would like to still yet move along with some kind of a recommendation we've heard up to the film installation, and then we'll address that as a secondary issue. MR. NEALE: If you'd like, I can recount what I'm going to have to write on, so I'll -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. NEALE: -- recount what my understanding is, and please correct me if it haven't got it correct. The steps that I believe the board is suggesting is that aluminum contractors who have a license -- have an aluminum contracting license as of a certain date would be grandfathered Page 21 December 13, 2000 as to the testing and experience provisions for the new hurricane shutter and awning contractor license, and would be able to apply for such. That hurricane shutters would be -- hurricane shutters and awnings would be specifically excluded from the aluminum contractor licensing as of a date certain. That there would be an addition of the hurricane shutter and awning contractor license as a new category. And that added to the glass and glazing license would be language such that hurricane shutter or hurricane protection systems that are, I believe Mr. Monnot said, packaged with and shipped with window systems can be installed by the glass and glazing contractors. MR. CRAWFORD: I would prefer the word integral as opposed to pack and ship. MR. NEALE: Okay, integral with. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Could I get a motion on the board? MR. LAIRD: So moved, Mr. Chairman. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Second. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I need a second. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Second. MS. PAHL: I'll second it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any further discussion? You'll second it? All in favor? Opposed? (No response.} CHAIRMAN HAYES: the way. Super. Then we got that issue out of Okay, since we're that close to it, the film -- protected film, what are you calling it, impact film? MR. CRAWFORD: Impact protective film, correct. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It's not mentioned anywhere in these ordinances that I'm aware of. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Hayes, I can go to occupational license and get a license and install film on anything I want to. Any new construction has to meet codes. Any 20-year-old house that met codes when it was built, I can the put film on any one of them. I don't think we should look at that at all. That's my opinion. MR. NEALE: I would suggest that Mr. Bartoe is correct on Page 22 December 13, 2000 that one. That is that is -- and Mr. Perico can comment on this. I would suggest that's more something that would be handled better through permit, as opposed to licensure, until such time as the issue clarifies itself. MR. PERICO: I think if you're talking about glazing companies or glass companies that manufacture the windows and make that as part of their system and it's approved by the state, then that would become part of the system. Otherwise at this point we're not going to recognize it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So we need no action then on that. MR. CRAWFORD: Your point is that's an upgrade to current codes. You can build a house without -- MR. PERICO: There are no impact codes in Collier County at this point. But there will be when the new code comes into effect. But there again, the window can be designed to withstand all the impact, the wind loads and everything without hurricane protection, so to speak. And if that's part of the old engineered window, the whole package, that's fine. If it's not, then we're not going to go with it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. We're going to be moving along here. All of those individuals that had impact or was concerned and wanted to listen to our discussion on the hurricane shutters license, I appreciate you coming. You're more than welcome to sit in on the rest of it, if it doesn't bore you to death. But otherwise, I do appreciate your input and coming in here. Okay, I'd like to move along to the fire-sating issue. Last month we had an individual that was cited for doing fire-sating under a drywall license, and the question came up, do we have a specific license, and then of course no, we don't. We license such activities under the insulation contractor's license. And some of us were brought to some light that the drywailers -- or the inspection for drywall covering or structural inspection takes place prior to drywall covering. And if the drywall covering is not done according to the fire-sating, I assume that there's a fire inspector that comes in after that. And since it's part of his inspection failure, then we're questioning whether or not we should include fire-sating under the drywall ¢ontractor's license. Mr. Neale, do you want to go any further on that? Page 23 December 13, 2000 MR. NEALE: No, I think that's just the only place that fire-sating is -- fire-stopping, it's not even fire-sating -- fire-stopping is specifically mentioned is under 1.6.3.23(A) -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Page 17. MR. NEALE: -- which is on Page 22 of the ordinance I have. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, it's under 17 under the ordinance written. But you may have the codified version. MR. NEALE: I've got an old version. That's where fire-stopping is, is under insulation contractors, all types except buildings. So-- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, the ordinance that I have, and I believe that this is the amendment to 90-105 is 99-45. That specific wording is all types except buildings, requires 36 months experience in passing grade, three hours test and passing, so on, so forth. This means those who are qualified to install, maintain, repair, alter or extend any insulation primarily installed to prevent loss or gain of heat from internal or external sources on pipes, vessels, ducts, fire-stopping materials, sprayed on fire resistant materials or built-up refrigerated boxes or rooms and acoustical materials. Is that the one you have? MR. NEALE: Yeah, you've got current one. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That one is the one that has been construed as allowing fire-sating? MR. NEALE: Um-hum. Yeah, just an interesting point, and at least in the version that I have, fire-stopping was not included in the other category of insulation contractors. CHAIRMAN HAYES: In any other category? MR. NEALE: Well, if you look, there's a second category I believe, insulating contractors, insulating contractors in buildings. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I'm a little bit confused as to why A would say all types except buildings. What other is there besides a building? MR. NEALE: You've got that one, added, sprayed on. Well, and then what's interesting, that's insulation for regular (phonetic). So theoretically if you had the Type B license, you could not install fire-stopping. So that's something that -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: So when this was written to begin with, it was a little bit amiss? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. Page 24 December 13, 2000 CHAIRMAN HAYES: We haven't had any -- Mr. Bartoe, do you remember bringing a case to us at any time regarding some unclear activities under the insulation contractor's license? MR. CRAWFORD: No, the issue here is not about the contractor's license. I think that's fine as it's written. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm aware of that. MR. NEALE: We're probably into Section B, just if I may for a second. I would suggest that the board in Section B would install -- would add to that fire-stopping, simply because he would have to have a Class A license in order to do that. I don't know enough about it but -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, my only concern is that if it's not been confusing in the past, I don't even want to kick a dead horse. I'll just leave it the way it is and we'll go on with our issue and that is to add fire-sating. I guess it would be the words fire-sating to any other categories; in our case, specifically the drywall categories. Are there any other drywall contractors here today? Would one of you come up here and start with -- I need your name, for the record. MR. WALLS: Jeff Walls, president, Sheer Corporation, drywall contractor, Naples. What's kind of unique about what's happening in the fire-sating industry over the last, I'd say, 15 years, we've had a lot of new technology and improvement also our industry when it comes to fire-sating, and whole assemblies. We have had a wall assembly now which requires fire caulking and things of that nature. We have fire mud that didn't even exist six or seven years ago. And they really cross over. And I think the biggest key is, you know, the education on the products, making sure that the men that are actually installing it, the company that they work for, you know, that the men that are actually putting it on get the education from the new products and the existing products so that the application is correct. That's the biggest thing. And most of the insulation companies I know, you know, they're as new to the product as everybody else, so it's more of an education process from 3M or from Pelty Air (phonetic), whoever the manufacturer is, to make sure that they apply it properly to the -- whatever the assembly is. Page 25 December 13, 2000 CHAIRMAN HAYES: Have you been including that work in the past automatically in your drywall -- MR. WALLS: Yeah. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- stage? MR. WALLS: Yeah. Like I say, but it's kind of involved. I mean, take for instance a UL-338, which is a one-hour firewall. The way it was done 15 years ago and the way it's done today is -- there's quite a bit of difference. CHAIRMAN HAYES: But you had to stay current with that. MR. WALLS: Yeah. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Because you were actually bidding and being responsible for that -- MR. WALLS: Sure. You have to stay right up with it. I mean, you know, as a contractor, you know, I stay up with the -- with the changes all the time so that I can make sure I keep it in my bid so that -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. So you're going to suggest then as a matter of technicality, because it's already a matter of practice, that you're suggesting that we add the words fire safety to the drywall contractor's license. MR. WALLS: Yeah, without a question. Because you know it's happening already. You know, it's already an inner part of the system. Most of the drywall contractors build the wall, you know, put the drywall on, any caulking necessary. And then, you know, then you're just talking fire-sating, just any penetrations. But I think it should be, you know, the insulation companies should be able to do it also, because they're different types of constructions, commercial, residential. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. They perhaps may even just specialize in it. MR. WALLS: Right. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I understand. MR. NONNENMACHER.' Is it possible to put up drywall without fire stop? In other words, can you just put up your drywall and walk away from it and someone else come in and do that, or is it it has to be done during the installation of the drywall? MR. WALLS: A lot of it has to really be done along with the installation of the drywall. I mean, you know, in theory you could do it, you know, but it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. It Page 26 December 13, 2000 wouldn't be very practical. Especially in the trusses when you've got, you know, a guy who's doing a head of the wall and you're, you know, 30 feet in the trusses, to have him come down and have another crew come in to climb all the way to the top of the trusses. But that -- you know, biggest thing is training. As long as the guys that are doing it, you know, are properly trained, that's the biggest key. MR. NONNENMACHER: While you're doing that, do you ever run into insulation contractors say anything to you, they complain that you shouldn't be doing it, that it's their job? MR. WALLS: No. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Just been understood so far. Assumed. MR. WALLS: Yeah. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Appreciate it. Anybody else? Mr. -- MR. BENTON: I'm Rick Benton, president of Distinctive Wall Systems, here in Naples. I agree with Jeff, it is a lot on the educational factor. The question you asked, can you just do your drywall and walk away and let someone else do the other side, yes, that can happen, but that would depend on the different type of system that you would be putting in. If it's a two-hour system or something like that, well, then you're going to have to have, well, some insulation in between your dry walls, it's going to have to be inspected. Then you put another layer up. If it's a one-hour system, then all you have to do is seal the perimeters and penetrations. I think a lot of the educational factor that Jeff was touching on really comes down -- Captain Reynolds and I have been through this a couple of times, and it's -- everybody has to be on the same page. And that comes down to the inspectors. They each have their own interpretation up to this point. They could read the same paragraph and come up with a different understanding of what that service or product should look like when it's done. I've literally done a three-unit office building with two tenant separation walls. We did the one wall first, then the second and third spaces were leased out. The system I used on the first tenant separation four months prior did not work on the second. Now, if I'm in a bidding position and I have bid it one way and then they come in and it's inspected another way or wanting Page 27 December 13, 2000 to be something different, well, I haven't bid it properly dollar-wise, work-wise, hour-wise, labor-wise, the whole thing. And that starts playing a problem between myself and the general contractor, because now I need more money to do the same thing. That type of thing. It just -- the education has to come as an overall to get everybody on the same level playing field. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think that's another issue that we -- I would love to see us come to a round table and settle. It's been a thorn for quite some time is the standardization of fire code requirements, so that we're all playing on the same I completely agree with that. MR. BENTON: As far as the insulation company handling it or the drywall company, it really does fall a lot more on our profession than the insulation. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you would suggest the same thing, the words fire-sating be added to the drywall -- MR. BENTON: Certainly. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- contractor-- MR. BENTON: Certainly so. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- license. MR. NONNENMACHER: I'd like to ask Mr. Crawford a question, if I may. Do you agree with this? MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, I do. Absolutely. And that's why I brought up the last agreement. The one part I'm still unclear on, though, is it's my understanding that the pipe penetrations, half the time you'll seal the plumber's pipe penetration, the other half of the time he'll seal his own penetrations. MR. NONNENMACHER.' Right. MR. CRAWFORD: So we need to give the same latitude to the MEP contractor. MR. BENTON: With the plumbing, no. If it's PBC, then a collar needs to be put on. Now, that would be like Mike Pedone with Fire Stop Systems. Now, that I don't do any collar work and such like that. As far as a plumber, no, normally they'll come through, make their holes and we'll patch and repair behind them. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Used to be when they first started, Page 28 December 13, 2000 when the fire-sating department first came out, Mr. Crawford, yeah, each and every trade did their own, because it was like contractors, patch your own hole kind of attitude. As time has passed, most of us in the plumbing, electrical, air conditioning have tried to back away from it because it's too specialized and too specific for us to know from district to district and this, and that and the other. And I don't know, it's not a standard by any means, but most of the contracts that I see going through the process today do not include fire-sating by the specific trade. MR. CRAWFORD: I'm actually getting old. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Appreciate it. Anyone else? MR. REYNOLDS: My name's Carl Reynolds, fire marshal for North Naples Fire Department. And basically I agree with the respect that over the years as fire-stopping's been being done, and now basically when the building code -- when we adopted the last edition of the building code, in that building code it required that the head of the wall meet a certain requirement, which was the 500 cycles, if it's a wall with a joint that can move. The materials basically that's used is thermal fiber minerable (sic) fire rated wool that has to be installed in that gap, and then when the coating is sprayed on or painted on, as per the UL listing. Drywall companies have been doing this -- we knew no different. This was the first time that we had ever heard that they couldn't do the head of the wall is when this last case -- when this case came up. And until that point, they've always been doing their own -- not always. I mean, some of them so choose not to. And with the new requirements of the code, they would have another company come in, such as Mike or TTI or some of the other companies out here. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That would at least have that as an option. MR. REYNOLDS: Yes, sir, they have. And with the new requirements -- back to the insulation part of it, I'd like to cover also, they have already been required in the past, and per the UL directories -- this is what we follow -- is how that's supposed to be put together. And they, like Wall Systems and the others, when they're Page 29 December 13, 2000 building two-hour rated shafts in high-rises, some systems require and some don't as option to put thermofiber, which is a mineral wool, a fire rated wool, in those assemblies, which are not inspected by county inspections, they're inspected by the fire departments. Because it is part of that tested assembly. It's not there for an insulation thing, it's there as part of the fire rating. So they've been doing -- working with the mineral wool, which is a fire rated wool, forever. And it does come down to education. It's education for all. It's education for the fire inspectors, education for the contractors that's installing them. And we do still have -- I don't mean to disagree, but we do have a lot of contractors that do still do their own fire stop. We do have a lot of electricians, we do have a lot of plumbers that still do that. I mean, there's so much construction out here, there's no way that with the minimal amount of people that we have licensed in Collier County and Lee County that are licensed fire stop companies, they couldn't do it. There's no way. MR. CRAWFORD: That's what I'm concerned about is these gentlemen enforcing it to the strict letter of the law and all the electricians are in here next month. So I would like to give latitude -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah, we need to discuss that as well. MR. REYNOLDS: Because that was my understanding, that if you're a plumber, electrician, air conditioning, that you're able to do your own fire stop. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, the only concern that I have on that I guess being that does that now give them carte blanche to go out and be a fire-sating contractor? MR. REYNOLDS: I thought that was already the wording in the -- MR. CRAWFORD: It doesn't -- THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, I can only get one of you at a time. MR. REYNOLDS: Sorry. MR. CRAWFORD: Walter Crawford. I think it needs to be added to each trade as it relates to your scope of work. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Specific wordage. MR. CRAWFORD: What's the word you just called -- MR. BALZANO: Incidental to. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Incidental to. Okay, I like that. Page 30 December t3, 2000 MR. REYNOLDS: The one thing I would like to bring up as a suggestion is that maybe we should be setting some kind of a standard, even for the general trades, that they are meeting a standard by the manufacturer that they have been trained to install it. We require licenses for everything else, whether a plumber or electrician or whatever. Fire-stopping is a life safety issue. It is -- fire rated walls prevent gas and smoke from spreading. I still feel that because it isn't -- it's not specified, that it should be listed that the people that are doing the installations have some kind of-- show like you do for alarm systems, that they show a card that they have been trained and set some specific number of hours by manufacturers, whatever, that they know what they're supposed to be doing, that they know how they're supposed to install this product. If we do that, that's going to cut down on a lot of the confusion that's in the field. Because that's where the problem comes in is that we use the UL book. If you use a manufacturers' guide, it doesn't always include all the verbiage in UL. We won't use a manufacturers' guidebook, because we're not supposed to. We're supposed to use the testing facility for third flooring. And that's what we use. And that's where a lot of confusion comes in in the field between the general contractors and the fire inspectors is that we use that directory and not the manufacturers' guide, which is not what it's supposed to be installed to, it's what it's supposed to be tested to. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Wordage like that could be included in the code, the building code. If we had to do a code amendment to the Collier County Building Code amendment, we could consider wordage like that that would standardize the requirements from the code perspective, and then that -- MR. REYNOLDS: Maybe add that under the fire prevention code or something as well -- MR. PERICO: It can be done. MR. REYNOLDS: -- which is adopted by the county. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. MR. REYNOLDS: That's all I really have to say. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, super, appreciate it. MR. REYNOLDS: Thank you. Page 3t December 13, 2000 MR. NONNENMACHER-' I have one question for the certificate now. Maybe I'm misreading this again, but if a contractor does not have a certificate, then he can't do the job; is that what we're saying? CHAIRMAN HAYES: He's suggesting -- MR. NONNENMACHER: What about grandfathering that and MR. REYNOLDS: Well, I'm suggesting that basically that -- I'm not saying that it's -- it's not a certificate, but maybe it should be a certificate or a card that the guy that you have installing the fire stop products goes and get the classes. I'm not saying it starts tomorrow and everybody goes out and says hey, do you have a card in your pocket. But basically what I'm saying is maybe we should set a standard that if your -- you as a general contractor, no matter what trade, that if you're going to have specific people doing fire-stopping, which is a life/safety issue, that they should be trained by the manufacturer of that product to install it the way it's supposed to be installed. And the time period -- frame. It's not necessary -- there's no grandfathering to it in respect that the problem we have is that contractors go down, they'll hire somebody from the labor pool, bring them up, hand them a tube of caulk and say do the fire-stopping. And it's not really rocket science in the respect that what the gap is and what the depth and what this is, but if that guy has not been trained in it, he's not following it, and that's a lot of problems come in. MR. NONNENMACHER: Okay, the reason why I have so much concern over this is we're responsible for protecting the welfare of the public, but we're also responsible for protecting the licensed contractors. And a lot of times when I hear burdens and extra things that they have to do, it sort of upsets me. And if it's not a real valid reason to do it -- MR. REYNOLDS: Life safety? MR. NONNENMACHER: -- if you're going to make them do something and then have to stop their work because they don't have this particular certification, I'm totally against that. I'm all for the licensed contractor. We have enough unlicensed out there that hurt people. Most of our licensed contractors, as you see, if we have one or two cases before our licensing board, it's a lot. I'd like to keep it that way. Page 32 December 13, 2000 They're reputable. They're dependable. They cooperate with us all the time. And I just don't want to see unfair burdens put on them. And that's my main concern, that they don't stop working because they don't have a card from a manufacturer. MR. REYNOLDS: That's my point. It's not saying that it couldn't be done over a period of a year, whatever. But the point of it is that we're dealing with life/safety. And is it a burden? Maybe it is a burden. But shouldn't we be looking at life/safety as a -- I mean, that's what our job is, to look at it as a life/safety issue. MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes, I do agree with you, as long as you don't stop a contractor on the spot from working -- MR. REYNOLDS: Right. MR. NONNENMACHER: -- because he doesn't have a card. MR. REYNOLDS: And that's not what we do. And we didn't institute this -- the case that came up here, actually. This case came up because somewhere along the line somebody said this guy's not supposed to be doing this. They called us to go out and tag the job because that's what we were told to do. We went out and did it. We don't stop contractor jobs for not doing the fire stop correctly. We do the same thing as we do -- as the building department does for anything you do wrong. They're given a yellow tag for that trade or whatever that's not doing it correctly. And that would be the same thing. I'm just -- MR. NONNENMACHER: That's what I'm saying, we have a process in place right now that if they do mess up, just like a general contractor, a yellow card gets put on it, or a yellow tag gets put on it, and then we go back and reinspect to make sure it's correct. You know, I mean, I'm all for a certificate, as long as they can get it at their own pace and -- MR. REYNOLDS: That's my point is that it -- MR. NONNENMACHER: It will save the county money for yellow cards. MR. REYNOLDS: Right. Actually, it behooves the contractor to have his people trained. Because if you have someone trained to do the job, then you're not slowing down the job and it's not costing you money as the general contractor or the subcontractor. And it's also speeding the job up. So by having Page 33 December t 3, 2000 somebody that has been trained by somebody that -- by the manufacturer or whatever to install it correctly, you're actually speeding the process up. CHAIRMAN HAYES: It's good business, there's no question about that. MR. PERICO: Just for the record, Carl, I know you're a trained instructor. Would there be any way possibly that the building industry could get tied up with you to get some sort of certification or CEU's or something -- MR. REYNOLDS: Yes, sir. MR. PERICO: -- for this particular type of -- MR. REYNOLDS: Yes, sir. And we've already been discussing that with the -- where did he go? The CBI -- as in working with general contractors and setting up courses. It's not only for contractors, but for building inspectors, fire inspectors as well. Because building department is required to look at duplexes, which does have fire-rated petitions and stuff like that. So we do want to set something up and we do want to work with the building industry and offer it, whether it be weekends or whatever. MR. CRAWFORD: I think a continuing education is probably the way. But how can we add testing to the drywalling contractor's license to cover fire stopping? Or can we? MR. NEALE: Well, the --I've been pondering that. One thing that this board has done in the past, or the County Commission has done in the past, is we have the issue of the EIFS wall systems come in a couple of years ago, which was a product that -- or products, a group of products -- that were -- had a specific training and certification for their installation. And the board created a separate category of licenses for people to do that. Now, it's my understanding that that hasn't been utilized a great deal, but there probably -- I would suggest that we have some additional research, the board could add to a license category that the person under that license wishes to do "X", to do fire-stopping, that they would have to be certified by the manufacturer of the product they're using to be able to apply such. That's just -- but we'd be running into grandfathering issue and things like that. Page 34 December 13, 2000 MR. REYNOLDS: Real quick, on the testing part of it, I don't know that we could add just -- MR. CRAWFORD: Specifically to each product. MR. REYNOLDS: Yeah. Because otherwise what you'd be getting into is then are we going to add that to plumbers, electricians, because that is not what -- it's just under their -- the job that they do, the work that they're doing. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, appreciate it. Anyone else? MR. PEDONE: Mike Pedone, Fire Stop Systems. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I was going to say, Mr. Pedone, you should know the rules. MR. PEDONE: Yes, actually, I wrote that portion of the ordinance. I've been doing fire-stopping since 1980, when there was only a product called RTV foam. We do mainly spray fireproofing. We're doing work in Orlando right now where the architect for the school board in Orlando turns around and tells you that you must be a fireproofing contractor to do fire-stopping. Not a drywall, not a plumber. They want someone who's experienced in the fire business. I happen to agree, that there should be some sort of education for the people installing it, but not from the manufacturer. There are too many manufacturers. Are you going to get MediCorp., 3M, Spec Shield, Trimco, Nelson, IPC, AD? All of these people are going to have to give you a little card. It would be ridiculous. What I think we should do is have a completely separate licensing category for fire-sating and fireproofing and fire-stopping. There is a difference between fire-stopping and fire sating. Fire-sating is using a mineral wool with a fire rated elastomeric caulk or an intromission caulk on a perimeter of a building for a curtain wall or for a header wall joint. Fire-stopping is the use of a collar around PVC, or caulking around steel pipe going through walls or through concrete floors or through wood floors. They -- the easiest way, I would think, would be of course a separate license. But that might be a little difficult because I don't know if block exam even has one. We chose to put it under installation, all types, due to I think one phrase, which is transfer of heat. And that's what Page 35 December 13, 2000 fireproofing does, it stops the transfer of heat from one place to another. Whether it's warm air or flame, it's stopping it. Hopefully for a period of time, anywhere from 20 minutes to four hours. I really think that the fire department, all the fire districts, should get together and maybe once a year or twice a year have an educational seminar of which attendance is required by all of the employees of the companies doing the fire-stopping or the fire-sating, and to go have manufacturers' reps there at that time to go over any new systems that are out or any new categories, and then they can more or less be certified or given a card. My men have a card. They have a card from Medicorp. So what happens if we use a 3M, will my Medicorp card be okay because we're using 3M? It's just much too confusing. As far as the drywall contractors, I happen to believe they shouldn't be doing it. But of course I'm looking at my pocket. But I have gone on jobs where the drywall contractor has put up his wall and then he puts regular drywall mud with tape between the concrete floor and the drywall. That's a no-no. It's too dissimilar products. You have expansion and contraction, it's called a dynamic joint, you're going to get a crack. It's not going to work. It may take a year before that happens. But the people are in the building and now you have a crack. Wood trusses going through drywall on a firewall. They turn around and they plaster the wood. Well, that's totally useless. It's not going to do a thing. The way to actually do that would be to put up metal lathe and spray it with spray fireproofing. But we don't enforce that. I just think that fire-stopping and fire-sating should be in the hands of people who do that for a living. I have an all types license. I started off in the construction industry as a pipe coverer. That's what all types means. I was an asbestos worker. We insulated pipes, insulated ductwork, boilers, boiler flus, kitchen exhausts, any kind of a vessel that carried heat or cold. It was a natural for the fire-sating, to go into that, and the fire-stopping, because of the transfer of heat. I personally do not think drywall contractors, with the exception of a very few, have the capability to do a job properly and to pass an inspection, if it's done, a real good inspection, if the depth of the mineral wool is measured, if how the Page 36 December 13, 2000 elastomeric is put on. I see them still using 3M 25WD caulk. It does not expand. And you have that between the concrete and the drywall, between a metal deck and the drywall. When we do a drywall going to a metal deck where -- we're putting spray fireproofing. They all want us to spray fireproofing onto the walls so they don't have to stuff it. That's something that's our job. And we do an awful lot of header wall joints for drywall contractors or for general contractors. So the statement that oh, you know, you do most of it, actually, they don't, we do most of it. MR. CRAWFORD: In a perfect world it would be best to specialize that scope of work to a company such as yours, or to Bob. In the real world, there's probably 300 drywall contractors in Southwest Florida and maybe five of you guys. It just would be overwhelming, it's just -- MR. PEDONE: In the real world, do we care about life? As Carl said, it's life safety. We put -- when we do penetration fire barrier or fireproofing, in the back of my mind is that I'm responsible if there's a fire here. If there's a fire and there's a death or an injury, that's my fault. And so I make sure -- I mean, we goof too. But we will always go back and take care of a goof. But we try to do the best possible job we possibly can. We don't hand a tube of caulk to a guy who might have started last week and say run the caulk around the top of the wall or run it around the pipes. We have a case where we have a mechanical contractor, he has a mechanical license, he does core drilling. Along with core drilling, he sells the penetration fire barrier. He's subcontracting the core drilling from a plumbing contractor or another mechanical contractor, and he's selling the penetration fire barrier. To me that is a direct violation of the license. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Is he just selling it or is he installing it? MR. PEDONE.' No, he's installing it. That is in direct violation to his license. If he was the mechanical contractor installing the pipes or the ducts himself, then he could do it. But as he is subcontracting out to another mechanical, he should not be allowed to do that. We have another case right now in North Naples, Granada Shops. We have tilt wall construction. We have a four-hour wall Page 37 December 13, 2000 and we have an expansion joint which needs a four-hour UL system. They had a company called Metro Waterproofing, out of Dade County over there doing the job. You know, it's enough problem trying to find who's licensed and who's not licensed without spreading that license all over the place. Okay? We'd have drywailers can do it and plumbers and AC people and electricians. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I think that's definitely a good point. But the idea that limiting their ability to do it solely where it's integral with their specific trade would help that some. MR. PEDONE: We turn around -- excuse me. We turn around when we have a -- let's say a pipe coming out of the wall, a PVC pipe at a 45-degree angle. Terrible thing to do. It's just headache after headache on doing the proper job. One of the ways of doing it is to box out that pipe with an angular piece of drywall to make it a 90-degree coming out. So you'd have this protrusion coming out that looks like a triangle. Well, is that will part of my job? Because I'm trying to fire protect that pipe. I won't touch it. That's a drywaller's job, and it's under his license, not mine. And I would expect the same thing back from the drywaller for the header wall joints. That's under my license, not his. MR. NONNENMACHER: I have a question for Mr. Reynolds. Is what Mr. Pedone saying true, that they're putting wrong materials in here? MR. REYNOLDS: I have no idea what job he's talking about. MR. PEDONE: The Granada Shops. Immokalee and 41. MR. REYNOLDS: No, we haven't been there for any inspections yet, so -- MR. PEDONE: Okay. MR. REYNOLDS: -- I don't want to go there at this point. But I do want to cover the part about the header walls. If it is in a non-rated metal deck that it goes to, then it is a non-rated fire stop assembly. It is only a smoke screen. So he needs to clarify. Also, if the joint is listed by the engineer, and that's who is supposed to be designated, whether it is a dynamic joint that moves, or it is a static joint that moves, that changes the product that can be used in there. That's not my job to do, that's not his job to do. It's the engineer's job to put on there what type of system's supposed to be there. And if they do that, then they Page 38 December t 3, 2000 insure that's what they're installing. And if these guys are installing what is spec'd -- that's what they've been doing is -- MR. NONNENMACHER: So my question is then you're doing the inspections on the fire-stopping or sating of what drywailers do, MR. REYNOLDS: Right. MR. NONNENMACHER: Are they doing it correctly? MR. REYNOLDS: If they don't, they fail. MR. NONNENMACHER: I mean basically are they doing -- when you go out for an inspection you have -- MR. REYNOLDS: We had the same -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: One at a time. MR. NONNENMACHER.' When you go out and do your inspection and a drywaller has fire-stopped the joint -- and I use that term loosely, because I don't know the definitions -- is your pass ratio higher than your fail? Do they know what they're doing out there, the majority of the drywailers, when they do the fire-stopping? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Generally. MR. REYNOLDS: Generally, I would say it's about the same as we have with anybody that does that as a specific trade. For the header wall. I'm not talking penetrations, I'm only talking head of the walls, which is what we're discussing right now, which is about the wool and where the firewall comes to the deck. Because we fail license contractors as well as non-licensed contractors. Percentage-wise, it's going to be the same, but I can't give you a number. Because the thing of it is, is that it's either installed right or it's installed wrong. Whether it's licensed through him or whether it's a general contractor doing it under his license. MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, the reason why I'm questioning is Mr. Pedone said that the drywailers are doing it all wrong. MR. PEDONE: No, I didn't say that. MR. NONNENMACHER.' And I'm trying to find out -- MR. PEDONE.' I didn't say that -- MR. REYNOLDS: That's why -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: One at a time. MR. PEDONE.' I did not say that. I said that some are not doing it properly. There are some who do it great. Wall Systems Page 39 December 13, 2000 do it. I've seen their work so many times, never a problem. I haven't -- Upright Drywall is another one. They do it, they do it right. But there are some who are not doing it right. And there's no way of testing them or making sure that they have been instructed in how to do it properly. I think the fire department should do something, not just North Naples, but all of them. Because we have such a difference from North Naples to East Naples. You say about an unrated deck. Well, in East Naples, I don't care what it is, it's a metal roof on a metal building and if the drywalling is going up to that roof and it's a rated wall, a one or two-hour wall, we spray it. So, you know, we have no consistency between the different districts. Maybe we can get them together and say this is how we want it done, this is the seminar, now we're going to give you a little card that's going to say you've been certified this year on fire-stopping. MR. NONNENMACHER: And then would you agree that drywailers would be qualified to do that? MR. PEDONE: Yes, I would. I would. If I may, fire-stopping is not my main business. It used to be. I would say it only comprises of maybe 25 percent of my business. 75 percent of my business is spray fireproofing. Luckily drywailers aren't doing that yet. So -- but, you know, so I'm not trying to be a glutton for the work. I've got more work than I can handle. And I can see in some instances where it's a heck of a lot easier. You're up 35 feet on a scissor lift. It's a lot easier for him to do the header wall joint because he's up there anyway. But there's so many of them that do not do it right, that just don't -- they don't know. Not in your district. East Naples. Horseshoe, around the corner from the county Development Services, a building there. I watched them put up a wall and then turn around and put the caulking on a two-hour deck and a two-hour wall. And it was so bad, it -- it was laughable. But yet they passed. Because whoever inspected it did not know. We got one yesterday where the drywall was going up to the fiberglass insulation with the plastic on it, the vinyl. And the fire inspector there, again East Naples, had said that oh, you don't have to cut back the fiberglass, you can leave it and just spray onto the vinyl. Now, what happens when the vinyl burns? It's a Page 40 December t 3, 2000 useless joint. Another one was a four-hour wall that the architect made a mistake and he didn't go up through the roof at 18 inches. He ended on the bottom of a wooden roof. And they wanted a four-hour penetration on a wood roof and a block wall. MR. REYNOLDS: In Bonita. MR. PEDONE: In Bonita. MR. REYNOLDS: Lee County. MR. PEDONE: And you could not do it. You could not -- and no matter how much you tried to show this fire inspector the proper way that it could be done, never a four-hour wall to get a little bit of protection, he kept turning it down. He wanted one system only, and that system gave him zero, but yet he was happy. There's no consistency whatever. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Appreciate it, Mr. Pedone. Any other input from the public? Any recommendations or thoughts from the committee? MR. CRAWFORD: I would like to make a motion that we add fire-stopping and fire-sating incidental to the associated work to the drywall contractor category. MR. PEDONE.' Excuse me, Mike Pedone again. Fire-stopping is penetration fire barrier for PVC piping, cast iron, aluminum, EMT, sprinkler pipe, you name it. There's a big difference between fire-sating and fire-stopping. Now, if you want the drywall contractor to start doing collars -- I mean, where are we going here? Let's give it to everybody else. CHAIRMAN HAYES: What we want to do is have the drywailers continue to do what they've been doing -- MR. PEDONE: That's head of wall joints. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- and that is -- Mr. Benton, what would you define that, fire-stopping, fire-sating, all of the above? MR. BENTON: By definition I would -- it would really just be a smoke barrier. MR. REYNOLDS: It's a fire-rated barrier. MR. BENTON: It's not going to stop it, it's just controlling it for a time period. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So if we use the words fire-rated barriers -- MR. CRAWFORD: Hold on. I thought, Mr. Benton, that you explained to me that you do seal pipes and penetrations within Page 41 December 13, 2000 the wall, which I understand that to be fire-stopping. MR. BENTON: Again, this is coming down to just putting the ring of caulk around it. When I came to the PVC piping and such like that, I said that's what needs the collar, AC ducts and things like that. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Pedone, a collar means fire-stopping. MR. PEDONE: Actually, it's penetration fire barrier. MR. CRAWFORD: Penetration fire barrier. MR. PEDONE: Whereas, the head of the wall, there's no penetration. It's continuation of your fire-rated safety. Once you've penetrated that fire wall, you need penetration fire barrier. MR. CRAWFORD.' You're comfortable with the -- MR. PEDONE: I'm only comfortable with the phrase fire-safing. Because that can give them the right to do fire-sating at the head of a wall joint or curtain wall. MR. REYNOLDS: Yes, expansion joints in the wall. CHAIRMAN HAYES: If a pipe or conduit goes through the same wall -- MR. PEDONE: That's penetration. He should not be allowed to do that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And you do that on a regular basis? MR. CRAWFORD: I disagree with Mr. Pedone, respectfully. And I have a lot of respect for Mr. Pedone with fire-stopping. We work with him on many occasions. But I -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, still yet, remember one at a time. It is very, very complicated for our court reporter to get this down, and we definitely want this down on the record. So if you want to continue -- MR. CRAWFORD: My motion is as I stated it. I would like to add a phrasing fire-stopping and fire-sating to the drywalling contractor category, incidental to drywall work. MR. PEDONE: If it's incidental to drywall work, that's every bit of penetration fire barrier that goes on, except what may go through a concrete floor. Again, they are not -- we gave a specific license for a specific trade, a category license to be in. Now we're going to give it to drywall. So maybe next month or next year, maybe the concrete guy will come in who pours concrete, and he'll say hey, I've got a pipe going through my concrete, shouldn't I be able to Page 42 December 13, 2000 do that? MR. CRAWFORD: Mike, who's going to do it? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mike, I think we understand. MR. PEDONE: The fire barrier contractor. There are five of us, you say. I have 18 people working. You think 18 people can't handle the number we get? TTI out on -- I think they're more or less cut back quite a bit. But you've got Fire Containment Systems, you've got Fire Barrier Systems, Rice, West Coast is now doing it. And then Fire Stop Systems. And we haven't had any problem keeping up now. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Pedone, I think in a future workshop we can address the specific inclusion or exclusion of a fire-sating license with some proper wordage and definition, as you stated earlier, having your own specific licensing category, at another workshop. I think at this point we're trying to get past the technical enforcement issue. MR. PEDONE: I think what you're doing is making my license useless. I don't need a license then. I mean, why did I bother with it if you're going to give it to everyone else? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I disagree. Otherwise, to do it any other way, you have to get a drywaller's license, a plumber's license, electricJan's license, so that you could do it integral with their work. I think you've got the ability to do everybody's all the time. But what we're trying to do is specifically allow those integral to the work that they're doing to cover their own work. MR. PEDONE: Fine. Whatever you guys say. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Crawford, you made a motion. MR. CRAWFORD: I have. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Does anybody want to second that motion? I'll second that motion, for furtherance of discussion. Mr. Neale, you were about to speak on that? MR. NEALE: I don't think so. The only issue is probably better addressed afterwards is what about the other trades, electrical, mechanical and plumbing, as far as what they do, and that's -- let's -- I would suggest that the board dispose of this motion first and -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: That was why I went ahead and seconded it. I'm considering the possibility of modifying that motion to include all specific trades, not just under the drywall Page 43 December 13, 2000 license. MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, we have a motion and second. MR. SCHOENFUSS: Has it been amended? CHAIRMAN HAYES: No, sir. And we'll call for the vote. All in favor -- MR. CRAWFORD: Discussion. Should we not amend it to -- MS. WHITE: Is it amended? CHAIRMAN HAYES: What I was trying to do was dispose of the motion and make a new motion. MR. CRAWFORD: Well, I would like to rephrase my motion. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. CRAWFORD: And I would like to add fire-stopping and fire-safing to the drywall contractor license to -- we're going to have to clarify this a little bit -- to the mechanical contractor license, to the plumbing license, to the electrical contractor license, to include fire-stopping and fire-sating as is incidental to that scope of work. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, my only concern to that -- MR. NEALE: Well, there's an amendment to the motion. Does the person who seconded it want to -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, I'll second that. And then we'll continue with discussion. My only concern is that we left out some trades. Mr. Pedone? MR. PEDONE: Yeah, I have one question on that motion, and that -- that they can subcontract that work for another drywall contractor? Or the plumber can subcontract the penetration work? Can South Florida plumbing contractor from Acres Plumbing (phonetic) to do the penetrations, or is it only to their particular job that they are on? CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think that's the intent, Mr. Pedone. MR. PEDONE: All right, I'd like to have that in -- MR. PERICO: Incident to their -- MR. PEDONE: Well, it said incidental to their scope of work. It didn't say to that particular job. There's a difference. Scope of work is drywall. So any -- he can do it for any other drywalling contractor. Whereas, if he's doing it for himself on his own job, it's a big difference. MR. CRAWFORD: I would agree with that, and I would Page 44 December 13, 2000 amend the motion to state scope of work on the project. CHAIRMAN HAYES: And I'll second that amendment. Mr. Neale, you were trying to talk again? MR. NEALE: No. Trying to keep up. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other discussion on the issue? MR. SCHOENFUSS: On that motion, I gather that Mr. Pedone may be slightly opposed to it. How does Mr. Reynolds feel? Do you agree with it, Carl? MR. REYNOLDS: Like I said, since 1985 when 3M hit this area and fire-stopping's been being done, the plumbers have been doing it, the electricians been doing it, AC people's been doing it, and drywall's been taking care of their own forever. It wasn't specific that it had to be a licensed contractor always. That wasn't always looked at. It was that the work was being installed the way it was supposed to be installed. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you. Any other discussion? I'm going to call for the vote. All in favor? Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well. I think what we're going to do at this point, our intention is to include that integral to whatever people penetrate it. Mr. Neale -- I believe that's what your intent is, Mr. Crawford, that we're going to have to research the ordinance -- MR. NEALE: We may have to look at air conditioning and a couple -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I'm saying air conditioning, I've got irrigation sprinklers, you know, liquid petroleum gas penetrations. Of course if that's a gas line there's probably more included than fire penetration anyway. MR. BENTON: You have framers also, where they have a webbing or such like that through the trusses that's now needed in the code. You have your -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good point. MR. BENTON: -- one-bys that are running through the firewalls. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good point. And in a case like that, too, Mr. Pedone, getting back to your point. In a case like that, too, where there are two joints that need fire-sating because the webbing of a framing contractor goes through it, it is really -- Page 45 December 13, 2000 would be tough for him not to be able to do it, to have to stop this work and call a subcontractor such as yourself for two joints. You probably wouldn't even consider going over there and doing it, as busy as you are. MR. PEDONE: That's true. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. PEDONE: All I'm interested in is that they're doing it for their own work and not subcontracting it for another contractor. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right, excellent. Mr. Reynolds? MR. REYNOLDS: One statement was the wood's not supposed to pass through the firewall, period, okay? So when that's occurring, there's other things that come into play here. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anyway. MR. REYNOLDS: And talking about the engineers to do their job correctly and we try to get them to change those items further down the line, but it happens. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Mr. Zachary, you and Mr. Neale understand the direction, intent? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN HAYES: You feel you're going to be able to smith some words? MR. ZACHARY: Perhaps. Mr. Neale is shaking his head here on all the categories. MR. NEALE: We'll report back on this one. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. And I would also expect, Mr. Pedone, that down the road we probably need to put together some studying efforts on isolating that license, because I can't disagree that in the respect of fire-sating as respect to life safety issues that it warrants some individual study. I agree with that. Okay, I do once again appreciate all associated contractors and individuals that supplied some input for this. I hope that we made sense in our process to you and that you understand that this is one of any time that there is an ordinance amendment timetable, that we can conduct workshops like this in the future. And hopefully this will encourage that to continue. You're welcome to stay, if you wish, and listen to the rest of our wonderful discussions, or you can leave. I'd like to move on at this point with sealing and stopping. THE COURT REPORTER: Could we just take a few minute Page 46 December 13, 2000 break? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah, why don't we take a break. It's 20 minutes till. 10 minutes? Excellent. (Recess.) CHAIRMAN HAYES: We call this meeting back to order. All right, the next issue is the sealing and stripping -- MR. BALZANO: Striping, not stripping. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Oh, okay. MR. SCHOENFUSS: They keep spelling it wrong. MR. NEALE: You can ask Mr. Zachary, he's worked on the adult entertainment ordinance, and stripping is not loud in Collier County. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, we are back in order and it's one at a time speaking, and it's sealing and striping. Okay. And the question at hand is that at what point do we call a patch construction? I think at our last meeting we discussed the issue to include minor patching. But then we were concerned that that was easily abused if we didn't define some limits to minor patching. Mr. Neale, do you have any other -- any input on that? MR. NEALE: No. We had some suggestions. They were sort of all over the place as far as volume goes. We had someone say 1,000 square feet, we had someone else say 10 percent, we had someone else say up to a ton of patching material. MR. ZACHARY: It's an and/or-- MR. NEALE: Yeah, no mechanized equipment. But then someone brought up the fact that you need a mechanized tamperer, small patch. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, so we're looking to add minor patching, but we definitely need some description and definition MR. NEALE: On what a minor patch it. CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- of what a minor patching is. We have Kathy Bailey here, Bonness. MS. BAILEY: Kathy Bailey, Bonness, Incorporated. I don't really know the history of why you're considering this right now, whether it was an enforcement issue or what. MR. CRAWFORD: I think the history was we have sealing contractors that go in and seal the parking lot and run across small potholes. Page 47 December 13, 2000 MR. NONNENMACHER: If I may, what brought this up was a gentleman came in and wanted a restricted paving license restricted to patching only. The county has issued one of those so far, and this was a second request to do that. And we brought forth to the board on the sealing and striping, rather than give out restricted licenses, that they be able to patch cracks and minor holes incidental to their sealing. MS. BAILEY: Okay, I would have to agree that it would be most likely that they should be able to do that. You wouldn't want to have to stop your sealing and hire a paving contractor to come in and do a patch of a pothole. Although I think there has to be language that really does limit this to the repair of potholes, of oil damaged asphalt, of broken edges and that sort of thing. And when you talk about mechanical, you are going to need to use mechanical machines, tampering machine or a roller, to -- even in a patch circumstance. What you're not going to want to let them use is mechanical spreading machines or mechanical paver. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So if we left it -- if we restricted it to less than 100 square feet or 50 square feet -- MS. BAILEY: That's difficult to do -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- per patch. MS. BAILEY: -- because you might run into a parking lot where every other parking space is oil damaged. And that square footage is going to add up quickly. I don't want to advocate them coming in and doing an awful lot of asphalt, but it's really difficult to put a square footage that's going to work in every instance. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, but if we say 10 square feet per patch and there's a whole parking lot full of oil stains, each one of those would take so much patching. And if it became anec -- or smarter business to say look, we need to reroll that whole section, then we're talking about a patch being larger than 10 square feet, and that would eliminate their ability to do that. MR. NEALE: Let me just throw something out to see if -- if we added to the sealing and striping license language that essentially said that any of those who were qualified with experience to seal and stripe driveways, parking lots, sidewalks and patios, and who may perform asphalt repairs of potholes, oil Page 48 December 13, 2000 damaged asphalt, edge erosion and cracks that do not involve the use of a mechanized asphalt spreader, would that cover it from your point of view? MS. BAILEY: Well, not completely. I think you're still going to have to limit it. I mean, you can pave an entire parking lot by hand. I think you're still going to have to limit it to the size somehow. And although -- and I admit it's difficult to come up with a square footage or even a percentage, I think the percentage would probably be a better method. It's still very difficult to put -- to quantify it in those terms. MR. NEALE: I think we just reserve the two, repair the potholes, edge erosion and cracks, does that -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Not to exceed -- MR. NEALE: Not to exceed 20 percent of the total area of the parking area or something like that? MS. BAILEY: But you could argue if you were in the sealing business and you wanted to actually pave a parking lot, that this whole -- it's one big patch, you know. Because we do come across the parking lots that the whole parking lot is such that you've just described. So we don't want them to be able to overlay without having the proper license to do it. The other reason that we might perform a patch is to correct a drainage problem. I don't know that we want to get our sealing contractors in to correct drainage problems. I don't believe that that's proper. MR. NEALE: Engineering and things like that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Once again, when you say basically what you had described there, Mr. Neale, but added the words up to 20 square feet per patch, would that stop it? I mean, if somebody wanted to decide, well, that's not practical to do all these little patches, we need to roll this whole section, that would stop it, basically, because it's 20 square feet per patch, it's exceeded that. MR. BALZANO: That's a big hole. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, it's 10 foot square. MR. BALZANO: It's 100 foot, though. 10 by 10 or something MR. NONNENMACHER: MS. BAILEY: 20 by-- MS. WHITE: Two by 10. Two by 10. Page 49 December 13, 2000 MR. CRAWFORD: Four by five. CHAIRMAN HAYES: 20 by-- MS. BAILEY: Two by 10. Three by three is actually your typical oil damage type patch. MS. PAHL: Three by three -- MS. BAILEY: Yeah. MS. PAHL: -- is that what you're saying? MS. BAILEY: Yeah. I mean, that's normally what you cut out, maybe three -- four by three. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So not to exceed 10 square feet? MR. NEALE: Well, or maybe -- she said four by three, so I think 20 square foot -- MS. BAILEY: 20. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, 20 square foot? MS. BAILEY: Yeah, I think would probably be reasonable. I don't know that -- you might want to consider also limiting it to the aggregate parking lot, too. MR. NEALE: Well, that's what I was thinking, is not to exceed 20 square feet per patch or an aggregate total of 20 percent of the total parking lot area. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Now, that's not -- no, that won't get it either, because you got Wal-Mart and Sam's parking lot that are humongous, and 20 square feet of that is -- MR. NEALE: 20 percent is -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- huge. MS. BAILEY: Well, with a maximum limit, I mean, say 20 square foot patch with a maximum amount of patching that's not going to exceed 10 percent of the aggregate, or what have you. Like I say, it's really difficult to even come up with a percentage of what you're normally allowed to do. But, you know, I think the intent is just to allow them to take care of patch holes and repairs that are necessary, without having them take the proper license test. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's what I say. I think if you said the words up to 20 square feet per patch, period. It doesn't matter if it's a small driveway or large driveway, you don't want to get a machine in there for 20 square feet per patch. Anybody have any other thoughts on this? MR. BALZANO: I just have one question. Your company is huge. You wouldn't even be interested in going in to do work like Page 50 December 13, 2000 that, so it isn't something to be taken out of -- MS. BAILEY: Oh, we do patching. We're a full service company. MR. BALZANO: But I mean -- MS. BAILEY: We do patching, we do sealing. MR. BALZANO: I know you do, but-- MS. BAILEY: We do the whole gamut. MR. BALZANO: But you wouldn't send a big crew in and go in and fill a couple of holes -- MS. BAILEY: No, we'd just send a couple of men. MR. BALZANO: So you don't have a problem with that. MS. BAILEY: I really don't have a problem. I have a problem with people misinterpreting the patch and seal license where they're going in and doing parking lots. We see that quite a bit already, where the sealing companies are doing entire parking lots. MR. BALZANO: Us as enforcement to the ordinance, that's what we have a problem with. Because a lot of these people read what they want to read, and the next thing we know we've got a guy in there resurfacing Wal-Mart with a patching license. And he said well, you said I could patch. But he might have put in 3,000 patches. And I agree with you, it has to be limited to what he's doing. MR. NONNENMACHER'. That's the main reason why we don't want to issue a restricted -- any more restricted license, patching only. We don't want the sealing contractors to contract to go out and patch, okay? The only time a sealing contractor would be able to patch is incidental to his own sealing work. In other words, he couldn't just go out to a job and contract to patch. You'd have to contract to seal and then as he's sealing, anything that comes up, he would be able to patch to continue his job. MS. BAILEY: Well, that night just take care of it himself. You really can't seal fresh asphalt. If you know what you're doing you don't seal fresh asphalt. So if they're sealing the entire parking lot and patching and sealing, they're not going to want to overlay the entire parking lot and not seal it. So that might take care of it in itself. CHAIRMAN HAYES: So Mr. Neale, adding those words -- MR. NEALE: Incidental to -- Page 51 December 13, 2000 CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- incidental to the patch -- or to the sealing, then that would probably -- and we left it at 20 square feet per patch, incidental to the sealing process, then it would eliminate exactly what you're saying. MR. NONNENMACHER: Right. And that contractor could not go out and contract to patch up a parking lot. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Exactly. MR. NEALE: You could put that in the license category, that this is not permitted -- contractor under this category licensed to contract for patching as an activity, or something like that. MS. BAILEY: Okay. From a paving contractor's standpoint, I would agree with that. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That makes sense? MS. BAILEY: That makes a lot of sense. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anybody got any comments on the board? Anybody interested in making a motion? Thank you, Ms. Bailey. MR. NEALE: Other than adjournment? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I think we need to make a motion to adopt those wordage. MR. LAIRD: I'll make that motion. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. All right, I have a motion to adopt the words that Mr. Neale has -- MR. LAIRD: Maybe we should hear them again. MR. NEALE: Yeah, what we would do is amend it to address the fact that contractor under the sealing and striping license could perform asphalt patching incidental to sealing -- to a sealing and striping contract up to 20 square feet per patch, and up to 20 percent of the aggregate area of the parking lot in a manner that does not use a mechanical asphalt spreader. That language needs to be buffed up from there, but that's -- MR. SCHOENFUSS: I thought we deleted that 20 percent. MS. PAHL: Yeah, I thought we did, too. MR. NEALE: Drop the 20 percent? MR. SCHOENFUSS: Yes. MR, NEALE: Okay, 20 square feet per patch. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. MR. LAIRD: Fine, I will make that -- so moved. CHAIRMAN HAYES: We have a motion to approve this wordage. Page 52 December 13, 2000 MR. SCHOENFUSS: Second. MS. PAHL: I'll second the motion. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a second. Any further discussion? MR. CRAWFORD: Is spreader the right word? Does that cover everything? MS. BAILEY: Asphalt paver is what spreads the asphalt. If you wanted to -- MR. NEAL. E: The big thing with smoke coming out of it? MS. BAILEY: Not my paver. MR. NEALE: Trying to take it down to the simplest possible for my own edification. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Neale, the thing with smoke coming out of it is for hot mopping the roof. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's what I was going to tell him. That's the roofing category. MR. NEALE: That's why I'm the lawyer and you guys are the contractors. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? Call for the vote. All in favor? Opposed? (No response) CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well, that concludes our specific discussion. I'm going to open it up. Is there any other discussion that we need to -- on the ordinances while we hear our final, hopefully, workshop for this amendment cycle? MR. BARTOE: I think we need to give get Mr. Zachary and Mr. Neale together to come up with a draft and get it to staff, and we will make copies and get it around for our next meeting, which is January 24th. And I believe that's the fourth Wednesday, instead of the third Wednesday. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Along that line, thank you, Mr. Bartoe. Mr. Zachary, you being sitting here right with us, you know the understanding, the general consensus, the feeling along with the specific words. What I would hope then that between Mr. Neale and yourself, that you would be able to wordsmith some wordage that would both reflect what our discussions were here today, as well as the county attorney's general impression, since you are with that office. Page 53 December 13, 2000 MR. ZACHARY'. Right, that's what I plan to do. Mr. Neale and I will get together. We may need to work till January 24th on that fire-stopping business. But that sounds like the best plan is to get something to staff before then, to get comments, because I think we -- if we overlooked anything, we will have -- MR. NEALE: I'm looking through my notes from the October meeting. There's a whole lot of other minor changes that we were going to put in, things that I just want to make sure I'm heading in the right direction of the board. Under the Marciting category, it doesn't allow that person to empty a pool. And I think the board agreed that if you're going to Marcite a pool, you have to take the water out of it first. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. Okay. MR. BALZANO: Pat, the only problem with that is if that pool is not emptied out right at the right time of the year, you have a vessel on top of your lawn. And a lot of times a pool contractor that constructs pools will go and set it up to drain it and then he'll sub out the Marciting or the pebble creek to someone else. MR. NEALE: Well, we'll put it in a proposal and see what -- MR. BALZANO: I've seen a couple of them like that. MR. NEALE: We've of course got the infamous pavers, where they go and what a landscaper can do. Structural metal framing, we'll have structural wood and metal and metal nonstructural in it. The -- one of the categories -- I'm giving the board the right citations here. Landscaping contractor, as far as fountains goes, the board directed to make sure that it's clear that it's prepackaged fountains only, not constructed in place fountains, to avoid conflict with wood and masonry. And under non-recreational pond and waterfall contractor, the connections to sanitary sewer system, potable water lines or any electrical installation, we're going to add that those tasks must be performed by tradesmen licensed in relevant trades. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I guess it's obvious we've done a considerable amount of work on this ordinance amendment. MR. ZACHARY: Tile and marble. MR. NEALE: Yeah, stone was going to be added to tile and marble so that they can -- since there's so much stone being done now. Then we've also got some basic amendments that are Page 54 December 13, 2000 imposed on this by the changes of 489 this year, as far as descriptions of the scope of work for swimming pool contractors, things like that. There was an -- one point I wish I would like to get the direction of the board is under exemptions for contracting for requiring a license. There is an exemption added to 489 for Habitat for Humanity homes, where we exempt certain categories of construction for requiring licensed contractors to be doing them. And the legislature added exempting under 1.3 of your ordinance there's the exemptions, owner builders, public works, owners holding current state certified certificates. The state had added an exemption for Habitat for Humanity. However, it said that it must obtain local building code inspections. I don't know if the board wants to look at that or not. That's just something I was throwing out. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Neale, under owner builder exemptions, were we going to add commercial exempt up to $25,000 to coincide with 489? MR. NEALE: We were -- yes, I had that in my notes also. We were going to add commercial owner builder exemption up to $25,000, and to note that the owner builder may not be a corporation. It must be an individual. And that's in 489.103-7, as interpreted by the Attorney General in 1991. CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's what we're trying to do is standardize somewhat with the state statute. MR. NEALE: Right. So we will add the change that the owner builder must be an individual, it may not be a corporation. And part of the reason for that is to make it consistent with language that the owner builder must apply -- must -- to qualify the exemption, an owner must personally appear and sign the building permit application. That was the interpretation of the Attorney General. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Perico, is there any issues regarding licensing that we have failed to address on your ali's behalf? MR. PERICO: No, I think we've got it pretty well covered, Gary. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think we did, too. I just wanted a final word, in case we did miss anything. MR. BALZANO: One thing. I think the new chief should get the director a name tag. Page 55 December 13, 2000 MR. NONNENMACHER: Ex chief, he means. Because the name tag isn't there. CHAIRMAN HAYES: He needs more job description. I want to think ASCF really for their participation. I think everybody in here was impressed with the turnout. By and large that turnout was a result of communications of contacts with members of ASCF gathering. For anybody who doesn't know, we have the president and executive director of ACSF in here with us today. And thanks, it was a big help. You know, the whole idea of the public being responsible, what is it, the laws by the people for the people? This is the whole idea. And we exemplified that today. And I think that when we're finished with our amendments, that we can't be accused of making the rules without consulting the public. And I think that's a big step forward. MR. LAIRD: Mr. Chairman, I was very impressed seeing the ladies. And I did not know their positions, but they're very attractive ladies. Come all the time. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other discussion? I need a motion to adjourn. MR. LAIRD: So moved, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Let's do it. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11:18 a.m. CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD GARY HAYES, CHAIRMAN TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC., BY CHERIE' R. LEONE, RPR Page 56